Mark Maynard | 2016 | March

Exploring Black Nirvana, going inside the EMU “no confidence” vote, and the likelihood that we’ll see other Flints in the future… on episode 40 of the Saturday Six Pack

By Mark | March 11, 2016

I’m still playing catch-up, trying to get the most recent episodes of the Saturday Six Pack posted here. I’m sorry that it’s been taking me so long… The episode I’m posting here tonight was our 40th, and it was great… There was something for everyone; political intrigue, grassroots activism, science in the public interest, societal change through rap… Seriously, I don’t know if we’ve ever had such a well-rounded show. If you get a chance, check it out.

During episode 40… We talked with hip-hop artist Jamall Bufford about his work to inspire “social regeneration” through the medium of rap. We called Lee Anne Walters of Flint and asked her about her recent testimony in front of Congress. We learned about ongoing efforts to weaken clean drink water regulations from Virginia Tech’s Yanna Lambrinidou. And we spoke with Eastern Michigan University faculty members Judith Kullberg and Howard Bunsis about their recent vote of “no confidence” in their Board of Regents, and what might come next.

[If you would like to listen to episode 40 of The Saturday Six Pack, you can either download it from iTunes or scroll the bottom of the page, where you’ll find the Soundcloud file embedded.]

HIP HOP ARTIST JAMALL BUFFORD OFFERS A GLIMPSE OF BLACK NIRVANA

We started the show with Jamall Bufford, who first started making a name for himself in the rap world about a decade ago as Buff1, a member of Ann Arbor’s Athletic Mic League. We talked about the scene at Pioneer High School at the time, how the members of his crew first came together, and how their earliest beats had been made on tape decks and engineering software that wasn’t meant for such things. I tried to get him to talk about how easy kids had it today in comparison, but he wouldn’t take the bait. Bufford said he thought it was awesome that young people today, like those that he works with on a daily basis at the Neutral Zone, have ready access not just to software and studios, but a supportive community.

Most of our discussion centered around the work Bufford has been doing with collaborators over the past five years as The Black Opera, and their most recent endeavor, a theatrical performance called Black Nirvana, which they hope to roll out next fall. This new piece, which will incorporate rap, film, science fiction and any number of other elements, will center around a young man, Bufford tells us, who creates a world of his own within and abandoned house in Detroit. He’s a high school aged kid, Bufford says, who’s kind of an outcast. He likes art, music and reading. He’s a collector. He creates a sanctuary of sorts, but everything begins to implode for him when his younger brother, who had chosen to take a more dangerous path through life, is killed there. The house is firebombed, Bufford tells us, sending the protagonist on a soul-searching journey through time. [There’s a time portal involved.]

Bufford and I talked about how The Black Opera collective came together – how it arose from a desire on the part of several local rappers to get beyond the idea that rap, in order to be considered both good and authentic, has to be about real, personal experience. He and others, he tells me, wanted to create personas and write from the perspective of other people. So they created The Black Opera as a vehicle through which they could anonymously explore. [Up until about a year ago, he and his collaborators didn’t publicly identify themselves as members.] The experience, he told us, was liberating. The Black Opera, he says, allows him to get beyond his own, narrow point of view, and talk more broadly about subjects that are more global in nature.

“I love growth,” Bufford says when asked why he keeps pushing in new directions, incorporating film and drama, working with new collaborators, etc.

We talk about his coming here as a kid from Atlanta and his experience growing up black in Ann Arbor. We talk about how he got started, first learning the words of other rap songs to impress his friends, and then eventually coming to know his own voice as an artist from Ann Arbor. [He said he always loved music, but couldn’t play an instrument, and couldn’t really sing, so he gravitated to rap.] He realized at some point, he said, “I don’t have to claim Detroit… This is who I am.”

And we talked about what he wants to accomplish with his music. He says he wants to provoke with his art, and cause something to happen. He says that, through his solo work, and the work of The Black Opera, he wants to engage with people and inspire them to create positive societal change. [Although he says he’s somewhat apolitical, Bufford has described his work in the past as, “a weapon for socioeconomic unity.”]

Bufford, who just recently won a grant from the Ann Arbor Awesome Foundation to help construct the set for Black Nirvana, hopes to eventually take the production across the United States and to Europe, where The Black Opra has toured twice before. This time, he tells us, they’d like to stay longer in the towns that they visit and engage with the young people there, working with them on their writing and performing.

LEE ANNE WALTERS ON REPRESENTING THE PEOPLE OF FLINT BEFORE CONGRESS

At the 45 minute mark, I called Flint water activist Lee Anne Walters, who we’ve talked with on the show before, and asked her what it was like to testify before Congress… Her impression, she says, based on what she was told, was that real action would be taken this time. But, as she told us, people thought the same thing back in 2004, after the lead poisoning epidemic in Washington, DC. With that said, though, Walters told us that she has already seem some evidence of progress. For instance, she told us that when she shared with the EPA’s new Deputy Assistant Administrator for the Office of Water, Joel Beauvais, that, even now, the people in Flint were using the wrong kind of bottles to collect water samples, leading to unreliable lead readings, he made sure the problem was addressed within 48 hours. [Beauvais, Walters also said, gave her the most heartfelt apology of anyone in government since all of this first began for her and her family.]

We also talked about how things have changed in Flint since the story went national a few months ago now. According to Walters, who has a son that’s been diagnosed with lead poisoning an anemia as a result of drinking the water, as of yet no one from either the city or the state has reached out with information as to what she can do as a parent to help her son. No one has come forward with the offer of resources, let alone things like food and vitamins that may help in his treatment, she says.

Walters and I also discuss how little credibility our state and local leaders now have in Flint. It will take a very long time, she says, for the parties involved to regain the trust of the people in Flint. According to Walters, unless you’re from Virginia Tech, the people of Flint aren’t inclined to believe anything you say. [It’s Virginia Tech researchers that came to Flint and worked with the citizens to document the problem, raise awareness, and fight for action.]

This, in case you’re interested to know what I look like when I talk with people over the phone, is me talking with Walters…

YANNA LAMBRINIDOU ON THE CONTINUED THREAT OF LEAD IN OUR WATER

Then, at the 1:08 mark, I called activist and educator Yanna Lambrinidou, who is one of those awesome people from Virginia Tech that Walters alluded to above. Lambrinidou and I discussed the history of the EPA’s Lead and Copper Rule, and how, since it was first passed in 1991, it’s been systematically weakened by water utilities. We talked about both political forces and industry pressure, and how, over the past 25 years, they’ve been working together against our best interests. [Water utilities, says Lambrinidou, have been collectively pushing for lower standards since the law first passed, and they’ve been successful.]

And we talked about the importance of an engaged citizenry. As Lambrinidou reminded us, it wasn’t a so-called expert who discovered that Flint wasn’t treating their water. It was Lee Anne Walters. This demonstrates, she says, why it is that we can’t leave it to the professionals, who often have conflicts of interest. People have to be a part of entire process, Lambrinidou says. And that’s why she’s building a coalition, along with the help of Walters, that can push public awareness and demand action. The EPA will only act in a significant way, she says, “when the peaple say ‘enough is enough’.”

We also discussed the underfunding of our environmental agencies, like the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality and the EPA, and the fact that Republicans, who cut their funding for years, are now looking to place the blame for what happened in Flint at their feet.

What we saw in Flint, and DC before that, says Lambrinidou, is going to happen in other towns around the United States. In fact, she says, it already is. “What’s happening in Flint is happening elsewhere,” she says. There are 10 million lead service lines in this country that lead into people’s homes, and no enforceable standards, she says. And, she adds, even treated water leaches lead from pipes.

EASTERN MICHIGAN UNIVERSITY FACULTY DECLARE “NO CONFIDENCE” IN REGENTS

Then, as 1:26, after an instrumental number by our friend Pete Larson in Kenya, we were joined by Eastern Michigan University faculty leaders Judith Kullberg and Howard Bunsis for a rousing discussion on the increasingly tense relationship between those doing the work of educating students on campus and the Regents who oversee the business operations. I’d intended to talk mainly about the “no confidence” measure that the faculty had just passed, but, as luck would have it, the day before the show, EMU’s regents announced that they’d hired a new President. So, much of our time was spent discussing their new boss, Jim Smith.

Kullberg [pictured above] said she’d just met Smith briefly, but was “favorably impressed.” [She had been expecting, she said, that the Regents would hire a politician or business person to run the university, so I imagine that a good deal of her favorable impression can be attributed to the fact that Smith is at least an academic.] Bunsis was decidedly less enthusiastic. “I don’t get how an academic would take a job with a secret search,” he said, referring to the fact that the new President had taken the position having only met the Regents, and not anyone on the faculty. [EMU’s regents have defended their decision to have a secret search, saying that it would yield better candidates.] Bunsis said that, given the Smith was coming from a very small university in South Dakota, with very little diversity, no PhD program, and no unions, there were quite a few questions that he ands fellow faculty members would have liked to have asked during the hiring process.

And we did talk quite a bit about the “no confidence” vote, which came about after faculty in EMU’s education department delivered a detailed analysis of the State’s Educational Achievement Authority (EAA) program for the Regents, only to have their findings ignored… The EAA, as you’ll recall, is an initiative created by Governor Snyder, through which many of Detroit’s public schools had been taken over by the state. Eastern Michigan University, thanks in part to the fact that a majority of its Regents were appointed by Snyder, had agreed to be the educational institution that would make the whole thing possible. The Regents had assured faculty that the relationship would only exist so long as it was beneficial to the students of Detroit. When, however, EMU educators came forward with evidence that the program was failing, and student performance across EAA schools was actually dropping, the Regents failed to act and end the relationship. And that’s why the “no confidence” vote was taken. The EMU Regents, simply put, had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they existed only to further the political goals of Governor, and not to serve either the EMU community or the people of Michigan. “They helped destroy the reputation of Eastern Michigan,” said Bunsis.

We also talked quite a bit about EMU’s sending on sports. Looking at the budget, they said, it’s clear that, while athletics spending is going up, “the academic side is being starved.” For instance, while 20 faculty positions have been eliminated in recent years, they said, 8 new coaches have been hired. EMU, they told us, is now one of the top 20 schools of its size when it comes to athletic spending. [And it’s not translating to either wins or increased ticket sales.]

We talked about a lot of other things as well… like the passing of Antonin Scalia, and the impact his death would have on union-related cases currently in front of the Supreme Court, the possibility that EMU’s Regents might one day be elected instead of appointed, and the positive things that have happened as a result of these recent battles between faculty and regents at EMU. There’s a lot of unity on campus now, Xullberg says. People are making connections, and being pulled together. Everyone saw that the board was working on behalf of Lansing, and they knew what had to be done in order to save the institution, she said.

Thanks, as always, to AM 1700 for hosting the show, Kate de Fuccio for documenting everything with her camera, and Brian Robb for running the board, making sure the bills paid, and insuring that the toilet paper and bleach stays stocked. [All photos above come courtesy of Kate.]

If you like this episode, check out our archive of past shows at iTunes. And do please leave a review if you have the time, OK? It’s nice to know that people are listening, and, unless you call in, that’s pretty much the only way we know.

Now, if you haven’t already, please listen for yourself, and experience the magic firsthand.

[Episode 40 of the Saturday Six Pack was recorded live on Released 13 February, 2016, in historic downtown Ypsilanti, Michigan, in the studies of AM1700 Radio.]

Posted in Ann Arbor, Art and Culture, The Saturday Six Pack, Uncategorized, Ypsilanti | Tagged abandoned houses, Antonin Scalia, Athletic Mic League, Black Nirvana, Black Opera, Buff1, Congress, Detroit, EAA, Eastern Michigan University, Eastern Michigan University Board of Regents, Educational Achievement Authority, EMU, Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, Film, Flint, hip hop, Howard Bunsis, Jamall Bufford, Jm Smith, Joel Beauvais, Judith Kullberg, lead, Lead and Copper Rule, lead poisoning, Lee Anne Walters, no confidence, Pete Larson, rap, Rick Snyder, science fiction, South Dakota, water, Yanna Lambrinidou | 3 Comments

If the Republicans in the Senate are as concerned as they claim to be over the increasing extremism in their party, says Elizabeth Warren, it’s within their power to do something about it

By Mark | March 10, 2016

Elizabeth Warren delivered an incredible speech yesterday on the floor of the Senate directed at the Republicans in that body who, while publicly bemoaning the fact that an extremist like Trump or Cruz is likely to win the nomination of their party, have done little over the past seven years to stop it from happening. After noting both the ascendancy of Trump and Cruz, and the fact that Republicans in the Senate have indicated that they would not consider Obama’s nominee for the Supreme Court, Warren offered the following… “These are not two separate issues,” she said. “They are the same issue.” And truer words have never been spoken.

What we’re seeing play out in our current presidential campaign isn’t just happening in a vacuum, independent of other factors. It’s happening because the Republicans have allowed it to happen. It’s happening because, for the past seven years, they’ve challenged President Obama’s legitimacy, and neglected to do their jobs as outlined in the Constitution, choosing instead to obstruct him, our nation’s democratically elected leader, at every turn.

Saying, “If Republican Senators want to stand up to extremists running for president, they can start right now by standing up to extremists in the senate,” Warren asked her fellow Senators across the aisle to restore the rule of law within their chamber and begin considering the hundreds of Obama nominees that they have been blocking for these past several years. Until they acknowledge Obama’s presidency, and begin to fulfill their duties as outlined in the Constitution, Warren said, we’ll only see more extremism.

“The message could not be clearer,” Warren said. “No matter how much it damages the nation, no matter how much it undermines the courts, no matter whether it cripples the government, or lays waste to our Constitution, Senate Republicans do pretty much everything they can to avoid acknowledging the legitimacy of our democratically elected President. For too long the Republicans have wanted to have it both ways. They’ve wanted to feed the ugly lies and nullify the Obama presidency, while also claiming that they can govern responsibly. Well that game is over. Candidates motivated by bigotry and resentment, candidates unable to govern, candidates reflecting the same extremism that has been nursed along for seven years right here in the United States Senate, are on the verge of winning the Republican party’s nomination for President. And now Republican Senators must make a decision.”

These weren’t elections, she said, that were decided with recounts, and the interdiction of the Supreme Court. These were elections won by vast majorities. Extremists may not like it,” she said, “but Barack Obama won the presidency in 2008 by 9 million votes. (And) he won reelection in 2012 by 5 million votes…” And yet still, “Republican Senators have bowed to extremists who reject (Obama’s) legitimacy, and abuse the rules of the Senate in an all out effort to cripple his administration and to paralyze the federal courts.” And our nation is suffering as a result. Not only are critical positions left unfilled, but, through their actions, they are setting a tone that allows the likes of Trump and Cruz to keep advancing their far-right agendas.

Here, if you haven’t seen it yet, is the footage of Warren’s eight-minute speech. Please watch it and share it.

“So, if it is true that some Republican Senators are finally ready to stand up to the extremism that denies the legitimacy of this President, and of the Constitution, I say to you, ‘Do your job and vote for a Supreme Court nominee’… If you wan too stop extremism in your party, you can start by showing the American people that you respect the President of the United States and the Constitution enough to do your job right here in the United States Senate.” – Elizabeth Warren

Posted in Politics, Uncategorized | Tagged confirmation hearings, Donald Trump, Elizabeth Warren, extremism, Obama, racism, Republican obstructionism, right-wing extremism, Senate, Supreme Court, Supreme Court nominee, Ted Cruz, threats to Democracy | 11 Comments

Defying all expectations after being down 20 points in the polls, Bernie Sanders wins the Michigan Democratic primary

By Mark | March 8, 2016

Earlier today, the brilliant statisticians at FiveThirtyEight.com, looking at the results of 20 recent polls, reaffirmed their prediction that Hillary Clinton would, with 99% certainty, win the Michigan primary. [Just three days ago, Politico was projecting a 17-point victory for Clinton.] Well, that’s not what happened. Sanders was just declared winner, beating Clinton by 2 points. As for what this means, I’m not quite sure… Does it mark a turning point in the campaign? Does it prove that we’re undergoing a political sea change in this country? Will Sanders be able to carry the momentum into the next big contests? I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

As far as the biggest takeaway from today’s primary, it might be that Sanders is finally starting to get traction with black voters. “One thing helping Sanders tonight is a comparatively strong performance with African-American voters,” said FiveThirtyEight.com’s Nate Silver. “He’s losing them only 65 percent to 30 percent in Michigan, according to exit polls, which doesn’t sound great but is much better than in other states, where he’s lost them as badly as 91 percent to 6 percent.”

Speaking of Nate Silver, he also had this to say about tonight’s incredible upset.

[Silver explains what he thinks may have happened here.]

Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, I think, summed things up best. “If there was any doubt before tonight, there can be no longer,” he said. “Bernie Sanders is a movement, and that movement will not and cannot be stopped. Despite the Democratic National Committee, the big Democratic funders, the New York Times and Washington Post; despite the pollsters and pundits and the Washington insiders and political operatives — despite an establishment that doesn’t want to recognize what has happened to America and why this movement is essential to reclaiming our democracy and economy — Bernie will prevail and the political revolution will grow. Americans are joining up and joining together. Sooner or later – hopefully, sooner rather than later — we will succeed.”

In related news, our friend Steve Neavling is reporting that at least three precincts in Flint ran out of ballots today. Apparently the folks in charge didn’t realize that, when you poison people, they tend to want to vote.

Oh, and here’s the graphic from FiveThirtyEight.com showing the likelihood of a Clinton win in Michigan.

Posted in Michigan, Politics, Uncategorized | Tagged Bernie Sanders, Flint, Hillary Clinton, Nate Silver, polls, Presidential politics, revolution, Robert Reich, Steve Neavling, the black vote | 76 Comments

Maybe Donald Trump isn’t Hitler, but I think he’s got potential

By Mark | March 8, 2016

[The above public art piece showed up in Atlanta this past December, shortly after Trump called for a “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.”]

For the most part, I try not to suggest that anyone – even those whom I truly despise – are, “like Hitler.” As tempting as it might be to invoke the name of the fascist leader, it’s been my experience that it rarely goes well when such comparisons are made. When someone, for instance, says to a member of their local Historic District Commission, “Thanks a lot Hitler,” in response to being told that he can’t paint his house a certain shade of yellow, it’s rarely followed by the others present saying thoughtfully to one another, “You know, that guy has a really good point.” No, usually when you invoke the name of Hitler, it just ends up making you look like a dumbass who knows very little about history.

So, as a rule, whenever I feel myself tempted to make the analogy, I ask myself this simple question. “Did the person I’m about to compare to Hitler ever actually engage in genocide, or at least attempt it in some substantive way?” And, if the answer is no, I look for a more fitting analogy.

But when Donald Trump started to gain traction with Republican voters by employing authoritarian rhetoric and scapegoating minority groups, it got me wondering… Does someone actually have to engage in genocide to be “like Hitler”?

“Is it ever fitting,” I’ve begun to wonder, “to suggest that someone has the potential to become another Hitler?” And, if the answer is yes, but does is do more harm than good to make that comparison?

Up until now, I’ve fought the urge to compare Trump to Hitler… Sure, people are being roughed up at his rallies, and he’s talking about cracking down on free speech, and he’s spewing what could be deemed hate speech, referring to all undocumented Mexican workers in our country, for instance, as rapists and drug dealers, but, I tell myself, it’s likely just political theater, the work of a brilliant showman who knows, from years of working in the media, what it takes to get elected by the American voters of today, with their short attention spans and pathological need to be entertained. It’s all about ratings, I tell myself, and not about reality… The Trump campaign is to politics, I tell myself, what reality television is to actual reality. It’s a highly edited version of real life, projected onto a funhouse mirror for the purposes of amusement. It’s not something, in other words, to be taken seriously… And eventually, I thought, most people would figure that out.

But then Trump kept winning. And not just winning, but winning big.

The more fantastical his statements, the higher he’d surge in the ratings. He’d say that, if elected, he’d build us “the most beautiful wall (we’d) ever seen” across our southern border, and his poll numbers would jump. Then, a few days later, he’d tell us that it wouldn’t cost us a dime, as he’d force the Mexicans to pay for all 1,989 miles of it, and his poll numbers would jump even higher. Sure, people who know about such things came forward to say it would be impossible for any number of reasons, not the least of which being that Mexican leaders have said that they wouldn’t contribute a single dollar, but apparently that didn’t make a difference. We’d moved beyond facts. The reality of the wall didn’t matter. What mattered was that Trump had found a way to communicate with people about the very complicated issue of immigration in a very simple, concrete way. He painted a mental image of a wall. He created a shorthand way to convey to people where he stood. All he had to say was, “wall,” and people understood that it was the Mexicans who were dragging our country down, and that Trump was just the kind of no-nonsense leader who would stand up to them.

Trump, I think it’s clear, never intended to build an actual wall. He may, as far as I know, even be OK with an open border. That’s not what this was about, I told myself. This was about marketing him as a candidate to a population that is increasingly fearful and looking for easy solutions. “If elected,” I told myself, “there’s even a pretty good likelihood that he’ll govern as a centrist.” What we’re watching, after all, wasn’t reality. Trump wasn’t Hitler so much a P.T. Barnum.

So, that’s where I was on the matter until last night when someone shared the following with me. It’s a clip from a November 20, 1922 article in the New York Times titled “New Popular Idol Rises in Bavaria,” about a charismatic new politician who almost surely didn’t mean what he was saying, but just talking in shorthand in order to advance his political career. And it’s making me realize that perhaps the analogy that we discussed earlier isn’t altogether unwarranted.

Does this prove that Trump is the world’s next Hitler? Absolutely not. I just find it interesting that people – or at least this one journalist back in the 1920s – thought about Hitler then the same way that I do about Trump today, like he’s a not really genuine in his opinions, but merely saying what he knows will break through the noise and resonate with a population that feels as though they’re in decline. And it makes me think that maybe the analogy is deserved.

For what it’s worth, just as I was writing this, I saw the following from author Ted McClelland, whom we’ve spoken with here before. [McClellan, as you may recall, coined the phrase Michissippi.]

I’m no fan of Donald Trump, but comparing him to Hitler is really overblown. I read John Toland’s biography of Hitler, and one of the conclusions I drew was that there could never be an American Hitler. This country is too diverse for the ethno-nationalist appeals that Hitler used to unite Germany. We’re a nation based on ideals, not tribal identity and language. And our tradition of Anglo-Saxon democracy is very different from the authoritarianism that was a feature of German culture. So stop warning that Trump is going to put people in gas chambers. American democracy is, and always will be, more powerful than any one man.

I hope he’s right, and I expect that he is, but one does wonder if, with so much uncertainty in the world, and America’s middle class being squeezed to the point of disappearance, that people might gravitate toward a leader that offers up a simple message like “Make America Great Again,” and the comfort that comes along with knowing that our suffering isn’t our fault so much as it the fault of the Mexicans and the Muslims. One hopes that, whoever runs against Trump wins decisively, and we can put this chapter of American history behind us. Until we do, however, the question of whether or not America could have a Hitler of its own is going to stay with me.

As Louis C.K. just recently said, “Do you think they saw the shit coming? Hitler was just some hilarious and refreshing dude with a weird comb over who would say anything at all.”

Whatever happens, let’s be clear as to where all of this started. As Democracy for America founder Jim Dean told us yesterday, this happened because the Republicans made a deal with the Devil several years ago, implementing a so-called “Southern Strategy” that courted southern racists who had fled the Democratic party as it evolved to embrace civil rights. The Republicans played with fire for years, taking the votes of the uneducated and angry, while attempting to keep them at arms length. They knew that it was wrong, but they thought they could control the fanatical wing, which, over the years, became their base. By 1980, when Ronald Reagan, standing just a few miles from where civil rights activists were murdered in Philadelphia, Mississippi, talked of “states rights”, the fuse had been lit. And now that those chickens are finally coming home to roost, they’re helpless to stop it.

Posted in Civil Liberties, Politics, Uncategorized | Tagged Atlanta, authoritarianism, Donald Trump, fascism, fear, Free Speech, genocide, Hitler, illegal immigration, Lee Atwater, Louis C.K., Make America Great Again, Mississippi, Neshoba County Fair, Philadelphia, racism, reality television, Ronald Reagan, scapegoats, southern strategy, Ted McClelland, threats to Democracy, uncertainty | 14 Comments

Democracy for America’s Jim Dean on the circumstances that led to the creation of Donald Trump, his brother’s support of Clinton, and his belief that Bernie Sanders can go all the way

By Mark | March 7, 2016

I had the opportunity to spend some time this afternoon with Jim Dean, the co-founder and chair of Democracy for America (DFA), as he stopped by the Ypsi-Arbor campaign office for Bernie Sanders on his way to Flint. Among other things, we discussed Bernie’s chances in the Michigan Democratic primary, what the Sanders campaign could mean for the future of Democratic party, and, as Dean put it, “the euro-fascist thing that Trump offers.”

Thankfully, I got much of our conversation on video, which you can watch below. Here, however, are a few of the highlights.

In spite of the fact that Nate Silver at FiveThirtyEight.com is projecting with 99% certainty that Clinton will win the Democratic primary in Michigan on Tuesday, Dean seemed optimistic. He said he thinks that they’ve got a shot in Michigan, but, even without a win, he’s confident that they can stay competitive until until the end, taking the campaign all the way to the convention.

Bernie’s message, Dean told me, is the right one for right now. Voters today, he said, don’t care about parties. “They just want stuff done,” he says. They want out from under big business. They want health care. They want leaders who will stand against racial injustice and big business, which has been exploiting the American people for far too long. And Bernie, he said, is talking about those things more than anyone else on the campaign trail. This isn’t without precedent, Dean added. “We’ve been through this before with the robber barons,” he tells me, and we did something about it.

[Bernie Sanders, for those of you who are interested, will be speaking at U-M’s Crisler Center on Monday at 4:00.]

Dean and I discussed his relationship with his brother, former Vermont Governor and presidential candidate Howard Dean, who, as some of you may know, endorsed Clinton early in her campaign. Wile not talking about his bother specifically, Dean said that he thinks many who endorsed Clinton early on now regret it, as the energy and momentum is clearly with Sanders. Dean did say that he went to his brother early in the process, though, promising that, whoever the membership of DFA voted to support, the organization would run a positive campaign and eventually back the Democratic nominee. [When DFA’s one million members were asked who they wanted to support in the primary, 87.5% of respondents indicated Sanders.]

Speaking of Howard, I mentioned having seem him when he came through Ypsilanti a dozen years ago, and how small the crowd had been compared to those Sanders is drawing today. [Howard Dean probably drew about 50 people to Recreation Park, whereas Bernie Sanders pulled about 9,500 to the EMU Convocation Center.] I didn’t mention this to disparage the 2004 Dean campaign, but to illustrate just how much our collective appreciation for progressive platforms had grown in such a relatively short period of time. The American people, Dean tells me, are ready for something new. “This is a year that voters are not interested in more of the same,” he says, as demonstrated by the popularity of Sanders and Trump. The system hasn’t worked for 99% of Americans, according to Dean, and “voters are willing to gamble” this year on something new.

Dean and I also talked at some length about the criticisms against Sanders. On the subject of whether or not Sanders will be able to deliver on his promises if elected, Dean brings up Reagan, who also came to office with a movement behind him. If Sanders wins, Dean says, it’ll be because the people made it happen, and they’ll have to stay behind him to accomplish the goals he’s set out. Furthermore, he says, Sanders has proven that he can build coalitions and make things happen in the Senate. In evidence of this, Dean points to the fact that the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) seemed to be moving through Congress relatively easily until Sanders built a coalition, including several Republicans, and brought public attention to what it would mean for American workers.

When asked what he thinks about he criticism that Bernie hasn’t evolved over time, sticking with the same basic message for the past 40 years, Dean defends Sanders. First, he says, that same basic message has been correct all of these years. And, second, he says, Sanders does evolve. On the subject of race, for instance, Dean says that Sanders, who he descries as a life long learner, knew that he couldn’t just rest on his Civil Rights era laurels.

And we talked, of course, about Donald Trump… “(The Republicans) created this,” Dean said. It started with Reagan’s now famous “states rights” speech back in 1980, delivered just a few miles from Philadelphia, Mississippi, where civil rights workers had been murdered in 1964. They’ve been race baiting ever since, Dean says, and it’s finally come to a point with Trump where they can no longer just keep it bubbling below the surface, using it to their advantage. Now they actually have to deal with what they’ve created, he says.

Given what we’re seeing from the current Republican candidates, Dean seems to think that we could see a Democratic sweep come election time. That is, if we don’t screw it up. He says, if we want to win, and really make a change, we have to decide that we’re really a reform party, and stick with it. We can’t, he says, keep one foot on Wall Street, and expect that the people will stay with us. “This party is either the party of reform,” he says, “or we’re going home.”

We talked about the black vote, and how, despite the fact that Sanders has picked up endorsements from the likes of Ta-Nehisi Coates, Cornel West, Spike Lee, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Angela Davis, Ben Jealous and Killer Mike, he doesn’t seem to be making too much headway. While it helps, Dean says, that people are comparing the way both candidates have reacted to Black Lives Matter protestors, the truth is that Sanders just isn’t a household name the way that Clinton is. Dean does say, however, that we shouldn’t think of the black vote as being a monolithic entity. There are areas within the black community, Dean says, where Sanders is beginning to gain traction.

We talked about the Democratic National Committee and changes that, he says, will be happening regardless of who wins the primary. He points to Tulsi Gabbard, who just stepped down from the DNC so that she could endorse Sanders. That, he says, is how it should be done. If people within the DNC want to campaign for a specific candidate, they should step down. We can’t have conflicts of interest, he says. “And let’s be honest, that’s not what’s happening right now.” [For what it’s worth, I suspect that higher-ups within the DNC aren’t just backing Hillary because they love her. She’s also good for their bottom line. According to Time magazine, in February alone, Clinton raised $4.4 million for the DNC and state parties.]

And Dean and I discussed Michigan. From right-to-work to the Emergency Manager law that was passed over the clear will of the people, we talked about the diminished power of the Michigan citizen. And we talked about Snyder. “I don’t even know how guys like this can be in office,” Dean says.

Dean and I also discussed the possibility of a face-off between Trump and Sanders in the general election. Dean says he would welcome it, as it would force us as a nation to confront two very clear and distinct visions of the future. The people have to decide, he said, “Are we going to take control of this, or aren’t we?”

[As of right now, according to the most recent information at FiveThirtyEight, Clinton has 611 delegates, and Sanders has 410. This does not include so-called “super delegates” we keep hearing about in the news, as they are not bound to any particular candidate based on caucus or primary results. [There are 712 such people, and they can change their preferences right up until the time of Democratic National Convention.] Speaking of delegates, Michigan has 152, 19 of which are super delegates.]