How will we explain this chapter of American history to the next generation?

Everyone suspects that, in the wake of the Thanksgiving weekend, things will get a whole lot worse on the COVID-19 front. And things are already really, really bad. [Ted Cruz was apparently wrong when he told us that we’d never hear another thing about COVID-19 after the election.] As of right now, about 90,000 Americans are hospitalized with the deadly respiratory disease that Donald Trump assured us would magically “disappear.” And, yesterday, another 1,364 lost their lives, bringing the total number of dead in the United States to about 271,026. According to statistical modeling recently shared by the CDC, that number could reach 321,000 by December 19. [If this rate were to continue, we’d likely surpass 407,316 — the number of American service members who died in World War II — by early January.] I haven’t looked at the Michigan-specific numbers yet, but it looks as though roughly 1 out of every 850 North Dakotans are already dead from COVID-19.

I wonder how those of us who survive will explain this unprecedented chapter in American history to our grandchildren. I tried this morning, as a kind of mental exercise. I put myself in the position of someone 25 years or so from now trying to succinctly explain what we’re presently experiencing to a child. And it’s not easy. I’d encourage you to give it a shot. How do you explain, among other things, how it came to be that wearing of masks was politicized? How do you explain, so that a child could understand it, the fact that the Post Office was stopped by the White House from distributing masks early in the pandemic?

It just sounds so crazy when you try to articulate it. I mean, I can explain populism, and how it came to be that, during a period of great change and fear, we elected a man for office who offered easy answers to the various, very complicated challenges we faced. And I can explain the racist strategies of the Republican Party, and the extensive damage done by Fox News, that laid the groundwork for what was to follow. I can explain how it came to be that global infectious disease early warning programs were defunded in order to further slash taxes for the wealthy. I can even explain how it was that we got ourselves into a position where the narcissistic sociopath that we’d elected came to declare a deadly pandemic a “hoax,” as he felt that doing otherwise would be admitting failure. But how do you explain how it came to be that at entire political party, and some 40% of the American people, went along with it, actually mocking those who wore masks, even as the death rates soared? How do you explain the mass insanity and cognitive dissonance that made it possible for people to demand that their states be “reopened,” even as we were seeing mobile morgues and mass graves spread across the country? And how to we do it in such a way as to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again?

[A larger version of the image at the top of this post, from the COVID Tracking Project, can be found here.

This entry was posted in Health, Michigan, Politics, Uncategorized and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. Post a comment or leave a trackback: Trackback URL.


  1. Bob
    Posted November 28, 2020 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    I hope to be one of the survivors. I will probably start by explaining the insidious influence of reality television, celebrity culture and right wing media that set the stage for the biggest failed experiment in the history of our country. The election of a demented narcissist named Donald J. Trump. How he took an incredibly bad situation and deliberately made it worse by ten. How he is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands and the destruction of an economy. How he paved the way for stupidity in governance in countries across the globe and the legitimacy of white supremacy and fascist ideology.

  2. Anonymous
    Posted November 28, 2020 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    When you are at the bottom and all you have is your health, then you want to survive the pandemic, health intact. You’ll wear a mask. If you are at the top, and to enjoy them life you’ve planned out for several decades, you’ll need your health, then you want to survive the pandemic, health intact. You’ll wear a mask. If you care deeply about somebody with a health problem and you want them to survive a pandemic, health intact. You’ll wear a mask.
    If you’ve already sacrificed a lot of love and health to scramble out of the bottom in order to get to the top, then a pandemic is no different than any other setback, which didn’t require wearing a mask to overcome.

  3. Bob
    Posted November 28, 2020 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    The next tragedy is going to be the anti-vaccine movement that’s on the rise. The Qmorons are out in force to urge people not to take it.

  4. Posted November 28, 2020 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    Like always, I look to some body much smarter. Carl Sagan seems to have been as prophetic as George Orwell. Notice how I am posting a link to the video version

  5. Demetrius
    Posted November 28, 2020 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Most reasonable people: “Please wear a mask in public, try to maintain social distance, and reduce unnecessary exposures where possible to help protect yourself, and to help keep family members, loved ones, and everyone else in our community safe – especially the elderly, and those with underlying conditions.”

    A vocal minority:

  6. Wobblie
    Posted November 28, 2020 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    I guess we also get a new derogatory term for folks. Time to retire covid Karen and start using covid Amy when referring to superspreaders.

  7. Lynne
    Posted November 29, 2020 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    I am not sure we will explain it to our grandchildren. I mean, my grandfather’s father died of the flu in 1918 and he NEVER once mentioned it other than to say that it was hard for his mother as a widow. My other set of grandparents never mentioned it at all. They just never brought it up.

  8. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 29, 2020 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    “But how do you explain how it came to be that at entire political party, and some 40% of the American people, went along with it, actually mocking those who wore masks, even as the death rates soared? How do you explain the mass insanity and cognitive dissonance that made it possible for people to demand that their states be “reopened,” even as we were seeing mobile morgues and mass graves spread across the country? And how to we do it in such a way as to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again?”—Mark

    I think these are good questions for you to think about. You should think about how your questions are formulated and also think about how you might have contributed to that division amongst people that led to a condition of distrust. The answers to these questions are in your own writing. Go back 3.5 years and start reading but don’t forget to bring your honesty and your sense of humor.

    There are consequences that occur when you, for 3.5 years, choose to parrot obvious false narratives.

    Chickens come home to roost.

  9. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 29, 2020 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    What is going to be difficult to explain is why you supported the NWO.

  10. Jean Henry
    Posted November 29, 2020 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Woodrow Wilson chose to bury the Spanish Flu which is wy most Of us know very little about it though it was, in its time, as bad or worse than Covid and equally badly handled.

    I’m learning that Trump was not as unprecedented as I had thought.

  11. Jean Henry
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    HW- are you getting your info from Newsmax yet?

    The King of Trump TV Thinks You’re Dumb Enough to Buy It

  12. Anonymous
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 5:49 am | Permalink

    Maybe he is switching to OAN. He’s an oanist.

  13. Wobblie
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    For FF history is only 3 1/2 old. At least EOS knows that history is at least 6 thousand years old. FF continues to amaze. Living breathing scape goats are so much easier than confronting systematic failures. Much like tea party Republicans and their death cult leader flogging the lie of Obama being a Kenyan for 8 years has no culpability.
    Never engage in self reflection never engage in any systematic attempt to understand. Smart people find a scape goat and hold onto it for dear life. Isnt that right FF. I recommend you go back just 7 or 8 months and ask yourself, how did the smartest person on this site get the pandemic so wrong? Why did I believe that a regime as weak and corrupt and as incompetent as the Trump regime would protect working folks. Or perhaps smart folks like FF never believed that and instead are totally duplicitous like their leader.

  14. Jean Henry
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    Wobblie: What is the basis for your assertion that FF is the smartest person on this site? Verbiage?

    Truly confounding.

  15. John Brown
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    We tell them schadenfreude is for losers. Just look how trumpastan is owning the Libs now! …. by dying of covid.

  16. Posted November 30, 2020 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    JH, he is at least as smart as you. I can tell things about smart folks. Having spent a life time deferring to their superior intellects you learn things. Your unshakable believe in liberal dogma is at least as rational and well thought out as FF’s well founded and intellectually sound believes. Smart people are always sure of their positions, and like FF you to don’t bother with reflecting on your fundamental believes. Smart people, once they have arrived at an answer that coincides with their believes stick with it despite all evidence. It is what smart folks do.

  17. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    I think Wobblie is trying to say lies are not like chickens.


  18. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    I wonder if John Brown would be willing to explain his joke?

  19. Anonymous
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    I’m tired of so much winning! Biden has been declared president multiple times already! And he hasn’t even started yet! Most presidents just get this once per term!

  20. Bob
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Jean is no liberal

  21. Lynne
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    What is a liberal? I mean, Jean’s opinions about policy seem pretty liberal to me. But I might be using a different definition than Bob. At least he isn’t misusing the word ‘neoliberal’ like so many Bernie folks often do.

  22. Elviscostello
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Hyperborian Warlord, I’ve never seen Mark write about the NWO and it’s place in the failure of World Championship Wrestling from Atlanta. Now, you want to talk factions, The Four Horsemen, those guys were awesome.

  23. Anonymous
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 7:00 pm | Permalink

  24. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 8:25 pm | Permalink

    Princess Cassandra,

    We have already discussed the different uses of the “neoliberal” term. A person is not misusing a term simply because you have used the term differently in a different context. The way Wobblie has used the term is very firmly established way of using the term. His meaning often differs from the usage in college economics classes, for example. But it would also be abnormal for someone to say study economics and somehow not be aware of the different uses of the term. We have already talked about this. You, Princess Cassandra, seem to think that “what things mean” is somehow magically tied into how you, in particular, take something to mean.


    Jean often makes the same mistake. ***It is not a very liberal way to view the world of meaning***

  25. Jean Henry
    Posted November 30, 2020 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– I did not (nor would I) suggest I was more intelligent that FF, simply that he’s not the smartest person here, not by a long shot.

    Bob– FB algorithms have me pegged as a radical so maybe not a liberal after all… Your definition of liberalism seems decidedly illiberal.

  26. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    FF, “We” have not had such a discussion. You have just spewed BS as you have just done here and I have rolled my eyes.

  27. Anonymous
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    I hope we got a promise from Tehran.

  28. Bob
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    I don’t recall ever defining liberal. If foaming mouthed devotion to a war monger, big bank protecting, Walmart board of directors, Monsanto loving hack like Hillary makes you liberal, then you are indeed a liberal. I had to look up “illiberal.” I had no idea if it was actually a word or some of your creative spelling. As usual you talk shit.

  29. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Wrong Princess,

    You are half educated. Lopsided educated. But you think you know so many things. There are multiple meanings for the term period. The conversation about the term was had here. You were part of it. You are proud that you ignore basic facts? Or you are not aware that your memory is sub par. The sooner you realize you are half educated and lopsided educated the sooner you can begin to actually learn about the world and learn about who you really are…

  30. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Your claim that these guys are misusing the term is the thing that is BS. It is worse than BS because thinking such a dumb thing requires that you believe that your usage ought to reign supreme. You still don’t see the pattern do you, Princess?

  31. Posted December 1, 2020 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Great article by Matt Taibbi , one of the few journalist who refuses to simply be a stenographer for the ruling elites, describing the Democrats giving the royal finger to the left wing. As if Clintonites would have ever voted for Sanders–the other thing I have figured out about smart people, they have no shame when it comes to their own hypocrisy.

  32. Posted December 1, 2020 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Here is Tanden, and I presume the main stream Biden Democrat position on health care and a “new social compact”. I found it an interesting read, but totally devoid of important details like, How do we pay for “Medicare Extra”. It is just Medicare Advantage expanded, sounds like individuals would still be paying premiums in addition to their Medicare tax payments. It sounds to me that it would just be another way for the Government to funnel money to the private insurance industry, we would just be changing the Affordable Care Acts name.
    Her solutions to Corporate greed, and how to move to an ecological and economical sustainable future is nothing but platitudes about “reforming corporate governance” with no substance at all of how to achieve. She mentions an Elizabeth Warren plan to create an “Office of United States Corporations”.
    The one specific was forcing large Corporations to be chartered as Corporate Citizens. Shit we have already given corporations perpetual life, granted them more free speech than almost any human citizen can engage in, allow them to engage in any manner of illegal activity only occasionally facing fines. Now the main street Democrats want to grant them Citizenship. One more step towards creating a form of corporate serfdom. Having been a debt slave it is a very small step to indenturment, and one more step to having your children become liable for their parents, grandparents debts.
    The choices have always been the same Socialism or Barbarism. A class divided society, or one that is egalitarian. But hey, I know I am too stupid to understand the complex nuances of high stakes politics, and I (and all the rest of us human citizens) should be content in our roles as wage slaves and consumer hogs it is what makes life worth living, am I right?

  33. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    I think that if someone sees a woman like HRC as “foaming mouthed devotion to a war monger, big bank protecting, Walmart board of directors, Monsanto loving hack ” it says a LOT more about them and perhaps how they view women seeking power. Hillary is a liberal. It is Bob who isn’t a liberal because that kind of patriarchal thinking is very conservative even though he may favor other sorts of liberal thinking.

    I see your BS patterns FF. Trust me. I disagree with you that my education is lacking and I certainly do not see you as being someone in a position to judge such things in others. You have to BE educated to judge another’s education adequately after all.

    This is what neoliberal means and although some people seem to want to misuse the word to mean “not as liberal as I would like” as the far-progressive-left likes to, that doesn’t really change the meaning. OF course, over time language evolves and sometimes words change meanings but I don’t think that has really happened yet.

    Here is the thing though. Yes, this definition CAN be applied to HRC but it also can just as easily be applied to Bernie Sanders who also, like HRC, is a capitalist who wants to socialize a little more of the US economy than is already socialized. Both are in favor of decreasing government spending in some areas and increasing it in others. Both are in favor of policies that promote free-market capitalism, neither are particularly in favor of deregulation.

    Learn to pronounce
    favoring policies that promote free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending.
    an advocate or supporter of free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending.

  34. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    Wow. that Taibbi guy is a real asshole. I haven’t heard of him before but am glad to know not to pay attention to any of his future writings. Tanden btw, was 100% correct about Sanders *and* his awful abusive supporters.

  35. Posted December 1, 2020 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    Lynne, if I remember correctly you work in the economic sphere. So you know what economist mean when they say a V or U shaped recovery, or even an L shaped “recovery” (hardly a recovery if L shaped). Do you know what is meant by a K shaped recovery? I just heard this letter being utilized to explain our current economic trajectory.

    Economists talk of a “K-shaped recovery” where the well-off bounce back on the upward tick of the K while the less fortunate slide further into poverty on the downward leg.
    Stock markets are at record highs. And the very rich have done very, very well. America’s billionaires have added $1tn to their wealth over the pandemic.

    Yet 20 million Americans are currently unemployed. About 778,000 people filed for unemployment last week alone. For many hunger has become a major issue. Government figures show that the week before Thanksgiving – America’s biggest feast day – 5.6m households struggled to put enough food on the table. Huge lines have formed at food banks across the country and years of neglect and underfunding of the systems to help those in need have worsened their plight.

    According to the Century Foundation, 12 million Americans will be cut off from their jobless benefits on 26 December. Anew round of stimulus have stalled and stalled again. The extra payments have stopped, the cash has been spent. Republicans, happy to run up record debts under Trump, are now talking about the need for “austerity”.

    “It’s borderline criminal that nothing has been done,” said William Rodgers, former chief economist at the US Department of Labor, and an informal adviser to the Biden transition team. “They rammed through a supreme court nominee but have done nothing to help American families.”

    A disproportionate number of those people will be women and Latino or Black and young, the groups hardest hit by the economic downturn. only one in four US workers have a job that allows them to work from home.

    You whip out your “you are a sexist” argument when ever the female proponent of the economic elite is criticized. I suspect this kneejerk reaction is more driven by your economic status and not your gender.

  36. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    We already had this conversation. The definition you are giving has been around for a long time. It is the definition used in most economics classes. And a great number of people have ALSO been using the term in a different way for like 20 or 30 years. It has an established different meaning in different contexts. It is not a “misuse” of the term at this point. It was not a “misuse” of the term 15 years ago. The only reason you insists on it’s misuse is because you have a taste for the supremacy you pretend to be against. Sorry. Meaning does not conform to fit the Princess. It does not work like that….

  37. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    She hasn’t heard of Taibbi?


  38. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Wobblie, I think that if HRC had been president, we would have had different policies. We would have been much better prepared for the economic consequences of the pandemic. I will never EVER forgive those who didn’t vote for her in 2016 because they didn’t think she was liberal enough. THEY ultimately are why we are in the position we are in. Just like how Nader voters are responsible for a lot of the climate damage the US has done to the world.

    But in that vein, the issue has been going on for a lot longer. And yes neoliberal policies are why. It has cost most Americans a LOT of money. Around $50 TRILLION in lost wages if that recent study from the Rand corporation is correct (and I have no reason to think it is not). We cannot forget though that the reason those people who able to get into office was that the American voter believed those policies would benefit them. Now that they can feel the effects, there is still an issue of helping people connect the dots. Unfortunately, it is easier to just blame other liberals for not being liberal enough. But if you cannot convince Democrats, who as a group are more liberal than the general population, that those policies are worth supporting, what hope is there of convincing the even more conservative general electorate?

    Also, I get it that a white man who is as privileged as all white men are has trouble seeing that we live in a culture of sexism. And I also get it how it can be threatening to be called out on your sexism. But so what? It needs to happen. That is one of the reasons I am so thrilled that Biden has chosen Tanden. Other than that she is really capable and will do a good job. Go read that shitty Taibbi article again. He is angry at her because she was calling out Bernie supporters for their sexism and abuse. I, of course, have no fucks to give about men whose feelings get hurt because their sexism is called out.

    FF, people have used the term in lots of different (but still reasonable) ways for years but at no time has it correctly been used in the “not as liberal or progressive as I would like” manner. The irony of you telling me that the meaning of this word doesn’t conform to fit my thinking while you are telling me that you think it conforms to fit the FF is not lost on me.

  39. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 12:21 pm | Permalink


    No irony. Your claim in the past and now is that “neo liberal” is misused because it does not conform to the definition you probably learned in an economics class. You are giving your definition the supremacists stamp of approval because it grew out of an academic setting. Although I highly doubt that people are actually using the term to simply mean “not as liberal as I like” if they actually are, as you claim, that is not a misuse of a term, because meaning is not constrained to what the academy (or Princess) dictates.

    You could apply the same very illiberal argument against urban slang as containing so many misused terms. I could make the exact same arguments against you in defense of urban slang. What do you think would happen then? Answer: It would expose your argument as the same kind of argument that an illiberal supremacist would use.

  40. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Why doesn’t Lynne set up a non profit with the goal of explaining to urban populations that they are misusing too many terms? Save them Princess. You are their only hope.

  41. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    The bigotry is in your logic.

    How much money do you owe me for all of these anti bigotry lessons I have given to you Lynne? I guess it depends upon how much it is actually worth to you.

  42. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    She won’t forgive people for not voting for her candidate.


  43. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    “ I get it that a white man who is as privileged as all white men are…”—Lynne

    Wobblie is as privileged as all other white men? Lynne does not believe that intersectionality should apply to white men now? It really is too bad we couldn’t have Princess Cassandra dictate our lives. It would be so much more efficient.


  44. Jean Henry
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    FF– All White people are privileged in this society. Including white women. That does not mean they do not suffer or struggle or that they many not also be marginalized by any number of factors. It simply means that ANY obstacles they encounter in life will be easier to clear/survive because they are White that if they were Brown or Black facing the same obstacles. It also means that any success they achieve is easier to attain because they are White than if they were Brown or Black striving for the same goals. There is abundant data to back this up. The consequences of both the 2008 recession and this pandemic make that clear as well. It’s in the numbers.

    Being White is not a character flaw. It does however mark a particular societal position that is worth acknowledging.

  45. Jean Henry
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Matt Tabibi, Wobblie and DEmetrius’ hero:

  46. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    “It simply means that ANY obstacles they encounter in life will be easier to clear/survive because they are White that if they were Brown or Black facing the same obstacles.”

    So it easier for Wobblie to pay for top notch medical treatment than it is for Obama. Wobblie is going to be thrilled to hear about this great news!

    I realize that intersectionality as a tool is trickier when we are dealing with brown people but I am at least relieved to find out that intersectionality is cut and dry when dealing with crackers.


  47. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    I do believe in intersectionality but all white men have both white privilege and male privilege.

    As for not forgiving people for voting in certain ways that have proved to be very harmful, I guess that I am ok with holding people accountable for their actions. Voting is an action. It has consequences. Anyone who voted in a way that helped Donald Trump get elected has blood on their hands in the over 250k COVID deaths imho.

  48. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    I brought up the privilege to explain what appears to be a blind spot that many of the white men here seem to have when they are called out for their sexism and in other conversations, their racism. I acknowledge that it can be sometimes difficult to see one’s own privilege and that it is very easy to dismiss the messenger when one is being called out about it. If Obama were being cavalier about the economic hardships people are going through, I might suggest that his economic privilege was blinding him a bit. But he is not. Obama seems pretty good at recognizing his own privilege.

    What is interesting about FF’s “anti-bigotry” is that he is calling me a bigot for not being a white supremacist or misogynist. When I fail to give white men what he considers their proper due, he calls me a bigot. So I know his opinion on this is not one I share. Which doesn’t mean that I deny bigotry on my part towards other groups. I just know that FF is not in a position to even see it much less point it out. His opinion is basically worthless to me since it is so rooted in white male patriarchy.

  49. Anonymous
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:46 pm | Permalink


  50. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    Intersectionality is not the kind of thing a person needs to believe in is it? It is a necessary fact insofar as one accepts that different people have relative advantages and disadvantages that are derived from how they fit into a society. The question is: Does intersectionality not apply to a white person ? I asked because you said
    “a white man [like Wobblie] who is as privileged as all white men are…” It is a curious statement! I am not accusing you of disbelieving in intersectionality I am asking you how that statement would be possible unless you thought intersectionality does not apply to crackers. You did not answer my question which is also curious.

  51. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    “What is interesting about FF’s “anti-bigotry” is that he is calling me a bigot for not being a white supremacist or misogynist.”

    No Princess. I am sorry but no.

  52. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    FF, I have answered your question. I made that statement as an explanation for why Wobblie might be blind to the sexism he displays. Intersectionality can sometimes be useful in such a context if it helps people see their privilege. Experiencing sexism has helped me see my privilege in other intersectional areas of my life at any rate. I can’t be alone there. However, I have seen that often intersectionality does NOT make people more aware of their privilege. I recently got into it with a gay man who was upset that fat people might get the COVID vaccine first. His experience with discrimination as a gay person did not help him see how his own hatred of fat people was causing him to be oppressive.

    So seriously, what groups of people do you feel I am being bigoted towards, FF? You mostly bring it up when I am challenging the status of white men.

  53. Posted December 1, 2020 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    JH, I am sorry, I could not get through the WP’s article you posted. Like so much of what the WP prints the article was full of what other people have to say about his publication from 20 years ago, but not a single actual example that I could judge. Instead I must rely upon the judgement of some liberal claque, that calls people names without providing context or substance for an independent judgement.
    I do not know what Taibbi published in Moscow 20 years ago, and after reading half of this article, I still have not seen an example. Much like the character assassination attacks you regularly participate in against Gabbard, Assange anybody you perceive as a threat from the left–you are the one who has undefined and amorphous “purity” standards.
    I am sure that Rolling Stone which Taibbi continues to work with has been accused of, and in my own judgement, has been guilty of rampant sexism over the decades. As has your favorite propaganda rag the WP. Both have also been the publishers of high quality journalism, of which Taibbi strives to do as well. I trust Taibbi to be far more independent of ruling class blinders. But thanks for digging up a character attack from 3 years ago.

  54. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    Dear mamsplainer,

    I don’t need you to explain the concept of intersectionality to me. I am not disputing the concept. I am completely cool with the concept. Also, everybody understands the notion that our relative place in the world can tend to create blindspots. It’s an observable fact. You applied that perfectly fine NOTION/TENDENCY to Wobblie, obviously. I am not even asking you for the grounds upon which you applied the notion to Wobblie even though you are assuming he has a blind spot based in sexism….He can ask you about that if he wants….

    I am asking you something simple and you are simply not answering it: I asked you how it is possible that you can reconcile your statement 1) Wobblie is as privileged as all white men are; and your belief that 2) intersectionality applies to white people too. Were you misspeaking when you said #1? Do you not believe that intersectionality applies to white people too? Did you briefly forget that intersectionality applies to white people too?

    I don’t see how your can have both without providing an explanation or correction.

  55. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    FF, Wobblie is white, therefore he has white privilege. He is a man, therefore he has male privilege. All white men have white and male privilege. I am not sure where your confusion is here. Does intersectionality apply to white people? Of course, it does. Do you somehow believe that one can’t talk about white privilege or male privilege if there are some intersectional areas where an individual may be less privileged?

    I suppose I could have worded things better. I merely meant that wobblie, like all white men, has white male privilege. I wasn’t suggesting that all white men are equally privileged in that certainly gay white men, non-christian white men, fat white men, effeminate white men, disabled white men, and poor white men are less privileged than other white men. I should have worded it “I get it that a white man who has the same white male privilege that all white men have…”

    The point here is that he will read an account by a woman about the horrible treatment she personally experienced and will dismiss it, possibly unconsciously, because it was a mere woman who wrote it. Granted he may not have gotten that far into the article. I don’t know how I failed to get a misogynist like Taibbi on my radar but woooo boy, I posted a link to that article he wrote about Tanden in one of my FB groups and I got called out big time for giving a man like that clicks. LOL. He has a LONG history of it apparently.

  56. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    “Do you somehow believe that one can’t talk about white privilege or male privilege if there are some intersectional areas where an individual may be less privileged?”


    Jean made the same mistake when she said: “All White people are privileged in this society”. Isn’t it weird that you two are seemingly making the same mistake in the same conversation? If you guys both misspoke you are still only making an empty tautological claim AFTER your incorrect statements are corrected. You are (after correcting yourself) essentially saying: “White people have the white privilege that white people have”. Pointing out the emptiness of the statement is not rejecting the idea of white privilege but it is important to point out that it is an empty statement BECAUSE you are using the empty statement as the basis upon which you “explain” why Wobblie can supposedly not see “the truth” you and Jean can see. The only problem is that there never was anyone who exists purely as “Privileged white man”. Saying otherwise rejects the idea of intersectionality. Rather than privileged white man we have Wobblie who has many of the advantages of a white man and many of the disadvantages of being an older, working class, non-college graduate, perhaps disabled, perhaps not in peak health, person. Your categorizing Wobblie as one thing in an empty way is false. Your application of a false notion in order to supposedly “explain” that Wobblie can’t see “your truth” is an empty tactic.

    So are you going to tell Jean she misspoke when she made the same kind of ridiculously empty statement you also made?

  57. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    White people often fail to see white privilege because it is so normal for them. Men often fail to see male privilege for the same reason. White men in particular, who are used to both of those kinds of privilege, often see equality in those areas as oppression. It is very possible for people who are privileged in some areas of their life to not see it even if they don’t have privilege in other areas of their lives. I am saying that wobblie clearly cannot see the sexism in the links he posts and how he speaks about women. I am supposing that one possible reason is that he can’t see his male privilege. It is clear to me too though that he DOES see the class and economic privilege others have. It reminds me of that My Brightest Diamond song High, Low, Middle where she says “When you’re privileged you don’t even know you’re privileged. When you’re not, you know”

    I know that I have similar blindness sometimes to race issues because of my own white privilege. I can see issues related to things like sexism more clearly because I don’t have gender privilege. Heh. Actually, that isn’t entirely true. In many ways, women have female privilege in our culture and I often need to be called out on my blindness in those areas (It is ok to cry FF if you ever see yourself honestly)

    Jean was more clear than I was when she said that all white people have privilege. That is true. All white people have white privilege. It is not an empty statement.

  58. Jean Henry
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 6:23 pm | Permalink

    FF please demonstrate that all white ppl are not privileged by their race in this culture. That white skin alone does not confer advantage no matter what other issues one encounters in life?

  59. Jean Henry
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    FF— it’s your take that’s reductive not mine nor Lynne’s

  60. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    It is an empty statement because Wobblie is not strictly a ball of “white person privilege”. Nobody exists in the categories which you try to place people in. Not one single person. The general notion of privilege implies a ranked order. Insofar as you accept the idea of intersectionality we are all in possession of completely unique layers of gradations of ranked advantage/ disadvantage. Even if white privilege somehow magically overshadowed/nullified all of the other other possible intersectional disadvantages that could be contained within a white person it is mathematically impossible for all white people in America to be in the 50th percentile of privilege because White people make up 73% of the population. Your argument was phony! You were trying to say that Wobblie, due to his white man privilege, can’t see his own sexism.

    Okay. Let’s cut to the chase: If Wobblie is a sexist person then why don’t you quote something that he has ever said that points to his sexism. Fuck this voodoo bullshit you and Jean do. You are couple of one trick ponies. The problem Is. Everybody. Knows. The. Trick.

  61. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    My argument is more reductive than Jean and Lynne’s? WTF?! LOL x 1000.

    Jean and Lynne seem to believe that when they place individuals inside of categories that those individuals are actually constrained to live their lives inside of the constraints of those categories. LOL. There will never be any sort of liberal progress coming from these ladies until they do a total mental/ spiritual overhaul. They are two very old fashioned ladies. Old fashioned in the worst ways…It’s 2020. What the holy fuck?!

  62. Lynne
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Go home, FF. You’re drunk!

  63. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 1, 2020 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    The established pattern is that when someone asks Jean or Lynne for evidence to substantiate their BS they try to change the subject or pretend like they are bored.

    Here is a deal: I will agree that Wobblie is a sexist and can’t see his sexism because of he is a big ball of white privilege if you give me a quote of something sexist he has said. I don’t even agree with Wobblie about much but I don’t remember him ever displaying sexism. Hey! This could be a two for one. If you can offer a quote of Wobblie saying something sexist I will accept the judgmen that I also cant see his sexism because my privilege has blinded me to his sexism. How is that? Do it. You won’t I bet. Because I have noticed a couple of things too: Princess Cassandra makes bull shit up constantly. And Princess Cassandra can’t back up any of the bullshit she says.

  64. Posted December 2, 2020 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    I will agree that I am sexist, and racist. Being white and male evidently constrains me to either confront these external signs of privilege or enjoy and benefit from my privilege. My understanding of intersectionality is the interaction of race, gender and CLASS to create a privileged elite. I never hear the privileged white woman on this site confront their obvious privileged economics status. I am constantly accused of mansplaning, meanwhile I am told by my economic superiors that, for example, be happy with employer provided health care. Constantly told to be happy with my economic status and my betters will make decisions relative to my economic life that will make it better–classic ruling class bullshit. Class privilege trumps (ha ha ha) race and gender every time. Our economic privileged elite is willing at this point to include individuals of other races and genders–as long as they work to maintain the elite’s class privilege.
    Divide and conquer is the classic method our rulers use to keep us in line, JH and Lynne are just as good at furthering these aims as EOS, HW and FF.

  65. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    I appreciate your post Wobblie. It’s not perfect but it is pretty good. Can you think of some sexist things you have expressed here, Wobblie? Lynne apparently can’t.

  66. Lynne
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    FF, oh come on. that article that wobblie posted was sexist AF.

    I do have class issues but I don’t recall telling wobblie EVER that he must be happy with employer-provided health insurance. I have always supported macroeconomic policy that would benefit poorer people along with all working people. And unlike wobblie, I have never thrown the economically marginalized under the bus in or at least not since my 20s when I still believed that voting third party could change things. Who do you think is going to suffer more from the climate consequences of that 2000 Nader vote or that 2016 Stein vote? The poor! Who is going to suffer if Social Security runs out? Remember how Gore had a plan to address that and we have mostly ignored it since?

  67. Posted December 2, 2020 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    Lynne, it was those great Democrats like Hillary’s husband Bill that eliminated Aid for Families with Dependent Children–tearing a huge hole in our Social Security safety net. I suspect you voted for those racist, classist policies after you were 20. Why I would think Hillary would pursue anything other than classist economic policies was beyond me, and her private conversations (for huge amounts of money) with bankers pretty much convinced me that, like Obama (who was also handsomely rewarded for his service upon leaving office), serving the interest of the elite was paramount.

    Here is a good letter from my friend Dave Rovic to his landlord. Pretty well explains some of the current reality that those in more privileged economic status probably are ignorant of.

  68. Lynne
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    I am aware of Clinton’s welfare reforms and never agreed with them. He did do some good things though. He tried to reform health care in a way that would work better for people. AT any rate, I did vote for Clinton because the other two candidates in that race were even more conservative. I didn’t vote for him the primary though!

  69. Lynne
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    That election btw was when I learned about the power of third parties. Bill Clinton was too liberal to win that race as conservative as he was. But Ross Perot steps up and splits that vote?

    I do wonder though if wobblie is *really* in a lower socio-economic class than I am. Don’t you have a union job? Or are retired from one with a pension and health insurance (two things I will not have in my own retirement other than Social Security/Medicare)?

  70. Posted December 2, 2020 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    This is an interesting study that has just been published–I wonder why that was not big news this morning?
    So much for covid being the chinavirus. This study identifies the virus was present in the 9 states where the pandemic first erupted in the US at least as early as December 19. Until now the first “reported” case in US was a month later.

  71. Posted December 2, 2020 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    I read where scientist in Barcelona identified covid in samples from Oct. 2019, and Italian scientist from samples in Milan from November 2019.

    I suppose these kind of reports go against the new ruling class paradigm that China is our enemy, so instead we get CNN touting the Wuhan papers, which if analyzed demonstrates Chinese incompetence in the face of a new virus, and not evil intent.

  72. Posted December 2, 2020 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Lynne, I get $1420 dollars a month SS. I was forced to spend my 401k when Snyder fired me in 2011. People don’t hire old white men who have a history of causing trouble. Just had to sell my business (the one my 401 k bought) at a $90000 dollar loss (thankyou very much trumpvirus). Lossing about 1000 a month trying to sale my home (thank god my wife loves me). My buddy Johnny (2nd generation Mexican American–my espanol sucks, but Johnny speaks it like a native and helps me when I work with unemployed folks who do not know much english but know spannish) was over the last two days helping me redo a bathroom for the sale. He worked at GM for nearly 25 years–forced him out at age 55, (4 kids still living at home). Got one of those “big” buyouts. He got a GM pension until this year when it was reduced since he was eligible to receive SS. He manages to get by doing handyman work.
    In all the “intersectionality” politics, the rampant and destructive ageism of our exceptional country goes unnoticed.
    Was just looking at my SS account. It shows my earnings for every year that I worked. It is like a sign wave, the years of unemployment and the slow economic recoveries are just so apparent.

  73. Jean Henry
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Wobblie– A reminder here that Hillary Clinton is not her husband and, in fact, has consistently been more liberal than he was. Her platform was progressive and incredibly detailed. As is Bidens. He needs to be held to that platform, as would she have been had she won. Anticipating that he won’t follow through to the degree allowed by Congress is not helpful. I didn’t love Obama’s choices for the financial sectors of the cabinet but we were mid financial collapse. They got most of the economy out of it, but not the most marginalized– Black and Brown families. I would have preferred he had made other choices, but he was inexperienced and made more conservative choices a crisis. That’s pretty standard human behavior in any urgent scenario.

    Taibbi’s article denied the political reality of needing a (likely) GOP confirmation for any cabinet appointment. It was a hit job on Neera Tanden to get ppl like you to solicit no votes on her confirmation from Dem senators– not because of any question about qualifications but because she dared to criticize Bernie and his supporters. The GOP also don’t like her because she is critical of them. That article was simply another attack on a mouthy broad.

    So who’s being divisive?

  74. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 12:07 pm | Permalink


    Your big example of Wobblie’s sexism is the article Wobblie shared? Ok. What is sexist about Taibbi’s article? He is criticizing Neera. He is criticizing the decision to appoint her to that position. Are any of points of criticism based in sexism. Explain.

    (It’s almost like Jean and Lynne think women should be immune from criticism.)

  75. Lynne
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Wow, wobblie. That does sound harsh and you are correct that ageism is alive and well. I appreciate the pain of a $90,000 loss but if it makes you feel better, I wouldn’t even have $90,000 to lose in the first place! Real estate has been doing well though so hopefully you will have something after you sell your house!

    When I retire, I will have a similar income to yours IF I can make it to 67 1/2. We will see. I do have a 401(k) but one of the ways I protect it is by not thinking of it as my money. It belongs to retired Lynne! Still, I am often grateful that my retirement dream is to live in a van down by the river!

    That btw, is one area of my life where I am learning a lot about the struggles of others. I have found myself in several online van communities. It is a lifestyle choice that in some people’s cases isn’t much of a choice. It is all they can afford. It appeals to people who want to maintain some comfort and independence in their poverty. Living out of a vehicle is technically homelessness but these folks really don’t feel homeless. I find it easy to advocate for this group politically because of course, I am part of it. They need access to free camping so I am favor of using public lands in that way. They really need access to health care and a Medicare for All would be the best solution although a public option on the ACA would be helpful too. A UBI would be the ultimate though. In the things that would be nice to have, I think programs that encourage green energy could be huge. Subsidized solar panels and windmills?

    FF, I *could* go through that article again to find the particular points but after some though, I don’t think you are worth the effort. You are not likely to see the sexism I point out just like you can’t see the racism of Nick Sandmann.

  76. Lynne
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    AS an aside, I am sure that this is not entirely the issue behind the ageism in our labor market but I know it is a big part of it. Older people as a group are more expensive to insure in terms of health. I think this is part of the issue behind fat discrimination too. If we divorce health care from employment, it will help some with these discrimination issues. I think HRC would have moved us in this direction and I expect Biden will as well. Even if things don’t get moved as far as people want, it will still be something.

  77. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    I have noticed that Lynne always has time to allege sexism and racism but never has the time and energy to actually give the reasons behind her allegations. You chose the article as the example of Wobblie’s sexism. You said the article is “sexist af”. If it is “sexist af” it should not be too difficult to come up with one example of sexism which supports your allegation. Right?

  78. Lynne
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, that is how little I think of you FF. I get it that it may look to you like I can’t point out what was sexist in that article but I don’t care. If anyone else wants an explanation, I will be happy to provide it. It wouldn’t be too difficult but would take up 5-10 minutes of my time which isn’t worth it if it is just FF

  79. Anonymous
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    *sports radio voice*
    That damn Taibbi! he just might do it again! He looks on course to tank the nomination of Neera Tanden. How’s he do it?! Well, he’s posted a critique on his personal substack page, inciting his readers to solicit no votes from their senators! And it just might work!

  80. Anonymous
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    I am curious about the sexism in the opinion piece, if anyone wants to share some highlights/insights.

  81. Posted December 2, 2020 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    and Lynne when you are thrown on the dust heap and are technologically made obsolete, or your health fails, and you still have 10 years to go before retirement Lynne gets to use the money–what is old used up unemployed Lynne going to live on?

  82. Posted December 2, 2020 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, I love how you seem to have missed Hillary when she was in charge of reforming health care when her husband was President. The Dems had both houses of Congress the Presidency, and the Commission she headed could not get a proposal together to give Congress. Long memories are one of the few things old folks get to have–for a while at least.

  83. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    It’s like Lynne has never heard anyone levying criticisms against Neera before. People have not liked her and they have not liked her for a long time and their reasons are documented. I am not a Bernie supporter but I feel comfortable saying Neera is a full of shit sort of person. Chris Cuomo exposed her a few years back for god’s sake. Chris Cuomo!

    It is my suspicion that Jean and Lynne have been programmed/brainwashed by their very narrow-minded twitter feeds. IMO, there is nothing at all surprising about people questioning the wisdom of appointing Neera.

  84. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    Maybe Lynne is right? Here is a video of two huge sexist and racist white supremacy loving and patriarchy upholding Bernie Bros agreeing with the “sexist af” article that our local privileged and blindly sexist local poster posted:

  85. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 3:51 pm | Permalink

    I don’t want Lynne to waste any time responding to my last comment because I am confident I already know she will say…No, I want Lynne to uphold her promise that she will explain how the Taibbi article was “sexist af” if/ when someone else shows curiosity about her reasoning. Anonymous expressed curiosity. Explain yourself Lynne.

  86. Jean Henry
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Anonymous: The Taibbi piece was posted on two threads here by two different people. He has an audience and he is in fact a professional political pundit more than a journalist.He’s more political operative than journalist in my book. Just read his twitter feed. He hasn’t gone as far as Sirota and been hired by a campaign to my knowledge but he’s a journalist with an agenda. What should we call those? I wish we wouldn’t call them journalists anymore.

    I’ve talked about how the piece plays to sexism elsewhere and is part of a larger pattern of playing to sexism– gaslighting women who complain about abuse by Bernie bros by repeatedly denying they exist when he knows they do (Dudes like Bob are his audience…) and outright acknowledged (by him) historical extreme sexist (but parodic he said after the fact…) journalism.

    I’m sure Lynne has her own take. but he’s gross.

  87. Jean Henry
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Anonymous– Lastly– as I’m sure you know– effective political action always has many players. No player in and of themselves makes or breaks an initiative– except maybe Mitch McConnell. No one here said anything like what you seem to have inferred: that Taibbi on his own would tank the nomination. I have no idea why you felt a need to resort to hyperbole. That’s a question you should ask yourself as it speaks to some misplaced anger.

    Tanden’s in trouble already. Taibbi’s efforts are likely to seal the deal. How many liberals will fight for her nomination (which will be necessary) with hit pieces like Taibbi’s out there? Most of the other noms will pass, so she’s the target. He’s just one of the arrows.

  88. Demetrius
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    You guys just don’t get it:

    Any criticism of any woman for any reason – no matter how powerful or well-connected – is always motivated merely by pure sexism.

    Any criticism of, or opposition to corporate-friendly, establishment Democrats from the left is “naive,” and anyone who participates in such is directly responsible for any past/present/future electoral losses.

    Black and brown people (POC) are incapable of speaking up or advocating for their own interests, so they depend on generous white liberals to explain how they feel, what they think, and what they need.

    White Trump voters (and white voters in general, really) are irredeemably racist – and are better off being ignored and/or actively discouraged from participating in the Democratic Party.

    Once you understand the pattern, everything begins to fall into place.

  89. Jean Henry
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    “Class privilege trumps (ha ha ha) race and gender every time.” — Wobblie

    Wow. Might want to look at the numbers… Money does not actually make women safe from domestic violence or rape and does not protect Black and Brown people from adverse outcomes in many areas. Health care is the easy one to get numbers on on that.

    You are simply wrong Wobblie but it’s clear that your own need to feel sorry for yourself vastly outstrips you capacity to consider the lived experience of others.

  90. Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    JH, I learned long ago that it is important to own one’s emotions. I always feel sorry for myself–no one else does, and my life has been one filled with sorrow (nothing unusual about that though).
    Money does make rich woman who have the sense to protect themselves safe from domestic violence and rape–Money lets rich woman have choices, that most people do not have. Rich Black and Brown people are as protected from “adverse outcomes in many areas” that destroy most other peoples lives.
    JH, your classist background obviously outstrips you capacity to consider the lived experience of others.

  91. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Is this article incorrect Jean?

  92. Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    What is more fun though, is watching the circle firing squad forming in Georgia. Maybe Biden will have a Democratic majority in Congress–what excuse will they have then–I think Manchin will be this decade’s Joe Lieberman (they are both named Joe–coincidence?).

  93. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:45 pm | Permalink


    Weakth does make any one individual safe from any number of calamities so I think you are trying to do a little sleight of hand—much like Clinton did in the video found in the Taibbi article. GEOGRAPHY / LOCATION is another layer of intersectional advantage/ disadvantage. A poor white kid in an area with crappy health care does not magically get great health care—because he is also disadvantaged in part by a GEOGRAPHY that he might share with all sorts of different races.

  94. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Also, I don’t think you really identified Taibbi’s sexism in the other thread, Jean. Would you mind sharing it here?

  95. Anonymous
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 5:56 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the explanation Jean.

    I didn’t see the part of the article where he was denying bernie bros exist or where he was attempting to gaslight anyone about their existence though. I have heard about his work in the exile but i have not read it. I found the linked naked capitalism piece above to be pretty insightful about that whole period. I find satire hard to parse sometimes so it is likely their work wouldn’t have registered for me but I haven’t seen anything credible that indicates he mistreated women. Finding someone gross doesn’t mean they’re sexist, does it? It sounds to me as though you just don’t like him. Perhaps you have some misplaced anger that you should ask yourself about.

    I think Tanden is where she is because of herself and the interests she serves-the things she’s advocated for, the stances she’s taken etc. If she were a good candidate for that role I think she’d be able to withstand scrutiny, no? especially if it were just a smear piece not grounded in anything substantive.

  96. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 6:03 pm | Permalink


    When you say you have addressed the Taibbi article elsewhere are you referring to the “2020 election” thread where you seemed to be admitting that you had not yet actually read the article that you and Lynne were pointing to as another example of Taibbi’s sexism?

    Here is an uncomfortable question for Lynne: Have you also not read the article? I ask because you said that Wobblies posting the article was the one piece of evidence that you would like to offer to support your claim that Wobblie is a sexist. You also said you would explain yourself if someone else besides FF expressed curiosity. Anonymous expressed curiosity. Read the article and get back to us ok?

  97. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Maybe Jean and Lynne are right? Neera sounds super quailed to be in a position of power. Stories like this really make her seem super trustworthy. If someone does not trust her it is probably because they are sexist.

  98. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    I for one agree with Jean and Lynne. We need more qualified women in government who are courageous enough to speculate on schemes for making the bombing of African nations (and thereby turning them into giant slave markets) more palatable. We need women who have the foresight that Americans might be more accepting of costly wars if they understand that the costs will be offset by all the oil we are planning to steal. If you disagree with FF, Jean and Lynne then it is probably because you are sexist.,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/

  99. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    Nobody should call into question Neera’s qualifications for punching/ shoving one of her male political opponents? FF, Jean and Lynne believe that your double standard is showing if you disagree. Do you know what else is showing if your disagree? Answer: Your sexism!

  100. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    FF, Jean and Lynne believe if you think Cuomo exposed Neera as being a little full of shit, then you are probably a sexist.

  101. Anonymous
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 9:55 pm | Permalink

    Speaking of COVID.

    NYT BREAKING NEWS: At least 2,760 people were reported dead from Covid-19 in the U.S. on Wednesday, more than on any other day since the pandemic began.

  102. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 2, 2020 at 10:00 pm | Permalink


    Don’t worry I am not going to steal your thunder by explaining how Wobblie is sexist for sharing a “sexist af” article. That is your job. It is time for you to explain to the more privileged members of our community how Taibbi’s article is “sexist af”. I have your back sister! Go for it!

  103. Posted December 3, 2020 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Some smart folks discussing how to get to a green new deal.

  104. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    I have the privilege of being able to get glimpses into the email exchanges of highly qualified women. Here is a highly qualified Neera explaining her desire to implement a strategy to use “brown women” to smear people into supporting the queen of war mongers. If you don’t like using identity politics to garner support for war mongers then you are probably a sexist.

  105. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    We are ready for you Lynne. Put that cherry on top. Explain how the article is “sexist af”.

  106. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Any criticism of any woman for any reason – no matter how powerful or well-connected – is always motivated merely by pure sexism.

    One way sexist men try to dismiss valid criticism from female voices is by suggesting that women are just saying that ALL or ANY criticism of any woman is motivated by sexism. It is similar to how men like to tell women that their actual lived experiences are invalid. It sucks and I expected better from you Demetrius.

    FF, just seeing how you reacted to Jean’s explanation has made it even more clear to me that it would be futile to spend any energy on you.

  107. Anonymous
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 11:16 am | Permalink


  108. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    “One way sexist men try to dismiss valid criticism from female voices is by suggesting that women are just saying that ALL or ANY criticism of any woman is motivated by sexism.”

    So Lynne thinks the criticisms of Neera are invalid? Cool. She should defend Neera against the actual criticisms then. Lynne’s allegation of sexism here hinges on the criticisms of Neera being invalid (and merely based in sexism). Instead of defending Neera against the specific criticisms Lynne just offers a fresh layer of BS sexism allegations to cover up her prior layer of BS sexism allegations.

  109. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    Lynne being full of shit is not the part that disturbs me the most. A lot of people are full of shit. What disturbs me about Lynne is that she tries to cover up the fact that she is full of shit by levying false allegations against anyone who points out how full of shit she is.

    If you think Lynne is full of shit, though, you are probably a sexist.

  110. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    This is just a hunch I have: I don’t believe the road to justice and equality for all will be paved with millions of Lynne’s bullshit nuggets. I know it must break her heart to hear me say it but I just don’t think it will be happening.

  111. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    There are plenty of valid criticisms of Neera Tanden. And there is plenty of sexism behind others. Sometimes there is a little of both such as when GOP Senators complain that her tweets are too mean, while simultaneously accepting the much more abusive tweets that men like Trump make on the regular. As in, meanness in tweeting is a valid criticism but it becomes sexist when the same behavior is accepted in men.

  112. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Anonymous, LOL. I saw that video! She seemed a little drunk.

  113. Jean Henry
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    You can not be shamed unless you feel shame already. Usually that’s because you have done something shameful.

    I’m endlessly amazed at how ppl interpret those Podesta emails. I’m no fan of politics because the kind of strategizing evident in this and other emails is how you win the game, but that’s a pretty fundamental reality. I’m not under the impression that Tanden was forcing anyone to support HRC. She was simply asking them to apply pressure re Times coverage which it’s own writers and editors have admitted was shown via analysis to be biased against her.

    Lastly FF, Do you refer to Trump as ‘Donald’ orBiden as ‘Joe’? No. So why ‘Hillary’ and ‘Neera.’ Do you know them? Try harder to not be a douche.

  114. Jean Henry
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    Lynne– FF is blind to any double standard he or others he agrees with exhibit. That’s been well shown.

  115. Jean
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    FF– In what universe is that honest conversation between a political operative and a left leaning ‘journalist’ about inside ball on the HRC campaign in any way a condemnation of Tanden for the cabinet position?

    You are really reaching…

  116. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 1:37 pm | Permalink

    So Lynne’s argument is that Wobblie is a sexist not because she can demonstrate that there is sexism in the article that he shared; instead Wobblie is sexist because there are other people in the world who have called Neera mean? What Lynne is saying might be true. I just don’t understand what it has to do with her alleging that Wobblie is sexist.

  117. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    I will defer to Jean’s expertise on the millions of tactics a person can deploy to avoid feeling shame. I have no comment on the psychology of shame avoidance.

    The clue for me was that she wanted to use “brown women” to do the shaming. If she wanted to shame people into not criticizing Hillary by using arguments and reason then why the importance placed on using “brown women” to do the shaming?

    Maybe you have some insights to share? Did the media people on that list do something worthy of a shaming?

  118. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    In fairness to Jean’s point I do not think that one little insight into Neera Tanden’s disqualifies her by itself. It was the weakest criticism I offered. People make mistakes. A mistake does not disqualify anybody from anything. Neera Tanden has made lot of big and small mistakes. I would expect that a normal person would understand that you need to judge whether or not a person is qualified based upon patterns of behavior.

  119. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Re:Lynne– FF is blind to any double standard he or others he agrees with exhibit. That’s been well shown.

    Yes, so well shown that I really don’t need to engage. :)

    Re:So Lynne’s argument is that Wobblie is a sexist not because she can demonstrate that there is sexism in the article that he shared; instead Wobblie is sexist because there are other people in the world who have called Neera mean?

    No. that isn’t my argument at all.

  120. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    I do sometimes refer to Biden as “Joe”. I always refer to Trump as Trump. Lately I have been referring to Clinton as the Queen of Warmongers or Bill. I don’t mind calling Neera Tanden “Tanden” or “Neera Tanden” especially if calling Tanden “Neera” makes you want to call FF “douche”.

  121. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    I am glad that is not your argument Lynne because that would be really stupid. What is your argument for calling Wobblie a sexist based upon his sharing the article?

  122. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Wait. Don’t tell me. I don’t care any more. If you want to keep your promise then explain it to Anonymous.

    Have a good day :)

  123. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    I think Jean explained it fairly well. Mostly the issue is that Taibbi’s main criticism of Tanden is that she doesn’t like Sanders and sometimes her followers were trolls. He is essentially being critical of her of things HE does too. He *hates* HRC and his followers troll. Plus there is a tone in the article. Add in his absolute dismissal of HRC rhetoric about sexism and racism too. But the bit that is MOST sexist is the way he dismisses that there were horrible Bernie Bros out there who were straight-up abusive (I am talking death threats, rape threats, and doxing but also more subtle forms of abuse).

    And also, looking at that piece in the context of Taibbi’s whole body of work makes it seem even more sexist than it did initially. A man like that shouldn’t even have a voice and it says something about those who give him one.

  124. Posted December 3, 2020 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    I readily admit that I am sexist, racist and I hate rich people too–so what. The point is not to find all the ways that I am disagreeable (we are just scratching the surface with these 3)–but rather to seek out the ways in which despite sexism, racism and class bigotry we can reach agreement. Even though I am as evil as all other white men, we still agreed on the need to get rid of Trump–wasn’t that much more fun and productive? But then some folks are working part and parcel with the ruling elite to divide and rule us lowly folks.

    I see where Kyle is being handed over for trial. The Wisconsin prosecutors are very concerned about Kyle’s grifter lawyers using Kyle’s fund raising potential to engage in self-dealing with the money to clear up other debts. We will see if the prosecutors are successful in keeping them from practice in Wisconsin. Michigan does not have reciprocity with the California Bar either–we think there standards are too low.

  125. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Yes, wobblie. I imagine that there is a LOT we agree on. Medicare-For-All, better regulation of big corporations, better social safety net, etc. It is also true that economic policies can help with SOME of the racism and sexism in our society so I am never opposed to them but I also think it is worthwhile having policies that do directly address those issues. Part of my concern though is that women who will advance policy in that direction are treated as if they don’t for no reason that I can see other than their gender.

    An individual’s biases are less important. I can’t remember who told me this anecdote but it was about a gay man who was saying that he would rather have folks who call him “fag” but vote for policy that helps him than folks who would never call others names but who regularly will vote for policy that harms gay people. I think there is something to that even though of course the former can be very painful.

  126. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    So my question is this: Is there a reason to believe that Tanden will not move things in a progressive direction? Considering where we are now under four years of Trump, I don’t think there is. The main criticism I have seen on that score is that she at some point called Social Security an “entitlement” which seems odd to me. I mean, I feel entitled to Social Security. I have paid into it all these years so god damn right it is an entitlement. I think some folks think the word means getting something you don’t deserve since it is used so ironically so often and people have a hard time with sarcasm/irony.

  127. Posted December 3, 2020 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    My good buddy Bob, a communist from the UP, regularly referred to himself as a working class fag. He seemed proud of the label, but this is like 30 years ago, so times change as do the manner in which we refer to ourselves. Here is another strike against me, I like Tulsi Gabbard, one of the few honest courageous politicians we have–this is what she had to say about Tandem
    ” Neera Tanden thinks the way to reduce our deficit is to steal oil from countries like Libya to pay us back for bombing them, toppling their government, and turning them into a failed state. Joe Biden Is this really the person you want in charge of managing our budget?”

  128. Posted December 3, 2020 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    I have heard a couple of different theories concerning the Tanden nomination. I can not imagine, given her history and who has bankrolled her these many decades, that she will “move things in a progressive” direction. Her organization engaged in union busting, she has advocated for cuts in SS and other elements of our social safety net and seems to be a war monger. The Republicans don’t like her because she is abrasive and calls them names. I don’t like her because of the policies she has advocated for almost 30 years. She was the corporate right wing of the Democrats until they let neo-cons like Kristol into the party.

  129. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    Yes, one thing about Tanden is that she likes to throw out ideas but I wonder why Gabbard thinks that particular idea is so awful. What Tanden actually said btw was:

    “We have a giant deficit. They have a lot of oil. Most Americans would choose not to engage in the world because of that deficit. If we want to continue to engage in the world, gestures like having oil rich countries partially pay us back doesn’t seem crazy to me.”

    So why is Gabbard being so disingenuous?

  130. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    I think this guy puts it into context well

  131. Posted December 3, 2020 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    You obviously did not look at the link because Tulsi posted the entire email. This email was in the context of the attack on Libya. Trump agreed with Tanden, also calling on oil rich countries to pay us when we attacked their enemies. Foreign policy for sale, anyone?

    I wonder, are you opposed to Trump vetoing the National Defense Authorization bill? Just in case you want to have a knee jerk response this might make it easy, Tulsi supports Trump vetoing the bill.
    Tulsi Gabbard
    Donald J. Trump I fully support you on this. Please don’t back down. The freedom and future of our country is at stake.
    Donald J. Trump
    December 1 at 9:47 PM ·
    Section 230, which is a liability shielding gift from the U.S. to “Big Tech” (the only companies in America that have it – corporate welfare!), is a serious threat to our National Security & Election Integrity. Our Country can never be safe & secure if we allow it to stand. Therefore, if the very dangerous & unfair Section 230 is not completely terminated as part of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), I will be forced to unequivocally VETO the Bill when sent to the very beautiful Resolute desk. Take back America NOW. Thank you!

  132. Lynne
    Posted December 3, 2020 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t click on the link at first but now I have and I don’t think the rest of the email supports Gabbard’s view. She has a point too. Do we want to cut social services to support our military endeavors. I get it that to some that shouldn’t even be a question. But to try to take that quote and turn it into some hawkish stance doesn’t seem fair.

    Did Trump veto that bill? I mean I can see why Gabbard would try to encourage him to veto it. I never supported it. But I am pretty sure Trump signed it or at least he did sign some bill authorizing increases in military spending.

  133. Posted December 3, 2020 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    I know people thought I was joking,

  134. Posted December 4, 2020 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Lynne the Defense Authorization bill is current legislation.

  135. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 4, 2020 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Jean is right that the emails are open to interpretation. I just don’t think all interpretations should be considered equal. IMO Tanden’s email reveals something even worse about Tanden’s character than Tulsi is saying. Tulsi is being too kind.

    When I read the email, the obstacle Tanden is trying to overcome is American sentiment against “engaging the world” which is a euphemism for dropping bombs on countries. She is not trying to solve the deficit. She is not trying to figure out creative ways to keep social programs alive. She is trying to figure out ways to ensure that American sentiment does not become an obstacle to the interests of the military industrial complex.

  136. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 4, 2020 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Hey Wobblie!

    You sexist bastard! Buckle your seatbelt! I think we are going to have a lot of video to analyze together real soon!

  137. Wobblie
    Posted December 4, 2020 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    I will leave the fastidious facsimile review to you. I’ll tell you what I see and you can point out how wrong I am

    Did you see how Kyle’s grifter lawyer split as soon as his profiteering off Kyle’s distress was exposed by prosecutors —poor ethics seems to be a common problem with death cult lawyers. Linn and Gulliani Come to mind.

  138. Posted December 7, 2020 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    Trump “passed on buying additional vaccine” which will mean it will not available until June.

    ABC News: only enough doses from Pfizer for 50 million people. Trump is holding a summit for vaccines, Pfizer & Maderna won’t be there, and nobody from incoming Biden Administration of course. Trump passed on expanding the order when Pfizer gave him a chance.

  139. Posted December 7, 2020 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    I assume HW is busy threatening the lives of election officials. He’s such a great patriot. You must be so proud of your Trunpanzee comrades, FF.

  140. Posted December 10, 2020 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    It occurred to me today that EOS would have almost certainly survived the pandemic had he lived in Taiwan.

    Taiwan has a functioning and competent federal government. That country of almost 24 million people has had seven deaths.

    The US has now exceeded 300,000 deaths.

  141. Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    FF, looking more and more like the “raid” on Jones house was straight up police state intimidation tactics. Starting to look like the warrant was based on fraudulent assertions by the cops. But I really like how you and JH think a lot a like. You don’t like some one’s politics–go straight to the personal attacks and slander–who really cares about scientific, political or legal nuances what is most important is scoring some cheap shots against my enemies. Self-righteousness, it is what makes America an exceptional country. MAGA

  142. Lynne
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    I suspect that DeSantis knew about Jones’s legal issues before the raid and that was a factor. I think about how the NAACP had to pick a particular person to refuse to go to the back of the bus. They picked Rosa Parks because she was so clean and didn’t have anything in her past with which to discredit her! They knew that white dudes will go for character attacks and also that they are effective. DeSantis knew that because of her history, he would be more likely to get away with abusing his power in this way. Men like FF will *always* be on their side if there is anything in the victim’s past that could be looked on unfavorably.

  143. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 10:11 am | Permalink


    If they got a search warrant on her for essentially sending an email then a big injustice was done to her. I of course would be on the side of bringing the perpetrators to justice.

  144. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 10:18 am | Permalink


    If all of the crap you assume in your narrative turns out to be true I will write letters demanding DeSantis removal. I will write letters demanding the DOH official who asked for the warrant be removed.

    Is that clear? *Always* full of shit.

  145. Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Did anyone here read the Texas AG’s filing the Supreme Court just rejected? I was excited to learn of the existence of two more states added to the United States…”New Nevada” and “New California”

    Trunpanzee incompetence

  146. Jean Henry
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 4, 2020 at 2:52 pm | Permalink
    Hey Wobblie!
    You sexist bastard! Buckle your seatbelt! I think we are going to have a lot of video to analyze together real soon!

    — Where is it FF?

  147. Posted December 12, 2020 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Just learned something new. I have known for years about the insult applied by racist to my black and brown brothers and sisters–mud people. Until this morning I never knew where that derogatory expression originated. I now know it was at least popularized by James Henry Hammond, a Governor and US Senator from South Carolina. In a speech before Congress he explained the “Mudsill” theory of social order.
    His speech is extremely enlightening, and I believe could help MM explain how this chapter in American history, is just one chapter that has “story” elements that reach back to the founding of the Republic, and prior chapters were prologue to future additions to the story.
    Not only was Hammond an advocate of racialism, but a clear advocate of plutocracy. The first part of the attached speech in which he explains the “mudsill” theory of society. The second part of the speech addresses the dangers of “free labor” and how working folks will ultimately use the ballot box to deprive the better folks of their privilege.
    This is the same ideology that permeates our current elites. It helps explain the total disregard for human lives during the pandemic. It is only mudsill folks who are truly at risk of dying, the super- expensive and rare fetal drug cocktail that seems to ensure rapid recovery from the virus is only available to our betters. exactly in keeping with the long standing elite ideology.

  148. Posted December 18, 2020 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    The Trump Administration continuing to fuck up and costing lives.

    Millions Of COVID-19 Vaccine Doses Stuck In Warehouses Until Federal Orders, Pfizer Says

  149. Posted December 18, 2020 at 4:28 am | Permalink

    Governors say CDC cutting vaccine allocations

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.


BUY LOCAL... or shop at Amazon through this link Banner Initiative Pythias