Military pawns, racist scum, and living in a nation where no-one’s at the helm… Welcome to the #TrumpShutdown

As we discussed last week, in hopes of avoiding a government shutdown, a bipartisan group of Senators led by Lindsey Graham and Dick Durbin went to the White House with a plan that, as they relayed to the President, would pass through both houses of Congress. This compromise legislation, they explained to Donald Trump and his advisors, would, among other things, both increase funding for border security and protect the approximately 800,000 immigrants who came here as children and have been protected under DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals) since the Obama administration. Donald Trump, however, likely with input from immigration hardliners in his administration, like Stephen Miller, rejected this compromise package, calling it “big step backwards.”

Based on what we’ve heard from Graham and Durbin, it would appear as though the aforementioned immigration hardliners within the administration had two major issues with the compromise legislation. First, they wanted for it to include funding for the impractical and ridiculous southern border wall that Trump had promised his racist followers during the campaign, which it didn’t. And, second, they wanted for it to strip immigrants, like those from “shithole” nations like Haiti, of their temporary protected status, which the compromise package also did not do.

So, just to recap… Donald Trump was given a funding package that would have passed both houses of Congress, protected the 800,000 young immigrants covered under DACA, which is widely popular across both red and blue America, and increased funding for border security. Instead, he chose to push back, demanding a less fact-based, and more racist approach to immigration. And, when he didn’t get it, he forced the government into shutdown.

So, now, with Republicans refusing to bring the so-called Gang of Six compromise bill to the floor of either the House or the Senate, as they’ve been told that, even if it passes, Trump won’t sign it, the blame game has begun in earnest, with both sides claiming that the government shut down because of the other. [As of right now, #TrumpShutdown is the number one trending tag on Twitter. #SchumerShutdown is another five spots down on the list.]

The Republicans, never ones to have qualms about playing dirty, have started to suggest not only that the Democrats are to blame for the shutdown, but that they are playing a dangerous game with the lives of our men and women in uniform… Here’s a photo of Vice President Mike Pence today in Jordan, using American troops “as props for a partisan political message.” [That quote comes from conservative columnist Bill Kristol‏.]

According to the Washington Post, the Vice President told the service men and women surrounding him that “they deserve better,” adding “a minority in the Senate has decided to play politics with military pay.”

What Pence neglected to mention was that, during previous shutdowns, Democrats and Republicans alike have come together to pass bipartisan legislation to ensure that our men and women in uniform continue to be paid. Furthermore, he didn’t tell them that Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill had just introduced such a plan on the floor of the U.S. Senate, only to have it blocked by Republican Senator Majority Leader Mitch McConnell… Here, if you don’t believe it, is the video proof.

So, for the better part of a year, the Republicans have been delaying action on DACA and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), which covers approximately 9 million kids in poverty, knowing that they could be used as bargaining chips in these budget negotiations. And, now, they have the audacity to turn around and say that it’s the Democrats who are playing games with people’s lives. It’s absolutely sickening… Again, just to reiterate, Trump had a deal on his desk that would have funded the military, protected our young immigrants, and reauthorized CHIP, but he turned it down for the ridiculous wall that he had sworn to us during the campaign wouldn’t cost the American people a dime.

As for why Trump did this, it would seem that immigration hardliners within the administration, like Stephen Miller, have his ear. Here, if you have any doubt, is a little tidbit I just picked up from Lindsey Graham on The Daily Beast.

Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) targeted White House policy advisor Stephen Miller as an unproductive force in the immigration fight that has been at the center of the government shutdown debate. “As long as Stephen Miller is in charge of negotiating immigration, we are going nowhere,” Graham said to reporters. Graham noted that President Trump’s “heart is right on this issue,” but said that Miller’s restrictive immigration views have “never been in the mainstream in the Senate” and has made him “an outlier for years.”

Here, for those of you who can’t read, is the video.

Trump’s idea for a southern border wall, for those of you who haven’t been following along, was always stupid. And everyone who knows anything about either immigration or border security has known this since day one. Even the conservative CATO Institute called his plan “impractical, expensive, and ineffective.” But it motivated the Trump base, so he kept it up. The imagery of this imposing wall resonated with the isolationist, “America First”-chanting folks who attended his rallies and bought his MAGA merch. Not only did they apparently think this wall would somehow magically get them better jobs, and stop the surge of crime and drugs, but they honestly believed Trump when he said it wouldn’t cost us a penny. [“Mexico will pay for the wall!,” the conman-turned-reality-television-star said repeatedly to great applause.] Most of us, of course, knew it was bullshit, but middle America ate it up, and, in the end, it drove enough people to the polls to put him in the White House. And now, apparently, Trump feels as though he has to deliver something to his willfully ignorant base, regardless of the fact that almost everyone says it would be ineffective. And it just keeps getting more ridiculous and surreal by the day… When border officers said, not too long ago, that Trump’s wall would make it more difficult for them to do their jobs, as their view of the border would be obstructed, Trump had a solution. “(We’ll make it so that you can) see through it,” he said… His own Chief of Staff, John Kelly, has since said that Trump’s understanding of such things during the campaign was “uninformed,” and yet this charade continues, thanks to people like Miller telling Trump that he has to make good on this promise.

And make no mistake… this shutdown is over the President’s transparent wall. It’s not about CHIP, or DACA, which people on both sides of the aisle pretty much agree on. White House Budget Director Mick Mulvaney as much as confirmed it when he said that we’re going through this now because, during negotiations, Schumer didn’t offer enough to pay for the wall.

But, to hear Trump and his supporters tell it, the shutdown is because Democrats don’t support the military, and want open borders, allowing “illegal immigrants to pour into our nation unchecked.” Here’s just one of Trump’s several tweets about it from this morning.

Of course, none of this is true. The compromise budget package, as I noted above, includes increases for border security. And if there’s a single Democrat serving in Congress who believes we should have an “open border” with Mexico, I’m not aware of them. No one that I know of wants an open border. That doesn’t mean, however, that they want to throw away billions of dollars on an impractical and ineffective wall that people can tunnel under and launch drugs over. As for Trump’s attempt to paint the Democrats as being against our men and women in uniform, I’ll let Senator Tammy Duckworth, who lost both of her legs while serving in Iraq, respond.

[Duckworth: “ I will not be lectured about what our military needs by a five-deferment draft dodger.“]

I could say more, but I think you get the point. For all their marketing efforts on social media, this is not a #SchumerShutdown. This is a #TrumpShutdown. And the Republican leadership doesn’t give a fuck about either sick kids in poverty or members of the United States military. Thankfully, however, it seems as though more Republicans in Congress are beginning to step up and state the obvious. Even Rand Paul said today that the compromise bill should be brought to a vote.

So, wherever you live, look up the phone numbers of your elected representatives, and give them a call. If they’re Republicans, demand that they bring the compromise bill to the floor for a vote. And, if they’re Democrats, encourage them to stand strong for the 800,000 Dreamers and the 9 million families that depend on CHIP. This fight might get ugly, but the truth is on our side, and we shouldn’t cave in to the pressure of the far right and their adolescent wet dream of an enormous, glittering wall that will magically keep out everyone who isn’t white.

Oh… It’s also worth noting that this weekend, as the Republican party allowed our federal government to collapse rather than stand up to the racists in the Trump administration, millions of American women and their supporters took to the streets to celebrate the first anniversary of the Women’s March on Washington, and make it be known that there will be hell to pay at the ballot box come this November. Hopefully their presence helps put a little steel in the backbones of Congressional Democrats, who are now being subjected to all kinds of attacks from the far right.

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243 Comments

  1. Iron Lung
    Posted January 21, 2018 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    I can’t express more how awful this country has become.

    And not simply because of Trump.

    America is a xenophobic surveillance state of scared children.

  2. Anonymous
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    It isn’t only sick poor children, young immigrants and the military who are suffering. The wealthy at Mar-A-Lago, are having to eat caviar from plastic spoons during this shutdown.

    https://twitter.com/annalecta/status/955116544601837569

  3. Topher Spiro by proxy
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    GOP leadership rejects deal to open the government supported by Republican Senators Alexander, Collins, Corker, Flake, Graham, Murkowski, and others…and even RAND PAUL!!! Blame is easy to assign with this smoking gun.

    https://twitter.com/TopherSpiro/status/955239077388980224

  4. Anonymous
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Tammy Duckworth also attempted to pass a bill that would ensure military pay and death benefits during the shutdown. Senate Majority Whip John Cornyn objected.

  5. Meta
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    The issue seems to be that Trump cannot articulate what he wants.

    New York Times: “A President Not Sure of What He Wants Complicates the Shutdown Impasse”

    When President Trump mused last year about protecting immigrants brought to the United States illegally as children, calling them “these incredible kids,” aides implored him privately to stop talking about them so sympathetically.

    When he batted around the idea of granting them citizenship over a Chinese dinner at the White House last year with Democratic leaders, Mr. Trump’s advisers quickly drew up a list of hard-line demands to send to Capitol Hill that they said must be included in any such plan.

    And twice over the past two weeks, Mr. Trump has privately told lawmakers he is eager to strike a deal to extend legal status to the so-called Dreamers, only to have his chief of staff, John F. Kelly, and senior policy adviser, Stephen Miller, make clear afterward that such a compromise was not really in the offing — unless it also included a host of stiffer immigration restrictions.

    As the government shutdown continued for its second day on Sunday, one thing was clear to both sides of the negotiations to end it: The president was either unwilling or unable to articulate the immigration policy he wanted, much less understand the nuances of what it would involve.

    Both sides have reason to be confused. Each time Mr. Trump has edged toward compromise with Democrats, he has appeared to be reined in by his own staff, which shares the hawkish immigration stance that fueled his campaign. And Republican leaders, bruised by past experience with a president who has rarely offered them consistent cover on a politically challenging issue, are loath to guess at his intentions.

    The result has been a paralysis not only at the White House but on Capitol Hill, complicating the chances for an ultimate resolution of how to protect hundreds of thousands of young undocumented immigrants, the problem underlying the shutdown. And it has raised questions not only about Mr. Trump’s grasp of the issue that animated his campaign and energizes his core supporters, but his leadership.

    “There’s a real sense that there’s a disconnect between the president and his staff on immigration issues, and people on all sides are seeking to exploit that disconnect,” said Alex Conant, a Republican strategist who advised Senator Marco Rubio of Florida, one of Mr. Trump’s rivals, in his 2016 bid for the White House. “This is what happens when you have a president who is not clear and consistent on what he will accept: It emboldens all parties to take positions that they won’t compromise.

    Read more:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/21/us/politics/trump-government-shutdown.html

  6. wobblie
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Always remember that it does not matter what the people want. The needs of the Empire Trump all other considerations.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/new-poll-shows-public-overwhelmingly-opposed-to-endless-us-military-interventions/

  7. Jcp2
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    For those who don’t hang out in waiting rooms and read the magazines.
    http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2017-silence-breakers/

  8. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

    Why would he take that deal? That’s terrible.

    https://www.newsmax.com/politics/trump-analysis-immigration-plan/2018/01/19/id/838152/

    Team Trump’s assessment, according to the leaked doc titled “Flake-Graham-Durbin Proposal Would Cripple Border Security and Expand Chain Migration:”

    Proposal wouldn’t come close to funding the border wall, at less than 10 percent
    Keeps and expands chain migration
    Fails to end the visa lottery program
    Adds provisions for future protection of Dreamers which increase illegal immigration
    And No. 5: offers amnesty to nearly 3 million DACA recipients and their families, a group 5-times larger than the Dreamers themselves, Axios reports.

  9. Tony
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

    I’m just relieved it’s over. I got tired of Trump and his GOP goons referring to a bunch of innocent kids as “illegal immigrants” and saying the Dems were choosing them over real Americans.

    Maybe I’ve forgotten or misunderstood the implicit lessons of being American, but isn’t it distinctly an American act to stand up for people when no one else will? Their whole messaging strategy is disgusting. They’re pitting the military against DACA kids. I’m tired of their zero sum game approach. They are cruel, soulless bastards.

  10. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    They might be innocent and they were all kids not too long ago. Why should people who came here in a certain range of time be allowed to be here though? It’s mega-gerrymandering for one thing. For another it undermines the Constitution. It’s the totalitarian tiptoe. First it’s only people from that certain time period, then it’s more and more until it “progresses” to no border at all like the EU. Trump is willing to give amnesty but the Dems have to be willing to fund the wall. That’s what doing a deal is. You have to give up something to get something you want a little more. Of course the wall puts a serious dent in the no borders thing! That’s why they are dragging their heels on funding it.

  11. Jean Henry
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    They positioned kids against kids as well in threatening to cut CHIP if the Dems didn’t back down on DACA. Trump signed the extension. Not clear what the Dems got beyond likely empty promises on DACA. We’ll see. It ain’t over for sure.

  12. Jean Henry
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    This sucks.
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/did-schumer-cave

  13. wobblie
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 10:09 pm | Permalink

    JH, the Dems are spinning that they won this round because they got CHIP funded for 6 years and now it can no longer be held hostage by the Republicans. In 3 weeks we will have another show down, where DACA will be the only hostage the Republicans will have as leverage. But the Dems (under Shumer and Durbin) have already signaled that they will give Trump everything he originally wanted (full funding for his wall). How much more the Dem’s give up in the way of ” immigration reform” is still “open”.

    I suspect in true “centrist” fashion in exchange for saving the Dreamers, they will give the Republicans all the other “reforms” that Miller and his ilk want– The Democrats will see it as a victory because they will take immigration from the Republicans as a campaign issue.

    Thus the Dreamers will forever be separated from their parents and other family who will (or have been deported). The war on Hispanics will continue, and discrimination will achieve new legal supports.

  14. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2018 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

    I can understand taking the chance of entering illegally but they know they can be deported when they do it and they know the kids can too. You knew you could get caught that one time you stole a candy bar. If you got away with it then the candy was yours but if you got caught then you were in trouble. You can’t blame the clerk or whoever for busting your dumb ass though!

  15. Tony
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:07 am | Permalink

    @Hyborian – That was exactly the deal the Dems put on the table. Include DACA and we’ll fund your stupid wall. Scary forehead monster face Stephen Miller kept nixing the deal. When Schumer walked out of the WH back on Friday, that’s the deal they thought they had until the Nazis in the WH got a hold of it and the WH reneged on the deal. I mean, I get it, right? White skin people good. Brown skin people bad.

  16. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    How did they fund they wall? They offered less than 10%. Oh, yeah it’s so racist not to let everyone in the world just come on in without even being counted. Do you keep your door wide open while you sleep?

  17. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 6:49 am | Permalink

    HW, how long do you think it is going to take to build the wall? 10% funding for a 10 year project seems about like full funding this year. You are so completely ignorant of how appropriations work. You only fund projects one year at a time.

  18. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    He said we can build it in one year. DJT has a track record of coming in ahead of time and under budget in his projects. Keeping chain migration and the lottery? It’s Democrat stalling.

  19. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Hw yea right. He also said we would all have the “best health care” and “I’ll bring the jobs back home” and “The Mexicans will pay for it”. Your fantasy world becomes quit trying.

  20. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    Jobs are coming back, dork. Health care will get fixed in time and I’ll bet the trade imbalance with Mexico will too.

  21. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    Why did you have to call him a dork? The statement would have been perfect and corrrect without the name calling. You just debase yourself and the cause with these off the cuff insults. Be more effective. Please.

  22. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    “You are so completely ignorant”

    ‘Your fantasy world becomes quit trying.”

    The constant barrage of statements like that from people here calls for it I would say. Self-defense. Notice I don’t start that way.

  23. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    Jean Henry does an extreme version of it. I have tremendous patience but the constant abuse around here pretty much wore it out.

  24. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    When they go low we go high. Try not to resort to their juvenile tactics no matter how much it’s called for. Think big picture.

  25. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    I do that a lot. Look at my post history vs. what I am relying to. It’s not close to being equal at all. Sometimes it is a deterrent to reflect ridicule back to its’ origin.

  26. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    I know. But you’d have to agree that it doesn’t work as a deterrent?

    Now did you see the growth numbers for the economy, close to 3%? Did you see what Apple is doing? We might even get dome inflation and wage growth. Hold on.

  27. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Some

  28. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    A lot of times it does work to emphasize a point. Not only do they have to ess the eff up but they have to eat what they are trying to dish out.

  29. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Surely your knowledge should be used for enlightening – not for diminishing others?

    What’s Trump going to do ar Davos?

  30. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    At

  31. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    It feels so good to be done with the ‘managed decline’ of the economy (the USA) and heading in the right direction. Year two is going to be awesome in so many ways.

  32. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    They can be enlightened if they want. I think it is accurate, not diminishing. Superfluous, sure but I enjoy firing back sometimes and seeing them fall.

  33. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    What does he always do? Wreck ’em!

  34. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    They are all falling away aren’t they? Pretty soon it will be just you.

    I can’t wait to see Trump wreck em in Davos. This will be epic!

  35. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Imminent developments in US politics will be so devastating for their “narrative” they will hang their heads in shame. No more abuse, no more lies. Reality itself will seem to seismically shift this year but to me it will be the public consciousness aligning to what I have always known is true.

  36. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    yawn

  37. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Congratulations. All your studying will have paid off.

    If does seem like every week is a new revelation or challenge and the world does go on.

  38. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Oh -oh. He’s back. Don’t fall for it HW!

  39. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    Too busy rockin’

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywJmDBI_ZjM

  40. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    “He said we can build it in one year. DJT has a track record of coming in ahead of time and under budget in his projects.” –HW
    Setting aside the reality that public works construction (v. private) requires approval and funding by congress, Trump’s frequent assertions of “ahead of time and under budget” are, not surprisingly, over-stated at best. He hasn’t engaged in much active construction in the past 20 years. He simply licenses his name to other projects. Where he has been involved (DC, Chicago, and Baku Trump Hotels), the projects have not, in fact, come in under budget and ahead of schedule. At least as far as anyone can tell because the financials are not available to the public. And he often moves the projected dates for completion to make them appear on time. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/10/03/trumps-claim-that-his-hotel-in-d-c-is-under-budget-ahead-of-schedule/?utm_term=.28c541ca48c7

    What we do know, does not look good in any case. He blamed Deutsche Bank and the financial collapse of 2008 for Chicago. That project came in a year late and failed to meet it’s debt obligations. He made false claims about DC. Baku never opened, but in that case he caused both delays and over-extensions, not to mention that he partnered with a family known to be laundering money for the Iranian revolutionary Red Guard.
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/13/donald-trumps-worst-deal

    Further, he is known for not paying contractors, including my sister who was never paid $20 grand for contract furniture– the only time in 15 years that a hotel developer has failed to pay her. Not paying what’s owed is one way to come in under budget. https://www.npr.org/2017/01/11/509168365/trump-d-c-hotel-contractors-say-theyre-owed-millions

    Trump is criminal in his business dealings on multiple levels, but he is rich and his company is privately held, so he has so far escaped accountability. His own account of his own strengths is laughable in every regard.

  41. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Sad– I suggest you reconsider your assertion that HW goes high, or ever has, since he started commenting here. It seems you buy HW’s self-billing just as many like HW (and you?) buy Trump’s. Maybe you, like FF, feel you can appeal to HW’s better nature. But it appears he doesn’t have one.
    In attempting to moderate discourse with a narcissist. it’s natural to simply concede to his reality so as not to incite his wrath. But his reality is inherently distorted well beyond the norm and so the mediator is drawn into false equivalence. Anyone trying to get anything but wrath from a narcissist will find themselves tip-toeing around his delusion and flattering his limited strengths, as you have here with HW. Flattering a narcissist may spare you his invective, but it won’t engender better behavior towards anyone else.
    There is no high road for HW.
    EOS is sometimes capable of it, to her credit.
    I do not feel bad about using invective in a local blog against people whose political viewpoints threaten my bodily agency and the health and well being of others, especially since those viewpoints place a very dangerous man in office. I especially don’t feel bad about using invective and condescension against abusive narcissists like HW. It may be a waste of time, but at least I’m not compromising my integrity as you and FF are by attempting to coddle his fragile ego.

    Your assertion that life goes on as it did because the economy is doing well only demonstrates your privilege and lack of compassion for those predated on by Trump and co. We don;t know the full impact of Trump’s tenure yet. At minimum, it’s prudent to withhold judgment until his policies actually come into effect over the course of the next few years.

  42. EOS
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Jean,

    Why don’t you try treating others as you want to be treated, regardless of their viewpoint? It would make this blog a whole lot better.

  43. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Jean’s content is 100% emotion. No logic that can stand up to scrutiny. Threaten her bodily agency? Come on. It’s ridiculous. It’s mentally ill is what it is. Toootal TDS.

  44. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    EOS– I do treat others as I want to be treated. If my perspective was as warped as HW’s and yours, I would certainly want to be told so. I appreciate legitimate correction.

  45. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Trump gets shit done. There is no way around it. I’ve heard about stiffing contractors and don’t know what is up with it. He probably expected better quality or to not get ripped off when they tried to milk the contract. That’s about what he said about it.

  46. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Don’t see how my perspective is warped since I use evidence to back up what I say and you can’t answer. You just pretend it doesn’t exist and do that gobbledygook thing, making these wacky pronouncements about me personally. I’m sure more than just a few people that read these comments have noticed that is how it goes.

  47. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    By ‘threaten my bodily agency” I was referring to EOS’s anti-abortion stance as well as her positions against any kind of pharmaceutical interventions for mental illness. No, I don’t take any, but I’d like to reserve the right to, given that I’m a ‘stupid bitch.’ ‘mentally ill’ and all ‘100% emotion’ and so immune to logic.

    Speaking of ’emotional truth, from a sworn deposition, pre-dating the presidential run:
    “[Trump] said in the deposition that he tries to be “truthful” in discussing his net worth, but the transcript reveals that he views the truth, in these matters, to be a function of emotion as much as hard science. “My net worth fluctuates, and it goes up and down with markets and with attitudes and with feelings—even my own feelings—but I try.”

  48. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Insects.

  49. Tony
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    @Hyborian – Please look into his track record as a businessperson not from his own talking points, but from the public records. Nothing DJT had ever done has gone as planned. He’s so bad at building stuff that his only “successes” have been licensing his name onto other people’s properties.

    Given every credible expert has said the wall will have virtually no effect on illegal immigration, I think 10% funding is more than adequate. It’s more than his original budgeted amount he stated in his campaign trail before he realized it’s more work than he thought. If he’s some under-budget master, he sure didn’t show it when he had to revise his estimate 3-4 times. He is an idiot and a racist.

  50. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Troy, give it up.

  51. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Get on the Trump train or shut the fuck up.

  52. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Small people.

  53. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    Todays’ closings, all part of MAGA I guess
    Layoffs
    January Announced U.S. Layoff Total (Est.) – 17,918

    January 23 , 2018

    Kimberly Clark – 5,000 Jobs, Close 10 Factories

    Microsoft -Small Layoffs in Corporate Offices

    The Detroit Medical Center – up to 300

    Sphero – 45

    Pabst Brewing Company – 70

  54. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    How does EOS thinking what EOS thinks threaten you? That’s crazy. You have a pattern of straight up lying about what you say to try winning some point. I quoted you directly and you just bold face lied about saying it. To do things like that every day has got to be some kind of mental illness. I don’t even talk about you personally hardly at all compared to what you do. Mostly I talk about what people say which is how it should be. How many times have I done it compared to how often do you call me a narcissist and a crapload of other shit? You are a gaslighting troll. It’s true.

  55. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:37 am | Permalink

    Too bad for those workers. It’s a good thing we have plants opening for manufacturing again here in Michigan. Job market seems to be picking up. More places are hiring for sure.

  56. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    HW– I tried my best to address a single one of your absurd statements with a fully evidenced and link rebuttal. Your response was to excuse it by repeating Trump’s ‘gobbledygook’ talking points.
    Arguing you is fruitless. This is why no one bothers beyond expressions of frustration. It’s not discourse; it’s parallel play.

    PS One has recourse should a contractor not satisfactorily fulfill all of their contractual obligations, but not paying is not one of them. In fact it’s my understanding that Trump no longer builds projects (v leasing his name to them) because no one will fund him or contract for him.

    Pretty soon no one in government will bother working with him either. I happily await the collapse of his political and business empires. Soon enough, he will be a remaindered, powerless, relatively broke and humiliated man, living out his pathetic life in front of the TV eating McDonald’s. Like Bannon now but without the booze. At best. I’m patient. I can wait.

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    I mean if you put Jean’s wacky characterizations of me in a list and put my personal trash talk next to that she would have like a hundred times more of it. She seems obsessed with trying to destroy me personally. I destroy lies and unreason. Hyuuuge difference.

  58. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Trump begins his trade war with China, all part of MAGA
    http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/370171-trump-imposes-30-tariffs-on-solar-panel-imports

    The Solar industry group believes that the tariffs will ultimately cost 23,000 US jobs.

    It would make some sense if he was promoting renewable energy and was trying to build the US Solar industry. Trump is so buried in the past that he thinks he is going to revitalize the coal industry. 19th. century energy for the 21 st. century. Is there any wonder that we are sinking into 3rd. world status. If it was not for our ability to inflict pain on the world, we would be ignored.

  59. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    “Too bad for those workers. It’s a good thing we have plants opening for manufacturing again here in Michigan. Job market seems to be picking up. More places are hiring for sure.”

    Please tell me where, I know people who are looking for work

  60. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    “How does EOS thinking what EOS thinks threaten you?”
    Simple. Because she seeks to encode her personal religious beliefs into law. EOS supports big government intrusion on the personal freedoms of individuals, particularly women. If it were simply her personal values and kept as such, I would not care what she thinks. But Trump’s most durable impact is likely to be on the Judiciary branch, where unqualified judges who meet the anti-choice litmus test are being appointed to lifetime positions en masse and often without congressional review.

  61. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    You think reality is exactly the opposite of what it is. Trump is obviously gaining strength. The Dems are in disarray. The FISA memo and aaalll the other incriminating documents Horowitz has are going to hit the Party like an atomic bomb. Not just Dems – “Repubs” like McCain will be destroyed too. I’m telling you the old corrupt system will be laid to waste. It’s happening.

  62. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    And still no follow up on Puerto Rico from you. I believe you said something 3 or 4 months ago about how good a job Trump was going to do.

  63. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    I mean I don’t know if any McDonald’s are hiring any more than usual but in manufacturing a lot more places are from what I have seen.

  64. EOS
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    And Jean seeks to encode her personal beliefs into law. No difference. Everybody has a voice. That’s what makes our country great.

  65. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Michigan HAS been growing manufacturing jobs. At least we were consistently under Obama post 2008 collapse.
    http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/economy-budget/332075-for-a-happy-story-about-manufacturing-look-no-further-than

  66. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    I said how good of a job he did at the time and how incompetent the Puerto Rican leadership was to have all those goods and people driving around on the roads and everything but they couldn’t transport anything to the people. It’s a mess. Trump hinted at debt forgiveness for PR and even named Goldman Sachs while he was at it. That would be pretty fuckin’ awesome I would say. Then they could get financing to build a modern grid.

  67. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    Lol

    Lol

  68. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    When you hit rock bottom there is nowhere to go but up. It’s going to go way up under Trump. Everything is up but unemployment.

  69. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    HW, “I mean I don’t know if any McDonald’s are hiring any more than usual but in manufacturing a lot more places are from what I have seen.” I thought you might give me some specifics. Since you assert you want to engage in discussions based on facts.

    370,000 US workers were employed in the Solar industry in 2017. They rely for 80% of their supplies from foreign suppliers.
    160,000 are still employed in the coal industry. (source Bloomberg Jan. 22, 2018)

    Trump is doing everything he can to undermine the capacity of this country to move us into a renewable energy economy.

  70. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    “And Jean seeks to encode her personal beliefs into law. No difference. Everybody has a voice. That’s what makes our country great.” — fair point, except the part about separation of church and state being in the constitution. That separation ensures your freedom of religious practice, btw.

    I argue your points as you do mine because we care about the outcomes. I’m perfectly ok with how that process works. I’m a lot more ok with that when your side does not hold substantial power. Just as you felt under Obama. Everything with regards to discourse is as it should be. I reserve the right to dismiss out of hand selectively or duplicitously evidenced ideological anti-science positions. When I do the same, please let me know.

  71. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    Wobblie– I thought you support protectionism? Are you now making an argument for robust global trade as good for the US economy and American job creation?

  72. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    Oh by the way, the Arctic is still 10 C to 20 c above normal

    http://cci-reanalyzer.org/wx/DailySummary/#t2anom

  73. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    I’m talking about jobs I have seen listed on linkedin.

    Trump has also hinted about declassifying top secret energy technology. Do you think the government actually had no interest in the work of Nicola Tesla?

  74. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    No, I am pointing out the contradictions in Trumps economic positions. What we have now under neo-liberalism, and “globalization” is anything but good. Tariffs on solar would make some sense if at the same time we were engaging in economic policies to build our domestic solar manufacturing capacity. But trying to reinvigorate the coal and carbon industries is simply stupid

  75. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    “I argue your points as you do mine”

    EOS does not do what you do. Overall you do not argue points hardly at all. It’s total personal attack time with you almost always.

  76. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    HW, still waiting on specifics. Instead all you do is repeat the propaganda talking points.

  77. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Why go towards solar now when we could have had free wireless power from the Earth like a hundred years ago? I love solar power but I don’t think photovoltaic cells are the answer. We should think bigger than that.

  78. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    “HW, still waiting on specifics. Instead all you do is repeat the propaganda talking points.”

    Specifics on what? What are you talking about specifically. You can’t just say “Puerto Rico” and act like that is something to respond to.

  79. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    “Tariffs on solar would make some sense if at the same time we were engaging in economic policies to build our domestic solar manufacturing capacity.”

    Presumably tariffs will make it possible for American solar companies to compete.

  80. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Sorry. I didn’t say HW was going high, indeed I was expressing dismay at his name calling ( dork) and encouraging him to go high.

    EOS did you go to the march in Washington? I heard an interesting piece that many prolife people there were also pro DACA.

  81. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    HW– I argue EOS’ points if no one else does. I don’t bother arguing yours, however, for all the reasons cited in what you see as personal attacks.

  82. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Oh, come on. Did anyone expect someone to talk to someone like a ton of people did and do to me and they just going to take the abuse? I was intentionally polite to the many abusive posters here for months before I started letting people have some back. Usually it’s in the form of information. If I do talk trash it’s to emphasize a point.

  83. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    sad– HW only understands one meaning of the word ‘high’ and it’s not about any road. I welcome you jumping in when he uses invective. You have missed many opportunities. I look forward to that form of direct engagement on your part.

  84. Jcp2
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    I’m really excited to seethe unveiling of the Stark Industries arc reactor! Thanks, HW! There are truly some very fine people on both sides here.

  85. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    ‘HW– I argue EOS’ points if no one else does. I don’t bother arguing yours, however, for all the reasons cited in what you see as personal attacks.”

    Okay, but it’s on the record you refuse to rebut what I say all the time and make comments about me instead. You just reject everything someone says categorically. That’s what I mean about emotion versus logic. I listen to everyone and everything I can find and think about it on multiple levels.

  86. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    “sad– HW only understands one meaning of the word ‘high’ and it’s not about any road. I welcome you jumping in when he uses invective. You have missed many opportunities. I look forward to that form of direct engagement on your part.”

    Uses invective! Look at your own posts. This is insane.

  87. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    HW and Wobblie– there is plenty of employment data out there you could use to talk about manufacturing and jobs growth, rather then looking at one tiny sector or a casual impression of linked in offerings. Who even uses linked in anymore? Coal is still losing jobs. Solar is still plowing ahead, though not at the pace it could be. You can thank our neo-liberal global economy and fracking for that. Michigan lost jobs overall in the auto sector in 2017, despite Trumps claim of bringing jobs back. GM cut more jobs than it created, but it is building that truck plant. Overall MI has job growth but it’s rate of growth slowed in 2017 for the first time since 2009. There’s some prospect of wage growth. I would welcome that but I am distrustful of that prediction, given how the markets feed everybody profits before the workers.

    http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/2018/01/11/michigan-economy-outlook/109359300/

    https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2018/01/12/trump-gm-ford-fiat-chrysler-jobs/1018786001/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/11/business/fiat-chrysler-jobs.html

  88. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    “You just reject everything someone says categorically. ” Not anyone. Only you.

    I’m totally ok with using invective and other forms of personal attack against you. Turn around is fair play. Plus I find your own reactivity fascinating, certainly more so than your ‘points.’

    Sincerely yours,
    “Stupid Bitch”

  89. EOS
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    There’s actually nothing in the Constitution that states anything about the separation of church and state. However, even if it were explicitly stated, it has no bearing on my personal beliefs. I’m not a church. My individual beliefs cannot be blocked merely because they might align with a particular religion. If that were the case, I’d start a religion that supports abortion and then tell you that you can’t be pro-abortion because of separation of church and state.

  90. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    You do it waaay more than I do and you did it from the start when I had a rule of only speaking kindly. You say nasty shit about me just about every day and I hardly ever call you anything. You want to cling to what I called you when your bold face lying was too much to take. You want something to cement your victimhood, fine. It doesn’t change what you do. It’s all on the site. Anyone can read all our posts if they want and decide for their self.

  91. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    It’s called baiting HW – and sorry to say it’s you that reacts with emotion

    One of those tactics is called ‘baiting’. Baiting is when someone deliberately acts in a way so as to elicit either an angry or emotional response from the person that they’re interacting with. This is often used between two people where one wants to start an argument, and uses baiting in order to do so.

    The goal is usually to get the other person to start the fight in order to more easily turn the tables on them. It’s a tactic that’s used to gain advantage in an argument. The other person is fully aware that they’re baiting, and the victim is often left confused, hurt and easily manipulated.

  92. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    Baiting/trolling – same/similar. The dedication Jean and Lung have to the troll lifestyle is incredible. The weird thing is I don’t think they know they do it. It’s like the fish that has no idea that water exists.

  93. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    There was an interesting piece going around recently about how Sarah Silverman befriended one of her trolls. Turns out his life was a mess and he was striking out in pain. She really helped him.

  94. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Only for you, HW. You’re special that way.

    I know what I’m doing. I feel confident IL does too. Some people’s perspectives are not worthy of serious engagement. When I do engage you seriously on your points, you ignore them, as I usually do yours. So I suspect the feeling is mutual. Which is ok by me.

    I’m growing bored with this, so back to work. Later.

  95. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    I want to help everyone, Sad. That’s going to sound ridiculous to fewer and fewer people as the changes I have talked about actually happen more and more.

  96. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Good for you HW. I’m looking forward to what the future will bring.

  97. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Just for reference, in Jan. 2007 Michigan had a labor force of 5,044,805 of whom 4692984 were employed
    In December 2017 Michigan had a labor force of 4887450 of whom 4656087 were employed.
    The labor force has shrunk by over 60,000 and we still have not reached pre-depression levels of employment. That is the main reason the UI numbers have improved. Over 60,000 folks (not counting normal population increase) have left the labor force in Michigan.

    These are official Bureau of Labor Statistics Data
    https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LASST260000000000003

  98. EOS
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    I didn’t go to the march this year. Did you realize that most republicans are pro-DACA? And they also support CHIP. The difference is in the details. They (the Republicans) want the 800,000 who were brought here as children and registered under the program to have a path to citizenship, but not their parents who knowingly broke the law and put their kids at risk, and not the 3.5 million Dreamers who have tried to remain invisible, and not the millions of other adults who choose not to follow the rules. And they want to end the cycle of chain immigration and start making rational decisions about who can assimilate and contribute positively to our culture. They don’t want open borders like the EU and all the resultant problems that has caused. I’m all for immigration. My grandfather immigrated here – legally.

  99. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    But I easily take apart your points with knowledge and reason. You can’t stand that so you try to talk crazy shit about me personally. That’s how it goes. You’re like “Well I’m too good to stoop to the level of TALKING about ANYTHING HW talks about!” Do you have any idea how you will look to the world outside of SJW Fantasyland?

  100. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Sad– re the Silverman bit. That was touching, but her troll had revealed a lot about himself and his issues on twitter, so she had some real place at which to engage him. I have tried to draw out some detail of HW’s real life or emotional reality beyond this blog, but all we get is bravado, so not much room to move there. Beyond that it is not anyone’s responsibility to exert emotional labor to help their abusers. Silverman, from a position of great (remote) safety and privilege, chose to do so. This does not mean women should soothe their attackers. Indeed the impulse by many women to do so, often perpetuates the abuse in domestic violence situations. If you ever wondered why they stay, well, compassion for their attackers’ pain is a big piece of that puzzle. Sometimes we can help people in pain. Sometimes we can not, because we don’t have the capacity or they don’t accept help. Many here, included myself, have at times expressed empathy for HW’s apparent pain. He denies he has any. Not much to work with there. So I’m going to take him on his word and assume he’s just a jerk.

  101. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Pretty sure a lot of people are getting jobs in other states. That would explain why the work force is down. Michigan job growth will bring them back.

  102. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Trolling a troll is a noble pursuit. Turn around is fair play.

  103. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    Jean, you don’t have any idea what you are talking about? I have denied having pain? How do you figure? Suffering is part of life and I have lived a fair bit. You seem to be obsessed with fictionalizing me. It’s bizarre.

  104. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Specifics on what? What are you talking about specifically. You can’t just say “Puerto Rico” and act like that is something to respond to.
    You consistently belittled the scope of the crises in Puerto Rico soon after the Hurricane. You consistently hyped how well it would be dealt with by Trump. I posted a link a week ago about how 1,500,000 US citizens in Puerto Rico have now been without electricity for over 120 days. You were silent. I specifically asked what you thought. You were silent.
    As you did in September you now blame the victims for the slow pace of recovery. Part of the attempted deal making over the government shutdown was disaster relief funding. Trumps White House shot that down, and as near as I can tell the Feds under our leader Trump are doing little to nothing to help our fellow citizens in Puerto Rico.

    If you know other wise, since you seem to be in the know, please tell me with specifics.

  105. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    I’m not a troll. I have a different perspective. Big difference there. Not knowing that is part of your problem.

  106. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    I thought I said a lot of things about Puerto Rico. I summed it up just a few minutes ago and you didn’t like it. It’s a tough situation. Puerto Rican politicians didn’t take care of business and get an electric system decades ago. Now an entire new system needs to be created – an enormous job that is going to take time no matter what.

  107. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    “Pretty sure a lot of people are getting jobs in other states. That would explain why the work force is down. Michigan job growth will bring them back.”

    No specifics just platitudes. Much like our Leader Trump. I’ll build the wall in a year, and the Mexicans will pay for it. I’ll bring the jobs back. I’ll make American Great.

    Oh, but wait. The Dems will have a hissy fit once the Intelligence Committee releases all the secret stuff they have on all the FBI and Dem collusion oh wait there is more coming and even McCain will go down–Wait wait there is more secret news on the way.

  108. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Unemployment is down. I think that is a pretty good indicator people are getting jobs!

  109. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    They can have a hissy fit all the way to jail. No problem.

  110. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.” — Thomas Jefferson

    EOS– the exact words don’t have to be there, for it to be understood as the intent of the founding fathers (strict construction), supported consistently by the judiciary over 200 years, that no state religion + free exercise of religion (Article 1, Bill of Rights) + no religious test shall be required for political office (Article 6, Constitution) = constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state. The only person arguing against that is your friend Roy Moore, who was unseated from the judiciary for doing so, twice.

  111. EOS
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    Jean, You missed the point. Individuals can’t be silenced by rules that pertain to institutions alone.

  112. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    “Pretty sure a lot of people are getting jobs in other states. That would explain why the work force is down. Michigan job growth will bring them back.”

    Wishful thinking. Looking at the latest from the BLS and I don’t see anything to support your assertion.
    https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cps_charts.pdf

    But just keep making those assertion. Facts don’t matter only what you believe counts.

  113. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    Only simpletons will furiously defend authority without question.

  114. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    The very first chart shows civilian employment is up about 4.8 million.

  115. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    “Jean, you don’t have any idea what you are talking about? I have denied having pain? How do you figure? Suffering is part of life and I have lived a fair bit. You seem to be obsessed with fictionalizing me. It’s bizarre.” HW
    You have stated you have a hot girlfriend, a good, well-paying job, happily use copious amount of recreational drugs, do not live in your mother’s basement, and are superior in all manner to anyone else commenting here.
    I am curious about your real life. I make no apologies for my interest in that over your political points. It’s simply more interesting. Posting anonymously and obsessively will invite assumption and projection. Nature abhors a vacuum. I’m like Saint Sarah Silverman, just trying to find some aspect of you to which I can relate. You are somewhat interesting. Your points are not.

  116. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    “Unemployment is down. I think that is a pretty good indicator people are getting jobs!”

    Wrong, you fail to understand that people drop out of the job market after being unemployed for protracted periods of time. The labor force participation rate now stands at under 63%. The lowest going back to the Reagan administration when they reconfigured how they do their statistics.

  117. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    That’s why you do exactly that, IL. You defend a system corrupt to the core by hassling me. Worse than corrupt. It’s all coming out and you are going to have to eat everything. It’s so fuckin’ AWESOME what is happening right now! Major hits coming. I told you all months ago. It’s been building since then and the Trump collusion case is drying up. Now the coup conspirators WILL be brought to justice. If you don’t know it yet you haven’t been paying attention.

  118. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Lol

  119. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Are more people dropping out right now or getting back in do you think? That is what happened under Obama – people dropping out and the unemployment rate not reflecting that. I doubt it is going in that direction now.

  120. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    EOS– I have never silenced you nor suggested you should be silenced. I just think you’re full of shit. And I’m totally ok with you feeling the same way about me. I will. however, reserve the right to fight against conservative Christian ideology becoming the basis for any government legislation, especially such that would intrude on freedom of choice, because I consider that to be unconstitutional.
    Your personal beliefs do not concern me until you try to enact them into law that restricts the free exercise of my beliefs.
    I’m sure you feel the same way. I’m ok with that.
    There’s a lot of rub (useful tension) in our constitution there.

  121. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    White people dropping out and going on disability isnt controversial to the bigots of the world.

    Some mexican dude working for a living and paying taxes is.

  122. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    No the first chart show that the labor force is at approx. 160,000,000. The second chart shows that the first chart only represents approx. 63% of those who might work. The third chart shows that only 155 million folks have a job. The fourth chart shows that just over 60% of the population is working. The fifth chart pulls out agricultural workers and shows how many people are engaged in non-agricultural work. The sixth chart pulls out the self-employed non-agricultural workers. The seventh chart pulls out the non-agricultural part-time workers. Chart 8 graphs part-time workers who are part-time for economic reasons. Chart 9-19 chart various unemployment demographics.

    Chart 20 gives you the various unemployment measurments in one graph. The U1 is the figure always cited by the media and by what ever party is in power. It is always going to be the lowest figure. The U6 is a much more accurate measure of the state of the labor markets.

  123. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    HW is the moral arbiter of all that is good and just. He is also privy to the future. He may in fact be omniscient. And he cares! So much! The Messiah returned. (EOS bows down) The rapture should take place any day now, and then we will all see the errors of our ways. The scales will fall off our eyes and all will be revealed. The weak will be punished. And righteousness shall reign throughout the land. The Hyborian Warlord rises, vanquishing his enemies for once and for all, making room for his God, Herr Trump to rule the earth.

    ultimate narcissistic totalitarian fantasy

  124. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    White people dropping out and going on disability isnt controversial to the bigots of the world.

    IL I don’t know about the bigots of the world, but social security disability has been the last refuge for discarded wage workers for nearly two decades now. The number of people receiving social security disability has gone up over 33% in this century,
    https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/dibStat.html

    applying myself this month.

  125. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Of course they only approve about a third of those who apply. The others get to live with there children or stand on street corners and beg.

  126. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    It’s all favorable for 2017! You say only 155 million employed for example but that is up from previous years. More workers, more jobs, climbing wages. What are you talking about?

  127. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    “HW is the moral arbiter of all that is good and just. He is also privy to the future. He may in fact be omniscient. And he cares! So much! The Messiah returned. (EOS bows down) The rapture should take place any day now, and then we will all see the errors of our ways. The scales will fall off our eyes and all will be revealed. The weak will be punished. And righteousness shall reign throughout the land. The Hyborian Warlord rises, vanquishing his enemies for once and for all, making room for his God, Herr Trump to rule the earth.
    ultimate narcissistic totalitarian fantasy”

    Might as well print that out now because you are going to have to have it ready for chow time.

  128. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    HW, the fourth chart shows that the number of people who have a job has increased by approx. 15 million since its 2010 low point. That is 78 months of expansion. Do the math that equals less than 178,000 new jobs a month. Many of those new jobs were part-time positions ( a high of around 20% to around 18% now). Some where between 150,000 and 170,000 new people enter the job market every month. That is why we now have the lowest participation rate in 40 years. That is why every body and their brothers uncle is applying for Social Security Disability. You can start crowing when over 200,000 new jobs are created month after month for six months or so—then you will actually see the participation rate go up again.

    Until then it is simply more feel good corporate propaganda.

  129. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    More workers, more jobs, climbing wages. What are you talking about?
    Yet another false assertion. According to the Federal Reserve of St. Louis US median household income in 1999 was 58665. In 2016 (the last year we have statistics) it was 59039. That is less than a 1% in 17 years. Have not looked up the inflation rate, but figure it was low in the 2% range (I think the Fed was trying to get it up to around 2.5%). A loss in purchasing power of 2% a year vs. a 1% increase in income in 16 years.
    Since there are no reliable statistics yet on 2017, all you are doing is making up stuff.

  130. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    The all time low in participation was in 2015. Are we looking at the same thing?

  131. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Well Wobblie at least you and HW agree on one thing.

    NPR was just trumpeting the low unemployment rate – Fake News?

  132. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    “Since there are no reliable statistics yet on 2017, all you are doing is making up stuff.”

    You posted that page with 2017 data. I took apart what you are saying with your own information.

  133. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    Sad, NPR is the Government propaganda channel. I would not be surprised if they were still reporting on the WMD hidden in Iraq.

  134. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    “Since there are no reliable statistics yet on 2017, all you are doing is making up stuff.”

    You posted that page with 2017 data. I took apart what you are saying with your own information.

    No I was talking about your assertion concerning “rising wages”. There are no income statistics for 2017 yet. And no you I think you will fail your labor economic course without more work. I pointed out to you how you failed to read the graphs correctly. Do you want me to go over it again?

  135. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    “You posted that page with 2017 data. I took apart what you are saying with your own information.”

    lol

    “No I was talking about your assertion concerning “rising wages”. There are no income statistics for 2017 yet.”

    Double lol

  136. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    “I pointed out to you how you failed to read the graphs correctly.”

    super lol

  137. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    You are reading it incorrectly. Charts 5 and 6 of your own link show rising wages in 2017. Are you okay?

    https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cps_charts.pdf

  138. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    Back to the point of MM’s post, maybe the Dems will grow a set in the next show down, but I suspect it will all be kabuki theater

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/23/chuck-schumer-trump-wall-offer-359156

  139. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    Wages have been going up since 2014.

    Trump was not President then. If anything, rises wages since 2017 are simply following a trend that started in 2014 after a drop several years before.

    Regardless, wages are still not where they should be, had wages been rising the whole time.

    I don’t think that Mr. Trump (or even Mr. Obama) can take credit for anything here.

  140. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    “Back to the point of MM’s post, maybe the Dems will grow a set in the next show down, but I suspect it will all be kabuki theater”
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/23/chuck-schumer-trump-wall-offer-359156

    AHAHAHAHAAA!!! You have got to be kidding me! Look at you! I am actually cracking up! Just pretend you didn’t embarrass yourself. If you ignore it it will go away.

  141. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    No. The CPS charts have nothing to do with income. Chart 5 shows “non-agricultual wage and salary employment” ie. how many people were engaged in non-agricultural employment. It says nothing about how much they were being paid for that employment. Chart 6 shows “non-agricultural self-employment”. Again it shows nothing about how much they were making ie. their income. The Bureau of Labor Statistics does not compile data related to wages and income. That is why I posted the link to the St. Louis Federal Reserve. They are the most “reliable” source of information on income. They utilize information derived from the US Census and other sources. Labor market information is compiled monthly by the BLS. Income data comes in much slower and is usually a year or more behind.

    The media will often use information from private sources concerning income. The CPI (consumer price index) is compiled by the BLS, but again there is no direct reporting of income paid by employers to any specific government agency (except the IRS, but Tax returns are confidential and the IRS doe nothing to compile the information).

  142. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Okay, my bad. Number of people employed, not wages themselves. How much do you want to bet wages will go up significantly this year? Let the tax cut sink in and let’s see then.

  143. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    HW you need to read information on the side of the charts. They are indicating “numbers in thousands”. So when the graph indicates 9,000 it means 9,000,000 ie. the number of people engaged in that economic activity. Nothing to do with income at all

  144. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Only a true clown would believe that anything Mr. Trump gives himself credit for is true.

    Presidents always want to give themselves credit for what happens in the US economy, but showing effects of policy on most outcomes is difficult, and for economic outcomes, even moreso.

    Trump, like any President, needs to be maligned, disbelieved, distrusted and held accountable particularly by those who support him. To do otherwise it to truly invite tyranny.

    But the simpletons are easily entranced by power, and will do its bidding without question.

  145. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Blue collar wages up

    Nov 14th 2017 |
    https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21731332-weaker-dollar-and-energy-boom-are-pushing-up-pay-blue-collar-wages-are-surging-can-it

  146. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    You would know a lot about being a clown, lol-boy so you should know better.

  147. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    “HW you need to read information on the side of the charts. They are indicating “numbers in thousands”. So when the graph indicates 9,000 it means 9,000,000 ie. the number of people engaged in that economic activity. Nothing to do with income at all.”

    I said my bad. In case you didn’t know that is some “old skool” “lingo” indicating I recognize my mistake.

  148. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– Are you applying for disability because of a lack of suitable jobs or because of some other personal or health-related reason? Just curious. No judgment. It’s a tough system. I know some people who have received disability, after hiring a lawyer to file for them (so critical to approval that it seems like a racket, FYI). All were unemployable under the best of circumstances. In my hometown, many factory and farm workers went on disability because their bodies were broken, and they were too old to retrain. I have heard reports that many of the concentrations of populations on disability are disabled due to uncompensated work-related injuries and chronic illness. I’m wondering to what degree sustained hazardous working conditions contributed to the current spike in disability. Disability is not intended to be extended unemployment benefits, even in recession, unless there is some proof of incapacity to work and no other source of income, right? Do you believe the system is being abused. Or did it in fact become an alternative to necessary continued unemployment benefit extensions– in other words a sanctioned run-around?

    To me, the employment picture outside of disability benefits looks pretty damn good overall, even with the turn down in employment growth post Trump. https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21731332-weaker-dollar-and-energy-boom-are-pushing-up-pay-blue-collar-wages-are-surging-can-it
    That’s why I’m trying to understand the disability piece. Among those I know, mostly in the restaurant industry, the most common reason for long term unemployment or dropping out is illness of the worker or a family member. Every place is hiring. Wages are rising, though are still far from adequate. This has been going on for the last 3-4 years. I agree we are still catching up to pre-2008 levels, but I’ve been impressed at how the recovery over all has gone. The people I see as left behind in the recovery are mostly Black Americans and Latinx (https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/08/daily-chart-1) , and even those long lagging numbers are starting to improve. (Income is improving but wealth is still declining)

    Do you believe the recovery was mismanaged by Obama? If so, how could it have been improved? Do you support any of Trump’s protectionist policy proposals?

    I understand your distress at current outcomes. I guess I’m wondering what changes you would like to see that are within the scope of current political possibility (by which I mean could have public support, not corporate backing)?

  149. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:57 pm | Permalink

    My prediction is more of the same. The rich get richer and austerity for the rest. Lots of propaganda telling us how good we have it. And of course the bread and circus around the election. 17 years and aggregate income goes up 1%. The rich love it, their money becomes more valuable every day. The Fed is doing everything it can to ensure the stock market continues to rise, though they may start putting the ” brakes on” which could send us right back to 2008 or worse.

  150. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    I was writing my post and did not realize you had posted. Sorry. will look at the site you just posted

  151. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    “I said my bad. In case you didn’t know that is some “old skool” “lingo” indicating I recognize my mistake.”

    Was he prepared psychologically for being wrong? Does he need psychological counseling?

    Maybe now that he knows he isn’t credible, he can “shut the fuck up.”

  152. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    HW– from the economist article you posted:
    “After years of imbalance, a shift in economic power towards workers is to be welcomed, so long as inflation remains low. Yet wage growth also helps determine the fate of politicians, *whether or not they deserve it.* Mr Trump’s election led to soaring small-business confidence, which is yet to abate. His promise to deregulate the energy sector may have spurred some investment. *Yet his apparent economic success to date mostly reflects fortunate timing.*

    That will not stop him from taking the credit should a tight labour market lift America’s spirits as the 2020 presidential election approaches. Rightly or wrongly, the biggest beneficiary of a sustained wage boom for workers may be a suited man sitting in the Oval Office. “

  153. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    The standard deduction is doubled so that helps everyone but especially low wage earners. Most people will get a raise in February. Millions have got bonuses already. It’s good to be going in the right direction.

  154. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Trump has used his position to enrich himself and appointed people who are equally self-interested, yet will tell his supporters how good they have it, and they will eat it up. Obviously they are already eating it up.

    It’s classic.

  155. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    No way. This economy is about to start cooking. The tax cut is rocket fuel for it. You are going to be in the uncomfortable position of being sad the economy is doing well.

  156. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    “Was he prepared psychologically for being wrong? Does he need psychological counseling?
    Maybe now that he knows he isn’t credible, he can “shut the fuck up.”

    See, I did shut the fuck up about that, didn’t I? That’s the point. It’s a colorful way to say that if you can’t respond with better facts you lose the argument. I lost on the wage earner chart I misread so there is nothing I can say about that.

  157. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Doubtful.

  158. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    HW, I looked at the site you posted. As the article points out much of the recent increase in income is the result of the increase in state minimum wages. Here in Michigan it has gone up this year, last year it went up in 25 states and localities. I think, (but would need to do additional research) that the recent increase in wages in manufacturing and transportation is linked to new collective bargaining agreements (contracts) between unions and major employers. Just like when Michigan passed right to work, many unions attempted to get multi-year agreements. Most contracts economic packages are front loaded. So in the first year of a multi-year deal you might get a 4% raise, but only 1.5% the next two or three.

    I’ll take the report that “blue collar wages are surging” with a grain of salt for a while. After years of austerity they should be going up.

  159. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    For example the quote Jean put up from the Economist supports what I said about wages being up in 2017. Period. Therefore she has to do what? Otherwise she is using a straw man. It may or may not be due to Trump policy but it is in fact up which is what I said.

  160. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    HW, Millions have got bonuses already. Again assertions without facts. The Wal-Mart bonuses were announced just prior to the announcement that they were closing dozens of stores and laying off thousands of employees. The same with ATT bonus announcements.

    I just looked at the 2017 1040 form the standard deduction for married filing jointly is $12,700. Looking at my 2016 1040 the standard deduction for married filing jointly was $12,600. Please explain to me how that is a doubling of my standard deduction.

    Again assertions without checking the facts–propaganda, keep repeating the lie often enough and people will believe it.
    irs site
    https://www.pdffiller.com/jsfiller-desk1/?projectId=156659980&expId=3014&expBranch=3#ae9493a690d44d09a308e8c038e3b69c

  161. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    I think it will be clear the Trump economy is kicking major ass well before midterms. Investors are ultra bullish.

  162. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    “I just looked at the 2017 1040 form ”

    I dunno, try the 2018 one?

    http://time.com/money/5072112/gop-tax-bill-standard-deduction/

  163. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    You don’t know this?

    “The biggest — but not only — reason fewer taxpayers will itemize under Tax Cuts and Jobs Act is a dramatic increase in the standard deduction. The bill would double the value of the provision to $12,000 for single filers and $24,000 for those filing jointly.”

  164. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    I won’t be filing for 2018 until 2019. You can not file for a year that has not happened yet. In 2018 (now) you are filing your taxes for 2017. Read the form

  165. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    I’m beginning to see why you are so gulable and want to believe the propaganda you hear.

  166. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    “I won’t be filing for 2018 until 2019. You can not file for a year that has not happened yet. In 2018 (now) you are filing your taxes for 2017. Read the form”

    Obviously. That is your mistake, right? 2018 is the first year of the new taxes.

  167. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    The first line of the 1040 form
    For the year Jan. 1–Dec. 31, 2017
    page two of 1040
    Form 1040 (2017)
    Page
    2
    Tax and
    Credits
    38
    Amount from line 37 (adjusted gross income)
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    38
    39a
    Check
    if:
    {
    You
    were born before January 2, 1953,
    Blind.
    Spouse
    was born before January 2, 1953,
    Blind.
    }
    Total boxes
    checked

    39a
    b
    If your spouse itemizes on a separate return or you were a dual-status alien, check here

    39b
    Standard
    Deduction
    for—
    • People who
    check any
    box on line
    39a or 39b
    or
    who can be
    claimed as a
    dependent,
    see
    instructions.
    • All others:
    Single or
    Married filing
    separately,
    $6,350
    Married filing
    jointly or
    Qualifying
    widow(er),
    $12,700
    Head of
    household,
    $9,350

  168. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    You thought this years tax form would represent the bill that just passed?

  169. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Think it through carefully I guess if it is not obvious to you what your mistake is.

  170. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    To the Mr. Warlord’s credit, today he is putting up a serious of posts that almost represents a real train of thought.

  171. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    “For example the quote Jean put up from the Economist supports what I said about wages being up in 2017. Period. Therefore she has to do what? Otherwise she is using a straw man. It may or may not be due to Trump policy but it is in fact up which is what I said.”

    I put it up because you attributed the growth the Trump and the article questions that narrative in its final paragraph.

    I posted multiple other links with questions directed at Wobblie, but they are awaiting moderation. I agree with Wobblie about much of his assessment but rarely about his solutions. I’m still trying to understand what he supports economically. I think we probably agree on long term objectives in terms of greatly reducing income and wealth inequality, improving the health and well-being of the citizenry, moving away from austerity measures, corporate influence, and privileging stock holder interests over workers, etc etc. I still don’t understand what jobs he would like to see growing and how he proposes to accomplish that. I also don’t understand what alternative he sees that would satisfactorily employ the 100’s of thousands qualifying for disability right now. Is the uptick in disability due to economic mismanagement or did we just start to improve public benefits to meet existing need for those who can no longer work for physical and mental health reasons and who do not have pensions or other income sources adequate to support them?

    I understand what you don;t support Wobblie. What measures do you support?

  172. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    HW, “The standard deduction is doubled so that helps everyone but especially low wage earners. Most people will get a raise in February.” I thought you meant this February.
    “No way. This economy is about to start cooking. The tax cut is rocket fuel for it. ” I thought you meant this year.
    “I think it will be clear the Trump economy is kicking major ass well before midterms” I thought you meant the 2018 midterm elections.

    What did you mean?

  173. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    It’s tough to do with all this nonsense. Wobblie can’t figure out the tax thing so I have to try to explain it. I thought everyone knew the standard deduction has been doubled. Starting in February!

  174. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    “You thought this years tax form would represent the bill that just passed?” — solid point HW.

  175. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    THIS FEBRUARY most people will get a raise. It will affect the economy in a positive way this year, yes. We are both in 2018 right? I don’t see where your confusion is about what I said.

  176. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    Still don’t know what big raise people are getting in February. You can not file your 2018 taxes until January 2019.

  177. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    “I put it up because you attributed the growth the Trump and the article questions that narrative in its final paragraph.”

    I thought I said “wages are up” and that’s it.

  178. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    They are going to be taking a little less out of most people’s take home, wobblie.

  179. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– quite obviously HW was referring to the standard deduction changes on 2018 payroll, while you were referring to the 2017 1040.

    He is right that many people will receive a nominal reduction in taxation for 8 years, with any accompanying increase in other costs and risk exposure due to cuts, and an overall massive increase in federal debt that predicted growth is unlikely to adequately compensate for. We’ll see though. What is clear is that tax reform was a massive pay out to the very wealthy, with a few scraps thrown out to the starving (and so perversely grateful) masses. The debt from this bill we will all pay for eventually.

  180. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    The massive temporary tax cut was an obvious ploy to line many people’s pockets before the 2018 elections and long before the real bill on it comes due.

  181. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    How much is deducted from peoples pay checks is based on how many dependents you claim (the w-4 (?) employers have you fill out when you are hired). I remember Reagan advising everyone to claim as many as 7 deductions so that you could have the maximum in your weekly pay (I did that for a number of years). The second calculus is a multiplier against wages paid. Currently the IRS tax calculator is unavailable

    https://www.irs.gov/individuals/irs-withholding-calculator

    All I have heard are assertions. From what I’ve read few people even read the new tax law. Asserting everyone is going to get a big raise in two weeks is simply an assertion.

  182. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Whoah whoah whoah. Obama and Bush put us 20 trillion in the hole and that is no problem but Trump’s 1.5 trill is a major issue? We are going in the right direction. I think growth will take care of the projected debt increase.

  183. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    JH there is no standard deduction on payrole. How much the employer withholds is based on the calculus above. In addition they withhold 6.3% for social security. The only standard deduction I am aware of is on the 1040 form. They say that will double in 2018 to compensate for the elimination of the mortgage interest deduction, the elimination of the deduction for local and state taxes and prehaps other deductions they eliminated (only those who itemize are effected)

  184. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    * series

    not serious.

  185. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    Can’t vouch for the tax calculator but give it a shot if you want.

    https://www.calcxml.com/calculators/trump-tax-reform-calculator

  186. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    “Due to the tax law changes signed into law on December 22, 2017, the IRS withholding calculator is currently unavailable. ‎The IRS will update the calculator as soon as updated withholding information is available.

    In addition, the IRS is working to develop withholding guidance to implement the tax reform bill. We anticipate issuing the initial withholding guidance in January, and employers and payroll service providers will be encouraged to implement the changes in February. The IRS emphasizes this information will be designed to work with the existing Forms W-4 that employees have already filed, and no further action by taxpayers is needed at this time.

    Use of the new 2018 withholding guidelines will allow taxpayers to begin seeing the changes in their paychecks as early as February. In the meantime, employers and payroll service providers should continue to use the existing 2017 withholding tables and systems.”

    https://www.irs.gov/individuals/irs-withholding-calculator

    The standard deduction is in fact calculated into payroll taxes. They are the 1st few item lines on the W-4 form. The IRS will be implementing those changes in payroll calculators in early February. The payroll deduction will be realized once the IRS and related payroll systems adjust. What was not realized in payroll before those changes take place will be taken upon filing in 2019.

    I know a few things about payroll taxes, despite not being an economist, having filed for my business and others since the days when I had to look them up in a book.

  187. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    HW you just compared the debt accumulated over 16 years to the debt amassed in one year. Beyond that, how the national debt and deficit spending is calculated is often manipulated. 9 trillion over 8 years is worst assessment of Obama’s spending (and he inherited two wars and a fucking economic disaster– the kind of economy that warrants deficit spending). Whereas Trump inherits a growing and steady economy and throws a bunch of money to the wealthiest at cost to everyone over the long run. At no point did Obama put the US into as much debt in one year as Trump did this year. https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-under-obama-3306293

  188. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Wrong

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/23/trumps-shiny-tax-cut-plan-has-a-1-point-5-trillion-problem.html
    Congress is speeding toward a budget plan that, in the name of cutting taxes, lets the government collect $1.5 trillion less revenue for the next 10 years.

  189. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    Okay, I am wrong about that – that is the effect of the tax cut on the debt. NYT says 10 trillion added in debt over ten years of Trump. Let’s see!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/us/politics/budget-deficit-trump.html

  190. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    If you collect less revenue, you have less money to pay for your obligations.

  191. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    That’s true. If you collect a lower percentage from a higher total amount due to growth you have a chance at having as much money though. Plus more people get jobs.

  192. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Tax cuts have been shown over and over again not to pay for themselves.

  193. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    The Mr. Warlord is too old to be still believing that tax cuts pay for themselves.

    That’s been shown to be magical nonsense by even the people who advised Reagan that it would work.

  194. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Do you think Reagan was a financial wizard?

  195. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Who cares?

  196. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    Has there ever been one in the White House before?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-imf-economy-outlook/imf-raises-global-growth-forecast-sees-trump-tax-boost-idUSKBN1FB1TK
    DAVOS, Switzerland (Reuters) – The International Monetary Fund on Monday revised up its forecast for world economic growth in 2018 and 2019, saying sweeping U.S. tax cuts were likely to boost investment in the world’s largest economy and help its main trading partners.

  197. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    No one in the whole world thinks Reagan was a Financial wizard. Anyone can live richly if they accumulate debt and defer payment down the line. Trickle down economics did not work to stimulate the economy long term. And Reagan o creased taxes overall and created the massive deficit and wealth inequality we are still wrestling with. He also created mass incarceration, private prisons, and the welfare queen myth. And he broke unions. And he broke the back of any sense of ethical responsibility in dealing with foreign policy. And talk about deep state… We are living in the shit Reagan made. And people loved him. I still have nightmares about that guy. It took me a decade of traveling to learn to love America again.

  198. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    It’s relevant to what you said so you ought to care. Trump knows what he is doing in the economic arena. Reagan probably not so much.

  199. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Tax cuts, though, do not pay for themselves.

    Moreover, there is zero evidence that these investment gains will result in increased wages, which has always been the problem. Companies have been investing for decades, but profits have largely gone to shareholders instead of workers.

    The tax breaks will not increase wages for workers. Trickle down does not work, and has never been shown to work.

    This is just Reagan era hyperbole all over again.

    Is is astounding that people don’t see it.

  200. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    You are too old to believe that nonsense.

  201. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    “Trump knows what he is doing in the economic arena. Reagan probably not so much.”

    Clearly, he doesn’t, given that he’s repeating the same mistakes.

  202. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    My point is Trump is a financial genius. You can’t knock his plan based on Reagan. I’m not wild about Reagan to say the least. I don’t know exactly how much of the bad shit was from GHWB though. No doubt a huge amount of the worst of it was run by Bush. Iran/Contra, etc.

  203. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Bush’s economy was horrible so how could he not have been a drain on Reagan’s policy? Bush had an inordinate level of influence I am sure.

  204. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    Reagan was elected almost 40 years ago and the economy at that time was very different than now. Is there any chance that the huge amount of money corporations now make overseas and will be bringing home now because of the tax cuts could make a difference?

    P.S. Wobblie the point is that you and HW both think media is suspect and that each individual must determine accurate sources and decipher the hidden truths therein.

    P.S EOS these christians were much more charitable than you. They were in favor of keeping families together. They were in favor of non merit based immigration.

    As far as the parents of DACA kids, don’t you think forgiveness is in order? They wanted a better life for themselves and their children and struck out to a foreign land to make a life. That’s heroic and the American way. Don’t you know the story of the prodigal son? You’re acting like the brother who’s upset the father is taking him back, with a party none the less.

  205. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    A number of bankruptcies say other wise, 6 in fact, well into the billions of dollars.

    Regardless, neither Trump nor Reagan were “financial geniuses.” They are Presidents with advisers who act based on the advise given to them. Neither of them were economists.

    It’s notable that there is not a single economist on Trump’s advisory team. He is taking advice from self interested business people looking to enact policy which benefits their personal goals and priorities.

  206. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    “Is there any chance that the huge amount of money corporations now make overseas and will be bringing home now because of the tax cuts could make a difference?”

    It is possible, but that idea predated Trump. Moreover, it is doubtful that we will see any appreciable wage gains. Domestic shareholders might profit, however.

  207. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    “My point is Trump is a financial genius. “
    Can we lol yet SAD?
    The corporate tax cuts were not a bad idea. Obama’s put some in effect as well. Many social democracies (like those Scandinavian models do often pointed to) have a lower tax rate than we do, because they want to increase investment and so wealth. What they don’t do is couple corporate tax breaks with tax breaks for the wealthiest individuals. They tax the shit out of everyone but the poorest, of which there are startlingly few, because of comprehensive social benefits. They also don’t couple low corporate tax rates with a loosening of regulations to protect the overall public Good. As IL stated it’s likely shareholders will benefit and not workers. An alarmingly small percentage of Americans are invested in the stock market either individually or by proxy (pensions). In this as all things lately the Money rises to the very top.

    SAD— many have appealed to EOS’ Christian compassion before to no avail. Go back a few years and you will see her true colors with regards to the poor and people of color (they deserve it) as well as lgbtq rights (they create bias against her and destroy families) etc etc. immigrants are just the tip of the iceberg.

  208. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Oh also women who get pregnant out of wedlock and their children should have to live with the economic consequences without ai. That’s how pro-life and pro-child she is.

  209. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    The reduction in the corporate tax rate is not a bad thing. Tax streamlining is not a bad thing.

    But there need to be tax incrntives to increase wages or taxes on stock dividends.

    The problem again is wages. The tax bill doesx nothing to solve that problem

  210. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Eos is faux christian.

  211. Iron lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Bilking people out of money is now “genius.”

  212. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Jesus was an undocumented immigrant, a refugee from violence with no citizenship. Jesus was a Dreamer. And no, Mary and Joseph didn’t register Jesus’ birth with the State like DACA kids. He didn’t trust King Herrod, rightly. Joseph fled to Egypt at God’s command.

    If EOS met Jesus and his family today, she’d call the cops and ICE and make sure they were jailed until returned to be punished.

  213. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    The 11th commandment:

    “Thou shall not cross the border with one’s parents illegally.”

    Cue EOS to chime in with some cherry picked line of scripture to justify kicking brown people out of the United States in 2018.

  214. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Maybe it’s ok if God tells you to avoid documentation and immigrate illegally across the desert to a neighboring country. That’s the only exception.
    Of course, God may have spoken similarly to current undocumented immigrants but EOS wouldn’t believe them.
    And of course, crossing from what is now Israel into Egypt one would face a border wall. Israel is currently deporting its refugees from Africa, mostly Eritrea and Sudan, to Rwanda…They can not be safely returned home, but they are not refugees. Rather, they are ‘infiltrators’ according to the Israeli government.

    sigh…

    Here is a brilliant hoax that reminded me of Trump’s con of supporters like HW. But this guy has more heart and more guts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqPARIKHbN8

  215. Iron Lung
    Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    The idea that states take ownership of people that can be bought, sold and constrained in movement by other states seems unChristian to me, but then Christianity is a slave religion so maybe it makes sense.

    EOS would defend Jewish ghettoes under the Nazis if she were there, because “that’s the law.”

  216. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 5:45 am | Permalink

    Do Burger King or Taco Bell even have a breakfast menu?

  217. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 6:16 am | Permalink

    JH- please point out to me where on the W-4 form there is anything called “a standard deduction”
    https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4.pdf

  218. Jcp2
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Standard deduction is found on line 40 on the IRS 1040 tax return form. For nonitemized returns for 2017, it is 6350 for single filers and 12700 married filing jointly. For 2018 it is 12000 for single filers and 24000 married filing jointly.

  219. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    Jcp2 I understand that. JH and HW seems to think that some how the standard deduction plays a role in the W-4 form. HW was crowing about how the doubling of the standard deduction was going to effect peoples withholding and show up as a “big pay raise in February”.
    I’ve been trying to explain that is entirely different than the changes in the tax rate which will be what effects peoples withholding. The tax rate plus how many dependents you claim is the calculus that is used to determine folks withholding.
    Since individual tax rates vary by income, some like those who have the highest incomes will see the biggest reduction in withholding. I don’t know what they did with the tax rate for those of us who make more modest incomes. I’ve been trying to help HW clear out his confusion.

  220. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 6:40 am | Permalink

    Wobblie– Use your head. Have you regularly filed your taxes with a W-2 attached and found out you were owed and additional $6000? When the W-4 form asks about marital status, whether your partner is working, if you have kids etc, it is using that information to calculate your standard deduction for withholding. I posted the link from the IRS saying that they will release the new tables in February an strongly encourage those who run payroll to implement the changes immediately.
    In insisting on the actual language, rather than understanding the full context, you are following in EOS rhetorical footsteps. I did this stuff for years. If you receive a paycheck, the withholding should be adjusted to reflect the new standardized deduction in the next few months. HW was right in this case. Conceding that does not in any way make him right in all cases.

  221. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    In other news, it seems HW is a Russian Bot: https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/01/19/us/politics/19reuters-usa-trump-russia-republicans.html

    Ok well, one can dream can’t one?

    I will be happy when the same old GOP tactics of harassing with propaganda those who threaten their power will be known and understood and so no longer effective. The GOP yelling ‘release the memo’ when they know it can not be released immediately is simply a way to ramp up suspicion of malfeasance on Mueller’s part and so perpetuate the questioning of the investigation’s legitimacy even as it moves steadily forward with interviews with Sessions, etc etc. This crap worked to undermine faith in Hillary on the left. I hope we’re not so stupid as to fall for it again. When the memo is released, nothing will happen. If there was any there, there, the FBI would have received a copy. The last time this GOP committee released a memo it was a nothing burger of information already available. Didn’t stop them from ramping it up beforehand to work up the base and generate suspicion. Thank goodness most Americans are getting smart to political spin and propaganda. We need to become a lot more discerning.

  222. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    Wobblie– I don’t know if this will help, but the W-4 does not use the term ‘standardized deduction’ because, when you add up your ‘allowances,’ you are estimating your tax obligation with ‘allowances’ for the standardized deduction. Generally speaking, if you have more than one job or itemize your deductions or have a change in your circumstance (marriage, divorce, new child), the withholding for a single w-4 may be thrown off from what you actually owe. So I’m sure the IRS does not want to place itself on the position of taking responsibility for being entirely accurate in the estimated tax owed that the withholding tables present. That’s your responsibility as a tax payer.

  223. Jcp2
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    The increase in the standard deduction is offset by the reduction of the personal exemption from 4050 per filer to 0, from 2017 to 2018.

  224. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    Not to mention what a tizzy Michigan lawmakers are in over what to do about the zeroing out of the personal exemption.

  225. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    Sorry, that breakfast menu comment wasn’t meant for here. It was for a lifestyles blog I like to chime in on. I was still asleep when I posted.

    Although HW never did weigh in on McDonalds?

  226. stupid hick
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    Taco Bell and Burger King both have a breakfast menu. Burger King is a reasonable value, but only if you use their monthly coupon. $4 gets you two croissant breakfast sandwiches. With a coupon you get a small order of tater tots and coffee too. They have another coupon where for an extra dollar you get a second tater tots and coffee. Like I said it’s not bad, but the coffee is not as good at McDonald’s, and consider that at McDonald’s the regular price for a sausage and biscuit is $1. I too want to hear what HW thinks about fast food.

  227. Jcp2
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    I used to get two McD breakfast burritos, hash brown, and coffee in the morning on the way to work. Then I skipped the hash brown. Then I just had one burrito. Now I make my own coffee with my choice of beans with a timed brewer at home, and have a cereal bar ready to go. The last time I had McD for breakfast was 20 pounds ago.

  228. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    “Jcp2 I understand that. JH and HW seems to think that some how the standard deduction plays a role in the W-4 form. HW was crowing about how the doubling of the standard deduction was going to effect peoples withholding and show up as a “big pay raise in February”.”

    Pretty sure I did not say that. Read what I say more carefully. I sure didn’t say it will be a “big” raise – it will be modest but it will effectively be a raise. I don’t think I tied the doubling of the standard deduction to the decrease in withholding either. It just ran together in your mind.

  229. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    The last time I had fast food must have been 1996. I had some “chicken” McNuggets that almost made me barf. I cook just about all my own food now.

  230. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    Jcp- That’s True. There should still be a modest net increase in take home pay for most employees once the new payroll tax withholding tables are released and implemented.

  231. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    The increase in the standardized deduction is offset SOMEWHAT by the elimination of the personal exemption.
    This is an inane conversation.

  232. Maria E. Huffman
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    I bought a burger at Burger King for one dollar and six cents the other day. and got a tap water. .. that is pretty cheap.

  233. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    But how was it? Burger King doesn’t seem so popular with other commenters.

  234. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Now Starbucks , because of the tax cut, are giving employees wage increases and stock. Ba-da-boom. Both of ILs concerns.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/24/starbucks-to-boost-pay-and-benefits-after-us-lowers-corporate-taxes.html

  235. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    HW, I was paraphrasing you. Your right you did not say big raise. You said, “The standard deduction is doubled so that helps everyone but especially low wage earners. Most people will get a raise in February.”

    Your and JH’s confusion about tax rates, standard deductions etc. is exactly why the political elite working for the corporations were able to convince HW that this tax reform would benefit most of us. It will mostly help those who have had insufficient income and insufficient itemized deductions. Since as near as I can tell they never actually

    The W-4 form that you submit to your employer, is used by the employer to calculate how much is withheld. As I mentioned in my first post on this subject, you can claim as many deductions on the W-4 as you want. You can in fact claim more deductions than you have, but you may end up owing taxes in the end. It is all a matter of whether or not you want your money in your pay check each week, or want to get a tax return check. The W-4 form only purpose is to ensure that the employer is deducting taxes from your regular pay check.

    As St. Ronald pointed out to everyone in the early 80’s you can claim more deductions on the W-4 form than you ultimately claim on your tax return.

    The Standard Deduction is some thing the Individual Tax filer claims when they file there 1040 form. It has nothing to do with your regular tax withholding.

  236. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Here is a link to the new tax rates, and the income levels that they apply. Most wage earners will see a 3% reduction in their tax rate. I believe that is what HW was trying to refer when he talked about a “raise” in February.

    As I pointed out above, whether you actually will see that “raise” in February depends entirely upon what you had previously told your employer you wanted withheld.

    https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets/

  237. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Yes Wobblie. So for the Starbucks workers 3% plus whatever Starbucks gives them, it’s progress. And the add on effects that a raise at Starbucks starts to put pressure on other employers to raise their wages. I’m not saying it will happen, but it could? It would be funny if Trump does end up being the one who raises the wages of working people.

  238. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Sad, you might be right except that they are getting ready to go after service workers tip income in new and different ways.

  239. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    https://www.eater.com/2017/12/5/16708374/tipping-laws-trump-department-of-labor-changes

  240. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Could be. But do you think the Starbucks baristas are going to give their tips to the corporation? Those kids are fierce.

  241. Iron lung
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    3 cents on the dollar.

  242. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– The amount of tax withheld in payroll, as calculated by one’s w-4, is intended to be an estimate of all taxes owed, including the standard deduction. That is the basis for the tax table. Yes, a person can claim fewer allowances than one is qualified for, and so pay excess tax or allow for other income, but the table is still based on the standard exemption along with the income bracket tax rate associated with your income level from that job You can not claim more exemptions than you are allowed, so one can not give oneself a tax break without penalty. Most people, unless they change their W-4 this month, will see an increase in their take home pay. The payroll tax calculator is being updated as we speak to work in the new tax law. The payroll tax tables are not made up out of nothing, and employees can not do what they want with them apart from handing over extra money to the govt. to hold until they file in 2019. All taxpayers are required to pay a reasonable estimate of their taxes owed each quarter or they will face penalty charges.

    “In most situations, the tax withheld from your pay will be close to the tax you figure on your return if you follow these two rules.
    You accurately complete all the Form W–4 worksheets that apply to you.
    You give your employer a new Form W–4 when changes occur.”

  243. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2018 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    I want to be clear that I don’t support the new tax law as constructed. I also found the rhetoric on the left to be heavy handed re corporate tax breaks. I had larger issues with the personal income tax changes. I hate seeing the working class be thrilled with a few pennies added to their paycheck, while the wealthy will net thousands.

    I do not credit Trump for lowering the corporate tax rate. The GOP have been trying to get this done for ages. As did Obama, who encountered obstructionism from both sides– the GOP saying it was still too high a rate and the left seeing it as a corporate giveaway. Most economists think the rate was lowered more than necessary.

    Wages have been steadily going up for 5 years. Starbucks may want to credit their tax break for the slight raise for political reasons (they netted 450 million and will be handing employees half of that), but everyone in that sector is hiring and raising wages anyway and retention is becoming more and more important. They are doing what the labor market requires.

    No one who understands anything about economics credits the president with the course of the economy in his first or even second year in office. It’s stupid to do so. He alone has little durable influence over it at all. The Chairman of the Federal Reserve has much more influence. No one is talking about the Jerome Powell here…

    Listening to the global elite lick the boots of Trump right now truly makes me ill. I don;t know how people like HW can buy his populist rhetoric after he just keeps giving hand outs to the most wealthy while throwing the rest of us crumbs.

    Our nations budget should not be using tax cuts or budget expenditures as bribes to garner political allegiance rather than prudent investments in the overall economy. Especially when it just kicks the debt and other long term costs of scuh actions down the line.

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