Holy shit. Today was too much… The whistleblower’s complaint goes public, and Trump responds by referencing the execution of traitors

The above quote comes directly from the whistleblower’s complaint, which came out this morning, just as acting Director of National Intelligence (DNI) Joseph Maguire was getting ready to testify before the House Intelligence Committee. If you haven’t read it by now, or listened to it, you really should… Speaking of which, a number of cowardly Republican members of Congress are claiming not to have read the whistleblower’s complaint, as they clearly don’t want to answer questions about the details, which are incredibly disturbing, and paint the portrait of a thoroughly corrupt administration that’s completely out of control. [If you have a moment tomorrow, and you’ve got an elected official who is claiming not to have read the whistleblower’s complaint, I’d encourage you to call their office and offer to read it to them. It’s only nine pages long.]

And, after you’ve read the whistleblower’s complaint — which, again, was found to be both “credible” and “urgent” by Michael Atkinson, the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community (IGIC) appointed by Trump — I’d suggest watching the video of acting DNI Maguire being questioned by members of the House Intelligence Committee, and telling them that the whistleblower, in his opinion, “did the right thing” and “followed the law every step of the way.”

[Maguire, for what it’s worth, never sufficiently explained why his first call, upon receiving the whistleblower’s complaint, was to the very members of the Trump administration, who, in the complaint, are accused of having hidden, and likely destroyed, information concerning the President’s communication with Ukrainian officials, instead of going directly to Congress, as stipulated by law. And he didn’t give a satisfactory answer when asked why he’d worked with the Trump administration and the DOJ to keep the information hidden from Congress for an entire month. Maguire did, however, stand up for the IGIC and the whistleblower, who he repeatedly said did everything by the book.]

Trump, apparently didn’t agree with his DNI’s assessment, essentially saying in a closed-door session this afternoon that the members of the intelligence community who confided in the whistleblower should be executed for having committed “treason”, which is pretty much textbook witness intimidation. [How many more people are likely to come forward now that the President is talking about executions, the DNI is making it clear that the administration can kill whistleblower complaints, the New York Times is threatening to identify whistleblowers?] Here, if you’ve yet to hear it, is the audio of Trump alluding to executions.

And, of course, Donald Trump wasn’t just saying shit like this in private. He was also all over social media, screaming in all-caps about how the Democrats needed to be stopped, how this was all an attempt on their part to destroy the country, etc.

I know we’ve been over this several times this past week, but, for those of you who might be new to this, here’s what actually happened… Members of the Trump administration attempted to enlist the help of Ukrainian President Zelensky to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden in advance of the 2020 election. In the course of this campaign, Donald Trump called Zelensky, referenced how much we’d done for Ukraine in terms of foreign aid, how little they’d given back to us, and how we now need a “favor” from them. He then asked Zelensky to initiate an investigation into Joe Biden and his son. It should be noted that, prior to the call in question, Trump, without explanation, put a hold on nearly $400 million in foreign aid that had been allocated by Congress. The, after this call between Trump and Zelensky, according to the whistleblower’s complaint, members of the Trump White House attempted to erase any record of it having happened, moving records to a private server. But, approximately half a dozen members of the intelligence community, having witnessed what happened, brought these facts to the whistleblower, who then attempted to share them with Congress through accepted channels. The whistleblower, it’s worth noting, did not “leak” anything. He or she followed the accepted internal process, outlining the concerns and taking them to the ICIG, who found them to be both urgent and credible. The ICIG then took the whistleblower’s complaint to the DNI, and the DNI, instead of taking the complaint to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, as is mandated by law, took it to the White House and the DOJ… in spite of the fact that the complaint clearly states that a campaign has been underway in the White House to erase evidence of the entire episode. So the DNI, on behalf of the White House, then helps keep the complaint under wraps for approximately one month. The DNI, however, is called before Congress, the whistleblower, though their attorney, reaches out to request a meeting with the House Intelligence Committee, and someone in the administration makes the call that they’d be better just releasing the complaint, which happened this morning. And, now, with nothing at all left, those loyal to the administration are presenting not to have read the complaint, and going after the whistleblower, calling him or her a political operative, a spy working for the Democrats, etc. And it’s likely to get a whole lot uglier.

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95 Comments

  1. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 26, 2019 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    Schiff said, according to the transcript, Trump asked Ukraine president to “make up dirt” on Biden.

    Lie.

  2. iRobert
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    I do think it was not helpful that Schiff decided to “parody” (as he put it) the statements of the President, instead of just sticking to what Trump actually said. I would have hoped that the Democrats would be better strategists and more thoughtful about the seriousness of this process.

    Still, this notion Trump supporters seem to have that his conduct should be given a unique pass is bizarre.

  3. Elizabeth Rodriguiz
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 4:54 am | Permalink

    I’ve been reading about Henry VIII recently and how he dealt with people who challenged him or disagreed with him. I dunno. Trump’s behavior seems right on target. This is not a patriot who cares about the country, nor a person who cares about the world.

  4. Jean Henry
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    FF the transcript made public 2 days ago was heavily edited. So we don’t know.

  5. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    I’m thankful that Trump is investigating the past crimes of Biden. I hope Biden gets his due and don’t see anything wrong with anything released so far. It is not a crime to investigate criminal activity during the former administration, whether or not any of them are running for future office. Otherwise all criminals would continuously run for office and escape charges.

    The impeachment process started before Trump ever took office. Nearly 3 years of non-stop harassment and this is the best you can come up with? No wonder Schiff fabricated false charges. “A classic mafia shakedown” – hilarious.

    The Dems have perfected the technique of charging their opponents with the very acts which they themselves are guilty of. Cried wolf way too many times – no one is buying it except for those suffering from Trump derangement syndrome.

    You can impeach any President if you have a majority in the House. The Senate won’t go along and this will end up as nothing but a distraction running up to the election. I think when the hoardes of deep state actors get indicted, this distraction will be greatly diminished. Hoping for an October surprise one year early.

  6. iRobert
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    I’d feel more comfortable if Trump were wearing a Dick Tracey costume while he conducts his investigation of the Bidens.

    It’s nice of him to take some of the work off the shoulders of actual investigators. Trump’s probably a brilliant investigator, maybe the best ever.

  7. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    Aloha, I love this web site because in one spot it is possible to see several of the alternative realities my fellow citizens live in. The major tribes represented here are really like mirror images. “The Dems have perfected the technique of charging their opponents with the very acts which they themselves are guilty of.” EOS once tried to present her/himself as a principled Christian worried about sin. Her/his dissolution into a blithering apologist for some one as obviously morally turpid as Trump has been really sad to watch. I used to think that JH was the consummate liberal on this web site. Willing to rationalize any predation by the ruling elite. EOS has clearly one upt her on liberal relativism and rationalizations.
    I’ve been following this site for years, and I don’t think I have witnessed a transformation so complete as EOS—good work JH another convert.

    EOS wishing for war in October is so unchristian. Particularly since, you like I only know what has been released by the media. I know it does not matter because you have “faith” in your Leader.

  8. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    DD,

    You obviously don’t get it. The October surprise I am wishing for doesn’t have anything to do with war. The surprise will be when mass arrests are made of former office holders who committed real crimes.

    There is no moral relativism on my part. I thought I explained it so that you could understand earlier. At no time have I ever said that I approve of Trump’s morals. I haven’t rationalized anything nor adopted any inkling of liberal relativism. Which candidate do you think is absolutely moral?

    By your definitions, no moral person can ever participate in the political process because all the candidates/office holders are imperfect humans with moral failings. So if we consider politicians to be immoral, we must not participate at all and leave all the decisions in our country to those who identify as immoral themselves? I think that would be an absurd outcome.

    C’mon DD – you need to step up your game and make rational arguments.

  9. Sad
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Things have come to a pretty pass
    Our romance is growing flat
    For you like this and the other
    While I go for this and that

    Goodness knows what the end will be
    Oh, I don’t know where I’m at
    It looks as if we two will never be one
    Something must be done

    You say either and I say either
    You say neither and I say neither
    Either, either, neither, neither
    Let’s call the whole thing off

    But, oh, if we call the whole thing off
    Then we must part
    And, oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart

  10. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    The CIA is known for…spying. When they do it to Americans most would agree it is bad. But you think it’s good. You think CIA coup attempts on our President are fine. I never imagined I would run into people like that in life. Here I am though.

  11. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49848103

  12. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Maguire: “It did not meet the criteria for urgent concern.” i.e. it is trash.

  13. iRobert
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    Call me old-fashioned, but I was kinda thinking all presidents should be held to the same standards, and, you know, responsible for their actions. It never occurred to me to put a mentally and emotionally retarded guy in and that he would be treated as “special” and as an exception to be permitted to run amok. Don’t get me wrong though. I like it. If America is going to be destroyed, let’s go down spectacularly.

  14. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    Is that supposed to have some relevance to what is going on outside your head? I mean because you see him as retarded you think that affects reality? I don’t understand this kind of thinking. The penalty for treason is death. That’s a fact. You can’t change it with how you feel.

  15. Sam Stein by proxy
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    Some rich stuff happening on Fox right now, where TED CRUZ is lamenting that gun control won’t get done because Democrats are too focused on impeachment instead.

  16. M
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    The most interesting thing about all of this is watching Trump start to hint that, if the Republicans try to take him down, he has every intention of taking Pence down with him, leaving Peolsi the President of the United States. It’s terrifying, but absolutely fascinating at the same time.

  17. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Strange interpretation of “[Pence’s] calls were perfect.”

  18. Anonymous
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 10:11 am | Permalink

    Feinstein demands “word-for-word” transcript of Trump call at heart of impeachment inquiry http://hill.cm/0n00IB0

  19. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    I hope there is a recording. Then let’s have a word for word transcript of everything Feinstein ever said in front of her Chinese spy driver.

  20. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Jean Henry
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink
    FF the transcript made public 2 days ago was heavily edited. So we don’t know.

    Schiff grossly misrepresented the transcript we are all working from.

    The transcript does not show Trump asking that anyone “make up dirt” on anyone.

    It is not debatable. Schiff is a liar.

  21. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    FF doesn’t have any credibility here. Just saying. He likes to call people liars any time they say something he doesn’t like.

    EOS is in no way a moral person, imho, even if they may choose to see themselves in that way. I think they will overlook anything Trump does as long as he supports laws that make women second class citizens.

    All I can say is that although I know it simply isn’t going to happen, nothing would make me happier than if Pelosi became president. No, I take that back. I would be happier if she named HRC as her VP and then resigned.

  22. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Did the transcript show Trump asking for the Ukraine prez to “make up dirt”? Yes or no?

  23. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    @ Lynne,

    FF is the most credible person on this site.

    What have I written on this site that makes you conclude I am immoral? Does being pro-life make a person immoral in your opinion?

  24. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Would that mean you think anyone who believes differently from you is immoral?

  25. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Cassandra, I mean Lynne, just said she would be happy if things went a certain way and we could have Hillary as president….

    Cassandra, I mean Lynne, has a very low level of understanding of the world and a very low level of self-awareness.

    #justsaying

  26. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    iRob,

    Well we did cut Obama slack when he was giving away billions of dollars to Shia run governments and even when he made his world tour of bowing down to other leaders and apologizing for being American.

  27. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    FF, not in so many words. Is that your issue? That you are too dumb to see something like this in the transcript and not see how that could be interpreted as asking for dirt?:

    There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.

    I would be happy if the person who got the most votes in 2016 were to become president. I know enough of the world to know that is very unlikely. I don’t think you know enough off the world to be a good judge of my understanding of it. just sayin

    EOS, I know people like you like to call yourselves “pro-life” but in my opinion, you are not pro life. You are more anti-legal-abortion and frankly, yes, I consider that an immoral position. There are people who genuinely are pro-life and anti-abortion but you are not one of them. Those people support the things which have been proven to reduce abortions such as access to birth control and social programs which support people with children financially thus making not having an abortion more of a good choice. You would rather there be more abortions but not legal/safe ones.

  28. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    No, I support access to birth control that doesn’t itself induce abortions and I support social programs that provide financial assistance for people with children. I prefer less abortions, whether they are legal or not.

    It seems your stance is the intolerant one.

  29. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    I’m kinda dumb too. Which part says “make up dirt” to you? Help us out here.

    “There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.”

  30. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Does Ukraine or a Ukrainian oligarch have the DNC server? Did they collude with Crowdstrike? Who is the wealthy individual referred to? Hot trail

  31. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Aloha, There are many ways to be “corrupt” not all of them illegal. There is not a shred of evidence any where that anything Hunter Biden did was illegal. The evidence that Delaware Joe broke the law is open to debate. The only “evidence” is a UTube video of Joe bragging about getting the Ukraine prosecutor fired. Was he just being a braggart trying to sound tough? That is Trump’s basic defense in the Mueller obstruction of justice non-charges. Ukraine says Hunter broke no laws. There is no evidence that he broke any US laws. The Republicans argument of equivalence is very weak, but hey HW FF and EOS go ahead and run with it–Liberal lesser evil argument. (It all depends on the meaning of “is”).

    Tulsi (who is a majoritarian populist) has changed her position, because 1) With the whistle blower complaint made public, the phone call has a different light ie. there is alleged by the whistle blower more witnesses and more wrong doing) and 2) If true, it would be grounds for impeachment and removal from office. 3) She would not be switching her position if she did not believe that a majority of Americans were not in favor of investigation and possible impeachment.
    I suspect we will see in the next week to 10 days if the Republicans circle the wagons, or decide their future lies with dumping Trump (assuming the Democrats drag these witnesses before them, starting with the Whistle Blower). But who know maybe the Deep State has over reached and blown its cover.

  32. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    I think Trump was suggesting that Ukraine find someone who will say that Biden stopped the investigation into his son. Context matters. He stopped aid. Then starts up with this talk? Sometimes words alone don’t tell the whole story. This is like when a mobster says “nice store you have here, shame if anything happened to it”. Most people recognize that as a threat and most people can see that what Trump was doing in his phone call with the Ukrainian president was essentially saying, “we are good to you by giving you money, shame if we had to stop that. I need a favor, I need you to give me this dirt on Biden”

    EOS, I am glad to hear that I was wrong about your stance on birth control. Other than abortions themselves, there are literally no forms of birth control which cause abortions. So you are in favor of providing free birth control to all as well as supporting things like health insurance for poor people That is awesome. Yet you still are in favor of not allowing women to make their own medical decisions about their own bodies, thus making them legally second class citizens so you still cannot claim any moral high ground

  33. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    fwiw, I was VERY pleased to see in my 8th district forum which I am in because that is my parents’ district, that even a lot of the more conservative commenters are not going to hold this against Slotkin. They mostly seem to admire that she is the sort who will do the right thing even if it costs her politically. The only ones angry with her for supporting impeachment are those who didn’t vote for her in the first place. Of course, she is up for re-election in 2020 so we will see then but I think she may be re-elected

  34. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    Did you see the video where the Ukrainian president denied that Trump had in any way tried to force him to investigate? Your bias makes you see things between the lines that don’t exist with rational thinkers.

    Stop trying to redefine my positions. Many forms of birth control prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg into the endometrium, thereby destroying human life. I don’t favor free birth control for all. Medicaid already provides free health insurance for the poor. Women can do whatever they want with their own bodies but this isn’t inclusive of destroying another body that is temporarily residing in it.

    You certainly can’t claim any moral high ground if you advocate killing human life just because a mother thinks it may be inconvenient.

  35. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    EOS, I am sorry for thinking even for a second that you had a shred of decency in you. It will not happen again. I do claim moral high ground because I don’t think anyone should be forced to use their bodies to support the life of another. I don’t think you should be rounded up and forced to donate organs or even blood, even if it means that someone dies, and I don’t think women should be forced to be incubators. I also don’t believe that embryos count as “life” but that doesn’t matter too much because as I said, I don’t support people being forced to use their bodies even if the person dying is an adult.

    But fwiw, when you say that you don’t support birth control which causes abortions, you should know that abortion is a word that means the termination of a pregnancy. If the fertilized egg doesn’t implant, there is no pregnancy, therefore it is just simply inaccurate to state that birth control methods which work by preventing implantation are causing abortions. I think I can be forgiven for my confusion. I wasn’t putting words into your mouth, I was taking your actual words and giving them conventional meaning. If you mean something different, you should say it.

    It is clear that we have different ideas of what is moral or not. You think it is ok to make women second class citizens. You think it is ok to round up brown people and put them into concentration camps. And apparently you also think it is ok for our president to put pressure on foreign governments to get dirt on his political opponents. I have a different idea of what is morally correct. Clearly.

  36. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Aloha, I found this little article about the Ukrainian investigation into the natural gas company that Hunter was on the Board. According to the leader of the anti-corruption investigative unit, the investigation is ongoing and covers a period prior to when Hunter was on the Board.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-whistleblower-ukraine-buris-idUSKBN1WC1LV

    I also heard that that same investigation (it has to do with Ukraine Ecology Dept. granting gas permits to the natural gas co.) which has been ongoing since the corrupt prosecutor Joe bragged about ,was fired, has resulted in several cases being settled by the Corporation ie. the State prevailing against the Corp. at some level.

    The anti-investigation folks equivalency argument (which most of you know I am a sucker for) is looking weaker and weaker the more I look.

  37. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Cassandra thinks it is wise to go all in on trying to nullify our democratic processes; in so doing disenfranchising millions, and all that entails; based upon her and Schiff’s so-called intelligent interpretations of Trump’s apparent request (if we are to believe the transcripts) for the Ukraine president to investigate corruption which, among other things, might include Biden’s son?

    Investigate corruption=make up dirt (?)

    Cassandra is a genius.

  38. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    It is not usually stated as an equivalency argument though.

    There is a difference between saying “you did it too” and “you are accusing me of doing something I did not do but that you might have actually done”.

  39. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Aloha FF, “our democratic processes; in so doing disenfranchising millions” some would argue that that is exactly what the electoral college vote did—but that would be an equivalency argument.

    “Investigate corruption=make up dirt (?)” isn’t that exactly what the Democratic investigation is about?

    I wonder what kind of communications there are between Barr–the person appointed by Trump to investigate the origins of Russiagate, and the Ukrainian Prosecutors office, or anti-corruption office–it does seem horribly unseemly that our Chief Executive has debased himself to this level ie. being the investigator on corruption matters when we provide him with an entire Justice Department and FBI. It’s kinda like Nixon trying to figure out where to get hush money–can’t count on the Government when doing illegal actions under the cover of your official position.

  40. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    investigate corruption is investigate corruption.

    making up dirt is making up dirt.

    making up dirt under the guise of investigating corruption is making up dirt under the guise of investigating corruption.

  41. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 3:45 pm | Permalink

    I support arguments for continuing to use the electoral college system. It was the system if in place when Trump won. If people want to come up with arguments against the electoral college system in the hopes of changing that system they should do it.

  42. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    FF, do you think ‘Cassandra’ is some kind of insult? The context in which you are using it here tells me that you are not especially well-read. I will save you the time. Cassandra was given the gift of prophecy and thus was always right. She was cursed so that no one would believe her. So, unless you are suggesting that I am correct all of the time, you may want to find something else to call me.

    Yes, I do think that there is evidence for further investigation which is what an impeachment inquiry is. I guess someone who hasn’t read the Iliad may also not be educated enough to know what is happening in government. The context of that statement really does suggest that it is possible that Trump was pressuring Ukraine to come up with some dirt on Biden and specifically spells out what kind of dirt he is looking for.

  43. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    My bad, I said Iliad up there but I meant Aeneid.

  44. Sad
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

    “Let me rage before I die.”

    ― Virgil, The Aeneid

  45. Jean Henry
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Yo! fF
    Impeachment is required by the constitution in such cases. To not pursue it would ‘nullify our democratic processes.’

    WhT part of checks and balances don’t you understand?
    What part of “Do me a favor…” 8 days after cutting off aid doesn’t sound like implied quid pro quo.

    Most defense of Trump that’s not a counter attack (FF’s preferred mode) comes down to he’s just like that… like what? A mob boss?

    No it’s not acceptable. It’s for sure impeachable. And the impeachment won’t pass the senate to remove him from office. Which he will call an exoneration. Again. But at least the public get to see a few folks holding the line for reasonable and Legal presidential conduct. The Dems make their case; Trump gets to make his case. What’s the fuss?

    The election is coming in a year. Thank god.

  46. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 5:55 pm | Permalink

    I fear others here would pick something more like “Furens quid Femina possit.” – also Virgil

    LOL. I will save you the trouble of finding a translation. It is “what a woman can do in a rage”

  47. Cassandra
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    I do like it that we can say things now like “Nice nuts you have there, FF. It would be a shame if anyone kicked them” without him thinking that it is a threat as opposed to just an expression of concern.

  48. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    “I wonder what kind of communications there are between Barr–the person appointed by Trump to investigate the origins of Russiagate, and the Ukrainian Prosecutors office, or anti-corruption office–it does seem horribly unseemly that our Chief Executive has debased himself to this level ie. being the investigator on corruption matters when we provide him with an entire Justice Department and FBI. It’s kinda like Nixon trying to figure out where to get hush money–can’t count on the Government when doing illegal actions under the cover of your official position.”

    Trying to make sense of this. Trump is the investigator? What?

  49. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 7:29 pm | Permalink

    JH,

    You are talking about “it”and “such cases” as impeachable. That is your choice but I am not even sure that statement has much meaning….It seems to me you are pretending there is some sort of objective standard. There isn’t. There are guidelines and historically we have been cautious with the power to impeach but what is “impeachable” ultimately is whatever someone gets impeached on…

    Does “it” include the notion that Trump asked for the Ukraine prez to “make up dirt”? Yes or no? I don’t understand the idea that I am making some sort of unneccessary fuss. Shouldn’t each of us try to figure out what “it” is and what this case actually entails? It sounds like you think you have it figured out so tell me was Schiff lying about “it” on day one or not? Isn’t figuring out what “it” is a normal part of the process?

  50. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Cassandra,

    That sounds exactly like something Lynne would say.

  51. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Schiff seems to be a Cassandra of sorts too but her curse is not just her curse because it is kind of our curse too isn’t it?

    He said, the fact that his “parody” was not immediatlely understood as “parody” was indicative of an underlying truth….He also said his “parody” was representative of how Ukraine prez actually received the message from Trump (despite the fact that the Ukraine prez said he did not receive the message that way.)

    Do you get it? Schiff=Cassandra

    Just ask Lynne.

    It would seem Ukraine prez is in a privilege position to

  52. iRobert
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    HW: “Is that supposed to have some relevance to what is going on outside your head? I mean because you see him as retarded you think that affects reality? I don’t understand this kind of thinking. The penalty for treason is death. That’s a fact. You can’t change it with how you feel.”

    Trumps behavior is really unusual. There aren’t that many people you’d ever meet who act like he does. I’m sure you see it too. I’m certain it’s not just in my head.

  53. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Unusual in this case is good. The past presidents are criminal puppets. For some reason you don’t want it but I think you will find it is what we need.

  54. Sad
    Posted September 27, 2019 at 9:28 pm | Permalink

    What’s going on?

    https://youtu.be/H-kA3UtBj4M

  55. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Aloha, It is really pathetic to see the Trumpers try to make something out of the whole Joe/Hunter Biden Ukraine situation. It is like they do not know the difference between “legal” corruption and illegal corruption. Everyone wants to know “How did Hunter get a job he was not qualified for?” Happens all the time to the scions of rich or powerful folks.
    People forget how often and open this kind of “legal” corruption occurs.
    I remember where our “great” Governor Engler gave three sitting Michigan Supreme Court Judges wife’s six figure jobs. Of course they all ruled in favor of Engler on several suits which attempted to reign in “King John’s ” ever expansion of executive authority. I served with our current Chief Judge Markman’s wife. King John repeatedly appointed her to positions that she had no qualifications for, and the Republican senate repeatedly confirmed her—no illegality there. Democratic Party folks have been trying to catch up with Republicans ever since they became Republican Light under Clinton.

  56. Sad
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Here you go DD.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/hunter-bidens-legal-socially-acceptable-corruption/598804/

    Everything is horrible!

  57. Karl
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    “Murder is against the law.”

    “Not so fast. So is (name some other crime that isn’t nearly as bad).”

    You people crack me up.

    What Biden’s son did, and what other asshole kids of rich and powerful parents have done, is shitty, and it should be stopped if possible, but it’s not the same as the President of the United States encouraging a foreign government to interfere in our elections. To begin with, one is illegal. The other is not.

    You’re welcome.

    Glad I could help.

  58. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Aloha, Is this an example of rats jumping ship? Would really like to know what he has to say.

    “Executive Director of the McCain Institute Kurt Volker resigned from his position as the U.S. Special Envoy for Ukraine Friday, following reports he collaborated with Ukraine and President Donald Trump”

    https://www.statepress.com/article/2019/09/sppolitics-mccain-head-steps-down

  59. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    Aloha, A challenge for those Trump supporters who believe Trump was going to “drain the swamp” of political corruption–name one piece of legislation passed by the Republican controlled Congress between 2017 and this most recent Congress in 2019. If you can’t find one (spoiler alert, I was unable) Come up with one executive order your “drain the swamp” President has issued that could be anti-corruption towards political insiders.
    My admittedly limited search came up with this,
    https://medium.com/@adakuufere/trump-scraps-anti-corruption-legislation-on-oil-and-gas-aa966ba14ff3

  60. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    Karl, voice of reason, is much needed round these parts. He won’t last. Refreshing though.

  61. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Aloha, Another interesting factoid. Why do you suppose the Republicans have blocked the publication of proposed rules governing foreign involvement in US elections. Since they blocked the publication of the journal that contained the proposed rules, the FEC chairperson tweeted the entire journal.

    https://twitter.com/EllenLWeintraub/status/1177720217759297536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1177911553145933824&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F100212517769

  62. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Aloha, Here is a copy of the document the Republicans did not want to be published. This was part of an agenda packet for the Commissions next meeting. It is a “Draft Interpretive Rule Concerning Prohibited Activities Involving Foreign Nationals “. Can’t talk about it, if it is not on the Agenda eh. So much for Republicans wanting to drain the swamp.

    https://www.fec.gov/resources/cms-content/documents/mtgdoc_19-41-A.pdf

  63. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    FF seems to think that if a politician says something that is not proven as a self-proclaimed parody (something the GOP and Pres never admit when they spin their narratives), then that person is a a big fat lying, lying liar. And if that person is a liar liar pants on fire then its only reasonable to assume that ALL CHARGES AGAINST THE PRESIDENT ARE LIES.

    Le Logicien: if a dog has 4 paws and a dogs has four paws then a dog is a cat.– Ionesco (roughly–please do not call me a liar)

    Meanwhile FF also puts forward the standard false equivalency pivot narrative dictated by the GOP talking point wizards. Because logic…and reason, crudely applied in service of bias, don’t discern well between two things that look the even slightly similar. And the master manipulators know that. And you all are grand fools no matter how this turns out.

  64. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    FEC thing is useful. Thanks DD.

    Amazing that now finally inextricably cornered on foreign interference in elections, Trump and co (esp Joseph Maguire) are wondering out loud if it’s illegal. Duh. Yes, it’s illegal.

  65. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    DD– Ellen Weintraub may be the last person standing at the FEC– It’s been gutted. I suspect they’ll can her without replacement soon enough too.

  66. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Aloha, I expect that this language will figure prominently in the impeachment proceedings, “The Act also prohibits any person from soliciting, accepting, or receiving a contribution from a foreign national. 52 U.S.C. 30121(a)(2). To solicit means “to ask, request, or recommend, explicitly or implicitly, that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value.”11 CFR §110.20(a)(6) (citing 11CFR23§300.2(m)).

  67. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    RE gutting of FEC: https://publicintegrity.org/federal-politics/fec-federal-election-commission-trump-mcconnell-schumer/

    It amazes me that people aren’t seeing the quid pro quo in freezing urgently needed funds and then making a demand of that country’s foreign leader. If I take away my kids allowance and then make a demand, they understand they need to do what I ask until normal status is restored. Of course I would never apply a consequence without cause… because I’m not corrupt.

  68. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    Why isn’t Ellen Weintraub all over the news? Get her up there. Let’s talk about free and fair elections. Let’s talk about the threat of foreign interference in elections. All of that could be woven in to the coverage of the impeachment inquiry. And I wouldn’t be so fucking bored.

  69. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    I think we can all at least agree that someone named Hunter Biden working on Ukrainian oil deals is probably a privileged, self-dealing amoral asshole. There are so many Hunter Biden’s. They are not president though.

  70. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Aloha JH, Coats firing as Director of National Intelligence 3 days after the phone call, and Trumps insistence that the acting Director not be an Sue Gordon, but rather a political hack and lobbyist now looks a little different than it did back in July.

    One of the main reasons I support Tulsi, is she is not corrupt. Her actions in supporting Sanders in 2016 rather than continue to suck at the tit of establishment Democratic corruption was courageous. As she says she has the courage to stand up to the Generals, Lobbyist and Congressional corruption that makes up the military industrial security congressional “complex”. It is why she can appeal to some one like me, and some one like Ron Paul.

  71. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Yeah I get that DD. I’m not keen on populists as you know, but they do for sure appeal to people from all sides. Tulsi seems like many very principled libertarians I know. I respect them. I think they are often far short of the mark. And, in the end, while they have broad appeal, it’s not deep.

    I heard Tulsi interviewed the other day. It all seemed like statements of principle, but when asked to talk about her religious beliefs and history of opposition to LGBTQ rights, she evaded answers. Then when pressed accused the interviewer of bias. Sigh. They are all the same. She’s no more honest or courageous than any of them. None of them are honest where it counts (aka where it may hurt). It’s part of the job. I get it. But I believe the business of politics is in conflict with being a person who lives their principles. As a friend said, they aren’t principles until they cost you something. Tulsi has risked nothing in her political stances. She won’t make the presidency sure, but she wouldn’t have any way. She’s not going to be the nominee. That her supporters (like Bernie’s did) will fall back on conspiracy theories as to why only makes her less appealing. She doesn’t;t have the right message for this moment for enough of the people. I can see why she has the right message for you for this moment, but you and people like you aren’t in the majority in the US.

  72. Frosted Flakes
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I am saying Schiff lied because Schiff lied. Rather than confront that fact you choose to spin out a lot of non sense. Why waste your time pretending other people are thinking all of the ridiculous things you imagine other people are thinking?

  73. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Alaho JH, You were listening to the hack NPR interview I suspect. She has talked at extreme length on the issues the reporter kept wanting to come back to. It reflected a total absence of preparation by the reporter, or more likely, questions designed to smear.

    Tulsi is not a libertarian. She is a majoritarian.

    “That her supporters (like Bernie’s did) will fall back on conspiracy theories as to why only makes her less appealing. ” as an apologist of the corrupt Democratic Party establishment this statement is no surprise. You never bothered to read the DNC emails did you.

  74. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    You people seriously think it is illegal to say what he did to Zelensky? Exactly what law confers immunity to opposition candidates? Ukraine has the goods as President Trump alluded to. The freakout now is because it’s all about to come out about Biden, Blinton and a whole shitload of others. Democrats colluded with Ukraine to frame Trump as I have maintained for a long time previous to these public revelations.

  75. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    HW__”Exactly what law confers immunity to opposition candidates?” None. The President doesn’t solicit foreign leaders as assets for such investigations. We have an intelligence service to do that. I know you don’t trust them, quite reasonably for the most part, but many of us also do not trust Trump. equally reasonably. And yes, look at the FEC report DD linked. Its illegal to solicit aid in elections from foreign leaders. And whether or not Trump’s motivation for the request was about illegal action or the election (but, really C’mon…), it was inaapropriate and likely illegal.

  76. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Lots of talk today about how Mitch might obstruct a trial via his standard legislative rules jujitsu. If he does, I think the GOP is over. But I’ve been wrong before. I’m wondering if McConnell can be held in contempt for obstruction of the properly conducted, democratically expressed will of the people.

  77. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    “She is a majoritarian.” –DD. Well then she better get her majority…

    Majoritarian precisely spotlights my issues with her. The tyranny of the majority. America, to meet it’s own egalitarian ideals and it’s nation of immigrants legacy and contemporary reality, can not afford to ignore the needs of marginalized and targeted populations. They deserve adequate voice in the process which is why we have a representative democratic system that is FINALLY evolving to actually become one.

    Of course she doesn’t care about LGBTQ rights. She actually went beyond that though. She worked against them. And I have checked and I have yet to see an adequate explanation.

  78. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Please don’t hit me with her voting record and public statement. LGBTQ people in her own district don’t buy it. When a favored politician can engender the support of her own constituents then something is up.

    https://mauitime.com/news/politics/heres-why-the-hawaii-lgbt-caucus-doesnt-support-rep-tulsi-gabbards-reelection-campaign/

  79. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    can’t*

  80. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    What makes you think the President cannot request a country provide assistance with an investigation? Especially a country that has a treaty with the USA that they MUST do exactly that (signed by Clinton). ESPECIALLY since your 2016 candidate paid for Russian lies to…affect the outcome of the election!!! It’s incredible what you do in the strictest sense of the word.

  81. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    long pause

  82. Jean Henry
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    ‘Long pause’ — I have a life. When we go quiet it’s not because you made some valid point. It’s often because your point is so far outside of the realm of reality as to require excessive effort to address.

    Or that we are elsewhere.

    Your self delusion is not worth our time.

    No it’s not ok. There are procedures in place for such endeavors. They exist for good reason. Reasons of national security. That Trump is too fucking stupid to understand the implications of his actions is an insanity defense.

    Read the statutes. It’s illegal on many counts from many perspectives (elections or international diplomacy). HRC’s campaign did not solicit a world leader for aid. They hired an ex spy to do opposition research. Trump can do that too. It’s not illegal but it is morally questionable. However, he can’t legally ask a world leader for opposition research period– much less in exchange for releasing recently frozen federal aid. He asked for ’reciprocity.’ That’s corruption. It’s also self dealing. The FBI or state department could instruct him to ask for assistance on the hunter biden investigation. But that investigation was already closed long ago. The president does not get to initiate investigations on US citizens all by himself.

    I know this throws a wrinkle in your October surprise theory. I always wondered how you thought all intelligence services corrupt but then also thought they were stockpiling sealed indictments for some grand political day of reckoning/rapture.

    Your double standard is showing HW not mine.

  83. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    “Opposition research” from a British spy with Russian sources that turned out to be bogus. That’s fraud meant to destroy our President. Outside reality? That’s ridiculous. I have been beasting on you with reality for years. I even use your sources. You just pretend it doesn’t happen. You do shut your ass up though. Example: I dropped that nuke on all of you about antifa and not one of you has said shit about that fact or about antifa at all since.

  84. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    How is investigating a (probable) crime that has evidence just dangling out there “opposition research”? You use that term to hide behind. You call the dossier that even after it turned out to be nothing. Video of Trump with Russian prostitutes peeing on each other? Are you fucking serious?! How come no video was ever produced and no evidence at all? It’s garbage just like everything you attach to. I don’t understand what could compel someone to be that wrong all the time.

  85. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Aloha JH, Tulsi changed her position on equality for all before your Democratic Establishment paradigm of virtue Hillary did. Just saying.

  86. Sad
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    Mayor Pete is gay.

    Just saying.

  87. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    X22 Report gets you up to speed

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnYsXGpgl7s

  88. Sad
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    Man. FF with all his words and you with all of your videos.

    Whatever…….

    I just gave antifa your address buddy.

  89. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    I bet wish you could, you nice person.

  90. Sad
    Posted September 28, 2019 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

    I gave them your phone number too.

    867-5309

    Watch out!

  91. Jean Henry
    Posted September 29, 2019 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    DD– Tulsi worked against gay marriage as recently as 2003. Hillary has been committed to LGBTQ rights from the beginning of her political engagement. The public wasn’t ready, but she prioritized it. When BillC became president there first act was to push gays serving openly in the military. They got their asses handed to them by the public and congress and then compromised to “Don’t Ask Don;t Tell.” The other critical LGBTQ rights issue at the time was getting partnership benefits, including medical decision-making power, for gay couples. We were in the middle of the AIDS crisis. People were dying. There partners were being excluded from hospital rooms by other family, etc etc. DOMA was a compromise (with a terrible name) that provided necessary partnership benefits. It was a miracle it passed.

    I don’t think HRC is a paragon of virtue (nor would I want to her to be on), but her commitment to LGBTQ rights is well understood by those who were engaged the issues at the time which is why she had such wide support in that community.

    Tulsi is not even supported by LGBTQ people in her home district.

  92. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 29, 2019 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Aloha JH, I know that it is important to people like you to build up as much negativity towards Tulsi as possible. Her positives so clearly outweigh her negatives.

    President Barack Obama came out in support of same-sex marriage in 2012, and Hillary Clinton in 2013 and Tulsi changed her stance to support same-sex marriage in 2012. My believe is 2012 is earlier than 2013. 2003 was prior to Tulis’s life changing experiences in Iraq. She was 22/23 with no larger world experiences. Hard for you to get your head around I know.

  93. Posted September 29, 2019 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    From Politico:

    Support for impeachment jumps in new poll

    http://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/26/poll-support-impeachment-trump-1515012

  94. iRobert
    Posted September 29, 2019 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    I would feel a lot better if every Nee York Times front page headline started with “Holy Shit!…”

  95. dogmatic dolt
    Posted September 30, 2019 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    Aloha JH, Just as an aside. If we had majoritarean government Hilary would have been President for the last two years.

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