Omaha tribe elder Nathan Phillips of Ypsilanti is mocked by young Trump supporters in Washington, DC

Nathan Phillips

If you’ve been on social media today, you’ve likely seen footage of a smirking, young Trump supporter appearing to mock a Native American drummer in Washington, DC during yesterday’s Indigenous Peoples March. If the Native American man in the video looks familiar to those of you who, like me, live in Ypsilanti, Michigan, it’s because he’s our neighbor, Nathan Phillips. That’s him at the top of this post, in happier times, in a photo taken by local photographer Chris Stranad, just after I’d interviewed him on my old radio program, The Saturday Six Pack. [Damn, I miss that show.] Here, for those of you who might not have seen it yet, is footage of what transpired yesterday in DC.

And here’s a wider view of the same scene, in which you can see just how many young men were surrounding and mocking Nathan, who somehow managed to disregard their taunts… Afterward, in tears, Nathan, a veteran of the Vietnam era, said the young men had first approached him, chanting, “Build That Wall!

So, yeah, a bunch of privileged white kids apparently taunted a Native American veteran, chanting about how we need to build a wall, ostensibly to keep people like him out… Just think about that for a minute.

I don’t have a lot of time, as I need to get back to my kids, but here are my initial thoughts about this.

First, of course, it’s absolutely heartbreaking to see anyone, let alone someone you know, being surrounded and mocked like this. I’d like to say that we, as a nation, are better than this. And I’d like to take some solace in the fact that tens of thousands of people are sharing videos today, like the ones above, and expressing outrage. But it’s difficult to ignore the fact that it’s not just one young man confronting Nathan in these videos, but nearly 100. Clearly we’re dealing with something here that’s both systematic and structural… a real world manifestation of the cruel and xenophobic vision of America that Donald Trump has been so eloquently articulating for his white American supporters these past several years. [The good news is, in some videos, you can hear people calling out these young, referring to them as a racist mob.]

Second, I can’t imagine, if I were in a situation like this, that I would have anywhere near the grace, dignity, and self-control displayed by Nathan. It really is truly inspiring. [When I watch these videos, I get the same kind of feeling as I get when watching documentary footage of The Little Rock Nine making their way into Central High School on September 23, 1957.]

Third, and this is really strange… Not only do I know Nathan, but it’s conceivable that I may have actually come into contact with some of the kids in the crowd harassing him, as they’re from Covington Catholic High School in Covington, Kentucky, where my parents live, and where we just spent Christmas a few weeks ago. For what it’s worth, I don’t think these could possibly be the children and grandchildren of my parents’ friends, but the fact that they could be is just really depressing.

Fourth, this reminds me of something I witnessed not too long ago in DC, at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, just after attending the March for Our Lives demonstration with my daughter.

I didn’t get into it at the time, but these students, who, if memory serves, were from a midwestern state like Indiana, were incredibly disrespectful, running through the museum, making inappropriate comments, etc… I think, sadly, this is just something that happens when young conservatives come to DC without their parents. They get off their busses, they buy MAGA merchandise from street vendors, and they make it their mission to “own” as many liberals as they can by ironically flashing their “white power” hand signs, yelling things in public about how they support the wall, etc. I’m tempted to blame the chaperones, but these “kids” are old enough to know better. And, in my opinion, they’re old enough to face the consequences for their actions. And hopefully that’s exactly what happens once these kids who mocked Nathan are identified.

Fifth, according to the Detroit News, the kids from Covington were bussed to DC not to attend museums and the like, but to attend the March for Life anti-abortion rally. Make of that what you will.

Sixth, according to an interview with Nathan just posted by the Washington Post, the young man standing in front of him in the video had stepped in his way, blocking him from moving forward. “It was getting ugly, and I was thinking: ‘I’ve got to find myself an exit out of this situation and finish my song at the Lincoln Memorial,’” Phillips recalled. “I started going that way, and that guy in the hat stood in my way and we were at an impasse. He just blocked my way and wouldn’t allow me to retreat.”

Seventh, I’m reminded of the fact that, the last time I had a real discussion with Nathan it was a few years ago, when, according to Nathan, he’d been taunted by drunken Eastern Michigan University students in “redface,” who, calling themselves “Hurons,” had told him to “go back to the fucking reservation.” So, sadly, this isn’t exactly something new for Nathan. [If you follow that last link, you’ll find my notes and photos from the episode of the Saturday Six Pack that Nathan joined me on, which was all about Eastern Michigan University’s insistence on bringing back their racist Native American mascot.]

OK, I’m going to show my kids these videos now, and ask them what they’d do if they ever found themselves in a situation like this. Here’s hoping they respond like the decent human beings I know them to be.

UPDATE: Since first posting this, additional facts about this incident have come to light. Most notably, before Nathan arrived, there was a somewhat heated exchange between the young white men shown in these video and a small group of about four or five black men identifying themselves as Black Hebrew Israelites. According to Nathan, he’d sought to defuse the situation by placing himself between these two groups. The following is from today’s Detroit Free Press.

UPDATE: Great Detroit music photographer Doug Coombe just reminded me that he was on that episode of The Saturday Six Pack as well… and he took photos. Here are Nathan and I talking.

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523 Comments

  1. Cindy
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Praying that Mr. Phillips will forgive the actions of some stupid kids! “Forgive them for they know not what they do”! I am a Catholic with Native American ancestry in my family tree. I never taught my children to act this way towards people who are different from us. As Catholic we are not taught to feel this way. I blame the parents for not teaching these children better. Perhaps, if they were made to attend a Native American reservation school somewhere they would learn respect really fast! As a Catholic and a parent who has two grown children I am saddened by what happened. These boys don’t represent how I feel! Thank you for your service to our country as a soldier in Vietnam!

  2. Kate
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    I urge everyone to write to the school (and the Covington Diocese of which the school is a part) and let them know your view of these young men’s abhorrent values.
    Here is the Covington Catholic High School contact info:
    1600 Dixie Highway
    Park Hills, KY 41011
    Phone (859) 491-2247 Email addresses of administrators mguidugli@covcath.org, dkohlhepp@covcath.org, eeviston@covcath.org

  3. Jean Henry
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/covington-catholic-high-school-nathan-phillips.html

  4. Bob
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian Fucklord and his fraternity brothers on holiday. Jesus, America sucks.

  5. ElsieGal
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    I don’t comment often, though I am a devoted reader, and I try to stay pretty neutral and upbeat (and bland) when I do, but I just can’t do that today. This post really got to me, and all I can say is that when I see young people acting like the ones who displayed such contempt and disrespect in the video you shared and other coverage I’ve seen, I am really really glad I don’t have children because it would break my heart to see them behave like these children. I hope these folks are simply naive beings who’ve yet to be exposed to the beauty and grandeur and complexity of the larger world. I hope they will come to appreciate and honor and value people and things that now appear to inspire their disdain. I hope. I hope. One last comment: the portrait at the top of the post is mesmerizing and beautiful.

  6. Cathy
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Phillips, according to this guy, was the aggressor.

    https://twitter.com/JoeySalads/status/1086767959547117568

  7. Kyle Griffin by proxy
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    The Diocese of Covington and Covington Catholic High School said they condemn the actions of students towards Nathan Phillips, deeply apologize to Phillips, are investigating the matter and “will take appropriate action, up to and including expulsion.” https://bit.ly/2TZn5Dm

  8. Margaret
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Dear Mr. Phillips,
    Thank you for reminding us how to hold yourself with dignity in the face of stupidity and ignorance. I want to thank you for your service to our country too . I respect you and your Omaha Tribe. The junior catholic Trump supporters should be ashamed.

  9. John Brown
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Their dads all have bunkers with barrels of ammo. We’re going to have to confront this Nazis shit.

  10. Mehdi Hasan ‏ by proxy
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    An entire generation of young white boys and men are being radicalized by Trump in front of our very eyes.

    Impeachment or no impeachment, defeat in 2020 or no defeat in 2020, I suspect it’s too late to put this particular #MAGA genie back in the bigoted bottle.

    https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1086686203938775040

  11. Gary Ford
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    How odd. If these misguided and spoiled brats actually thought about it, they would not be here if the native Americans 400 years ago had “Built That Wall”. If they truly despise immigrants, they should self deport. After all, they are on a mission of high principal.

  12. Kathy
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    I attended Catholic schools for 12 years. Twelve years of nuns. These boys are not Catholic and need to be expelled from school. I am just disgusted beyond belief. Such an ugly, awful incident. Is the school turning out “little Hitler’s” or their parents?

  13. Mike Bodary
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    The hatred, racism, and intolerance I see by these punks is a direct product of the way they are raised and socialized. Although it would be unfair to paint them all with this brush, I see much more of this behavior by those is heavily Trump states . Trump has allowed the dregs of society to come out of the shadows. Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell”s reelections attest to the electorate.

  14. Andrea
    Posted January 19, 2019 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    If you know Nathan at all, you know he was not the aggressor. Even if you are determined to blame him for this. The school knows who is too blame and will be dealing with the students on Monday. I am so sick of white privilege, there are so many videos of what happened, actual video. and you post some guy in a room talking. Sorry I believe my eyes. YPSILANTI STANDS WITH NATHAN PHILLIPS

    http://ccky.org/2019/01/statement-on-the-actions-of-covington-catholic-high-school-students/?fbclid=IwAR2TCv8eSPegrAQZJCgC7m6JGxF_LcSCNkO20ShcdiRlFsfjiW6eKwo03JA

  15. anonymous
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:08 am | Permalink

    here’s a great story someone posted today about nathan, a dozen horses and a backyard in ypsi a few years ago

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/ahrjms/i_lived_next_to_the_native_american_vietnam/?st=JR4FQRPE&sh=ee8299be

  16. Pat
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Kids like this are created, not born. People who exert power over others have likely had it taken from them. It’s no surprise that these boys attend an institution that condones and protects child molesters. What a fucking evil place.

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-te.church04jun04-story.html

  17. A
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 3:08 am | Permalink

    These little Kentucky fucks were being provocative, and everyone can see it. There’s no excuse for their disrespect.

  18. Sad
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    I wonder how these children will be observing MLK day?

  19. Anonymous
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    Relevant:
    https://twitter.com/wcpo/status/1072654046245343233?s=21

  20. iRobert
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    I don’t see any females among the group of busses-in Catholic teens. I do see one black teen among them.

    I was happy to see Lloyd Christmas (Jim Carey’s character from Dumb & Dumber) in the crowd of Catholic teens. This could be a scene from “Hundreds of Dumb & Dozens of Dumber.”

  21. Sad
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Where were the chaperones? You know there had to be chaperones?

  22. iRobert
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    This is a Catholic group, Sad. The Chaperones are probably alone with one of the boys back on the bus.

  23. Bob
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Even HW and the usual Alex Jones ball-cuppers go silent on this one. The indefensible has reached it’s tipping point.

  24. anonymous
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    someone posted this really great story about nathan yesterday. it involves a caravan of traveling native americans, horses and a backyard in ypsi

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ChapoTrapHouse/comments/ahrjms/i_lived_next_to_the_native_american_vietnam/?st=JR52OLPS&sh=b1de500b

  25. Patti Smith
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Like Elsie, I also try to stay upbeat (or at least witty). But nope not today, Fam. I’m (obvs) a teacher so one of my first thoughts was, “What on earth are these kids like in class?!” They didn’t just roll into DC and start saying that stuff. Why aren’t the teachers saying something?

    And then I remembered that when I worked in western Wayne County, there were kids who wore Confederate flag belt buckles, had them on their vehicles, had them as their user pics, and no one in authority did anything. It’s everywhere.

  26. TeacherPatti
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Oops, my user name should have been “TeacherPatti” which is why I said “obvs”.

  27. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Huh!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKXY9QvgnBY

  28. Sherry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    My husband is Sioux. You set this up. You are a self promoter. You should be ashamed inciting teenagers. I was married to a Vietnam vet, shame on you,

  29. iRobert
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    I’ll be interested to see what Mark has to say about the video you shared, HW. I’m guessing Jean will have some pretty convoluted comments regarding the black guys in the video calling the black teens in the Catholic group’s by racist epitaphs, and complaining that homosexuals are permitted basic rights, using offensive language for them as well. Let’s hear it Jean. This should be good.

  30. Jean Henry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    iRobert– I understand that Black people are not a monolith. In fact, I’ve acknowledged considerable social conservativism among people of color and stated that it’s remarkable that the GOP can’t attract and retain more of them given that. (Why? I think because the GOP fails to serve them in any other way). I speak for myself; no one else. I see no reason to try to explain anyone’s behavior because of their race or any other demographic. You don’t understand my positions at all. Your view of my perspective is very reductive. This will surprise no one.

  31. Jean Henry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Speaking of allowing people to speak for themselves– Here is Nathan’s response to the harassment: https://twitter.com/splinter_news/status/1086764784706560001

  32. Jean Henry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    Please note that the Black activists were not harassing Mr. Phillips after he inserted himself between them.

    I’m still unclear on why Robert finds it shocking when Black people use the N-Word and doesn’t seem to understand that it’s differently received when a Black person uses the term than when I non-Black person does. We’ve been around the block on this. iRobert’s position is regularly if perhaps unintentionally to deny structural inequity that is not economic, that is more than economic.

    For the record, I’m very opposed to censorship of any kind of speech. I think offensive speech creates the opportunity for important conversations. Some of those conversations will entail what is offensive speech and what is not. That still doesn’t mean I want to limit speech via censorship. I want to limit hate speech via social change.

  33. iRobert
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    No outrage, Jean? Yeah, you’re positions are real sophisticated. You obviously don’t know how I perceive you. I’ll try being more direct. You’re building strawmen in order to make yourself the apparent “good guy” in contrast. The problem is that you have to pile a lot of rottenness on other people to make them appear more rotten than you. You are looking for scapegoats just as every other miserable bigot is.

  34. iRobert
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    When a black person uses language that is meant to degrade another black person, it is still degrading. Degrading people based on race is wrong in any proportion and regardless of degree or intent.

  35. iRobert
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Among urban gangs, the “N” word is used to remind members and non-members alike that they should not get the thought that they have value as individuals and have within them the power to make more of themselves. By excusing such language, you are approving the perpetuation of this oppression. You do it because you don’t want to hold anyone to a standard you don’t feel you could rise to yourself. That’s no excuse. Just because you have resigned yourself to such a low standard is no excuse for covering the bad behavior of others.

  36. iRobert
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    The conduct of the group in the video using disgusting and degrading epitaphs is the most offensive thing in the video. There is no question about that.

    The stupid Catholic high school brats were not as out of control as they could likely get.

    Mr. Phillips was a little provocative, but his tactic also seems to have been pretty successful. I think what he did defused the tension between the Catholic brats and the bigoted assholes using the epitaphs. He may have headed off some violence.

  37. Sad
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    A song for you HW.

    https://youtu.be/BGpzGu9Yp6Y

    With Mr. Phillips.

  38. Bob
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Where can I donate to Mr Phillips or the Ypsilanti? Or the causes he supports and champions? Let’s make this about what he does to improve the world. (I’ll save my choice words for a call to the school admin).

    Obvs. This is disgusting and teens were sh*ts. They are supposed to support “life” this includes those outside the womb. Duh. Not to mention Mr Phillips is the native in the country.

    Fortunately, I support Mr. Phillips and those like him. I share his tears and find strength in his way. He needs press. The native community needs press. If you are outraged donate to their causes and give hope to the native youth who need support. Money talks.

  39. Bob
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    Where can I donate to Mr Phillips or the Ypsilanti? Or the causes he supports and champions? Let’s make this about what he does to improve the world

    I support Mr. Phillips and those like him. I share his tears and find strength in his way. He needs press. The native community needs press. If you are outraged donate to their causes and give hope to the native youth who need support. Money talks.

  40. Responding to Sherry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    From “The Independent”:

    “The 64-year-old can be seen interposing himself between the two groups, ending a few yards away from both, before the students approach him and begin chanting.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/maga-hat-donald-trump-native-american-covington-catholic-nathan-phillips-black-muslims-a8737186.html

  41. Gisela Deal
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    America is sliding deeper into a very dark hole. My heart goes out to the brave veteran I feel nothing but sadness for all,nobody should be treated this way but on a daily basis people have to endure pain like this,personally I would love to slap that kid blocking the way for Nathan. He is famous now the kid for all the wrong reasons and I hope it will follow him for the rest of his life

  42. Jim Daley
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 3:56 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Phillips deserves tremendous respect for his poise.
    A class man that showed tremendous dignity.
    These Covington High School students should have been thanking Mr. Phillips for his military service. Their behaviour was disgusting.
    Mr. Phillips, you are a hero to most people. Thank You.

  43. In Solidarity
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    I hope all of Ypsi shows we’re with Mr Phillips!

    https://bit.ly/2R2jen8

  44. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Entire event. Nathan lied. They did not chant build the wall. They did drown out the hate the black israelites were directing at them and everyone. Nathan went up and banged his drum right in the kid’s face. For him to say they were about to “spring on him” if he made a wrong move is ridiculous.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQyBHTTqb38

  45. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    This is just my take but they seem like nice 15 and 16 year old kids who are captured on film being confronted by several different mentally ill adults. The kids various reactions seemed typical and even praiseworthy at certain points. Which part do you guys object to exactly? I don’t get it.

  46. Maria Huffman
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    so Ff is gonna get in trouble for that last. post. Moral of the story, do not stand so close to people who are making music or signing.

  47. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    It seems like if you are going to write (or repeat) a story that functions to demonize a child that you would want to make sure you have the story straight. I am not at all convinced Mark double checked anything here.

  48. Sad
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    You’re truly despicable and repulsive FF.

    I hope in the next few days when the institutions these children are associated with respond to this incident you continue your defense of their praiseworthy behavior.

    From Charlottesville, to Squirrel Hill , to this nothing seems to trouble you. What would it take for you to find something unsettling?

  49. Sad
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Even if for one second we inhabited your bizarro world and said that these individuals were mentally ill would the proper response be to ridicule and torment them?

  50. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Squirrel Hill was very emotional for me and still is. What are you talking about?

    What bothers you here? If I buy into the narrative I find it unsettling. I don’t buy the narrative.

    It looks like Phillips inserted himself into the group. The boys did not surround him. I did not see the boy step in Phillips way. I saw Phillips walk right up to the boy and bang a drum within inches of the boy who was just standing there. The boys are not allowed to dance and smile when Phillips inserted himself into their group? I really don’t get it…. Seriously would like to know what you think.

  51. Jean Henry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:49 pm | Permalink

    FF– My favorite part is the way FF positions himself as an advocate for the unfairly treated– almost uniformly white men behaving very badly.

  52. Sad
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    I’m not going to waste my time with your petulant bullshit FF.

    I’ll be interested to see how the institutions these children are associated with respond. Maybe they’ll agree with you? Just boys having fun.

    You must have been really upset about that razor commercial.

    Have a good MLK day.

  53. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Tormenting him how? By smiling and dancing? Some other way? Did they say something mean? Phillips said they were chanting “build the wall”. I did not hear that chant did you?

  54. Jean Henry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

    iRobert– Use of the ‘n word’ among Black Americans is not exclusive to ‘urban gangs.’ It’s almost universal among young people and has many tones and colors. It’s not our business to police the language they use internally. I may call another woman a ‘bitch’ with a similar array of colors and meanings. If you do so, however, it will play differently.

    You really need to expand your thinking on these issues. This blog is not the ideal place to do so. I suggest you start reading/ listening to the vast array of positions expressed by POC themselves on this issue. There are at least 30 years of discourse on this topic. Your voice is not needed. And mine shouldn’t be either.

  55. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    It must have been a pretty weird experience for the boy to have a senior citizen walk up to him and bang a drum within inches of his face for several minutes. How often does that occur? What was the motivation behind Phillips act?

  56. Fuck
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Tell this cocky piece of shit mother fucker from Kentucky I REALLY look forward to our civilized conversation!!!!

  57. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    It is ok Sad. I am not sure I have time for this either….

  58. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    “Just boys having fun.”

    I would not characterize it as “boys having fun”. It looks more like a group of youths reacting to different kinds of confrontation by various sorts of mentally ill adult people. That is my impression…..

  59. Jean Henry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Those All Male Catholic School kids guffawing and mocking made me think of Bret Kavanaugh’s youthful exploits with Mark, Kip, Bart etc. I’m sure they have bright futures. Our culture rewards assholery and fuckery in white males.

  60. Jean Henry
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    FF’s ‘impression’ is reliably that White Christian males are the victims.

  61. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 8:45 pm | Permalink

    Yes, let the hatred flow through you. It makes you strong.

  62. Enter the Sandmann
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Nick Sandmann, the high school junior appears to be smirking in front of Mr. Phillips issued a statement through a public relations firm, which is how rich white kids do things.

    From the New York Times:

    In Mr. Sandmann’s statement, which was released by a public relations firm, he said he remained “motionless and calm” in an effort to defuse the situation.

    “I realized everyone had cameras and that perhaps a group of adults was trying to provoke a group of teenagers into a larger conflict,” he said.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/20/us/nathan-phillips-covington.html

  63. Amber
    Posted January 20, 2019 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    To everyone who watched the initial video that was highly edited, please do your own digging. The article below records what happened and has almost 2 hours of video to back it up. There was a third group (Black Hebrew Israelites) that was recording the whole time (they were very disrespectful, yelled curses, and insults the majority of the time. They did it all in the name of God too).
    Some timestamps of when things were said/happening:
    45-47 – they were yelling slurs such as “faggot” and I lost count of the number of times they yelled “child molesting faggots” through out the video.
    1:06 – Threatening an innocent bystander with violence.
    1:07:30 – “y’all incest babies” (which was repeated numerous times)
    1:12 – Nathan Phillips appears
    1:15-16 – The BHI group told the boys to make sure they go shoot up a school before they went to use the bathrooms. “this a bunch of future school shooters”
    The boys asked their teacher and supervisors if they could do some school chats to drown out the negativity that was being thrown at them. Personally, I think they handling the situation very well since they were being provoked so vigorously. Shortly after, Nathan Phillips and his crew approached the group. The boys commented and said they were confused so they joined in with Phillips’ chants and clapped to the drums.
    Please do your own research before joining in with everyone else. These boys are receiving death threats and their families are too, because of how the media has pushed an agenda against these boys.
    Again, please do your research guys! Its so important in this day when information is so easily skewed.
    The article – https://reason.com/blog/2019/01/20/covington-catholic-nathan-phillips-video?fbclid=IwAR2mh3mcM26gTzyLkWG5iOPl5WuFXge3RKRgvukT_CU6F-jBztI8zGy8V2A
    The video footage(uncut) – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3EC1_gcr34&feature=youtu.be

  64. Indiginous One
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Stop lying you scumbag.

  65. Anonymous
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    A good take worth checking out.

    https://twitter.com/hoarsewisperer/status/1087164450577309696?s=21

  66. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Of course the catholic school boys reminded you of some other situation involving catholic school boys, Jean. Because you are a highly bigoted person, who has more bias than most.

  67. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    I don’t find it the least damning that Sandmann’s parents hired a public relations firm. Media is destroying the kids reputation with little evidence. Mark helped do this. Mark should feel ashamed of himself. The people on MM.com who like to jump to conclusions about an event involving children, because the event seems to fit their politically driven narrative, without regard for the children, should all feel ashamed of themselves.

  68. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    FWIW, FF, I agree that similar incidents are too often used to further inflame divisions. On the other hand, this was a public square and represented the intersection of multiple public protests in which lots of media attention was expected and desired. It’s not like this happened at a. bus stop. We have well established here that multiple people can look at the same video(s) and come to different interpretations. We agree at least that these interpretations say more about the viewer than the incident itself. I’ll stand by my interpretation.

  69. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    JH: “iRobert– Use of the ‘n word’ among Black Americans is not exclusive to ‘urban gangs.’”

    No shit, Sherlock. This sentence from you is just another standard Jean Henry straw man. You seem incapable of sticking to what’s actually been said.

    JH: “It’s almost universal among young people and has many tones and colors.”

    This sort of language and the behavior associated with it may be almost universal among you and the people who would associate with you, but it is not so common among people who have any sense, class, self-respect or respect for others. Don’t project your trashy standards onto an entire generation. Outside your environment, the statement simply isn’t true.

    JH: “It’s not our business to police the language they use internally.”

    Nobody is “policing” anything, you idiot. I am calling you and others like you out for what you are and for the sick things you promote. Nobody is enforcing anything. When a person simply speaks honestly about what they’re observing, calling it “policing” is moronic and insane. Not only do I have no “policing” ability or intent, I fully accept that you and other trushy lowlives like yourself are fully committed to staying in the muck, and pulling as many others in with you. I don’t see you as having much, if any hope of thinking any of it through and elevating yourself and the people around you. You will continue to encourage others to have very low standards for themselves. It’s the only way you can feel comfortable about your own low standards.

    JH: “I may call another woman a ‘bitch’ with a similar array of colors and meanings.”

    I am certain most women you talk like this around, who possess any sense of dignity, decency, and self-worth, cringe when you use the term, avoid you as a result, conclude you are hopeless, or confronts you in some manner. I’m sure your trashy, debased, friends (if in fact you truely have any) who share in this low-grade conduct also suffer personally as you do, and aren’t bright enough to make the connection.

    JH: “If you do so, however, it will play differently.”

    I have never in my life felt like using language that degraded women. Its obvious why you do. However, the reason you included this sentence in your chicken-shit comment is because you want to pretend there is a chance I would ever be as low as you, and then pretend to make threat in that imaginary scenario. It’s a pathetic tactic.

    JH: “You really need to expand your thinking on these issues.”

    Here’s where you try to pretend you have some sort of superior knowledge without actually having shown anything to suggest it. You do this a lot and I see right through it. You speak like a Johnny-come-lately to issues which most people have been thinking about for many decades by the time they reach your age. Intellectually, you are an infant, Jean. You have a lot of catching up to do, and talking down to people doesn’t help you.

    JH: “This blog is not the ideal place to do so.”

    What this blog IS good for is calling out a phony for what they are. I’m calling you out, Jean. What you do is destructive. It is disempowering to the people you pretend to champion. You’re a complete fraud. I think you know it somewhere down deep inside that very chaotic and confused consciousness of yours.

    JH: “I suggest you start reading/ listening to the vast array of positions expressed by POC themselves on this issue.”

    I suggest you stop pretending and stop trying to make yourself feel better by talking down to people. You’re eventually going to get straightened out hard by a person in your personal life who is sick of your bullshit.

    JH: “There are at least 30 years of discourse on this topic. Your voice is not needed. And mine shouldn’t be either.”

    Your voice is not only unneeded, it is a detriment to any cause you pretend to champion, as we have all seen again and again. You need to straighten yourself out Jean, and stop being that detriment to everyone around you.

  70. Kim
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Meanwhile, Pence is saying that Donald Trump is exactly like MLK.

    https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1087115690069446656?s=21

  71. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Amber: (paraphrase) Make sure you do your own research before coming to a conclusion about the boys.

    Indigenous one: Stop lying you scumbag.

  72. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Mark updated this story above with more info.

    The updated info seems sourced in either mental illness or lies. Maybe both.

    I am just conveying my impressions…

  73. LLT
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    Can someone please confirm this story about students at Covington Catholic wearing blackface at a basketball game?

    https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/status/1087351425271619585

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Fuckthealtright/comments/ai86tb/surrounded_and_mocked_covington_catholic_high/

  74. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    iRobert–
    “In his 1967 book “Where Do We Go From Here,” Dr. King noted the limits of Northern liberalism: “Negroes have proceeded from a premise that equality means what it says.” “But most whites in America, including many of good will,” he wrote “proceed from a premise that equality is a loose expression for improvement. White America is not even psychologically organized to close the gap.””

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/20/opinion/martin-luther-king-new-york.html

  75. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    iRobert– you seem to feel extremely provoked by my comments which are far from outside the norm of discourse about these issues. These ideas are not my own. You may want to examine your reactivity. You seem extraordinarily hostile to some fundamental ideas of social justice. They represent no real threat to unity among the working class or to the cause of economic equity. They bookend those goals. I believe the latter two cannot be achieved without significant movement on social justice issues. And I don’t believe we can see movement on social justice without centering these concerns in political discourse.

    Believing movement towards intersectional social justice (‘identity politics’) divides the left is what divides the left. I divides the left because it insulates white Chrsitian America (left or not) from critique and accountability.

    PS I think you give entirely too much weight to my destructive power. Clearly, this is not about me but your own aversion to certain perspectives on the left.

    PPS It’s impossible to talk about social justice or any difficult (but necessary) conversation about human or social failing without being called self-righteous or condescending. I’m ok with being called condescending about social justice. Uppity, bitchy whatever are implied, even when you don’t use the words. None of those words (or their polite equivalent) applied to me in this context provoke any response but pride.

  76. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    @ Everybody:

    It’s ok to admit that everybody involved in this incident acted somewhat provocatively. By far the worst actors in this scenario were the group of bigots using a homophobic slur and racial degrading language.

    The bussed-in Covington teens were somewhat poorly behaved to varying degrees, but also did not make any physical contact with anybody that I could see. That is a good thing and is an important detail to note.

    Mr. Phillips seemed to step in provocatively as a way of drawing on to himself the building tension between the two groups. It appears to have worked in averting any escalation between the bigots and the teens. For that Mr. Phillips should be acknowledged.

    Mark dug hinself in a bit of a hole at the outset on this thread, but I think we can cut him some slack. He’s been shaken up, as many have, over the strange and uncertain times in which we are finding ourselves these day. Mark’s intentions are good. I think we’ll all concede to that. He simply got this particular one somewhat wrong. So what? Everybody who comments on this page has persisted with their own absurdities on a regular basis.

    So Mark overstated and overreacted somewhat this time. Big deal!

    I’m just sitting here grateful that none of you idiots are cops. With as often as we’ve had some judgement problems on the part of a number of police officers across the country. I can’t even begin to fathom how horribly worse that would be if we had cops as dumb, blind, and stupid as the ideologically obsessed assholes who infest this blog.

  77. EOS
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    You are disgusting. You take a short video clip and jump to erroneous conclusions and then smear entire groups. Go look at the longer clips. The group of kids were standing waiting for their bus. A group of Black Israelites start yelling obscenities at them. The kids start school cheers to drown them out. Nathan walks directly towards the group of kids and beats his drum right in the face of one of the kids. The kid did nothing but smile and stand his ground.

    A couple of the kids had MAGA hats and most were white. It’s not OK to verbally attack them or antagonize them with drum beating. And it sure wasn’t OK to post an edited video to make it look as if the kids were at fault. Shame on all of you whose knee jerk reaction was to blame the kids – because they are white males? -because they are pro-life? – because they are Catholic? – because a few may support Trump? Whatever – no one should believe the left’s bullshit.

  78. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    Nothing amuses me more than when EOS and iRobert try to shame those who disagree with them. You can only shame people who care about what you think… Very few here will offer either of you two that power.

  79. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Noted: iRobert’s acknowledgment that the cops protect his interests over others’ and that they would be less likely to do so if they were constituted differently.

  80. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    iRobert,

    I think what you said was nice enough but perhaps overly generous. I can honestly say I have no idea if Mark is going to walk some of his possibly false and damaging (to children) statements back.

    I also wonder if Sad would like to recant the comment about my take supposed take on Squirrel Hill. I pointed it out as a fake comment and Sad did not even bother to address it or recant it.

    I think we have a lot of evidence that we are dealing with people, here on mm.com, who have pretty low ethical standards. I do wonder if people will walk back their statements in a responsible way though…

  81. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    Jean, it’s clear you suffered some sort of trauma a few years back and suffered some sort of mental breakdown. It happens, and you shouldn’t continue to externalize your attempts to cope.

    You don’t represent or serve as any sort of spokesperson for any coherent views on racial issues. Your behavior is destructive toward you primarily, because you are most certainly driving all decent people away. I’m certain your children will confront you about your behavior at moments, and my advice is that you try not to respond in you usual impulsive fashion. It would be beneficial to you to listen to the people around you, especially the ones who have been distancing themselves from you as of late.

    You don’t represent any great threat as an individual, but your degenerative condition is not uncommon, and it IS a problem socially. Like I say, as an individual you are a detriment to the causes you take up. You need to focus on yourself and how you cope with the adversity in your life.

    You’ve turned to bigotry for the same reasons all bigots do, personal issues. You seek scapegoats for the same reason any bigots does. You’re having difficulty facing yourself and your own responsibility in your adversity.

    You should take up meditation and stop acting out, pretending in your language to have some sort of grasp on issues you don’t, and trying to hint that you’re some sort of wise person who champions on behalf of anyone or any cause. You’re just damaging those causes with everyone with which you express this convoluted nonsense of yours.

    Look closely at your relationships. You will find that the people around you are for the most part just tolerating your nonsense. They don’t endorse it. They’re hoping you’ll smooth out a bit in time. You should do it as soon as possible for them.

  82. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Fine EOS. I’m sure the institutions these children are associated with will clearly endorse their behavior. We’re you particularly impressed with the young man who took off his shirt and threw it into the crowd? They were acting like buffoons and as Mr. Philips stated the adults should have been supervising. Or was this your idea of proper behavior for a group of young Christian males at a national monument?

    I hope my children never feel entitled to put the responsibility for their behavior on someone else, be it Hebrew Isrealites or Alt-Right activist or Antifa.

  83. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Fine FF. I apologize. You think race based hatred is fine right up to the point of mass murder. My mistake.

    Carry on with your witty repartee. It’s what we all need now.

    You’re so impressive.

  84. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Let me be the first, FF.

    I initially just saw the video Mark posted and just felt he was getting a little to wound up over some stupid teens who apparently ate placed unsupervised into challenging and potentially violent situations.

    I don’t like the behavior of the most prominent teens in the videos. But since seeing the totally offensive provocations of the bigots, I kinda feel relieved that the teens didn’t escalate along with those homophobic morons.

    I do believe Mr. Phillips was being provocative toward the teens, which taken out of context is certainly questionable behavior. But considering that his provacative conduct essentially drew the teens attention away from the bigots, I can’t help but guess it was at least some part of what motivated Phillips.

    Those teens were poorly behaved though. You and EOS should admit that a bunch of frat-boy acting teens should not be bussed I to potentially confrontational circumstances and then left without any guidance from a thoughtful adult. Can you two at least admit to that.

    Can you also agree that Jean needs to focus on what she is doing to her family and to the people who still tolerate her? I’m trying to get her to look at what she’s doing.

  85. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    That is a horrible response, Sad.

    You made a false claim about my take on Squirrel Hill. Your apology for making shit up is to accuse of otherwise liking race based hate crime?

    Horrible. You should be ashamed of yourself.

  86. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    I think it can be said that none of the commenters here are terribly good at openly examining their own premature or dugin positions. This blog just isn’t the sort of place that attracts people who are good at that. That’s why today I’m so grateful that none of you are police officers. (For Jeans sake, I have to make it clear here that I’m talking about EOS and Ff just as much as I’m talking about Sad, Mark and the others.) Still, I believe at least you four, EOS, FF, Mark and Sad at moments have showed some indications that you might be capable of change. I still hold out hope.

    JH, on the other hand, needs to try to recenter hinself before everybody in his life abandones him.

  87. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    For the record, Jean, I have a few friends that show some of the same post-traumatic stress syndrome symptoms that you do. The ones that have fared the best ultimately have been those who got into some meditation, took up some relaxing hobbies, and got away from things like politics and such. They’ve seemed to come back from their destructive tendencies, but not before losing a number of friends and alienating some important loved ones.

  88. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    You’re so sensitive FF.

    Sorry, unlike you I’m usually busy with other things and can’t keep close notes of everyone who comments on MM.coms views on each topic and who thought what happened at which minute mark in the video.

    For the sake of clarity let’s stick to this issue. You come on here and describe these children’s behavior as praise-worthy. I think nothing could be farther from the truth. We disagree.

    As I said, I’ll be curious to see what the adults responsible for them being on the trip thought. The way things are going you could be right, maybe this is acceptable behavior. If the school and church come out praising their charges I’ll gladly apologize.

    And I would like to thank Mark Maynard for this blog and putting up with all this crap. It’s a great service to our community which contributes something to think about and even gives the peanut gallery a platform. You should at least occasionally express a little gratitude. It if it wasn’t for him how would we know how enlightened you all are?

  89. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    The hate preachers denounced native culture all day. That’s what they were there for. The kids handled it about as well as possible when they became a big fat stationary random target. I don’t think Nathan’s intent was altruistic. If that was the case he wouldn’t lie about the circumstances. There was no chanting for the wall and he is the one who invaded the kid’s space. They cheered him when he first came up and sang and danced along with him until they became completely baffled by his behavior.

  90. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Jean, it’s difficult for me not to just be disgusted by you and go back and forth with you on this nonsense you’ve developed. But I remember that was also the challenge with the friends of mine who developed PTSD. It’s more difficult putting up with you because I don’t know you. It was tough sticking with friends who struggled with it. I reminded myself of the friend they once were, and that allowed me to resist the urge to just distance myself from them. I have since had to rely on some friends to see past my own trauma-related residual stress. It’s something to think about.

  91. EOS
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    The chaperones were with the group of boys and did give their permission for the boys to start their cheers as a way of diffusing the tension caused by the unfounded racial attacks. I think the young teens acted responsibly – they did not respond in kind. What did they do that you find offensive? Clapping with the drummer who inserted himself in their midst? Smiling at the absurdity of the situation?

  92. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Listen to Nathan’s buddy telling people to go back to Europe. There is no need for that. Be offended about a hat representing the idea of a border wall all you want but don’t tell a fellow American to go back where they came from. Hey I wish the people who came here centuries ago had lived in peace with Natives and lived more like them. Unfortunately here we are today dealing with the consequences of history. Let’s not try to set each other up with phony hate, let alone actually be hateful now.

  93. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    We can all be glad that the situation didn’t escalate to violence. I think that says something good about everybody there in some sense. I think Americans can disagree vehemently and still remember we are ultimately all in this together. We don’t want chaos, and we don’t want our disagreements to descend into mindless violence. The rest of you may want to be right and see others admit they are wrong, but I think it’s worth noting that no tragedy occurred here. We have had so many tragedies in recent years, I can’t help but hope it means something. Maybe Americans are starting on some level to remember we need to work our differences out, non-violently.

  94. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    I wouldn’t say the hate preachers are merely voicing disagreement. They are verbally assaulting people based on genetics and religion. Good stuff overall on this topic, iRobert.

  95. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 1:10 pm | Permalink

    I agree with you, HW, that the hate preachers are not merely voicing disagreement. I’m as disgusted by them as you are, and pretty disgusted that many here will not acknowledge the same. Calling homosexuals “fa**ots” and some teens the “N” word is as you say, verbal assault. Usually, when someone behaves like that, Mark and others here will go absolutely ballistic accusing everyone of being on board with that shit. Now they’re giving the impression that they themselves are onboard with it. It’s beyond disgusting really. I’m still holding out hope that Mark and Sad may come back with some decency and honesty eventually.

    We should be about principles, not blind idiology. That’s how we can best serve our nation as citizens.

  96. Paul
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/21/us/maga-hat-teens-native-american-second-video/index.html

    CNN shows a different story today…

  97. Lynne
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Thanks FF for showing us one of the things that is really wrong with America these days. You make excuses for terrible behavior as long as it is white men engaging in it and frankly that emboldens them. That is really horrible! I just hope that these boys face real consequences for their actions because I hope they are redeemable. I hope there are more decent poeple in their community than people like FF but I don’t hold out high hopes for that. People are already saying that the boys are the real victims with is of course bullshit to anyone who doesn’t have a huge bias towards white supremacy.

  98. Lynne
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Oh good now I see iRobert and HW are also clutching their pearls that some minorities have found a voice and are using it to challenge white supremacy. This is why it is time as a nation for us to stop giving weight to white male voices. It isn’t denying anyone their freedom of speech to stop listening to their bullshit.

  99. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

    “some minorities have found a voice and are using it to challenge white supremacy.”

    If that’s what you want to call it go ahead. This distortion you apply is not sustainable though. I call it what it is: hate. How would you feel if they shouted at you that you will be their slave when the messiah comes? In what universe is that in any way similar to how you describe their behavior?

  100. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    iRobert– You just engaged in 4 comment long conversation about me with yourself. I don’t think it’s my reactivity and mental health (or righteousness or condescension or racism) that you need to worry about. Good luck out there.

  101. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Of all perspectives represented among commenters here, those primarily concerned with issues of social justice are lowest on iRobert’s list of saveable people. That’s an indication of his greatest fears– not Christian fundamentalism or right wing martial law fantasists or party apologists and moralists, but those who want to have a conversation about racism and sexism in our culture and systems; Those who simply point up white male privilege.

    Of course, he’s the only one other than HW or EOS who actually thinks he’s here to change people’s point of view or enlighten them in some way. In other words, iRobert is the only one of us on the left proselytizing… complete with cheap moralism and externalization of blame… Who he blames most us fascinating. I don’t hate or fear those who prioritize other aspects of progressive social change; It’s just weird that I’m the one being called divisive and bigoted. It’s weird that so many on the left need to personally attack others in their ranks (v real discourse) for simply representing another perspective. oh well.

  102. EOS
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    At least you are consistent. Don’t let the facts alter your rigid bias against white males. I’m sure you think they deserved to be verbally assaulted since they were standing as a group waiting for their bus. And they had the nerve to stand there and not respond to the insults. And to top it off, they smiled. How dare they! If you were there, you could have threatened to cut them with a knife. It’s a shame everyone doesn’t think the same way you do. What a better world it would be. NOT.

  103. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    If I followed and believed the narrative I would have simply watched the Shaun King video and agreed that it was “terrible behavior” on the kids part, like you suggested.

    The problem is the narrative accompanying the video is an obvious misrepresentation of the situation. If you don’t believe me and are curious about what actually happened there are multiple videos being shared that, when watched together, give a better idea of what actually happened. You can call it “different perspectives” if you want but people were either chanting “build the wall” or they were not. The boys either walked up to Nathan and surrounded Nathan or they did not. Nathan either inserted himself into the group of boys or he did not. Sandmann either walked up to Nathan and blocked his path or he did not. Nathan either had reason to feel a threat of violence or he did not.

    I hear a lot of people talking in generalities about how horrible the boys behavior was. Ok. What should the boys have done differently? What would have been a more appropriate response to adult strangers, engaging with children, with behavior that ranged from racist and homophobic on the one hand, to very weird behavior that involved an adult man invading a child’s personal space, while beating on a drum with a stick, on the other hand?

    What should the boys have done differently? Less smiling? Less dancing? Less standing in one spot? Less red hats? Less being white?

  104. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    Here’s a thought.

    Maybe just move back fifty feet and ignore the heckling?

  105. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    It’s so sad how white Christian males are treated in this society. The bias against them is clearly what we need to worry about on MLK jr day, right? The continued victimization of white males must stop…

  106. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    Yeah Sad. They should have retreated the second they were called “nigger” “faggots” “children of incest”. We should, from now on, just encourage the next generation of youth to simply ignore racist and homophobic insults from adult strangers by encouraging them to retreat back 50 feet.

    MLK would be so proud of that sentiment, Sad.

    I’m sure you are super-progressive person on the cusp of making the world a better place.

  107. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I feel like it safe to say that FF, HW, EOS, and iRobert are against expressions of bigotry regardless of the race, gender, religion, and politics of the intended target of that bigotry. a

    We engage with you because you are a good example of a bigot and we believe that pointing out the stupidity of your bigotry, might help to someday, indirectly, make the world a little bit better place to live.

    It really is that simple.

    (Sorry for including you in the clan of “deplorable” types iRobert.)

  108. Lynne
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    I have watched those longer videos. I do not understand how the presence of a group of African American men heckling them justifies their obvious disrespectful treatment of Nathan Phillips. They were chanting “build the wall”. They were making “tomohawk” motions. That is unacceptable. Period. There is NO excuse for their behavior. There is also no excuse for pretending otherwise.

    This does show us why that stupid Gillette ad contained an important message and why it triggered so many. Apparently guys here too need to be reminded not to be jerks. Don’t be a jerk and don’t excuse the shitty behavior of men and boys.

  109. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Those of us that aren’t cisgendered white men have traditionally had to retreat from such heckling as a response could typically result in a beating,an assault or worse.
    I understand that you have probably always had the privilege of being able to “stand your ground”.

    I think Dr.King and his mentor Gandhi were more of the school to turn the other cheek rather than escalate the situation. But what do I know. You’re obviously smarter than me.

  110. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Can you share the video and the timestamp that shows the boys chanting “build the wall”?

    I need to go but I would like to watch it tomorrow if you can provide the link.

    I did see the boys doing the tomahawk motions. The boys “performance” was an obvious prep rally or sporting event type performance that they must know and do at school sporting events. I do agree that the tomahawk thing along with the native american type war chant thing is perhaps offensive to many and should be addressed but it extremely common, has not been addressed and they are children born into a world that is a work in progress so I give them a little more leeway than adult bigots and adults who ignore a child’s personal space….

    Is there anything else egregious that the children did?

    What about the adults?

  111. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Got to go.

    What is your point Sad?

  112. Lynne
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    That little smug ass thug of a kid got right into Nathan Phillips face and prevented him from moving. I listened to it again and I guess what they are chanting isn’t so clear but they are wearing MAGA hats so it isn’t completely strange to assume that they were chanting “build the wall” and from interviews with Phillips, that is what he heard. Those videos don’t have the best sound. What is VERY clear though is that those boys were mocking him and felt confident about it too. It is not at all acceptable even if it is extremely common for white kids to disrespect native culture in that way. So fucking what. That larger cultural acceptance of this kind of behavior is the larger problem to be sure but that doesn’t in any way excuse those boys.

    Let’s also remember that those boys were in DC to march against women’s rights so there is that too. They are not good kids. They need to face some consequences and the sad thing is that internet outrage might be still the only way POC can get justice in situations like this.

  113. Pete
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

    That stupid Indian should have never walked into the group of those kids and banged his drum in the face of one of the young men as they were singing their school song to drown out the assholes that were calling them racists names….

    Its bullshit that Nathan had to then speak with a forked tongue on what transpired and the ones that were yelling out the racial slurs against the Indians and whites are the ones that are not being called what they are… homophobe racist… but there were white guys at the mall… I guess then they’re the racist no matter what.

    This is a rally cry for me now…. FUCK NATHAN PHILLIPS…. And the Black asshole racist he protected.

  114. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    Can you provide the video and time stamp that shows “the little thug ass of a kid [getting] right into Nathan Phillips face and preventing him from moving”?

  115. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    I believe him.

    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-news-nathan-phillips-kentucky-covington-indigenous-march-staredown-20190121-story.html

  116. Lynne
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    FF, every video shows that. Seriously EVERY. SINGLE. ONE! The short one. The long one. The one shot by the black activists. The one shot by someone else. Ok, I may not have seen every possible video taken but I have seen four and they all show that this kid is in Nathan Phillips face wearing a MAGA hat with a shitty smug expression on his face and the posture of a white boy who is adopting a stance of superiority. They all show those boys mocking the Native Americans too. Oh and I missed some of their bad behavior in the long one but this thread points it out

    https://wokesloth.com/viral-thread-unedited-video-protest-confrontation-worse/jessi/?utm_content=buffer3d0d8&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=thegoodlordabove&utm_campaign=bloomjoy&fbclid=IwAR1B1fnRuMZRH94CxxjmNWwrQx98I_rsS2iwSAq2vqtoW7ObR5PINI9u7XQ

  117. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, I think HW and I have both expressed our support of minirities finding their voice, as you put it. However, we believe calling people “faggots” and the “N” word is absolutely offensive and unacceptable. If you think calling people “faggots” is an example of minorities finding their voice, you are as insane as Jean.

    FF, I don’t mind at all being grouped in with you, EOS, and HW on this issue of opposing ALL bigoted language, and I find it very disappointing that Sad and Mark don’t condemn it. Their silence on this is a bit disturbing. Jean and Lynne actually endorse the use of bigoted language in these circumstances, even bizarrely suggesting it’s a way of “challenging white supremacy.” Let me say that again. Lynne believes calling a person a “faggot” is an example of “challenging white supremacy.” That’s just incredible.

  118. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    What you are saying iRobert is that you are ok with prescribing for the oppressed how they should use the language weaponized against them. I’m not comfortable with doing that. Nope, not at all. I’d rather understand why they so often use that language in self-reference. I don’t think that makes me a bigot.

  119. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Jean, my suggestion that you show some of the symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome wasn’t meant as a put down. I was quite serious, and the suggestion is not an insult.

  120. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    I don’t “police” or “prescribe” anything, Jean. I simply point out that using denigrating language is destructive. It would be the same as if you pointed out that I’m a miserable asshole. I wouldn’t accuse you of “policing” me or “prescribing” that I not be a miserable asshole. I would understand that you were simply pointing it out. I generally just point out the obvious. You then usually proceed to imagine I’m prescribing some alternative.

  121. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:16 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    I am not asking you to show me every video where Sandmann can be seen “getting” into Nathan’s face. I am asking you to show me one video where It shows Sandmann stepping toward Nathan. Or even stepping into Nathan’s “path” to where Nathan is supposedly trying to go. Can you show me one video that shows Sandmann moving?

    If they all show Sandmann getting into Nathan’s face then it should be easy to share one video that shows Sandmann getting into Nathan’s face. Please do.

  122. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    The oppressed often react in self destructive fashion. It’s internalized oppression. The only way out of oppression is up, with dignity, self worth, and self respect.

  123. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

    Jean, your intense and unrelenting impulse to scapegoat is what makes you a bigot. Your endorsement and promotion of oppressive mindsets makes you a bigot.

  124. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Here you go FF. You can clearly see Mr. Philips moving through the crowd as they part way for him until he encounters Mr. Sandmann.

    Start at the 16:33 mark.

    https://youtu.be/GKZn2e9wDBs

    This is such a controversial issue that the piece about it on Electablog actually got them a troll!

  125. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    I do love in the video when Mr. Philips approaches the frenzied youth how the Black Hebrews noticed how he calms the crowd. And also even they comment on the mockery directed towards Mr. Philips. And yell to the youth not to touch him.

    I can’t understand though what they are calling him? It would be good if more of the kids shared their videos so we could hear what they are saying. I’m sure the PR firm associated with the school locked those things up as fast as they could.

  126. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    Sad:

    What’s your opinion of the guys calling people “faggots” and the “N” word?

    What’s your opinion on that, Mark?

  127. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    Despicable!

    Although I must admit I do have a soft spot for cracker.

    They’re trying to be provocative. You seem to like being provocative iRobert?

    Lenny Bruce must be laughing in heaven.

  128. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    It’s a relief to see you’re not on board with Jean and Lynne on that. Sure took you long enough, considering it is by far the most offensive stuff on those videos.

  129. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    Thanks Sad. Can you tell me exactly the time mark that shows Sandmann moving into Phillips “path”? I watched the video and did not catch that moment where Sandmann supposedly stepped up to Phillips or stepped into Phillips “path”. I could have missed it but I did not see it.

  130. iRobert
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Word is that people in the Ann Arbor community and on other Michigan blogs are calling us here “Maytards.” I find that a bit offensive, and deeply hurtful.

  131. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    It’s obvious. All the other kids move out of his way. When he stops they cut to the close up.

    Where are all those kids videos? There should be at least 50 different takes. Where are they FF? Why do we primarily have the Black Hebrews and the Native Americans recordings? Puzzling isn’t it?

    I can’t believe Trump hasn’t come out to defend these poor innocent children’s honor.

  132. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    Can you imagine if it was 4 men from Westboro Baptist arguing with 100 Black kids with Nation of Islam caps that were acting like that and a white vet playing his bagpipe tried to intercede?

  133. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    It is not obvious to me at all. What is Sandmann doing the moments prior to Phillips stopping. If so many people are saying Sandmann got into Phillips face or moved into his path then there should at least some video upon which they are basing that claim. Where is the video showing Sandmann moving toward Phillips or into Phillips supposed “path”? I am not saying it does not exist. I am saying I watched several videos specifically looking for that moment and I can’t find that moment.

  134. Anonymous
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Here’s yet another angel that makes the behavior of these young men look even more repugnant.

    https://twitter.com/_waleedshahid/status/1087394069419122689

  135. Righteous Warrior
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    Nathan is a liar and fuck you for posting this libelous crap, I hope the school and kids sue you into bankruptcy and you lose everything you have, fucking creep.

  136. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    FF the PR firmed seized it.

    First things those kids did was turn in their phones. They’re not going to let that shit get out. Just look at that clip anonymous shared. The more info the more damage.

    He was clearly moving through the crowd, they were getting out of his way. Sandmann stopped him. Read his account in the article I shared earlier.

  137. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    You’ll like this FF. They are your people.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covington-catholic-black-paint/

  138. Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Trump has now weighed in.

  139. Lynne
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    iRobert, it probably doesn’t matter to you as you don’t seem too concerned with reality, but I will note that I have not expressed an opinion about the use of terms like “faggot” or the use of the N word by black men at that event. I do not think it is relevant at all to this discussion of how that kid was very disrespectful to Nathan Phillips. I am not sure why you think that is such a related topic. Are you saying that the presence of misbehaving black men at this event justifies the treatment those boys were giving to Nathan Phillips?

  140. Jean Henry
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:18 pm | Permalink

    I think Maytards is about right, honestly. It’s kind of sad how far down the shitter the level of conversation here has gone. I’m sure I’m partially responsible. Oh well.

    Ok, then Lynne goes and makes a salient point…

  141. Lynne
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    FF, I am guessing that you have never been harassed by a group of white teenaged boys? I have. It is pretty scary. They are the most dangerous demographic because they are often violent, and seemingly out to prove their superiority over others. Maybe you have to experience that fear to see the problems in those boy’s behavior on the mall the other day? I hope not because I would much rather people come more easily to see how the behavior and actions of the boys were really very harmful as is the reaction of so many to excuse them outright. Yes, I get it they are kids. I just think they should be made to reflect on their actions and maybe learn to see Native Americans like Nathan Phillips as human beings. An honest heartfelt apology would probably go a long way.

  142. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:20 pm | Permalink

    I can’t wait until Trump finds out that Michelle Obama has a cousin who is a leader in the Black Hebrew Israelites movement in Chicago.

  143. David Steele
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

    Phillips approached the boys, who were standing on the steps waiting for a bus.

    Then he beat a drum in their faces and chanted.

    Then he complained that he was the victim.

    And you believed him. You are supporting a race baiter, and you are doing so gleefully.

  144. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Here’s the firm that the family hired to help them explain what really happened.

    You can send them a check FF.

    https://www.runswitchpr.com

    I wonder who the Black Hebrews retained to help explain their side of things?

  145. Sad
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    I have to go to sleep. But I thought you’d like this poem from the Support Nicholas Sandmann Facebook page FF. You can can go like it. David Duke already gave it a thumbs up.

    Here you go.

    A precious little Catholic boy
    An angel pure and white
    Off to the nations capital
    To set are country right
    He went to take a stand against
    Abortion-loving hoes
    Only to be bullied by
    The blacks and eskimos
    Then a drummer came along
    To cast his injun spell
    But little Nicky stood his ground
    And chanted “go to hell”
    A precious little catholic boy
    An angel pure and white
    It’s time to grab the sword of Christ
    And fight the Holy Fight.
    -Anonymous

  146. Anthony
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    This whole story is BS. Mr. Phillips’s version of the story don’t correspond with video. These school kids were there as a school group. Harrassment took place but it seems like it came from the black Israelites and shortly after that, Mr Phillips beating a drum 3 inches from the right ear of a child because of his hat. The kid never appears to step left or right to block Mr Phillips way or say anything to him. A MAGA hat isn’t cause to berate a 16 year old kid.

  147. iRobert
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:48 am | Permalink

    Lynne, do you not remember posting this text?

    “Oh good now I see iRobert and HW are also clutching their pearls that some minorities have found a voice and are using it to challenge white supremacy. This is why it is time as a nation for us to stop giving weight to white male voices. It isn’t denying anyone their freedom of speech to stop listening to their bullshit.”

    I assumed you were talking about the guys who were calling people “faggots” and the “N” word. You call this finding voice?

    So, you have been “harassed by a group of white teenaged boys.” Have you ever been harrassed by anyone of any other age group, race, or gender? Was it less menacing?

    I’m not a fan of how teen boys are being raised to behave by most people in today’s Culture in America. I’m very disgusted by what I see on a regular basis from young men in Ann Arbor, most notably the UM frat-boys. I often wonder if these degenerates have mothers.

  148. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:15 am | Permalink

    Sad and Lynne,

    So, you guys can’t provide video footage of Sandmann stepping toward Nathan? You can’t show us that moment Sandmann stepped toward Nathan or stepped in Nathan’s supposed “path”? Yet you seem so sure it happened you feel comfortable accusing Sandmann of doing something he denies doing and which you apparently did not see him do. Where is the certainty coming from? Where is that moment Sandmann “gets” in Nathan’s face?

    Duped by your own bigotry and bias again?

  149. Eel
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:46 am | Permalink

    Another salient video of these boys accosting women that afternoon.

    https://twitter.com/roflinds/status/1087486166939680768?s=21

    #BrettKavanaughsInTraining

  150. Dave W
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    Nick, I know you feel like a hero. It is sad to say but this one incidence will follow you the rest of your life. You are a spoiled privileged white male. Nathan should have received your respect as a native American veteran. You, on the other hand, have offered nothing to this country but spreading more hate and bigotry. Your school and the chaperones need to stand up and apologize for the school’s childish actions. Isn’t Kentucky the same state where a city clerk refused to marry a same sex couple. The Pope must be so embarrassed about the actions of the school and the students.

  151. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    In an interview Nathan claimed that he also heard the coventry boys saying “go back to the reservation”.

    Did anybody else hear that when watching any of the videos?

    Kind of a weird coincidence that Nathan is claiming that the same phrase used by his interaction with young EMU students a few year ago was repeated several years later by a group of different boys, no?

    If someone heard that phrase uttered then please provide the video and time marker.

  152. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Maybe the Coventry boys are avid readers of markmaynard.com and they recognized Nathan from the site, and remembered the story about his traumatic interaction with the racist EMU students, a few years back. Maybe the Coventry boys said “go back to the reservation” because they really are that mean and they thought it would be a good way to bring back a traumatic event in Nathan’s life?

    Maybe. Anything’s possible. Can anyone else from the markmaynard.com-community-of- super-smart-thinker-types think of another likely explanation for this seemingly unlikely coincidence?

  153. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    Ha-Ha. I was just pretending to play your stupid little game FF. What time in the video proves it? How many years have you been throwing out that tired line and then doing your gotcha? Boring. And then your self righteous labeling. I’m glad Mark provides you an outlet. Maybe you should cut him a check or at least use his Amazon link.

    As I’’ve said all along it a disturbing incident which interesting brings together many threads of American life at the moment. I’ll be interested to see how it all comes out?

    I still can’t believe that kid got that PR firm though. They are so well connected. Can you imagine how much that cost?

  154. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    You think it is a “stupid game” to provide evidence for your truth claims that support your judgment that finds a child guilty of an allegedly disgusting act? Even though the child denies it?

    You think it is “boring” to double-check your own judgments for bias?

    Are you guys just not interested in the truth? I don’t get it. Lynne said Sandmann got into Phillips face. Sandmann denies it. What is Lynne basing her judgment on? She says the video shows it. Cool. Show me the video that shows Sandmann stepping toward Nathan or stepping in the supposed “path” of Nathan….

  155. Anonymous
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    I’m going to guess that any such video is on one of the boys’ in the group phone, now quarantined by the public relations firm. I doubt that those will be released as they are also likely to be protected by attorney client privilege. Next!

  156. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Yeah, the coventry boys attorneys are the ones who are in possession of the videos that show you are not just making stuff up. If the evil attorneys hired by the evil children would just stop hiding the truth contained within those quarantined videos then it would prove to the world that you guys are not totally full of shit. The world will probably never get a chance to see how truthful you guys really are. Oh well. Next!

    #becausehiddenvideosweneversaw

  157. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    FF why do you keep saying Coventry?

  158. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Take a vacation. The stress is getting to you.

    There will be a third party investigation. They’ll get to the truth. Just give it some time.

    https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/kenton-county/covington/covington-catholic-principal-promises-independent-investigation-of-lincoln-memorial-incident

  159. EOS
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Nathan was not truthful. The videos prove his statements wrong. It appears to be a pattern on his part. The rest of the nation is talking about the rush to judgement against the white teens and the complicity of the media in spreading a false narrative.

  160. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Yeah there is probably fault on both sides. The investigators will do a better, more informed job than any of us.

    As a parent who has children who are going to start doing trips like this though I just wonder if this is typical acceptable behavior? I mean really?

    I’d hate to see the videos of EOS taking the youth group somewhere if this is OK.

  161. Kat
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Snopes says the Covington Catholic High School blackface photos are real.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covington-catholic-black-paint/

    And thank you, Eel, for that other link.

    Clearly there’s something rotten at this school.

  162. kjc
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    So nice to have a local forum for right wing assholes to shit on Nate.

  163. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    “I wonder if this is acceptable behavior?”

    I don’t know where you guys grew up but if you took a random sampling of 50 (15-17 year old boys) from my high school, sent them to the Lincoln memorial, and had strangers call them “niggers”, “faggots”, “the products of incest”, while a man invaded their personal space, beating a drum in their ears, I can guarantee the result would not be smiling, dancing, attempts at reasonable conversations, or standing still…..

    I wonder about the world that we are living in where adults not only think the behavior of the adults, in this situation, is ok but that behavior of the children in the face of various forms of verbal assault and possibly a soft form of physical assault (in the form of invading Sandmann’s personal space) is somehow not ok. For children they handled all of those hateful expression, sourced in mental illness, remarkably well, I would say. I wonder what kind of world we live in when adults are quick to repeat false claims that result in damage to children and don’t even bother to correct their false claims.

    The adults of this online community should be ashamed of themselves. I am stealing from HW here but I like his line about sustainability yesterday. Do you guys really think these tactics that have zero orientation toward the truth are sustainable? You guys are going to have to explain the side of history you were on one day. Perhaps to your children… Does that not make you feel afraid and ashamed? It should worry you. Many of you guys should feel very ashamed.

  164. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Nathan shat himself. How did he think he could just lie about what they said and did? It’s all on video! Now a whole bunch of tweets and stories have been taken down/amended to reflect what actually happened with acknowledgment that the boys did nothing wrong. So how do you think you can try to shit on me?

  165. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Sad, yes. The Catholic Church is really well known for conducting fair investigations. LOL *rolls eyes*

    I am sorry that iRobert, FF, and others are freaking out about a loss of white male privilege. I am sure it is hard but it is happening like it or not. White boys just will not be able to harass and bully brown people without consequences anymore. That is just how it is. Get used to it.

  166. M
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:27 pm | Permalink

    Well, it’s being reported that the school in Covington has closed its doors.

    School of MAGA-clad students mocking Native American closes amid fallout http://bit.ly/2FHsWdC

  167. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    KJC, I find it troubling that so many men in Ypsilanti are proving themselves to be not only racists but straight up bullies. The things they are saying about Nathan Phillips are terrible! It is not ok.

  168. M
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    New video has surfaced showing one of the young Catholic men saying to a group of women, “It’s not rape if you enjoy it.”

    https://twitter.com/AmoneyResists/status/1087712015060209664

  169. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    You failed to give the video evidence of Sandmann “getting” into Nate’s face or moving into his supposed “path”. Here is a chance to redeem yourself: Can you give us some of the worst examples of the coventry boys harassing a brown person on that day?

  170. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    There are only a handful of them, FF. That’s the good part. These are the .01 percent of the 4-6% estimated to be unreachable. If people actually read their comments they would be like fuck this. Total inverted racism/sexism in the form of collective punishment of the white male. It’s insane. We’re all in this together is how I see it. Let’s not squander this gift we have of existing (with self awareness even) on this spinning mass on the edge of a galaxy.

    I understand some people think President Trump is a threat to our planet but I am here to show that all their evidence is bogus. It happens every time like that boring movie groundhog day. Do you think it must be boring and frustrating for them to keep hopping on the latest hoaxy bandwagon every time and then be disgraced?

  171. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    “Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:28 pm | Permalink
    KJC, I find it troubling that so many men in Ypsilanti are proving themselves to be not only racists but straight up bullies. The things they are saying about Nathan Phillips are terrible! It is not ok.”

    You are trying to bully people right now and no one has done one thing to Nathan. What is the worst thing I said? No one is above reproach. That’s your inverted racism/sexism talking, Lynne. You think it’s an outrage for a “poc” to be criticized by a white male for any reason even though it is true.

  172. Steve Taylor
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    So, just out of curiosity, are you gonna walk back your egregious and incorrect reporting, or should I just mark you down as another individual with their foot in their mouth?

  173. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    FF, I don’t need to prove to you that Sandmann was getting in Nathan Phillips face. Every single picture shows that. Every single video shows that. If you can’t see it, you can’t see it and giving you stupid time points is not going to change that. What matters is that it doesn’t really matter if you can’t see it. Enough people can see it that our culture is changing and that kind of behavior will no longer be tolerated by most people. Just like sexual assault is becoming less tolerated. Our culture is changing and for the better imho. You can move into the future with the rest of us or you can choose not to.

  174. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    Haw. I will admit that watching Steve Taylor melt down on FB over this has been entertaining.

    I think we should all vote for more taxes in Ypsilanti. Actually that might be a good idea. What if we had a millage where we used the money to fund programs designed to reduce racism in our city? That might do some good!

  175. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, so you think that if a poc approaches a white male the white male has to move out of the way? And if he doesn’t then he is considered to be getting in the poc’s face? What if a white male did the same to a poc? This phenomenon of inverted racism/sexism is fascinating but in a grotesque way.

  176. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    The remarkable thing is I don’t think they feel the disgrace. I actually believed that Lynne was somewhat reformed from a few years back but I guess not. The bias and bigotry has just been kept silent, warm, under the surface and festering, waiting to express itself again…. It’s like they are a little army of social justice robots who have been programmed to believe they have the most beautiful souls no matter what hateful and counterfactual shit that comes out their robot mouths.

    Isn’t it a telling that the cowardly left has established a pattern of attacking (and making public) the mistakes and missteps of children, while simultaneously, they refuse to engage in facts when questioned about facts by a fellow adult?

  177. kjc
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    that’s amazing, FF! lol.

    close this forum. it’s a shithole.

  178. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    Do you know Nathan, KJC?

    If so, then maybe you could invite him on the forum to discuss his experience. He seems like a sweet and gentle soul. Maybe he could come on here and clear up some things he said that, when compared to videos, seems like mischaracterizations, on his part, of what actually happened?

  179. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    When I talked with him he told me who he sings for. I have the highest respect for that. I came away from the conversation understanding that he blames the white man in general for the crimes of a few. I said it’s only certain ones though, right? Not all the white people. He indicated a negative response to that. Whites are the only ones who push him out of the way on the sidewalk, he said.

  180. wobblie
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    At time stamp 2:25 Sandman was standing behind class mate with braces. At 2:40 he is standing next to the kid with braces blocking Nathan’s path.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKXY9QvgnBY&t=5s

    Just like with the Unite the Right March, privileged white boys see what they want to see.

  181. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

    How can you block someone’s path by just standing where you are? Not too good of a path is it?

  182. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Yup wobblie. That is true. Privileged white boys just have a really hard time seeing what the rest of us are talking about. I worry that they will engage in inappropriate behavior and then act all shocked when they are called out on it. Lets just hope it doesn’t involve them hurting others. Well, I am off to start writing letters to people asking that they give these boys some guidance on what is and what is not acceptable behavior in our country.

  183. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie I know you are not good at watching tv but I will ask you anyway.

    We see Nathan moving.

    We see the camera man moving.

    We see boys around Sandmann moving.

    We do not see Sandmann moving.

    At 2:35 there is approximately 24 inches of space between Nathan and Sandmann. At 2:41 there is approximately 1 inch of space between Nathan and Sandmann. What movements took place that resulted in the gap between Nathan and Sandmann being reduced to 1 inch?

  184. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    The more your hate for white males grows the more awful you appear to just about everyone. Your ranks are shrinking. More and more people of all stripes are waking up to the lies.

  185. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Since we have your attention Wobblie,

    If you get around to it: Can you tell us what Deandre Harris was doing off camera, of the Durst is the worst video, at 5:33?

  186. wobblie
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

    Covenington Catholic kids at basketball game in black face–evidently one of the reasons the school took down its internet site.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/covington-catholic-black-paint/?fbclid=IwAR2LnVb_GmcVbfZTxyu1ofQZSsWr-jE6q9N7pwhncs8uReIRk_JWa2Mb73Q

  187. anonymous
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    Frosted Flakes? more like Fecal Fleck

  188. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    “I don’t know where you guys grew up but if you took a random sampling of 50 (15-17 year old boys) from my high school, sent them to the Lincoln memorial, and had strangers call them “niggers”, “faggots”, “the products of incest”, while a man invaded their personal space, beating a drum in their ears, I can guarantee the result would not be smiling, dancing, attempts at reasonable conversations, or standing still…..”

    So what would the result have been with your cohort FF?

  189. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:26 pm | Permalink

    All I know is that being out here in California has changed my perception about some things. Like it or not, the coasts have so many people that they really do drive the culture. People here seem to almost universally see the problems with the white boy’s behavior in those videos. They are very open to hearing the voices of POC in such situations. It is a good reminder that the majority of people are moving towards more inclusion and are less tolerant of bullying than ever before. We are going to be all right even if we may need to deal with the lashing out of those white people who are freaking out because they are coming to this same realization. And of course, even if super liberal white enclaves, there is still work to be done. But progress is happening. We are becoming better people as a nation. That is going to continue. If anything one of the most hopeful things I am feeling is the knowledge that even a huge political loss isn’t going to stop progress. #metoo has certainly changed the game in very real ways. This incident will too. Everything is going to be all right. (although of course there is going to be a lot of damage to fix once we elect someone better in 2020)

  190. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    I think there are pretty good odds that if you took any random sampling of boys from my high school and put them into a situation where adult strangers were verbally assaulting them with insults like “nigger”, “faggot”, and “incest baby”, and then added the (soft) physical assault of space invasion, like Nathan appears to have engaged in, then I believe boys from my high school would have: a) fought back back with vicious verbal attacks; b) pushed back physically; c) allowed the situation to escalate into however the adults wanted it to escalate. That is, if the adults chose a physical altercation route, then a high percentage of boys from my high school would have welcomed it.

    I don’t know about you but when I was a kid I did not think to myself: When I grow up I want to go into public spaces and call children “niggers”, “faggots”, “incest babies”. I didn’t think to myself when I grow up I am going to walk around with a drum and invade children’s physical space. I didn’t think to myself when I grow up I am going to demonize children by making up lies about their behavior after I tried to provoke them.

    Maybe we went to different types of high schools?

  191. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Definitely.

    When I went on a filed trip to DC and we encountered individuals behaving in a abhorrent manner the adults that were supervising us us would have moved us along and not allowed us to jump around in front of them, shout back or chant school spirit songs to drown them out. I think they wanted to prevent us from getting involved in situations that could be harmful to everyone involved.

  192. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    FF does bring up a good point that actually is a sign of progress. In the past, white men and boys would have felt completely entitled to engage in violence to uphold their supremacy. Now, they are less likely to do so. The cameras are working!

  193. Anonymous
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    White kids should be praised when they don’t hit people who talk bad about them. Kind of like how boys should be praised when they don’t rape women.

    kjc is right. This place really is a shithole.

  194. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    Right Lynne?

    I think the sub text to what FF is saying is that’s he’s frustrated because as far as he’s concerned those Black Hebrew Israelites deserved a beating. That’s what would have happened in the good old days.

  195. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    It’s good for me though anonymous because I really don’t encounter any of this in my real life. It’s good to know what people really think. The anonymity of this site allows them to express things they probably wouldn’t say in the open.

  196. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Sad and Lynne you are both very confused.

    The best thing for any group of children when verbally assaulted, by adults, with words like “nigger”, “faggot”, and “incest baby” is to walk away and chalk it up as the adult being some kind of hateful or mentally ill person. I am not saying any group of boys ought to physically attack the black israelites for what they were saying, I am saying it is reasonable to expect that in many cases fighting words will be met with fighting especially when the groups of children are less self-aware than the Covington boys. I honestly doubt, a random sampling of boys from my high school would have had the self-control and awareness displayed by the Covington boys to respond to the verbal assault in a non-confrontational and non-violent way. I am not bragging or advocating for that sort of reactionary violence. I am stating an opinion, from my perspective, in a way that sheds light on Sad’s question, which asked what is “acceptable behavior” from the children. I am attempting to ask the question: What is considered acceptable behavior amongst adults?

    As Lynne pointed out there is some kind of measurable progress. I just disagree about where the progress is being measured. I don’t think most boys from my high school would have interpreted the hateful insults as an expression of mental illness. I think they would have seen it as an excuse to beat up someone who thought they could get away with insulting one of them or their friends. I think, as a society we are all more attuned to mental illness and its manifestations and that is a good thing. However, Newsflash: The reflex, I believe the boys from my high school would have had, to escalate the situation against the black israelites would have occurred within boys of all different ethnic backgrounds. Duh!

    The Puerto Rican (?) dude was calling people “niggers” and “faggots”. That shit is only going to be allowed to fly amongst certain types of people…I’m sorry, judge them if you want, but a high percentage of boys I went to high school with were not the types of people that would just smile that kind of talk off. Maybe kids at your high school did not mind getting called “niggers” and “faggots”, I don’t know. Was that acceptable behavior at your school?

    I love the notion put forth that the kids should have done something differently. What would have been avoided if the chaperones would have kept the kids separate from the black Israelites and Nathan? The only good that would have come out of keeping the children separate from the assaulting adults is that media outlets could have avoided running stories that proved, once again, that they are fake news without much interest in the truth. And the cowardly-robot-social-justice-warrior people, like Lynne and Sad, could have avoided looking like dishonest bigots.

    Serious question: What is wrong with you guys? It is like you are on some kind of spiritual and intellectual suicide mission. Your identity politics without orientation to truth is bound to make otherwise decent people distance themselves from you because they are afraid the crazy is going to rub off on them. You are destroying your own cause by not keeping your bigotry and stupidity hidden from the naked eye. This course you are on is not sustainable. What sort of privileged situation are you guys in that the sustainability of your causes is not really that important to you?

  197. wobblie
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Of course these same upstanding boys from Kentucky not only got into it verbally with the Black Israelite’s, stood down an old Native American, they also spent part of their day harassing woman.

    https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/news/woman-posts-brief-video-covington-catholic-boys-harrassed-my-friends-and-i-mkdq5uqY0Ei4eAOfbGjyAQ/

  198. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    I should clarify. I don’t have a good idea what Sad is even talking about most of the time. It seems like Sad is coming from a vague, passive, and confused perspective most of the time but I really don’t have a handle on Sad’s perspective– so I think it would have been better if I would have just addressed that last comment to Lynne, who, over the years, has proven to me that she is one of the people in the MM.com community that deserves to be called a dishonest bigot.

  199. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Here’s a good article for you FF.

    The best answer is often the simplest.

    Best of luck to you in your battles against SJWs!

    https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/joseph-gerth/2019/01/22/covington-catholic-chaperones-failed-protect-students/2642484002/

  200. scott
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    yes these white MAGA youths were horrible that day. After all they took up for their black classmate when he was called an “n” , they objected to the demonization of gays , and the leader of the bunch told his buddies to knock it off after being told “whites go back to Europe”
    yes they were horrible for sure

  201. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Yeah Sad, it is the chaperones fault that the writer, of the article you shared, did not do a little bit of fact checking prior to posting an article that included unsubstantiated truth claims that functioned to demonize children.

    If the chaperones would have never put the children in the same space as the adults who verbally assaulted them, then the black Israelites would not have had a chance to call the children “niggers”, “faggots”, and “incest babies” in the first place.

    If the chaperones would have never told the children to stand on the steps, then Nathan never would have had a chance to invade the physical space of the children in the first place.

    If the chaperones would have been doing their job none of it would have happened and Nathan would not have had the opportunity to misrepresent what actually happened in the first place.

    Man, if it wasn’t for those chaperones many of the people in the markmaynard community would not be looking like total assholes right now. Stupid chaperones.

  202. wobblie
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Hand signs are a key element in the new racism, a way to demonstrate solidarity with other oppressed white folks,

    https://twitter.com/LIVlNG4MOMENT/status/1087281709475717120

  203. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    Nathan got played by the hate preachers. They were spewing hatred towards native people all day. What a disgrace it is to lie about what those kids were doing and to allow himself to be used to spread hate. It’s all on video. There is no getting around it.

  204. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    Even Jake Tapper acknowledged it:

    @reason: “Video footage strongly contradicts Native American veteran Nathan Phillips’ claim that Covington Catholic High School boys harassed him. The media got this one completely wrong,” writes @robbysoave https://t.co/9Ki4iiTkQ9

    — Jake Tapper (@jaketapper)

    You people are done. Your kind of thinking is going away. Always lying and projecting hate onto people who prove you wrong. It’s not tenable to continue this way. There is too much information available to the public now.

  205. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 5:45 pm | Permalink

    “Uncle Tom-a-hawk” was an often repeated phrase by the Black Israelites.

    Stupid chaperones.

  206. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    FF, you can call me a bigot all you want but it still wont stop you from losing your privilege. I am glad though that you have stopped trying to pretend you are a decent person. It is ok, we all had your number already anyways.

  207. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    You know “Losing My Religion” by that shitty band REM? The SJW-themed parody would be “Losing My White Privilege” hahahaha! So perfectly sorry and whiny.

  208. John Brown
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, FF and HW are nothing but cyber James Earl Rays. Get off the balcony, and get gunned up. As detested as violence is to us libtards, consider who would have contributed more to the future of humanity after that day in Memphis, JER or MLK?

  209. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Careful there, gunslinger. Don’t be guilty of inciting violence.

  210. iRobert
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    It seems to me that nobody in this situation has been without fault of varying degrees. I’m glad nobody escalated to violence. I’m disappointed that the media (and social media) has taken a mess and in many ways made an enormous circus out of it. I haven’t studied the videos extensively, so I’m not an expert on precisely how full of shit each of the players in all this were. But, I think I’m glad Mr. Phillips drew the attention of the Catholic boys on to himself and away from the group of homophobic bigots, regardless of his motives or the fact that it was a bit provocative as well.

  211. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    In an interview the other Native American drummer who was seen drumming behind Nathan contradicts Nathan’s weird-as-fuck impressions of what happened.

  212. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:27 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    You are very confused.

  213. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    John Brown,

    Now might be a good time to inform you that two of my heroes in life are MLK and the real John Brown. Lynne is right about one thing. I am in a privileged position about some things. Like, I am often in a very privileged position for knowing when you and Lynne are completely full of shit.

  214. John Brown
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 7:28 pm | Permalink

    If your heros are John Brown and MLK and you support Agent Orange you have a serious case of schizophrenia. Hilarious to hear you trumptards tell anyone about confusion for “getting help”. That’s fucking Putin’s cyber warfare playbook verbatim.

  215. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 7:50 pm | Permalink

    “Hilarious to hear you trumptards tell anyone about confusion for “getting help”. That’s fucking Putin’s cyber warfare playbook verbatim.”

    Can you rephrase? I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

  216. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 8:04 pm | Permalink

    Irony overdose

  217. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    The “schizophrenic” Alveda King. Didn’t you get burned on this one before?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ndUai5y2s4

  218. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    The PR firm RunSwitch is really earning their money. The young man will be on TV tomorrow morning to clear things up.

    Which firm has Mr. Phillips hired?

    https://ew.com/tv/2019/01/22/today-show-criticized-interview-nicholas-sandmann-dc-rally/

  219. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    That’s your beef? That he got a pr firm? Mkay. With all the money at stake in the lawsuits, not to mention the safety of the young men why not get one? It sends a message the families are not fucking around.

  220. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    No. It’s smart. Especially that firm.

    I just wondered which firm Mr. Phillips was retaining?

  221. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

    Another video has emerged. It is interesting

    https://vimeo.com/312330750

    Probably, like the rest of this, a bit of a test of perception. I was reading an essay about this video and what the author saw when she watched this. It was interesting because I saw pretty much the same thing.

  222. Lynne
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    Here is what she saw (and what I saw when I watched the video above):

    “One lesson of the past two days is that you will see what you want to see here, if you are determined to do so; that does not mean that there is anything to be seen but what is there. I see a frothing mass of MAGA youth—who, since we’re taking in all angles here, go to a school where students fairly recently wore blackface to a basketball game—frenzied and yelling and out of control. I see four black men who seem to belong to the Black Israelites—a threat to women in their orbit, but not to random white people they’re heckling—yelling insults at the students. Then I see Phillips, as he has stated from the beginning that he did, walk up to the teens, in what seems to be an attempt to diffuse the situation. I see them laughing and dancing, red MAGA hats bobbing up and down in glee. I see them yell in Phillips’ face, and I see that he doesn’t falter. I see the smugness of a group secure in its relative power over someone more vulnerable than they are. Nothing about the video showing the offensive language of Black Israelites changes how upsetting it was to see the Covington students, and Sandmann in particular, stare at Phillips with such contempt. I don’t see how you could watch this and think otherwise unless you’re willing to gaslight yourself, and others, in the service of granting undeserved sympathy to the privileged. ”

  223. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    I was hopeful someone would think about this.

    Right on.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/boys-will-be-boys-covingtons-showed-yet-again-why-only-white-boys-can-smirk-through-that

  224. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Apologies abound.

    https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2019/01/21/38181376/i-thought-the-maga-boys-were-shit-eating-monsters-then-i-watched-the-full-video

  225. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    And the plot thickens. Trumps top White House lawyer graduated from the high school!

    https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/22/covington-catholic-trumps-white-house-lawyer-went-kentucky-school/2650238002/

  226. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    I hope everyone gets a chance to read the article Lynne quoted.

    The Concourse
    Laura Wagner
    “Don’t doubt what you saw with your own eyes.”

    Wagner’s essay is absolutely brilliant in its own perverse way. Thank you for sharing this Lynne. Can you provide links to more of the stuff you read? I find it unbelievably fascinating. I feel like I just stumbled upon a treasure trove.

  227. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Yeah a lot of people are apologizing for rushing to judgment. Not Lynne’s girl though!

    Here is Wagner’s explanation for why so many people have decided to recant their statements against Sandmann:

    “As for why so many people are willing to not trust their own eyes; why they’ll readily accept the MAGA teen’s shitty and unconvincing publicist-created explanation that he didn’t do anything wrong; why news organizations rolled back reporting based on little new evidence; and why so many people lashed themselves to the whipping post in the square and begged for forgiveness, the answer is, I think, simple: These people are willing to give the screaming mob of white teens the benefit of the doubt because it distinguishes them from the emotion-driven hordes. It’s something like virtue signaling, but instead of attempting to signal that they hold any type of moral or ethical principles, these people are attempting to show that they are willing to be chastened, and so are thoughtful. I can admit when I’m wrong, they say, so you can always trust me.”

    Wagner’s theory is that people are reversing their judgments, not because they were exposed to new evidence, rather because when you change your judgment on a topic, the change in a judgment itself signals to others that you are a person who is capable of thinking and people want to be perceived as the kind of person who is capable of thoughts. So, according to her theory people are not retracting their vicious and inaccurate statements about the boys out of a moral obligation to be truthful, rather people are reversing course because they see it as a self-serving opportunity to be perceived as a fair and thoughtful person.

    I will say Wagner’s theory is one of the more interesting theories I have ever heard. Remarkable stuff.

  228. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe there is someone walking around who thinks it is ok to lie like this and that there are people in this town who support him for doing it.

    “They were in the process of attacking these four black individuals,” Phillips claimed.

    Nothing spiritual about lying, Nathan Philiips.

  229. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    You can’t just make up quotes HW.

    What’s your source?

  230. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    “These young men were beastly and these old black individuals was their prey.”

    What a fuckin’ liar! Not too bright either since like I said it is all on video.

  231. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    You should know by now I don’t make shit up.

    https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2019/01/21/38181376/i-thought-the-maga-boys-were-shit-eating-monsters-then-i-watched-the-full-video

  232. Sad
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    OK

    Just keeping you honest .

  233. Micah Fitz
    Posted January 22, 2019 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

    LMAO, are you kidding me! Theres nothing to prove that Nathan Philips is an Omaha Tribal leader and lord knows he’s no honorable Marine. Marines don’t claim they are combat veterans of wars they never fought in! Lets go one step further Philips and his cronies attempted to disrupt another gathering of Catholics https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/22/nathan-phillips-tried-disrupt-basilica-national-sh/ Lets just set the record Straight Nathan Philips is to young t be a US Marine Vietnam Combat Veteran as no combat units existed in Vietnam after Aug 11th 1972. This man is less than honorable for claiming he was a combat veteran!

  234. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Is Micah Fitz right? Is Phillips lying about service in Vietnam?

    Nathan Phillips is 63 years old, likely born in 1955. He wouldn’t have turned 17 until 1972.

  235. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Even though it seemed deranged and inappropriate, I wanted to give Nathan the benefit of doubt on at least his personal motivation, but this is a piece of evidence supports the idea that Nathan probably saw the group of catholic boys as a target for his activism.

    If true, it is another example of a disturbing trend of political activists from the left targeting children for their own political gains.

  236. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    I still don’t see what Nathan did as being terribly offensive. I do see it as modestly provacative. But it is certainly less provacative than calling people the “N” word or “faggots.” But I’m starting to understand that folks like Mark, Jean and Lynne aren’t really against hate speech, or verbal attacks on people for their sexual orientation or race. For them, it’s ok in some situations. That’s good to know.

  237. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    I don’t know if this is the place to post a want-ad, but I’ll give it a shot. Maybe I’ll post on Craigslist after this. I’m looking to hire a group of men to stand around outside yelling the most offensive hate speech possible. I’ll pay by the hour, $20 cash per person. I’d just give you a few locations where I’d like you to stand and do this. I’m limiting this to adult men only, for safety reasons. The only other requirement – and this one is not mine – is that you also be black. Personally, I don’t want to discriminate on basis of race. However, Mark, Jean, Lynne and Sad have indicated that this is the only way that they’d allow it. Some of them might even praise you.

  238. Elliott
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I’m sorry. I’m coming to this late, and I haven’t read through all of the comments. But I’m trying to understand what’s upsetting you, iRobert. Is the issue that people are focusing on the 100 white Catholic boys instead of the 4 Black Hebrew Israelites?

  239. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    “…all that wanting to have the freedom to just rip me apart, that was scary.”

    Pffft!!! Give me a fucking break, Nathan! Give the world a break and meet with Sandmann and maybe even the President and come clean about this little smear campaign gone wrong.

  240. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    IRobert apparently the Hebrew Israelites do this in many major cities on a daily basis. Why haven’t we heard about it before? Because most people just walk by and ignore it. It’s called free speech. It’s what makes America great.

    Even Mr. Sandmann said in his interview today that he wishes they had just walked away instead of antagonizing the Black Hebrews.

    You and FF have this desire to control what people say, you can’t. But you can control how you react to it.

    I’m sure they will meet HW. And I’m sure the result of the investigation will be that the children were poorly supervised.

  241. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    What he really ought to do is finally grow a pair of balls and confront the Catholic Church directly for crimes against Native people. Now is the perfect time to use his platform to announce that it was a mistake to try to demonize those kids and to tell the world about his true concern: missing and murdered native women and children. That is how to salvage this major fuckup and turn it into something good.

  242. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    I don’t really worry about their supervision. They did fine. They dealt with the hate preachers extremely well. I mean they shouldn’t have had to endure that and absolutely someone should have shepherded them to a location out of earshot but you know those hate preachers shouldn’t be out there verbally assaulting people. That is the problem.

    Nathan also needs some balls to stand up to the hate preachers who were degrading Native people and whites alike all day. What kind of a warrior becomes a toady for awful bullies like he did?

  243. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    HW your toxic masculinity is showing.

    Heh-heh

  244. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Well waah.

  245. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    Wrong Sad.

    I am a pro free speech extremist. Everything depends on free-speech, imo.

  246. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Elliott, I am opposed to hate speech. I am offended by homophobic bigots. I am also disgusted by people who in one moment are claiming they are against these things and then in the next moment demonstrating that they are not. Are you responding to my want-ad? I’ll give you $20 per hour to stand outside Lynne’s house yelling homophobic and racial slurs, as long as you meet Lynne’s requirement that you appear black to her.

  247. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    I’ll do it if you buy my plane ticket to California and get me a hotel and a per diem.

    But then again I still want to wrestle HW with no shirts and tiny little shorts.

    Maybe I could combine the two and wrestle HW in tiny shorts with no shirts while yelling slurs? And getting paid?

  248. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    Sad, I understand and support people who choose not to be goaded into physical confrontation by bigots yelling “faggot” and the “N” word. But a bunch of phonies commenting on a blog about video depicting it have no reason to pretend it is acceptable or defend it.

    Unlike some others here, I like what Nathan did. I think it might have been a way to divert attention away from the bigots. I’m always in favor of taking the attention away from attention-seeking assholes.

    Why aren’t you ignoring the bad behavior of the teens the way you ignore the bad behavior of the bigots? Why doesn’t your explanation for your silence also apply to the much less offensive conduct of the teens?

    By the way, you know I know the answer. You might as well say it yourself though, because I won’t be kind in the way I characterize it.

  249. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Sad, I’d rather get people who can drive themselves to the locations where I’ll be paying them to yell homophobic and racial slurs. So far, I have four locations where I’ll be doing this. For cost savings I’ll be asking applicants to proceed to the site nearest to their home. Being that one of the sites is the sidewalk out in front of your house, I’m going to ask you to go to that one. I suppose if you were willing to drive yourself to one of the other two local sites, that would be okay with me as well. One is out in front of Mark’s house in Ypsi, and the other is up in Whitnore Lake out in front of Jean’s house.

    What you wear will be up to you. You can wrestle anyone you’d like while you’re yelling the obscenities as well.

  250. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    IRobert i don’t think I’ve demonized the children. I think I’ve been fairly consistent in positing the problem with the children as being their chaperones. What the Black Hebrews was saying was disturbing, the children’s mocking and chopping bothersome. The Black Hebrews are adults and will bear the consequences of their actions. The children were acting like children and will bear the consequences of their actions. However proper supervision might have prevented them from becoming the poster children for white supremacy.

    Wouldn’t they be better off if they weren’t in the center of this situation? Or do you think it builds character?

    I can handle your bad words. Please don’t hold back. It can’t be worse than the beating I’d take wrestling HW.

  251. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Oh, and of course, Sad, you’d have to be black. I assume you know that though, since it’s your rule that states that’s what makes it ok.

    …or okay enough to give a pass, in your case.

  252. Susan Livingston
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    please take down this fake news article!! Watch the entire 2 hour video and you will see that the boys did nothing wrong. They were verbally attacked by a group of black activists for an hour. Then, Mr. Phillips approached the boys, not the other way around. He got in the face of the boy and intimated him. Mr. Phillips also tried to enter a Catholic church in DC and was stopped by security. Mr. Phillips is not a Vietnam Veteran. Please either correct this erroneous article or remove it.

  253. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    iRobert seems like a pretty slick negotiator. I am thinking if he proposes it as a fundraising venture he might be able to get Lynne, Mark and Jean to absorb all the costs of this project.

    I am thinking he should request $100 dollars from Lynne, Mark, and Jean to support his project that helps “to give people of color a voice”.

  254. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    First, I don’t like it when shithead adults bus their brainless teens to demonstrations or protests. Packing your numbers with busloads of children just glad to be getting out of school is lame, and should be a strong indication to everyone that you’re unable to rally impressive numbers of adults.

    Second, I think all children should be raised to behave politely and not like stupid apes. For this I am almost always disappointed in how Americans are raising their offspring.

    Thirdly, I think hyper, stupid, poorly behaved animals shouldn’t be moved around in giant hurds of hundreds. They should be kept in smaller groups so that the poorest behaving ones can be dealt with swiftly and effectively.

    Essentially, I could go on and on. Most of what I see disgusts me these days. Once in a while I meet a person who is intelligent, well mannered, confident, thoughtful, considerate, etc., and I am taken by surprise. That happens less and less as our culture rapidly deteriorates.

  255. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    The teens behavior (tomahawk chops, war hoops, saying Natives were poor because they weren’t Christians –false– etc) was also bigoted. Given the numbers of the three groups represented the boys posed greater threat. The Black Israelites are common back East and maybe people here aren’t used to them. They yell horrible epithets at EVERYONE. They are the Black Nationalist version of fire and brimstone preachers. Everybody walks by them. They are usually in groups of three or five and I know of no one who finds them threatening. They are exercising their right to reprehensible public speech. If you engage them it just becomes a shouting match, but they have been at this long enough not to be physically aggressive in any way. The crowd of students was much larger and they clearly were enjoying themselves. None of it was necessary. Whatever one thinks of the Black Israelites, that does not change the also reprehensible nature of the students’ behavior and the responsibility of their chaperones to manage them where they can not do so. They are unrelated. Having bigotry hurled at you does not legitimize aggression in response and certainly not the taunting of Mr Phillips, who from my view was the only well-behaved person in the situation. The poor behavior of one group does not legitimize the poor behavior of another.

    The Black Israelites, as far as we know, did not taunt Nathan. And Nathan did not taunt the boys. So I think it’s reasonable to see Nathan as the target here as well as someone whose behavior in response can be admired. I just don;t see anything admirable in the boys. I have watched the videos several times. I know my assessment is impacted by my political beliefs. So is that of everyone else here. I suppose if you think white Christian males are victims then their behavior seems admirable.

    My question is what would everyone’s thoughts be if it had been a bunch of Black teens on a public school trip taunting an older white man?

    My belief is many of the positions would be reversed.

    The dogmatism at play here is becoming predictible and tiresome.

    I know there is bigotry and fear directed at Trump supporters. I think it’s unwarranted, especially when expressed by straight, white, well-off liberal people– which is who most often express concern for my ‘safety’ living in ‘Trump country’ (10 miles away…). Still—Those MAGA hats are triggers for many and those who wear them know it is and relish in it. A group of teen men being provocative are demonstrably dangerous to others– perhaps the most dangerous of any demographic when worked up. They are oftens excused, when white, with the equivalent of ‘boys will be boys’ rhetoric. This kind of privilege and excuse making is precisely what makes them so dangerous. These young men were poorly behaved and put themselves in the position (with so many cameras out and filming) to draw a lot of negative attention because, in their conceit and insulation, they were sure they were in the right. They were not.

    Still, these media moments suck, exacerbating all divides. Rumor is a Russian bot made this whole thing go viral. If so, the coordinators must be super pleased with themselves. No matter what side you are on, we have all been played by the Russians again…

    I hope Mr. Phillips is not being harassed. Has anyone locally reached out to him?

  256. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    PS– the earlier discussion of the right of members of any demographic to appropriate the language of their own oppression for use internally has nothing whatsoever to do with Black Israelites and was not intended as a defense of them. I feel no need to defend or condemn the Black Israelites. They are a well known and very small and harmless faction present in many public places on the East Coast. Walk on by. Nothing to see here. Just a bunch of proselytizers like any other.

    There is a reason Black Israelites don’t congregate in public in large numbers. That would not be safe for them. They travel in small groups to minimize the threat against them. Hard to imagine any other demographic for which that would be the strategy.

  257. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    Rumor has it one of the chaperones was of Russian decent. Although I blame the non-chaperone-Russian-Russians-from Russia for the garbage article Mark posted here, I do think it is safe to say a larger portion of the responsibility for the children going to Lincoln Memorial in the first place should be placed at the feet of the rumored Russian chaperone. What American in their right mind would take kids go to Lincoln Memorial when they go to DC?

    #Nathanwantedtotellthetruthbuttherussians

  258. Anonymous
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    I think that based on this comment board, we can all agree that beneath the surface, Ypsilanti is a simmering cesspool of intense mutual dislike between citizens. Thank god I didn’t complete my telepathy by mail course.

  259. Lynne
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    Wow, iRobert is *really* having a meltdown about this loss of white privilege! I still don’t know why he thinks the behavior of some black men, bad as it was, somehow justifies the bad behavior of those white boys. It doesn’t. I have never said that the insults flung were ok. I just said that they were not relevant to the narrative of this story because they are not. Those kids were acting badly and being insulted in the same way that they clearly feel entitled to insult others does not excuse them. Period. The end,

  260. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Ok I spent an hour out front yelling racial slurs.

    You can send my $20 here. Thanks IRobert, you’re a prince!

    https://www.gofundme.com/nathan-phillips-scholarship-fund

  261. Lynne
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    Jeez FF, you seem to be losing your grip on reality there. Are you ok?

    Sad can come to California and hurl insults at me all day and because I have found that I generally consider him to be a decent person, it might even hurt my feelings. I’ll probably just ignore it though but if YOU want to come out to California, iRobert, to fling insults at me, I will just go outside and stand in your face while smirking so you understand just how powerless I think you are. Bring it. Clearly the only way to treat white men in this kind of situation is the same way they treat others. I am powerful as shit and it is time that I use it.

  262. Anonymous
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    It is very easy to deal with the Black Israelites. You merely ignore them and keep walking.

    It is harder to deal with white supremacists because they get people elected into positions of power. Their candidate won in 2016 for the highest office in the nation.

  263. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    FF— the Russian bots posted the original video via a fake account targeting liberal outrage. Then a bunch of bots shared it in liberal groups where it spread vitally with the help of sone legitimate partisan sites. The conservative response took a few days to develop and I don’t know if the Russians were involved there but the rest has been established.

    Why do you mock the idea that our moral and political outrage is easily manipulated?

  264. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    The left needs to take responsibility for their ways, Jean.

    You signed yourself up for Twitter and Facebook. I didn’t.

    The Russian’s didn’t force anybody to pass judgment on anything.

    The Russian’s are not preventing anybody here from recanting their previous false statements.

  265. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    “The conservative story took a few days to develop”

    What are you talking about? 15-20 minutes of research from the time this was posted and many of us could smell a rat. I did not read or watch any organized news story about this event until 24 hours after I sifted through some unedited videos. Surprise! Watching a half hour of video led me to the same conclusions as pretty much everyone across media sources except for a few stragglers who, remarkably are not ashamed to openly display their own stupid bigotry for the world to see.

  266. Dave Rovic by proxy
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    I performed at a conservative, mainly white Catholic high school once, where 10% of the student body were in JROTC. It was probably a lot like the school those kids from Kentucky go to. The JROTC kids came to my gig in uniform and sat in front, in protest against who they thought they were coming to hear, arms crossed at all times, determined not to clap after the songs, it seemed.

    I want to reach all of my audiences, and I had no intention of failing to reach this one, though it was the first and only time I’ve ever been invited to perform at a Catholic high school. I made a wild guess that many of the students had Irish ancestry, and I focused my 45-minute school-wide concert on the history of Irish oppression by Britain, and the history of the Irish immigrant experience in the United States. I sang to them about the Irish who deserted from the US military and joined the Mexican Army, the San Patricios.

    By the end of those 45 minutes all of the uniformed JROTC boys were clapping. Several of them were very intent on speaking with me after the concert. One of them told me he had learned more in those 45 minutes than he had learned all year at school, and he was obviously wanting to learn more.

    It is our job to win their hearts and minds. A little bit of reality can counteract a whole lot of lies. Don’t give up on talking. The powers-that-be want us to hate each other. It’s been like that for centuries. This shouting will accomplish nothing.

    Communicate. Tell good stories. Judging is easy and understandable in lots of situations, but it generally only makes matters worse. Remember, we’re all human and we’re all hearts and minds to be won — especially teenagers and other children.

    (Now everybody who disagrees with this post, piss off.)

  267. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    It is not than many in this community do not mind making snap judgments. Many here don’t mind making snap judgments about CHILDREN! Many don’t think twice about it. It is incredibly fucked up.

  268. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    FF thinks he’s the catcher in the rye.

  269. EOS
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    Really. Nathan Phillips was on an Indigenous People’s March, which the boy’s supposedly interfered with. Except there were only two people on the march, and it went up the steps of the Lincoln Memorial right through the crowd of teens. Nathan has changed his story at least 3 times as more video was revealed.

  270. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    For bonus points: Does anybody want to guess the exact spot where Nathan ended his March?

  271. Lynne
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Those children are at an age where young black men are sent to prison for life after being tried as adults, fwiw. They are old enough to be held accountable for their bad behavior. Yes people have CORRECTLY judged them. I think it says a lot about FF that he has such a problem with young white boys facing consequences for their bad behavior. Luckily, his opinion doesn’t really matter. I think most people can see those boys and this situation clearly. I have been reading a lot of essays on the subject written by powerful women. This kind of thing will not stand. I noticed that little creep in the video is refusing to apologize. Well, then he deserves what he gets. I hope this affects his ability to get into college and also his ability to get a job. That is why we need more women and POC in hiring positions and college admissions positions. That is going to happen though as it is already happening and the more it happens, the more young white boys will have to face real consequences for their actions and I celebrate that.

    FWIW, I haven’t forgotten that FF blamed me and women like me for Trump. We were too uppity. And I think he was right too. Some of us seriously underestimated how horrible white men (and 53% of white women) can be when faced with a loss of privilege. Yes, they are going to push back but so what? Our country is already on track to give those who are not white men power. That is a good thing and the fact that so many are not buying this BS narrative of innocent young white boys is really heartening to me. This and the women’s march I attended in Petaluma this weekend have really filled me with hope and confidence in my power. Guys like FF really are getting the figurative kick in the balls they need. Will they come out the other side as better people? Maybe or maybe not but once young men like those in the videos learn that their actions have consequences, it may not matter. The old guys like FF will first retire and then die off to be replaced by more enlightened young men and our society will march forward and progress without them. They don’t really matter even though of course they can hurt a lot of people in the meantime by getting the likes of Trump elected.

  272. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Can you provide links to some more of the things you like to read? I find your perspective fascinating Lynne! I can only imagine the things you like to read are equally impressive! Awesome stuff!

  273. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    “Too uppity”.

    Nope. You are misrepresenting again. You are too dishonest, hateful and bigoted. Trump is not ideal but he is a natural reaction (or counterbalance) to people like you. Your kind is dying out Lynne. Any cause with spokespersons like you is doomed to fail.

    A lot of what you just said is false. I am just picking out one small thing.

    Carry on though. I find your positions very interesting.

  274. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    I really believed that Lynne had reformed her thoughts some in the last two years. Haha. I guess not. Wow!

  275. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    “They were wearing MAGA hats so….”—-Lynne

  276. EOS
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Nathan heard the Black Israelite’s hurling epithets at the students, so he took steps to diffuse the conflict. The steps he took led him to within a foot of one of the students and he proceeded to bang the drum in his face for an indeterminate amount of time. In response, the kid smiled. And Lynn thinks these “white boys” need to face the consequences of their behavior?

  277. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    “People have correctly judged them”.

    Outside of your favorite partisan hate group websites and twitter feeds you really don’t follow the news much do you?

  278. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    Apparently FF missed the November election. A number of people like Lynne got elected in case you missed it.

    EOS encourages children to behave in a way that requires hiring one of the top PR firms in the country .

  279. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Answer: Nathan’s march ended exactly where Sandmann was standing. Sandmann eventually moved and Nathan took his spot and banged his drum in perceived victory. [end scene]

    Nathan claimed he heard “go back to the reservation” again. So, I guess they were saying “go back to the reservation” after we allow you to occupy our physical space?

    That’s not weird?

  280. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    The PR firm is necessary because we live in a country of open bigots like Lynne.

  281. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    While the waste of good carbon that goes by FF, HW and EOS are busy accusing the “left” of making “snap” judgements and then not being able to woman up and change their position, they in all “consideration” accuse Nathan of lying about his time in the Marine Corp. We now know it was the Washington Post that made the error in attributing Vietnam War experience to Nathan. In none of the interviews I have seen with Nathan does he state he served in Nam. But hey it is just those evil “leftist” who just can’t grow up. Lynn is correct, your carbon will go back to the environment as if you never existed. Some people will remember Nathan long after he is gone.

    https://news.yahoo.com/wapo-issues-correction-falsely-labeling-213148657.html?soc_src=hl-viewer&soc_trk=fb&fbclid=IwAR14zzM_F-df0KrFuHeIUH3tjf7tTiDPi8PcvKbtpCaVOuNomgukjDGuoKw

  282. wobblie
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:15 pm | Permalink

    JH, when did the Russians take over the Washington Post?

  283. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Lie.

    I did not accuse Nathan of lying about his service.

  284. Lynne
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    No FF, I have always thought you were a promoter of white male privilege. You have demonstrated it again and again. If you your opinion mattered I might be moved to do the emotional labor of going through years of your posts and pointing it out to you. It doesn’t though. You can think that people like me are dying out but honestly, I don’t see it. I see the exact opposite. There are more and more people all of the time who are coming to realize that white male power needs to be taken down a peg. It is admittedly a slow process but it is happening. Still. Even in the Trump era. You might as well get used to it.

  285. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t say anything about his military service either. That’s weak, wobs.

  286. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

    Jean and Lynne seem to need my position to be that the behavior of the homophobic bigots is what caused the teens to behave badly. I of course never said that, or even suggested it. Jean and Lynne feel the need to impose on others statements and positions that they haven’t made or taken. That is what all folks with losing positions must do to convince themselves they’ve got a strong argument.

    Otherwise, I do like a lot of what both Jean and Lynne have said in their most recent posts. I am fully behind any woman who is determined to claim her God given rights. I have supported the women I know in these moments at every opportunity, and am proud of that, as it often can have a cost among some men. I honestly will choose self-respect over winning bro points with a bunch of asshole men.

    I hate that tomahawk hand gesture which idiots do, and in the tens of thousands at Indians, Seminole, and Braves games, among others. I watched a few videos of the Lincoln Memorial dust-up and haven’t heard the racist stuff Jean and Lynne have suggested were said. Maybe they can share a video with the time detail so we can all hear those things. I certainly would not be surprised if individual moronic teens yelled something racist, culturally insensitive, or the like. So it would take much convincing with me. But EOS, FF, and HW may benefit if anyone here can provide some detail as to when the racist chants or outbursts occurred.

    It seems also I may be able to help clarify another misunderstanding I noticed between JH, Lynne versus HW, EOS, FF, and myself. When we say folks like yourselves are in part responsible for Trump’s election, we are not saying it’s because you’ve done something positive for minority or women’s rights. We’re saying you have damaged the work and cause of women’s and minorities rights by alienating sane and decent people with your ridiculous bullshit. Does that clear that up for you? I can try to make state it clearer.

  287. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    Of course you think those things about me and others too. Because you are a very biased and bigoted person. It is very common for people to project their flaws onto others…Not reformed? Great. I think you are interesting. Keep it coming. Provide links. I want to read what people like you read.

  288. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Is that conjecture IRobert or do you know people who’s political standing has been changed by reading the comment section here?

  289. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    “I can try to state it more clearly, if necessary” is what I should have said.

    People can wear MAGA hats. I oppose Trump being president. I intend to work diligently to get him beat in the upcoming elections. But I don’t think people wearing the campaign hats of the opposing party means they represent absolute evil and thus the response deserving of absolute evil. People who have other political philosophies than myself are not automatically the boogeyman. White guys are not automatically the boogeyman. I’m sorry I live in a world where this very simple truth has to be explained to anyone.

  290. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Sad, I have been very active in politics, mostly in the area of trying to get Democrats elected, and I can say for certain that folks with Jean and Lynne’s attitudes have been alienating many saner folks. Many people talk about how they’re less supportive of the Democratic party because of how many loons with bullshit notions have flooded it.

    It’s actually an openly discussed problem within the leadership of the Democratic Party.

  291. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Inversely do individuals like EOS, FF and the Warlord motivate democratic voters?

  292. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

    Sure, Sad. They do, depending how active they are in the real world with it. But the inverse would be considering how much they hurt GOP support. I know Jean is active in the real world. I know less about Lynne and how overtly she expresses herself in the real world with folks that might be put off by it. I have seen the impact of people with those attitudes though, and the direct impact it can have in organizing a united front.

  293. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    In the past I have been a part of developing strategy for some campaigns, and I can tell you how we at times deliberately stirred up the more extreme folks on the other side so that the more moderate ones would be less interested in being active. It works.

    A good strategy for the Trump campaign would be to shift as much of the focus as possible onto the attitudes of folks like Jean and Lynne, where other Democrats and independents can see and experience it.

  294. Bob
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    What’s sad is support for Native issues is fleeting. People who hate Republicans use this as a way to justify hate. Republican rep and enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation, Markwayne Mullins introduced the Pay Our Doctors Act in light of the government shutdown but it was defeated 8-4 by the Democrats. This would’ve funded Indian Health Services for 2019 but who cares, right? This faux confrontation is more important to Democrats. Those boys weren’t doing anything different than what adults do at sporting events with Indian mascots. Perhaps we need to talk about that. Some Natives are ok with mascots, while others aren’t. Perhaps this is a lesson for that and we end Native mascots.

  295. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    People mostly interact with others of similar political stripes. Being an obnoxious asshole is almost always going to have more impact on people of similar political leanings than on those who differ more. You get that, right?

  296. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

    “When we say folks like yourselves are in part responsible for Trump’s election, we are not saying it’s because you’ve done something positive for minority or women’s rights. We’re saying you have damaged the work and cause of women’s and minorities rights by alienating sane and decent people with your ridiculous bullshit. Does that clear that up for you? I can try to make state it clearer.”

    Thank you iRobert!

  297. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know what EOS, FF, or HW’s real world activism level is, but I can make many educated guesses about the likely impact based on their approaches. For example, FF is a person who highly values civility. It’s clear from seeing what he says here, and how he states his case. He is unlikely to be driving people away from any cause he promotes. He’s also unlikely to upset people whom he disagrees with so much that they are motivated to do something they would already likely do. Have you lost interest in this topic, Sad?

  298. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:26 pm | Permalink

    Not at all.

    But wouldn’t your antagonistic interactions with people who should be your allies contribute to the problem?

    That’s why I like HW. I always think Trump won because he brought out people like HW who usually aren’t very politically involved. It’s interesting to see what he thinks.

    Aren’t our new congresswoman from Detroit and AOC extremists though who are bringing people to the party?

    I’m glad your nice to FF. He’s….different.

  299. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    Sad, I have very few antagonistic interactions with people who might otherwise be allies, and it’s always very intentional and strategic. I think Mark can attest to this. I have seen many people in campaigns and have observed their impact. I’ve collected a lot of data, you might say. So I’m extremely selective in the real-world.

    You may have also noticed that here on Mark’s blog, I am friendlier generally with those we identify as further right than I am with those we might say are on the left. Jean and Lynne do not think of me as like-minded or an ally at all. In fact they can’t help but ascribing to me all the things they thing of Republicans. I think the antagonistic way we have interacted here has only made them dislike conservatives more, as that is what I appear to be to them.

    By the way, did you know I was a Democrat for most of my life? I have considered myself more of an independent in recent years.

  300. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    Sad: “Aren’t our new congresswoman from Detroit and AOC extremists though who are bringing people to the party? ”

    There is a trade-off with those two congressional representatives you mention. They certainly activate some portion of the population in their own districts in support, but certainly also lose some moderates in their districts. You would have to do some analysis of the numbers to get a good sense of what impact they are having in that sense. To a lesser degree they also have these impacts outside of their districts.

    From a national strategy point of view there are many things to be considered. A good example has taken place on the GOP side with Steve King. The Republicans made the strategic choice to push him out very publically. That was because they came to the conclusion that making a show of marginalizing one of their own outliers would be advantageous at this point.

  301. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:52 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for making that contribution to the the Nathan Phillips Scholarship fund. I just checked and saw you followed through. I hope everybody who is upset about this issue pitches in a few bucks instead of just bitching and moaning. You should have done it in my name though instead of yours. But it’s OK.

    How come this post by Mark got 3.7 thousand like? Is that a record?

    If all those liked gave $10 the fund would go through the roof. Here’s the site again.

    https://www.gofundme.com/nathan-phillips-scholarship-fund

  302. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    It wasn’t me. It was one of my many adoring fans. I fully endorse the college fund, so I’m glad.

  303. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    FF— conservatives are much more likely to share Russian bot generated information, especially disinformation than liberals but both sides do it. This has been well studied now.

    Wobblie— Wapo reported it but the video clip that was so widely shared was posted from a fake account with a puncture of. Brazilian woman claiming residence in Connecticut. That account has been shut down.

    I did not claim the incident was fabricated. I claimed that it went viral on the left via Russian bots. I don’t doubt they worked both sides of this but have not seen any reports on that.

  304. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if the Sandmann family had to use all of The money they had saved for Nick to go to college to pay the PR firm?

    They’ll probably do a go fund me. FF, EOS and HW won’t give though. What’s in it for them?

    Do you really have fans? Maybe Mark can get his readers to donate. He has fans.

    https://www.gofundme.com/nathan-phillips-scholarship-fund

  305. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    “Trump won because he brought out people like HW who usually aren’t very politically involved”

    You mean like working on campaigns or something? No, haven’t campaigned for anyone in my whole life. I have been researching and dropping knowledge about politicians for a long time so I am definitely involved in that sense.

  306. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    The Russians will clean our clock if we don’t put our best people on it. I am very certain a third party actor devised the strategy of corrupting the voter identification campaigns in the flipped rust-belt states and also suppressed the get-out-the-vote operations in the big urban areas of those same states. The exit polls on election day were also falsified in those areas so that the suppression wasn’t detected. All of this was done under the noses of and without any detection by either campaign or their supporting organizations. It was really well designed and minimalistic. I’m still in awe, and worry the strategists in the Democratic Party are not on top of it. It’s going to be an incredible 20 months going into the 2020 general.

  307. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:11 pm | Permalink

    Will you vote republican in 2020 if it’s someone besides Trump leading the republican ticket?

    Will you match IRoberts donation to the scholarship fund?

    https://www.gofundme.com/nathan-phillips-scholarship-fund

  308. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    I would never donate in Nathan’s name. If for some reason DJT was not in the race then I guess I’d have to see what was going on. I don’t have any loyalty to any party. If they were a swamp rat obviously I wouldn’t do it.

  309. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “My question is what would everyone’s thoughts be if it had been a bunch of Black teens on a public school trip taunting an older white man?”

    I can participate in this thought experiment but I know you are going to hate my answer Jean.

    First, I don’t think the boys were taunting Nathan. I think Nathan was invading the space of the boys in a very weird way and although their reactions to him were not all great choices they handled themselves fine.

    Anyway, if we reverse the roles so that the black israelites are 4 white men. Nathan is say a white looking Jewish Rabbi with a drum. The catholic boys were a group of all black boys. And else being equal……Why in the world would you think that anyone, who is currently standing up for the Covington children, would not also come to the defense of the hypothetical black boys placed in the same situation, having the same reaction and after having been attacked with obvious lies from social media and fake news outlets? Of course there are some racist people who would not care about the black children but do you really think that overt racism is really so prevalent? I ask you about prevalence of that class of people because you did not set up the question in a way that accounts for the overt racists, rather, you seemed to assume that people who are siding with the children are belonging to that class of racists.

    Do you understand how fucked up your thought process is?

  310. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    iRob, you have it backwards on that. You will see. The dems have been doing the election fraud. Trump’s victory was a result of overcoming the fraud. More will come out about this before 2020.

  311. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    Do you really think there are not 100’s of PR firms out there more than willing to do work for the Covington Boys for free out of principle?

  312. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    HW, I think you misunderstand what I said, HW. The GOP did not commit any considerable fraud. A third party simply suppressed get-out-the-vote operations from within the Democratic campaign, and managed the exit-polls on election day so as to keep what was happening from being detected until after the polls closed in the targeted Eastern Time zone states. The GOP and the Trump campaign were not involved in this. Additionally, it may not be even categorized as fraud. It’s practically fair-play from a legal standpoint. We’d have to ask a lawyer, but it would be essentially impossible to prove anyway. A third party actor, did this. From your perspective, you may even consider it was an internal betrayal against Hillary from within the Democratic Party. It was certainly carried out by Democratic campaign decision-makers at the top. If you look at this, you will conclude it was mutiny from within the Democratic ranks. That’s a very real aspect of it, and some might say even the entirety of it.

  313. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    FF you think RunSwitch was working pro-bono?

    You’re a trip.

  314. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    IRobert— while your defense of white male supremacy or at least the need to protect and preserve it is clearly deeply felt, I’d argue that it’s the past not the future of the Democratic Party, both demographically and strategically. I’m afraid the young tend to agree with Lynne and I about the path to equity. And then there is the make up of both the country and the most reliable Dem voters, if not those in leadership in the party.

    I have no doubt that Trump’s victory was in part due to a freak out about Obama’s election and where we are headed culturally. We agree on that. You see that as reason to pull back on efforts towards social change outside of economic measures. I see it as reason to move more aggressively towards those goals.

    Lastly, Bob has a strong point. The Dems have little to hang their hat on re support for Native people. Even Warren did nothing for Standing Rock, despite her drops of native blood. Obama made some inroads but failed at standing rock to engage native concerns meaningfully. If we care about native people, maybe we need to focus more attention there.

    I’d love to hear Mark interview Mr Phillips about Native concerns locally and nationally, outside of the incidents of bigotry that attract so much attention from us.

  315. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    I highly doubt the Covington families are paying the PR firm a penny.

  316. Jean Henry
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:43 pm | Permalink

    FF et al— we live in a racist society. This is well documented. By research and data. We treat people differently according to their race, gender, sexual preference and (dis)ability status. If iRobert worked on canpaign strategy, he knows this. It’s well documented. It amazes me that people in the US still deny that double standards exist based on race.

    Please FF produce one lick of statistical evidence that Americans do not demonstrate bias based on race.
    I’m waiting….

  317. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    Jean, you’re an idiot. I am in favor of women taking as many of our elected offices as possible. I would be overjoyed to see women properly represented or in overwhelming majority control of everything. I think I’ve said as much many times. You have to misrepresent other people, and that makes you an idiot who can’t argue a good case against the actual beliefs and stands of your opponent. Very weak, Jean.

  318. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I just made a statement that said there is a class of people that would side with the Covington boys and against the hypothetical black boys strictly because they are racist. Given that fact, why would you think I would believe that American’s do not demonstrate bias based on race? I asked you how big you thought the class of people who would reverse their support for the Covington boys if they were black boys all other things being equal. Certainly you don’t really believe that THE REASON people are defending the covington boys is because they are not black right? So, what percentage do you think? I would say 5% would reverse their support if they were black. Likewise I would guess 5% of people like you would give the black children support, which you have withheld because of skin color and hat color, because you are part of a group of people that can not see past your own bias and bigotry to make judgments. Sorry. I think you are part of that ugly 10%.

  319. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “while your defense of white male supremacy or at least the need to protect and preserve it is clearly deeply felt, I’d argue that it’s the past not the future of the Democratic Party, both demographically and strategically. I’m afraid the young tend to agree with Lynne and I about the path to equity. And then there is the make up of both the country and the most reliable Dem voters, if not those in leadership in the party.”

    The young have very progressive ideas. But they do not subscribe to the bigotry and scapegoating you promote. I fully support the immediate take-over of the Democratic Party by women and racial minorities. I’ve been involved in that fight for decades, while you were doing nothing. I campaigned for Jackson in ’88 and helped him win Michigan. What were you doing? When did you become such a revolutionary?

    JH: “I have no doubt that Trump’s victory was in part due to a freak out about Obama’s election and where we are headed culturally. We agree on that. You see that as reason to pull back on efforts towards social change outside of economic measures. I see it as reason to move more aggressively towards those goals.”

    That’s not what I said at all. I said there was a very high-level mutiny against Hillary within the Democratic Party. It may have only been a few individuals, but they were key decision makers.

    Your reading comprehension can’t really be this bad, Jean. You read a lot. It just doesn’t make sense.

  320. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Are yu skimming, Jean, and then just filling in with the voices in your head. That’s what it seems like you’re doing.

    It’s been a few minutes. Should I remind you again that I want women to take over as much of government as possible. I’ll even add that I want to see women taking control of as many CEO positions and corporate boards as possible. I’d also like to see minorities represented proportionally or better. I want all this as soon as possible. I think our country needs to break the old boys network urgently. It is killing us.

    Will I need to repeat this again in another 10 minutes? Can you try to remember this for me?

    Also, please tell me your earliest recollections of your significant activism. I’m curious to know when you fell off the turnip truck.

  321. Lynne
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:13 pm | Permalink

    I think it is adorable the way iRobert and FF think they mansplain to me anything anout women’s rights. When iRobert says that people like me are alienating the sane people 8n the party, what he means is that we are making the white men in the party angry by challenging their notions of power and where it should be. Good! They need to be challenged!

  322. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, you must have missed my paragraph earlier addressing what you just said, and FF’s reposting of it. I’ll post it again, since you seem to be having a difficult time getting it.

    “When we say folks like yourselves are in part responsible for Trump’s election, we are not saying it’s because you’ve done something positive for minority or women’s rights. We’re saying you have damaged the work and cause of women’s and minorities rights by alienating sane and decent people with your ridiculous bullshit.”

    Your bigotry and scapegoating makes other women and other people of minority status uncomfortable. Most people aren’t interested in scapegoating or bigotry coming from anyone, especially not the people who are supposed to be allies.

    Do you get what I’m saying yet?

  323. Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    By the way, Jean and Lynne, have you donated to the Nathan Phillips scholarship fund? One of my devoted fans donated $20 in my honor. Will you outbid me with your donation?

    https://www.gofundme.com/nathan-phillips-scholarship-fund

    Oh yeah, and it’s been a few minutes since I last said it, so…
    It’s your bigotry and scapegoating makes other women and other people of minority status uncomfortable. Most people aren’t interested in scapegoating or bigotry coming from anyone, especially not the people who are supposed to be allies.

  324. Lynne
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

    iRobert, It is true. I am not really reading what you write terribly closely and am just kind of sort of skimming it. I haven’t seen you make any good points when I have read your responses closely so I feel it is fair to assume that you still are not. Just making your crazy straw man arguments in favor of white male patriarchal power. Luckily for me and my time, your opinion doesn’t matter that much to me. I certainly question your ability to accurately judge anyone’s sanity. The world will continue to change and progress. Young white boys will increasingly find that this sort of behavior from them will not be tolerated. It is for the best.

  325. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    I’ll keep my comments short for you, Lynne. What have you done for women’s equality, and the equality of minorities?

  326. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and it’s your scapegoating and bigotry which other women and minorities are uncomfortable with. You haven’t noticed that?

  327. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    I’m assuming you were a victim of a crime perpetrated against you by a white male, as that would be the most logical explanation for your race-focused hatred. In that case, I certainly can understand the anger, but you should understand that it isn’t a criminal’s race which should be thought of as the cause, right?

  328. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and you must have missed it, Lynne. You said: “Just making your crazy straw man arguments in favor of white male patriarchal power.”

    I’ve made my position about wanting white men’s power minimized as much and as soon as possible, and I’ve actually gotten off my ass to do something toward those goals. What have you done? Besides complaining I mean.

  329. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    Since Jean and Lynne seem incapable of making their case, do any of the many other people who share their views want to jump in and make their case for them?

    How about you, Sad?

  330. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    Ummmm. No.

    I can only speak for myself.

    And FF says I don’t even do that very well.

  331. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    Oh, I thought there would be a flood of folks stepping in to say they agree with Jean and Lynne’s scapegoating. I assumed they’d try to word it differently. But anyway, it would make more sense than their repeated misrepresentations. They wouldn’t do well in any debate.

    I don’t know why FF is so mean to you.

    By the way, I tried to get Jean and Lynne to make a contribution to the Nathan Phillips scholarship fund. I think they wouldn’t just to spite me. Se what I mean about antagonizing people causing them to distance themselves from common causes irrationally? I’m sorry I turned them against that. It might just be that they are all talk (complaining) and really haven’t done shit ever in their lives for any cause they claim to support. I get the sense that it’s all about the scapegoating for them. Just looking for someone to blame for their personal anger.

    https://www.gofundme.com/nathan-phillips-scholarship-fund

  332. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    I Robert, do you think FF is correct and the PR firm is working for free? Do you have a ball park on how much something like that would cost?

  333. John Brown
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Every act of domestic extremist violence in 2018 committed by right wing nut jobs. So my call for liberal defense is 100% just find and hardly inciting violence. That should be obvious, unless your brain is damaged enough to believe the Orwellian manipulations coming outta that POS Agent Oranges puckered little mouth.

    https://www.adl.org

  334. iRobert
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    PR firms charge a lot. Because of the very partisan nature of this incident, I actually wouldn’t be surprised if a firm own by a big GOP contributor offeeed their services without charge. Republicans stick together.

    I’d say their services run thousands per day. Being a big nationally covered issue, I’d say they usually charge top dollar. I’d have to research the firm and get back to you. So what I’ve said so far is just a guess based on what I know now about things, which is almost nothing.

  335. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    Too bad you have to assume all these different characters to try to make it look like there are lots of people as sick as you, John Brown or Dirty Peter or whatever it is. You better be careful. You better not be found to be making credible terroristic threats. Of course you aren’t credible in the least but you never know how someone might view it.

  336. John Brown
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    Call the FBI, oh wait Agent Orange has them shut down to protect his criminal ass. He’s also the single biggest inciter of violence in the USA. You need to own that your side had been using threat of violence through the militia movement for a long time. Fuck with me and I’ll get the NRA to defend me with some of their Ruskie rubles. You have no clue about the distinction between advocating defense and undermining the Constitution through inciting actual violence. Fucking morons.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/right-wing-terrorism-trump-rhetoric.amp

  337. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    That’s funny you would call someone else a nutjob. Even though you are playing a character you are sick. It comes through in all your posts in all your different names really strong. Too bad for you you won’t do shit, ever. What is a little bitch like you going to do in reality? Nothing.

  338. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    HW aren’t you playing a character?

    Why spewing all this hate?

    The Hebrew Israelites are happy with the incident, it was divine intervention to help them get the word out. One day HW you will be their slave.

    Cracker. That’s right. Those are wrestling words you thug!

  339. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    In the video the Hebrew Israelites were referring to Mr. Phillips as Gad. One of the other twelve tribes which is composed of the Native American peoples.

    There’s lots of educational videos on YouTube.

  340. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:27 pm | Permalink

    I represent my views truly always. Dirty Peter is pretending to be militant. There is such a thing as fighting words. The Supreme Court has upheld that as an affirmative defense. It could actually be used by someone who got into a fight with the hate preachers.

  341. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    It ain’t hate if the message is great!

  342. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    Oh yeah, everything is a big fuckin’ joke. I’m Sad – I’ll just say trolly shit ’cause I never have anything real to say.

  343. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    You think Native people with integrity would stand for that Gad shit? All those things they said about Native spirituality; you people are ridiculous.

  344. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Hey I spent an hour calling people pussy crackers in order to get IRobert to donate to the scholarship fund. That wasn’t easy for a SJW such as myself. Why don’t you make a contribution HW. Let’s give people a hand up instead of working to keep them down!

    Here’s the site buddy. I double dare you to do something positive. It sin’t No laughing matter.
    No one’s given since I Robert.

    https://www.gofundme.com/nathan-phillips-scholarship-fund

  345. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    Just watched the Sandmann interview.

    Great kid! He did the right and brave thing to not apologize for just standing there.

    He claimed that he felt like Nathan was trying to provoke a negative response out of him. That is exactly how I interpreted Nathan’s actions. The fifteen year old showed a lot of maturity. His parents should be proud of him.

    Now it is time for Nathan to step up, like an adult, and take responsibility for his actions and misrepresentations.

  346. Sad
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    At least M&M is honest-

    No apologies! Nah, suckers, I’m not sorry
    You can all sue me, y’all could be the cause of me
    No apologies! Y’all feeling the force of me
    No remorse for me, like there was no recourse for me
    No apologies! Not even acknowledging you at all
    ‘Til I get a call that God’s coming
    No apologies! Laugh, fuckers, it’s all funny
    I can spit in your face while you’re standing across from me
    No apologies!

  347. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    These are the kinds of responses that make me unsure about your perspective, Sad.

    I see no connection between the point of view presented in this Eminem song and Sandmann’s point of view, as it is conveyed in the interview. No connection at all. Is there a connection you see?

  348. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 23, 2019 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Oh, I think I get it.

    Are you trying to say Eminem was honest that he was disrespectful and unwilling to apologize, whereas, in your opinion Sandmann was dishonest about his disrespect and unwilling to apologize?

  349. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Now Sandmann will be forever known as the smug kid who didn’t even have the decency to apologize. Unless of course his PR firm can scrub the mentions. We will see.

  350. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 6:29 am | Permalink

    It’s cute, but I really do think every comment directed at me is from my peter.

  351. iRobert
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    Nathan is on NBC Today now.

    He says he “never set foot in South Vietnam Nam.”

  352. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    I am not worried about Sandmann anymore. He will be fine. I did not mention it but I am also proud of , and feel thankful toward, all the people out there that had the decency, intelligence and humility to apologize for their initial snap judgments against the children. I think some good came out of this whole thing. It taught people to resist their snap judgments even if an image fits perfectly into their narrative. More importantly, this event brought into focus, once again, that there is a very real bigotry problem on the left. It is a real problem. We need to study it and try to get rid of it.

    I am quite serious when I told Lynne I want to read what she reads. The Laura Wagner Lynne cited as expressive her thoughts is a total disaster. I can only imagine there are more disastrous writings available on whatever thinly veiled hate-group websites Lynne frequents.

    Make no mistake Lynne. History will remember the class of people you belong to. Your ideas and your chosen approach will be re-presented one day, as one of the obstacles we had to overcome in order to become a more just, equal, peaceful, and loving world.

  353. iRobert
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Sad,

    RunSwitch has been Kentucky’s leading PR firm for about five years. But Kentucky is a pretty small market really. They don’t look to be a partisan sort of operation. I doubt they would charge anywhere near as much as the big firms in DC or NY do.

    It seems possible to me that one of the owners is a devout Catholic and might be motivated to offer his company’s services pro-bono to the high school. It’s also possible a private doner may be paying for the services.

  354. iRobert
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    My theory regarding Lynne is that she was a victim of a crime perpetrated against her by a white male. It seems a logical explanation for her race-focused hatred. If that is the case, I can certainly understand her anger, but focusing on the race of the perpetrator is not productive. Blaming the perpetrators behavior as an individual on his race is a common reaction, but not helpful in race relations, nor helpful to the individual in their coping with the experience of being a crime victim.

  355. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    I certainly hope Lynne was not the victim of a traumatic event.

    I have had many theories to explain the bigotry on the left.

    Ranging from “there is something in the water” effecting their logic, to it is a natural unfolding of the logic of identity politics.

    I have recently started wondering if there might be some kind of pharmaceutical explanation for the sorts of arguments we hear repeated on mm.com. I have secretly wondered if maybe some of the people displaying the same logical tendencies are on the same type of doctor prescribed drugs. Perhaps medications for depression or anxiety? I know I am going into rude territory here and this could be considered the ultimate gaslighting on my part but I am truly concerned and curious how these reoccurring fake arguments that are expressed shamelessly are possible.

    (I also know that my statements above can be construed as concern trolling.)

    I am being sincere though.

  356. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Dirty Peter has dong envy of the Warlord. “Awww gee! I wish I could have one of those. Let me just talk about it some more. Got to get that thing off my mind. It’s taking over my life; what am I going to do?”

  357. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    “It’s cute, but I really do think every comment directed at me is from my peter.“

    Can’t make this stuff up.
    Pete left the building months ago. The only one obsessed with ‘your peter’ is you HW.

    Re traumatic events perpetrated by white males— Have you guys not heard of me too? Chances are any woman you know has experienced some degree of trauma by a white make. Most didn’t think of it as trauma because it’s so fucking commonplace, but it seems we don’t want our daughters, grand daughters or any young women to have to go through the same. At any rate, the experience of abuse by shite men is all around us and does not in any way diminish the perspective of the survivor. To suggest so is super sexist and f’d up in the way you are reliably so, iRobert.

    I’m not sure who you think you are impressing with these comments, but you’re making an ass out of yourself on a blog post that’s getting wide readership. I can only hope most readers don’t bother with the comments section which has become a sewer.

  358. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    ‘Shite men’ was my best typo yet.

  359. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    “Can’t make this stuff up.”

    But he did make it up and used my nickname, a typically scumbaggy move . Oh, yeah none of this shit is Peter “Larsen”…If it’s not like you say, who is impersonating him, Jean? Who else is that obsessed with me and my dick around here?

  360. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Yeah, white is shite! You should turn that into a chant at your next rally. At least it would be new. Those chants you do now were played out in the 80’s. Do you think you will go far with this anti-white male agenda? I think the vast majority of Americans would reject it for the same reasons I do: it’s racist and sexist, not to mention plain idiotic.

  361. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Mark: “OK, I’m going to show my kids these videos now, and ask them what they’d do if they ever found themselves in a situation like this. Here’s hoping they respond like the decent human beings I know them to be.”

    Mark, someday your children will replay these videos to you and ask you: What should have a decent person and adult journalist have done?

  362. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    I’m a little obsessed HW.

    It’s just that whole Conan the Barbarian thing that you bring to my mind.

    Swoon.

    I told you I wish there was a Tom of Finland drawing of you.

    FF- you are really a nut job. Something in the water. WTF

    Fist pump to Mr. Phillips this morning on the Today show. Your heart song in strong and the truth always lives even it doesn’t prevail.

    Ypsi should welcome you home with a parade!

  363. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    But you are relatively harmless, Sad. Peter Lorsan does nothing but spread hate.

  364. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Today I am reading GQ

    https://www.gq.com/story/maga-teens-benefit-of-the-doubt

    The culture is changing. When most other people see a problem with the way guys like FF and others desparately try to cling to their privilege, it is hard on them. They first try to bully people into accepting their privilege by saying that tjose challenging white privilege are the real racists. Then when that doesnt work, they start suggesting that the people who no longer give weight to their opinions are mentally ill. Whats next? Complaining that you freedom of speech is being violated because no one wants to listen to your bullshit anymore?

  365. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    I admit, it was not my best theory, Sad.

  366. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    Yeah, it’s such a privilege to not be abused by racial religious nuts and framed up by a couple of hateful, cowardly guys and the media!

  367. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Lynne,

    Media outlets change. Marketing strategies change. Even the etched marble of your tombstone which will read “here lies an unreformed bigot” will change and fade.

    The current politics of GQ is a shabby peice of evidence in the face of Truth.

    Truth ain’t going nowhere.

  368. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Who do think I am bigoted against? White men? Seriously? I mean listen to yourself. You are up here saying that if I dont accept your privileged status, I am a bigot. Um….ok. Nice try. Besides some of my best friends are white men (they also see right through you). I mean you obviously can have any opinion you want but I am confident that most people will not see me as the bigot 8n this situation. It will only be loser white men who dont matter most likely. I am ok with that.

  369. M
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    For what it’s worth, I am a white male and I am neither frightened nor intimidated by Lynne.

  370. Mary Betn
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Don’t you hate it when you publish fake news because it fits your agenda. Gee, I bet you feel dumb.

  371. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Thank you, M. I can say that most white men I know too are not quite as invested in holding on to their privilege as some here. That is one of the things that gives me hope. I see most of the men around me making real progress in their attitudes and in how they treat others. I really appreciate that. I think most of the fathers I know, if they were to see a video of their son acting in this way would punish him severely. And by that I mean they would sit him down in the living room and force him to have a difficult conversation about privilege, about kindness, about appropriate public behavior, about the value of a sincere apology etc. Not something too harsh from an adult perspective but tortuous sometimes to a teenager. I used to call it “the treatment”. LOL I can see that M is that kind of dude too. I think it results in thoughtful kids who end up making the world a better place.

  372. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    In this case, I think you are bigoted against a child because he is white and wearing a maga hat. Further, in this case, you are are also bigoted against anyone who defends a child who is white and also wearing a mega hat.

    You might argue that there are reasons other than the boy being white and wearing a mega hat but none of your arguments have been convincing. In fact, the evidence you have provided for your justification in calling Sandmann “a thug” and a “little creep” has all been demonstrated to be based upon unsubstantiated (false) claims and mis assumptions on your part. What is supporting your narrative? Bias and that is about it.

    There is no evidence the boys chanted “build the wall” as you asserted.
    The boys did not approach Nathan, rather Nathan approached the boys.
    There is no evidence that Sandman either approached Nathan or stepped in Nathan’s supposed “path”.

    There is evidence that Nathan “got into”, as you say, a child’s face. There is also room, imo, to speculate that Nathan was attempting to provoke a child toward some political ends as he is a known activist according to common knowledge and wikipedia.

    I am open to seeing your evidence. Maybe every video I have seen and heard was doctored? Show me the evidence. Until you can provide evidence to substantiate your claims I am forced to believe that your contribution is just another piece of evidence that you are someone who is willing to demonize and smear people as it is convenient for you personally and as it fits in with your very backward and doomed to fail political tactics and agenda.

  373. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Is Nathan’s father still alive? I hope so. Maybe Mark could bring him in to give an interview?

  374. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    FF your cruelty and hard heart come through loud and clear.

    Don’t you have a dog you can go kick and give us a break?

  375. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    I admit, the last comment by me was going too far. I apologize. I just don’t understand why we should be willing to judge the imperfect behavior of children in a confusing situation at a much higher standard than we are willing to judge adults who are in the same situation and who are the ones who are mostly responsible for creating the confusing situation in the first place.

  376. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    FF, you are not open to anything. All I can see here is a man desperately clinging to the last vestiges of white male privilege in a manner similar to a two year old who has lost his favorite toy. It isn’t bigotry to acknowledge the racism in the MAGA message imho but rather the opposite. It isn’t bigotry to acknowledge that Sandmann and his fellow students are acting in a way that almost no one without that privilege would dare act because in the past, as you have stated earlier, anyone challenging white boys in that way would be met with violence. Mostly I think you are a pretty heartless broken man devoid of compassion for anyone who isn’t a white man. So of course it is pretty easy for me to dismiss your opinions of my “bigotry” towards conservative white men as if I don’t have very real and valid criticisms.

    I don’t expect to convince YOU (or iRobert, or HW or any other man overly invested in keeping his privilege at the expense of women and POC). My arguments are made for myself and for others. I know for sure that my arguments are effective, btw. I had a couple of friends fall for the PR firms message but after talking to them, they have seen how they were taken in. I think your fear isn’t so much that my arguments are not effective but that they are. I have a voice and people listen to me. Others like me have voices too and they also are being listened to more and more all of the time. That is just how it is. I mean, I didn’t even realize how much such voices are being listened to until I got here to California. It is almost universal. I haven’t met a single white man here who thinks that kid’s behavior or his smirk or his body language was ok. Not one.

  377. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    ..muh privilege

  378. Sadder
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    I believe Mr. Phillips was taken from his mother a put in foster care. I could be mistaken.

    The poor treatment of indigenous peoples isn’t something that only happened in the past.

    Those children’s behavior was unacceptable as far as I’m concerned.

    Some feel differently. So be it.

    We’ll see how things go in 2020 and beyond.

  379. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    “in the past, as you have stated earlier, anyone challenging white boys in that way would be met with violence.”

    This is a misrepresentation sourced in your bigotry, Lynne. Follow your lies to their source, Lynne.

    I specifically said that a random sampling of boys from my high school OF DIFFERENT ETHNICITIES would not have handled being called “nigger”, “faggot”, and “incest baby” with as much grace as the Covington boys. I also said the best thing for a child to do (of any ethnicity), who is being verbally assaulted by an adult, is to walk away. You are trying to make it sound like I am longing for a day when “white boys”, your words not mine, would beat up minorities who questioned their privilege. Why would you misrepresent like that, Lynne? I know the answer. Why don’t you?

  380. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    Which is it FF- your own mind is playing tricks on you!

    Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 21, 2019 at 3:35 pm | Permalink
    Yeah Sad. They should have retreated the second they were called “nigger” “faggots” “children of incest”. We should, from now on, just encourage the next generation of youth to simply ignore racist and homophobic insults from adult strangers by encouraging them to retreat back 50 feet.
    MLK would be so proud of that sentiment, Sad.
    I’m sure you are super-progressive person on the cusp of making the world a better place.

  381. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    “I think your fear isn’t so much that my arguments are not effective but that they are.”

    The logic of bigotry is very seductive you idiot.

    It’s your tombstone, Lynne.

  382. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    Lynne was referring to a different statement I made after you asked me about what a random sampling of boys from my high school would have done if put in that same situation. I definitely do not think, in general, the boys I went to high school would have the sophistication and grace to handle the verbal assault from the black Israelites. There would not have been a third option of reasoning things out. Two choices would be fight or leave. I would have encouraged those types of groups of boys, like my classmates, to just leave.

    The Covington boys are a different story. They did fine. At one point a black israelite said: “You are faggots” . A covington boy responded: “Is that bad?”

    Likewise, I would have trusted a bunch of 15 year old Martin Luther King’s to stand and respond to the black israelites because a group of young MLK’s would have been able to handle it….

    Make sense?

  383. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    Oops,

    meant to say “the boys I went to high school with would NOT have the sophistication…”

  384. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

    As Vice reported, Runswitch PR, the firm the Sandmann family hired, has a history of supporting powerful Republicans, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. Runswitch PR was founded by CNN contributor Scott Jennings, a former adviser to McConnell and George W. Bush. Jennings currently advises a McConnell super PAC.

  385. iRobert
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    You’re a piece of shit, Jean, for suggesting I don’t care about women who have been victimized by men. You’ll notice I don’t specify the race. You do. That’s because you are a sick, race-obsessed bigot. who promotes racial hostility and degradation.

    What I was suggesting earlier was that Lynne seems like she was the victim of a crime committed by a white male. I know all women are victims of this sick culture. I was talking about a crime a defined by law. You really really have very poor reading comprehension, Jean.

  386. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    Good article on rich white boys and native americans.

    https://truthout.org/articles/the-maga-boys-are-racist-brats/?utm_source=sharebuttons&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=mashshare&fbclid=IwAR2_3b0hHYYfckXV6T6R5qJQGc3k9QVxHBOMhiTkIuDNMaSvqwzKQIFUUUs

  387. wobblie
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    How rich white folks control the narrative.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/video/holy-cross-valedictorian-denied-right-to-speak-at-graduation-1242874435812

  388. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    FF always cracks me up. He always expects others to do his research for him and then he gets mad when people fail to jump to and accept those commands coming from a privileged white man. Your privilege doesn’t float with me. I have no need to make my point. You already made it right here in this thread. Anyone can see it just like anyone can watch any one of those videos and see how horrible those white boys were treating others at that march. It is interesting how quickly white men like you resort to bullying when your privilege is challenged but I think you will find that your bullying is not going to silence my voice. I hope Nick Sandmann will get the same message. I hope he gets it in time to make a full apology and amends before it hurts him too much. Like it or not, that photo of him may become as iconic as other similar photos of white men losing their minds over a perceived loss of privilege.

    *smirk*

  389. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    iRobert, I think you confuse poor reading comprehension with people just not really giving a shit about you have to say.

    As anyone here knows I have my issues with Jean so I hope it carries more weight when I say that in this discussion, she is not being treated especially fairly. I expect many others see through those who are trying to bully HER into being quiet too. From what I know about Jean though, it will not work. And while I don’t always appreciate what she has to say, I am still glad she has a voice and isn’t afraid to use it!

  390. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the links, wobblie!

  391. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    I am asking you to do research for you, dummy.

    You are proud that you do not provide evidence for your truth claims? That makes you a strong woman? LOL.

    Have you ever heard the story about the evil anti-semite who met a jew who to his surprise did not seem at all silver-tongued and cheap? The Jew said: What do you think of us now? The evil anti-semite said: You are not a real Jew.

  392. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    IRobert— you suggested that Lynne was traumatized (which is offensive enough an presumption on its own) as a means to deligitinose her perspective. (Basically a civilized version of the crazy birch trope) If the direct experience of oppression delegitimizes one’s perspective than the only legitimization perspective is that of the oppressors. This is simply a means to stifle dissent and preserve the status quo and your yes white and male and straight etc privilege. That isn’t to say that others don’t have forms of privilege and degrees of oppression at the same time. That isn’t to say others can’t or do t oppress by protecting our privileges. When I say white make orivilege I’m simply identifying who has nothing to gain from equity and the most to gain from maintaining the status quo. Intentions, however heartfelt, don’t mean shit. I’m sure your antagonism to equity is subconscious. Clearly your ego around the sanctity of your liberalism is intense or you wouldn’t lash out at Lynne and I as you do, while defending other white men, many conservative. Your words and extreme defensiveness speak volumes. Good luck out there. Your point of view is quickly being relegated to the dustbin of history. Thank god.

  393. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    FF,

    *smirk*

  394. iRobert
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Jean and Lynne,

    I’ve actually done things in my 35 years of political involvement to get women elected, appointed and promoted. What have you two done besides complain?

    I think your rhetoric is entirely based on your personal anger and hatered. You are just trying to package your personal hostilities as if they are a political and activist position or philosophy. But it’s clear you don’t do anything but complain. You’ve just found your white male privileged scapegoat and you are desperately going to cling to it no matter what. It has done you harm. You don’t realize this anger and hatred is severely damaging your personal lives. You really should think about what it is that you’re really so angry about. I suspect you have very good reason to be.

    I see the behavior and attitudes that Lynne displays often in victims of crime. It’s uncanny really. I’m very sympathetic to victims of crime, especially violent crime. So this exchange with Lynne has been challenging. I want to be blunt with her, but I suspect I would sympathize with her if I knew what Dulles her with so much hate.

    With Jean, it seems more like PTSD, which is another condition with which I can indentify and sympathize. So on the one hand I want to be helpful, and on the other hand I want to call her out and expose her bullshit. This is typically how people with PTSD challenge the people around them.

    Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

  395. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    I would be curious as to what you think is wrong with FF, EOS and HW?

  396. iRobert
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Jean, suspecting that your anger stems from post traumatic stress doesn’t delegitimize it. I feel that is something for which almost everyone can feel some compassion. It is totally understandable if you have suffered some traumatizing event and have gotten shaken up by it. It isn’t something I feel ashamed of in terms of the degree to which I’ve experienced it, and I feel the same about others who have. I don’t even claim my traumatic experiences approach the severity of what others I’ve met have experienced. I don’t suggest you may have PTSD in any attempt to delegitimize your atritudes. I bring that up in hopes you will consider what you’re doing.

    Same goes for whatever is behind Lynne’s anger and hatred. I am trying to oppose her anger and hatred while acknowledging there are certainly legitimate reasons people feel anger and hatred. It’s just that resorting to it doesn’t do you any good, or anyone else either.

  397. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    I think Jean has a point insofar as it is extremely rude for you and I to speculate on Lynne and Jean’s mental health . I do disagree with Jean that the reasons mental health was brought up were as an attempt to delegitimize what they are saying. I think we need zero help delegitimizing their statements.

    I apologize for overstepping what is appropriate on an online forum.

    Having said that I would be very interested to get basic statistics on the kind of pharmaceuticals people are using. How much alcohol people use. Info on whatever kinds of drugs people might be on… I would only be interested in gathering this information if people are willing participants in sort of a survey.

    HW’s pot smoking and how it may or may not have effected his thoughts in a negative way was flung around for quite awhile by Jean and Pete, I think. Maybe it was just Pete? I am not sure…. So, it would not seem all that unreasonable to ask what sort of prescribed drugs and the amount of alcohol everybody is on….

    I am just trying to figure out how any of these positions are possible….

  398. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    What about HW EOS and FF? There’s a lot of anger there too?

    It is a little weird how you just go after the women. I mean I know you’ve said you’re a sexist but then why pretend you’re trying to be helpful?

  399. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    If you strip away the assumptions about gender and read the writings do you really think that anybody here possesses more of the traits conventionally understood to be part of “toxic masculinity” than Jean and Lynne.

    There is a reason iRobert says he always assumed Jean was a French dude. There is a reason we often find her behavior and tactics undesirable and worthy of criticism…

  400. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    You’re kidding, right?

    Is this a parody account?

  401. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    It is, btw, not unreasonable for the oppressed to feel angry about it. Actually that is a good thing and is often the seed that grows into action.

  402. Kevin
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    sooo anyone here ready to say sorry to the kid that literally did nothing but was the old man that approached and lied to media about what happen? These kids were kneeling and standing waiting on a bus while black fake ass “church” people were yelling at children saying racist and hate crap. but accord to chef sitting bullshit he heard them chant build a wall. which turned out to be a lie. then kid got in his face… again a lie.. so …. yall still falling for this crap or ready to say he put himself in that situation cuz nothing says racist like a kid smiling.. I mean I guess if there was a reason to stop what he “thought” was something happening. why didn’t he go stand in front of the black guys and instead of the white kids with MAGA hats…. oh nevermind answered that

  403. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    Legitimate anger should not be confused with blind hate.

  404. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    And yet that’s exactly your problem.

  405. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Indeed. It should not. Yet you and Robert seem to be suffering from that *exact* confusion. You are here attributing blind hate to righteous and appropriate anger towards young men acting in a very oppressive way. You clearly cannot see why the behavior of the boys is a problem and I can only assume that it is because you can see your privilege being threatened. Too bad.

  406. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Standard response of liberal men to being called out on their bias is to list their feminist Bona fides. We all have bias and should examine ours. I don’t hate or demonize anyone. I’m not particularly moralistic. There are things I care about. It doesn’t really concern me if someone else doesn’t. But this is discourse— albeit quickly degrading and hyper personalized discourse. And it’s legitimate to challenge and talk about flaws in rhetorical strategies here. Unfortunsteky the conversation here has long since become unproductive. It’s far too small a room. It’s sad how degraded it’s become, and I apologize for my role in moving it to this sorry place.

    I didn’t most of 2015/2016 having these conversations. They are not productive for me or anyone else at this point. Sometimes you just don’t want to share space with people anymore. I’m pretty much there. We’ll see if some interesting conversation emerges again. Lately it’s just boring.

  407. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:46 pm | Permalink

    When you lose big time, feign indifference.

  408. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    What were Sandmann’s oppressive words and deeds?

  409. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Are you backing down from the Sandmann is a “little thug” position? Has it been downgraded or upgraded (not sure which) to “oppressive”?

  410. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    It’s called smiling while white. It’s kind of like smiling while being Rasheed Wallace but the consequences extend beyond game-time technical fouls into real life.

  411. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    What words and deeds did the child use to “oppress” the adult who invaded his personal space? What words and deeds did the child use to “oppress” the adults who called members of his group “niggers”, “faggots”, and “incest babies”?

  412. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    It’s being born with XY chromosomes of European origin. That’s what they hate. It’s not sustainable. No one is going for it. I love to see their kind of thinking disappear. No hate towards anyone except perhaps the worst criminal cancers among us no matter who they are. No hate needed there even as long as there is justice.

  413. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    FF– Are you asking me this questions? I accused Mr Sandman of nothing but said he and his buddies reminded me of Kavanaugh and crew. And I said assholery and fuckery are rewarded by rich white males in our culture. I think teen youth behavior often qualifies as assholery and fuckery. I’m more sympathetic to some of that kind of behavior than other kinds. I have done little on this thread other than respond to others comments about me and only a fraction of those and offer links that I found illuminating.
    Those kids didn’t remind you of how Kavanaugh described he and his buddies in high school, FF? I don’t think that comparison was a stretch, though our interpretations will no doubt be very different..

  414. Jean Henry
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    HW– https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/generation-z-is-a-liberal-tsunami/

  415. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Here is the thing Lynne. The joke about the evil anti-semite and the jew is funny because it makes fun of how stupid the logic of bigotry is. The problem in your case, as a unreformed bigot is you are not even at the level of the evil anti-semite yet. The evil anti-semite in the joke is a step ahead of you on his reformed bigot path because he is at least is able to properly judge particulars. Prove to us that you are at least capable of being the evil anti-semite in the joke. It really would be a step in the right direction.

  416. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    Those kids aren’t agreeing with with you. Most of them would puke to read what you write. When they grow to understand there is a battle not between left and right but globalists and patriots they will change their tune. It will be hard not to notice the globalists planned for the Democrats to preside over the final destruction of the country and that Trump and the patriot white hats saved everyone’s ass big time.

  417. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Nice

    https://www.axios.com/gen-z-millennials-political-views-republicans-gop-694cb689-08e3-40d4-9b10-13c1f46c6862.html

    “Yet 60% still approved of Trump’s job as president.”

  418. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    Generation Z Republicans want government to do more to solve problems, well they are going to see problems solved they didn’t know exist. Everyone will whether they already know what is going on or not. I’ve told you all along what I think will happen. With undeniable evidence of massive criminality Trump will in fact drain the swamp with an effectiveness you never imagined. Let’s see who is justified: you or I.

  419. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Are you talking to me?

    Eh.

    I said.

    Are you talking to me?

    https://www.gq.com/story/nathan-phillips-today-show-interview

  420. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    There is nothing for him to forgive. Nathan is the one who needs to apologize.

  421. Sad
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Any good Catholic would know there’s always plenty to apologize for.

  422. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    In the Democracy Now interview Nathan is asked to respond to Sandmann’s statement about how he claims he wanted to diffuse the situation by remaining calm and motionless. Nathan rejected Sandmann’s explanation calling Sandmann:

    “Copycat.”

    Nathan describes “the same faces on the youth in those crowds in DC was the same of the youth surround the young black woman who was trying to get an education….The same faces as the folks doing the lynchings.”

    Same faces.

    Nathan is 63. I am not going to hold it against him but he did not understand that the boys were doing school spirit chants that are easily recognizable by anyone who has any familiarity to all-boy catholic schools or high school sporting events in general. Nathan does not understand that the boys were expressing a part of their culture in their performances. Yet, Nathan expects a 15 year old child to have any clue what the hell he is doing, culturally or otherwise, and how it relates to the situation the child is in, in that moment, when he is beating a drum within inches of his face. He expects an apology for what exactly?

    He doesn’t just want an apology. Nathan thinks what he did was an act of courage protecting the first amendment rights of the black israelites which he seems to want to suggest that the Covington boys were trying to take away. LOL.

    There is more but I will stop now.

    In my opinion, there is enough evidence that I feel comfortable calling Nathan Phillips a fraud who enjoys being in the spotlight and furthering his political agenda no matter who gets in the way. Did the EMU students really even tell him “to go back to the reservation” two years ago? At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if actually made everything up.

    Nathan, in my opinion, is a horrible spokesperson for his own worthy causes protecting and uplifting native americans because he lies. He lies. He lies.

  423. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know what to say, FF. I think you are a lost cause at this point. I don’t need to convince you that those boys were in the wrong. I only need most other people to see it. They do. If you can’t see how you are supporting that kind of bullying behavior or that it is bullying behavior in the first place, you never will. Hopefully you will not be like so many other white men who are also having a real hard time dealing with their loss of privilege so they take it out on themselves or others. I have no desire to make it easier for you. I don’t care about *your* opinion of me because it simply does not matter. Good Day.

  424. iRobert
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

    Sad, I have plenty of criticisms of EOS, FF and HW I could talk about. But I’m most offended by people who slander and misrepresent other people’s positions.

    There have been many times when I’ve seen something EOS, FF, or HW has said that I completely disagree with, but then I see Jean slander them and misrepresent what they’ve said. After seeing that, I usually decide not to add my criticisms to the mess. I don’t want to team up with someone who conducts themself like that, or even appear to be okay with it. I don’t give that behavior a pass.

    The very essence of what racist white “supremacists” do is slander and misrepresent everyone else. It’s deranged and disgusting.

  425. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    You don’t know what to say when somebody asks you why you said something?

    I wish you well on your spiritual and intellectual journey toward becoming a reformed bigot. It might seem far away now, but with a bit of honesty someday you will reach the same level as the evil-anti semite in the joke. From there, with hard work and self reflection, you even make it to be an Archie Bunker type. Life is short. Keep trying.

    #becausewhiteboys
    #becauseredhat
    #becausecatholic
    #becausebigot

  426. Lynne
    Posted January 24, 2019 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    FF, I said, “Good Day.” Sir!!!

  427. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 12:44 am | Permalink

    Question: Why did you accuse a child of being a creepy-oppressive-little-thug?

    Answer: I said, Good Day. Sir!!!

  428. Sad
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    This isn’t over FF.

    https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2019/01/24/kentucky-bishop-no-maga-hats-worn-covington-catholic-students/2669250002/

  429. EOS
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    iRobert,

    If I were a Democrat, I would be less concerned about the false statements made by Jean and Lynne on a local blog, and more concerned every time the MSM is exposed for doing the same. The continual lies of the media have done far more to drive thinking persons to positions exactly opposite of what is reported. Information spreads too fast. Smart phones capture video which is shared in real time. Democrats thought that if they controlled the media outlets, they could fabricate any story they wanted. But ever more frequently the truth is becoming known.

  430. Sad
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Luckily the same mechanisms work to expose the drivel oozing out of Fox.

    The November elections show which way the wind is blowing. 2020 will be the cherry on top.

    I’m glad to see the catholic leadership continues to apologize for the incident in DC. And even go further to question how anyone pro – life could in good conscience support Trump.

  431. iRobert
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Sadly, EOS, I agree with you. I just don’t talk about my disgust with the media here because the media isn’t here to receive my opinion.

    I have had to deal with media people a few times in my life and I have usually been very disgusted. However, I must say, there are still several investigative reporters I have great respect for, mostly for their hard work and doggedness.

    I comment here on this blog about the things that disgust me about this blog and what happens here.

    By the way, you shouldn’t ignore the most disgusting of them all, Fox News. It damages your credibility to give them a pass. Fox News ushered in this whole new age of MSM bullshitting. Fox News was created to manipulate. At least CBS, NBC, and ABC were once actual news sources at one time. Sure, that’s been decades since we’ve seen that, but you get my point.

    Anyway, rest assured, I make my disgust known to anyone I meet who works in MSM, though those moments do not come often. I also share my observations with anybody I know who’s been suckered by the BS of the MSM.

  432. iRobert
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Admit it, EOS, as a Republican you would much rather have Jean representing the Democratic Party than you would a decent person who doesn’t slander and misrepresent the opinions of others, right? I mean, loons like those are so much easier to beat.

    If Trump has to face a thoughtful, sane Democratic challenger with thoughtful, sane positions, and a Democratic Party with a thoughtful, sane message, he will likely lose. His best hope for winning a general re-election is no have deranged nuts like Jean guiding the message of his challenger and the Dem Party.

    If your opponents are clearly nuts, it doesn’t really matter how lofty their supposed goals, or how miserable you may have failed. People will just default to what Mars more sense to them.

    Right now, the MSM (minus Fox) does what it can to manipulate people’s opinions in favor of the Dems generally. It’s working for the most part. Now, if the MSM started using the absurd terms and notions that Jean does, I guarantee they’d drive everyone straight into supporting Trump.

  433. iRobert
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    I thought I typed. “People will just default to what makes more sense to them.” but autocorrect knew better and inserted “Mars” for where I typed “makes.”

    It does look like some people will be opting for Mars soon though. I can’t say as I blame them.

  434. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    I did not notice it before but Sandmann actually makes eye contact with his friend and gives a “cut it out” hand gesture, while Nathan was drumming in his face, which seems to be encourage Sandmann’s friend, who is the middle of responding to Nathan’s friend who yelled “go back to Europe”. Sandmann seemed to be gesturing to his friend to not retaliate to their provocations. It is a piece of evidence that Sandmann was sincere when he claimed in the video that he really believed that Nathan was trying to provoke him.

    How are those talks about the appropriate way to behave, in this type of situation going with your children, Mark?

  435. Sad
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    FF is upset that children are being brought into political debates and then promptly brings children into political debates.

    Hopeless.

  436. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Using children (especially children) as political pawns in an attempt to further your political agenda is called gross.

    Discussing issues with your children is called parenting.

    I know you think you are being cute, Sad, but you are a person who is extremely vague with your concepts. It makes it very difficult to discuss anything with you.

    Mark said he is going to discuss the situation with his kids. Sandmann signaling to his friend to avoid retaliation when the Native American man yelled “white people, go back to Europe” was a part of the situation. I missed this part of the situation. Maybe Mark missed this part of the situation too. Obviously, there was some sarcasm mixed in their because I think Mark mis-apprehended almost everything in this situation but I don’t mind being called sarcastic. Mark’s article which has not really been updated in any meaningful way should be ridiculed.

  437. anony
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    hell yeah dude keep watching those videos

  438. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 25, 2019 at 5:44 pm | Permalink
    “Using children (especially children) as political pawns in an attempt to further your political agenda is called gross.“

    It’s totally acceptable to separate them from their families and imprison them en mass in de facto concentration camps then adopt them out to American Christian families and/or potential sex traffickers.

    FB and his double standards…

  439. Sad
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    FF is willing to ignore that the children in DC were brought in to be political pawns in the abortion debate. And that they were wearing MAGA hats to advertise that they were political pawns for a hateful political regime.

    Hopeless.

  440. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    Jean. You are either very dumb or thoroughly dishonest. I will stick with dumb because I am trying to be a more generous person.

    Newsflash: I appreciated, several months ago, that you pointing out that you had a friend who had a lot of knowledge about adoption services and I also appreciated you further pointing out the real problems and potential problems of separation at the border, which might lead to subsequent adoptions, which in turn might lead to the abuse of children. What sort of person would not be concerned with child trafficking? What you describe is obviously part of a problem that further highlights a very real need for some kind of immigration reform.

    What is your solution to this complicated problem Bozo?

  441. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    Are you suggesting the trip to DC was mandatory for the Covington children?

    Listen to Sandmann in his interview. The kid would almost surely destroy you in a debate and I am assuming you are an adult.

  442. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    I am trying to wrap my mind around how Jean and Sad could come up with responses that are so confused. Is the source of the confusion that you think I, a few posts up, am accusing Mark of using his children as political pawns? I am not. Mark discussing the situation with his kids is parenting. I am accusing Nathan Phillips of attempting to use the Covington children as political pawns by attempting to provoke a negative reaction from the Covington boys and then to lie about what happened for political gain.

    On the parenting topic. I have shown my children the videos as well as Mark’s article. I have asked them to think about their behavior in a similar circumstance as well as to ask them to think about whether or not Mark’s article is morally right or wrong. I have also asked them to think about why an otherwise intelligent person, such as Mark, could get so many things so wrong.

    Final thoughts on parenting…. Mark’s parents live near Covington? What do mom and pops think about your little article? I am going out on a limb here, but, like any good parent, I am guessing they would like to have an uncomfortable talk with their little boy.

  443. Anonymous
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Hoping for this cold snap to break so that FF can get out of his room and get some fresh air. It’s getting a bit stale.

  444. Sad
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    FF with his children-

    See how those black men are saying dirty naughty things? That’s very bad.

    See how the white boy takes his shirt off and jumps around in front of the black men taunting and mocking them? That’s what I’d like you to do. I would be so proud of you my little flakes. It would warm my heart.

    You’re right about one thing FF. This whole incident is very confusing for me. I have no problem admitting that.

  445. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Your assessments are all wrong here , Sad. My conversations with my children were nothing like what you described.

    You don’t have to admit anything. Most of us already know you are very confused person.

  446. Sad
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    if this was a teachable moment FF what lessons did you want your children to learn rom watching the videos?

    Did you let them read the comments section here? Did they ask why you called that woman a bozo?

  447. iRobert
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    You’re making your children read Mark’s blog? I’m sorry, Frosted Flakes, but that’s sick.

  448. Sad
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    FF’s children must really love the comment section.

    He’s going to have a hard time when they get reprimanded at school for calling the other kids Bozo.

  449. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Haha. Only this one time, I assure you, iRobert.

  450. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    I am not proud of calling Jean a Bozo but what am I supposed to do? She made something up. Maybe she will be more careful about misrepresenting the views of others, if she feels ashamed about her tactics.

  451. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    FF—It’s morally inconsistent to claim one cares about children generally and ethical treatment of children specifically and support GOP policies, especially those of this administration. 25% of US children grow up in poverty with unequitible access to education, healthcare and most other pathways to opportunity and overall well being. That’s largely the result of GOP policy positions.

  452. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Going in the right direction with President Trump in reality.

    “Poverty data released by the U.S. Census Bureau on September 12, 2018 show roughly 12.8 million America children lived in poverty in 2017, about 450,000 fewer than in 2016. The national child poverty rate declined from 18.0 percent in 2016 to 17.5 percent in 2017, though the decrease was not statistically significant.”

  453. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    FF — as I have stated before, I am for immigration reform. Im confident we would support almost opposite reforms however. A liberal legal visiting worker program would greatly improve conditions for workers here and abroad. A more open and dependable system for legal immigration would be a boon to our economy and culture. I don’t care where the immigrants come from or what religion they practice or what race they are or how much formal education they have had, because I’m not a bigot. I believe we have a responsibility as a nation to offer consistent policies for immigration and worker visas as well as reliable implementation of those policies to provide the best possible user experience for immigrants, migrant workers, and their employers and sponsors.

  454. Bob
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    The story is that 12.8 million American kids live in poverty, dicknut.

  455. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    HW— that’s impressive positive change. Thanks Obama.

  456. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Border policy and its overall effect on child-trafficking is up for debate.

    That you would assume that people who disagree with you on border policy belong to the class of people who do not care about reducing child trafficking is a convenient position that has very little to do with anything. Such a position might make you feel better about yourself but at bottom it is a non-sense/non-argument.

    Now you want to spin off into vague generalities about Democrats loving kids more–No thanks.

    Deal with the truth of this situation: A great many of you are willing to demonize children, by lying about them, because it helps your political agenda. I have no interest in having a fake moral vanity contest with you.

  457. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I believe in a much bigger wall but also a much bigger door. We might not be that far away from each other as you think.

  458. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    That’s been true for a long time, “Bob” you phony little part-time character you. Now go back to just obsessing on my dick all the time.

    Obama had to rely on government assistance to improve child poverty. The Trump era has seen welfare replaced with jobs and all the benefits that come with parents being able to earn a living.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/10/child-poverty-rate-record-low/542058/

  459. Bob
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    The Pudlord owns you. Like Pelosi owns Trump’s fat, blotchy, Depends-clad ass. Watching your flop sweat pool as the Trump kingdom crumbles is almost going to be worth it. Everyone hates you, fuckface.

  460. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    FF– I was referring to Trump’s overall border policy enforcement strategies and their effect on children, not just trafficking per se although he used that as excuse among other horrors. Nice attempt to pivot, but as I said, one can’t make a reasonable argument from a point of concern for the welfare of children from the standing of support for the current GOP platform or the President.

  461. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    FF the wall is unnecessary and has always been shown to be an ineffective deterrent. Money could be better spent elsewhere if one is concerned about the welfare of children or sensible immigration reform..

  462. Lynne
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    Kids who look at that video and cant see why Nick Sandmann was acting terrible risk trouble in the future. They may act similarly and then not understand why most people think they are rotten little shits. Luckily children also get messages from their peers so there is hope for FF’s kids.

  463. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    I am using the term “wall” as a general term that can include tech. Physical barriers are just one aspect. Are they the most effective deterrents per dollar? Almost certainly not. As a society we decide to do a lot of things that are quite expensive. We do some good things that are expensive and the money could have been spent better elsewhere. What is your point? Your approach is fake. The only reason we are talking about this now is because you accused me of not really caring about children because of some stuff you made up and blah, blah, blah.

    Let’s talk about anything except the topic of this thread, right?

    Have fun sitting on your perch and pretending like Democrats are somehow morally superior. If, FF really cared for children FF would have supported Hillary, FF doesn’t support Hillary, so FF hates children.

    It’s a joke. Your syllogisms are silly. The irony for me is that you are critical of logic, saying you do not believe in logic, but deploy logic constantly in such a fraudulent way.

    What is you point and what does your point have to do with Nathan Phillips attempting provoke children and then lying about it? What does what you are talking about have to do with Mark’s article being mostly bullshit?

    Those are the two things I am interested in talking about in this thread. I am being critical of Nathan and Mark. Defend them if you want but it makes no sense for me to defend myself against made up accusations that have nothing to do with what I am currently talking about. The double-standard objection you always offer is just blah, blah, blah, baloney. You want to talk about border policy now?

    Jesus….

  464. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    Please tell me what words and deeds Sandmann did to justify calling him a creepy-oppressive-little-thug-rotten-peice-of-shit?

  465. Sad
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    FF if you were able to use those videos as a “teachable moment” what was the lesson you wanted to have your children walk away with?

  466. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    It ended up being more of a discussion about the importance of context, perception, but mostly a lesson in fake news. I first presented it from a pro-Nathan perspective without context and it was really easy for us all to come to similar visceral conclusions like Lynne had….I had the same emotional response as Lynne at first….We all did……Then we added context from the other videos and talked about how context and research changes the judgments we make. It was not like the Covington boys were perfect but they did fine given the confusing circumstances that the adults created. But I pointed out a few bad things the Covington boys did…. I warned them about interacting with adults that are filming them and insulting them at the same time…I warned them not to believe a news story and jump to a conclusion…I told them it is better to do a little research than to just to believe something that pops up on their phone.

    The big takeaways were a) don’t believe everything you read on the internet; and, b) be cautious when you find yourself in a weird circumstance when adults are trying to insult and provoke you.

    Specifically regarding Sandmann. I said it would be ok to walk away but it is also ok to just stand where you are standing.

    A lot was pretty obvious to them but they are also not blinded by bias like many people here…

  467. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Or they are and it’s just the same bias as yours and so you can’t see it. That’s pretty much the definition of bias right? It’s just a blind spot. We all have them. Children learn by example.

    Ive never been very impressed by parents who think they are good at it. They seem to fundamentally underestimate the challenges of the job.

  468. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

    Ps FF you don’t get to direct the conversation. Or what people respond to or don’t in your posts. I’m sure we’d all like to be able to demand that. You’re the only one who seems to think that’s reasonable to do. You even seem to hold the expectation that we’ll do as asked, and so resent when we don’t.

  469. Jean Henry
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

    Ps your inability to see the limitations of any individuals’ logic to determine truth is not testimony to how much more right you are, but just how inappropriately certain you are . In other words, it’s your limitation not your advantage .

  470. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 26, 2019 at 11:57 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    Regarding bias: The Covington boys were either harrassing the Black Israelites or they were not. The Covington boys were either gearing up for a violent confrontation with the Black Israelites or they were not. The Covington boys either chanted “build the wall” or they did not. The Covington boys either approached Nathan or they did not. The Covington boys either surrounded Nathan or they did not. Sandmann either approached Nathan or he did not. Sandmann either stepped in Nathan’s supposed path or he did not. Nathan either had multiple paths he could have take or he did not. There was either space to walk around Sandmann or there was not.

    When you pass a certain threshold of evidence whether or not bias is coming to play is irrelevant when examining certain questions.

  471. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    “Ive never been very impressed by parents who think they are good at it. They seem to fundamentally underestimate the challenges of the job.”

    This is a statement I very much agree with in general. But who cares though? What is your motivation behind this statement? I have not given the mm.com a community an assessment of my parenting skills have I? No, I have not. You are just trying to put me down in an indirect way. It is weak of you, Jean.

  472. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 12:12 am | Permalink

    Regarding the idea that I want to direct the conversation.

    I do want to explain why I do not want to engage in certain topics and not others right now. You can call that directing the conversation if you want but I am telling you I do not want to engage in a conversation about border policy in this thread. The only reason I responded to your comments about border policy is because they were directed at me and more importantly because you falsely attributed a position to me about border policy. Why did you falsely attribute a position to me from out of nowhere Jean? It seems like you were just doing it so you could give the impression that you were making some sort of point. You were not making a point, however. You were just wasting my time.

  473. Sad
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 12:18 am | Permalink

    The day was supposed to be about the Indigenous Peoples March and The March For Life but all anyone has been talking about is the victimization of white privileged males by the corrupt media.

    The lesson is crystal clear.

  474. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 12:23 am | Permalink

    Regarding logic:

    Not everybody uses logic like a mentally disabled psychopath, but you do, Jean. If you want to believe that your fraudulent use of logic is somehow to my disadvantage then I guess that is like your opinion, man. The truth is we all suffer when you go into bozo the clown mode.

  475. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Sad:

    “The first casualty of war is Truth”

  476. Jean Henry
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    FF– You actually give directions to others about what they should or should not comment on. You give them assignments. I was not talking about what you personally choose to address. Your conceit is boundless, as is your condescension. It’s a limiting factor on your perspective for which your intelligence can not compensate.

  477. Posted January 27, 2019 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    I haven’t had any of my many children read Mark’s blog. Yesterday it was because we were busy in Huntington Woods at the Drag Queen Story Hour. I was surprised I didn’t see Jean there with her kid. It should be mandatory that parents bring their children to this. Maybe then at least their children will not be so narrow minded.

    Drag Queen Storytime draws small but noisy protest to Huntington Woods

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep.com/amp/2691203002

    Mark, do you want to carpool with me and all our kids to the next one?

  478. iRobert
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    When I say “all our kids” I’m not suggesting Mark and I have had many children together. We’ve never been a couple actually. But he has two children and I have several more. I just meant “all our kids” in the sense that “our” meant all of mine and all of his. I’m apologize for any confusion this may have caused.

  479. I’m apologize
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    That isn’t funny, iRobert. It just shows what an insensitive privileged white (straight) male you are. You’re never funny. If you want to understand how comedy works, ask Jean. She’s read some articles about it.

  480. Jean Henry
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    IRobert— there’s a drag queen story hour in Ypsi next week. I’ll be there. My people, you are right. I’ve known Maxi for 30 years. My kids have grown up with him as an elder/mother. That doesn’t make me a better mother, but i do think it’s good for the kids to have many people they can’t count on in their lives. Because I know I’m imperfect/inadequate on my own. And that’s ok.

    I’m imagining FF ‘s right wing parenting is guided something like this: https://mobile.twitter.com/bbctwo/status/1088749658254528517

  481. Jean Henry
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    *can not can’t.
    Autocorrect is killing me…

  482. iRobert
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    We should have a gathering if the Maytards at the Ypsi drag queen story hour next week.

  483. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 27, 2019 at 6:18 pm | Permalink

    JH,

    I would be willing to bet most of the assignments I have tried to give to you were a response to you mis-assigning a position onto someone else.

  484. Posted January 28, 2019 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Hello. This is Mark. I am sick at home today, in bed. I have a cold. I hope you all are well and happy.

    -Mark

  485. Sad
    Posted January 28, 2019 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    FF here’s a teaching aid for you.

    https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/why-both-sides-of-a-story-arent-enough

  486. Jean Henry
    Posted January 28, 2019 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    iRobert— please don’t ever introduce yourself to me IRL, especially in front of my kids. I have no interest in meeting you

  487. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 28, 2019 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    I don’t have time to read past the first half of the article right now, Sad.

    Thanks for thinking of me, but the first half of the article is garbage.

  488. M wilkie
    Posted February 6, 2019 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    When are you going to retract this garbage? Even the fin celebrities have. The truth is in the numerous videos that have come out showing what actually happened.
    You should crawl under a rock and beg those kid forgiveness.

    https://youtu.be/3-pFMZaw5f0

  489. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 7, 2019 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Sad,

    I had a chance to read your article. I am going to downgrade it from garbage to toxic waste that needs to be disposed of properly. Before I tell you what I find so objectionable in the “Teaching Tolerance” article, may I ask: What about the article do you find useful?

  490. Sadd
    Posted February 9, 2019 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Sandman to sue Phillips!

    It’s the context FF.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/covington-students-lawyer-nathan-phillips-will-be-sued-first-round-of-lawsu

  491. Show Me
    Posted February 11, 2019 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Looks like the truth is coming out, as the record of the entire provocation by the Black Hebrew Israelites and Nathan Philips ended up harassing some high school students who came to Washington to participate in a March for Life event.
    It doesn’t appear that the boys were looking for trouble and tried to avoid provoking anyone.
    I think a lawyer for Sandmann, the student on film, is sending letters to fifty different people and organizations that made derogatory, even violently hostile threats against Sandmann and also are probably entering into some kind of action in the courts with respect to Nathan Phillips. .
    It appears from what is available publicly, that Nathan Phillips wasn’t telling the whole story.
    With reference to this post by Mark on the Daily Signal, I think he should consider making a retraction.

  492. Jean Henry
    Posted February 12, 2019 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    I don’t think Mark is likely to post a retraction because a conservative media site is driving traffic to his site. Nothing libelous was written. Pissing off conservatives and getting more traffic sounds like a win-win with zero risk.

  493. EOS
    Posted February 12, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    @Show Me,

    There is no video evidence to corroborate Nathan’s story. Mark did post a picture of a fake news story from the Detroit Free Press, after his initial biased post. The Free Press quoted the false claims of Nathan. As you can see, no one reports what actually happened, they merely report the story line that furthers their agenda to the greatest degree. That’s what they do.

  494. wobblie
    Posted February 12, 2019 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Sandman’s attorneys are clearly in this for the publicity. Unless they are suing Nathan in small claims court, this suit will never see the inside of a court room. The first rule any real lawyer learns about civil litigation is, are they collectable. Wasting the courts time on a suit in which no real damages can be proven and none collected will not please any Judge, and they will bounce this after the publicity dies down. After all Nathan simply exercised his rights as did Sandman, it was other folks who took video and made it go viral–can’t blame Nathan for that.

  495. Lynne
    Posted February 12, 2019 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    No but you CAN blame Sandmann for allowing his lawyers to harass others. This just does not look good. The court of public opinion has different rules than it used to I am afraid, mostly because those who are not white and male have more of a voice than they used to have. I think this is a good thing.

  496. EOS
    Posted February 12, 2019 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie,

    They are not suing Nathan. They are suing all the celebrities who tweeted derogatory remarks about the teenagers and all the news agencies that blamed the teenagers for actions they clearly did not commit and who have refused to make retractions. The teens are not public figures and the bar for making a case for libel and slander is substantially lower. I think they’ll collect substantial amounts and get a public apology to boot.

  497. Anonymous
    Posted February 12, 2019 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Untrue.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/covington-students-lawyer-nathan-phillips-will-be-sued-first-round-of-lawsu

    “February 8, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – One of the attorneys representing Covington High School student Nick Sandmann and his parents confirmed to LifeSiteNews that Native American activist Nathan Phillips, and some of the others who have received notices from the attorneys, “will be sued.”

    Lin Wood, an Atlanta-based lawyer, told LifeSite yesterday that Phillips’ “lies and false accusations” against Sandmann and the other Covington students are “well documented.”

    He also said they would be filing the first round of lawsuits “within two weeks.” Todd V. McMurtry, a Ft. Mitchell, Ky attorney, is also representing Sandmann and his parents. Doug Schloemer, a Ft. Mitchell, Ky attorney, represents a number of other students and Robert Barnes, a California attorney, is also representing families and students of Covington High School. “

  498. Sad
    Posted February 14, 2019 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    FF was right. The children behaved in a “ laudatory “ manner.

    I quit!

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/investigation-finds-covington-students-did-not-instigate-confrontation-41748

  499. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 14, 2019 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    The boys were not perfect but I think they behaved pretty good considering their age and the confusing circumstances that Nathan and the Black Israelites created.

    I think Nathan should get sued. He is not too old for a wake up call.

    I think media outlets should also get sued. I don’t want to make any of you poor for being idiots but people need to wake up out their slumbers.

    BTW, I am sorry I did not get around to criticizing the disaster of article from Teaching Tolerance. I got busy and a lot of other stuff came up. That crappy article is crap made of pure gold. I promise to offer my opinions when I have a chance.

  500. kjc
    Posted February 14, 2019 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

    so grateful a forum is still available for FF.

  501. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 14, 2019 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    If I understand you correctly I think you sort of have a point, kjc.

    I admit, I have definitely been crossing the line into rudeness territory. (Insulting the host and all that.) I might be wrong, but I am thinking it is better to be rude inorder to provoke a response/discussion here and now, rather than to just sit back politely, watching otherwise intelligent people, shut their eyes and plug they ears while they say “la-la-la”.

  502. iRobert
    Posted February 14, 2019 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Jean, are you suggesting Mark has no integrity?

  503. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 14, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    I am pretty fucking sure it would not be as difficult to win a suit for libel here as some people seem to think–even after bracketing the fact that Sandmann is a fucking minor! The lawyers do not need to prove their was malicious intent. NEGLIGENCE is the minimum threshold that needs to be passed. Jean can say whatever she wants about “libel” but her judgments here, once again, are not in touch with reality, imo.

    When I grow up I want to write false statements about minors and then stubbornly refuse to retract those statements. Stubborness is often an ingredient of integrity, but just because someone is acting with stubbornness does not in anyway mean that person is acting with integrity.

    I am curious to see how this plays out…I like to think that some good can come out of this. Sometimes it requires a shock from the outside to wake someone out their slumber. Better to just wake oneself up but whatever it takes I suppose?

    Can we at least get a GULP?

  504. iRobert
    Posted February 15, 2019 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Jean: “iRobert— please don’t ever introduce yourself to me IRL, especially in front of my kids. I have no interest in meeting you”

    I appreciate your thoughtfulness in bringing up the very unsettling possibility that some of us here might by chance be in some proximity of you at some moment. I give you my sincerest pledge never to introduce myself to you under any circumstances. We should probably ask Mark to join us in this pledge. He’s the weakest link here.

  505. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 21, 2019 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    “[The good news is, in some videos, you can hear people calling out these young, referring to them as a racist mob.]”–Mark

    Yeah that is good news, if you think the children are in fact a “racist mob” and that Sandmann is a “racist” displaying racism.

    The threshold for libel in Michigan is not malicious intent it is negligence.

  506. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    I thought Baynard finally got smart and took down the comments. Good to see they are back. I hope Sandmann’s lawyer nails Bark and several commenters here. He was on saying they have two years to sue everybody who defamed his client; at least hundreds of outlets if not thousands.

  507. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Anothe whitey exploiting POC to make a buck.

    Cheers.

  508. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    Wrong. Nathan and the media and you tried to exploit “whitey” to make Trump go away.

  509. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    Just like the “Smollett Lynching” you failed spectacularly.

  510. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    We’ll do better next time.

  511. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Will it repair the damage you did to yourself though, let alone do anything to Trump? Nothing you have tried has worked.

  512. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    I’ve always thought Trump was his own worst enemy.

    I agree with you HW about the collusion. How would a moron like Trukp be able to pull anything like that off?

  513. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Funny how you change the subject to opinions when you get skunked with facts. “HW’s beating my ass again, let me just say something offensive to get him off track.”

  514. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    I enjoy your ass beatings HW.

    I’m unique in that regard.

    Please insult me and humiliate me.

  515. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    I suspected the same thing about the disabled comments, HW.

    Apparently I was wrong. The wake up call has not come yet.

  516. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Of course you two thought the comments going down was a conspiracy.

    Another liberal trying to stifle your insightful comments.

  517. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    No Sad. I did not think my comments were being stifled by liberal forces.

    You don’t understand much of anything.

  518. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    I really don’t understand what you mean when you keep talking about “ the wake-up call”?

    You mean like at the hotel?

  519. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    You really don’t have any idea what the phrase “wake up call” means?

    Try google. Try thinking.

  520. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    You think something is going to happen that will Make Mark Maynard renounce his political allegiances? Maybe become a Trump supporter?

    I’m guilty though. I really do have a hard time understanding FF and HW. What do you believe? You never really seem to be able to express it.

    My take away is always that you two think we’re heading in the right direction under President Trump? Is that correct?

  521. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Sad,

    I am using a commonly understood phrase in a very ordinary way. Look at the context of the discussion and think through the things you find mysterious. You are not a little baby. You have a brain. Figure some of this stuff out on your own.

    This Goo-Goo-Gah-Gah act you do is not cute.

  522. Sad
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    It’s just so ridiculous that you think anyone is going to get a wake up call.

    Oh well.

    Generally people don’t change. Did you get a wake up call and radically change your perspective on things?

    Do you really think anything you, or I or HW says matters?

    Oh yeah, you do don’t you?

  523. Frosted Flakes
    Posted February 23, 2019 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    I think I told the mm.com community before that I “won the mega-millions” of insider information once in my life. Being privy to the truth behind that highly publicized event and then comparing the media narrative, changed my outlook on the truthfulness of media. I will be forever skeptical after that experience. It was a big wake-up call. Normal people have little wake-up calls all the time. Living life, imo, is in large part a personal quest for truth, wherein you are trying to wake yourself up from the misapprehensions and illusions of your own dream.

    You sound like a nihilist, Sad. A lot of people on mm.com are nihilists. I choose to not live my life that way.

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