What the fuck is happening in Florida?

Claiming that ballots (ostensibly cast by Democrats) had been “forged,” the President of the United States declared this morning that the counting of votes in Florida should stop immediately, and that that Rick Scott and Ron DeSantis should be declared the winners of their respective races. This, Donald Trump reasoned, was the right thing to do, as both men were ahead in the vote count on election night.

It should also be noted, however, that Donald Trump has offered no evidence that ballots cast in Florida had been, to use his terminology, “massively infected.” Furthermore, if the counting of votes were to be stopped now, it would be in violation of numerous state and federal laws, seeing as how there are still ballots that have yet to be counted. Most notably, people serving in the U.S. military, in accordance with our laws, have until November 16 to have their mail-in ballots counted, assuming they were postmarked on, or before, Election Day. [That’s right, not only did he cancel plans to visit Arlington today, on Veterans’ Day, but he suggested that we disenfranchise members of the U.S. military serving abroad.]

I know it must be confusing to our President, who has a limited grasp of our democracy works, but we have laws governing how elections are managed, and those laws, as Florida’s Democratic candidate for Governor Andrew Gillum said yesterday, require that “we count every vote.” And, in extremely tight races, like these two in Florida, there are even laws mandating recounts.

Here, with a bit of the background as to what’s happening right now in Florida, is an excerpt from FiveThirtyEight.com.

…In Florida, Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson initially appeared to have conceded on election night (his opponent, Republican Gov. Rick Scott, also claimed victory) but reversed course after continued vote-counting in Broward and Palm Beach counties narrowed Scott’s lead to just 0.15 percentage points, or 12,562 votes. That’s important because, under Florida law, any election within half a percentage point margin triggers a machine recount, and then, after that, if an election is within a quarter of a percentage point, it triggers a manual recount (where all ballots are retabulated by hand). On Saturday, the secretary of state officially ordered the machine recount, which must be completed by Thursday, Nov. 15. However, the real drama will likely come if there’s a hand recount, and whether we learn if the unusually high number of undervotes in the Senate race in Broward County are the result of a machine error. If so, Nelson may have a shot. If not, Scott is probably safe, as recounts rarely overturn election results…

Republican former Rep. Ron DeSantis was declared the next governor of Florida on election night, but now the same delay in vote-counting that tightened the Florida Senate race has brought the gubernatorial contest within recount range as well. On Saturday, DeSantis led Democratic Tallahassee Mayor Andrew Gillum by 0.41 percentage points; therefore, the secretary of state ordered a machine recount. While Gillum has taken back his concession and the AP and ABC have both retracted their projections, this remains a long shot for Democrats. A reversal of a 33,684-vote margin would be unprecedented in modern times. We’ll find out for sure on Nov. 15…

It should also be noted that this is not something that we’re just dealing with in Florida. As I’m writing this, there are still 17 races that are too close to call… 2 for the Senate, 13 for the House, and 2 for governorships. [There were still three Senate races that had been undecided, up until a few hours ago, when the Arizona race was called for Democrat Kyrsten Sinema, the first non-Republican to win a Senate seat in that state in 30 years.]

So, as Florida election officials work through the process, doing what they need to do under the law, our President is echoing the unfounded claims of conspiracy theorists like Rick Scott, who told Fox News a few days ago that, “Senator Nelson is trying to commit fraud to win this election.” As a Florida judge said today, after urging everyone involved to tone down the rhetoric, there is no evidence of fraud in Broward County… As for why this judge may have urged people to tone down the rhetoric, let’s not forget that it was just a few weeks ago that a Florida man mailed over one dozen explosive devices to individuals publicly accused by Donald Trump and his supporters of conspiring against our country.

For what it’s worth, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) says that they have no open investigations into any claims of potential fraud. That doesn’t mean, however, that people on the right won’t continue to make unfounded accusations, claiming that Democrats are attempting to “steal” the election. As we saw just before the election, when Republicans lied about a caravan of South American terrorists headed to our border, there is no line the Republicans will not cross in hopes of retaining power. [Speaking of the caravan, isn’t it weird how it just kind of magically disappeared once we’d cast our votes.]

And it’s not just the likes of Donald Trump and Rick Scott floating these ridiculous ideas. They’re being supported at every turn by the bought-and-paid-for conservative propaganda network. Here, to give you a sense of what we’re up against, is a clip from Wayne Allyn Root’s most recent column in the Las Vegas Review-Journal.

…Liberals try to win over voters with “fake news.” When that fails, there’s always “fake votes.” I believe Democrats are stealing elections with fraud — primarily illegal aliens voting. And those elections they can’t steal, they still won’t accept the outcome. Suddenly boxes of votes appear, from only Democrat-controlled districts, with primarily Democrat votes, days after the election.

Wasn’t this the “fake worry” of Democrats for two years now? They were shocked and worried about election integrity and “Russian interference” that never happened. They made it up out of thin air. Actually, Hillary and the DNC paid for it, while spy agencies from Russia, the United Kingdom and Germany created false stories to steal the presidency from Trump.

But now we have real election interference. Many Republican voters in this country don’t believe there is election integrity…

It’s worth pointing out, I think, that the Las Vegas Review-Journal is owned by Trump supporter Sheldon Adelson, whose wife, Miriam Adelson, for some inexplicable reason, will be receiving a Presidential Medal of Freedom on Friday. [When asked about this today, Craig Holman, a government affairs lobbyist at Public Citizen, said, “The Medal of Freedom has always been awarded based on service, as the award is intended. Trump uniquely envisions government service as a business for self-enrichment, and so it comes as no surprise at all that Trump would award an otherwise honorable medal to Adelson on the grounds of who gives him the most money.”]

It’s terrifying, right? We’ve apparently learned nothing over theses past two years, listening to Donald Trump constantly go on and on about how he would have won the popular vote in 2016, if not for millions upon millions of illegal aliens crossing the border to vote for Clinton. We knew it was a lie. Trump even quietly shut down the presidential commission that was going to prove it to us. But we just keep on allowing the lies to be said… We keep allowing this nonsense to propagate, and, in so doing, we’re making it all the more likely that, come 2020, when Donald Trump is defeated, he makes the claim that the election had been stolen by the Democrats, the globalist Jews, illegal aliens, radical feminists, and terrorists, or some combination of the aforementioned groups. And we cannot allow that to happen. We need to stop this now, and stop it decisively. We cannot keep going down the slippery slope toward civil war.

OK, with that, I will let Virginia Senator Mark Warner have the last word: “If the President actually cared about election integrity, he wouldn’t be tweeting out conspiracy theories, he would tell his Administration to quit blocking the bipartisan Secure Elections Act that we’ve been trying to pass all year.

Speaking of attempts to address election integrity in the United States, it’s worth mentioning that the Democrats came out today with a statement, saying that, once they take back the gavel in the House, the first bill they vote on will be one that strengthens the Voting Rights Act, establishes automatic voter registration, takes the power to redistrict away from state legislatures, giving it instead to independent commissions. The Republicans will never agree to it, but I like that, for a chance, we’re on the offensive, fighting for something positive that we believe in, instead of just running against Trumpism. This is a good thing.

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146 Comments

  1. iRobert
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    Thank you for writing all this out and posting it. I was thinking about sitting down for a couple hours and trying to do something similar, after trying unsuccessfully to get HW to calm down with few words.

    I will ad though, Democrats will not be allowed to take the seats in Florida or Georgia. Those state governments are completely controlled by Republicans who will see to that. As a last resort, they will have the Surpreme Court shut down any attempt to include and count every ballot. They also know losing control of the election process in these states will almost certainly cost them the 2020 presidential.

  2. iRobert
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 6:35 am | Permalink

    By the way, Mark, if Trump gets one strong Republican challenger taking him on in the Presidential caucuses and primaries, and the field isn’t deliberately flooded as it was in 2016, Trump will likely lose to that challenger.

  3. Anonymous
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    I agree, iRobert. They cannot afford to lose control of Florida, and they will fight like hell to keep it. If they lose it, they know, there will be no recovering.

  4. Jean Henry
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Romney has said he’d run. I’m not sure he’d beat Trump in a primary though. Trump is doing well among conservatives. What makes you believe he wouldn’t survive challenge. I’m sort of assuming he’ll get. 8 years at this point, short indictment, which is a change in my perspective… but ‘it’s the economy stupid.’

  5. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    “after trying unsuccessfully to get HW to calm down with few words.”

    No. You used a lot of words to try to ignore the question of where all those votes came from. Why did they not give a total after the polls closed?

  6. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    “our President, who has a limited grasp of our democracy works, but we have laws governing how elections are managed, and those laws, as Florida’s Democratic candidate for Governor Andrew Gillum said yesterday, require that “we count every vote.”

    Obviously they aren’t supposed to count fraudulent votes. Gillum and Nelson want to include votes cast by illegal immigrants.

    https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/10/gillum-nelson-non-citizen-vote/

  7. Jean Henry
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    No one here is going to click on a daily caller link. Find another source, HW.

  8. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    This is how Democracy works you moron. Did you even read the article? “The vote was disallowed despite the objections of the lawyers because two of the three members of the canvassing board ruled that it was an impermissible vote,” I am sure there will be Republican provisional ballots that will also be disallowed. One example does not make a rule by the way. How many legitimate over seas ballots do you want to disallow?

    All that matters to HW is winning. Does not give a rats ass about anything else. By the way when are those sealed indictments you thought were going to change the world going to be unsealed? You are just a fool of a tool.

  9. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    The relevant information is a court transcript. Your insular mindset is (one of) your weakness(es). I defer to your ignorance constantly by using sites you like. To know reality you have to expand your thinking.

  10. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    “wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:34 am | Permalink
    This is how Democracy works you moron. Did you even read the article? “The vote was disallowed despite the objections of the lawyers because two of the three members of the canvassing board ruled that it was an impermissible vote,” I am sure there will be Republican provisional ballots that will also be disallowed. One example does not make a rule by the way. How many legitimate over seas ballots do you want to disallow?
    All that matters to HW is winning. Does not give a rats ass about anything else. By the way when are those sealed indictments you thought were going to change the world going to be unsealed? You are just a fool of a tool.”

    Quoted for posterity. What are you even trying to say? What is how democracy works? We argue in court over whether dems can use ballots from non-citizens?

  11. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Indictments are ready. Did you ever find out who John Huber is? Nope. You just ignored it. Can’t wait to see the ignorance leaving.

  12. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    No one was in Court, idiot. The lawyers automatically object to the dismissal of any ballot, that is how you preserve the rights of the one voting–elections judges ruling the ballot inadmissible might be in error. If they do not object, that ballot will be dismissed. I am sure you are counting on the Republican Lawyers to object to every ballot that might be for a Republican not being counted. That is what Lawyers do, protect rights.

    Are these some of the sealed indictments you have been waiting on?
    https://amp.businessinsider.com/robert-mueller-to-issue-new-indictments-as-soon-as-tuesday-report-2018-11

  13. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    Huber has been investigating the Clinton-Russian connection for 14 months. What has he got to show for it? Keep dreaming, your fantasy world is all you seem to have.

  14. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    I’m sure you remember this fantasy from last spring.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksFs6-QwDdI

  15. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    You are tragically ignorant. I have no idea how someone gets to be like you, wobblie. Where do you get your information? You just shit it out and fling it everywhere or what?

    Attorneys argue in court over Broward County ballots
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lovSqEcFak

  16. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Like I surmised, you did not even bother to read the article you originally posted. The first sentence states, ” according to a transcript of a Palm Beach County Canvassing Board proceeding obtained by the Daily Caller News Foundation.”

    Pulling a separate article out about litigation that is only tangentially connected to your original argument is how duplicitous people behave. Did you even watch the video you posted? It concerns legal actions (ie. suits) that Scott has initiated. It does not have anything to do with the actual challenging of individual votes, it concerns shutting down the whole process.

    I see you are easily confused by complex issues. As always run away from arguments that you are confused about. A sign that you are not completely devoid of intelligence.

  17. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Declassification of incriminating documents by the President will lead to charges against prominent leaders, mostly dem politicians and supporters. Wanna bet?

  18. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Dude, shut the fuck up.

    https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2018/11/09/florida-recount-rick-scott-sues/1942084002/
    FRIDAY UPDATES

    9:10 p.m.: EMERGENCY HEARING IN PALM BEACH COUNTY SATURDAY

    A hearing is set for 8:30 a.m. Saturday in Palm Beach County court over Gov. Rick Scott’s lawsuit against county Elections Supervisor Susan Bucher.

    The hearing will take place at the Criminal Justice Complex on Gun Club Road in West Palm Beach, according to a court order.

    A county circuit judge earlier set a deadline of 10 a.m. for Bucher to turn any duplicate, “overvoted” or “undervoted” ballots to the county canvassing board by 10 a.m. Saturday.

    Chris Hartline, Scott’s campaign spokesman, said in a news release that Bucher was refusing to comply with the order.

  19. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    By the way, the suit that Scott brought that the youtube video you posted concerns–was tossed out by the Judge—Scott presented no evidence of voter fraud.

    No I don’t want to “bet” with you. I have no doubt you would welch on the bet. You constantly demonstrate you have little use for veracity, and the manner in which you engage in discussions demonstrate that you readily use false or misleading information.

  20. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    They had to be forced in court to comply with the law.

    “Judges in Palm Beach and Broward counties have sided with Florida Gov. Rick Scott against two supervisors of elections.

    Circuit Judge Krista Marx on Friday ordered Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections Susan Bucher to give the county canvassing board any duplicate ballots and any “overvoted” or “undervoted” ballots that have not yet been provided to the board by 10 a.m. Saturday.

    In Broward County, Circuit Judge Carol-Lisa Phillips previously set a 7 p.m. Friday deadline for Supervisor of Elections Brenda Snipes to turn over the voter information under Florida’s open records laws.”

  21. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    The article is from Nov. 9th. The suit was dismissed last night. The update this morning on the article you posted states, “By the end of this week, three of the top races on the state’s mid-term ballot will likely cross the threshold into machine recounts of the ballots — and a possible hand recount of over and under votes.”

    You are simply living in the past. Events are clearly happening to fast for you to comprehend.

  22. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    You are the liar. No one has a “right” to use phony votes. Fuck you and your entire ontological orientation.

    “A federal judge Friday set a hearing in the middle of next week on Sen. Bill Nelson’s request to include ballots with mismatched signatures in the recount.”

  23. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    “By the end of this week, three of the top races on the state’s mid-term ballot will likely cross the threshold into machine recounts of the ballots — and a possible hand recount of over and under votes.”

    What is your point? How am I living in the past? This shit is playing out in court like I said with your people trying to preserve their right(?!) to use phony ballots but you want to call me a moron for talking about it. What a piece of shit you are.

  24. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Don’t talk to me about democracy, communist. You want to label me every nasty thing you can think of? Alright, fuck you then, commie. You are the enemy of our Constitutional Republic. You’ll go to any lengths to undo the people’s choice.

  25. maryd
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    Wobblie really has HW frothing…

  26. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Once again, the lawsuit you reference in the youtube video was Scott seeking an injunction to stop the vote counting and to impound the ballot machines. That suit was filed in state court. The Judge dismissed that action stating that Scott had presented no evidence of voter fraud. The Judge did allow for additional observers from the Scott campaign to participate in the vote count. The “end of the week” referenced in all the articles you have posted is in reference to LAST WEEK, not this week.

    https://miami.cbslocal.com/2018/11/12/broward-judge-not-issuing-injuction-rick-scott-motion-impound-broward-election-equipment-records/

    Upon loosing that suit Scott proceeded to file 3 suits in Federal court—that was yesterday after the decision in state court. I recommend that you look at the dates of the articles you post. Your posting of articles from last week do not provide any of us with current information.

    I know it is complicated and you are having a hard time following the details. But come on HW, this is for all the marbles, its time to up your game.

  27. Sad
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    It must be scary for HW to see things starting to crumble.

  28. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    My point stands, wobbly. Your people are trying to use illegal ballots. The court had to force them to turn over their documentation. You are trying to tell me there is no fuckery in Broward and Palm County? You are out of your mind. We know for a fact Snipes mixed in bad ballots. Now they are trying to use more of them.

  29. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    What the fuck happened in Maricopa County too? True or false:

    ARIZONA
    R Gov won by 328,000 votes.
    D Sen is winning by 32,000 votes.
    R Gov won Maricopa County by 325,000 votes.
    D Sen winning Maricopa by 32,000 votes?
    [350,000] vote swing to D Sen?

  30. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Albeit the R Gov lead is now 182,000…still quite a swing.

  31. iRobert
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    HW, this is why I didn’t want to get into it with you earlier. You shouldn’t depend on Fox News to tell you what is going on. You’re smart enough to dig deeper and find the real situation. I beg you to do that.

    The situation isn’t the terrible attack on the democratic process in Florida that it is being portrayed as on Fox and by the GOP. They’re just making hay of it for political points with their base and others. Some may also genuainely not understand what ballots are being counted, thanks to the disinformation campaign. But everything is in the bag for the GOP, just like in 2000. Do you have any reason to believe this won’t play out the same way it did in 2000?

  32. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    How do I depend on any particular source? I hamstring myself by not posting true information because most of you categorically reject anything but your particular flavor of mainstream news. Probably 90% of my links are mainstream media. When was the last time I posted a Fox link? Was it true or not? Some of you derps just lie and categorically reject anything that doesn’t fit your narrative. One time I posted FAA flight logs Fox published in photographic form showing Bill Clinton on board a plane some and some of these absolute fuckin’ DERPS scoffed. How can you get by in the world with such an outlook? It must be soooo…confusing…

  33. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    should read “showing Bill Clinton on board a plane and some of these absolute fuckin’ DERPS scoffed.”

  34. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    If you categorically reject Fox but you think CNN has a lotta good stuff you are out of your mind. Most of both is garbage with the preponderance on the CNN side.

  35. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    Democrat values: Kyrsten Sinema fighting for johns to not be punished further for “unknowingly” buying sex with underage girls. But yay she’s anti-Trump!

    https://twitter.com/azbriananderson/status/1039578231718858754?lang=en

  36. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

    She tries to say it’s plausible to not know the difference between a twelve and a twenty year old.

  37. Sad
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

    I’m so glad this blog brought you and FF together.

    It must have been lonely before?

  38. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    FF does have high wisdom and intelligence so it is good to see. I’m not really lonely. Rocking out every day and night with Mrs. Warlord makes sure of that.

  39. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    What is the impetus behind the urge to devolve into meaningless comments like that? Just talk about the shit. Your girl thinks people getting twelve year old prostitutes should be just a normal procuring charge for example. You’re not funny. It’s not cute what you are doing. It doesn’t mean anything so why try adding noise?

  40. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    You seem to do a little better when you get a shot of good music, Sad. My personal theme song for this year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks5Kf_3HqoE

  41. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    I have no interest in trading tiny insults with you. You have always seemed like a nice person to me. It would be helpful if you were more specific when identifying the things you find problematic.

  42. Sad
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Your defense of Trump. It’s that simple. He constantly lies. It’s unacceptable. And as iRobert stated deranged or possibly evil.

    But to each their own.

    We’re all trying to reach for the sky, right HW?

  43. CNN's Jim Sciutto
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 4:39 pm | Permalink

    New: A federal judge finds Georgia county violated Civil Rights Act by rejecting voters’ absentee ballots with omitted or incorrect birth dates. Earlier in same case, judge prohibited state’s rejection of absentee ballots for signature mismatch issues.

  44. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Some times things happen for totally tangential reasons. A 39 vote margin in a state house race is the reason for the Judge ordering the vote counting extension. As the votes have been coming in, the Democratic Candidate for Agricultural Commissioner has over come a 40,000 + vote deficit.

    https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20181113/breaking-florida-recount-judge-to-order-pbc-recount-extension-to-nov-20?fbclid=IwAR0eatNDZ7C8o9e1wqksJUkoV2AQ3o62U9lwSfd9LRKryzEvEfcsdF2ANQo

  45. Jean Henry
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 5:33 pm | Permalink

    “long lines, broken voting machines, and discriminatory I.D. laws are known deterrents that will continue to dog American elections until they are systematically addressed. States actively committed to increasing voter participation, such as Colorado, Washington, Oregon, and Vermont, have passed a series of simple voting reforms, including same-day registration, automatic voter registration when getting a driver’s license, early voting, and enabling voting by mail by lifting restrictions on who can obtain an absentee ballot. Last Tuesday, a majority of citizens in Florida chose to restore voting rights to felons, and, in Michigan, a package of reforms popularly known as “promote the vote” garnered a sixty-six per cent victory, both cases demonstrating the national appetite for an electoral system that is as it is supposed to be: free and fair.

    Even as the vote counts continue in Florida and Georgia, the newly invigorated Democratic members of the House of Representatives have promised that their first act in the new Congress will be legislation to make voting easier and more inclusive. This is aspirational. It has no chance of passage in the Senate, where Republican members know that maintaining a majority will mean disenfranchising a sizable portion of the body politic. And that is to say nothing of a President who is unacquainted with the practice of democracy.”

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-recounts-in-florida-and-georgia-bring-a-touch-of-fairness-to-a-dysfunctional-election-day

  46. Jean Henry
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Even if HW and crew win this round, the GOP are losing the faith of the electorate with every stolen election.

    We are turning back gerrymandering state by state. We are opening up voting to more and more voters without the voting rights act or fedrral action. We are doing it state by state via referendum and legislators. And state by state reform is happening to criminal justice too. And on marijuana. The irony of Trump’s efforts to consolidate control is that the states are taking stronger action. The state’s rights argument was the strongest of the conservative core values– albeit one that falls apart re civil rights etc. But I think we can see now the founders intentions in beginning with strong states v federal rights. They feared tyranny and wanted an end run. Now we can use it to undermine Trump more effectively than any protest ever will.

  47. wobblie
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    In general I think IRoberts take on the recounts is accurate. I can’t imagine that the Florida Republican Party will allow the Democrats to win the state wide offices. That being said, we all may be underestimating the fissures Trump has created within the Republican Party. Bush loyalist may be extracting some vengeance on the Trumpers.

  48. AP
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    BREAKING: Democrat Josh Harder wins U.S. House seat in California farm belt, defeats 4-term Republican Rep. Jeff Denham.

  49. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    I don’t even consider any of the stuff I say a defense of Trump. Questioning Trump’s attackers does not need to be considered a defense a Trump. You could think of the questioning as an attempt toward clarifying the critique of Trump. The problem is that most of the critiques of Trump, as they are presented here, so often dissolve into nothingness when basic questions are asked.

    Everyone always brings up my double-standard. What is behind the talk of double-standards? If I attacked HW, EOS, and Trump everyone here would think I was nice and normal even if my attacks were mean and made no sense. I don’t do that do I? Instead I ask questions here and there and get called “corrupt”.

    It really is a sad state of affairs, Sad.

  50. Sad
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    My heart goes out to you.

    You could always take a vacation.

  51. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 10:42 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    Maybe you and I could do a group project where we examine a list of Trump lies. I recently saw a list of thousands of mistruths. Would you be willing to offer the top 20 worst lies Trump has said during his presidency? We could then look at those lies over the next couple of weeks. Evaluate them. We might even be able to prove that Trump is evil together. Wouldn’t that be fun. If Trump lies constantly, about significant things, then we should be able to get a pretty damning list together, right?

    I am serious.

  52. Sad
    Posted November 13, 2018 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Are you being serious?

    Even better, I’ll take a vacation.

  53. a real social media comment
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    “How come Republicans only get to vote up to the day of and including the election? Dems votes just keep crawling out of the woodwork. Nice that they are fight to get illegal votes counted. America?”

  54. your brilliant president today
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    “If you buy a box of cereal—you have a voter ID.”

    –Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America
    Nov. 14, 2018

  55. nick
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    maybe frosted flake can start a group project with u so as to get to the bottom of what is being communicated by the melting, worm-infested brain of the president when he says ‘if you buy a box of cereal-you have a voter ID.’ just make a list of all the people who have bought a box of cereal and also voted.

  56. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    The president’s must be a brain damaged moron because nick don’t understand one of Trump’s references. Synchronize your wrist watches and calibrate your compasses, folks. We have found true north and magnetic north. Their name is nick.

  57. iRobert
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Don’t you think that was a dumb comment the president made, FF? What does it accomplish? What are it’s affects? Is it the sort of thing a President should say?

  58. Satan
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    Hell is essentially Florida without the air conditioning.

  59. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Trump is pro- voter ID.

    Trump is an old man. Listen to him in the same way you would listen to your grandfather. Stuff just comes out weird….

    I interpreted Trump as saying 2 things: 1) it is too easy to pass the threshold of being able to vote….The ability to vote is as easy to obtain as a prize in a cereal box–back when they used to put prizes in cereal boxes; And/ or, 2) If you have the systems in place to buy yourself groceries, then you ought to have yourself organized enough to get yourself a picture Voter ID.

  60. iRobert
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    So you’re going to ignore my questions, FF?

    I don’t need any help figuring out what dumb guys are trying to say. It’s usually pretty simple. It seems like you’re trying to insult me by suggesting anything Trump could possibly utter would be in any way a challenge to understand.

    My grandfathers were nothing at all like Trump in the way they spoke or behaved. His speech and behavior reminds me more of something I’d see in a zoo, and which hadn’t been socialized to others of its species.

  61. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 14, 2018 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    1) Not an example of clear communication but not dumb, imo.

    2) Insofar as it was an attempt to communicate his thoughts on voter ID policy, “it” has the value any communication has between a countries leader and the citizens…

    3) I don’t know. When I google the cereal issue I find a lot of articles about how “Trump thinks you need an ID to buy cereal”. I wasn’t expecting that sort of madness. Hard to predict the affect. I will guess: Grounds for impeachment?

    4) Trump is not a precise communicator but he is our president. I don’t see it as a matter of “should” he communicate more precisely. He is what he is. He is old. He is not going to change much.

  62. Posted November 14, 2018 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    FF: In a rally in Florida in August, Trump said that voting should require ID, since you need a picture ID to buy groceries. I don’t know what he meant; maybe he was thinking of paying by check, or buying beer or cigarettes. It baffled a lot of people at the time. I assume that’s what he’s talking about here.

  63. Posted November 14, 2018 at 11:34 pm | Permalink

    Doug, he also said today that Democrats vote twice by going outside their polling places, changing their shirts, and then going back inside.

  64. Posted November 14, 2018 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Well yes, he does like to lie.

  65. iRobert
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Democrats have also been declared the winners in Georgia’s 6th congressional district race, New Mexico’s 2nd, and California’s 48th.

    There are still 4 US House races were winners have not officially been declared. Republicans look to have a half-percentage point advantage in Maine’s 2nd, and a little more than that in Texas’s 23rd.

    In California’s 45th, Democrat Katie Porter looks like she’ll soon be declared the winner by well over one percentage point.

    I’m Utah’s 4th, it’s a much closer call and there appear to be many ballots left to tabulate. At the moment, Democrat Ben McAdams has a 0.4 percentage point lead.

  66. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 6:23 am | Permalink

    Doug and Mark,

    I am aware Trump said those puzzling things. He says a lot of puzzling stuff. His style of communication involves exaggeration. His style of communication is imprecise. Everybody should know this by now. He also says a lot of stuff. His rally tour often devolved into Trump’s comedy improv tour.

    He is using exaggeration and gross generalities to try persuade people that we should require an ID for voting. Many people go to the grocery store with an ID. He is appealing to that class of “you” in order to persuade them. Most people don’t talk like that but Trump does.

    If you want to choose to believe Trump actually beleives you need an ID to buy cereal then that is your choice. I think it is a strange choice, but go for it.

    America elected an old guy who has talked in an imprecise way his whole life. He is not going to change even if he wanted to.

  67. iRobert
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    Having a president who says things which reflect almost total ignorance on all subjects is kinda freightening to me, FF. But I do appreciate that you answered my questions. I’m not used to seeing that ever from Trump apologists. EOS has a strict policy of never answering any questions. Talking to him is like watching Fox News. It’s hardly interactive at all.

  68. Posted November 15, 2018 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    FF: I don’t know if Trump actually believes you need ID to buy groceries, but he made that claim before, so I think that’s what he meant in this case. It doesn’t seem like “madness” to assume that he’s saying something he’s said before.

  69. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    Here is a thought experiment: Imagine you are strapped with explosives and asked a question. If you answer the question wrong the explosives are detonated and you die.

    The Question: Trump actually believes you can only buy breakfast cereal if you present a picture ID–True of false?

  70. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    People can choose to believe whatever they want. A big part of the madness, imo, is that so many articles are written to refute and explore the claim that “you need an ID to buy breakfast cereal”.

    I am thinking about writing an important book on the processes involved in buying breakfast cereal. Perhaps you or Mark would like to contribute a chapter to this important subject?

  71. Sad
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    False.

  72. wobblie
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    I’ve always liked Florida and air conditioning is overrated. Just stay close to the coast and you get those nice ocean breezes. Do they have hurricanes in hell?

  73. wobblie
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    IRobert called this one right—2 minutes late

    https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/417042-florida-not-using-broward-countys-recount-tally-because-it-uploaded

  74. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Damn, Broward turned in their recount two minutes after the deadline and now it won’t count towards the total. Scott picked up votes. Screw job on the voters. Criminal investigation!

  75. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    “His style of communication involves exaggeration. His style of communication is imprecise.” — Gosh FF you call others liars with so much ease but twist and turn your language not to call the president a liar. Even though that’s what he is, and a compulsive one. Next time you accuse me of lying I’m going to remind you that I’m just ‘prone to exaggeration and imprecise.’

  76. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    How dumb do you have to be to not understand it is hyperbole to get the point across that you need ID for just about everything in life but not for voting?

  77. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 10:03 pm | Permalink

    “IRobert called this one right—2 minutes late”

    How is what he said right? Dems in Broward failed to comply with state law from the time the polls closed up till today’s deadline. I hope they didn’t do anything criminal because the investigation is bound to find it.

  78. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I do not call people liars with ease. In fact, I very rarely call anybody a liar. I remember asking your buddy if he was lying. He said he was not (he was) but even then I did not call him a liar in that moment.

    I do remember quoting a song “why you always lying?” And I do think it was directed toward you but I am not sure.

    I don’t remember explicitly calling you a liar but if I did I would be willing to bet it was because you were misrepresenting so egregiously the only explanation left was that you were telling a lie. I would be more than happy to explain why I called you a liar, if I ever did, if you can point me to the conversation. Let’s take a fresh look at it! Honestly though, if you showed me calling you a liar I would probably just apologize for it. I don’t think of you as a liar but I do think you misrepresent way too much. Your buddy was a liar. I assume he is still a liar. If I never called him a liar I should have. I probably already did call him a liar and I don’t take it back.

    Having said that I think I do think it would be fitting if you described yourself in ways similar to many of the ways I describe Trump. My thesis has always been that the average mm.com poster embodies all of the worst aspects of Trump while failing to have any of his redeeming qualities. Remember how I used to call many here little Konald J Crump Juniors? I have always maintained that you guys are the reason we have Trump. People voted for Trump not because they think he is perfect but because he battles with the corrupt left. Speaking generally here but I truly believe ther negative qualities the corrupt left sees in Trump are the qualities they themselves possess only 10 fold. Cues that this is true are scattered everywhere.

  79. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    The online articles on the cereal thing are funny. A couple of websites were relorting that Trump believes that a person does not need just an ID but you need to specifically show VOTER ID in order to buy breakfast cereal.

    Let’s put it this way. I don’t think Trump is a well rounded and well educated genius but I do think he is 100 times more intelligent than the corrupt left gives him credit for. On the other hand I think the average person on the corrupt left is 100 times less smart than they believe themselves to be. None of it matters though. Trump is our democratically elected president. Deal with it!

  80. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2018 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    “My thesis has always been that the average mm.com poster embodies all of the worst aspects of Trump while failing to have any of his redeeming qualities.”
    — He has redeeming qualities?

  81. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    You are amazing, FF. The ultimate apologist. Are you auditioning for Huckabee-Sanders’ job? Are you under the impression, like EOS, that you are doing PR for the administration and that this blog has millions of readers?

    HW, not everybody in Broward County government a Democrat. It’s a certainty that there are plenty of individuals who can be relied upon by the state GOP to sabotage the process. Anyone who’s worked in county or municipal government can attest to this.

    You’ve said you’re not a Republican, and you’re obviously not adverse to the obvious fact that there are lots of improper actions which take place within the process. But it seems you still really believe it’s only the Democrats who would ever do anything unethical or underhanded. You’d have a better understanding of politics if you didn’t maintain that blind spot.

    The fuckup in Broward County was not likely an oversight. It’s not the sort of mistake which election officials make by accident. I told you everything was well in hand for the GOP, and that the recount would not be allowed to overturn anything. Even if some lower court were to now rule that the Broward ballots must be added, they would be overruled, or we would see another ‘unfortunate blunder’ keep excluded ballots from being introduced.

    What almost everybody doesn’t understand about all this, is that the election was rigged from the outset. In both Georgia and Florida, voters were systematically blocked and excluded in a very coordinated and managed way. It can be observed in many third-world countries’ elections. All the circumstantial evidence is there. It’s a lot easier for most American to see such manipulation and corruption when it’s outside of US borders. US election-monitors who have worked exposing corrupt processes would have all sorts of things to say about these Florida and Georgia processes if they were happening in some other country.

  82. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    I really don’t see myself as an apologist of Trump. I criticize the critics and they are free to think of it as a clarification of their own critique, if they want, but they seem to have ultimate faith and unshakable pride in their FakeBook-twitter-reasoning.

    I read and comment on this blog because I am trying to figure out how and why the left is such a disaster. I guess you could say I am doing it for selfish reasons but I like to think it is also important to figure out how and why the left has become so corrupt. I do think this blog offers exemplary examples of problematic thought processes and approaches . In that way it is the gift that keeps giving. I am grateful for the existence of this blog. I find the whole thing fascinating! Honestly, if this leads to something bigger I would always stay in touch my roots here because the shit that goes down here is “epic” in the sense that it is insanely illustrative, if not epic in terms of scale.

  83. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Just read your second paragraph, iRobert. I agree with what you are saying and I also understand why you would have that impression. I am sorry if this does not make sense. I am not sure how to phrase it…but I do think under all of the corruption and crust there is something that progressive types “possess” that MUST be preserved. It is the future if we are going to have a future. We are not ready for it yet and they (the progressives) sure as fuck are not ready to offer it to the world yet.

    I am sorry if I am not explaining myself properly. I think I would need to take a couple of poetry classes to be able to “say ” what I am trying to say.

  84. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Well, FF, I have to give you credit for answering questions. EOS has a strict policy of not answering any questions. I think he doesn’t feel he can be completely honest here, as he has a duty to represent. For that reason. you might have an advantage in vying for Huckabee-Sanders’ job. Of course, Trump may yet decide that his press secretary shouldn’t ever answer questions. Then EOS will have the edge. Of course you would still justify that decision, as anything Trump does is somehow reasonable from your perspective. Or at least that’s the impression you are committed in presenting. Maybe it would all be Acosta’s fault.

  85. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    Oops, I did not realize the second paragraph was addressed to HW. When I said “I agree” I was assuming you were addressing me. That is, I understand how you would have that impression of me based upon the things I have said here.

  86. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:26 am | Permalink

    “HW, not everybody in Broward County government a Democrat.”

    Not sure about the relevance of that claim. To humor you I’ll play along. What repubs in Broward government are associated with the midterm election problems Broward has had?

  87. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    I respect your civility, FF. It’s a dying art.

    I anticipate Jean attacking me for complimenting you on you’re civility. So I’ll say it again, I am not advocating civility on this blog. There may be a place for it, but it doesn’t seem like a possibility here. That doesn’t break my heart.

  88. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    “The fuckup in Broward County was not likely an oversight. It’s not the sort of mistake which election officials make by accident. I told you everything was well in hand for the GOP, and that the recount would not be allowed to overturn anything.”

    Define “the fuckup.” You seem to be insinuating there was malfeasance by repubs when all of the problems are with dem-controlled Broward and Palm. That’s who fucked up, right? Not the state gov.

  89. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:36 am | Permalink

    HW, I simply made that statement of the obvious because I got Thebes impression you might not understand that, or might not be taking that into account. Political power structures are all pretty much the same. I can’t imagine the sorts of things you or EOS might do if you were government employees working an election process. I’m guessing you would both be open to doing little things here and there to make sure those evil Democrats didn’t get in.

  90. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Doesn’t sound like you are saying much of anything. It’s pure insinuation.

  91. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    Guess all you want but that means nothing. I would stop dems or repubs from CHEATING. You would not? That’s why you project onto me. I thought you claimed to be impartial when it comes to justice.

  92. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    iRobert there are two very big things (Jumbo issues) I disagree with Trump on. I will not say what those two things are even if you ask. It will just complicate anything I say or do here. Given that Trump is our democratically elected president I don’t think it is productive to dwell too much on some sort of overall judgment on the whole person. That should have been done before the election. Nothing really hinges on whether or not I am the type of person to wear a red hat or the type of person to knock one off someone’s head. Similarly nothing hinges on “Do you like the whole person or not” type of judgments. Those kind of judgments don’t accomplish anything in our daily lives (imo they are evil sorts of judgments), those types of judgments are even less valuable when we are asking others to give an evaluation of the person who actually is our democratically elected leader.

    I think Kanye would understand perfectly what I am trying to say. I am sorry if this is not making sense. I am limited on time and I am having difficulty knowing if my point is coming across…

  93. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    HW, just as you are aware that not all individuals within the Trump administration are loyal to him, you should understand that that is the way things are throughout government at all levels. There are plenty of people in Broward County government who are not Democrats and are in some cases certainly very anti-Democrat. All the state GOP needs to derail the recount process is for one or more of them to do their jobs wrong. I can’t believe you want to argue about this. Maybe, actually, I do believe it. You don’t seem wholly committed to your cynical view of government and power structures. You seem to be maybe just another partisan ultimately.

  94. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    FF, it’s unfortunate that you don’t feel you can freely speak about your democratically elected president. Do you also feel those restrictions in regard to other elected officials?

    HW, if you now want to pretend dirty politics is a one way street, I suppose I don’t see any reason to convince you otherwise. But I will say that anybody who suggests that their party is pure and the other is corrupts is just about as dumb as a person can possibly get.

  95. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    But the recount saw Scott gaining votes in Broward and it is Broward who used feigned incompetence to fail to deliver the votes! Their guy said the 3:02 delivery time was due to not being familiar with the Florida state filing system! They are the ones who disenfranchised the voters.

  96. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    I was thinking of a thought experiment the other day. If a button could be presented to one of us and pressing that button had the magic power to switch the president to whoever the button-pusher wanted as president,without regard for who was actually democratically elected, then how many people on mm.com would push the button and override the democratically elected leader.

    I have more faith that EOS and HW would not push the button even if meant getting their way. I believe in democracy even if it kills us. I would trust EOS and HW to do the right thing over just about any regular poster here.

  97. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    “if you now want to pretend dirty politics is a one way street”

    I do not speak for Bush era repubs. I am talking about now. If you have something Florida repubs have done wrong in the midterms then bust it out. Otherwise you are just smearing the reality around to cover up what dems did.

  98. Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    FF: What I said was that Trump was probably referring to his earlier remark, and may have been thinking of paying by check. This was in response to you wondering what he meant. He says a lot of things that aren’t true, and I don’t know whether he’s deluded, deliberately lying, or inarticulate. Since I have no way of knowing, I don’t spend much time worrying about it. You think he’s inarticulate. Fine.

    HW: Who said it wasn’t hyperbole? As to the larger point, how many things do you need picture ID for? I think I used it once this year, when I got a document notarized.

  99. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    As an American, I feel very comfortable being open about my political opinions and my feelings about any and all elected officials, including the president. Isn’t that an essential aspect of a free society? If I felt it was better not to excercise those rights, I might as well just live in Putin’s Russia, or some other place where people are expected to keep their mouths shut, and their criticism to themselves.

  100. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Doug Skinner, I dunno…you?

    “I don’t know if Trump actually believes you need ID to buy groceries, but he made that claim before, so I think that’s what he meant in this case. It doesn’t seem like “madness” to assume that he’s saying something he’s said before.”

  101. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Doug Skinner: “deluded, deliberately lying, or inarticulate.”

    D) All of the above

  102. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    iRobert. It is matter of context. I speak freely in my criticisms in other contexts. I also hide some areas of agreement with Trump, depending on context.

  103. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    I like your idea, FF. We should see if we could arrange that experiment with HW and EOS. We could also throw in JH and any of the other lefties here. I think they would all push the button. But we have to run the experiment to find out. Can we use cages? Please!?

  104. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I can understand that, FF, with regard to context. Maybe I’ll buy you a beer sometime and you can tell me how disgusted you are by Trump and how much you hate him. We’d both feel a lot better.

  105. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Cute NPC meme and so true.

    https://twitter.com/RodStryker/status/1063315743725551617

  106. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    What you said makes sense to me Doug. I do think Trump’s speaking style involves a lot of exaggeration and generalities that he may or may not get around to explaining later. In many instances, especially at the rallies, his primary concern seems to be performing for the people–almost like a stand up comic. We knew this. We know this. We elected this.

    I was trying to be funny when I suggested you write a chapter in my book about the cereal thing.

  107. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    HW, the “Orange Man Bad” meme is pretty good.

    I’ve been typing all of my comments recently on a iPhone 5, which has made it especially challenging for me to write anything coherent or worth reading. The text characters I’m dealing with here are about three millimeters in height, if that. I have to get to a PC to write any real analysis of anything. I’m also constantly fighting with autocorrect which seems to be set on taunt and tease mode.

  108. Jean Henry
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Trump developed his stump speech by simply repeating what the crowd cheered for. This is well documented by statements from people in the campaign. He just loved the applause. And what worked best was hateful speech towards HRC, other women with power or influence and people of color and non-Christians. Also a lot of false promises about revitalizing the manufacturing sector via tariffs. And his policies have followed suit. Absent any moral or political compass, he let the loudest in the mob dictate our policy agenda. And it’s racist and regressive as fuck as a result.

    The only characteristic Trump brings to the table is megalomania, vengefulness and self-dealing. Which translates nicely with great power to autocracy.

  109. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    What I’m saying is that I may try to better explain what I think about the Florida and Georgia elections, if I get an opportunity.

  110. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Well said, Jean.

  111. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    How is enumerating Hillary Clinton’s crimes hateful? I would say it’s hateful to support a traitor like Hillary but I wouldn’t say it as if it applies to everyone who voted for her. Most of them either believe Hillary is innocent or were willing to wear a clothespin on their nose while they voted, believing she would be not as bad as Trump.

    Jean, you are so full of hate it seeps like pus out of weeping wounds all over you. It truly is disgusting. Then you go “Look at the HATEFUL ONES!!!”

  112. Jean
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    ” If a button could be presented to one of us and pressing that button had the magic power to switch the president to whoever the button-pusher wanted as president,without regard for who was actually democratically elected, then how many people on mm.com would push the button and override the democratically elected leader.
    I have more faith that EOS and HW would not push the button even if meant getting their way. I believe in democracy even if it kills us. I would trust EOS and HW to do the right thing over just about any regular poster here.”

    Bwahahahaha! EOS and HW would have ejected Obama fro office the second he took his oath. You are truly delusional. Trump is being investigated for good reason. If they had anything on Obama at all. he would have been investigated too. Mitch McConnel openly stated that the only GOP agenda for Obama’s first term was to deny him re-election. Micth would have run for the button too.

    I have heard no one here calling for Trump’s premature removal since the whole stupid electoral college thing. (That was classic grief-stricken denial/bargaining behavior) We all are waiting for the investigation to conclude. We may want his removal but we also dont want civil war. Most people on the far right (Q included) seem to be hankering for it on the other hand. The constituency that has been obsessed for 30 years with locking up member sof the opposing party has been the GOP base.

    FF, you have the worst case of double-standard fronting as rationality in your perspective of anyone I’ve ever encountered. Next time you decide to have a ‘thought experiment’ maybe apply some historical facts to it.

  113. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    I think those are all valid and refreshing points of view, Jean. Why didn’t you say so before?

    #orangemanbad

  114. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    “the whole stupid electoral college thing”

    Yeah, our team got more shots on goal so we should be the winner! That should outweigh what that dumb scoreboard says!

  115. anonimal
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    @FF
    You seem like a decent person, but if you are coming here to learn about the left then you are handicapping yourself. It’d be like me reading Breitbart comments for my understanding of conservatives, its a slap in the face to conservatism. I owe it to myself to learn from the best sources of conservative thought not from the worst or the cheapest. So I listen/read anything that Tyler Cowen does (libertarian economist, best interview podcast around) and David French (religous conserative writer) and try to read the National Review every once and a while.

    If you want to get a sense of the modern progressive movement, I’d recommend reading the longform stuff on Vox or try listening to Ezra Kleins interview podcast. I also like The Atlantic. CNN is worse than garbage amd Huff Po is like crack for scared liberals, so don’t go there.

    But you aren’t learning anything about progressives on here. These are just a bunch of scared people lashing out anonymously (uh, #metoo?). You’d walk away feeling satisfied every day that liberalism is just irrational identity politics, like going to the gym to drink gatorade and do a few sets of curls. Its not actually a workout

  116. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Seriouy HW, “orange man bad” is awesome. Thanks for sharing. I want to go back and read all of those protest signs in the video.

    Did you notice in your “zombie herd in Ann Arbor” video that there was someone holding a protest sign that read just “TRUTH”? I wonder which side he was on?

  117. wobblie
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    FF, you actually believe that HW would do the right thing as an election official? His comment about the Dems, “Otherwise you are just smearing the reality around to cover up what dems did.” What did the Dems do? Scott had his day in court to demonstrate voter fraud, and the Judge bounced his suit because he did not demonstrate “any” voter fraud.

    The worst the Dems are guilty of is taking too much time to figure out the State’s web page. It is delusional folks like HW who actually believe the President when he says that illegal voters go back to there car, change there shirt and go back and vote again.

    When it is time for the rubber to hit the pavement, the Republicans have nothing. After all HW probably believes, as the President does, that you can not see the F-35 when it is right next to you, because it is invisible. The Republican fixation on voter fraud and voter suppression is the only way they can come close to contesting an election. After all they have not had a candidate for President who has won the majority of the votes in this century.

  118. wobblie
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    I was mistaken, Bush the Second won a majority his 2nd term.

  119. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Anonimal,

    I think you did a great job of identifying what people are reading. That is the point! They go to college, they read the primary sources, the listen to their professor, they read that stuff, Facebook it up, tweet it out, and there confidence builds and then they try to take their shit to the marketplace of ideas and their arguments evaporate into thin air. Most want this to be another safe space for their circle jerks–just like the good old days.

  120. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Sure thing, Flakes. Yeah, I think I did see the truth sign. The whole thing was ironic. NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW. Okay, good! That’s what I like to hear. As long as they stick to it when the evidence dam breaks (those 61,000 sealed indictments or matters or whatever you want to call them) and way more of their people are swept up in the corruption-destroying wave.

  121. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Wobblie,

    We have had people here claim that they would do “anything” to prevent Trump if given the opportunity. Anything!

    I do believe HW would do the right thing. Let’s ask him. What would you do,HW, if Hillary was elected and you had the magic button to put Trump in office instead of her?

  122. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    “What did the Dems do?”

    Only everything wrong starting with not certifying the number of votes. It is supposed to be done within thirty minutes of polls closing. Then there are supposed to be updates every 45 minutes. Didn’t do that. Tried to add votes after polls closed. Tried to get mismatched signatures fixed after the fact and did. A second chance to try to get the signature right? What? There is a criminal investigation going on right now so I don’t think you want to go out on that limb.

  123. Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    HW: No, not me. I didn’t say anything about hyperbole. But you’re right, he is often hyperbolic.

  124. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    If the election was on the up and up of course I would go along with it. If there was election fraud then hell no.

    It was tempting for patriots in the military to make mass arrests of government criminals in the past but they wanted to avoid a civil war. They decided to do it by the book with Trump as their recruited President. Now everything is in order to begin (corrupt officials out: Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Brennan, Clapper, etc…) Declassification of FISA documents and more by President Trump begins the avalanche.

  125. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    You expressed that you took it as a flat statement of his understanding of whether you have to show ID to buy groceries. Which to me sounds like you are not getting the point and not recognizing the hyperbole.

  126. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    But I wonder why a few people here assume you have no integrity, and assume you would be tempted to do the wrong thing? Gee whiz, some things are only knowable to the psychologists, I guess.

  127. anonimal
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    @FF
    I don’t care about what other people read, you claim that you want to understand your opposition. You are scraping the bottom of the barrel on here, just coming to confirm what you already believe. If you want to learn something, find the best representation of what your opponent believes. For example, I don’t think that most liberals read good conservative journalism, they just hate read the president’s tweets and fox news and pretend that it means they know something about conservatism. Its lazy and pathetic. Similarly, its lazy and pathetic to pretend that chatting on here gives you any insight into liberalism. Most of the people on here don’t have jobs, they are retired and scared and are trying to stave off loneliness. Those things are fine, but you aren’t debating with young college students whose ideas can’t compete, your just a high schooler impressed by your ability to beat up 5th graders. Yeah, anyone would think they are smart if thats their comparison.

  128. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Anonimal,

    I disagree with everything you are saying both for and against me. I also disagree with everything you are saying both for and against this blog. It serves a purpose for me. I also have access to different sources of info, as well as different outlets of communication. I’m good.

  129. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Are you saying young college students are on top of their game? I am not sure what you meant when you were talking about young college students just now. Is that what you meant?

  130. Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    “You expressed that you took it as a flat statement of his understanding of whether you have to show ID to buy groceries. Which to me sounds like you are not getting the point and not recognizing the hyperbole.”

    No, that’s not what I said.

    “But I wonder why a few people here assume you have no integrity, and assume you would be tempted to do the wrong thing? Gee whiz, some things are only knowable to the psychologists, I guess.”

    Is that directed at me? Why are you trying to pick a fight? Sorry, I’m not interested.

  131. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Doug, No. I was referring to our second thought experiment. Not the first thought experiment involving the explosives :)

    I am sorry if I have added to the confusion. I think I understood what you were saying….Makes sense to me…

  132. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    I already quoted you so why don’t you clarify your point?

    “I don’t know if Trump actually believes you need ID to buy groceries, but he made that claim before, so I think that’s what he meant in this case. It doesn’t seem like “madness” to assume that he’s saying something he’s said before.”

  133. Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Sure. FF was speculating about what Trump meant with that cereal remark, and thought it was “madness” to think he was saying you needed ID to buy cereal. I pointed out he’d said that before, and was probably saying it again. I also said I don’t know if Trump really believes that, but may have been thinking about paying by check. That’s all. I don’t disagree that he was also hyperbolic.

  134. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Okay, good. I didn’t read all your comments carefully so sorry about that. Other people didn’t get it though: your brilliant president today, Jean Henry, who else? I don’t know. Who gives a shit really? It’s a sound bite taken out of context. Sometimes you do have to show ID to buy groceries anyways. That’s the point. You have to show it for all kinds of things.

  135. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    You have to show it to cast a normal ballot already.

  136. nick
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    lmao ff, what well-established reference am i too stupid to understand from that cereal comment? it was obviously a bungled attempt at metaphor which has been interpreted in different ways and mocked, appropriately. if trump were using an idiom and communicated in a coherent way the reference would be easy to understand. it’s wild that you think people here are ‘twitter-fried’ or whatever and that’s a problem, but the president gets a free pass as being ‘imprecise’ in his communication. u say you’re not an apologist for the president but you do come across as a bit of sycophant.

  137. anonimal
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    In regards to:
    They go to college, they read the primary sources, the listen to their professor, they read that stuff, Facebook it up, tweet it out, and there confidence builds and then they try to take their shit to the marketplace of ideas and their arguments evaporate into thin air. Most want this to be another safe space for their circle jerks–just like the good old days.

    What I meant:
    A) I misread the “they go” in your statement. I thought I read, but also get the feeling that you seem to think that college liberals are a good representation of modern liberalism. Looking at it again, I see that you were saying that liberal ideas don’t hold up in the marketplace of ideas, and that liberals try to close themselves off from that marketplace in reaction to that. I think thats incorrect, but you are welcome to your ideas.

    B) My point is that you aren’t debating anyone at the top of their game on here. Most people who are at the top of their debate game don’t have time to write comments on a blog. I’m on here once a month or so when I take a few days off, and I have no idea if I’m at the top of my game. The influential people who used to comment on here have left, because most of them don’t want to be goaded into a debate with an anonymous person. The anon has no risk in the situation, nothing to lose, so can focus on trying to bring out the worst in another person. So you are just debating some lonely retirees glued to CNN instead. I actually live with a lonely retiree with Trump Derangement Syndrome in my house, and it has ruined her mind and ability to think clearly. I’m saying that as a trump hating neoliberal.

    C) Regarding ideas not holding up outside of school: Of course thats the case, because college a place where people do stupid crap. I have a Republican friend who was a super-idealistic libertarian and had the same thing happen to him when he realized the world was more complicated. Now he’s just a Republican. Paul Ryan has talked about the need to back off of being so idealistic once he left college. The reality check is universal for both liberals and democrats. A great example for Democrats is realizing that not every person who isn’t PC on race is a complete racist. Most adult democrats I know understand that. You wouldn’t get that in a comment section though, because again, its the bottom of the barrel and people only deal in caricature.

  138. Anonymous
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    I don’t get it. FF wants us to provide all kinds of examples and citations for even the most meaningless things, but the President gets to say completely stupid things and its on us to guess the meaning?

    That doesn’t make sense at all.

  139. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    FF, I do believe HW has a sense of integrity. However, if he believed Democrats were trying to rig something, I think he would act in opposition no matter what. HW believes the Democrats are committing fraud in an attempt to overturn the vote in Florida. If he were a government employee responsible for some portion of the decision making in Broward County, and someone from the state GOP asked him to make sure the deadlines were t met, I believe he’d do it. Not because he doesn’t have integrity, but because he would believe he was countering others who had no integrity.

  140. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    The views expressed here on MM.com may be just muck from the bottom of the barrel, but that muck is an increasing portion of the contents of the barrel. The muck is growing, and the elite liberal and conservative thinking is all but extinct now. Sure, it’s nice to seek out those good, old-school, sources of political thought, but the lunatics have taken over the asylum. They’re calling the shots now, and even the shots called by the elite are all devised with the lunatics in mind.

    I am afraid we are in a lot of trouble, folks. I don’t think we’re bad people per se, but this is a very rotten culture and it’s getting worse fast. We’re all responsible for that.

  141. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    nick,

    I don’t think you are stupid. I never called you stupid. Why would you say I think you are too stupid to understand a reference? One group of people might not understand a reference that another group understands and it very often has nothing to do with a variance in intelligence between the two groups. I already described what I heard when Trump said “Buy a box of cereal—You have voter ID” and part of my interpretation involved getting a prize in every box of cereal. This a reference that probably does not make sense to people born after 1990 because they do not give prizes in cereal anymore. I am also not saying my interpretation is necessarily the correct interpretation but it is my interpretation.

    Similarly, you have interpreted Trump’s words to mean something as well. Rather, than actually interpreting his statement to make some sort of sense, however, you have chosen to believe that Trump’s statement is a meaningless manifestation of Trump’s “melting [and] worm infested brain”.

    I was not calling you stupid. I sarcastically suggested we use your judgments as our reference point for all meaning. I am attempting to use exaggeration to make a point. Here, nick failed to see any meaning in Trump’s statement and therefore the statement must be from a source incapable of providing meaning–you know–like how a “melting [and] worm infested brain” is not the best source of meaning. Do you see how that works? I am criticizing your approach. What does any valid criticism in your approach have to do with the approach taken by someone else? What is the obsession with double-standard around here? I really don’t get it.

    I don’t believe this but if I said “Trump is brain dead dumbfuck dipshit” before I criticized your approach would it somehow magically make my criticism of your approach more or less valid? What Trump is, has very little to do with what nick is, unless you are nick.

  142. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    anonimal,

    I like what iRobert said. I am going to try to do my part to reduce the toxicity around here. Bottom of the barrel, middle of the barrel, top of the barrel, I really don’t care about the label. This place is a good representation of a huge and engaged voting block, imo. I want to try to figure out what is behind the thought processes of the average trump hating liberal. A big part of that task will involve actually engaging in arguments.

  143. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 2:49 pm | Permalink

    anonimal,

    I like what iRobert said. I am going to try to do my part to reduce the toxicity around here. Bottom of the barrel, middle of the barrel, top of the barrel, I really don’t care about the label. This place is a good representation of a huge and engaged voting block, imo. I want to try to figure out what is behind the thought processes of the average trump hating liberal. A big part of that task will involve actually engaging in arguments.

  144. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Anonymous,

    Can you offer one quote wherein it shows me asking someone to provide an example and citation of something meaningless?

    (Please answer my question by midnight in MLA format.)

  145. anonimal
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    @FF
    Theres only like 10 people who comment here now though. By volume of comments, most of them are dixicrat style republicans (care more about race and immigration, less about conservatism), so its not much of a sample of the left. But I think the Republican party is really just the Dixicrat party now. MM is obviously a liberal, but he’s like a locally oriented commie (kinder-gentler), so he represents a relatively small proportion of the democratic party. I have a hard time seeing you do anything but come here to confirm what you already believe.

    @iRobert
    You seem like a good guy, middle barrel at least.

  146. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 16, 2018 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Anonimal,

    For my purposes the amount of material here ebbs and flows but it is way more than I could ever begin to handle.

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