Clinton v. Trump

OK, I’ve decided to open a bottle of whiskey and watch tonight’s presidential debate between former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and reality television personality Donald Trump. And I’m going to try, to the best of my ability, to blog throughout. If you’d like to join me in the conversation, feel free to post comments to this thread… Here, if, like me, you don’t have access to a working television, is a link to the live Youtube stream.

Before we get to the debate, though, I wanted to share one thought with you…

Regardless of what happens on the stage tonight, or on election day this November, this is not going to be over. This isn’t just about Trump. This is about what comes next. Even if Trump is defeated, you can be sure there will be another to take his place, and that’s the truly troubling thing. Now that we’ve started down the slippery slope from Sarah Palin to Donal Trump, I think we should all be concerned about what comes next. It’s hard to imagine that something worse is looming, but I don’t see much reason to be optimistic. With the temperatures rising and the demographic makeup of America shifting, I don’t see how we can avoid it. Simply put, fearful people with short attention spans do not make good decisions. And I’m not sure we can escape that reality, no matter how hard we try. We have to try, though. And, if we win this fight, and defeat Trump, we can’t let up. We don’t just need to vote the right president into office, we need to actively support her as we work together to invest in public education and start rebuilding a world where the very suggestion of a candidate like Donald Trump would be met with ridicule and scorn. We can’t just say, “we really dodged a bullet that time” and go on with our lives after this. We need to fight. We need to educate. And we need to support politicians that will put us back on the right track, investing at home, getting the corporate money out of politics, and ensuring that everyone, no matter who their parents are, has the opportunity to reach their fullest potential. That’s the only way, over the long term, that we can stop this from happening again, and again, and again.

As for our chances of winning this presidential race, according to Nate Silver and the folks FiveTHirtyEight.com, the race is pretty much even. As of right now, based on their analysis of credible polling data gathered in each state, Hillary Clinton has a 54.1% chance of winning the election, but Trump is gaining fast.

clintontrumpseptpolls

8:30 If you haven’t seen it yet, the Clinton campaign issued a statement a few days ago, in the wake of Matt Laurer’s disastrous town hall meeting, urging future debate moderators to actually do their jobs and call Trump on it when he lies. [Follow that link for 19 pages of lies told by Trump over the course of the last few months.] Also, it’s just been announced that Bloomberg TV will be fact checking the debate in real time. Personally, I don’t know how much good it will do, as Trump’s supporters already know that he lies, and don’t seem to care, but I suppose it’s possible that he could lie so egregiously about something that it’ll make a difference to someone.

8:40 For those of you looking for a window into the mind of a typical Trump supporter, one of our anonymous, local commenters on this site, a fellow who calls himself EOS, had the following to say about the debate earlier today.

…It will be interesting to see if Hillary can stand for 90 minutes tonight without having any coughing fits or neurological spasms. There won’t be any neurologists standing by her side. She will probably dose up to avoid medical symptoms and could possibly end up with slurred speech and muddled thinking. She is not charismatic and if she tries to impress us with details of obscure policies she will lose the audience. Meanwhile, Trump will get in some good jabs about her emails. He will be entertaining. He could be a gentleman and offer her a seat for the long debate. Maybe even ask her to reveal the pseudonym Obama used and find out if there are any details about her time at the State department that she can still remember. Tonight could very well be the end of her run.

The first time I read through it, I was focusing on the conspiracy theories, the nonsense about Clinton’s neurological issues and her email server. The more I look at it, though, the more I’m struck by this line. “He will be entertaining.” Clinton, he says, will likely bore us “obscure policies,” but Trump will win because he’s entertaining. And that’s really what it all comes down to, isn’t it? Trump just needs to be entertaining to “win” the debate. And that fucking terrifies me. It’s not about facts or policy positions. It’s about our insatiable need to be entertained.

8:51 I’ve decided to donate $1 to the Hillary Clinton campaign for ever minute that she doesn’t have a “neurological spasm.” (Thanks, EOS, for firing me up and getting me to open my checkbook.) If you’d like to join me, you can donate here. [Speaking of hidden health concerns, I wonder if the blogosphere will blow up tomorrow with theories about how Trump is dying, given the insane amount of sniffling we saw from him tonight. My favorite line about the sniffling came later from Stephen Colbert, who said that it looked as though “(Trump) was fighting off a cold… with cocaine.”]

8:58 I wonder if Trump made good on his tongue-in-cheek promise to bring Bill Clinton’s former mistress, Gennifer Flowers, to the debate as his guest. I’m looking but I don’t see her anywhere. For what it’s worth, I don’t see Scott Baio either.

9:02 Tom Brokaw says 100 million people are watching… Debate is starting… Here we go.

9:10 Trump is the first to mention Michigan, stating that Ford is moving jobs abroad. “They think they’re going to get away with this, and they fire all their employees in the United States, and move to Mexico,” he said of the automotive manufacturer. Trump says he’ll fix things by dropping corporate taxes by half. [Shortly after the debate, Ford put out a statement saying that Trump was lying when he said that it was their intention to eliminated jobs in the United States. No jobs would be lost, the company said, as a result of their operations in Mexico.]

9:12 Clinton gets first catch phrase, referring to economic policies as “Trumped Up Trickle Down.” She says that Trump is selling the same failed trickle down economic policies of the past. She then works in the fact that Trump got his start in business with $14 million from his father. Trump describes it was a “small” loan from his father.

9:15 Trump says he’ll tell companies taking jobs abroad that they can do it, but they’ll pay big taxes on the products that they import into the United States.

9:16 Our recession was because we took “our eyes off of Wall Street” and stopped investing in our middle class, Clinton says. Clinton quotes Trump from 2006, when he said that he wanted a collapse, so that he could buy up more property. “That’s called business, by the way,” Trump responds. Clinton reminds him that thousands of Americans lost their jobs during the recession.

9:19 Climate change. Hillary says Trump thinks it’s a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. He says that’s not true. [Trump later, however, does say that he doesn’t believe global warning is a threat. And, by the end of the debate, people would be sharing the following quote from Trump on social media, saying exactly what Clinton had said that he’d said.]

chinawrming2

Trump mentions Michigan and Ohio again, which makes me think that we might actually be important. [I believe he’s also coming back to Michigan at the end of the week.]

Trump says to Clinton that she’s been at this for 30 years, and still hasn’t fixed the economy and created jobs. She responds and says that people did pretty well under her husband in the ’90s.

9:21 NAFTA, Trump says, is the worst trade deal ever. Clinton responds, “That’s your opinion.” [I suspect this will hurt her. As she said it, I could see it playing in my head as a Trump ad.]

9:23 Discussing trade deals, Clinton says, “I know you live in your own reality, Donald.”

9:23 “Secretary, you have no plan,” Trump says. Clinton tells him to buy her book, in which all of her plans are outlined.

9:25 Trump says Clinton will raise taxes. Clinton says it’s not true. She says she only wants to raise taxes on the very wealthy, who are benefiting the most from the American economy. She encourages people to go to her site, as her people will be fact-checking Trump in real time.

9:26 Trump attacks Clinton for giving away her plans to fight ISIS on her website. “At least I have a plan,” Clinton says. Trump responds by saying, “You’ve been fighting ISIS (unsuccessfully) for your entire adult life.” [ISIS was formed in about 2006, I believe.]

By the time we’d reached the 26-minute mark, Trump had interrupted Clinton 25 times.

9:29 Clinton says that, by the end of the night, she’ll be blamed for everything. Trump responds, “Why not?”

9:30 Trickle down economics did not work, says Clinton. Cutting taxes on the wealthy did not work. Top down doesn’t work, says Clinton. We need to invest in the middle class. [The man who got his start in business with a “modest” $14 million loan from his father disagrees.]

9:32 “We are in a big, fat ugly bubble,” Trump says of the economy, which he warns will tank if Clinton is elected. [Clinton, if she were smart, would repeat this phrase and say that he’s living in “a big, fat, ugly bubble.” She doesn’t.]

9:33 Trump says he’d like to release his tax records but he can’t… Lester Holt, the moderator, says he’s able to release his taxes now according to IRS rules… Trump deflects… “I will release my tax records when she releases her 30,000 emails,” he finally says. This line gets a lot of applause from Trump supporters. Clinton asks, “Why won’t he release his tax returns?” She then goes on to speculate as to what he may be hiding. Maybe he’s not as rich as he says he is, she says. Maybe he’s not as charitable as he says he is. Maybe he owes millions to foreign banks. Or, she says, maybe he doesn’t pay any income tax at all. “That makes me smart,” Trump says. “There’s something he’s hiding,” Clinton concludes. Then she mentions that there could be conflicts of interest related to the foreigners he’s in debt to… Here’s the video.

9:37 Trump goes at Clinton over her use of a private email server as Secretary of State, saying it’s “disgraceful.” Then, referring to his debt, he says he’s “under leveraged.” Sure, he says, he owes a lot, but it’s not much considering what his assets are worth.

9:40 Trump: “We’ve become a third world country.” We should invest here, not in the Middle East. We could have fixed everything in America twice over for what we spent there, he says. “Maybe it’s because you haven’t paid any income tax,” Clinton says. [This, I think, was one of Clinton’s best retorts of the evening.] He says that, if he had, it just would have been squandered too.

9:41 Clinton talks of all the workers Trump has stiffed over the years. She says an architect that Trump refused to pay is in the audience. “Maybe he didn’t do a good job,” Trump says. “I’m relieved my father never did work for you,” Clinton says of her father who was in the drapery business.

9:42 Trump explains his several bankruptcies by saying that he was just taking advantage of the laws of the nation. If you don’t like it, he says, change the laws.

9:43 Trump works in an ad for his new hotel on Pennsylvania Avenue in DC… the place where the stage collapsed a few days ago.

9:44 Lester Holt raises the issue of race… I wonder if Trump will mention that he now has both Ormarosa and Don King on his team.

9:45 Clinton talks of “gun epidemic” that kills more young black men than the next nine causes of death combined… Trump says Clinton won’t talk about “law and order.” He mentions the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police… Lester Hold says “stop and frisk” was proven unconstitutional. Trump says that wasn’t the case. Lester says it was racial profiling. Trump disagrees. He says we need more “stop and frisk” in Chicago, and elsewhere… “We need law and order in the inner cities,” Trump says. Clinton says it’s terrible that Trump keeps talking about how awful black communities are. She says “stop and frisk” was not only found unconstitutional, but also didn’t work. Property crime, she says, is down by 40% over the past several years. Clinton then goes on to say that you’re more likely to be arrested, charged and convicted if you’re a man of color. We need to fix that, she adds. We need to divert people, get rid of mandatory minimums, get rid of private prisons, she says. And, she says, we need common sense gun laws to cut down military type weapons. We also need to keep terrorists from buying guns. (Trump, breaking with the NRA on this one point, says he agrees that people on the terrorist watch list shouldn’t be able to buy guns.)

9:55 Clinton talks about “implicit bias” training. She says federal government should help pay for it.

9:56 Trump brings up the fact that Clinton once used the term “super predator” to describe young black men. He says that he thinks that Clinton would agree with him on “stop and frisk” if she was being honest. Trump says the African American community has been used and abused by Democrats to get votes.

9:59 Trump makes a comment about the time Clinton just took away from the campaign trail. She responds by saying that she was preparing for the debate. “I took time,” she said. “I prepared to be President. And that’s a good thing.” Clinton gets applause. [As the evening wore on, it became more and more obvious that Trump had was not sufficiently prepared. Some conservative commentators are now condemning Clinton for “over preparing.”]

10:02 What made you change your mind and say a few days ago and state that you’re now of the opinion that Obama was born in the United States, Holt asked Trump. Trump says that we should move on and focus on defeating ISIS and having a strong border. Holt stays on him, asking why he kept suggesting that Obama wasn’t born in America until recently, when the his birth certificate was made public five years ago, in 2011. What changed your mind now, Holt asked again. “No one was caring much about it,” Trump said. He took credit for getting the birth certificate out… He should have produced his birth certificate earlier… Clinton says Trump knew we’d be talking about this. He wants to put it to bed. His political career was built on this lie, with no evidence… Donald was sued in 1973 by the Justice Department for not renting to African Americans. “He has a long record of engaging in racist behavior.” Trump says that she was disrespectful to Obama during their campaign eight years ago. He explains his the lawsuit from ’73. Says there was no admission of guilt in that case. I settled that lawsuit with no admission of guilt.” Trump ends the segment with a bizarre statement about how he recently opened a new business where there was no racism.

10:07 Clinton brings up Russia in response to a question about cyber attacks. She references Trump’s admiration for Russian dictator Vladimir Putin. They’re testing us, she says, and they need to know that we’ll fight back. And, she adds, when Trump encourages foreign government to hack us, as he did not too long ago, it’s serious business. And that’s why, she says, 50 Republican national security officials recently signed a letter stating that Trump would be a dangerous president. Trump responds that 200 generals support him, and he’d rather have them. Trump then goes on to say that we learned from the DNC hack just how badly the Democratic Party had “taken advantage of” Bernie Sanders. He then added that, “Obama has lost control of the internet.” ISIS and others are beating us at our own game, Trump says.

10:10 Trump says that Obama and Clinton created a vacuum in Iraq when they pulled our troops out, giving rise to ISIS. We should have left 10,000 or more troops behind, he said. And, he adds, “We should have taken the oil,” as that’s what funds their activities. Clinton responds by saying that Trump supported the war in Iraq. She also said that our troops left the country according to the terms set by George Bush, prior to the Obama administration.

10:14 A discussion on how to stop homegrown terrorist attacks turns to NATO and our allies. Trump has insulted these people, Clinton says. And we need their cooperation. They have information that we need. He’s alienating them, she says, with his take of potentially disbanding NATO. Trump questions how effective NATO has been, saying that we’ve been working with these same people for years without any success. Trump then says that he’s “all for Nato,” but we need to figure out a different structure. We cannot afford to pay over 70%, he says, and the organization needs to focus more on things that matter to us, like ISIS and terrorism.

10:20 “I did not support the war in Iraq,” Trump repeats. Yes, he says, he did an interview with Howard Stern where he said he wasn’t sure. The rest of this, he says, is fiction being peddled by the Clinton campaign. He says that, if we really want the truth, reporters should talk with Fox News personality Sean Hannity, who can confirm that he was against the war in Iraq from the very beginning. I hadn’t expected to hear anyone say, If you don’t believe me, call Sean Hannity, but that’s pretty much what happened. We are living in surreal times. [Politifact, by the way, says Trump is lying when he says he didn’t support the invasion of Iraq.]

10:23 Trump says, “I have better judgment and temperament than she does.” He goes on to say, “I have a winning temperament.” Clinton responds by saying that he’s never had to negotiate a deal with the Russians and the Chinese, and resolve international disputes without firing a shot. She then mentions something that Trump said a month or so ago, after an incident where Iranian attack boats began circling an American destroyer in the Persian Gulf. Tump told the press at that, if he were president, the Iranian ship would have been “blown out of the water.” That kind of temperament, Clinton says, could be extremely dangerous. And, she adds, this “cavalier attitude” of his extends to nuclear weapons. We’re trying to decrease proliferation, she says, and Trump is on the campaign trail saying that he wouldn’t rule out using nuclear weapons, or try to stop other nations from acquiring them. “A man who can be provoked by a tweet should not be near the nuclear codes,” Clinton says. Trump says that’s an old line. Clinton responds by saying that it’s still appropriate.

10:27 Back to NATO, Trump says we can’t afford to defend Japan while, at the same time, they’re making so much money from us as a trade partner. “They might need to do it themselves,” he says. Later he adds, “We cannot be the policemen of the world.”

10:28 When asked if he’d ever use nukes first, Trump says, “I certainly would not do a first strike.” But, he then adds, “I can’t take anything off the table,” totally contradicting what he’d said just previously.

10:29 Clinton says that world leaders who she knows are concerned about what Trump would do in office. “Words matter when you run for president,” says Clinton, “and they really matter when you are president.” She then explains to all of our allies who are listening that, if elected, she will honor our obligations. “Our word is good,” she says. She then adds that she would govern with “strength in accordance with our values,” if elected President.

10:31 Trump goes back to saying that Clinton is wrong to announce her plan for taking on ISIS. This, he implies, is why he’s not coming forward with any plans on how to combat terrorism. “It’s a secret plan,” Clinton says.

10:33 Trump says that Clinton had years and years to fix these problems that face us and didn’t do it. This, he says, is why he should be elected president… because, in her thirty plus years of public service, she did not deliver lasting world peace.

10:34 Lester Holt asked Trump what he meant a few weeks ago when he said of his opponent, “She doesn’t have a presidential look.” Trump says he meant that she didn’t have the “stamina” for the job. Clinton responds by saying that she knows a thing or two about stamina, having traveled to 112 countries, negotiated cease fires, brokered trade deals, etc. Talk to me about stamina, she says to Trump, a full day of congressional questioning. It’s noted by both Holt and Clinton that he’s not answering the question as to what he meant by his female opponent not having a “presidential look.” Here’s the full exchange.

10:35 Trump agrees that she has experience. “But it’s bad experience,” he adds. And, he says, “We can’t affording anther four years of that kind of experience.”

10:36 The subject of sexism comes up again, and the fact that Trump has called women pigs, dogs and slobs. Clinton mentions that, during a Miss Universe pageant several years ago, Trump referred to a Latina participant as “Miss Housekeeping” because of her nationality. He also, she says, called her “Miss Piggy” because of her weight. Clinton mentions her by name, says she’s now an American citizen, and tells Trump that she’ll be voting. [Former Miss Universe Alicia Machado just became an american citizen last week so that she could vote against Trump.]

10:38 Trump says that the ads Clinton is running against him aren’t “nice.” He says he doesn’t deserve that. He also says that, if he’d wanted to, he could say very bad things about her and her family. [After the debate, appearing on Fox News, Trump says he could have mentioned her husband’s infidelities.]

Speaking the day after the debate, Vice President Biden had the following to say in response to Trump’s comment about how he was “smart” for not paying taxes.

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74 Comments

  1. Bob
    Posted September 26, 2016 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    I kinda think he’s beating her up. Facts be damned. He pinned NAFTA on her. If he sticks to this narrative, and doesn’t fuck up, he can beat her.

  2. Posted September 26, 2016 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    If I find a Daniel Pinkwater book about an orange rich guy who lives in a big, fat, ugly bubble, I’ll let you know.

  3. EOS
    Posted September 26, 2016 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    I can’t believe any progressive would give Hillary a dime after seeing how she treated Bernie.

  4. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Not a huge HRC fan (neoliberal aristo and all) but it will be such overwhelming, deliciously dark jouissance to watch all the miserable petit bourgeois white power Baby Boomer human filth lose to someone they utterly despise. On that glorious day, the shrill wailing and gnashing of teeth amongst deluded Alt Right and cognitively impaired, pain killer addled 50-70 yr old whites will break windows, it will be heard from space, and I will gleefully be deafened soaking it in.

  5. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I think Bob is right that if he can pin NAFTA on her, he could win. It bugs me though because NAFTA hasnt really been as bad as he claims and really the problem is guys like him who move production to the cheapest possible places.

  6. Demetrius
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    @ Thom

    “… miserable petit bourgeois white power Baby Boomer human filth … deluded Alt Right and cognitively impaired, pain killer addled 50-70 yr old whites …”

    I’m not a huge Trump fan (lying, narcissistic douche and all) but I fail to see how vilifying his supporters this way is helpful or constructive. Of course, some Trump supporters are racist, sexist, and/or otherwise hateful … but I suspect many more are simply fearful about the future, feel left behind by forces beyond their control, and perhaps feel disrespected by better-educated (and often wealthier) “elites.”

    Of course there is no excuse for supporting or voting for Trump, but given that he and Clinton are now neck-and-neck in the polls, isn’t it possible that he is tapping into something more powerful – and meaningful – than initially meets the eye?

    Since I refuse to believe that approximately half of American voters are “cognitively impaired,” or “human filth,” I think it is worth asking: What is *really* going on with these voters, and why has Clinton (and the Democratic Party) seemingly written them off?

  7. Kat
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    Trump’s sniffling is a sign of advanced cancer of the head and neck. He won’t survive through the winter.

  8. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    I’m not a strategist for the Democratic Party, I would definitely not consider myself a supporter generally of any bourgeois reformer, neo-liberal democrats running for temporary figurehead of plutocratic US bourgeois democracy. My former comments are as close to an endorsement as possible of HRC as I, a Communist, can get: “not a fan of”. I have observed those I vilified first hand, they are real, they are surrounding you, and I hate them more than I care about US politics, something I as a red blooded American am in a grand tradition of. For reasons broader than this discussion, I believe whatever evental conflagration that will be unleashed among rightist revolutionaries towards the federal government and libs will happen regardless of who wins. Trump’s support is not monolithic, and there are some interesting Left theoretical/nihilist reasons for voting Trump, but many members of his support could justly be liquidated building the Gulag, and there would be absolutely no loss to humanity whatsoever. Grow up, these people are trash, they’re going to commit terrorist attacks when Trump loses, to hell with them.

  9. Kim
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t seen his statement about having the support of 200 generals and admirals debunked yet. Is that a real thing? Do our career soldiers want Trump as their Commander in Chief? Driving into work this morning, I heard a young military man being interviewed about the debate. He said that he’d be voting for Trump as he has the “command presence” to be President. He said it’s important to him as a self described “alpha male” to have other alpha males above him in the chain of command. I took for that comment that he would never vote for a woman.

  10. Lynne
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Demetrius, I think the thing he is tapping into is a perceived loss of status. And that is the trouble. They are right. Their status *is* diminishing. When racism, systemic or otherwise, gives you the best paying jobs, access to the best neighborhoods at prices you can afford, better schools, etc it really does mean lower wages, higher housing costs, and less resources for your kid’s education but even without those hurdles, status itself is a powerful thing that people don’t want to lose. I see so much of this in his rhetoric which so closely resembles the fights for status on schoolyards we call “bullying”.

    So what do you do when the only real way one group can get what they want is at the expense of other groups? What if that group wants more than their fair share? Is it even possible to address this in a way that group would not take as an insult?

  11. Matt
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, they’re exactly the same. Democrats want to cut taxes for rich people, criminalize abortion, remove marriage equality and ostracize gays, oppose sensible gun regulation, oppose the right of workers to organize, oppose raising the minumum wage, repeal Obamacare (and go back to the days of pre-existing condition exclusions and insurance that would drop you the second you got sick so you would DIE), support privatizing schools, prisons, and other government programs, oppose expanding unemployment benefits and food stamps, oppose solar and wind power, want more dirty fossil fuel energy, oppose student loan forgiveness, oppose legalizing marijuana, and oppose GMO labels. OH WAIT, NO THEY DON’T, THAT’S THE REPUBLICANS. I have really HAD it with this “they’re all the same” BS, because that’s what it is, BS. If you don’t think the Democratic Party is liberal enough, you certainly have a right to think that, but in a system of two parties and two parties alone, that thought also becomes your obligation to GET IN THERE AND GET INVOLVED AND MAKE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY MORE LIBERAL

  12. Taco Farts
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 3:10 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, your questions remind me of the last few episodes of Game of Thrones. The slave-holders just could not bear a world where they were not allowed to own slaves eternally.

    If you don’t know what happens next, I won’t spoil it, but it seems like a valid option.

  13. Meta
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Video of Miss Universe Alicia Machado talking about her dealings with Trump.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ZM58O_gBo

  14. alan2102
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    Demetrious: “I fail to see how vilifying his supporters this way is helpful or constructive”

    It is helpful and constructive in inflaming the prejudices, fueling the arrogance, and shoring up the egos of the smug rich corporate “liberal” (faux-left) highly-corruption-tolerant perpetual-war-and-mass-murder-supporting baby boomer and gen-x-er human filth partially described here:
    http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

    also here:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-johnson/fact-check-this-arrogance_b_9516062.html

    also here:
    https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/

    “Corrupt elites always try to persuade people to continue to submit to their dominance in exchange for protection from forces that are even worse. That’s their game. But at some point, they themselves, and their prevailing order, become so destructive, so deceitful, so toxic, that their victims are willing to gamble that the alternatives [e.g. Trump] will not be worse, or at least, they decide to embrace the satisfaction of spitting in the faces of those who have displayed nothing but contempt and condescension for them.”

    See also Chris Hedges’ “Death of the Liberal Class”.

    Over the last 40 years the Democratic Party jettisoned everything that might prevent the appearance of a Trump, and has instead embraced all the stuff that impelled the appearance of Trump, and that impels the future appearance of another (worse) Trump. As someone said on counterpunch a few days ago: “Trump is the symptom. Clinton is the disease.” Spot on! Anti-Trump diatribes and agitation are a circle-jerk conducted by those who can’t look at themselves, and who can’t fathom how we got into this mess, much less how we might get out. They don’t get it, and they’ll never get it. Fortunately, the older boomers (Clinton/DNC morons, mostly) will start dying off soon, to be replaced by millennials who seem to be smarter, less corrupt, and more authentically progressive. Millennials are not so readily eating the shit sandwiches served up by the Democrats. So there’s hope, but it will take some years yet.

  15. Demetrius
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    @ Matt

    “If you don’t think the Democratic Party is liberal enough, you certainly have a right to think that, but in a system of two parties and two parties alone, that thought also becomes your obligation to GET IN THERE AND GET INVOLVED AND MAKE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY MORE LIBERAL.”

    Um, I think some people recently tried to do exactly that … but Hillary Clinton, Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the DNC used every tool at their disposal to shut that down

    Just sayin’ …

  16. R. Thomas
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Why didn’t Holt ask The Donald about the “2nd Amendment People” he encouraged to kill his rival?

  17. Dan Rather by proxy
    Posted September 27, 2016 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    Ladies and gentlemen, whatever civility once existed in our politics is tonight officially dead. Never in the history of televised debates have we witnessed such a show. And that’s what the Donald wanted. A show. He got it, but will he be seen as the hero or the villain?

    If you are a fan of Hillary Clinton, I suspect you are thrilled with her poised and confident performance. Perhaps her crowning line was “I prepared for this debate and I’m prepared to be President”. If you are a fan of Donald Trump, his quarrelsome, no-holds-barred approach, often facts be damned, will likely in turn have thrilled you. The question is what does everybody else watching think and how many impressionable voters remain?

    Taking a snapshot of the debate stage this evening, two candidates behind podiums, each representing one of the major political parties, it would seem to be the latest chapter in our quadrennial dance with democracy. But experiencing the event, in sound and motion, it was of course anything but.

    From the very beginning, the body language tonight was striking. HIllary Clinton, the first woman ever to be on this stage was calm and substantive. Donald Trump interrupted often and slouched and sneered as he turned to address her. This is what Trump’s fans like about him, playing the alpha male at all costs. Clinton seemed completely unflustered, which is what her fans love about her. How this all plays to the majority of viewers and voters at home will be in the eyes of the beholder.

    But I was surprised by how much this man who has made so much of the means of television spent not looking into the camera, but preoccupied with his adversary. Trump came across as amped, a pacing tiger ready to pounce on every answer. His Interruptions suggests little regard to the rules. He’s itching for a fight…Wants to swing wildly.

    At one point early in the debate Clinton, after multiple factually questionable assertions by Trump said, “I have a feeling by the end of this debate I’ll be blamed for everything that ever happened,” Clinton said. Trump replied, “Why not?” That about summed it up.

    Clinton clearly wanted to get under Trump’s skin. She attacked him for getting a hefty amount of money from his dad, challenging the narrative that he was a self-made man. And then attacking his business practices. The headline she was aiming for is Donald the Deadbeat. And then on the issue of Trump’s unreleased tax returns, when Clinton says that was because he may not have paid any taxes, Trump responded, “that makes me smart.” Expect to hear more about this.

    Clinton was clearly the policy expert, nimbly jumping from topic to topic, policy to policy. But she was also much more able to paint a big picture than I have seen in times past. I thought she was particularly effective on the issue of race and especially the birther lie against President Obama. She had the facts on her side, but also it was an effective appeal to fire up her base.

    In the end, more than all of the specifics, I was struck by how unprecedented was the overall tenor – matching that of the campaign. We once held certain truths to be “self-evident” – that “all men are created equal” and “they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” These were the lofty ideals that served as a rallying cry for the founders of these United States to choose liberty over tyranny. The man who wrote these words, Thomas Jefferson, and his compatriots were imperfect and in some cases deeply flawed men. Yet their idealism fixed a North Star in our democratic firmament that has guided our ship of state ever since, with some very noted moral detours. Now I fear that the tide of progress is rapidly receding with the fierce undertow of a looming tsunami.

    Our Founders believed in reason and the power of intellect. Donald Trump made clear tonight by his wilful ignorance of important issues that he does not. Our founders feared the accumulation of power, they loathed vanity, and tried to build in protections against the demagogues who would appeal to mankind’s basest instincts. Donald Trump relishes in all of these impulses. For him they are instinctual and a prescription for success.

    To call Trump a con man, as many have, is a disservice to the art of the con. By its definition a con requires deceit. But Trump has not tried to hide his lies or the sheer unrealistic audacity of his cartoonish policy positions. He has asked the American people to bet on him. The fact checkers will certainly weigh in. The pundits will have their say. But the voters have all the information they need. The judgement is in their – or more accurately our – hands.

  18. Eel
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    EOS, where were the neurological spasms, or was this one of Hillary’s doubles?

  19. Meta
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Clinton is beginning to get a number of conservative papers endorsing her.

    The most recent is the Arizona Republic, which endorsed Clinton today. It is the first time in 126 years that the Republic has endorsed a Democrat.

    “The challenges the United States faces domestically and internationally demand a steady hand, a cool head and the ability to think carefully before acting,” they wrote. “Hillary Clinton understands this. Donald Trump does not. Clinton has the temperament and experience to be president. Donald Trump does not. Clinton knows how to compromise and to lead with intelligence, decorum and perspective. She has a record of public service as First Lady, senator and secretary of state. She has withstood decades of scrutiny so intense it would wither most politicians. The vehemence of some of the anti-Clinton attacks strains credulity.”

    The Republic’s editorial board went on to say, “n a nation with an increasingly diverse population, Trump offers a recipe for permanent civil discord. In a global economy, he offers protectionism and a false promise to bring back jobs that no longer exist. America needs to look ahead and build a new era of prosperity for the working class. This is Hillary Clinton’s opportunity. She can reach out to those who feel left behind. She can make it clear that America sees them and will address their concerns. She can move us beyond rancor and incivility. The Arizona Republic endorses Hillary Clinton for president.”

    Read more:
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/09/27/arizona_republic_writes_mic_drop_endorsement_of_hillary_clinton.html

    Other conservative papers have also recently gotten onboard with Clinton.

    From NPR:

    Several newspaper editorial boards that have traditionally, some almost faithfully, gone for the Republican candidate have endorsed the Democratic nominee this time around.

    In its first Democratic endorsement in a century, The Cincinnati Enquirer endorsed Clinton on Friday. The last Democrat the board supported was Woodrow Wilson in 1916.

    “Hillary Clinton has her faults, certainly, but she has spent a lifetime working to improve the lives of Americans both inside and outside of Washington,” the board wrote. “It’s time to elect the first female U.S. president – not because she’s a woman, but because she’s hands-down the most qualified choice.”

    The Dallas Morning News also endorsed Clinton in early September.

    “This newspaper has not recommended a Democrat for the nation’s highest office since before World War II — if you’re counting, that’s more than 75 years and nearly 20 elections,” the board wrote.

    Also in Texas, The Houston Chronicle endorsed Clinton in late July, saying that to choose Donald Trump “is to repudiate the most basic notions of competence and capability.” Although the newspaper’s board endorsed President Obama in 2008, it traditionally has endorsed Republican presidential candidates.

    Trump has yet to receive an endorsement from any major daily newspaper editorial board, although many newspapers have yet to publish an official endorsement. A few boards, like the ones at The Richmond Times-Dispatch and The Winston-Salem Journal, have endorsed Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson.

    Read more:
    http://www.npr.org/2016/09/24/495306873/newspaper-endorsements-matter-most-when-theyre-unexpected

  20. Fleeta Jay
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    Yes, Trump is not the worst they can do… in fact he is somewhat moderate compared to Cruz and Rubio. Look out for the Paul family…

  21. Shane Davis
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    Trump is a symptom of the cancer eating away at America. The cancer is fear caused by television programming and ignorance caused by an eroding education system.

  22. Janette Rook
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    I think education funding & strategy is important, but how do we incentivize good character? It seems like all that matters is who has the most money & loudest, toughest bully. Strongman rule. If we could take the private/corporate money out politics & fix gerrymandering debacle, maybe we could get some tangible things done to change this mess.

  23. Stephen
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    They were smart to use Hillary’s healthiest double for the first debate.

  24. Mark Tucker
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    Mark is spot on. It’s our own capitalist greed that created, celebrated, and elevated a person like Trump to a position of insane power. Unless we look hard in the mirror this isn’t the last “Trump” we give the keys to.

  25. Donald Harrison
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    I agree with your post Mark – many micro movements matter – so let’s make sure we do our part to help post election. I think we’ve been long overdue for a “software update and/or “system reboot” of our version of democracy.

  26. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Eel,

    I was thinking her “shoulder shake” might have been a cover for a muscle spasm.

  27. Eel
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Good eye, EOS. Very perceptive.

  28. Anonymous
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    So he can sniffle the whole way through and there’s no health concern, but she shrugs her shoulders once and she’s masking a neurological muscle spasm. You’re really something else, EOS.

  29. K. Baker
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    My fear is no matter what Trump does those who are planning to vote for him will do so no matter he does. This might be true:

    Trump: “I could shoot somebody and not lose voters.”

    CNN Video:
    http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/01/23/donald-trump-iowa-rally-shooting-sot.cnn

  30. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    K. Baker,
    I was thinking the same for Clinton supporters. Is there anything she could do that would make you less likely to vote for her? What if every intelligent person refused to vote for either of these two? Would we be more likely to get decent candidates next time? Third party everyone?

  31. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Anonymous,

    I think there may be a significant difference between a cold or allergy and a debilitating disorder like Parkinson’s or a blood clot on the brain stem. Don’t you?

  32. Eel
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    “A blood clot at the brainstem.” You are hilarious, EOS.

  33. Patrick
    Posted September 28, 2016 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Trump probably could shoot someone and not lose, but if he shot himself, would they all still vote for him?
    And how could an alpha male be subservient to another male, as in the military? Would that not make him a beta or lower?

  34. Posted September 29, 2016 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    EOS, in addition to being an expert on pool chemicals, is an expert at diagnosing neurological disorders by watching television.

  35. alan2102
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/09/27/clinton-trump-and-the-death-of-idealism/
    “With Clinton’s election certainly Trump the candidate can be defeated. But with another Wall Street Democrat in the White House the right-wing demagoguery of Trumpism is only likely to grow more emboldened, more bitter, and more menacing. With Clinton in office essentially nothing will be done to reverse the growing wealth divide in the country. Nothing will be done to create millions of secure, well-paid new jobs, based on a solid manufacturing economy. Nothing will be done to find alternatives to mass incarceration. And nothing will be done to end the permanent war economy that has made the United States the leading global purveyor of war and militarism. However, while economic and social justice will remain elusive, much White House “concern” will be expressed and maybe even a few “task forces” created. And the country will grow angrier.”

    The Democratic Party is the disease, Trumpism is the symptom. The symptoms will get worse, because the disease is getting worse (much worse, as of this cycle).

  36. Anonymous
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 6:14 am | Permalink

    EOS, you are a blood clot at the brainstem of democracy.

  37. alan2102
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Meta: “Clinton is beginning to get a number of conservative papers endorsing her”

    Not only newspapers. And FAR worse than mere conservatives. An amazing, truly amazing flood of the worst far-right assholes and mass murder proponents on the planet have come out for Hillary, including Michael Ledeen, Max Boot, Robert Kagan, Henry Kissinger, and many others of similar ilk. Hillary is THE darling of warmongering fascist pigs, and for good reason: she is among them. I have not checked, but it wouldn’t be surprising if she got the official endorsement of the Nazi Party.

    Curiously, none of these assholes have any use for Trump. Trump is too dangerous for them. Under Trump, there is the possibility (not a likelihood, but a possibility) that peaceful and cooperative relations might break out, especially with Russia, and that is unacceptable. Trump’s stand on TPP and trade is also unacceptable.

    Bizarre beyond belief that Trump could be running to the left of HRC on critical issues.

  38. M
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 7:49 am | Permalink

    This conversation with EOS reminds me of that time when Bill Frist diagnosed Terry Schiavo on Senate floor based on a video clip that he’d seen.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBYk4F164Hk

  39. Meta
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    This will likely cost him votes with conservatives in Miami.

    From today’s Newsweek: “HOW DONALD TRUMP’S COMPANY VIOLATED THE UNITED STATES EMBARGO AGAINST CUBA”

    Documents show that the Trump company spent a minimum of $68,000 for its 1998 foray into Cuba at a time when the corporate expenditure of even a penny in the Caribbean country was prohibited without U.S. government approval. But the company did not spend the money directly. Instead, with Trump’s knowledge, executives funneled the cash for the Cuba trip through an American consulting firm called Seven Arrows Investment and Development Corporation. Once the business consultants traveled to the island and incurred the expenses for the venture, Seven Arrows instructed senior officers with Trump’s company—then called Trump Hotels & Casino Resorts—how to make it appear legal by linking it after-the-fact to a charitable effort.

    The payment by Trump Hotels came just before the New York business mogul launched his first bid for the White House, seeking the nomination of the Reform Party. On his first day of the campaign, he traveled to Miami where he spoke to a group of Cuban-Americans, a critical voting bloc in the swing state. Trump vowed to maintain the embargo and never spend his or his companies’ money in Cuba until Fidel Castro was removed from power.

    He did not disclose that, seven months earlier, Trump Hotels already had reimbursed its consultants for the money they spent on their secret business trip to Havana.

    At the time, Americans traveling to Cuba had to receive specific U.S. government permission, which was only granted for an extremely limited number of purposes, such as humanitarian efforts. Neither an American nor a company based in the United States could spend any cash in Cuba; instead a foreign charity or similar sponsoring entity needed to pay all expenses, including travel. Without obtaining a license from the federal Office of Foreign Asset Control before the consultants went to Cuba, the undertaking by Trump Hotels would have been in violation of federal law, trade experts say.

    Officials with the Trump campaign and the Trump Organization did not respond to emails seeking comment on the Cuba trip, further documentation about the endeavor or an interview with Trump. Richard Fields, who was then the principal in charge of Seven Arrows, did not return calls seeking comment.

    But a former Trump executive who spoke on condition of anonymity said the company did not obtain a government license prior to the trip. Internal documents show that executives involved in the Cuba project were still discussing the need for federal approval after the trip had taken place.

    Read more:
    http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/14/donald-trump-cuban-embargo-castro-violated-florida-504059.html

  40. iRobert
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    EOS occasionally shows remarkable insight into how rigged everything really is, but he so often lets his fantasies get the best of him and ends up way off on some pretty easily understood details.

    CNN did one of the only polls which was at least somewhat scientific and concluded that 62% of viewers thought Hillary had “won” the “debate,” while only 27% thought Trump did.

    The fact that Trump violated the embargo against Cuba could be enough to cost him Florida, and likely the election. Still, I predict he does much more over the next 40 days to destroy his chances of winning Florida or Ohio.

  41. EOS
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Robert,
    Somewhat scientific doesn’t really count either. CNN polled mostly Democrats or Democratically leaning persons. Waiting for some real polls.

  42. Anonymous
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

    EOS have you considered the very real possibility that Clinton might already be dead and that what we’re seeing is George Soros wearing her body like a snuggie? My theory is that she killed herself having run out of friends to murder.

  43. stupid hick
    Posted September 29, 2016 at 9:30 pm | Permalink

    The Arizona Republic sums it up nicely. I wish the Republicans could offer a credible candidate. I wish they would have been principled enough to repudiate Trump. I don’t want any part of what the Republicans have become. They need to decide who they represent, rational conservatives or self-serving racist blowhards. They deserve a severe thrashing in November. Not just for their own good, but for the good of the country. Look, I have a few problems with Clinton, but after watching the debate I have no question she would at least be a credible president. I’m going to vote Clinton. EOS, you should too.

  44. EOS
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 5:15 am | Permalink

    Hillary is evil. I would never vote for her.

  45. Posted September 30, 2016 at 6:44 am | Permalink

    Why does God allow Hillary Clinton?

  46. EOS
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    Peter,
    God created people with free will and the ability to choose evil, instead of robotic drones acting out of compulsion. But He wants to spend eternity with only those people who freely choose to love Him.

  47. stupid hick
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    EOS, fair enough, if you sincerely believe that. I could be wrong to disagree, but after long consideration, I’ve concluded that my negative feelings about Clinton have probably been shaped more by a decade of dishonest right wing attacks, than anything she actually did or stands for. The snakes that have captured the Republican party think we’re credulous idiots with short memories. They’ve been wrong about Obama too. Hillary has problems, but listen to her own words with an open mind, and observe how she handles Trump in the debate. We all have problems. I forgive her for hers. I sense she’s more good than evil and despite her problems, I think she’s good enough to be president. Definitely not a disaster as the right wing media and Republicans claim. Look, they’re trying to tell us Trump would be better? It’s insulting they play us like that.

  48. kjc
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    “But He wants to spend eternity with only those people who freely choose to love Him.”

    me too. but then we have things like families, annoying neighbors, crazy blog commenters…

  49. EOS
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    Stupid Hick,

    The Republican Party, especially the establishment, hate Trump. That’s the best thing going for him.

    The Bushes took over after Bill and had essentially the same foreign policies. Then Obama continued with more of the same. Our country continues to intervene to overthrow sovereign nations – and then leave them decimated. We are now fighting alongside ISIS against Syria and Russia. To what end? Why did we destroy Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya?

    You realize that Hillary first evoked “the vast right wing conspiracy” when responding to reports of her husband’s affair with Jennifer Flowers? Bill later admitted to the relationship in court under oath.

    The parties are allowed to disagree on social issues, and their campaign rhetoric is very dissimilar, but to be elected president they must support an internationalist agenda with the ultimate goal of one world government – a “New World Order”. That has been our agenda since Woodrow Wilson and was entrenched with the formation of the United Nations. Many will call it a crazy conspiracy theory and hope to dissuade anyone from giving it careful consideration, but there is no other rational explanation for the past 60 years of U.S. foreign policy.

    I find it insulting that they are playing us to evoke rabid support of Dems or Reps while they sit back and laugh that we really think it will make a difference. They have the power. They have the money. But we have the vote. Third parties are a great option.

  50. Posted September 30, 2016 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    “But He wants to spend eternity with only those people who freely choose to love Him.”

    Glad I won’t have to spend a single second with Him.

  51. Paul Hickman
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    In my opinion, all of this hate and racism and bigotry and sexism have been there all along, laying out of sight to those it is not directed towards. I, being a white male, rarely saw any of this up close and personal, as it was never directed at me. I only saw it if I just happened to be present when it was applied to the victim by the perpetrator. Now it has come out full bloom and we are seeing it everywhere, even when we are not the one being attacked. The victims of these attacks, be it racial or gender or religion, have always felt it full blunt. This has been going on in our country for centuries.

    The challenge now is for those of us that have been in the dark or have had our heads in the sand to ACT on what we now see so openly and continue to ACT on it to end it. Clearly the victims have not been able to end it on their own. They need help NOW and for a long time in the future. The Donald phenomenon has just dragged all of our demons into the light. Now we must deal with them directly or we will be in very, very, real trouble … all of us.

  52. Lynne
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    EOS is right.
    Third parties are a great option for the right especially. I hope that means you are voting for Gary Johnson! :)

  53. Lynne
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    “But He wants to spend eternity with only those people who freely choose to love Him.”

    On a side note. I was raised in a church where this is exactly what they believe. Their concept of “hell” is simply being apart from God. i.e. as an atheist I am currently living in their version of hell. And it isn’t so bad. LOL. One of my relatives, when I pointed that out, said “Of course it isn’t terrible, God isn’t an A-hole!” That made me laugh but also realize that people really arent being terribly flattering to God when they talk about things like Hell or God only giving eternal live to believers. Anyways, I think at this point, if I were to suddenly develop a belief in God, I would probably stick with that kind of theology.

  54. Eel
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    EOS’s god, it seems, is a fragile white male who only wants to be around people who make him feel good about himself.

  55. EOS
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Everybody will live eternally. How you will spend eternity will be dependent on God’s ultimate judgement. You are free to believe anything you want. I would encourage you to base your beliefs on His book and a personal relationship with Him. God allows life on this earth apart from Him to be relatively good – because the short life on earth will be all the good that a person without faith will ever experience. And eternity is forever.

  56. alan2102
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    EOS, you say a few crazy things, and a few foolish things, but also some highly intelligent and insightful things. None of your detractors here seems willing to give you a fair shake. That’s a shame, and says more about them than about you.

    “The Republican Party, especially the establishment, hate Trump. That’s the best thing going for him.”

    Exactly. And virtually the entirety of the old R establishment has flocked to support HRC. The HRC-bots seem blind to the implications of this, and incapable of seeing the populism vs. elitism aspect of what has unfolded here and elsewhere, recently. The Clinton party IS now the (primary) republican party and the establishment party and the corporate/media party — the party of the elites. To say this does not say anything positive about Trump; it only says what it says. Trump’s populism is dirty, vulgar, and ignorant. It sucks. Nevertheless, it IS a populism, and it opposes elitist bullshit that ought to be opposed, TPP being one shining example. Credit where it is due.

    “The Bushes took over after Bill and had essentially the same foreign policies. Then Obama continued with more of the same. Our country continues to intervene to overthrow sovereign nations – and then leave them decimated. We are now fighting alongside ISIS against Syria and Russia. To what end? Why did we destroy Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya?”

    Great questions! Why, indeed? Don’t hold your breath waiting for DP-bots to answer. They have no answer. Most of them don’t give a shit. The death, maiming and/or destitution and misery of a few million brown people, thousands of miles away, is no big deal, relative to crucial, world-historic issues like gay marriage, tranny bathrooms, and equal pay for highly-privileged middle-class females in California and New York.

    “The parties are allowed to disagree on social issues, and their campaign rhetoric is very dissimilar, but to be elected president they must support an internationalist agenda with the ultimate goal of one world government – a “New World Order”. ”

    Close, but no cigar. You’re looking at things through a slightly- (and partially understandably-) paranoid isolationistic anti-government lens. That lens has a few things to recommend it, but it is limited. A better lens will reveal that the internationalist agenda is a neo-fascistic, neo-feudalistic corporate agenda with the ultimate goal of global economic domination, permanent highly-profitable war and murder, permanent highly-profitable police statism, prisons and “security” apparatus, permanent highly-profitable production of shiny consumer goods for the lucky upper 10% while billions scramble to survive on scraps. Etcetera. That IS the “new world order”, coming into view as we speak, fully supported by the Democratic Party.

  57. EOS
    Posted September 30, 2016 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    Alan 2102,

    Thanks for the excellent post. I agree 100% with your view of the internationalist agenda, adding only that the Media and University elites are also aligned.

  58. stupid hick
    Posted October 1, 2016 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    “The death, maiming and/or destitution and misery of a few million brown people, thousands of miles away, is no big deal”

    I think this an apt description of the “populists” who support Trump. You could remove “thousands of miles away” and it would be more succinct.

  59. Westside
    Posted October 1, 2016 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    The comments section here has become a meeting space for the Alt-left and Alt-right. I’m going to Argus to get a coffee and talk football. Go blue!

  60. This Just In...
    Posted October 3, 2016 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    From CNN:

    Hillary Clinton has emerged from the first presidential debate with a five-point lead over Donald Trump in the race for the presidency, according to a new CNN/ORC Poll.

    The survey found Clinton topping Trump 47% to 42% among likely voters. Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson was at 7% and the Green Party’s Jill Stein at 2%.

    Most interviews in the survey were completed before Saturday night’s revelation that Trump may have avoided income taxes for the last 18 years, but the results indicated that 73% of respondents thought Trump should release his tax returns for public review.

  61. Amy
    Posted October 3, 2016 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    Ummm…I just have to write this, been holding it in….
    The more that comes out about Trump and his business practices, like taking contractor to court to NOT pay them and avoiding taxes…the more I am convinced Trump is Stewart Beal’s idol and I bet he keeps Art of the Deal on his bedside table.

    that is all

  62. EOS
    Posted October 3, 2016 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Any guesses on what Assange will release tomorrow?

  63. Lynne
    Posted October 3, 2016 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    I would be very surprised if he has anything new.

  64. Posted October 3, 2016 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Whatever Putin gives him, I suppose.

  65. Anonymous
    Posted October 4, 2016 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    The answer, EOS, is nothing.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/04/trump-backers-feel-played-as-wikileaks-fails-to-come-through-on-october-surprise/?tid=sm_fb

  66. Kit
    Posted October 4, 2016 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    What now, EOS!!!!

  67. alan2102
    Posted October 4, 2016 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Mark, that fellow-traveler Assange has Putin’s private cell number. They frequently discuss their plans to promote communist infiltration of the U.S. government, which is already largely complete.

    Odd that “progressives” are channeling Joe McCarthy. I guess it goes with “progressives” now in bed with warmongering mass murderers, “progressives” supporting TPP, “progressives”… ad nauseam.

    https://theintercept.com/2016/08/08/dems-tactic-of-accusing-adversaries-of-kremlin-ties-and-russia-sympathies-has-long-history-in-us/
    Democrats’ Tactic of Accusing Critics of Kremlin Allegiance Has Long, Ugly History in U.S.

  68. alan2102
    Posted October 4, 2016 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Westside: “the comments section here has become a meeting space for the Alt-left and Alt-right”

    The “alt left” does not really exist except in the minds of a few people who’ve taken too seriously the anti-“SJW”/anti-feminist/anti-anti-racist hysteria on the right and think that something new (“alt”) might be in order. They think that the anti-SJW cranks have actually identified a significant aspect of the left which renders an “alt” fork an appropriate response. Perhaps they are correct if you assume the typical ignorant twit that they revile as an SJW to be representative of the left. But that’s a lame assumption.

    What we have now is:
    Conventional Right: Hillary
    Alt-Right: Trump
    [hence, as usual, one political party with two right wings, as Gore Vidal put it]
    Left: Stein
    Other (strange hybrid): Johnson

  69. Lynne
    Posted October 4, 2016 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    Actually, Clinton’s platform is very nearly as left wing as Stein’s. Stein is standard left wing but with some crazy thrown in such as with pandering to the far left anti-vax types. I don’t buy this notion that Clinton is as conservative as a Republican. Even the past more reasonable ones.

  70. EOS
    Posted October 4, 2016 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

    Maybe Assange is trying to leverage a deal with the Obama administration like the one the arms dealer just got who had information that would hurt Hillary’s campaign. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/marc-turi-libyan-rebels-hillary-clinton-229115

  71. alan2102
    Posted October 4, 2016 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Lynn: that’s the impression you might get, if your main information sources are right-wing mainstream media (i.e. the entirety of mainstream media). The reality is that it is not even close. Stein has a FAR more progressive platform than Hillary, (can you say Green New Deal?), and unlike Hillary she actually means it. Hillary can’t be judged by pious platform statements that, based on what we’ve actually seen of her over 30 years, she will certainly not abide when actually in office. Stein has deep progressive convictions; Hillary has a few tepid progressive-like position-ettes, certain to be abandoned once they’ve done their job of misleading voters, alongside her far-right militarism and corporate toadyism. We know a whole lot about HRC from her tenure as SoS: very ugly, and inexcusable. She literally LAUGHS at brutal murder (e.g. of S Hussein), and enthusiastically supported the destruction of whole nations (e.g. Libya). She has always been on the side of the military/”security”/prison complex, the banks and the corporations, etc., etc., from way back. She’s awful. And that’s the reason why she cannot maintain a lead over a narcissistic billionaire bloviator with an orange pompadour. If she were not so awful she would be up by 20 points at least. Darth Vader would be up on Trump by a wider margin. Trump actually has a serious chance of winning, and the reason is Hillary’s awfulness, and the stupidity and corruption of the Democratic Party in nominating her to begin with.

    The anti-vax thing (v/v Stein) is a lie, as you would know if you were paying attention to valid sources, starting with Jill Stein herself.

    Try reading up on authentically left sites, e.g. counterpunch:
    https://www.google.com/search?&q=hillary+clinton++site%3Acounterpunch.org

    … or wsws.org (world socialist website):
    https://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=hillary+clinton++site%3Awsws.org

    There are others, but that’s a start.

  72. Meta
    Posted October 6, 2016 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    If Trump’s numbers continue to fall, according to the New York Times, it’s possible that the Republican party will abandon him in hopes of keeping control of Congress.

    Donald J. Trump’s support has plunged across the swing-state map over the last 10 days, wiping out his political recovery from September and threatening to undo weeks of Republican gains in the battle for control of Congress.

    For his party, Mr. Trump’s reversal in fortune comes at the worst possible moment: Having muted their criticism of Mr. Trump in hopes that he could at least run competitively through Election Day, Republicans must decide in the next few days, rather than weeks, whether to seek distance from his wobbly campaign.

    Should Mr. Trump falter badly in his second debate with Hillary Clinton on Sunday in St. Louis, Republican congressional candidates may take it as a cue to flee openly from their nominee, said two senior Republicans involved at high levels of the campaign who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss private party strategy.
    Mr. Trump has already slipped perceptibly in public polls, trailing widely this week in Pennsylvania and by smaller margins in Florida and North Carolina — three states he cannot afford to lose. But private polling by both parties shows an even more precipitous drop, especially among independent voters, moderate Republicans and women, according to a dozen strategists from both parties who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the data was confidential.

    Mr. Trump’s erratic behavior last week after his poor performance in the first debate with Mrs. Clinton — attacking a former beauty pageant winner over her weight, and making an issue of the Clintons’ marriage — has alarmed a number of Republican senators, including Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the majority leader. Mr. McConnell expressed concern that Mr. Trump might not have bottomed out yet and could lose even more support among women, according to a Republican official who spoke on the condition of anonymity to recount a private conversation.

    If the roller-coaster dip in Mr. Trump’s standing has heightened anxieties among Republican officials and political operatives, a steady if unspectacular performance by his running mate, Gov. Mike Pence of Indiana, in the vice-presidential debate on Tuesday failed to quiet their nerves.

  73. iRobert
    Posted October 8, 2016 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    You’re getting warmer, EOS

  74. Posted October 13, 2016 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Here’s that more scientific poll you were waiting for, EOS. Hillary was closer to 53 percent, so the CNN number was significantly inflated (by 9%). However, only 18 percent said Trump won, so the CNN number was inflated on that also (by the same 9%).

    Clinton Trounces Trump in Debate Reactions; Trump’s Unfavorability Edges Up (POLL)

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/298863-poll-clinton-trounced-trump-in-first-debate

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  1. By What did you make of the vice presidial debate? on October 5, 2016 at 5:26 am

    […] of State Hillary Clinton and failed businessman turned reality television personality Donald Trump, I live-blogged the whole thing, investing several hours of my time. As it only translated to 11 “likes” on Facebook, […]

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