“I really don’t care”

As I remember having railed against people who criticized Michelle Obama for her fashion choices, I guess what I’m about to say could come across as a bit hypocritical. In my defense, though, Michelle Obama was a decent human being, and, at least I’m pretty sure, never would have visited a for-profit concentration camp for children wearing a jacket emblazoned with the words, “I really don’t care, do you?”

And I know it sounds like it can’t possibly be true, but that’s exactly what happened today. With her spokesperson telling the press, “She want’s to see what’s real“… the implication being that the heartbreaking news coverage from the border had not been real… Melania Trump boarded a plane to Texas wearing a jacket designed by the same firm that, a few years back, made headlines for producing skirts emblazoned with the likeness of alt-right mascot Pepe the Frog.

I know this isn’t something we should be spending too much time on… Tonight, for instance, I should probably be writing about our racist President’s quote about how “http://markmaynard.com/2014/09/i-hesitate-to-do-this-as-i-know-its-exactly-what-they-want-but-fuck-urban-outfitters/,” completely ignoring the fact that the country is our third largest trading partner… But I think it’s at least worth noting that this happened in America, on the day after Donald Trump was forced to end his administration’s policy of forced family separation at the southern border. Yes, it may just be a coincidence that our First Lady, herself an immigrant, chose to wear this particular jacket on this particular day, but I suspect it was done purposefully, with he knowledge that photos of the jacket would take away front page real estate that would otherwise have been filled by photos of immigrant kids in cages, and stories about the administration’s several “tender ages” facilities for migrant infants who had been snatched away from their families.

I should add at this point that I hate giving any more attention to Zara, the company that made this jacket, as I know that they must be loving it, the same way that Urban Outfitters relished the free press they received from their blood-stained Kent State sweatshirts a few years back. I can’t help myself, though… Here are two more of the company’s designs, for those of you who are just hearing about them for the first time.

Is the company run by racists? I don’t know. Maybe. Or maybe they’re just people who want to attract free press in order to move a few more of their shitty products? I don’t know that it really matters. Whether they’re doing it because they believe the message, or just because they feel as though they can benefit financially from it, they’re part of the same machine. And it’s the same with Donald Trump. Whether he really believes Mexicans are biologically inferior when he refers to them as “animals” who are “infesting” America, or he just says those things because he knows that it will resonate with the racists who support him, the end result is the same. And, when all is said and done, that’s all that matters. And we have to do a better job of holding theses people accountable for what they say and do.

With that said, I’m not inclined to cut the First Lady any slack here. Whether or not her spokesperson was telling the truth when she said, “there was no hidden message” in the choice of the jacket, the end result is the same. Whether or not she’s truly the heartless monster she appears to be, she made a conscious decision to wear something that she had to know would add fuel to the fire that is currently ravaging America, and there’s no forgiving it. When you wear an item of clothing saying “I don’t care” to a child detention center, it’s not just a sartorial choice.

Personally, I think this was likely planned out, the same way I think it was planned out that Stephen Miller, the author of the President’s policy to separate immigrant children from their families, went to eat at a Mexican restaurant today. I think the administration knows that chaos is what’s keeping them in power, and they’re doing anything they can to not only welcome it, but foster it. They want Latino activists publicly confronting Stephen Miller, and they want our remaining news stations to go after the First Lady. It allows them to shift the narrative and play the victim, like Trump did just a little while ago on Twitter.

One last thing. If, unlike Melania Trump, you really do care, check out this website just put up by Parker Molloy, where you’ll find information on a number of non-profits doing good work with immigrants along our souther border.

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242 Comments

  1. Sad
    Posted June 21, 2018 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    It’s like a right wing koan.

    And it’s kinda punk rock.

  2. Jean Henry
    Posted June 21, 2018 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    Zara is a huge Spanish ‘fast fashion’ retailer with stores all over Europe and the US whose owner is now the second richest man in Europe. He is not especially political. I think this jacket and he Pepe skirt and even the swastika purse form a few years ago were simply blunders. Failures of translation in a few designs from a brand that produces thousands of new designs every two weeks. Most analysts seem to think so. There’s just no indication of more. Melania and Trump live in their own universe where they are the victims.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zara_(retailer)

  3. Jean Henry
    Posted June 21, 2018 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

    As for the white is the new black t, while undoubtedly offensive here, an anthropologist friend studies construction of race etc in Europe, I have learned that whiteness and blackness are viewed differently there, more causally. They are sick with bigotry there too but it’s not quite so insidious as here, where it just seems to seep into everything, making people hyper-sensitive and aware. Its as though the denial of racism here is so intense that it just ends up everywhere. No one could just make that t-shirt because they thought it was cool or funny here. It would have to be made with racists intent here. Not so much elsewhere.

    Again I’m guessing its a translation issue.

  4. ABC
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 5:28 am | Permalink

    Meanwhile, here is the real America…

    Hugging a child, Rep. John Lewis vows action to stop practice of family separation.

    “Just tell me whatever you want me to do. I will go to the borders. I’d get arrested again. If necessary, I’m prepared to go to jail.” abcn.ws/2M77e1x

  5. Kyle Griffin by proxy
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 5:32 am | Permalink

    Attorneys tells WaPo that they have launched a frantic, improvised effort to reunite immigrant parents with their separated children.

    The Texas Civil Rights Project is representing more than 300 parents.

    It has been able to track down only two children.

    https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1009996899368046592

  6. John Brown
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    They are all working for pootin wittingly or not. Confusion, distraction, polarizing. Certainly this was no accident. FSB Honeypot I tell ya.

  7. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:04 am | Permalink

    “Whether he really believes Mexicans are biologically inferior when he refers to them as “animals” who are “infesting” America, or he just says those things because he knows that it will resonate with the racists who support him, the end result is the same.”

    Don’t be an idiot. He said that about people like MS-13 gang members, not “Mexicans.”

  8. Dan Blakeney
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    “there was no hidden message,”. No kidding.

  9. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    If you have to lie to make a point is the point worth making?

  10. Dan Blakeney
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    “there was no hidden message,”. No kidding.

  11. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    “Donald J. Trump

    Verified account

    @realDonaldTrump

    “I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?” written on the back of Melania’s jacket, refers to the Fake News Media. Melania has learned how dishonest they are, and she truly no longer cares!”

    You think it miiight just have something to do with media handling of the hostility to her son displayed by people like Peter “put Barron in a cage with pedophiles” Fonda?

  12. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    Of the people crossing illegally (not at border crossings) and seeking asylum and being detained, only 3% are Mexican. Mexican citizens can simply be returned back across the border to Mexico, families in tact, while citizens of other countries can not.
    Most member of MS-13 are from El Salvador.

  13. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    Mexico allows them to come through if they are going to the USA but turns them back otherwise. Gee, thanks pal.

  14. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:41 am | Permalink

    If they come through Mexico we should be able to send them back to Mexico.

  15. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    “put Barron in a cage with pedophiles”

    Talk about poking the fuckin’ bear! I’d be scared if I was him. Then again if I was him he would be different hahahaha!

  16. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    HW just confirmed what I said about the Trumps living in their own universe in which they are the victims.

    Apparently a tweet by an actor and an FBI investigation are as bad or worse than the separation and internment of families for a Class D misdemeanor. So bad it makes total sense to them to wear a jacket that says ‘I don’t care’ while visiting children ripped from their parents in tents. The Trumps sense of victimization justifies a grand display of failure to empathize.

    I’m glad she wore the jacket so everyone can know just how far removed this populist messaging President and his wife are from on the ground realities.

  17. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    HW– so it’s ok with you if Canada sends any illegal immigrants from other countries who pass through the US back to the US?

    Mexico has every right to refuse to take them on, right?

    Here’s something you should know. We don’t get to dictate the laws of sovereign nations.

  18. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Her jacket was a sarcastic attempt to convey irony. Half of America knows this. Even many of the “non-reading” people, Mark referred to above in a very arrogant and classist way, get it. Although that group Mark referred to might not even know what the word “irony” means, they know what Melania is trying to say and they also understand that you guys don’t get it. Who is being stupid? Who is crippled by their own brain bubble and moral certainty?

    The demonizing many mm.com types do hurts everyone.

  19. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    Sure, then we can send them back to wherever they came from and they can send them home. Mexico has the right to not take them but it is hostile to us to allow them to travel through Mexico if they are going to the USA. They should not have the right to refuse to take them back from us if they came through Mexico. That’s adding insult to injury.

    I do know that. No one should be able to dictate ours either especially with sneaky loopholes that force hearings that most skip out on and get lost in the sauce. We don’t have to have that. It’s crazy. You HAVE to have a hearing if you say the magic words but you can’t be separated from your children so you automatically are released on your own recognizance in the big saucy USA.

  20. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    “Apparently a tweet by an actor and an FBI investigation are as bad or worse than the separation and internment of families for a Class D misdemeanor. ”

    Plus you are subject to deportation so what is the problem?

    For the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal or civil penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both. This is considered a misdemeanor under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559).
    For a subsequent offense, or a reentry (or attempted reentry) after exclusion or deportation, the person can be fined or imprisoned for up to two years, or both. (See 8 U.S.C. Section 1325, 1326, I.N.A. Section 275, 276.) This is considered a low-level felony under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559).

  21. Dan from Austin
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    What Dan B. Said. It’s true that this isn’t a “hidden message” it’s an overt one.
    And unfortunately this kind of display lights his supporters up. They don’t find Shame, they appear to have none, they just cheer them sticking out to the snowflakes or whatever. Fucking ugh.

  22. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    She doesn’t care what she wears to disasters or illegal immigrant child care facilities. Do they care? Yes they do. High level trolling of media here.

  23. Steven Camron
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    It’s hard to imagine that degree of callousness in any human being… but then again I haven’t walked in the shoes of the arrogant ultra-rich billionaire class.

  24. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 9:47 am | Permalink

    FF– I find it fascinating that you object to our ‘demonizing’ of Trump and co. but have no issue with how our president talks about others.

    It’s as though we started this whole business of assholery. Not our damn president. And it’s as though we bear more responsibility than Trump himself.

    Remarkable.

    PS the actual job of media is to ‘troll’ those in power.
    My guess is the jacket was chosen to divert media attention away from the real stories of the kids, their families, and the policies that impact them. The media fell for it. Not the story that need to be told.

  25. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    HW– We are experiencing a farm worker shortage so sever that crops are rotting. We need these migrant laborers, many of whom would normally return to the home country for the off season if we let them as we did for decades back in the ‘good old days.’

    https://www.npr.org/2018/05/03/607996811/worker-shortage-hurts-californias-agriculture-industry

  26. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    You did start the assholery, Jean. Look at all the lies your people told about DJT. Look at the bogus witch hunt, the weaponization of intelligence agencies. Look at how you have treated people here because you believe in enormous lies. Payback is a what?

  27. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    So why don’t we process them and allow them to be guest workers like DJT said? Everyone wins.

  28. John Brown
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Who started the assholery? “Baby killers”, “libtards”, ring any bells?

  29. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    “PS the actual job of media is to ‘troll’ those in power.”

    No it’s not. It’s the propaganda arm of people with international economic power. It should be to communicate true events, not to lie like they do.

  30. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    “Who started the assholery? “Baby killers”, “libtards”, ring any bells?”

    Wasn’t me. Go look at my first posts and look at the assholes trying to pile on me with way worse shit than that. I don’t think I ever said baby killers and I only said libtard one time recently you johnny-come-lately derp. I had a kid gloves policy for months that I changed in self defense. Don’t tell me that shit.

  31. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    Please read the article. Trump limited the guest worker visas for high level jobs, while expanding guest worker visas for hospitality and service workers. The same visas he uses to staff Mara Lago. So farm workers are becoming chamber maids etc. More self-dealing. https://www.vox.com/2018/2/13/16466542/trump-h-2b-guest-workers

  32. kjc
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    “Her jacket was a sarcastic attempt to convey irony.?”

    lol. this makes zero sense. and i’m pretty sure half of america doesn’t know anything. basic basic basic.

  33. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    “The H-2B visa program allows seasonal, *non-agricultural* employers — like hotels and ski resorts — to hire foreign workers when they can’t find American ones.”

  34. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    “Go look at my first posts and look at the assholes trying to pile on me with way worse shit than that.”

    Poor baby. Is the 420 Siberian Bongload that weak?

  35. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    “The H-2B visa program allows seasonal, non-agricultural employers — like hotels and ski resorts — to hire foreign workers when they can’t find American ones.”

    So now it can be expanded to agricultural or make a new program. There is no reason visas can’t be granted for that work too. Do expanded visas and increased border security both. Everyone wins except for criminals.

  36. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    The H-2B visa program has existed since 1987.

  37. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    I think your mind is so weak and your position is so bad there is nothing you can really say about me. You come up with the sorriest shit I have seen out of one of your kind of people (people who see everything completely backwards and are major dickheads.) I have run into a lot of them on the web so that is saying a lot.

  38. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    ‘The H-2B visa program has existed since 1987.”

    Relevance?

  39. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    “I think your mind is so weak and your position is so bad there is nothing you can really say about me. You come up with the sorriest shit I have seen out of one of your kind of people (people who see everything completely backwards and are major dickheads.) I have run into a lot of them on the web so that is saying a lot.”

    lol. The 420 Kushlord waves away the pot smoke and speaks.

  40. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    JH,

    Our president says lots of things I wouldn’t say. I wouldn’t wear Melania’s jacket either but I also believe in interpreting things a) charitably;and b) with honesty.

    For the most part the media is fake as fuck. How is that not obvious? All these great and intelligent, well-read, interpreters with their fingertips in the pulse of culture and politics on mm.com, and yet, nobody noticed that the jacket read: “Really don’t care, do you?” when the hood is down….and the hood was down.

    It was a bold move by Melania. I wouldn’t have done it. Kind of reminds me of a stunt Kanye would pull….And yet the different reactions to the jacket is revealing and interesting to me…

  41. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Nothing wrong with smoking pot which again you know nothing about. You sound so bitter.

  42. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    “the jacket read: “Really don’t care, do you?” when the hood is down”

    They really don’t care about the welfare of the kids. She does. Boom. No doubt they are prioritizing dealing with both trafficked children and gang members. Both great things to care about and do something about.

  43. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    “It was a bold move by Melania. ”

    No, it was a typically stupid move by the reality show in the White House. The White House should be a boring place, instead it has a self interested need to manufacture controversy… for what, exactly?

    Do you really believe that any of the Trumps care at all about the integrity of any media outlet? It seems they happily just watch trash TV all the time anyway. I am unconvinced that any of them read anything at all.

    These people can’t deal with a few people on television talking negatively about them. That is pretty sad. Maybe they should not have gotten into politics at all then.

  44. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    HW– Trumo has promised reform of the H-1B (agricultural) guest worker visas but has not yet acted. congress is incapable of passing this legislation it seems. The H-1b visa restricts workers to one employer which allows for abuse and doesn’t recognize how migrant farm work functions. Workers go to from harvest to harvest and employer to employer. (I worked briefly in the CA big ag sector as a seasonal employee and can attest to this). I hope he does reform it and I agree that legal demo visas are a better solution, but they need to fix that before taking extreme action on the border.

    And all of this is distinct from the issue of asylum. We need immigration is my central point. We need it for our economy, to keep the work here for everyone. The claims about widespread asylum fraud are bogus. You keep repeating Trump talking points and we keep invalidating those claims. You ignore that and repeat them again.

  45. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    “it has a self interested need to manufacture controversy… for what, exactly?” — diversion from the real important stories. Simple as that.

  46. EOS
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    The H-1B Visa program is much more detrimental to our citizens than H-2B. This program allows employers to hire highly skilled foreign workers instead of highly skilled Americans, because immigrants with Masters and PhD’s will work for $20K. Iron Lung might have been employable otherwise.

  47. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    I believe you are right HW.

    The fact that child trafficking and the related border crossing industry controlled by ruthless cartels was never part of the conversation here , except when the issue was forced, continues to be very telling.

  48. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    EOS– apologies I got the name wrong. The H-2a visa applies to ag workers. Not the H-1b. You comments do not apply there. See my posted earlier articles about the ag worker shortage and farms moving operations to Mexico.

  49. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    FF– child trafficking had nothing to do with the family separation of people seeking asylum, where as we have already well established. 90% of the kids are being separated from a parent. You keep trying to make that the central concern and its bullshit. Does child trafficking exist? Yes. But its not why this policy was enacted and its not addressed by the family separation policy.

  50. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    HW– re supposed asylum fraud: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/19/jeff-sessions/jeff-sessions-claim-about-asylum-system-fraudulent/

    second time I posted that but maybe you will read it this time.

  51. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    IL,

    I do wish the Trumps would try to rise above some of their pettiness, vanity and crudeness….This is who they are though…The Trumps deal in the same currency as the tens of thousands of Konald J Crumps we have in Ypsi and bubble brain towns exactly like Ypsi. The big difference is the Trumps are actually good at this kind of game. Trump puts “two on it,with a foot on the neck and a shoe on it”. You guys won’t win these games. You will lose every time. Plus you will look like huge dorks when you meetup for craft brews all wearing the same damn “I really do care dotcom” jackets.

    (Sorry, KJC, I know your jacket is already probably ordered and in the mail.) You will look fine in it. Nothing to worry about.

  52. Anonymous
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Trump peddles lie that reports of suffering children at the border are “phony stories of sadness and grief” bit.ly/2yu1VY6

  53. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    I already posted a homeland security statement that fraudulent asylum claims have gone up 314%. It’s unreasonable to deny it. It doesn’t matter that there are more refugee claims around rest of the world. I think not showing up for a hearing is in fact evidence the claim is fraudulent. If it is that important to them they will show up.

  54. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    FF thinks caring is a joke and requires accessorizing.

    But he bemoans that we are too immature here.

  55. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Asylum claims have gone up 1675%. So it makes sense that the fraudulent ones would as well. In fact it appears that fraudulent claims have gone down.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jun/21/donald-trump/1700-percent-increase-asylum-claims/

  56. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    “In fact it appears that fraudulent claims have gone down” as a percentage of overall claims. To be clear.

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    That is the ones they have found. How many fraudulent claims slip through? It’s not for people fleeing general bad conditions or gang violence or things like that. It’s fear of government persecution. I bet the real number is even higher.

  58. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    No doubt it is up because people are trying to take advantage of the loophole before it gets closed.

  59. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Sessions going back to the true meaning of political asylum.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/13/politics/jeff-sessions-asylum-footnotes/index.html

    Washington (CNN)When Attorney General Jeff Sessions ruled that domestic violence and gang victims are not likely to qualify for asylum in the US, he undercut potentially tens of thousands of claims each year for people seeking protection.

    Trump admin drops asylum protections for domestic violence victims
    Trump admin drops asylum protections for domestic violence victims
    But in a footnote of his ruling, Sessions also telegraphed a desire for more sweeping, immediate reinterpretations of US asylum law that could result in turning people away at the border before they ever see a judge.
    Sessions wrote that since “generally” asylum claims on the basis of domestic or gang violence “will not qualify for asylum,” few claims will meet the “credible fear” standard in an initial screening as to whether an immigrant can pursue their claim before a judge. That means asylum seekers may end up being turned back at the border, a major change from current practice.

  60. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    You are twisting and spinning it again, Jean.

  61. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Not more than our president FF

    HW how can we close loopholes when Trump just killed immigration reform… again.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1010116816998490113

  62. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    FF– please back up your claims that child trafficking has anything to do with the family separation policy. Thanks.

  63. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    I think that every American should be well used to dog whistle politics.

    If tough immigration policies are about keeping brown people out, just admit it for once. No one is stupid enough to believe that the shitshow on the border right now has anything at all to do with child trafficking.

    Seriously, no one is that stupid.

    Just admit it. Clearly, it is perfectly ok to be a racist in 2018.

  64. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    You are stupid, Iron Lung. Worse you are actually promoting evil.

  65. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    “HW how can we close loopholes when Trump just killed immigration reform… again.”

    Obviously it’s the Democrats who will vote no out of spite who are killing it. You think ten Democrats will sign a Republican bill?

  66. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    “Worse you are actually promoting evil.”

    lol

  67. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    Depends on the bill.

    It’s the GOP congress members who weren’t going to sign without a parental guarantee of support. One of the bills was bi-partisan.

    The timing of this was essential. And so they may have signed. On the other hand, if any proposed bill didn’t properly address DACA or the current crisis, why wouldn’t they want to wait until after November for the blue wave, as the president suggests.

  68. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:31 pm | Permalink

    There are plenty of historical examples of Democrats voting on Republican bills.

    Only the truly stoned would claim that there are not.

  69. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    The Democrats wouldn’t even take the DACA deal. They don’t want Trump and the Republicans to win so they are holding kids hostage. Momentum is picking up on Trump’s anti-corruption effort. [Latest: Strzok loses security clearance.] If they have been reduced to sabotaging immigration reform as a strategy I don’t think that bodes well for their prospects. Trump is getting shit done. Child trafficking is now a significant part of the national dialogue. That attention alone is tremendous progress.

  70. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    Learn logic, dumbass. No one said that.

  71. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    ” Child trafficking is now a significant part of the national dialogue.”

    lol

  72. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    The more you type lol about things like that the worse you look. Why is the truth about child trafficking funny to you? You put yourself on blast so tell the world what you think.

  73. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    “The more you type lol about things like that the worse you look. Why is the truth about child trafficking funny to you? You put yourself on blast so tell the world what you think.”

    lol

  74. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    The president, homeland security, interviewed border agents and two articles I pointed you toward in this mm.com conversation have referenced the rise of child abduction and the rise of actually catching adults posing as parents of small children. I know many here don’t want to talk about child trafficking, because those same people, presumably believe sticking to the simplist message that “Trump is unnecessarily ripping families apart because he is racist” is to their advantage politically; but kids are being trafficked.

    You say emphatically that you have proven there is no connection between separating adults and children at the border and the actual catching of adults posing as the parents of children at the border…. That is an interesting claim. Do you have any evidence that there has been no cases where it was discovered a child was actually not related to an adult after separation? Do you have any evidence that separation has not aided officials in determining whether or not a familial relationshup exists between a child and an adult? Until I hear concrete facts I think child trafficking should be part of the conversation.

    Saying there is no connection between separation and discovering child-trafficking seems unreasonable unless you give evidence. Do you have evidence or are you going on opinion aided by a failure to think through the different factors at play here?

    I am still shocked how dead set people are on dismissing child-trafficking as a factor at play….

  75. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    “Trump is unnecessarily ripping families apart because he wants to appeal to his racist base”

    is likely more accurate.

    While I do not discount that it happens, I do not at all believe that this administration takes child trafficking seriously.

  76. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    You don’t know what is going on. It’s in the news that hundreds of children have been rescued in recent weeks along with hundreds of pedos plus all the ones before that.

  77. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    If you don’t think Jeff Sessions is serious about it and that that is the primary reason he is in there you are out of your mind.

  78. Iron Lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    I think that Jeff Sessions is an old school Southern racist well seasoned in using dog whistles to appeal to racist voters.

  79. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    https://nypost.com/2018/06/13/over-2300-suspected-child-sex-offenders-arrested-in-nationwide-bust/

  80. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    Truth destroy what you think.

  81. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    *destroys* what you think

  82. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    FF– I have been following the issue closely. I follow subject area experts, not propaganda. Of the 2400+ kids separated from their adult caregiver after crossing the border, 124 of them have been shown to be crossing with someone unrelated. Not all of those were traffickers. There are lost of reasons why a child would cross with someone unrelated, given the system we have. A tiny minority of those would have been likely to involve child trafficking.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/experts-cast-doubt-dhs-claim-traffickers-are-posing-families-border-n885241

    No the international adoption system that legally traffics in stolen children, children the govt is now stealing, is another natter.

  83. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    “We are living, still, he suggests, within the sparkle and the spectacle and the fog of P.T. Barnum—whose core insight, after all, was not just that people could be fooled, but that, in fact, they wanted to be fooled. Barnum set about to make people question not just his exhibits, but also him, as their creator. He paid rivals to publicly declare his antics to be false. He bragged that “the titles of ‘humbug,’ and ‘prince of humbugs,’ were first applied to me by myself.” He knew, long before many others would learn from his tricks, the profound power of epistemic destabilization. He understood, intuitively, how many things Americans find to be more enjoyable than reality.”

    http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/12/the-image-in-the-age-of-pseudo-reality/509135/?utm_source=fbb

    that article and the idea of ‘pseudo-relaity’ relates to the coat, sure, but also to all of our Trump loving posters here.

  84. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    “propaganda oversimplifies experience, pseudo-events overcomplicate it.”

    “long before Hitler or Stalin, the cult of the individual hero carried with it contempt for democracy.”

  85. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    You are the ones trying to destroy the Republic with corrupt weaponized intelligence agencies/DOJ. Trying to flout congressional oversight now. Trouble.

  86. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    At some point some publication will have to do a very long piece on all the facets of the immigration crack down as well as all the fake justifications for it.

    I am hearing more and more about people who have been naturalized, who are being targeted and removed for minor crimes from decades ago. I heard about it first from South East Asian refugee friends, and then locally within the Middle Eastern population. This article confirms it. Some of these people have been here for 40 years and more.

    When do we start calling this what it is–a white nationalist purge of non-white people from the US?

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/in-america-naturalized-citizens-no-longer-have-an-assumption-of-permanence

  87. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    “formed a task force in order to identify people who lied on their citizenship applications and to denaturalize them.”

    What is wrong with that? Why did they lie? Funny how you use racism as a weapon.

  88. anonymous
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Trump is holding a press conference surrounded by people who had loved ones killed by immigrants.

    https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/1010233456293531648

  89. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    HW– Read the article.

  90. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    I read enough to see it is garbage:

    “Indeed, the creation of the task force itself is undoing the naturalization of the more than twenty million naturalized citizens in the American population by taking away their assumption of permanence. ”

    I’m pretty sure this doesn’t undo 20 million people’s naturalization.

  91. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-trumps-washington/trumps-cynical-immigration-strategy-might-work-for-himagain

    “Trump’s ability to gin up fears about illegal immigration, more than perhaps any other issue, won him the White House. Headed in to a midterm election that will be won by the political party that can better rally its base, Trump has remained determined to talk about immigration, even when others in his party have resisted. ”

    “unlike in previous midterm elections where the incumbent President’s party has done poorly, voter enthusiasm for Trump has remained strong among Republican voters, even as a blue wave of Trump-hating Democrats has been building. “The question is,” Anderson told me, “if the blue wave is coming, have Republicans built a large enough wall to stop it?” New Pew Research Center data this week underscored her point, finding that voters in both parties are more motivated to vote than they were at any time in the previous twenty years. The Democratic advantage on enthusiasm, Pew found, is significantly weaker than it was in the previous election cycles when their party scored big.”

  92. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Hyperbole Bonglord calling Masha Gessen garbage is rich.

  93. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:00 pm | Permalink

    Trump has calculated is doing well enough to absorb the heat from dishonest Democrats on this important issue. It shows he is confident in his position. You still don’t think he has something up his sleeve? How come none of your side’s efforts to attack him have borne fruit?

  94. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:01 pm | Permalink

    I don’t give a shit who it is. The article is garbage. 20 million Americans! It’s extreme hyperbole.

  95. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    calculated *he* is doing well enough

  96. Iron Lung 2
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    “Funny how you use racism as a weapon.”

    lol

  97. Iron Lung 2
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    The arrest of child traffickers does not in any way discredit the idea that the Trump administrations ramp up of family separations is not intended to appeal to his racist base or that Jeff Sessions is an old school racist well seasoned in using policy and dog whistles to appeal to a racist electorate.

    It is my opinion that this administration does not at all care about trafficked brown children.

  98. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    https://www.npr.org/2017/11/20/565569368/u-s-cancels-program-for-recent-haitian-immigrants-they-must-leave-by-2019

  99. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    So it seems that the Trump self-declared number for human trafficking arrests is just as inflated as all his numbers. Many right wing memes negatively compared the Obama DHS prosecution numbers (accurate) to the Trump number which was inflated by several methods apparently: 1) using worldwide sex trafficking arrest numbers 2) folding in ICE arrests of minors accompanied by a non-guardian unrelated to child trafficking (I mentioned this tendency above) 3) folding in arrests for sexual solicitation.

    https://twitter.com/diannaeanderson/status/979896768971223040

  100. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    A friend scrawled “Im better than that. I care.” on the back of her rain coat and was mostly high fives except for one grumpy old man at Kroger who called her a cunt. In front of children.

    Because Trump Supporters care SO SO very much about children.

  101. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155851295519401&set=a.76049474400.70179.662529400&type=3&theater

  102. wobblie
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    This is what a police state looks like

    https://bangordailynews.com/2018/06/21/news/penobscot/border-patrol-agents-question-drivers-at-i-95-checkpoint-about-citizenship/

    11 hours of stopping folks results in one illegal immigrant, and 10 folks having their drugs seized. We live close enough to the border that they could set up these checkpoints anywhere at anytime.

  103. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    “The arrest of child traffickers does not in any way discredit the idea that the Trump administrations ramp up of family separations is not intended to appeal to his racist base or that Jeff Sessions is an old school racist well seasoned in using policy and dog whistles to appeal to a racist electorate.
    It is my opinion that this administration does not at all care about trafficked brown children.”

    So you have modified your opinion. You just said “I do not at all believe that this administration takes child trafficking seriously.” Now you have qualified it to say brown children. That can’t be right either since he is exposing the loophole that promotes brown child trafficking.

  104. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Since Trump and Sessions are in fact exposing the loophole, highlighting the problem of trafficking of brown children as you call them then how can you say they don’t care? Your opinion is not well thought out.

  105. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    ““Funny how you use racism as a weapon.”

    “lol”

    Yeah, you do it too probably even worse than Jean. You call people racist because you hate them instead of hating people who are actually racist. You would have to hate yourself because you are racist as shit. You have a definition of racism that says it is impossible to be racist towards white people but that idea is itself racist on the face of it.

  106. Iron lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    Lol

    x 2

  107. Iron lung
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    I do not believe that this administration takes any aspect of human rights seriously, brown or not.

  108. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

    It doesn’t matter what you believe.

  109. wendyo
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Maybe she will don a Sex Pistols t-shirt when she meets the Queen.

  110. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    see article ll part e
    “forcibly removing children from one group and placing them with another group”
    constitutes genocide per the treaty signed at the United Nations Convention on the prevention and punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

    https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/unts/volume%2078/volume-78-i-1021-english.pdf

  111. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, it’s genocide. GENOCIDE I TELL YOU!!! Even though the children are in temporary care.

  112. Rat
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    Where does Hyborian Warlord go when he disappears from this site for extended periods of time?

  113. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Many are being fostered out and the govt doesn’t have a lot of the parental information and ICE may have it but is not sharing that information with social service agencies. They are making it as hard as possible to reunite the families. And Trump’s EO doesn’t mandate that. These kids are going to get adopted out. Through Christian international adoption agencies like Bethany in Grand Rapids. Its a travesty

    No wonder we left the Un human rights council.

  114. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    HW– if you could manage to actually listen to the on the ground reporting of those serving these kids, including Bethany itself, you would find that a lot of what you assert is untrue.

    But you have made abundantly clear here that you won’t read seriously anything that disrupts your world view except to try to tear it apart by any means necessary.

  115. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Please also note that the UN definition of genocide does not stipulate whether the separations are permanent or not.

  116. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– Border patrol have also taken to boarding public busses to ID people, which is not legal without a warrant.

    Since most of us live within 100 miles of the border (in fact the vast majority of Americans live within 100 miles of an international border), we need to familiarize ourselves with what they can and can not do at border crossings and speak up if we see those rules being violated.

    https://www.acluaz.org/sites/default/files/field_documents/aclu_border_rights.pdf

  117. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    For gods sake Jean. You left out the little bit in 2E about intent.

    I once forcibly separated a child from a group of bullies. I guess I committed the crime of genocide, huh?

  118. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    I think racist intent has been well established by Trump and co’s own language as well as policy.

    Madeleine Albright wrote a book about how we are dangerously close to sliding into totalitarianism. Does she strike you as someone who just throws that stuff out there for kicks? Or political advantage. (PS there is no political advantage in that narrative)

    Here HW. A little reading material for you: https://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/06/state_claims_it_cant_track_54.html

  119. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    FF– Are you a nation and did you systematically arrange the removal of one class and race of people from their families and place them into the homes of people of a different ethnicity?

    You really are corrupt without being charming.

  120. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    No Jean I am not a nation….and my act was not executed with the intent to destroy an ethnicty, so there is that too…

  121. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Genocide is not an attempt to destroy an ethnicity entirely just to destroy an ethnicities ability to survive one ones own soil in an attempt to create an ethnostate.

  122. Jean Henry
    Posted June 22, 2018 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/opinion/blood-libel-trump-immigrants.html

  123. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 6:02 am | Permalink

    https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/immigrant-mom-loses-effort-regain-son-us-parents/story?id=16803067

  124. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    So to answer my original question, the opposite of a border is a sort of graph-destroying, alienating, identity-erasing interstitial place. Social graph terra terra nullius. People abandoned by all social graphs. People fallen through cracks.
    You know the best place to find an unborder? It’s not at national borders but in the hearts of cities, which are full of what I call human graph garbage, in both computer science and social senses. People cut off from all social graphs.
    Around the world, refugee communities are known for stronger than normal graph integrity, not weaker. They may be geographically homeless but they are socially the opposite of homeless. They are like arks.
    That’s why they form ethnic enclaves with weirdly narrow versions of their origin cultures. There is a reason “Indian” food in the US is mostly Punjabi food. Or why half the Uber drivers in Seattle are Ethiopian or Somalian.
    My point with this thread is not to provide any specific commentary on the border crap going on now but to point out that the “order keeping out chaos” mental model of ethnonationalism is really really toxic and sociological nonsense.”

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1010379160810708992.html

  125. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    JH,

    I do appreciate the fact that you have opened my eyes to the problems of foster families and adoption of these kids. What a mess this whole thing is….

  126. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    As much as I would love to just hammer away at ethnonationalism, I keep coming back the the coat in my mind. I have had empathy for Melania. She seemed an easy target and not the right one. I truly hoped that she was secretly brilliant and gutsy in some way we would later discover. I doubt she came up with the coat. Someone asked her to wear it nd made her think it was funny and they pushed her outing the public eye.

    And still, it was her Marie Antoinette moment. And its hard to maintain any empathy. I’m sure Marie Antoinette had no idea that ‘Let them eat cake’ wasn’t just hysterical at the time.

  127. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Ok she’s probably not stupid. “I don’t really care” was a slogan of Italian Fascists about the time they invaded Slovenia pre WW2. Melania would likely be aware, as she was born in Slovenia and began her career in Milan.
    https://overland.org.au/2018/06/a-brief-fascist-history-of-i-dont-care/

  128. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    I think Melania is just counting the minutes until that freaky geezer kicks it. Aren’t we all?

  129. Sad
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    Yes people are always looking forward to the death of their child’s other parent.

    What does your jacket say on the back?

  130. Taco Farts
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    Mark, have you ever looked through the IP addresses of the racist bigots who post here? Depending on how sloppy they are, you might get a general sense of location they’re posting from (or sometimes if it’s a large organization, the business that they’re posting from).

    I once again lodge my general objection to your continued allowance of obvious trolls and/or Russian trolls and/or useful idiots. But if you’re going to do so, might as well know what you can about them.

  131. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    Oh, yes, Sad, I’m sure this mail-order bride is deeply in love with this mentally ill freak. That’s what every woman is looking for in a father for their child. It’s obvious she’s just playing her cards as best she can while waiting for her situation to improve.

    Are you also some grotesque monster, married to a mail-order slave?

  132. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    It’s very clear Melania was placing her bets that this weird geezer would kick before long and she could then live happily ever after.

    Now we’re all in that boat with her. Come on natural causes! Do your magic, natural causes!

  133. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/whos-really-crossing-us-border-and-why-theyre-coming

  134. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Had Melania could have foreseen that this particular monster was going to be recruited to become the circus-in-chief, I’m sure she would have opted for some other repulsive American millionaire. Anyone would. That’s why the entire nation should be praying for her, and for ourselves, to get relief soon, brought by the almighty and natural causes.

  135. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:03 pm | Permalink

    I don’t have any big dopey messages on the back of my jackets. I’m not a 15 year-old delinquent.

    However, if I did have a message on the back on my jacket it would be “Pray Melania gets relief! Pray we all do!”

  136. Sad
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Lighten up iRobert.

    Why do people not realize that even some monsters are loved? Didn’t some one here say they spend time with a lot of Trump supporters and they are fine decent people?

    I’m always asking who is this man who is able to come from nowhere and dislodge the historical currents of the past century? I mean look what he has done, WTF?

  137. Sad
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    And yes I am a grotesque monster. No slave.

  138. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Wise up, Sad.

    “No slave” because you don’t believe they are a slave? Or “No slave” because you haven’t received your mail-order spice yet?

  139. Sad
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    I can’t afford the postage.

  140. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Many of my friends are Trunp supporters and I like them very much.

    I can see why you’d be wondering how Trunp got to where he is. That, however, is not such a mystery to non-shut-ins.

    Many monsters are loved, usually by low self-esteem masochists. However, it’s always very obvious when someone is just marrying for financial security.

  141. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    “Didn’t some one here say they spend time with a lot of Trump supporters and they are fine decent people?” I did. Not a lot of time, but I talk to them a lot.

    Let’s be clear here that the history of human evil-doing casts very few truly evil characters.
    You don’t have to be evil to participate in evil.
    A survey of local A2 politics will tell you as much.

    I dont have any problem both identifying truly horrible and even inhumane practices and dealing with people who dont see them that way. If, however, we get into a political conversation, I’m honest as are they with me.

    So far none are nearly as awful or idiotic as HW or EOS. FF is a pretty close comparison. As annoyed as I get with FF and he gets with me, his thinking is not foreign to me and at least, sometimes, he concedes a damn point. My favorite characteristics of more conservatives I know if that they are honest about politics and they can appreciate a well argued counter point. They may shake their heads at my supposed naivete but they aren’t belligerent. And neither am I with them.

    I’m not sure where Melania lies on the spectrum. I dont think I’d be interested in debating politics with her or spending tie with her. I dont think I would like being around her. After that coat, my only hope for liking her at all is that she’s dumb as a stump, and I dont think that’s true. To be clear, I have no problem with her past, her ambition or how she dresses normally. And I feel sorry for anyone married to that guy. (yuck) And I don’t think Barron is especially attached to his dad, nor do I think Melania is.

    But that coat showed a crippling degree of lack of empathy for others at a moment of terrible trauma and distress.

  142. Sad
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    I can’t even keep a fish alive.

  143. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    “I’m always asking who is this man who is able to come from nowhere and dislodge the historical currents of the past century? I mean look what he has done, WTF?”

    SAD– He’s a text book autocrat. These are not unusual types of leaders. They have a well established pattern. There is nothing especially unique about Trump. However, men like him are dangerous. Not admirable because they are good at conning people and rising to great power. He’s dismantling our democracy.

    Please check out the new White House plan for federal government restructuring out yesterday. Fun stuff.

  144. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:37 pm | Permalink

    I like EOS, HW and FF. I also like JH and IL. I really do like them all. I don’t have a big problem with people having varying opinions and political positions.

    I even like Trump and George Bush. What I don’t like is having such a ridiculous clown as President. It’s extremely dangerous. I know many people who would not be good presidents. That doesn’t mean I don’t like their personalities.

  145. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Jean and I differ on some things. For example, I don’t attribute any of what Trump is doing, to him. He is nothing but a mindless stooge being used to cause chaos and to dismantle standards and institutions. He was duped into running and being installed. Now that he’s in, he’s doing what he’s told. He doesn’t have the wherewithal for anything else.

  146. Sad
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    Who’s pulling his strings?

  147. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    DJT is the opposite of Clowns In America presidents like the Bush’s and Clinton’s and Obama. Those are the real clowns; the scary kind that does bad things in secret. Trump is taking it all down. You guys fall for every distraction (that never amounts much; literally you fall for every thing) while a masterful plan is unfolding right under your nose. FBI all shook up. DOJ next or CIA? I vote for DOJ, then CIA. Watch what happens when the stage is finally set. No event so far has disproven The Storm. I’m putting my money on it is coming. We will see the most damning, undeniable evidence of criminal behavior by past and present government officials ever. Trump has it all.

  148. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    The answer is always, those interests which are benefiting to the tune of billions.

  149. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    What’s going on with Stormy by the way? Anything happening on that front?

  150. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    HW, I do agree with you in wanting to see much shaken up. I also would very much like to see a lot of the stuff you are expecting to be exposed. However, I don’t have the optimism you do about any of it. I can appreciate your extraordinary optimism.

  151. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t seen anything lately on Stormy. I’ll see if I can find any updates.

  152. Posted June 23, 2018 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    “Judge denies Stormy Daniels request to restart case against Trump, Cohen”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1JG1SV

  153. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Damn it feels good to be a gangsta.

  154. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    We’re commentors here predicting the Stormy Daniels story would bring down Trump’s presidency?

    I wouldn’t have thought so. Though I do believe it and other similar issues, if used carefully by the Democratic Congressional Campaign could help them win some somewhat conservative districts. I don’t expect the Dems to do anything carefully or wisely, however.

  155. Iron lung
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    I, for one, never made any predictions about Ms. Daniels.

    In fact, I find making grand predictions a rather pointless affair.

    If anything, though, Ms. Daniels helped expose exactly how empty right wing morality has always been.

  156. Iron lung
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

    Conservatives do not care what their own do. Democrats are far more unforgiving of their own.

  157. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    It’s only pointless to make WRONG predictions.

  158. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    “Iron Lung 2
    Posted May 7, 2018 at 9:28 pm | Permalink
    Does the irony of bring up people who have been brought down because of sex scandals even occur to him?”

    Aha, you fuckin’ LIAR! There you are talking like Trump is about to go down for a sex scandal. Fuuuck you!

  159. Iron lung
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

    There is nothing in this statement that makes a prediction.

  160. Iron lung
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    It very clearly refers to the irony of public statements by Trump referring to people who have been brought down by sex scandals despite facing his own set of scandals that had the potential to threaten his Presidency.

    It does not make a prediction.

  161. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    The only way it would be ironic is if he did in fact go down from Stormy therefore you must have been looking forward to that happening,

  162. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    Schneiderman went down for violence to women so it is a stupid thing to say no matter what.

  163. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Shocking example of the kind of thing you are going to see a lot more of. The complete inversion of reality by this guy is exactly what I have been talking about. Acts good but lives bad.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/eric-schneiderman-me-too-interview_us_5af30fa8e4b0aab8a78b9700

    “I think it’s changing the conversation,” Schneiderman told the host, actor Alec Baldwin, last Thursday. “It is part of what I see as this moment of social transformation and of the emergence of a new political movement.”

    On Tuesday, WNYC released the now-uncomfortable interview on Baldwin’s show “Here’s The Thing.” Schneiderman resigned on May 7 after The New Yorker published a report in which four women claim he subjected them to violent abuse while in relationships with them, including hitting, choking and/or threatening to kill them.”

  164. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

    “I think [#MeToo is] changing the conversation.”

  165. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    Trump hired undocumented immigrants to demolish a building in the 80’s. They successfully sued him for a million dollars for unsafe work conditions and unfair pay… as undocumented laborers.

    GOP morality has always been all talk and no walk. Trump just takes it to a whole new level.

    http://www.newsweek.com/trump-undocumented-immigrants-tower-demolish-724845

    As for the whole me too thing, sexism and sexual abuse, like racism, is a cultural problem and so arises from all quarters. The left is not immune to using moralizing as a shield.

    The difference is in accountability. The Dems are for sure is more willing to criticize their leaders, especially once in office. The rights failure to do so may win them elections but it’s super shitty for effective governance.

  166. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    You let them get away with murder so that’s insane.

  167. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    them = Dems

  168. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    I do think a lot of Democrats/liberals assumed Republicans would never support a character like Trump. It was naive on their part. It is a very rare person who genuinely commits to any set of moral standards, though just about everyone makes the claim that they have, and has likely convinced themselves of that as well.

    That naivete and misconception would also explain why so many Dems/libs also assume the situation will sort of naturally ‘correct’ itself. So in that sense, I see to what HW is referring, regardless of whether or not IL said anything like that explicitly. It’s clear many Dems/libs feel Trump will be ‘exposed’ and reason will prevail. That’s just not consistent with anything we’ve been seeing. I guess that contradiction is sort of what has been driving so many people crazy. Or at least it is one of the reasons.

  169. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    There’s endless hypocrisy in the cries of victimization by Trumpers. They are able to eat or sleep in peace. I hear they can’t get dates in dc either. Finally the left is angry enough to object to Trump on moral grounds. Turn around is fair play.

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/sarah-sanders-was-asked-to-leave-restaurant-over-trump-work.html

  170. Wobblie
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/where-are-the-girls-child-trafficking-feared-as-dhs-cant-say-where-immigrant-girls-are-being-held/5644869

    As HW says Trump is turning the world on its head9

  171. Jean Henry
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    Aren’t** (not are)

    Re Stormy Daniels no one here crowed about how she would take down Trump. But others did. We are not so easily fooled here. I think we’ve had reasonable expectations for the most part about the comet investigation etc. at least since he took office.

    Stormy was just one vulnerability among many. We have much more serious things to focus on right now. Thank god. Moralizing about sex gets annoying.
    (And no I don’t think the metoo movement qualifies as moralizing about sex. Sexual abuse is violence not sex.)

  172. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    I wish the comment section on this blog could be sort of like the question period in British parliament. I like that the members can make really snarky and insulting comments toward each other, and maintain a certain dignity about it. I think we’d all enjoy it much more than this gorilla-style gutter-talk. Americans are so uncouth.

    We could even refer to Mark as the Right Honorable Blogmaster, each time we rip him a new asshole.

  173. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Trumpeters have no right to complain they can’t get dates. If they weren’t such losers by Trunp standards, they’d be millionaires who could buy mail-order slave prostitutes, fuck porn stars on the side, pay Russian hookers to piss on each other, and grab random marri d women by the pussy. If your not in a position to do that, honestly, you’re just a loser. Face it.

  174. iRobert
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    Again, I know the difference between your and you’re, and I hate people who don’t. Apparently my autocorrect is based on what stupid people do, and not on proper grammar. I also don’t get why it doesn’t recognize the word “married.” How does it conclude that anybody would want to type “marri d?” That “e” isn’t just silent apparently, it’s invisible”

  175. Sad
    Posted June 23, 2018 at 10:22 pm | Permalink

    Stephen Miller Is running the country , do you think he has time to date?

    Or cares?

  176. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    Sad, are you smitten with Miller? Are you considering offering yourself to him? I do think you should. This lame blog could use a commenter on the inside.

  177. wobblie
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    https://www.juancole.com/2018/06/american-inequality-plutocrats.html

    It is all for show, the looting just continues

  178. Sad
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    I’m fascinated by the whole lot of them. It’s like central casting cooked them all up. Each character is so perfectly evil.

    And at the same time the Democrats are so ineffectual.

    Their big victory is not letting Sanders eat at a Red Hen . And they continue to sop up the fininacial spoils of the Trump administrations policies while bemoaning his tyranny.

    Good grief!

  179. Jean Henry
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 7:13 am | Permalink

    How would you propose, Sad, that the Dems could be more effectual, given the current GOP majorities in both houses, SCOTUS and the executive branch?

    What would effective resistance or law=making look like under such conditions?

    Truly curious about what you would like to see. A statement so condescending and constricted about resistance efforts must mean you have some grand and effective alternative in mind, right?

  180. Sad
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    Hardly.

    I’m just looking for leadership. One would hope there was some bright people out there. Certainly brighter than I.

    Isn’t there a Democratic version of Stephen Miller?

  181. Jean Henry
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Hmmm. Your condemnation of the Dems with no alternative strategy other than a need for ‘leadership,’ falls a little flat.

    It doesn’t seem that you’ve considered the predicament they are in strategically. Or anything at all other than that they aren’t winning right now.

    I don’t think we need or want leaders like Trump or Miller on the left. Racism will winnyiu elections on the GOP side. Not so much on the Dem side. Black votes matter. A lot.

  182. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Black voters are waking up. Even more will vote for Trump next time. Dems bring welfare. Trump brings jobs.

  183. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    I hate to say it, but I can definitely relate to what Sad is saying. Though the grammar is atrocious.

    Sad, Jean essentially answered your question, though she doesn’t realize she did. You see, I know what you mean about the Democrats needing their version of Miller. I’m sure you simply meant to suggest the Dems would benefit from having focused players of hardball, rather than the wishy-washy flakes who have taken over the party. Tell me if I’m wrong, but that’s the way I read your comment.

  184. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    As much as I think Jean adds the most comprehensive analysis of any commenters to this page, she also represents a confused mentality which has flooded the Democratic Party ranks.

    Organizing in the Democratic Party has long been described as something akin to herding cats. These days it’s like attempting to herd feral cats with rabies.

  185. Jean Henry
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Democracy unites people of disparate beliefs in moving the country forward. Any party is a coalition of different and often competing interests as well. While I would like Dems to show up in larger numbers at the polls, I don’t think there’s any chance they’ll agree on everything, nor should they.
    The issue, as I see it, is that many people think their political party platform will conpletely align with their own. That’s not realistic or desirable.

  186. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    So, Jean, do you see that as generally a more recent development? Because It was only a few decades ago when Democrats were pretty dominant at every level but the federal executive.

    It seems to me that you essentially agree that there is currently a ineffectual Democratic Party. What do you suggest as a solution or strategy to improve the Dems position?

  187. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 11:00 am | Permalink

    Like Sad, I too condemn the Democratic Party for its ineffectual condition. However, I wouldn’t like to say much here about what I’d propose in an attempt to change that situation. I know it would only set off all kinds of bullshit responses, and I don’t care to read any more of that than I already do. Perhaps I may have more time and stomach for it sometime in the future.

    In the meantime, I don’t think any of us would mind hearing about strategies you may recommend.

  188. iRoberr
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Not too long ago I met an state-level union official, and we talked a bit about this topic we’re discussing here. I suggested the Dems needed “tough” people like congressman Bill Ford, whom I worked for in the early 90’s. This union official reacted by asking what I meant by “tough.” I knew immediately I was talking to a place-holder who has no business representing the interests of the union rank and file. This person was given this job simply to employ them, as they were the former love interest of a relatively useless state Democratic Party official. That speaks a little bit to what I’ve watched happen to the Democratic Party over recent decades, and what drove me away. 25 years ago, no official would ask what I meant by “tough.” It was more of less understood. But a flake who had no business in their position of representing the interests of many others, and didn’t work their way to that position, naturally has no concept of the toughness it takes. They only have useless, flaky, academic concepts of everything.

  189. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    My most recent comment must have had some errors in the authentication process, as it doesn’t appear to have posted. I would so much appreciate it if Mark, or his auto-moderator software, would be so kind as to make any necessary corrections.

  190. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Typing this shit on an iPhone 5 is absolute torture.

    Of course, feeling the need to comment on this blog at all is more of a obsessive compulsive and addiction based behavior than it is any logic-driven one. I clearly need help. Mark, what therapist have you been seeing about it. Will you give me a reference?

  191. Jean Henry
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    iRobert— your memory is short. We have since Clinton (earlier really) had a regular swing in which the party that wins the presidency wins one or both houses of the Congress for 2 years, then it swings violently back to a split government again for the est of that presidents term.
    None of this is new.

    What is more new is the gerrymandering that has pretty much ended competitive races in most districts. Most state and federal Winners are determined in the promary, and so we get more radical representatives of both parties in office who are beholden only to their base for re-election. This gives extremists on both sides the idea that they have more of a mandate than they would in competitive races. They don’t compromise and so we get shoddy results.

    I would like to Dems to present a clear positive vision for improving economic and social justice. There are plenty of progressive positions that have bi-partisan support from the public if not the politicians. Bernie demonstrated the broad appeal of these positions; he just had shitty policy and strategy for implementation. But demanding single payer now etc is not necessarily the way forward. I am an incrementalist, not because I’m patient, but because that’s how democracy works. In my ideal world, the left of the party would understand not just the necessity but the value of incremental change and the moderate Dems would have the guts to lead with a positive inspiring vision of change.

    But all of that is secondary to ending gerrymandering and more broadly improving the competitiveness and fairness of elections, including securing voting rights. And protecting the security of them.

    Ps this American Life is covering the circling firing squad of Dem politics in NY right now…

  192. Jean Henry
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 2:10 pm | Permalink

    Protecting the security of elections**

  193. wobblie
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    JH, this kind of fussy thinking that was being identified—” Most state and federal Winners are determined in the primary, and so we get more radical representatives of both parties in office who are beholden only to their base for re-election.” Debbie Dingel, in a clearly Democratic gerrymandered district is “radical”! The number of “radical” Democratic representatives in the House can be counted on two hands (at the most)–that is in a caucus with 200 members. This false equivalence is the hall mark of your liberalism. Out side of the Black Caucus it is hard to find any true radicals in the House. The Progressive Caucus has 75 members. The Freedom Caucus claims 39 members and the Tea Party Caucus (when it was active) claimed 48 members.
    The vast majority of House members from both parties are simply careerist who sell out to Corporate interest. Look at the huge bi-partisan votes to expand the military budget(351 voting in favor and 66 voting against. 131 Democrats sided with 220 Republicans in support of the bill). The bi-partisan majorities to expand the surveillance state(191 Republicans and 65 Democrats voted for Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA)which expands warrant less wiretapping ), the bi-partisan majorities to undo Dodd-Frank ( 258-159).
    The differences between most Republicans and Democrats are mainly cosmetic (though as my daddy always told me, appearances do matter).
    We must demand better of our politicians. The lesser evil gets us nothing but more evil. Here are some ideas that would disrupt the status quo and lead to positive change. Ban all donations that do not come from real human beings. Outlaw PAC’s and all the rest. Limit the size of donations to $500 bucks per real human. Defund the Corporate/Media election complex. If folks don’t like that–go to 100% public funded. Ban all private money from elections. Make it a 10 year felony to donate to a political candidate. Triple the size of the House of Representatives. Make Puerto Rico and DC states. Split California and Texas into 5 states. There are many creative ways to disrupt the status quo which would lead to progressive change. If the Democratic Party was anything but the agent of the status quo they would be backing ideas that would disrupt things to the good.
    If we get a Democratic House in 2019 and they act to make anything like these things happen, some good might result.

  194. wobblie
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Trump was elected by the status quo—electoral college speaking. If folks want some thing other than a right wing president, we need to change the status quo.

  195. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

    Jean, the fact that you think gerrymandering is a recent problem reveals what a newbie you are, and that you haven’t bothered to educate yourself on the history of the subject at all.

    If you did that tiny bit of history research on the subject of midterm swings, you would discover that the Democrats controlled congress for a couple decades straight.

    You’ve arrived very late to the party, and you haven’t bothered to do your due diligence on what has been happening prior to your arrival.

    You don’t strike me as a lazy reader or researcher, so it’s a bit bizarre that you’d have such glaring holes in your knowledge of these things. Just about anyone 45 years or older, who has throughout their adult life made a point of reading a newspaper occasionally, should be able to verify what I’ve said. Well. They should be able to as long as they haven’t already gone senile and aren’t strung out on prescription pharmaceuticals as so many of us are these days.

    Other than that, I tend to agree with much what you’ve said about the current situation.

  196. iRobert
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    In fact, ask Mark. He’s a geezer.

  197. Sad
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for pointing that out iRobert. You probably wouldn’t be impressed with my shoes either. Sometimes it just slips out. It’s a relief too, code switching is exhausting.

    Stephen Miller doesn’t give people anything, he elucidates what they want. Why don’t the Democrats have someone who can give us what we want? Although watching those Gary Peters clips was painful. His constituents were telling him what they want and he was basically telling them they don’t understand. Really?

    I’m surprised he didn’t correct their grammar

  198. Jean Henry
    Posted June 24, 2018 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– I wasn’t talking about the federal senate. You can’t gerrymander half the state as easily. Everything else you propose is fantasy, in total denial of the democratic process, or the will of most of the nation, much less states rights to self-determination. Indeed it’s just another form of autocratic fantasy. You made my point perfectly.

    iRobert: Did you forget the “Republican Revolution?” While we may not have lost control of the congress every time, the pattern of losing congressional seats after election is well established. I understand the history of gerrymandering goes very far back. But the strategic use if it by Newt and co to dominate elections despite the popular vote is relatively new. They just have gotten very good at it lately.And we, until Trump, had never summoned the will to do much about it in MI. The Brennan Center has a lot of great data/history on it. PS Everyone has holes in their information. I should read less about current affairs and politics than I do. There is no way to keep up with all of it. PS I’m quite a bit older than Mark.

    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/mid-term_elections.php

  199. iRobert
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    Well, I’m fully in favor of any efforts anybody makes toward addressing the corruption of our elections brought by gerrymandering. I’ll be surprised if significant progress can be made any time soon.

  200. iRobert
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    The case in Texas, challenging gerrymandering, has been dismissed.

    The high court in North Carolina has declined to hear the case challenging the gerrymandered districts there.

    So, the same old story continues on that front, as it has for generations. But, like you say, Jean, the GOP has taken the effectiveness of gerrymandering to never before imagines heights.

    The districts drawn now using software make it much more difficult to convince the average idiot that it is a serious problem. It helped to have those bizarre looking districts they used to draw back in the good ol’ days.

  201. Iron Lung
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 1:50 pm | Permalink

    It is possible to use mathematics to create districts so that the outcomes of elections are mostly guaranteed.

    I am not sure that this is what the creators of the system had in mind. While the American right wing screams of “tyranny” they create systems which are nothing but tyrranical.

  202. wobblie
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    JH, As I have said and your comments amply demonstrate, the Democratic Party is the Status Qua party. I threw out about a dozen suggestions that would disrupt the system and lead to a greater representation for the people. One could call that “progressive”. Your response is telling. It is liberals like you that gave us Bush II, and Trump. The system was totally disrupted by Citizens United. Liberals have no answer. Ergo, the people have choice of a Corporate Fascist or a Racist Fascist. Huge bipartisan majorities for endless war–what other out come can the Republic have? How about some proposals? Or are you as empty of proposals as the Democratic Party seems to be?

  203. Jean Henry
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    I Robert—there’s a ballot initiative this November in Mi to take redistricting out of the hands of the parties and into the hands of a citizen council. How did you not know that?

    Similar ballot initiatives are passing across the nation but most won’t take affect until after the 2020 census, so we aren’t seeing impact yet. Again check out the Brennan center for more info on this.

    As for the court cases, if you were in fact more engaged on this issue than I, you would know that SCOTUS didn’t outright dismiss claims of partisan bias but sent the decisions back to the states with explicit instructions on how to demonstrate partisan bias (with plaintiffs from each county). In the past they have been unwilling to hear gerrymandering cases claiming partisan bias (v racial bias, etc) so things are improving with the courts. In general, awareness is growing. Liberals of all kinds hate the idea that they likely have to wait until after 2020 to see the kind of change they want re re-districting. But that’s how it will work. It took the GOP 10 years to implement the kind of extreme partisan packing of districts thatcwe have now (many candidates win by over 75% in their districts in the general) then it took us another 15 years to get our heads out of our righteous asses to notice and do something about it.

  204. Lynne
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    wobblie, it was the Nader voters who brought us Bush II *and* Citizens United. And anyone who didn’t vote for Clinton is part of why Trump won.

    BTW, I dont have major issues with any of your campaign finance ideas. I just don’t think they are likely to get the support they need right now to even have a chance of being successfully implemented. I certainly wouldn’t mind hearing more politicians talk about such things but there is a danger when they do. For example, in 2016 a *lot* of people heard Bernie talking about single payer health care but seemed to miss his little asterisk about it. He was saying that we could have single payer health care *if* there was a political revolution (which I assume what he meant by that was that liberals would vote in the midterms). So many people actually thought that if he got the nomination, he would have won (doubtful) and once in office, we would all have single payer health care! The danger is that when people hear stuff like that and then don’t get it, they are likely to start spouting nonsense like “both parties are the same” and “it doesn’t matter if I vote, nothing changes anyways”

    I think the Dems need to take a LONG view and I also think they need to listen more to women. But that is just my view. The real question is how to make all these men understand that their calls for aggressive politics aren’t resonating with everyone but especially not with many women?

  205. wobblie
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Lynn, if we have a Blue Wave in November, what do you want them to do? Everyone of the ideas I put out can be implemented by Acts of Congress. Elections are supposed to have consequences. The Republicans play hardball. They stone wall judicial appointments so that they can stack the court such as now. The Democrats need to stand for some thing. How about more representation for the people. The solution to gerrymandering is to create so many districts that the Republicans are buried in the number of Districts. Add new states and the 50-50 split in the Senate is destroyed. Do you think the people of DC or Puerto Rico will elect Trumpits? Mandate public financing of elections and you disrupt (I think for the good) the whole media/lobbyist/entertainment complex that currently controls election Federal electioneering
    Let Trump veto the admission of new states. Let Trump veto the amendment to Pub.L. 62–5, 37 Stat. 13 (the apportionment act that establish the size of Congress). It would at least give the appearance that Democrats are in favor of Representation. Who knows with the Trump he might even sign some of these into law.
    If we had real representation, the wars would end, and that would be a game changer. We know what we get if we keep things the way they are.

  206. wobblie
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    saw this meme today,
    right: let’s do genocide
    left: let’s not do genocide
    center: you guys just need to compromise, let’s just do some genocide
    right: i guess i can live with that for now
    left: no
    center: see, this is why no one likes the left, you guys are the real extremist.

  207. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 8:13 pm | Permalink

    That’s a terrible meme. Yeah, let’s do some genocide!

  208. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    The left loves to actually commit genocide. 36% of aborted babies are black according to https://rtl.org/outreach/ close to three times the percent of black people.

  209. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    In Michigan it’s worse.

    While Black women make up only about 14% of Michigan’s female population, they had 50.6% of all abortions reported in the state in 2017.

  210. iRobert
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Jean, how do you know what I do and don’t know? Are you secretly bugging my house.

    Also, what is your eesponse to HW’s charge Regarding the abortion of fetuses of color?

  211. iRobert
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

    “I Robert—there’s a ballot initiative this November in Mi to take redistricting out of the hands of the parties and into the hands of a citizen council. How did you not know that?”

    What makes you think I didn’t know that?

  212. Jean Henry
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    ‘Jean, how do you know what I do and don’t know? Are you secretly bugging my house.‘

    I don’t know Robert. How do you know what I don’t know— the ‘holes’ in my information you were so eager to mansplain to me?

    Turn around is a bitch.

  213. Jean Henry
    Posted June 25, 2018 at 11:16 pm | Permalink

    IRobeet— In all seriousness, you spoke of court cases as though they were the only avenue. And as though they were a total dead end.
    ‘So, the same old story continues on that front, as it has for generations. ‘

    No mention of the ballot initiative here or elsewhere.
    We are making incremental progress. The story is changing.

    Nothing about your conclusion would lead me to believe you recognized that. Much less that you knew how important the ballot initiative is to the future of MI politics.

  214. iRobert
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    I realize you’ve taken a dislike to me since I won’t jump on your bandwagon attacking HW and friends. However, please don’t make any assumptions about what I believe or know. Just ask if you are interested. You’ve been wrong consistently, and that makes progress in our communicating difficult. I think it explains a lot of why there is so much contention here in the comments section. When people make assumptions without doing their due diligence, it inevitably leads to unnecessary conflict.

    I do enjoy reading your takes on many topics. You clearly read a lot. I’m wondering though if you’re going to ignore HW’s question about whether or not the majority of aborted fetuses in Michigan being black would be a very grevious expression o racism.

  215. iRobert
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Jean, to clarify my positions regarding the assumptions you made about them…

    I realize there are many avenues to change, not just formal political initiatives. I’d have to be a complete idiot not to understand that.

    I don’t believe the initiatives are dead ends, but I do believe they are up against a lot more than most people putting them forward realize.

    People have been fighting gerrymandering for generations. There has been a lot of great effort put into it, and it’s come up against incredible resistance. So it is fairly described as the same old story, until real progress is made.

    Im sorry I didn’t write a state-by-state complete analysis of every ballot initiative for you, but I don’t have a great deal of time for such things. I really would like to though, honestly. I like to be thorough, much like you.

    I’m all in favor of every bit of work that has gone into ridding our country of the corruption of gerrymandering.

  216. wobblie
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/12/ballot-measure-split-california-three-states/

  217. Iron Lung
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    “I’m wondering though if you’re going to ignore HW’s question about whether or not the majority of aborted fetuses in Michigan being black would be a very grevious expression o racism.”

    This has long been a generic trope of pro-Lifers. Old as the hills.

    I’m often surprised that these white wing tropes are so new to some people. It would seem that many simply don’t pay attention.

  218. Lynne
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Lynn, if we have a Blue Wave in November, what do you want them to do?

    I would want them to do whatever they can to reform our campaign finance. I would expect them to work towards a single payer health care system but that is such a big task that I wouldn’t expect success overnight. I want immigration reform that will make it easier for labor to move freely in free trade zones. I want to see a reform of social security so that we can lower the retirement age and still have it be fully funded. I want to see infrastructure spending. I want more wall street regulation. I want consumer protections. I want women’s rights to be protected. etc and so on.

    The thing is though, even with a blue congress, there would still be a Trump president and they are unlikely to have the power to override vetos so mostly they would block what the GOP wants. Then, hopefully, the executive branch can change in 2020.

  219. Jeffery St. Clair by proxi
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Lynn, I’m for everything you mentioned. Campaign finance reform is the first thing you mention. What kind? The Republican campaign finance reform was to let unlimited money into campaigns. It was to equate money with free speech and corporations with people.

    On another front

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/25/1775182/–Not-a-Single-ICE-Agent-Has-Made-It-Into-Work-Blockade-of-the-ICE-Office-in-Detroit-RIGHT-NOW

  220. Jean Henry
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    iRobert— you didn’t mention the ballot initiatives. I didn’t ask for a State by state summary or even careful analysis. You left out a critical piece of the story. That’s all.

    I write a lot here because writing is how I work out my thinking. I tend to confuse myself a lot with multiple perspectives and seek clarity via analysis.
    I have no expectation that people read what I write unless they counter my point.
    I don’t care if they read what I write.
    I don’t want people to be like me or agree with me. That would be boring. Also most days it’s not that easy being in my own head, and I like to believe others walk around content, full of love and gratitude with a sense of abundance, wholeness and interconnectedness. It’s my preferred delusion.

    Please do not take my posts as instruction of any kind about anything.

  221. Iron Lung
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    My posts are intended to dissuade people from using marijuana.

    If you use marijuana regularly consider getting help. If you or a loved one know someone with children or pets who uses marijuana, call the proper authorities immediately. It could be the difference between life or death for a child or pet.

  222. iRobert
    Posted June 26, 2018 at 6:29 pm | Permalink

    I haven’t checked the stats HW is asserting regarding abortion and race. Does anybody have any links to help verify what he’s saying?

  223. iRobert
    Posted June 27, 2018 at 1:27 am | Permalink

    Jean, I just mentioned the TX and NC decisions because they were developments which happened within the last week.

    Has any polling been done on where the Michigan measure stands with the voting public here? I haven’t seen or heard anything in our state media about that detail yet.

  224. iRobert
    Posted June 27, 2018 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    We live in a culture now where few people understand that caring is the most courageous actin which any person ever engages. People these days have come to equate indifference with strength, but the truth is quite the opposite. Saying “I don’t care” is a declaration of surrender. It’s a declaration of weakness.

    It used to be only a small subculture of fools who didn’t understand this. Now it’s the cultural norm.

  225. Bartelby
    Posted June 27, 2018 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Amen to that, iRobert.

  226. iRobert
    Posted June 28, 2018 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Is it “mansplaining” if I’m saying it to an obnoxious little French guy?

  227. iRobert
    Posted June 28, 2018 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    I’d think of that as “Yankeesplaining.”

  228. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 28, 2018 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    To call a true fact any kind of “trope” is so dumb. I already showed a long time ago how Margaret Sanger who started Planned Parenthood openly promoted eugenics against black people. Blacks are still aborted more often. Who is the real racist then?

    [SOURCE: Michigan Department of Health & Human Services, “Induced Abortions in Michigan: January 1 through December 31, 2017,” May 2018]

    Black women had 12,789 of the 25,757 abortions performed on Michigan residents in 2017. (Of the total 26,594 reported abortions in Michigan in 2017, 837 were performed on non-residents and 25,757 were performed on residents.)

  229. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 28, 2018 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    To call a true fact of any kind a trope…

  230. Iron Lung 2
    Posted June 28, 2018 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    So what? Just because black women have abortions more frequently than white women doesn’t imply some grand conspiracy by Democrats to kill black people.

    Get off the bong, dude.

    It is a fact that marijuana is associated with gang violence. The real killer is marijuana. The marijuana lobby is killing black people. The real racists are white marijuana smokers.

  231. Jean Henry
    Posted June 28, 2018 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    IRobert —“Has any polling been done on where the Michigan measure stands with the voting public here? I haven’t seen or heard anything in our state media about that detail yet.”

    The Redusting ballot initiative was approved for the ballot by the election board of commission a couple weeks ago. There are court challenges, but there are always court challenges to these things. It should be there in the fall as a lot of effort was made to make it bullet proof (non-partisan) legally.

    It’s complicated and very long but Mi Radio (Zoe Clark) has put up a good summary online.

    No public polling has been done to my knowledge but if the petition gathering drive is indicative this thing has legs. It was an all volunteer effort which is pretty much unheard of. So there’s an army of well educated volunteers who have been beating the weeds all over MI. Their basic pitch is that this proposal puts elections back into the hands of voters and out of the hands of career politicians. It’s a populist message with broad appeal and one I actually agree with (yay!) mostly because this particular populist effort would make all races more competitive and so make our reps more accountable to everyone in their district, not just their base. We’ll actually elect a few moderates again! Imagine a congress that is actually representative of the entire population.

    It’s hard to believe we travelled so far away from that Basic foundation.

    The only people opposed to this thing are establishment politicians on both sides. But the Dems are keeping quiet. Because they only stand to win in a state more gerrymandered to favor the GOO than almost any other in the nation.

    Get out the vote is everything this November, short term and long term.

  232. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 28, 2018 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Black women do get abortions more than white women. A lot more. At a place founded by a eugenicist. That you support.

  233. Jean Henry
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    So HW, what kind of support are you prepared to offer those black babies after they are born?

    Black women disproportionately experience poverty. (They also are obtaining more advanced degrees than any other demographic.) So it makes sense that they have more abortions for children they can not support and that they dont have the same access to contraception. I met with a friend tonight who is a public health nurse and she talked about how many of her clients (most of them) are making the choice monthly between food, bills and medicine because they don’t have enough money for all. How do you expect them to support more children? How are you planning to help?

    You are using human beings to make a ridiculous rhetorical point. It’s craven at best.

  234. Jean Henry
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Ps almost everyone was a eugenicist at the turn of the last century when Margaret Sanger was active in that movement.

    Darwinism lead to some unfortunate ‘logical’ conclusions about how to improve humankind…

  235. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    Oh my god. Haha – what are you saying? This is crazy. What support? How about economic policies that are bringing jobs to blacks and everyone.

    If you think it is a good idea to kill all peoples but especially kill black people before they even get a chance in the world then you would fit in with “almost everyone” in Sanger’s time. Incredible.

  236. wobblie
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    JH, I believe you mean “Social Darwinism” which is a perversion of Darwinism. Anyone who understand evolution knows that the word “fittest” is much broader in scope than any individual and references social behavior and mutual aid rather than the tooth and claw that the promoters of Capitalism focus on.

  237. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    It’s for their own good, huh Jean? Rip ’em out and crush ’em up ’cause they will only live a life of poverty. It’s the compassionate thing to do.

  238. Iron Lung
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    Marijuana is the true problem. Marijuana causes poverty, as evidenced by that fact that poor people smoke marijuana. People advocating for increased legal access to marijuana are in fact, advocating for a continuation of poverty.

  239. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    So true

  240. Al B. by Proxi
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Hey Friends – here are the updated plans for tomorrows rally. In light of the arrests of 600 women in DC, yesterday, it even more important to raise our voices!
    Action Plan
    1:00PM The action will start with a 45-minute speaker program at the Clark Park mosaic-stage (about half-way down Clark Ave, just North of Christiancy).

    ​1:45PM We will march to the intersection of W. Grand Blvd and the I-75 Service Drive that has the on-ramp to the Ambassador Bridge.

    We will take this intersection. The overpass sidewalk can be used for people who definitely cannot, cannot risk arrest whatsoever (people who are undocumented or have immigration cases). Once the first order to dismiss is given by police, anyone who doesn’t want to be arrested will move to sidewalks to stop blocking the road. People who want to risk arrest and continue the pressure/tension and make this action escalate the campaigns will continue to block the on-ramp.

    There may be food trucks present. Water will be provided, but bring your own. Sunblock and hats.

    PLEASE SHARE THE FACEBOOK PAGE:
    Families Belong Together March – Melt the ICE

    Sponsoring Groups
    ABISA – African Bureau of Immigration and Social Affairs
    Metro Detroit Educators for Immigration Justice
    Women’s March Michigan
    Michigan for Revolution
    Michigan United
    Women’s March Michigan
    MMCC – Michigan Muslim Community Council
    Detroit Hispanic Development Corporation
    Intercultural Communities Collaborative
    Central United Methodist Church – Detroit
    Detroit Friends Meeting
    Birmingham Temple

  241. Jean Henry
    Posted June 29, 2018 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie, you dolt. We are talking about the early 1900’s.

    I know what Social Darwinism is. The distinction was not so clear then. It was all very new and sometimes even very progressive people have really fucked up ideas. And the people who supported Social Darwinism were the people who cared about solving social problems.

    Thank you for the lecture though.

  242. Kyle Griffin by proxy
    Posted July 1, 2018 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    WaPo reports that when FLOTUS travels alone, her tarmac arrival is traditionally closed to the media.

    But when Melania wore her ‘I really don’t care, do u?’ jacket, the W.H. allowed her to be photographed, as if she wanted the media to see the jacket.

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