Yes, it looks as though the person responsible for the racist graffiti at EMU may have been black. And, no, that does not mean racism no longer exists.

Ypsilanti, in case you missed it, is back in the national news. According to Eastern Michigan University’s chief of police, Robert Heighes, they believe they now know the identity of the vandal who, on three occasions last fall, spray-painted vile, racist messages targeting black students on University buildings. Here’s how the story in the Washington Post begins.

Yes, you read that right. The suspect isn’t one of Richard Spencer’s local acolytes, as many of us suspected would likely be the case, but a young, black, former EMU student. And, as you might imagine, the conservative blogs are having a field day, holding the story up as evidence of the fact that anti-black racism no longer exists in America, the same way, every time we get a big snowfall, people on the anti-science right invariably emerge to pronounce that the existence of winter proves climate change is a hoax.

The truth, as most of us know, however, is that racism is alive and well in America, regardless of who might have been responsible for the graffiti spray painted at EMU. One doesn’t have to look too far for examples. Some, I’m sure, would even argue that the University’s response to the graffiti in question was racist, seeing as how members of the administration appeared, at least at first, to be more interested in punishing those black students who were protesting than addressing the existence of racism on campus.

But, yes, it sucks when things like this happen. It sucks when people lie about serious issues like this, and, in the process, make it more difficult for real victims of crimes like these to come forward and be taken seriously. In the past year alone, we’ve had both a young University of Michigan student claiming to have been attacked by a safety pin-wielding Trump supporter, and a young Muslim woman in Ann Arbor claiming to have been forced to remove her hijab by a white man, neither of which, it would seem, turned out to be true. And it’s not just a liberal phenomenon. As you might recall, there was also a College Republican in Ann Arbor not too long ago who claimed to have been attacked by liberal thugs. And who can forget the story of the young Republican who said that supporters of Barack Obama had carved the letter “B” on her face?

There are some 325 million people in this country, and, guess what? Some small percentage of them have serious issues… issues that compel them to insinuate themselves into current events, weave false narratives, seek out attention, etc. And, as I see it, it’s our job to guard against cynicism that comes along with knowing that.

So, I know it probably goes without saying for most of you, but just because the perpetrator in this case may have been a black man, does not mean that we should just assume, the next time something like this happens, it’s probably not real.

Some people have suggested that I should apologize for having covered the story in the first place. I guess they think I should have just looked the other way when I’d heard that someone had spray painted “KKK” and “Leave N…ers” on the side of a University administration building, or, at the very least, I should have added a sub-head alerting people to the possibility that the perpetrator may not be a white man, but someone aiming to make white men look worse than they already do. I just don’t see how that kind of cynicism really helps move us forward, though. Quite the contrary, I think it would likely give rise to an environment where women are more reluctant to come forward with stories of sexual harassment, people of color are more reluctant to share their experiences, and kids are more reluctant to tell us when they’re being bullied. And wants to go back to that? So, yes, I acknowledge that, every once in a while, we’re manipulated by people who, for whatever reason, attempt to insinuate themselves into the truly big, important narratives of our day. I refuse, however, to stop listening.

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142 Comments

  1. Anonymous
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    Somehow I doubt those now commenting about how this young man should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law would be saying the same thing if he’d turned out to have been white.

  2. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    That would be a given, wouldn’t it? That a white man would be prosecuted to the fullest extent for this crime? I don’t know about you but I would like him to get the same sentence as a white perpetrator.

  3. Anonymous
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    Apparently, because you reported on this original incident, thinking that it was truly the work of a white supremacist, everything else you’ve ever written about on this site is a lie.

    From Hyborian Warlord:

    “Look at maynard’s thoughts on at least four different phony incidents he thought were real. Look at the anti-Trump message neatly bundled up with a lie. It’s propaganda and maynard is one of the useful idiots putting it out and you agree with him.”

  4. M
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    HW, wasn’t it also you who suggested that the white supremacists marching in Charlottesville were really Jews in disguise?

  5. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    I don’t get what you are trying to say. He’s done it over and over and it is always paired with a message to stay strong against the racist Trump minions.

  6. Mike Dority
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    “So, I know it probably goes without saying for most of you, but just because the perpetrator in this case may have been a black man, does not mean that we should just assume, the next time something like this happens, it’s probably not real.”
    You’re missing the point. What we should NOT do is automatically assume that it’s real. Protesting and hand wringing over something that turns out to be false only makes it harder for thoughtful people to take the next incident seriously. In other words, don’t cry “wolf” until you’re sure there’s a wolf.

  7. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 8:53 am | Permalink

    “HW, wasn’t it also you who suggested that the white supremacists marching in Charlottesville were really Jews in disguise?”

    I already told you I didn’t say that. Are you nothing but a smear artist? Doesn’t it feel gross?

  8. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/10/24/black-children-study-michigan/106965990/

  9. M
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    Maybe it was EOS who talked about the white supremacists in Charlottesville being Jews. I get you confused. It was you, though, who accused George Soros of being a Nazi, though, right?

  10. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    I said vanguard america is someone in disguise, but not jews. You probably never watched their videos I posted for everyone’s edification. Frosted Flakes saw what I was talking about. They are different in certain ways. How do you get that I said they were jews out of it? Is it because I stated in another post that that weev guy is jewish? That is a fact. How are you going to conflate the two on me like that?

  11. Kim
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    HW about Charlottesville. “I did predict something was going to happen yesterday based on the phony looking torch scene. I thought it would be a false flag shooting. You guys are so dumb you don’t know such things exist.”

  12. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    “You’re missing the point. What we should NOT do is automatically assume that it’s real. Protesting and hand wringing over something that turns out to be false only makes it harder for thoughtful people to take the next incident seriously. In other words, don’t cry “wolf” until you’re sure there’s a wolf.”

    Mike Dority, big ups! Crying wolf is right and it is all the time around here. The safety pin girl, the burka girl, the jewish center bomb threats, the graffiti…I can smell this stuff from a mile away. Whenever there is a phony one it’s like “that is probably trumped up”. Now Clinton and pals are facing the repercussions of crying wolf about russian collusion when they themselves were colluding in the Uranium One deal.

  13. Kim
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    It’s never the fault of white supremacists in HW’s world. He said the following about Charlottesville as well.

    “It’s obvious that Spencer and his crew are almost too convenient to the left with demonstrations like this though.”

    “That second pic looks like a Hollywood movie still. This is a smear to give people like you talking points.”

    “It looks like Weev (Andrew Auernheimer, the Jewish ex-con who runs The Daily Stormer) in the second video. Huh! If that’s true then I think my last comment’s stock just went up.”

  14. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    “Some people have suggested that I should apologize for having covered the story in the first place.”

    In the other racist graffiti thread? Really? Where?

    “…its is our job to guard against cynicism…”

    Sorry, but sometimes you have to pull a gem out of context and let it shine. :)

  15. Meta
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    The conversation on the Daily Caller is interesting. Here are a few of the highlights.

    • If it wasn’t for blacks and jews LARPing as KKK and Nazis, we’d all forget about those organizations.

    • Anytime a noose, swastika or the KKK letters appear you know the story is a hoax.

    • Lets us all thank obama in taking race relations back 75 years.

    • The “deeper and systemic issues that are behind these incidents” are that universities have become nothing more than very expensive day care centers with little to no academic merit (or even less than none) where students are infantilized rather than edified and are taught that contrived grievance mongering is a better solution to life’s challenges than intellectual rigor and hard work.

    • Double standards for another distinguished member of Americas most highly prized and protected species.

    • Advice to Mr. Curlin: Please stop “acting Black.” It is not helping matters these days.

    • Black DNA is mutated.

    • Blacks manufacturing their own racism. Muslims do the same. Hispanics do the same. Asians to a lesser extent do the same. Nice to know that White people except for Liberals suffering from a paranoid schizophrenic guilt are above these shenanigans.

    • The race baiting industry is alive and well thanks to 8 years of Kenyan instigation!

    • Have they scheduled the rallies to protest the never-ending hoax culture that denigrates white people?

    • Well at least he gets to visit his dad and brothers for a reunion ….. ‘for 1-5 years!’

    • I think there is big money in being a victim of the white boys. I don’t know if it’s true, but I heard that Gold Star Widow who said she was abused by Trump raked in half a million dollars on Go Fund Me. If true, that’s example of the profits of being a victim.

    • The ‘holocaust’ storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

    • Translation: So even though this was some black guy creating racist graffiti for his own entertainment, white students will ultimately pay the price via mandatory indoctrination to a liberal, globalist philosophy that basically blames Europeans for everything.

    • “I am going to bring down the United States by funding black hate groups. We’ll put them in a mental trap and make them blame white people. The black community is the easiest to manipulate” -George Soros, Sept. 2014, Interview with Germany’s BILD

    • The hood rat was trying to start a race war, like BLM.

    Read more:
    http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/23/black-man-arrested-in-kkk-graffiti-case-at-eastern-michigan/

  16. Iron Lung
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    Didn’t Mr. Warlord claim that the Charlotteville racists were actually Jews in disguise?

    That was interesting.

  17. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    I stand by everything I said. Saying the organizers are phony is saying they are jewish how? Weev is a self-proclaimed jewish nazi and a professional hacker troll criminal extortionist. That is a fact. I don’t know if it was him or not but if it is that doesn’t look good, does it? Kessler is definitely a leftist or was until Trump became president. Don’t know what that with with being jewish.

  18. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:27 am | Permalink

    Where is your self respect, Iron Lung? You don’t mind going around trying to smear shit on someone? Gross.

  19. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Imagine anyone mixing up twining conspiracy theories? I mean, since they are so grounded in fact, and so OBVIOUS to anyone with eyes to see… And there are so few of them, just from HW alone, and so few convenient intersections/coincidences therein, and they have no related narrative tendencies, it should be super easy to keep them all straight.

    Basically if you do not let enter HW enter your brain and insert his entire world view like some horror show villain, if you resist any part of his bad think, you are forever doomed to suffer his wrath. He accepts no substitute but total compliance and loyalty. And if you question him at all, he takes it very personally, freaks the fuck out and goes on an impulsive vitriolic internet personal attack rampage.

    No wonder he loves Trump so… Hey wait, maybe HW is…

  20. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    I don’t care if you accept it or not. Just don’t smear me. Don’t lie. If you say something factually wrong own up to it. Forget about this narrative shit. Narratives suck. Be fluid and pay attention and you start to see how this kind of thing works in real time. A lot of things you say are conspiracy theories turn out to be true. You think oswald was a lone nut? Yes, there is conspiracy everywhere. Just look around. Look at Clinton and Obama and related people and the world of shit they are in about the Uranium One scandal. It’s blowing up right now but you probably have some dismissive but inane comment in mind if anything at all.

  21. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    M
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:06 am | Permalink
    Maybe it was EOS who talked about the white supremacists in Charlottesville being Jews. I get you confused. It was you, though, who accused George Soros of being a Nazi, though, right?

    Did I not post the interview where he talked about it? It’s not hard to find anyway. Here, I’ll do it for you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqw2-TlaWMk

  22. EOS
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    No, Not me.

  23. anonymous
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    More from Hyborian Warlord about how the Nazis are really Jews.

    “I pointed out that the daily stormer was created by a jewish nazi. That is a fact. I did not say that shit you just said, jean. Regarding Fields I responded to a comment that is has been suggested he is jewish. I have no idea if that is true but what if it is? Is it forbidden to notice that? I talked about the anti-semitic bomb threats last year being perpetrated by a jewish israeli kid but that got no traction around here so you are actually being dishonest by using sloppy generalizations.”

  24. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    “Imagine anyone mixing up twining conspiracy theories? I mean, since they are so grounded in fact, and so OBVIOUS to anyone with eyes to see… And there are so few of them, just from HW alone, and so few convenient intersections/coincidences therein, and they have no related narrative tendencies, it should be super easy to keep them all straight.
    Basically if you do not let enter HW enter your brain and insert his entire world view like some horror show villain, if you resist any part of his bad think, you are forever doomed to suffer his wrath. He accepts no substitute but total compliance and loyalty. And if you question him at all, he takes it very personally, freaks the fuck out and goes on an impulsive vitriolic internet personal attack rampage.
    No wonder he loves Trump so… Hey wait, maybe HW is…”

    You think habitually smearing someone is called questioning them at all. Sounds like you are mad your narrative is burnt to a crisp.

  25. M
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    The Hyborian Warlord narrative is consistent. White, Christian men are never the problem. Unless, that is, they’re liberal, in which case they’re suckers who are being taken advantage of by the Jewish media.

  26. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    One of you guys posted about people saying Fields is jewish. It’s a little trap, isn’t it? To you it doesn’t matter if it is true or not. If I respond at all without virtue signalling I am smeared again by this ‘anonymous’ jerk.

  27. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    If it wasn’t EOS then it must have been me.

    Let me check.

    Nope.

  28. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    “M
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:13 am | Permalink
    The Hyborian Warlord narrative is consistent. White, Christian men are never the problem. Unless, that is, they’re liberal, in which case they’re suckers who are being taken advantage of by the Jewish media.”

    That’s idiotic. You are literally projecting an inverted image of your own mind onto me. You do it to distract from my point: the rally was run by a fake and Field’s group is fake. You can watch their larping vids and see if you think they are legit or pretending. You might think they are legit no matter what and that is fine but don’t be ignorant and don’t try to smear me.

  29. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Frosted and EOS, I think one of them brought it up about how racists on the internet were saying it.

  30. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    I mean how do you figure, M? I do not have that attitude at all and never have but you DO constantly try to falsely pin crimes onto who?

  31. Scrutinizer
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    It’s probably not politically correct to have an “I told ya so” moment about EMU overreacting to the graffiti. But EMU overreacted to the graffiti.

  32. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    I think it be an interesting exercise for everyone to sit down and re-read MM.com’s post on the “safety-pin-slasher” and then to immediately watch the “vanguard-larping” video HW offered.

  33. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    How did a post that could spur such interesting conversation become so dull…
    Because it is simply being used as a means to scream hypocrisy at one another. Discourse in general would be som much better and more nuanced if people weren;t so ideological as to believe the other guy is a hypocrite but they are not.

    The accusation of hypocrisy is a discourse cock block. Better to be confusing and confused any day…

    “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.” — Emerson

    “Confusing yourself is a way to stay honest.” — Jenny Holzer

  34. Jcp2
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    At this point, it’s like reading the Daily Caller inside of Huffington Post. Also, I lost a bet as to the number of posts before “larp” would be used.

  35. qu
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    More quippy crap by jcp2. I have only ever used that term in regard to the “Vanguard America LARPING” videos on youtube.

  36. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

    More quippy crap by jcp2. I have only ever used that term in regard to the “Vanguard America LARPING” videos on youtube.

    Double post because my name got messed up.

  37. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    “How did a post that could spur such interesting conversation become so dull…
    Because it is simply being used as a means to scream hypocrisy at one another. Discourse in general would be som much better and more nuanced if people weren;t so ideological as to believe the other guy is a hypocrite but they are not.
    The accusation of hypocrisy is a discourse cock block. Better to be confusing and confused any day…
    “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.” — Emerson
    “Confusing yourself is a way to stay honest.” — Jenny Holzer”

    But you are the one who refuses to talk about the elephant in the room: phony racism and associated propaganda. That is the boring thing. It’s worse than boring. It’s stifling.

  38. Iron Lung
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    I was really into the time the Mr. Warlord claimed that Jews secretly infiltrated a white supremacy march in Charlottesville.

    That was cool.

  39. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Childish? Yes

    Annoying? Yes

    Effective toward achieving any worthwhile end? Not at all

  40. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    “the Mr. Warlord”

    Lol

    Seriously, what a little shit you are.

  41. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    HW mode of discourse #1 : the retort
    “I know you are, but what am I?”

    HW mode of discourse #2: the sollogism
    — Racist grafitti happens
    –People get upset about racist graffiti because they get upset about racism
    –Graffiti writer turns out to be Black
    –ergo Racism does not exist, All claims of racism have plausible deniability, or total deniability, because this guy who was black wrote racist graffiti.

    I’m anticipating the next logical step: Black people use racist words too. That makes them the racists

    Too busy right now for more modes of discourse, but I’m sure the opportunity will present itself.

    Hey, did you hear that one about HW about when she said that the Jews staged the white supremacy march in Charlottesville? She said that because racism does not exist (except against white people) and is NOT a problem.

    HW here’s a clue: stifling you is like my primary objective here. Waiting for the barbaric yawp in 1…2…3…

  42. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

    It is extremely common for people to project what they think onto others.

    How did I or anyone ever say racism no longer exists? That’s idiotic. How do you live with yourself putting out such a pile of crap on the internet every day? Why do you lie so much? Trying to attack me but it’s a bunch of bullshit. All it does is make you look like a POS.

  43. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    I’m totally ok with that, HW. I’m an old punk and never really cared what ppl thought of me. I don’t know if that’s a gift or madness or both.

    I’m so pleased that you finally acknowledged that racism exists. It took 4 tries. With direct asks.
    I had to ascribe that view to you for you to respond.

    That’s a dynamic you might want to consider when you do your considerable considering about how people engage with you here.

  44. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Also, I have a small biz background and whenever you write POS, I read ‘Point of Sale.’
    Ka-Ching!

  45. even sadder than sad
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    To be honest, the fact that this was not done by white man did not surprise me. I was ready for that eventuality given what we had seen before. And I knew, if that turned out to be the case, we would see exactly the kind of response we are seeing here now. It is depressing. One wonders if the people who do these things comprehend the negative repercussions their actions will bring about. The reality is that racism is more insidious than a spray painted “N” word. It’s a cancer with deep roots. It defunds inner city schools, cuts job training programs and disproportionately incarcerates people of color. It’s in the air that we breath. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that people attempt to demonstrate its existence in concrete terms by faking it, especially in these cray times, where everyone is on the edge of madness.

  46. Iron Lung
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    I think the Mr. Warlord is entertaining.

    A very creative chap.

  47. Iron Lung
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    I don’t remember the Mr. Warlord ever having worked in a Post Office.

  48. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Yes, even sadder. The way I see it an angry and frustrated person can think “look everyone acknowledges racism when it’s obvious, so let’s draw attention to it that way. Because otherwise they just f’n ignore it.’

    This is why people yell. This is why they write graffiti and disrespect property rights and institutions. Because they want to be heard. And there’s no small bit of nihilism that happens when you feel excluded from prosperity, agency, and voice.

    All that said, as this case points out, legitimate anger doesn’t always produce great results for marginalized people. And legitimate anger does not mean being right about solutions or even causes. It often does not mean protesting the right target.

    When the LA riots/uprising happened, I was in CA. Everyone was all worked up and I remember thinking, well why aren’t there more riots? Seriously if you tried to pull that shit on white folk, can you imagine? Look how angry all us comfortable white ladies got when our hard won liberties were threatened by Trumps presidency.

    Why aren’t there more uprisings???

    So what would be great is if all those of us with considerable privilege (even if we also also experience oppression in one way or another) spent as much time thinking about what mechanisms are preventing riots and then even go so far as to see that those same mechanisms are also causing the frustrations that lead to riots, and we have to fucking dismantle them without letting the kettle of our culture boil over and all out institutional integrity fall.

    When they say burn it all down. They mean it. And it’s justified when they are unserved by our institutions. But that is usually a fucking disaster. And who is it usually a disaster for? Yep… the poor and marginalized.

    I really don’t mind being called all kinds of names, but I’m going to keep fighting to dismantle this stuff carefully, even… incrementally, to minimize the damage, not to myself but to others. And if they don’t see it that way, I’m ok with that.

    Ok I stretched that moment to incorporate all my social media frustrations of the last week. Hope it’s not impossible to follow. Hope you all stopped reading if you couldn’t…

  49. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    Or the guy might just have been nuts.

  50. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Jean, lung, anyone who has an opinion about it: is there such a thing as racism towards white people?

  51. Iron Lung
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

    Kids used to try to fight me in school because I was white, but no landlord has ever refused to rent to me because I’m a white dude. I can’t really think of a time a police officer ever stopped me for being white.

    Come to think of it, being white is pretty cool. You get all the perks. No one follows you around in the mall.

    I can’t really think of a time where it’s been a burden in the U.S. I think I’ll keep being white in the U.S.

  52. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    There is bigotry towards white people. Sure. But Racism includes a power dynamic and a legacy of systemic exclusion and cultural bias. Black people being mad at white people is not racism, because it doesn’t play to an idea of racial superiority. And it doesn’t manifest in greater privilege. And it isnt tied to a larger system of oppression. They’re just legitimately mad.
    On the other hand, I personally have observed a lot of absorption of racist hierarchy’s of value within Black culture (and within a lot of communities of color) and talked with a lot of people about it. It’s not for me to say if some women of color uses the term ‘good hair’ to refer to hair that is straighter and less kinky is racist. She sure has sucked up some of that poison though.

    The same issue comes up in feminism. I think women can express gender bias, and do. I think they can be sexist towards other women, and often are, but I hesitate to say they can be sexist towards men. They can be bigoted and hateful towards men. But the power structure is different most of the time.

  53. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 4:57 pm | Permalink

    Isn’t it racist to fight or try to fight or beat the shit out of someone because they are white?

  54. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    There is a growing black supremacy movement, jean. There is a whole lot of ill shit like this around.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9c0noif3MU

  55. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    My first serious boyfriend was Black. I went looking for an apartment for us without him, and had two different places lined up and when he showed up with me to sign, they suddenly would not rent to us. Twice.

    And that was only the beginning of it. When we broke up it was like a curtain lifted and suddenly I could feel my full privilege returning as I shopped etc in my daily life without a Black man at my side. And suddenly white folk I met started saying whispered racist shit around me again… It was revealing.

    Did I experience bias during that time from Black people for having a Black boyfriend. Yep. But it was not the same thing. Not even close as what he faced just walking around being in this world. And yeah, it was Ann Arbor, mid-80’s.

  56. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    No HW– that’s bigotry. Someone on Ironlung’s FB feed straightened me out about that recently. It’s a helpful distinction.

    To call both scenarios racism is to deny the entire apparatus if historic and structural racism. That;s why white supremacists love to make the false equivalence. It denies the underpinning issue.

    As for Black Supremacists– I really don’t care. I have known a bunch of people that go the separatist route. They don’t tend to last long, because the entire system is set up to ask the oppressed to compromise. All the fucking time. Its hard to drop out of a dominant culture, even one that oppresses you.

  57. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    FWIW Hyborian, I hate girl power shit or any implication that women are in any way superior to men or less inclined to violence etc. I say that as a feminist. Many feminists like to go all goddess. That’s up to them, but I think it’s what we call an over-correction. Here’s what believing in female superiority will never do though. It will never create a system in which men are oppressed or or put men at greater deadly risk as a class. At least not unless women actually accrue more power than men and embed that power in systems over a long period of time. And we are a long long way from that.

  58. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    So if women can be bigoted but not sexist toward men then define sexism. I don’t add extra stuff onto the meaning of the word. It’s prejudice or discrimination based on sex. Racism is prejudice or discrimination based on race.

  59. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    No HW– that’s bigotry. Someone on Ironlung’s FB feed straightened me out about that recently. It’s a helpful distinction.
    To call both scenarios racism is to deny the entire apparatus if historic and structural racism. That;s why white supremacists love to make the false equivalence. It denies the underpinning issue.
    As for Black Supremacists– I really don’t care. I have known a bunch of people that go the separatist route. They don’t tend to last long, because the entire system is set up to ask the oppressed to compromise. All the fucking time. Its hard to drop out of a dominant culture, even one that oppresses you.

    It’s bigoted and racist both. It’s not a denial of historic racism to say that at all. People who say that are trying to excuse their own racism and not be held accountable for it.

  60. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I don’t want to butt in because you guys are having a nice conversation.

    Trying to get clear on your definition of “racism”, though.

    According to your definition, “a racist act” is a bigoted act, which additionally occurs within a particular superior/ subordinate power structure, within a general system that has a legacy of excluding the subordinate member, and within a culture of biased oppression against the subordinate member. Is that correct?

  61. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

    Anything that convoluted can’t be a good definition. It’s prejudice or discrimination based on race. If a black guy came up to a white guy who never did shit to him and was like “You white mother fucker, you better never come around here again! Take this, cracker!” and beat the shit out of him – how do you figure that would not be racist??? Oh, it would be bigoted but not racist because of the inherent inequity between black and white people. Some black people are REALLY FUCKING RACIST!!! It’s true. A lot are not, just like all the peoples of the world. Some are racist, some aren’t. I’d say most people of all races are not racist. I could be wrong but most people seem cool.

  62. stupid hick
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    HW: in light of events since Charlottesville, do you still believe Richard Spencer is a liberal provocateur?

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-florida-spencer-speech-20171019-story.html

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/poland-objects-planned-visit-us-white-supremacist-201403672.html

  63. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know if I would say liberal. I think it is highly likely he is a globalist plant. I don’t see the relevance of the articles you posted to the question.

  64. Jean Henry
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    FF– yes.
    HW– it’s not at all convoluted. The distinction is clear. FF summed it up well. It’s all bigotry but racism/sexism requires the additional compounding factor of historic and current systemic oppression.

    Bigotry is annoying but that’s about it. Racism and sexism are evidence of a much larger social pattern that creates adverse outcomes that are very very measurable. When people pretend racism and sexism are just an annoyance… so ‘get over it,’ they are denying the larger pattern.
    When people pretend bigotry that is not part of a larger system of oppression is the same thing as oppression, that’s a supremacist position. By which I mean it actively supports existing patterns of oppression.

    This all gets us back to centering the WWC concerns, as though they are distinct from other working class concerns, simply because they have a larger electoral advantage, but pretending it’s because they are the oppressed… and why I hate Bernie Sanders so. But really, a lot of stuff leads me back down that road.

  65. Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t mention it in the post, but I believe there’s video of the young men responsible for the racist graffiti at Concordia University, and they both appeared to be white.

  66. stupid hick
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Dude! the obvious point is he’s a white supremacist and there’s nothing phony about it! For your own good, invest some time self-reflecting to figure out why you’re so attracted to an alternate reality where he’s not. That’s all I have to say. I don’t expect an answer. I don’t know you, and there’s a limit to what you can expect from an anonymous hick on the internet. So now I’m going to do some of my own self-reflection to figure out why I bother trying to talk sense to you.

  67. Iron Lung
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:37 am | Permalink

    “Isn’t it racist to fight or try to fight or beat the shit out of someone because they are white?”

    I’m not sure why that matters. Being white, the courts will rule in my favor and jail him for life.

    The courts have my back.

  68. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 5:33 am | Permalink

    “stupid hick
    Posted October 26, 2017 at 10:17 pm | Permalink
    Dude! the obvious point is he’s a white supremacist and there’s nothing phony about it! For your own good, invest some time self-reflecting to figure out why you’re so attracted to an alternate reality where he’s not. That’s all I have to say. I don’t expect an answer. I don’t know you, and there’s a limit to what you can expect from an anonymous hick on the internet. So now I’m going to do some of my own self-reflection to figure out why I bother trying to talk sense to you.”

    Talking about Eddie Curlin or…who?

  69. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    Mark,

    The minors who painted the track at concordia were white and appeared to be in about 9th grade. Our society protects the identities of minors for good reasons.

    Someone actually used Eddie Curlins skin color to deny the existence of racism? Someone actually suggested you should have never run the story in the first place? Really? It wasn’t here was it? Where?

  70. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    “Talking about Eddie Curlin or…who?”

    Oh, Spencer. I mean how do you know? You just take everything in this world at face value? You don’t know about cointelpro or anything?

  71. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    “FF– yes.
    HW– it’s not at all convoluted. The distinction is clear. FF summed it up well. It’s all bigotry but racism/sexism requires the additional compounding factor of historic and current systemic oppression.
    Bigotry is annoying but that’s about it. Racism and sexism are evidence of a much larger social pattern that creates adverse outcomes that are very very measurable. When people pretend racism and sexism are just an annoyance… so ‘get over it,’ they are denying the larger pattern.
    When people pretend bigotry that is not part of a larger system of oppression is the same thing as oppression, that’s a supremacist position. By which I mean it actively supports existing patterns of oppression.
    This all gets us back to centering the WWC concerns, as though they are distinct from other working class concerns, simply because they have a larger electoral advantage, but pretending it’s because they are the oppressed… and why I hate Bernie Sanders so. But really, a lot of stuff leads me back down that road.”

    Your opinion is the racist one because you discriminate based on race. You think no matter how hateful a black person is the worst their behavior can be is annoying/bigoted.

  72. Jcp2
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m going to guess that you are also a MRA.

  73. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Had to look that up: men’s rights activist? I am for human rights for everyone without prejudice. When we divide against each other we are playing into the hands of the establishment. They fear us coming together to claim our right to live in freedom.

  74. Jcp2
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    It sounds like you are really against corporatism rather than globalism in general. It also sounds like you would support efforts to diminish established patterns of rules and regulations that implicitly favor one groups of people versus other groups of people based on characteristics beyond the individual’s control.

  75. EOS
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Racism will end on the day that we acknowledge that every individual adds diversity to a group and when people stop making comments attributable to a group based on the melanin content of their skin. It is just as disturbing to read that minority groups need extra funding for their schools, extra job training programs, and different standards for criminal enforcement, as it is to read racist graffiti. Stop identifying people based on their race, but on their shared culture as Americans who have the best opportunities in the world to achieve greatness.

  76. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    It might sound like that to you. It’s true I’m not a big fan of most major corporations but I don’t see that as being at odds with anti-globalism. You would have to be specific about what efforts you are speaking of. I’m not trying to get in one of your little traps.

  77. Iron Lung
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    I am surprised that the Mr. Warlord was not aware of the “men’s rights movement.”

    He might find validation there. It could be therapeutic for him.

  78. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 8:39 am | Permalink

    Iron Lung
    “I am surprised that the Mr. Warlord was not aware of the “men’s rights movement.”
    He might find validation there. It could be therapeutic for him.”

    Oookay, mr. dipshit. You need therapy for being a virtue-signalling racist nihilistic tool that never has any substance. All you ever do is grind a discussion into the dirt with bullshitty quips.

  79. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Jean,

    I think most people have heard similar formulations of your definition of a “racist act”. According to your definition a “bigoted act” becomes a “racist act” when it meets three additional conditions:

    1) the bigoted act must occur against a subordinate in a particular superior/subordinate relationship.
    2) the bigoted act must occur within a general system that has a history of creating disadvantage for the particular subordinate.
    3) the bigoted act must occur within a culture that has a history of creating disadvantage for the particular subordinate.

    Hopefully, the reason is obvious but I am not even going to bother addressing condition #1.

    The reason this definition is inadequate toward classifying and differentiating particular acts is that this kind of formulation mistakingly attempts to use the classification of a general system (condition #2) and culture in general (condition #3) and apply the general (and otherwise valid judgment), to individual acts. Although the judgment of the general system and general culture is ultimately made up of a totality of particular acts, thanks to hard work of social scientists, the general classification of the system is based upon a ‘judgment of generality’. The general (and otherwise valid judgments), when used to define “a racist act”, fails to account for subordinate systems of disadvantage, which, although follow general trends of racism in our society, are not necessarily dictated by skin color within the particular circumstances of a particular individual person. These systems of advantage/disadvantage that individuals (of all colors) find themselves in are things like individual systems of poverty, individual social networks, access to education systems, etc. Likewise, The general judgments of culture fail to account for subordinate subcultures wherein there is a reordering of the assignment of advantage/ disadvantage to different groups and individuals. The judgment and classification of particular acts requires a more full accounting. The definition you are using is purposefully designed to avoid any such an accounting. The mistaken application of a generality to a particular *is* the logic of racism.

  80. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    That is amazing, Flakes.

  81. Iron Lung
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    I simply recommended that the Mr. Warlord might explore something of possible interest to him, yet he insists on name calling.

    I think that a supportive community of like minded people might help him.

  82. EOS
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    FF,

    Exactly. The “logic” of racism is the fallacious application of a generality to a particular. Yet many who think of themselves as good and “non-racist” advocate for political solutions that do exactly the same.

  83. Iron Lung
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    The trouble with right wing calls to “end racism by ignoring it” is the unwillingness to recognize how politically invested the American right has been in keeping it alive for decades.

  84. disinterested observer
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    In my impartial opinion, Hyborian Warlord does more to drive a discussion into the dirt than Iron Lung. Victory goes to Hyborian Warlord.

  85. EOS
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Sorry, but it is the political left that is vested in the politics of victimization and whose policies reinforce the negative stereotypes and sustain the racial discord.

  86. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    How do you figure? I am talking about the obvious issue and he just keeps making inane quips. If you disagree with something I said then just respond to it. Otherwise you aren’t doing much.

  87. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    “Iron Lung
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 9:50 am | Permalink
    I simply recommended that the Mr. Warlord might explore something of possible interest to him, yet he insists on name calling.
    I think that a supportive community of like minded people might help him.”

    But that’s just a really, really weak ad hominem to suggest I need help though, isn’t it? And another weak insinuation about there being like-minded individuals at men’s rights meetings. It’s sorry to think of you sitting there so miserable and just spreading it around on the web with lame comments like that.

  88. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Well Warlord is far from alone:
    “More than half of whites — 55 percent — surveyed say that, generally speaking, they believe there is discrimination against white people in America today. Hershman’s view is similar to what was heard on the campaign trail at Trump rally after Trump rally. Donald Trump catered to white grievance during the 2016 presidential campaign and has done so as president as well.

    Notable, however, is that while a majority of whites in the poll say discrimination against them exists, a much smaller percentage say that they have actually experienced it. Also important to note is that 84 percent of whites believe discrimination exists against racial and ethnic minorities in America today.”

    http://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836/majority-of-white-americans-think-theyre-discriminated-against

  89. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    You discriminate against white people yourself, Jean. The very idea that whites cannot be discriminated against in the USA is discriminatory.

  90. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    FF: It’s really not to hard to provide a full accounting of the impact of systemic structural and cultural racism. It’s literally every where in the data.

    Do you really want to go there? Or would you just like to look it up yourself. I suggest googling disparity of outcomes by race +health care; sentencing; arrest; housing; income; wealth; access to capital; longevity; infant mortality; education; clean air; clean water; etc etc etc.

    If you were looking at that kind of disparity from any other country, you would say, look a marginalized and oppressed population. Ironlung is right. The denial of structural racism in America is poisonous tool of the right, and many on the left and middle have sucked it up, because it relieves them of responsibility for solving a really tough and persistent problem.

    I’m reminded of what Trevor Noah said about American racism v South African. He called US racism insidious. It’s not just structural– many of those structures were supposed to be removed. It’s self-perpetuating because it;s deeply engrained in our culture and we keep re-working systems of oppression every generation. Right now it’s most obvious in the many comprehensive mechanisms of mass incarceration, But you can literally look at any other area of common good and access to well-being and prosperity and find evidence.

    Sometimes victimization is real. Look at the data.

  91. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    PS Feel free to compare the data of poor whites to poor blacks or even middle class blacks… the evidence is still there.

  92. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    HW– I wish that that poll had used the term racism v discrimination, because I think the outcome would have been different.

  93. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Racism is discrimination based on race.

  94. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    No Jean. You don’t understand what I wrote. Try again.

  95. EOS
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Disparity of outcomes is not proof of discrimination. You’re conflating.

  96. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    FF– I did not. I suggested you look up your assumption that racial inequity of outcomes in the US in fungible by class/race. The reason I call it systemic racism is that it’s embedded, and impacts people across the race. Will being poor (or gay, or a woman, etc) mean you are more impacted by racial inequity than if you are an educated and well of Black person? Sure. But being an educated and well-off or even rich person does not exclude one from the experience of racial bias. It merely excludes one from the experience of poverty. There are still adverse outcomes across most other sectors. Again, it’s in the data. Please look it up.

    I understand wanting to think the experience of poverty is the same (shitty) for everyone, but it’s not. I understand wanting to think that movement towards economic equality would solve all other issues in its wake. But this is demonstrably not so. This idea that money solves all problems is false, but prevalent. I understand why people feel that way.

    The example I gave above of my old boyfriend and the barriers and harassment he experienced should be telling. His parents were educated, a teacher and insurance exec. He had a great education and Cass Tech and a full ride. He dressed like a hipster before there were hipsters. He was into comic books, alternative music, french film, German theater and very European Art. He was considered a true weirdo by his family and neighborhood friends. And yet we could not get housing easily and he was followed in every store, and frequently pulled aside for no reason by store security. Because he spent a lot of time in super artsy (ie leftist) white spaces, he was followed all the time. We were followed all the time. He never got arrested because he was SOOO fucking careful. Did you ever worry about being arrested or followed at an art show or a museum? doubt it. He took up going to France for the relief. Literally rest from harassment and otherness. PS He never talked about this stuff in public and was never politically active. It didn’t make him angry. It was STRESSFUL. I became politically active after the experience of being with him daily. Grace and Jimmy Boggs was and are my inspiration. You might like their work.

    How do you feel about reparations, FF?
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

  97. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    EOS– Gross disparity of outcomes is proof of oppression unless you believe in racial or cultural superiority.
    We’ve been round this block before.

  98. disinterested observer
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    I’m not here to debate anyone. I just call ’em like I see ’em, and you can make of it what you will.

  99. Frosted Flakes
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    No Jean. You don’t understand what I wrote.

  100. EOS
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Disparity of outcomes is inevitable where there is freedom of choice. Has nothing to do with racial or cultural superiority.

  101. Lynne
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    One of the best accounts about our nation’s racist history and its present impacts is this gem by Ta-Nehisi Coates. It is long to be sure but imho, worth the read

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

    And then maybe afterwards, we can start to discuss the concept of intersectionality in terms of oppression/privilege

  102. Lynne
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    oh dang. I didn’t notice Jean already posted that excellent piece by Coates. Just goes to show how dang wonderful it is though. Seriously, he explains things very well and it really is a well researched article too

  103. Lynne
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    I will also say that I don’t understand what FF wrote but it kind of sounds like maybe he is getting towards the concept of intersectionality. Perhaps not but here is more info

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

  104. Lynne
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    EOS, it is true that any system with choice will have disparity of outcomes but a fair system would start everyone close to the same place and that is what is missing in our system. Some people have to battle all kinds of additional obstacles because of their gender or their race or their economic status or any number of other things.

  105. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    And in an equitable society the disparity of outcomes will not be consistently lopsided against one demographic– especially a demographic classification which is meaningless outside of cultural context.

  106. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    FF– if I’m getting it wrong, then please expand. Clearly I’m missing some critical point. Happens all the time. Since I have given you more than my share of my take, it must be clear to you what I’m missing. Please illuminate that for me.

    I have read your post four times.

  107. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Ok I’ll try one more time: Are you trying to assert that each case needs to be taken on its own, within its own individual context to determine whether or not it is discriminatory. I wouldn’t argue that. I’m not sure why you think I’m quick to the calling racism trigger, but I don;t think I am. Nor do I think I’m infallible or such accusations should not be questioned.

    But racism itself is structural and systemic. Discrimination outside of systemic oppression happens. I acknowledged that. But it’s not racism, unless it feeds into and off of a larger structural inequity… ie oppression.

    I think Pete’s points made that very clear.

    The proof of oppression is not in the examination of individual acts, but in the examination of outcomes. And there is plenty of proof there, of the hindering and harmful effects of racism, sexism, homophobia. Not just the individual acts, but the impact en masse.

    Arguing individual acts ad infinitum comes off as denying the larger systemic problem. I’m sure you don;t mean to do that.

  108. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Context is everything. Outside of a system of oppressive sexual violence and workplace inequity, I feel certain that workplace romances, even between people of different rank, and certainly sexual banter at work, would not be of any concern. I would like to live in a world where that was the case.

    Injustice is bad for the economy, for wealth creation, for communities, for culture, for sex, for public health, for friendship, for innovation, for safety and for all kinds of pursuits of happiness.

  109. Lynne
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Jean, my issue is cultural appropriation. The truth is that I want to live in a society where people can dress up as people from other cultures for Halloween, make the kind of music they want, have the kind of hair styles they want, etc. Ok, I know that people can actually do all of those things but not without some pretty valid criticism headed their way. The solution is to end the power imbalances in our culture. But unfortunately most who benefit from such power imbalances are unwilling to give them up and even go so far as to feel discriminated against when they lose even the smallest little bit of privilege.

  110. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 5:18 pm | Permalink

    My son’s “Angry Pillsbury Doughboy” costume was not coming together quite right, and I said you look like Missy Elliot. Go as her. And he said, “Mom!” and looked over his shoulder like someone might be listening, “Blackface? Are you crazy?” Which was not what I was thinking but also, clearly. I wasn’t thinking. So pissed off dough boy it is, with lots of extra stuffing.

    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/ltlgca/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-reminder–race-is-not-a-costume

  111. Iron Lung
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    In the U.S., people stress over Halloween costumes.

  112. EOS
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    Power imbalances and other inequities are the fuel that drives a person to build a better mousetrap. Equal outcomes, regardless of talent or effort, robs everybody of the pursuit of their dreams and relegates all to a meaningless subsistence begging for the essentials for living..

  113. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Ironlung, that’s just how toxic racist culture is. It’s not just a halloween costume. And it’s not just sex. And it’s not just competition. And it’s not just hard knocks. It’s oppression.

    EOS– I don;t want equal outcomes across the board. I want equivalent outcomes overall by race, which as you say, does not exist in any real way except as created by our culture. Black people have been here for 300 fucking years. Please tell me why you believe there is a gross disparity of outcome?

  114. Lynne
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    EOS, so what you are saying is that the best system for white people is one of black supremacy so that white people will have the fuel that drives them to be more innovative?

    I think that there is something to say for adversity when it comes to building character but it unfortunately tends to prevent both individuals and groups from things like growing wealth, increasing income, and obtaining education,

  115. Lynne
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Iron Lung. Stressing about things like Halloween costumes (and dogs on leashes and declawing cats) is due to our great privilege as Americans. WE are very fortunate and yes we all tend to forget how lucky we are. Thank you for the reminder

  116. Jean Henry
    Posted October 27, 2017 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    http://theweek.com/articles/732849/why-white-people-think-theyre-real-victims-racism

  117. EOS
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 4:52 am | Permalink

    Before you assume that disparity overall must be attributed to widespread racism, perhaps you should consider the choices that lead to the situation. A great number of minority persons are highly successful in our culture. Their choices probably didn’t include pregnancy at a young age which led them to drop out of school and head a single parent family dependent on government assistance. Their choices probably didn’t include dropping out of school to make big money by engaging in criminal activity. When they attended school, they probably chose a major that led to a profession and a clear path for employment.

    The reality is that it is not possible for everybody to start at the same place. But many have successfully overcome a number of obstacles to achieve success. Upward mobility is more prevalent in the United States than almost anywhere else in the world. Sympathetic Whites who discourage minorities from trying by claiming systemic racism blocks any opportunity are a huge part of the problem.

  118. Jean Henry
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 6:00 am | Permalink

    EOS— you could adjust for all those factors and the data still dies disiariry of outcomes. I already made this point with FF. You could look at educated, relatively successful Black Americans and they are still experiencing some disparity of outcome relative to whites with the same class level. It’s overwhelming data of disparity and there is lots of evidence of different access to equal treatment in care, education etc— just plain bias that is pervasive. And a lot of that bias, which you are demonstrating, originated in the kind of thinking you are expressing here.

    Please see the link I posted above. You have drunk the poison. It’s hard not to because we are swimming in it.

    I’ve had this conversation with you before. It’s not going to get us anywhere. You’re wrong and thecdata doesn’t support your assertions. It’s a mode of thinking that allows the country to ignore the issue and perpetuate the problem at once.

  119. Jean Henry
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 6:04 am | Permalink

    Also check your data on upward mobility. We aren’t doing as well as many places now. Too much wealth hoarding. Too much bias. Not enough money cycling around at the top and not enough in the hand of those who can use it. And of course having citizens in poverty is expensive. In part because they lose mobility…

  120. Jean Henry
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 6:05 am | Permalink

    Too much money cycling around at the top** (correction)

  121. Jean Henry
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    Some of the most interesting data showing disisrity of outcomes is around economic mobility. If you look at the wealth disparity (worse than the income disparity, Black American are on track to have an average net worth of zero by 2050. Hard to have any mobility without access to capital without the capacity to build equity, on top of all the other bias. Before telling me that wealth inequality between
    Blacks and white Americans is due to poor financial management, if siggest you read the reparations article linked twice here.

  122. EOS
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    No, I’m not the one exhibiting bias. Independent of race, if you drop out of school, your chances of success are diminished. Access to K-12 education is free to everyone. Access to public libraries with free internet and high quality online instruction is available to everyone. I haven’t claimed that there is not disparity in outcomes. But the disparity is not prima fascia evidence of systemic racism. I’ve never had access to wealth or had a dime of assistance to obtain higher education. And yet I found a way to overcome personal obstacles as do most others. We would all be better if we provided encouragement for others to set high goals and obtain them rather than offer excuses for failure. The difference between us is that I see individuals who are intelligent and capable where you see victims of oppression in need of handouts which ultimately becomes the very reason for failure.

  123. Lynne
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    EOS, I grew up among very successful black people. Both those who were born to upper middle class professionals and those who were in the same magnet schools as me because they were very motivated. I was able to see up close that even when poverty isnt a factor, racism is.

    I know that I learned fairly early not to go on dates with black boys out to the ‘burbs unless one wanted to experience harassment from people offended by mixed race dating. Not unless one wanted to get pulled over by cops who just couldnt understand that a black teenager could be driving a luxury car unless he was dealing drugs and the concept that maybe he was driving his lawyer father’s car difficult for them to grasp. I know a lot of successful black people who have made all of the good individual choices that lead to success and they all have had a harder road than most white people. Racism exists in this country.

  124. Jean Henry
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    EOS needs to spend some time in Detroit Schools… And then compare them to neighboring schools.
    Also there is a compounding impact of all these forms of structural inequitable access to opportunity plus plain old bias that she is denying by focusing on singular factors. This is the common strategy of racism denialists, aka white supremacists. Poverty has similar impacts everywhere, but racism exacerbates all of them and creates obstacles to advancement that are external to the individual. The whole point of talking about systemic oppression is that it’s not one factor. To point to just a few and blame them for outcomes is bullshittery about fuckery.

    And again the evidence is there. This is like climate denial. EOS will cherry pick her points and not look at any disruptive evidence. She responds in generalities when we bring up specifics, and anecdote when we bring up broad scale evidence. It’s tiresome. I’m done.

  125. Jean Henry
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    To be clear I call EOS approach white supremacist, because the implication is that it’s individual failing that relegates an entire class of people to inequitable outcomes. Which by extension means they are inferior. She regularly states that race is just skin tone that it was made up. All true. But then she blames inequity on that entire group being somehow lesser. And it’s not the fault of racist culture or the system. It’s their individual fault across a class of people, whose only inherent difference is more Melanin. White Supremacy 101.

  126. Iron Lung
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    “Access to K-12 education is free to everyone. ”

    Access to water is available to everyone but that didn’t stop kids in Flint from getting poisoned.

    I guess those kids were just stupid for drinking that water instead of Dasani.

    What world do you live in?

  127. EOS
    Posted October 28, 2017 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    No, the entire class of people don’t experience inequitable outcomes. Many make great achievements regardless of the fact that a small minority are racist. Take a look at what the individuals do to achieve success in spite of adversity and encourage others to follow suit.

    By your definition, there is no systemic sexism, because women are the majority of undergrads, graduate students, and students in professional schools. Most doctors graduating today are women. If there is widespread sexism in our culture, women have found ways to achieve success in spite of it. I don’t think that you would want to discourage a woman from persuing her dreams merely because she might not think the playing field is level. Why is it that you are unable to give the same level of respect to a person of color?

  128. Posted October 28, 2017 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    I guess white power groups read the Daily Caller.

  129. Iron Lung
    Posted October 29, 2017 at 5:41 am | Permalink

    Comical views on the world. All societal problems have been solved. We no longer need to worry about anything at all.

    Just sit back and let Donald Trump do his magical work.

  130. Lynne
    Posted October 29, 2017 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    EOS is right. We are hurting white people with our system of favoritism towards those with white skin. It is time for a system that favors POC. She wont object since such systems dont really hurt individuals.

  131. EOS
    Posted October 29, 2017 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    No problem. The system favors those who make the right choices. I’m an overcomer. The odds are ever in my favor.

  132. Iron Lung
    Posted October 29, 2017 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    lol

  133. anonymous
    Posted October 29, 2017 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    For those of you who still need evidence that racism exists.

    Tariq Nasheed: A group white supremacists from the #whitelivesmatter march assaulted an interracial couple at a bar in TN tonight.

    https://twitter.com/tariqnasheed/status/924494085737476096

  134. ypsidoodledandy
    Posted October 31, 2017 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Mark, you do a disservice to your readers when you let about four people hijack this thread, posting a combined 130 or so comments, arguing with each other back and forth.

  135. ypsidoodledandy
    Posted October 31, 2017 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    I would like to learn some more facts–there is nothing at this point about his motivation–is he mentally ill and not being treated? A disgruntled former student? Or something else?

    And I can’t believe nobody made the obvious trolling remark–the Russians put him up to it!!

    (or maybe somebody did, I wasn’t going to actually read all the grenade posts those four people were lobbing back and forth).

  136. iRobert
    Posted June 6, 2018 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Was there ever any doubt in anyone’s mind that it would turn out to be a black person who did this? Everyone I brought it up to seemed very confident that would be the way it turned out. It seemed like everybody knew.

    I just thought it should be painted over immediately and then cleaned up completely. Why isn’t that always the response? Nobody needs to reward and encourage asinine behavior, regardless of who it is behind it.

    The mystery for me has always been that, despite Mark’s constant attempts to ingratiate himself to the black community, they all continue to avoid him like the plague. What is it about Mark that black people find so intolerable?

  137. iRobert
    Posted June 7, 2018 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    I was bracing myself for all the outrage I expected my previous comment would provoke.

    Maybe I should spray-paint my comments on the walls of a substandard local university.

  138. Iron Lung 2
    Posted June 7, 2018 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    A very timely response.

  139. iRobert
    Posted June 7, 2018 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Okay, well, that wasn’t quite as ‘charged’ as I’d hoped the outraged response to my comments would be, but I guess I’ll take it. Thank you for that, Iron Lung 2. It’s like your sarcasm suggests – I can’t expect to be an effective trouble maker if I’m more than half a year behind everyone else on these developments. I should probably just admit it to myself – I’m way too lazy to be any sort of effective provocateur. Well, that dream is dead. I wonder what I’ll do now.

  140. Iron Lung 2
    Posted June 7, 2018 at 10:10 pm | Permalink

    Half of succeeding lies simply in showing up.

  141. Jcp2
    Posted June 7, 2018 at 10:41 pm | Permalink

    Showing up half of simply succeeding lies.

  142. iRobert
    Posted June 11, 2018 at 8:38 am | Permalink

    Were there protests outside Eddie Curlin’s house/apartment/jailcell?

    I knew the vandal wasn’t a white supremacist. “KKK was written in three different colors; red, white and blue. White supremicists are not capable of that much creativity, artistic or otherwise.

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