When did punks become hippies?

Occasionally, as a public service, I like to reprint something here from Facebook, for all the folks that I can’t bring myself to “friend.”


So, any thoughts? Am I alone in thinking that the folks who gathered here in Ann Arbor for Punk Week weren’t really punks, at least in the classic sense? And I realize that I sound like an angry old man when I say this, but I remember punks. I lived in Atlanta when the Sex Pistols first came over to the states. I’ve even seen the punk episode of Quincy… And I don’t think these punks we’re seeing wash up on the shores of Ann Arbor are the same species. They’re something new, some kind of hybrid. I don’t have a problem with it, but I’m curious as to when it happened. Was it a gradual thing, or was there one big event where everything changed?

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  1. Posted August 18, 2010 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Now, I plan to post this to Facebook. And, then, once it’s on Facebook, I’ll write about it here. And so on, and so on.

  2. Posted August 18, 2010 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    An anonymous friend says:

    I played one of the Punk Week shows. It seemed like everyone who was original part of Punk Week was disowning it. I got non stop apologies from the moment we arrived. A lot of good people there and a lot of great events but there was way more smelly pieces of shit. Asshole fights and dog fights. One punk/hippie asshole was punching his dog. I even saw a puppy covered in mosquitoes left tied to a back pack. None of these animals are fixed. Dogs are an accessory to these assholes. They’re mainly there to guard there shit when they sleep. I’ve played Punk Week on and off for almost 10 years and I hope this was the last one.

  3. Mark H.
    Posted August 18, 2010 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    I have no idea what or where punk week was, but the apparent confusion between punk and hippie styles is curious indeed. More to the point of my comment, however, is that I must object, Mark, to your reference to “hippies in the classic Manson tradition.” The hippies predated the Manson family by a few very significant years, and aside from long hair and some drug usage, had nothing in common: No similiarity of professed ideas or goals. Charles Manson was a killer and an ex-con, and a drug addict; he recruited followers. He was no hippie – not classic or otherwise. His photos may now strike people as hippie looking, but he was no more a true part of the hippie counterculture of the late 1960s than you or I would be true members of the Wall Street elite if we dressed up in the same expensive clothes and drank the same expensive fancy whiskey as members of that group do today.

    Manson emulated the style of the hippies, yes; but that doesn’t make him a hippie.

  4. Andy Ypsilanti
    Posted August 18, 2010 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Maybe I am getting old, but if what I’ve been seeing on the streets of Ann Arbor is the new punk, well, I’m glad that Punk Week it over there and not here in Ypsi. But that’s maybe because when I was their age, I supported my nasty habits by holding down a job instead of panhandeling…

  5. Bob
    Posted August 18, 2010 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    I used to love talking to my most sanctimonious, hardcore-punk friends and busting out this fact for their hippie hating brains… Many of their heroes from the Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Fugazi, SST records scene ADORED the Grateful Dead. It’s true, and well documented in Michael Azerrad’s fab book ‘Our Band Could Be Your Life.’ Much of the whole DIY punk scene was based on the off-the-grid, rule breaking path of Jerry Garcia & company. I’m not sure if it’s exactly the connection you’re talking about but I’ve always loved the irony of it. Most of the second generation and beyond punks seem to be incredibly narrow minded in general.

  6. Posted August 19, 2010 at 1:19 am | Permalink

    The basic secondhand back story is that some working, creative diy/zine/protest style punks started a week of festive punk events to bring their culturally significant subcultural community together with a lot of success and over the years the events have attracted more and more traveling types the majority of whom historically have been nice young folks living their life in opposition to oppression. But this year specifically it seems that the word was spread nationwide among various segments of the vagrant community that anyone who wanted could crash at some house in Ann Arbor and some energetic young anarchists would go out of their way to make them comfortable. So the actual Ann Arbor punk community is stressed out since their volunteers are busy making sure that these out-of-towners don’t mess up their neighborhoods and meanwhile is demonized by the media as what someone on another recent post referred to as shitbags. But that’s just empathetical speculation. We just hope that this negative media coverage doesn’t sully the reputation of the beautiful festive community celebration of peace and freedom that is the (12th annual?) shopping cart race.

  7. Knox
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    An evil scientist created this strain of creature in a lab, using the most foul elements of both the hippy and the punk.

  8. Posted August 19, 2010 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    I’ve been involved in Punk Week in the past, but not for the last 4-5 years. My last involvement was playing in one of the generator shows maybe 3 years ago or so.

    It has become overrun with an undesirable element which has been giving the local punks a bad name. Basically, there is a subculture of “traveling punks” who hitchhike/trainhop during the summer, and Punk Week has become a destination for them. Some people they they are trust fundies who are rebelling against their parents, but I think it’s probably just a mix of young people from different backgrounds. Whatever the reasons for them living this lifestyle fantasy (and it really is a fantasy – you’ll notice they fall in the 18-25 demographic nearly exclusively), it’s no excuse for the poor treatment of their accessory dogs, and no part of the punk scene I was in ever thought it was cool to steal.

    A friend of mine who had been heavily involved with punk week printed shirts this year that say “It’s not PUNK, it’s WEAK” and I hear he sold out of them right away.

    The last straw for me was seeing one of the drunk traveling kids piss himself on a couch, and the puddle that developed on the floor of the old RAW house turned into mud from all the dirt. For me, much of the allure of the anarchist punk ethos died that day.

    Today, I live a quiet life on a farm. I still enjoy the music, though I don’t go to live shows anymore. I still hold the DIY ethic, but direct it in a more practical way toward renovating my house. Rather than seek to destroy the system, I quietly prepare for its demise. Just like the last scene in the movie SLC Punk, maybe I was just a goddamn poseur all along.

  9. Edward
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Two basic rules apply.

    1. Everything cool has it’s end.

    2. Mother fucking assholes ruin everything.

  10. Billy LaLonde
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    hahaha…Ann Arbor “Punks”, thinking they’re better than other strains of “Punks”. Well, what a suprise. Maybe one day the magical A2 bubble will *pop*, and the real world will seep in a little. I hate to tell you, but these “crust punks” have been around for a long time. There are assholes in any scene, and that’s what punk has been for 30 years…a scene. There is a spirit buried deep below all the different layers, but the outer skin is a scene. I think it’s funny that most people who considered themselves punk rock in their youth, now consider themselves some sort of “artist” now. Give it a rest…Now…if you could only find a way to get that coathanger applied “TR” off your arm, you’d be all set.

  11. Andy C
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Toblerone Bananas, ZRC Erik, and Edward all hit the nail on the head. Punk Weak has/had great people behind it but it’s grown too big. I really wanted to go to the Bandemere Park event. A few local made a floating stage. It sounded great but I knew it would be over run with crusty hobos. It’s funny the comments to this are very similar to the comments about “The Gathering of the Juggalos”.

    The RAW House was a great place to play and I loved going there but all good things must come to an end. The concerts, movie nights, bike workshops, or potlucks didn’t shut down the house, it was because it was turning into a flop house for hobo punks. Old places close and new places spring up. It’s ever changing.

  12. Art
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    Mark H, If you had to put a label on it, the Manson family was a hippie commune. That may be offensive to former hippies, but that’s what they were. Granted, they took it off in a weird direction, but, at their core, at least in the parlance of the day, they were hippies. I think Mark M. is right when he says it’s a similar strain of hippieism that we’re seeing today. It’s antisocial, paranoid, and drug fueled. My guess is that if we took a poll, most of these “crusties” idolize Manson than, say, Black Flag.

  13. Posted August 19, 2010 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    The thing that drew me to punk (now over 20 years ago) was the freedom of ideas and the spirit of collaboration. Everybody could get together and put on a show where everyone could (and often would) help out in some way. That’s what I liked about Josh. He started the whole thing as a way to have some fun under the radar, but not do any lasting harm in the process and everyone involved was willing to help out, even if just in some small way.

    These hobos didn’t come here to contribute to that spirit. In fact, they didn’t come to contribute at all. As Andy C. put it, “They are thieves.”

  14. Billy LaLonde
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    I’m really sad for all you old farts out there. I really hope you have good luck keeping these damn, weird looking kids off your lawn in the future. Besides….they are probably on drugs. Look at the way they dress. and their behavior…how disrespectful. Back in our day, we kept our mohawks at respectable lengths, and we never let our Minor Threat tapes play too loud. People had jobs, and they were trying to sleep, for christ’s sake!

  15. Andy C
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    You’re missing the point Billy. The kids TODAY who put on these Punk Week events don’t like them either. It’s nothing to do with looks it’s all about actions. In just one day this week I saw: fights, bands guarding their equipment because people were stealing shit left and right, loose dogs fighting, a puppy left tied to a backpack covered in mosquitoes, and one asshole punched his dog in the head to discipline it. That was just on one of the nights. At the same time there was some great people there and over all we had a good time. Ever have a party and a couple of dudes show up and just start smashing up your house? It’s kind of like that. I guess I expect more from the punk scene. It really makes me respect the local kids and how much cool stuff they do. The Ann Arbor punk scene has people from 15 to 50 in it and I love the diversity. I just hope it doesn’t get too bad of a rap from all the traveling hobo hippies. I know we have to take the bad with the good.

  16. jean
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    I first noticed about 11 years ago when I came back to A2 that the kids that would’ve been punk, then ravers had become some hybrid that looked well– tribal– this was the local scene, not the nomads. They lived collectively, salvaged food and stuff from dumpsters, had piercings and tattoos, wore mohawks and bits of leather and bone, listened to electronica and hard core, worked in bars restaurants and on organic farms. I would lecture them on how Punk was a response to hippies, and the two could not mix. And they laughed and said they weren’t hippies. (they admired the punks) It just seems like an evolution of style, but the substance stays the same. Plenty of punk and hardcore kids were assholes too. Plenty were nice. Plenty were disaffected kids from the rich Detroit suburbs. Others decidedly weren’t. Some were drug addicts and runaways. One thing always seems to hold true, the weird resentment and suspicion one group has of the next group in the door, whether from a different generation, another scene or just another town. Mostly what they have is a lot in common. Those kids from back then are now a pretty productive group within the creative class in Ypsi, A2 and Detroit now. They aren’t done being upset about the state of things, now they’re just busy doing what they can to fix it. A cynic is just an optimist with a broken heart. Hard to be useful in the world if you stay that way forever.

  17. Anonymatt
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    When did the punks become hippies?
    Was it after they lost their sweet bippies
    in a bet? Or was it thought trippy
    to dress in a muu-muu like Zippy?

  18. Elf
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    This is the fucking future, people. And I’m not kidding. Nomadic tribes, stealing to survive. Warlords, mother fuckers. Get used to it.

  19. Posted August 19, 2010 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Even within the community there’s never been a consensus about what is and isn’t “punk”. Not even from the start with British vs. New York style. The only constant has been the one asshole trying to shit in your sundae. I like the idea of punk week, and I think the world needs more underground artsy community events that operate without official sanctioning in the margins of the law.

  20. Burt Reynolds
    Posted August 19, 2010 at 3:06 pm | Permalink

    I enjoy how how the festivities has a Myspace page. No one uses Myspace anymore. Thats so punk rock.

  21. Posted August 19, 2010 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    I see your point, and agree Andy. You are right on many fronts. I’m just saying that all of that existed as well, way back then too. Maybe it was different here in the greater Ann Arbor area, but I’ve dealt with plenty of assholes at hall shows, and parties, and other gatherings of the like. It’s not a new thing. I’d be disappointed too if someone was pissing on my parade, but I’d also feel the need to piss on their leg as well. Maybe the local punk consortium needs to police their own shindig, and crack some heads. That’s how it used to be done. But they won’t because they don’t really exist today. They are too busy with their kids, and jobs, and everything else they lashed out against when they were young…and punk. And I don’t mean that as a dis…just don’t act like you are something that you aren’t anymore.

  22. Posted August 19, 2010 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    Back in the day, a hippie I knew was at a party. Lots of beer, not enough cups. The hippie held a cup. A punk walked up, said, “Would you like me to get you a beer?” Hippie said, “Yah, thanks man” and gave the punk his cup.

    Punk took the cup and drank from it for hours until he puked and passed out at which point the hippie got the cup back, but by then the beer was gone.

    True story.

  23. Posted August 20, 2010 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    My roommate & I just discussed this tonight. I would agree with you, although hippies tend to be pacifists and a lot of these that I encounter tend to be pretty brazen and sometimes even aggressive. I call them Urban Nomads.

  24. Posted August 20, 2010 at 12:56 am | Permalink

    Also, this has been going on for a long time as far as I know. I have a close friend who I guess you could say is one of them, in a fraternal sense. There used to be a house maybe on Catherine that housed lots of them (and by “housed” I mean in an underground dirt punk railroad sort of passing-through way) and put on punk shows all the time. To my knowledge it’s been vacated & boarded up just in the last year or two. Now I see them frequently pouring into & out of a house at the corner of Main & what is it…? Kingsley? Just before the mattress store & the New Center area. Anyway, I get the sense that it’s been ever-evolving but the good places for them to crash have devolved from private residences to city parks.

    I tend to not mind them much because most are pretty cool people and don’t bother anyone but there are some bad seeds in the crowd who really ruin it for everyone else, mistreating their dogs & everyone around them, harassing people who don’t give them change or cigarettes & so on. It’s a shame for those “punks” who tend to live locally for the most part & do respect Ann Arbor & the other people in it.

  25. Carnival Glass
    Posted August 20, 2010 at 4:35 am | Permalink

    Hippies are dumb old people. Punks are dumb middle aged people. Kind of the same thing, don’t you think?

  26. Edward
    Posted August 20, 2010 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    For people who try so hard to not fit in, and be like everyone else, it’s weird that they all look so much alike. Does that make sense?

  27. Kristen Cuhran
    Posted August 20, 2010 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    This has been the most interesting thread! Thanks for sharing people.

    I know nothing at all about the punk scene. But I will say this…
    From my desk in Kerrytown I watch out the window while I type on the computer. I’ve seen the traveling “punks” for days now- also by the house on Main/Feltch (or wherever). [I’m really upset to hear about the whole treatment of animals thing- wonder if they are straight edge or members of PETA. Sounds like they aren’t.]

    In the early 90’s I went to Dead shows (yes, I did. Stop your laughing and poo-pooing now). I was never “hippy enough” to totally fit in-and didn’t try AT ALL-but “totally” fitting in would have required me to become waaaay more dirty. with a dog. no type of cleansing allowed (did I mention dirty)? dreads. I also went to 2 or 3 Rainbow gatherings where there were extremely dirty traveling hippies. I would say in both settings these traveling/dirty types were 20 percent of the population.
    Well, guess what? The folks passing by my office window look EXACTLY the same. But with more piercings (again- I was going to shows in the early/mid-90’s so piercings were just becoming the rage).

    So- that said, my reflection is that those DIRTY “hippies” and these “punks” are the same people. hippy and punk combined. When you want to live on the street as jean mentioned. These folks were and are trying to live outside of corporate culture.

    Then you have your “every day” hippies (believing in land based living or walking gentle on the earth but participating in society as a whole) and your “every day” punks. Which is what most of you sound like you were (the GOOD punks) .

    F*** the man- but can I have a latte with that?

  28. applejack
    Posted August 20, 2010 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

    The term I’ve heard for them is Gutter Punks. They’re all over, but I have noticed more in Ann Arbor than other cities I’ve lived in. I could tolerate them being jerks if they just didn’t smell so bad.

  29. Posted August 20, 2010 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Mark Maynard wrote “And I realize that I sound like an angry old man when I say this, but I remember punks. I lived in Atlanta when the Sex Pistols first came over to the states. I’ve even seen the punk episode of Quincy… ”

    Mark, can you name a comparable subculture that has remained affixed to your old timey late 1970s worldview? Let’s see that unwavering line of integrity the beatniks have upheld. “Still wearing black turtlenecks, I see! You remind me so much of the beatniks of yore.”

    Hey Edward. You wrote: “For people who try so hard to not fit in, and be like everyone else, it’s weird that they all look so much alike.” Yeah, but no. The look, however you feel about it, is a signifier: “This person may share your ideals.” When the rest of style & culture is warping into a gross, homogeneous stew where everything means nothing, that look means something to a particular group & can’t be co-opted by squares. Name one square you know that dresses in the crusty style. You can’t, can you?!

    I gotta’ say, I totally agree with Billy LaLonde with his “I’m really sad for all you old farts … good luck keeping these damn, weird looking kids off your lawn” bit. Beyond the dog abuse, you can hate this dirty group of people that’s in town for a single week because, really, they make you uncomfortable & you don’t know how to define them. Or you could do something really useful and burn down a Buffalo Wild Wings or Scorekeepers, both of which contain more morons, assholes, and creeps than punk week. And they’re open every day. Welcome to my nightmare.

  30. Posted August 20, 2010 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Regarding the point about the crust look, when I wrote “The look … is a signifier: ‘This person may share your ideals.'” — that has to do with traveling. Many of these people don’t know each other but are traveling together for indefinite stretches. When you arrive in a city for the first time, you find the other crust punks. Just look for the facial tatts!

  31. Posted August 20, 2010 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    obviously punk is getting a bum rap for this whole thing which clearly was caused by impressionable youth being constantly subjected to mind control rock and roll lyrics by KID ROCK who is posing himself as some sort of rock jesus and promoting MICHIGAN as a free-for-all welcoming irresponsible behavior. Compare:

    And we were trying different things
    We were smoking funny things
    Making love out by the lake to our favorite song
    Sipping whiskey out the bottle, not thinking ’bout tomorrow

    to annarbor.com’s description of events
    Ann Arbor police Sgt. David Strauss said officers responded to a report at 5:43 p.m. Sunday that people were smoking marijuana, “lounging naked,” and “having sex” at the Lake Shore Drive park along the Huron River.

    And meanwhile members of the community are openly advocated limitless police brutality since the “punks” smell bad, etc.


    The cops seem to be handling the situation properly with an internal investigation into this specific incident and certainly have a very strong track record in peacefully managing such situations, but the media is handling this story in a very irresponsible manner.

  32. Posted August 20, 2010 at 10:35 pm | Permalink

    I feel the same way, Mark. But getting into a punk definition argument is beyond pointless. It’s like trying to explain why a certain piece of weak art isn’t very good — it may be totally obvious to everyone that it’s uninspired and poorly executed, but some jackass will always pop up with the “who are you to define what’s art” crap, like they’re defending their kid’s drawing on the fridge or something. Stick with your gut on this.

  33. Betty Rubble
    Posted August 21, 2010 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    I thought “punks” were the young men who stood on the street corner and waited to suck old guys’ dicks for a few bucks or for a dose of heroin?
    Now there are classic punks and every day punks? All sounds pretty silly. Conforming to non-conformity, it sounds like.
    Mark, I think what is happening here is not so much that you are growing old, but that you are becoming a Republican. What with the post about personal responsibility and all and now this “the good ol’ punks” post, you are going through an identity crisis. After being part of one group all your life and seeing that group morph into suburban hipsterishness, you think there is nothing left for you but to join the opposite group. Maybe congratulations is appropriate, I don’t know.
    You’re stuck in the dichotomy, I think.
    Ypsituckians seem to be really, really concerned with how they define themselves. It is really taxing for your friends.
    Oh well, we are here for support. Let us know how you turn out.
    Up with hos! Down with fake punks!

  34. jean
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Greil Marcus, Lipstick Traces– read it for the long view. In fact it would make a fantastic community read selection for Ypsi— I’d like to say for Ann Arbor too, but that’s asking a lot.

  35. Alice
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Be warned, some people die because they don’t believe in the power of punk.


    (Watch if for the Green Day sendup. Priceless)

  36. Anonymous
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    in my experience of traveling and squatting, travelers will always fuck shit up because they’re usually always intoxicated and can skip town when things get too boring or too fucked up for them. however, not every kid that train hops, squats, travels and spanges is an incoherent asshole liability for the immediate environment they’re in or around.

    when i traveled i still maintained my civility and washed up anytime i got to a damn shower. and somehow along the line it’s become cool to act like a fucking idiot and cause problems for everyone just because you know how to hop a train and you have a crew change – and i attribute that to leftover crack’s success in making it seem cool on record. i also have to agree on the dog issue because the majority of traveler’s do only have them as an accessory to their bags and it’s sad to see.

  37. Kim
    Posted September 3, 2010 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    MetaFilter has something on this very subject today.


    The story links to a blog featuring short personal stories from the Tompkins Square crew in NYC complete with pictures. Here’s the contribution by a woman named Ketchup:

    I’m a product of the American foster care system. My mom’s a Czechoslovakian whore and my dad was a sand nigger. His name was Ahmad something or other. I grew up in the foster care system till I was three. So I woke up one day and I was fucking fifteen years old, ran away from the fucking group home. Decided it was in my best interests to become a crack head on the streets. And spent the last two years losing my mind in Oklahoma City.

    I started traveling after I got clean off of meth and was discovered by some hippies on the street.They asked me what I was doing on the street. I said, “I was trying to score another bag of meth.” They said, “hey, you want to go somewhere with us?” I said, “where are you going?” And they said, “does it really matter?” And I said, “no I guess no it doesn’t really matter.” At that point I was eighteen years old and I went on my first trip to Knoxville. Stayed with all these crazy bio diesel hippies. They make bio diesel out of corn. That’s when I figured out you could travel. That homelessness didn’t mean you had to stay in one place and rot away or be a drug addict. That you were actually allowed to move around and do something interesting and explore the world. You know you didn’t have to be stationary and miserable. So I took up to hang out with hippies and fucking drunks and train riders and made my way around America. Met a few interesting people. A few not so interesting people. Got in a couple of fights. Got my ass kicked a couple of times. Break my glasses about every six months due to one of those events. It’s really hard actually being blind on the road. I’m legally blind.

    I also appreciate not getting hit on every twenty seconds of the day by crazy old men who think they can get into my pants because I’m dirty looking. My plans are to one day not be miserable and to quit doing drugs and not killing so many brain cells.


  38. salty
    Posted November 7, 2010 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    listen here punk is a state of mind NOT a state of being so all you cry baby fucks out there can fuck off and when youre ready too be PUNK stand up cause being punk isnt facism, look at me my spikes are shinier than yours, its all about standing up for your constitutional rights and what your forefathers died for…remember?

  39. Buttons
    Posted December 8, 2010 at 7:08 pm | Permalink

    In Portland OR it happened RIGHT after Leftover Crack came to town. I just about sh*t my britches when I saw them come out on stage all decked out in earth-tones and dread locks! It was, seriously, a few weeks later when all the leathers on the street were replaced with hemp sweaters and djembes… Makes me SICK!

  40. Slaze
    Posted June 26, 2012 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    they are called crust punks or traveling kids. probably closer to escapist anarchists than “punks” and even further from hippies, in my opinion. They tend to listen to punk or folk punk and as far as I know are umbrellaed under the punk subculture.


  41. crusty wolf
    Posted November 20, 2014 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    You’re confusing a crust punk between a street punk. They both have been around for the same time but obviously if you’re not from the scene you might be confused like a person who calls a punk a rocker or a crusty a hippie.

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  1. By Manhood attack on August 21, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    […] girls, I was expecting it to be something gross, maybe in retaliation for yesterday’s post on the nastiness of dog-punching nomadic crusties. I don’t know what I thought would be inside. It was a small box. Maybe, I thought, it could […]

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