Creationism as intellectual child abuse

kenham2

Guess what? Our old friend Ken Ham, the charlatan behind the much maligned Creationism Museum, is now publishing books for kids, spreading his nonsense about how dinosaurs and men once coexisted. The photo above was taken by my friend Mike Ambs in a Kentucky Kroger.

If you can’t read it, this page has a Ham’s response to a kid who asks if men once used dinosaurs for transportation, like on the Flintstones. Here’s part of his response:

…It seems to me we should at least allow the possibility that some could have been tamed to help with transportation, maybe even farming, hauling heavy loads (the strong ones!), and other things. After all, some dragon legends from China tell us that dragons (dinosaurs?) were used to pull the emperor’s chariots.

It’s unbelievable to me that we as a society sit back and allow this shit to go on without so much as a modest letter writing campaign to Kroger. I guess, though, we have bigger things to worry about, like Muslim community centers being built in the vicinity of the former World Trade Center. I know I’ve said it before, but we’re a nation of idiots, and we deserve the same fate as the dinosaurs.

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63 Comments

  1. Robert
    Posted August 21, 2010 at 5:58 am | Permalink

    Not to worry, Mark. It’s all part of His plan.

  2. Taco Tom
    Posted August 21, 2010 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    Humans are rarely logical. We often hold contradictory opinions within our skulls. This is just an obvious example.

  3. Posted August 21, 2010 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    What do you care? Do you believe everything your parents told you? It’s a free country — some people want to believe FDR solved the Great Depression, others want to believe that pro wrestling is real. The important thing is that we all live by the golden rule: try really hard to not to be a dick.

  4. Posted August 21, 2010 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    first person to point out the extra “to” is a dick.

  5. DP not BP
    Posted August 21, 2010 at 10:45 pm | Permalink

    If I believe Jews are evil alien crustaceans implanted here as the root cause of the suffering for all humankind I’d be a dick not to try to get rid of them.

    If I believe there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq…

    If I believe the negro is an animal and doesn’t deserve human rights…

    If I believe gays are destroying society…

    If I believe the guy upstairs is beating his child…

    Is the big dick someone who does something to intervene or the one who just sits by and says, “eh, free country”?

    One man’s dick is another man’s “George Washington.”

    (My dick is “Paul Revere.” )

  6. Barney Rubble
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 12:04 am | Permalink

    Oh, that Paul Revere was a real shit heel.
    My dick is Gauer Champion. Sometimes I make my girlfriend call him that.

  7. Peter Larson
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 5:14 am | Permalink

    It’s ok. My parents tried to make me believe that a fat man in a red suit flew around the world and gave white kids presents.

    The trouble is that there are no negative consequences to not believing in Santa Claus, whereas the consequences for disputing creationists can be socially immense for people who live within these communities.

  8. Robert
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 6:10 am | Permalink

    There’s another idea for one of your movies, Steve Swan. DP’s dick can ride around yelling, “The British are cumming! The British are cumming!”

  9. Robert
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 6:12 am | Permalink

    …and the action can start with a Boston Tea and A Party.

  10. Edward
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    On the Flintstones, I liked the sea turtle bidet the best.

    http://www.livevideo.com/video/6DF14DD0BD3E41478467940A9374EF61/robot-chicken-the-flintstones.aspx

  11. Posted August 22, 2010 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Have fun believing those are apt analogies. Free country. I guess the consequences are some kid is going to get mauled trying to ride a dinosaur.

  12. Posted August 22, 2010 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    The funny thing is that the verse in context is less about dinosaurs and more about people being evil to each other on blogs.

  13. Billy LaLonde
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

    Black Jake, I once saw someone wearing a t-shirt that said, “Pro Wrestling is real. It’s real life that’s fake.”…I find that statement to grow in truth everyday that I’m still breathing.

  14. Brackinald Achery
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    the consequences for disputing creationists can be socially immense for people who live within these communities.

    The consequences for disputing progressivism can be socially immense for people who live within this community — and progressivism has far more immediate negative impacts on society as a whole than does creationism.

    The solution to others having different beliefs than you isn’t to call indoctrinating your children with your personal ideals and beliefs “child abuse.” The solution is to be skeptical, believe what you believe, and have some balls if someone’s got a problem with it.

    Nobody’s talking about throwing evolutionists in an oven over whether or not people rode dinosaurs, lol!

  15. kjc
    Posted August 22, 2010 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    “The consequences for disputing progressivism can be socially immense for people who live within this community — and progressivism has far more immediate negative impacts on society as a whole than does creationism.”

    I feel you, BA, on some of what you said, but this is bullshit. Progressivism can’t even get a voice in this country. Obama knows this better than anyone.

  16. Barney Rubble
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    I think of environmentalism as a kind of cult. That is how these things progress, first they are clubs, then churches, then cults. They become churches when they have a real live excommunication of a popular member. They become cults when they actually kill somebody. Watch those whale wars shows on Nat Geo. It is really interesting the way the world goes ’round. If you learn how to jump off for a few seconds and watch it spin. Fascinating.
    KJC, what is all that noise on the radio with Goldie whats-her-name? Isn’t that the voice of progressivism?
    I have a friend who was riding with a coworker to a destination about an hour away. His coworker drove on the way out, and listened to some progressive “news” or whatever for the whole trip. On the way back, my friend drove and listened to Rush Limbaugh.
    I said great, on the way back, you just traded your coworker’s propaganda for your propaganda, and you wasted a whole lot of good silence and scenery along the way.
    Larson you are more pragmatical than even Pascal. The consequences of anything if you don’t know the outcome are just what you imagine them to be. So choose your propaganda, and go for it.

  17. kjc
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    Barney Rubble, no idea who Goldie is. But guessing our ideas of “progressive” are different. It’s certainly not the opposite of Rush Limbaugh.

  18. Oliva
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    We were in Ethiopia (where “Christian” adoption is on the rise, with some creepy implications–erase all memory/contact/knowledge of birth country, for example–some children adopted via questionable, unholy arrangements) at the museum that houses Lucy’s skeleton, and an American pastor there looked in the room where the skeleton is displayed and said, “We don’t need to see this–none of this is true!” and tore out of the room. Fundamentalist Christianism is on the rise there and who knows where else? There’s an arrogance about it, a potent holier than thou-ness–when surely there’s so much to learn from others, so much to be humble about.

  19. Brackinald Achery
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    That’s not inherent to the doctrine, though, just like atheism doesn’t mean you want to throw people in gulags.

  20. Edward
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Pete, I’d like to agree with you that this is just like when people tell their kids about Santa Claus, but it’s not. This stuff trickles down. It permeates our culture. It’s ultimately responsible for things like the recent block on stem cell research. This isn’t a silly stage of childhood that people grow out of. These people never stop believing this stuff. And, incredibly, they sometimes win elections. There is a systematic dumbing down of American culture taking place. Laugh if you will, but there are people who believe that velociraptors once delivered the mail. This is frightening.

  21. Brackinald Achery
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    That is how these things progress, first they are clubs, then churches, then cults. They become churches when they have a real live excommunication of a popular member. They become cults when they actually kill somebody.

    I’m afraid I don’t follow you.

  22. jere
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    The only thing that will save this world is if we can finally get beyond religion.

  23. EOS
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    How dare we teach children to worship their Creator and love their neighbor. Far better that we should teach them survival of the fittest? Even better, let’s spread some nonsense about a huge energy explosion that created matter out of nothing, and then efficiently organized this matter to self assemble and produce life forms, without the aid of any intelligent designer, which then continued to evolve into more varieties of highly complex lifeforms. What is logical about a scientific theory that violates the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and that mandates a belief that living organisms spontaneously arise from inorganic matter?

  24. Oliva
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Has anyone here read Marcelo Gleiser’s “A Tear at the Edge of Creation: A Radical New Vision for Life in an Imperfect Universe”? I heard a captivating interview with him at Groks Science Podcast, show title “Natural Philosophy” from 28 April 2010.

    Here’s a link to Powell’s bookstore with a book description and several reviews: http://www.powells.com/biblio/74-9781439108321-0. Very exciting stuff.

  25. Posted August 23, 2010 at 8:43 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the recommendation, Oliva. I’ll check it out.

    And, I hate to burst your bubble, EOS, but it’s not either/or. One can both believe in evolution and a creator. It just means realizing, like an adult, that the Bible reflects the time in which it was written, like every document in human history.

  26. EOS
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    One can believe in natural selection and a Creator, but not evolution and a Creator. The theory of evolution was postulated as a purely naturalistic mechanism for the origin of species. It specifically excludes the possibility of a Creator God.

  27. Brackinald Achery
    Posted August 23, 2010 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    The no-turn-on-red ticket I got was not meant to be taken literally, it just reflected the time in which it was written.

  28. Edward
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    So, if I’m understanding you correctly, EOS, I can’t believe in the big bang and a creator? Did you make that rule yourself, or did you read it somewhere?

  29. God
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    EOS: Religion and it’s associated fairy tales (Creationism) are the bane of mankind. Religion has turned into big Business. (See Catholicism Inc.) Religion has been contorted into something perverse – by the human mind. Religion is the source of more suffering than anything else in the history of My creation. Every cult/religion believes they have the inside track to that spiritual country club in the sky, from the storefront chuch to the Mormons. Wake up: I gave you a brain – use it. Remember – this is god talking. Don’t fret over the lower case “g” – I am omnipotent – my ego can handle it…

  30. EOS
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Edward,

    I believe in the “Big Bang”. But I believe that God was the force behind the Big Bang. What I don’t believe is that God stepped back and did nothing after the Big Bang. I believe in a personal God who is active throughout all time, therefore, I can’t believe in the theory of evolution, that states everything happened naturally, without design, or guidance, or planning. I believe God is who He says He is and He will do what He said He would do.

  31. EOS
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of an unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion of a printing shop.

  32. Edward
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Why can’t it be enough for you that God set the whole, beautiful thing in motion? Why’s it so important for you to think that God looks just like you, and, not only that, but has your whole life planned out for you?

    I’m imaging you as having a giant head, filled with pudding, EOS. That’s how I can bring myself to conversate with you.

    I thought others might find that little tip useful.

  33. God
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    EOS: are you ignoring me? I wouldn’t ignore Me if you know what I mean…

  34. God
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    EOS: your name is now “puddin’ head”. Perhaps, it would make you feel more special/divine if we capitalized that for you. Puddin’ Head.

    I hath spoken…

  35. EOS
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Well Ed,

    God could have done it any way He wanted to. I choose to believe that He did it the way He said he did. Lacking any conclusive scientific evidence to prove otherwise, I will trust God.

  36. God
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    Thank you EOS.

    Betcha didn’t know I read MM’s blog did ya?

    I am all knowing/seeing.

  37. Kim
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    If I’m not mistaken, EOS has, in earlier threads admitted that there are things written in the Bible that he does not believe, like the prohibition on shellfish and the right to sell one’s daughters into slavery. So, he feels as though the Bible is infallible, except in instances where he thinks it’s not. This whole thing is laughable.

  38. EOS
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Kim,
    I believe that the Old Testament describes times when shellfish were prohibited and slavery was allowed. That’s quite a bit different than what you just wrote. I wouldn’t laugh about such a serious matter as a person’s eternal destiny.

  39. EOS
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Before someone else points it out, the New Testament includes times when shellfish were prohibited and slavery was allowed also.

  40. God
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Puddin’ Head: Old/New Testament – it’s all rubbish written by man. It’s just as goofy as any other spiritual tome written by man; the Koran, the bhagavad gita, the Tao.

    Read some Joseph Campbell – he knew what he was talking about. These stories just serve as guideposts – but you earthlings get so caught up in the Minutiae. Chocolate bunnies to celebrate the crucifiction of my boy…?!?! Who thought up that non-sense?

    I’ve got my eyes on you Puddin’ Head….

  41. Brackinald Achery
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Fresh pearls for the swine!

  42. Billy LaLonde
    Posted August 24, 2010 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    The Innagada Davida!?! Baby…don’t you know that God loves you…
    And God, will you save us all some headaches and high blood pressures, and smite ol’ Puddin’ Head already? Thank you.

  43. Peter Larson
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 1:24 am | Permalink

    I was going to see what was going on with this thread, but then I looked and noticed that the whole thing had devolved into an EOS self importance fest.

    Then, I said, why bother.

  44. Posted August 25, 2010 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    “The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of an unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion of a printing shop.”

    Given infinite time, anything that is possible is inevitable. So while the probability of life occurring at any given instant is (I agree) minuscule, the probability of life occurring eventually, given enough time, approaches 1.

  45. Kim
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    So, EOS, the Old Testament isn’t to be followed, as it was a product of its times, and not relevant to our age? I think, finally, we agree on something.

  46. Brackinald Achery
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    Jesus fulfilled the old testament law with his death and resurrection so we could live a new life of God’s forgiveness and love (via his Spirit), rather than a self-righteous but unloving life by following a set of rules. That’s the good news. Didn’t you ever go to Sunday school?

  47. EOS
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    cmadler,

    I agree. So the question is, do you consider a long term, universal decrease in entropy as a result of an explosion to be a possibility without the influence of an outside, non-natural force unlike any force known to science today?

  48. EOS
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    My bad. I should have written I agree with your first statement. Otherwise, what I just wrote is very unclear.

  49. Posted August 25, 2010 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    I’m confused, I thought we were discussing evolution.

    As for the Big Bang, I think that what came before it and up to it is unknown and unknowable, and if you’d like to say it was God saying “Let there be light!” or the Flying Spaghetti Monster reaching out His Noodly Appendage or the Invisible Pink Unicorn gashing a hole in space and time with her horn, I really don’t care; I think all of those are equally plausible, and as far as I know (though my knowledge of the field is limited) there is no scientific evidence as to what preceded and/or caused the Big Bang, so none of those contradict any evidence.

    But confining our discussion to the “known universe” — let’s use current estimates of the beginning of the “matter domination” period, starting about 70,000 years after the Big Bang — I see no need to postulate the involvement of any non-natural force. Given a beginning of some sort, and ignoring the beginning aside from accepting that it happenned somehow, galaxies, stars, planets, and life in all its forms need no additional outside force to bring them about.

  50. Peter Larson
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    cmadler,

    No, this thread is about reinforcing EOS’s Christian faith.

  51. EOS
    Posted August 25, 2010 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    No Peter,
    cmadler and I are very similar in our approach to this discussion. We agree that some force outside of current scientific knowledge was responsible for the Big Bang. There was some “first cause”. Matter just doesn’t pop into existence. If we call it the Flying Spaghetti Monster, at least we acknowledge that there was some force in existence at the beginning of the universe that can’t be explained scientifically today. But I disagree with the premise that life in all its forms could have originated once matter was present. There is no known scientific evidence that supports life arising from non-living matter. I think our mythical Spaghetti Monster had to be involved in that process as well.

    Evolution that is being taught in science classes today includes the topics of chemical evolution and origin of life theories. This is unknown and unknowable through scientific inquiry and should therefore be discussed in philosophy or religious classes and not be presented as “scientific fact”.

  52. Brainless
    Posted August 26, 2010 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    “There is no known scientific evidence that supports life arising from non-living matter. ”

    Holy shit (to paraphrase your god), you’re stupid. You know, science has moved past what you were taught in 3rd grade. Read a book, moron.

  53. EOS
    Posted August 26, 2010 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Brainless,
    I think your parents named you appropriately.

  54. Edward
    Posted August 26, 2010 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Don’t listen to him, I think Braless is a great name.

  55. Peter Larson
    Posted August 26, 2010 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    I think what we really need to do is get rid of the FAA.

  56. Ted
    Posted August 26, 2010 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    Can we just go back to riding pterodactyls?

  57. Jene
    Posted August 27, 2010 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    I’m just glad that there’s a way to abuse my child without getting physical. When he does something bad, instead of hitting him, which is what I want to do, I tell him about our ancestor Fred Flintstone, and all he had to put with, how he had rely on a lazy octopus to wash his dishes, etc.

  58. Anita Hill-Perez
    Posted September 1, 2010 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    People did not come from monkeys. Some monkeys wear top hats, but that proves NOTHING!

  59. V Seciz Wukf
    Posted September 5, 2010 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    This not 100% related to the subject of the post, but I’d love to see Ashley Judd’s pants fall off.

  60. Mr. Vertigo
    Posted September 6, 2010 at 2:25 am | Permalink

    I have a very specific fantasy that I like to occupy myself with in which Ashley Olsen becomes suddenly allergic to her clothes. She barely gets the last piece of clothing off before collapsing to the ground gasping for air. This thought is all that occupies my mind 8 hours a day.

  61. waylon
    Posted January 3, 2011 at 11:12 pm | Permalink

    To those who do not believe in evolution, I have three words…… Lady Gaga’s vagina.

  62. 734
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 3:54 pm | Permalink

    It’s hard to believe, but Pat Robertson came out on Tuesday saying that the world is older than 6,000 years old. “If you fight science you’re going to lose your children,” he said, shocking his audience.

    One wonders if this will negatively impact ticket sales at the Creationism Museum, which Robertson used to promote on his show.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/28/pat-robertson-creationism-earth-is-not-6000-years-old_n_2207275.html

  63. Mike Tompkins
    Posted June 4, 2014 at 3:38 am | Permalink

    I’d rather be smacked than taught lies.

2 Trackbacks

  1. […] I’d never willingly give Ham a dollar of my money so long as he’s actively engaged in intellectual child abuse (children are free at the museum in 2014, by they way, as part of Ham’s “Rescuing our […]

  2. […] of Ham, do you remember that time a few years ago, when I shared a passage with you from a book that he authored which was being given away at a Kentucky Kroger? The passage in question was written by Ham in response to an imaginary kid who asked him if, like […]

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