For those fortunate few who have yet to make the acquaintance of Scottsdale, Arizona restaurant owners Amy “You people are all shit” and Samy “Get out” Bouzaglo, here’s the episode of chef Gordon Ramsay’s reality series Kitchen Nightmares that brought the irate, delusional and paranoid couple to the forefront of America’s collective consciousness.

For what it’s worth, I don’t generally watch so-called “reality” television, as I don’t believe that those suffering from serious personality disorders should be manipulated and exploited for our entertainment. For some reason, though, I can’t seem to pull away from this. I keep telling myself that, fro the good of my soul, I need to move on to something better, but yet I continue to sit here, following links, mouth agape, reading up on the stealing of tips, the selling of packaged food items as homemade, and the history of fraud. From Amy’s epic social media melt-down that followed the show’s airing earlier this week, to the inevitable claims on behalf of the Bouzaglos that it had been the work of hackers, the story just doesn’t seem to want to quit… offering one lesson after another on how not to run a business in today’s highly-connected world. Today, a former Amy’s Baking Company waitress even took to Reddit, answering questions. And the “Crazy Amy” memes, as you might expect, have begun to propagate across the internet like mad. I want desperately to sleep, but I can’t make myself log out. Maybe it’s that I dream of opening a restaurant of my own one day, and fear that I might meet a similar fate, but I find all of this incredibly fascinating, and don’t want to miss a single detail… I just hope the internet lynch mob, which has been gathering on Reddit the past few days, knows when to let up. I’d hate to see this end in tragedy, and, as of right now, I’d say that’s a distinct possibility.

I think it’s also worth noting that I’m not taking any pleasure in the destruction of this couple, even though, on the surface, it would appear as though they’re deserving of everything that’s happening. For reasons unknown to me, I just enjoy watching how businesses operate. Other folks like watching football. I like watching entrepreneurs navigate difficult situations. It’s weird, I know. I just find it fascinating. And this a goldmine.

As I see it, it could be anything from a big potluck to a more structured event, with regional chefs and local food entrepreneurs preparing special dishes inspired by the magical, multi-venue fertility rite known as Totally Awesome Fest. The only difficult part, as I see it, would be how to keep it free, like the rest of the almost ten year old, city-wide event. Maybe we could raise money online for the ingredients that can’t be grown in Ypsi, or donated. Or, maybe those with money could pay to attend, thereby subsidizing those that can’t. There are a ton of possibilities. At the very least, I’m thinking that local restaurants could be persuaded to offer discounts for folks during the festival. This would be especially cool if Patrick is able to make the event a full week long next year, like he says he wants to… Or, here’s another idea. Maybe Totally Awesome Feast is a ticketed event prior to Totally Awesome Fest, with all the proceeds going toward covering the travel expenses of bands and performers coming to Ypsi from far away… So many possibilities.

And, I’m not advocating that we actually do this, but here’s the first menu item that came to mind when the Totally Awesome Feast idea popped into my head.

Also, if Patrick is serious about growing this thing next year, and trying to fill an entire week with events, he’s going to need a lot more help. If you have ideas, food-related or not, as to how we do that, please leave a comment, or reach out to Patrick directly.

MARK: Let’s start by talking ice cream… How’d you get into that particular line of work? And what makes your ice cream better than what’s currently available in Ypsilanti?

ROB: I’ve been making ice cream for a few years now. It was just kind of a hobby until enough people said, “If you sold this, I would buy truckloads.” My ice creams are all natural, use products I buy at the Co-op and other local places (when possible, and it’s almost always possible), and are made 6 quarts at a time, by hand. I’ve also perfected vegan ice cream, so our non-dairy friends can play along, too… Our mutual friends, Patti and Andy Claydon, have been dubbed my Ice Cream Bike Official Test Vegans… I’ll sell waffle bowls, and sauces, and other handmade accoutrements, too.

MARK: Is your plan eventually to have a storefront somewhere, or are you only interested in bike-service?

ROB: There’s no storefront presence planned for our immediate future. I figure that’s a way to keep the initial operating costs lower, and to make sure that there’s a market for the product before committing to a huge amount of overhead. I can already picture the store in my mind, though, and, of course, Patti, who designed the Go logo, already has idea for the interior design! The plan for now, though, is to sell pints and novelties (sorbet pops, etc.) from the bike, around town, at various events, and then also offer doorstep delivery through the website. We’ll also do birthday parties and other events, and we’ll hopefully be able to sell wholesale at places like the Co-Op, etc.

MARK: Why Ypsi?

ROB: Because I live here, and love it, and I really want to create a product that’s from Ypsilanti. I go out to places like Sidetrack, or Haab’s, or the Corner Brewery, or whatever, and I marvel at the way they’ve established a place that brings the community together, gives you a sense of place, and contributes to the personality of the community, you know? I want to create a place that you can bring friends to Ypsi to visit. I would love it if someone was making plans with friends and said, “Hey, why don’t you come to Ypsi, and we’ll go out to dinner, and then stop by the Go! Ice Cream bike.” The spirit of our town has had a huge impact on me personally, and I want to give something awesome back.

MARK: When did you move to Ypsi, and what were the circumstances around your coming here?

ROB: Immense pressure from Patti and Andy, actually. My wife and I were living in Whitmore Lake at the time, in a house I bought for dirt cheap in my early-20s, and had renovated in hopes of selling it high. We were ready to move somewhere that was a bit less sleepy, and Patti kept insisting we look in Ypsi. Honestly, we were a little afraid of it. We had only ever seen the shadier side of Ypsi, never come to town for any events, or gotten a feel for the community. We knew we didn’t want to live in Ann Arbor because it felt like no one knew their neighbors there, and it was expensive. And, as we looked at the other options, they were all kind of bland. None of them seemed to have any real sense of community, and no real diversity among the people living there. They just weren’t interesting, I guess, is what I am trying to say. So, Patti and Andy kept bringing us to Ypsi for dinner, and inviting us out to Haab’s for happy hour, and sending us real estate listings, and taking us to ElvisFest… and we just fell in love with how quirky and unique Ypsi is. The neighborhoods are quaint, and the houses are affordable, and we fell in love with it pretty hard… and we’ve never fallen out of love with it.

I didn’t know what it felt like to really love the town I live in before I moved to Ypsi. I always defined my sense of place by the house that I lived in, and not the community. Now, that equation is totally flipped.

To me, Ypsi really embraces the unique, and that has had a huge impact on me as a person. It’s really changed how I view myself and what I value. When a city helps you like that, it’s hard to know who to thank. I think that’s a big part of why I wanted to start a business in Ypsi, that says “Ypsi” on the label, that puts Ypsi first, as a way of giving something back to a place that has had, and continues to have, a really profound impact on me.

MARK: Do you see Go as just being a seasonal business?

ROB: I would love to operate year-round. I mean, for me, ice cream has no season. Also, winter always puts me in the mood for baked alaska, and other forms of flaming ice cream! Not that I’d recommend folks play with matches, or anything…

MARK: What flavors should we expect?

ROB: Three Bean Vanilla (featuring high-quality vanilla beans from Madagascar, Uganda and Tahiit), Peanut Butter Cookie Dough, Fresh Mint Cacao Nib (a play on mint chocolate chip, using fresh mint and cacao nibs, which, if you’ve never had them in an ice cream, become like the crunchiest, raddest chocolate chip you’ve ever had), Ypsi Pride Peppercorn (my homage to Ypsi.. it might sound a little weird at first, but once you go there, you can’t wait to go back), Chocolate Sorbet (vegan, dairy free, and approved by the Official Test Vegans), and Vegan Salted Caramel.

We’ll also have waffle bowls in all kinds of flavors, like oatmeal, graham cracker, buckwheat… And we’ll have Chocolate Awesome Shells, Peanut Butter Awesome Shells, and Choco Tacos (a waffle cone taco shell, dark chocolate ice cream, chocolate magic shell, cacao nibs, topped with cinnamon chocolate chipotle sea salt).

I got flavors for days. These are the first flavors that will be available through the website.

I should probably also add, I don’t want to be one of those places that offers up wacky sounding flavors just for the shock value. I want to offer people bold twists on flavors they know and love and then also give them some adventurous new flavors that really surprise and delight them. I once had a honey and roasted garlic ice cream that was just weird. It really offered nothing other than weirdness. It left me feeling flat and wondering why I gave that place five bucks. I never want any of my customers to feel that way.

MARK: How does one become an Official Test Vegan?

ROB: Really, I just have to know you and you have to be vegan. Pretty much everyone I know has gorged on my ice creams for the past year as I work on my technique. Also, there’s a secret handshake.

MARK: If you were given the task of making Vegan-flavored ice cream, how would you go about it? I can picture it in my mind being kind of an anemic pink color, like the “flesh” colored crayons of yesteryear, but I can’t imagine what “vegan” would taste like.

ROB: First I’d sacrifice three virgins. Not sure why. Really though, these are the questions that keep me awake at night. When Lara wants to play a cruel prank on me, she’ll say things like, “what flavor ice cream is President’s Day?” I know it is a joke, I laugh at it as such, and then I can’t not think about that, and only that, from then on. That’s just the brand of disturbed that I am. I figure it out eventually, too. But it takes it’s toll. I don’t yet know what ingredients would go in vegan-flavored ice cream, but I do know a meat grinder would be involved, just for irony. You can expect me to call you at 2:00 AM a few days from now. I’ll be the one shouting, “Eureka! The ingredients are…”

MARK: I imagine, in addition to showing up at local events over the summer, you’ll also try to establish firm hours at a set location or two, so that you can establish a regular clientele. Have you given any thought to where you might do that? Do you have a specific part of town in mind? A specific corner?

ROB: And yes, we are looking at what days we can schedule to show up at the Saturday Farmer’s Market in Depot Town. As for regular hours, or a specific part of town that we will frequent, I would love to do that, but I want to get a feel for how the brick and mortar businesses will react to someone else selling dessert on their doorstep. I’d love to cruise through various neighborhoods like an ice cream truck, too, if possible. We plan to have a schedule of our appearances on the website, and we’ll encourage the community to follow us on Twitter so we can update them on where we’ll be, and when. It’s sort of a model that food trucks around the country use. I anticipate the website and the home delivery really driving the bulk of the sales, with the on-bike vending serving almost more as advertising and a fun way to interact with the community.

MARK: I seem to recall seeing something not too long ago about a small-batch ice cream company outfitting a small truck, and selling amid food carts. Is that something that you considered before settling on the bike? If you did consider going the food cart route, why’d you settle on the bike?

ROB: The bike is an old Worksman Tricycle that used to carry foremen up and down the line in a GM plant in Wixom. That same company, Worksman, made the majority of the ice cream and hot dog carts in NYC in the early 1900′s. They are still in business, so I took the tool cabinet off the back of the bike, repainted it, added some chrome, a Worksman ice cream cabinet and an umbrella on the back of it. It’s almost finished, actually working on the last few bits of the renovation this week. So, I’ll use dry ice in the cabinet to keep it cold. It should last about 4 hours. We’ll see how it goes!

An ice cream truck is a far more practical choice from a business perspective. You can cover a larger area, it’s bigger, more visible, all kinds of stuff. But a) I love biking and, much like Kevin Costner felt compelled to build a baseball field, I can’t get the idea of selling ice cream off the back of a bike out of my head. And b) I firmly believe in moderation and balance. I’ve been a heavier dude most of my life, and for a number of years, until I discovered biking, and then learned to love running and working out. And ice cream was a big part of why I was heavier. I love ice cream, I make really great ice cream, but I would never want to sell ice cream in the way most companies sell ice cream. There are a lot of companies out there that wouldn’t be upset if you hooked yourself up to a feed tube of their sub-par, financially viable, moderately carcinogenic product and watched Dancing With the Stars into eternity. That’s why I named the company Go Ice Cream. I think it is important to really go for the things you love, the things you are passionate about. I’d rather espouse that, when someone wants dessert, they eat the best, tastiest, most satisfying dessert they can, and make room for it. I think we’re largely taught to be afraid of dessert. I really was. There were periods of time where I was really afraid to have any ice cream in fridge. I was so afraid that I would just tear into a pint in one mindless, frenzied blur. And, for big parts of my life, I did. Once I learned to embrace my love of ice cream, and to offset it, and fold it in to the rest of my life, ice cream no longer had that sway over me. I have roughly 12 quarts of ice cream in my freezer right now, and, while I know it is mind-bendingly awesome (especially the Irish Cream Ice Cream made with Bushmills and Dark Chocolate), I have no desire to dive-in face first and pull a Leaving Las Vegas style bender.

The bike is a part of all of that for me. Yeah, that’s a bit heavy for an ice cream company, and it’s a little weird to launch a product and say, “now, now… moderation!” But it’s important to me to put a great product out there, in a great city, with the best motivation. Does that make any sense at all?

MARK: Absolutely… Speaking of exercise, can you carry everything you need on the bike? By the time you load up all the shells, cones, ice pops, toppings and ice cream, I’ve got to think that it’ll be pretty heavy. Have you done a test run to see if it’s manageable?

ROB: It is SO heavy. My workouts have been really intense as I prepare for it. We live up near the water tower and I just keep picturing the ride up that hill on Cross. I plan to have bodybuilder thighs. Also, because it’s a trike, you don’t really get much leverage on the pedals like you can with two-wheeled bike by swinging it side to side. For places that are farther away, or when it will take too long to get there by trike, we have a trailer for the car and will just park in the vicinity. So, yeah, if you see a dude on a blue tricycle struggling up the hill on Cross this Summer, be a pal and pull your car in close so I can skitch off your bumper.

MARK: Have you taken any heat for desecrating our beloved historic water tower in your online graphics?

ROB: Ha!!! That’s funny. No, I actually haven’t. But I love the idea of online heat. Sounds so exciting. Would you like to dish up some heat, good sir? I think you’ll find that, despite the reputation, us ice cream men are pretty tough. Especially those of us with bodybuilder thighs.

MARK: I’m assuming, since you’re using premium ingredients, that your costs – even though you don’t have much overhead to speak of – are going to be somewhat higher than what folks in Ypsi might be accustomed to. Do you think the people of Ypsilanti are ready for pay for a quality alternative to Dairy Queen? Have you done any kind of market research to verify that, or do you just have a gut feeling, based on what you’re seeing, that now might be the right time for something like this?

ROB: This is all just gut feeling for me. This is looking around and seeing that more people are interested in a backstory with their food, a sense of connection, or of just knowing that Monsanto isn’t poisoning them for profit. It likely isn’t for everyone, but I think it could be. There is a lot about what is going on in food right now that I love, all the stuff in the previous sentence, basically, but there is a lot of preciousness that I think is unnecessary. I think people want food that is awesome, that’s fun, that’s convenient and that is produced with some ethics and humanity behind it. It’s really all just a big dice roll for me, but in the 18 months or so that it has taken me to develop this idea I have met with nothing but positivity and encouragement. Seriously. It has been overwhelming and so reassuring. It’s my hope that it continues in the future, too!

At this point it is all speculation and projection. I think I have come up with a production / distribution method where this is manageable. I think I have a product people will go crazy for. I think I have the savvy and the standards to ensure the best possible customer experience. I have made drinks with all those ingredients before, but I have never quite mixed this particular cocktail before.

As I mentioned, this started out as a hobby for me. I’m just fascinated by the science behind ice cream. It’s a really delicate balance of fats, proteins, sugars and other stuff. So, I just kept making it and tweaking little variables here and there, trying to figure out what made it tick. It got to the point where we would have 2 dozen pints of ice cream in the freezer, and it was encroaching on the space where we store the frozen veggies. I had to get rid of it. My wife and I work in a really fun office at U-M that has about 50 or so people in it, so I started taking it in there. I would send out an e-mail at 9:00 AM that there was ice cream in the freezer, and it would be gone well before noon. I thought they were being nice at first, and that people just love ice cream, but it kept happening. Day in and day out. Pretty soon I would have co-workers stopping me in the hallway to tell me how it reminded them of their childhoods and revealing far more about themselves than they ever had before. I would walk by the kitchen and find them with a spoon in their mouth, eyes closed, moaning. Seriously. Then folks started asking me if I could make bigger quantities and bring it to their parties and it just grew from there. Soon I started getting requests from people to sell it to them. I can’t do that legally, so I have had to turn down a lot of offers and ask people to just hold on until I can get it up and running.

MARK: Are there rules with regard to where you can set up? I know in Ann Arbor there are somewhat restrictive laws concerning where folks can set up food carts, but I imagine that bikes are a somewhat different story… At least I haven’t seen the guy who runs the Roos Roast bike getting hassled by the cops… But I’m not aware of any Ypsi legislation regarding such activities. Are there laws that pertain to what you hope to do? Are you restricted, for instance, from selling in public parks?

ROB: I am right in the middle of the teeming, tumultuous, arduous (wow, two words ending uous!) world of licensing right now. I am hoping to open relatively soon, but it all rides on other people doing things on time, something that doesn’t always happen. People in the community have been really helpful and supportive… I’ll actually be working out of Bona Sera’s kitchen, which is so awesome for me on so many levels because they were in my shoes prior to getting their brick and mortar thing going.

So far I have not had anyone tell me I can’t vend in certain areas. Basically, I will be licensed as a wholesale food processor through the state and then I will be licensed as a food vendor through whatever agency has jurisdiction over the area I want to vend in. I haven’t spoken to anyone in Ann Arbor yet, but the folks I have talked to at Washtenaw Health Department have been really encouraging and say that the process is pretty straightforward. I don’t want to piss off any restaurant owners by parking outside of their windows and drawing their customers away, so we’ll see. I am not exactly sure how one plays nice in that arena but I definitely want to collaborate rather than compete.

I have heard something about not selling parks, but it was just hearsay. I can let you know what I find out when I go in for the licensing at the end of May. If there is an event going on at the park, say Elvisfest, the vending is obviously overseen by the event organizers, but that’s about the extent of my knowledge. Who knows about just a random Saturday in the park? Man, I would love to bike through Riverside selling ice cream on a beautiful Saturday afternoon.

To my knowledge, the vending permit lets me vend wherever I like. I’ve heard tell that, and this make sense to me, it might piss some restaurants off if I do it in the wrong place. I don’t really know yet. I am really excited about selling at the Farmers Market, though, and that process seems really easy. You just pick the dates you want, apply, and pay the money. I am sure they review people to make sure you fit certain guidelines, but I haven’t gone through that process. The street vending part of the business is not really what I envision being the moneymaker for the company. Street vending for me is really more of a way to be more involved with the community, get to meet the customers and watch them take their first taste of our product and, really, advertise. I imagine the online business will be more lucrative and it is also less time-intensive. It’s really all speculation and projection at this point. I have focused on getting the least restrictive licensing (limited wholesale food processor) I can so that I can be flexible and meet the demands of the customers and take the business in the direction that presents itself.

MARK: Will you have employees, or will it just be you?

ROB: At first this will just be a one man operation. My wife, Lara, is helping out a ton with the back end stuff and social media and writing the text and stuff, but I really want to have first-hand experience with all parts of this as it starts up, even if that means I have to keep it smaller at first. I want to make sure that all of the ice cream is up to my personal standard, I want to make sure the customers ge the best experience, I want to make sure the communications through the website are top-notch. I just really want to make sure that I know what the customers want and I want to know firsthand that they are getting it. At some point I hope that I can grow it and trust others with that, but I want to know the business inside and out first.

MARK: Have you decided yet on how you’ll dress? Should we expect to see you in one of those white hats, like the old-timey ice cream men, or will be wearing a logo emblazoned bike helmet?

ROB: That was a big question. For a while I wanted to look like an old-timey soda jerk, but then that felt too precious. I ordered some custom bike jerseys that I’ll sell online and some mountain biking shorts with a padded butt. I do think I will have a custom logo on my helmet, although I have a helmet right now that is kinda reminscent of Evil Knievel’s helmet and I hate to put that on the shelf. There is definitely a little bit of showmanship with the costume. Oh, and I’ll have those fun little biking caps with the semi-circle brims that you can flip up, too. Actually, you’re supposed to wear a hat or hairnet when packagin commercial food products and I wear my biking hat for that. Just ‘cause I keeps it real 24/7.

MARK: Have you settled on pricing?

ROB: Yeah, I’m definitely in a different ballpark than DQ, but it’s also a much different product. For a pint of okay ice cream you pay $3 – $6, give or take. My pints will be $9. The flavors in my ice cream are so dialed up, though, that I think people will pay $9, probably eat smaller portions, and share it with folks. I can easily see a couple who is entertaining another couple getting a pint of my ice cream for dessert and splitting it between 4 people. It’s rich enough that you don’t need as much of it to feel like you really scratched that itch. I can imagine there are probably a lot of business folks who would yell at me to not entice people to consume less of my product, but I believe in giving people the highest quality, most flavorful experience I can, and I care about that far more than I care about moving units. Perhaps my fatal flaw is that I listened to Nevermind one too many times in high school.

That’s also just for pints. The price point for the novelties and things that I will sell off the bike for people to munch on while they walk around, that will be a lot lower. More in the $2-$5 range. If I am selling in a neighborhood, I want some kid to be able to buy a cool version of something they already know they want with whatever money they got from mowing the lawn or whatever, I don’t want to try and sell them on a $9 pint of Cardamom Honeycomb or something.

MARK: You mention trying to source things locally, and I was wondering if you’re working with a Michigan dairy.

ROB: Yes sir! This has been a big process for me. The problem is, when you are packing for mass distribution, the State dairy laws require you to have a pre-pasteurized mix of dairy, sugar, and thickening agent, bought in bulk, from an approved dairy processing plant. Every place I went had mixes they would sell, but all of them had this junk in it. Finally, I went to Zingerman’s Creamery and Josh, who is a wonderful, passionate dude, and makes all of their gelato, agreed to do a custom mix for me, using only ingredients I specified. The milk comes from Calder and Guernsey, just down the road, and I get the added bonus of having Josh, who is incredibly knowledgeable about ice cream and the ice cream business, in my corner as I get started. It was a tough search to find products that didn’t compromise my quality standards, but in the end I ended up getting more than I was even looking for.

MARK: So, when can we buy ice cream?

ROB: Late May or early June. The licensing process just takes longer and has more moving parts than I anticipated. I’m going to do a soft-launch in May, inviting friends to place orders through the website and then delivering to them as a way to work the kinks out of the distribution, and make sure we are ready to open our doors. And I want to have a big free ice cream social in Ypsi in early June to kick everything off. I’ll rent some space somewhere and have music and games and stuff and invite families out, and give everyone free ice cream. Doesn’t that sound like fun?

[You can follow the adventures of Rob and his ice cream bike on Facebook and Twitter.]

MARK: Perhaps, before we get started talking specifically about your work, you could share a little background about the Southern Foodways Alliance, how it got started, its mission, etc.

AMY: The Southern Foodways Alliance was founded in 1999. A member-supported non-profit, based at the University of Mississippi, we stage symposia on food culture, produce documentary films, collect oral histories, and publish compendiums of great writing.

Our mission is to document, study, and celebrate the diverse food cultures of the changing American South. We set a common table where black and white, rich and poor—all who gather—may consider our history and our future in a spirit of reconciliation.

Since 1999, we’ve added more than 700 oral history interviews to our online archive and produced 35 documentary films. We’ve only just begun.

(Go here for more on our history, and visit our SFA Founders’ Oral History Project, to read interviews with most all of our 50 founding members.)

MARK: When I first became acquainted with your work, I have to tell you that I was more than just a little bit jealous. As someone with an appreciation for the South, having grown up moving between Kentucky, Georgia and South Carolina, and degree in American Studies, who attempted to make a go of it at an historic archeologist, before giving it all up for the security of an office job, your career, at least as I understand it, is the stuff that dreams are made of. Please tell me one really bad thing about your job before we get into the good stuff… I think that might make this interview easier for me.

AMY: You know, I didn’t even know a job like this existed before I found myself in it. It is a really wonderful gig, I have to say, but there is one giant albatross around my oral historian neck: processing. For every week spent in the field collecting interviews, four more are spent in front of a computer screen. We’re now able to have multiple people collecting fieldwork for us, so I manage that, too. It’s all worth it, though, of course. So is the uptick in my waistline.

MARK: OK, now the good stuff. Tell us what it is that you do for the Southern Foodways Alliance?

AMY: I am the SFA’s lead oral historian. I travel the region collecting stories from people who make, grow, serve, and consume Southern food and drink. Until just a few years ago, I was the only oral historian but, as the organization has grown, we’ve been able to bring more people into the fold and invite colleagues to collaborate with us on projects throughout the region. Here lately, I’ve been attending more conferences to spread the good word about our documentary archive. I also conduct a week-long oral history workshop every May at our headquarters at the University of Mississippi.

MARK: In the time that you’ve been collecting oral histories have you noticed any larger trends? Are you, for instance, seeing any evidence of the old ways dying off? Or, are people, perhaps, coming to appreciate regional food traditions more, with the advent of “food tv” and the constant advance of corporate chains across the American landscape? In your opinion, is there a concerted effort to keep these things alive? And, if not, how do we get there?

AMY: After a decade doing this work, the only things I see dying are people. Southern food is on the upswing. It’s more popular that ever, it seems. It’s the generation of people who are connected to almost a century of the South’s culinary history that we’re losing. People like Alisa Lay of Greenwood, MS; Bill Tinker of Louisville, KY; Edna Stewart of Chicago, IL; and Joe Pope of Rosedale, MS, to whom we dedicated our Mississippi Delta Hot Tamale Trail. They are precisely why we are committed to oral history.

MARK: The work you’re doing is incredibly important. It’s vital that we capture the history of regular Americans, of all walks of life, and food, perhaps more than anything else, really gets to the heart of who we are. It’s our history, our heart, our culture, all rolled up into one. I’m curious if you have any sense just how much of this history was lost before your group, and others, began documenting it. It’s easy to see on a satellite image, for instance, just how much of the Amazon rainforest disappears each year, but how do we measure the loss in this area which you study?

AMY: In my oral history workshop I always share the African proverb, when an old [person] dies, a library burns to the ground. There’s no way to measure what’s been lost, only document what remains. Again, this is precisely why we’re doing this work.

That said, there are plenty of young people doing new and exciting things, and we’re committed to documenting them, too. Take, for example, Hieu Pham in Atlanta, GA. Pham is a born-and-raised Atlantan, but his parents bring a mix of Cambodian, Chinese, and Vietnamese heritage to the table. In 2008 at the age of 25, Pham opened Crawfish Shack Seafood on Atlanta’s Buford Highway, where he serves fresh po-boys with a Vietnamese-influenced remoulade, spring rolls made with Louisiana shrimp, and a traditional Vietnamese drink of pressed sugarcane spiked with sweet Louisiana satsumas in lieu of sweet tea.

Hieu Pham, Crawfish Shack Seafood, Atlanta, GA:

MARK: I’m curious to know if there’s a great white whale in your field of study. Is there some culinary myth that you’ve heard about for years, but haven’t been able to find real evidence of?

AMY: No great white whale, only a driving urge to document and share. That, and culinary myths aren’t really our bag. We’re more interested in celebrating the uncelebrated, exploring culture through food, and building an archive that documents the changing foodways of our region. The latter is only just now beginning to show its value. Take, for example, our Southern Boudin Trail, where we feature more than 40 oral histories about boudin (pork liver, rice, onions and various other herbs and spices squeezed into a sausage casing and served hot). They are all interesting stand-alone interviews. Collectively, though, they tell a bigger, broader, deeper story about the evolution of a particular food in the context of a certain place and time. Which is to say, the boudin that old-timer John Saucier of Saucier’s Sausage Kitchen makes (using not just the liver but all of the organ meats form a hog) speaks to boudin’s origins and the fading boucherie tradition of South Central Louisiana. It’s is a far cry from the alligator and chicken boudin being served in some establishments today, which are perfectly acceptable and actually quite popular versions of boudin, but they have very little to do with what John Saucier makes.

John Saucier, Saucier’s Sausage Kitchen, Mamou, LA:

MARK: I’m not sure to what extent, if at all, you’ve researched New Orleans, but I’m curious what the post-Katrina diaspera meant for the food culture that was there.

AMY: We’ve conducted quite a lot of fieldwork in and around New Orleans. In fact, our Southern Boudin and Southern Gumbo Trails were specifically created to spur culinary tourism in the state after Hurricane Katrina.

Just last year we produced the Down the Bayou oral history project, and many of the subjects who shared their stories mention of Katrina. Nick Collins of Collins Oyster Company in Golden Meadow, Louisiana, is a good example. Katrina remains a part of the cultural fabric of southern Louisiana — and southern Mississippi, I might add.

Visit our Oral History Project index and scroll down to the Louisiana heading to see all the work we’ve collected in the sate.

MARK: How is your work funded?

AMY: Our documentary work is funded in large part by private and corporate donations.

MARK: Can you tell us about one of your favorite interviews?

AMY: Too many to count! But my interview with John Saucier of Saucier’s Sausage Kitchen, an interview from the Southern Boudin Trail that I mentioned earlier, is definitely a favorite. I happened upon one of his handmade signs while in the field in Cajun Country, found my way to his front door, and talked him into visiting with me. He was a lovely interview, and, as I mentioned above, his boudin story ended up being very important to the project. I often know who I will be interviewing before I head into the field, but it’s interviews like this ones—the surprises—that are especially memorable. What’s more is that after the interview, Mr. Saucier and his wife invited me to join them for a lunch of venison stew, homemade bread, and peppers from their garden.

Another memorable interview was with Leann Hines, a chicken farmer in Greenwood, Mississippi. She is an inspiration. And, in fact, I just had an email exchange with her the other day. In a postscript she added, “I love all my new friends that I never would have known if not for the chickens and one little mosquito.” Listen to her audio slideshow online, and you’ll understand just what she means. She is AMAZING.

Leann Hines, Levee Run Farm, Greenwood, MS:

MARK: How did you come to this career?

AMY: I fell into it really. I have a fine arts background (BFA from Maryland Institute College of Art) but in 2001, at the age of 30, I decided I wanted to go back to school. Not for art but for a cultural studies degree. More than that, though, I wanted to get out and explore. Long story short, I found the Southern Studies program that’s part of the Center for the Study of Southern Culture at the University of Mississippi and knew immediately that it would be a good fit. It was the documentary studies part of the program that hooked me. I had a graduate assistantship with the SFA, which, at that time, was only three years old. They were just turning their attention to oral history, so my classmate Joe York (who now makes all of our documentary films) and I collaborated on the SFA’s very first oral history project, documenting barbecue joints in Memphis, TN. I continued to do projects for the SFA after graduating in 2003 and was hired as the SFA’s full-time oral historian in 2005. I still make paintings and have an annual show at Koelsch Gallery in Houston, Texas.

MARK: What was your favorite meal?

AMY: Milkshakes with A. L. and Gloria Quick at the Burger King in Apalachicola, Florida. I made three fieldwork-gathering trips to Franklin County, Florida, for our Florida’s Forgotten Coast project, and I made this date with the Quicks each time.

Second favorite meal might have to be the one with John Saucier mentioned above.

MARK: If there was one food you’d like for people everywhere experience, what would it be?

AMY: Anything shared by the person who grew/harvested/cooked/served it. Food is always better when there’s a story to go with it.

MARK: If I were to be looking for the best fried chicken in the world, where would I be most likely to find it?

AMY: I hope to never find the best. I’d rather keep tasting, comparing, craving. Greatness should be a never-ending quest. That said, I have to confess that I’ve eaten at Gus’s in Memphis twice in the past ten days.

MARK: Is there anything that you’ve seen prepared that you’ve refused to eat?

AMY: Nope. I’ll eat whatever doesn’t eat me first. This, of course, is not a job requirement, but it does come in handy. For me, it’s never usually about the kind of food but the quantity of a certain thing being consumed over a short period of time that can be hard. Spending a week in the field to document barbecue, for example, has its hazards.

MARK: If things aren’t going well, and you’re just not connecting with your interview subject, what do you do? Do you have a foolproof question that you break out in case of emergency?

AMY: In the decade I’ve been doing this work, there have really only been a few people who have not being giving interview subject. Generally, people like being paid attention to, celebrated for what their doing, and sharing their story. If the interview happens to not be going well, you just have to gauge your subject and try to find a way around the problem. Every situation will have different solutions because people are different. There is no foolproof question, although asking someone what they had for breakfast — and the beginning of an interview or when the need for a change of tone shows itself — is a great was to get people out of their own head and think about something specific instead of how nervous or uncomfortable they are. It’s a wonderful icebreaker.

MARK: Do oral historians hang out together somewhere? If so, what do they talk about?

AMY: They do, actually. The Oral History Association has an annual meeting, and there are other groups and events that bring people together to talk about the field of oral history. And when they get together, they talk shop. I’ve also found that oral historians are quite chatty, which likely has something to do that we’re always the ones listening.

[note: The painting above, of the man in the overalls, is a portrait of Robert Earl "Doc" Mathis, done by Amy, who, as she mentioned above, can be found painting, when she's not traveling through the South, eating, and collecting oral histories.]

[note: The videos above only contain small snippets of the interviews which Amy has collected. If you follow the associated links, you will find her transcribed interviews in their entirety.]

And, if all that talk of boudin and fried chicken got your mouth watering, you’ll be happy to know that The Southern Foodways Alliance has produced an awesome cookbook.

Oh, and this is the short documentary film on country ham that first brought the Southern Foodways Alliance to my attention. It was produced by Amy’s associate, Joe York, and features Madisonville, Tennessee’s world-renowned bacon and country ham producer Allan Benton. And it totally brings back delightful childhood memories of eating ham and biscuits at my grandmother’s table in Liberty, Kentucky.

Cured from Southern Foodways on Vimeo.

Thanks to a post on Metafilter, I’ve spent the last hour learning about contaminated honey from China. Apparently, several years ago, we erected trade barriers to keep Chinese honey out of the United States market, as it showed traces of heavy metals, and the antibiotic chloramphenicol (which has been linked to aplastic anaemia), but that hasn’t kept companies from smuggling it into the U.S. through other countries, like Australia. In fact, according to a 2011 investigation by Food Safety News, more than one third of the honey consumed in America, despite the laws we have in place, has its origins in China, where the natural environment is fast collapsing under the burden of the unfettered free market.

Speaking of China, did you happen to see today that a Chinese entrepreneur is offering a reward of 200,000 yuan to the head of their environmental protection bureau if he’ll swim for 20 minutes in one of the country’s toxic rivers? I’m encouraged that there seems to be a burgeoning environmental movement in China, but one wonders if it can possibly happen quickly enough to change the course that the rapidly growing country is on.

And, here, as long as we’re talking about China and the problem of fake food, is a fascinating little piece of video on the production of counterfeit eggs made from chemicals… Yes, it would seem that someone in China has figured out that it’s cheaper to make fake eggs in a filthy bathtub than feed real chickens and collect natural eggs from under their feathery bottoms.

This, my friends, is what true freedom tastes like…

And it can be ours, right here in America. All we have to do is follow Rand Paul’s advice, kill the EPA, roll back those regulations that we still have on the books, and defund our consumer protection agencies. If we can just do those three things, soon we’ll be living in a paradise like the people of China, enjoying the good life, with our bellies full of delicious “eggs,” just like Ayn Rand and Jesus Christ intended.

[note: Not all fake food is bad.]

MARK: This is a big step. Why do you think now is the right time?

PHILLIS: A few reasons. First, after two seasons as a food cart, we felt we were ready. Our sales grew by 33% from year 1 to year 2 and we gained a devoted following. Second, we are ready to expand our culinary limits beyond what we can do in a food cart, with its small space and limited equipment. Vegan food also seems to be hitting its stride and entering the mainstream. When Bill Clinton goes vegan you know the chances for a vegan restaurant to succeed have never been better. We want to take the “vegan” concept and revolutionize it. No boring flavors, no pre-fab fake meats. We can take virtually any dish and make it vegan, from scratch, using fresh, wholesome, plant-based ingredients. And it will satisfy even meat-lovers.

MARK: I’m curious as to how many of your customers are vegans, and how many, like me, are just meant eaters who occasionally slip up. Do you have any sense as to the way your clientele breaks down on the omnivore-vegan continuum?

PHILLIS: I don’t have hard numbers, but from talking with people I’m guessing that most are omnivores, some are vegetarians, and just a handful are vegans. I’m basing this on how often I’ve heard from customers: “I’m not vegan, I’m not even vegetarian, I just really like your food.” We also get a lot of people who eat our food and afterwards are surprised to learn it’s vegan.

MARK: As for your comment about being able to “take any dish and make it vegan,” I’m wondering if that’s difficult to do when you’re not sampling the meat dishes your attempting to replicate and comparing them head-to-head.

PHILLIS: I haven’t been a vegan my whole life — only really for the past six years or so (though I’ve been vegetarian on and off since my teenage years). So I know what meat and dairy taste like. But we aren’t trying to make things that taste like meat or cheese. We’re attempting to get that same level of satisfaction from food that people associate with its meat or dairy counterpart. Take, for instance, our barbecue tofu sliders. You still get a messy sandwich with great barbecue sauce that has something chewy and a tangy slaw inside a bun. We aren’t attempting to replicate meat per se; we’re putting a vegan spin on a dish that people know and love.

MARK: Will the lunch cart be retired now, or will you still make use if it somehow?

PHILLIS: We haven’t decided that yet. It certainly won’t be in operation on a regular basis. We may explore using it for special events.

MARK: I like the idea of the carts recirculating in the community, and allowing new food entrepreneurs to try their hand at entrepreneurship, but, I think, if I were in your shoes, I’d be tempted to keep it, and explore other opportunities, given that you’re so known for the cart. If nothing else, it would be good advertising for the restaurant… Speaking of the cart, I’m curious as to how you came by it in the first place. Did you build it? Did you buy it? Did it have a life somewhere in the U.S. before Lunch Room.

PHILLIS: We thought about operating the cart as well, but Joel and I believe in focusing our energies on one thing and doing it well. Running a food cart itself can be a 70+ hour per week gig. There’s no way we could do that and run a restaurant… The cart itself is an interesting story. We responded to an ad on Craig’s List and purchased a trailer, formerly the base of a pop-up camper, with three partially built external walls, for $550. We drove to Kokomo, Indiana, and bought it from a man named Rev. Joseph (actually, Rev. Joseph was in the hospital, so we bought it from his agent, “Danny”), who had started, but given up on, building a “Gypsy wagon” that he could take across the country, doing fortune telling in. We brought it home and, with the help of friends, finished the interior and exterior construction, plumbing, electrical, and roof, and installed all of the equipment.

MARK: How, if at all, will the menu change now that you’re expanding?

PHILLIS: The menu will grow tremendously. We have new breakfast and brunch items, entrees, salads and sides, and desserts. We have been busy developing and testing new recipes steadily since the food cart closed. We have been experimenting with “cheeses” of various flavors and consistencies made from cashews, coconut milk, tapioca, and nutritional yeast. We have four different seitan recipes that can be used in burgers, jambalaya, stir fry, and with biscuits and gravy for breakfast. Among the offerings people will see at the restaurant will be Bahn Mi, BBQ tofu, Cuban black beans, curry seitan stirfy, jambalaya, mac & cheese, nachos, Pad Thai, paella, pizza, roasted root veggie pasties, sushi, tempeh reubens, French toast, ratatouille, risotto, tacos breakfast burritos, ice cream sundaes, strawberry kiwi tarts, and gingered poached fruits. This is a select list but it gives a pretty good idea of what we’ll have.

MARK: How, if at all, have you seen Ann Arbor’s food cart culture evolve since you first opened The Lunch Room?

PHILLIS: Not much, really. There hasn’t been much activity beyond Mark’s Carts, other than vendors at Farmer’s Market and (mainly hot dog) carts around the U-M Diag. As long as commercial kitchen space remains severely limited, it’ll be hard for new food carts to get started.

MARK: How about within the tiny universe of Mark’s Carts… are things evolving and changing? Are people trying new things? I’m curious to know what you’ve learned since starting out, and how you’re adapting as a result.

PHILLIS: I can only speak for our business, since each food cart is independently owned. We constantly sought to improve our food, our menu presentation, our marketing, our hours of operation, and our customer service. We were always trying to make it a better dining experience. That said, Mark’s Carts will change this year with the addition of at least one new cart in our former space.

MARK: I realize that all of Mark’s Carts are independently owned, but I’m curious about how small changes sweep through the pod. For instance, when you started, did you think that more people would buy their food and leave… and is the fact that they’re staying changing things? Is there more of an effort to produce things that can be eaten quickly, to open up space for other customers? Are price points changing over time, as you get a sense of what people are willing to pay for items they perceive as “street” food? Are you attempting more “combination” plates, which showcase a number of different items, or has your experience showed that more people would like to sample individual items from a number of different vendors? Anything you could share about the evolutionary process would be appreciated.

PHILLIS: We found that the more accommodating we made the space at Mark’s Carts, the more people came and the longer they stayed. So we kept putting out more tables and chairs. We expanded out onto the sidewalk on Washington St., since it was closed for construction to the west of us anyways. On Friday nights we put benches out in the plaza area closer to Downtown Home & Garden. It seemed like having a crowd was a good thing — it created a buzz and a party-like atmosphere and drew more customers. This past season lot of us started using re-usable plates, cups and flatware to cut down on the cost of disposables. So that created a different atmosphere and encouraged more people to stay. In terms of price, there was a pretty large range throughout the courtyard. Customers grumbled about dishes they felt were too expensive. At The Lunch Room we prided ourselves on value — large portions for reasonable prices. We started a combo plate this year, three half-portions of any item on our menu for $8. That was tremendously popular. Same with our brunch plate: 4 items for $8. But price point is a delicate balance between what people will pay and what you need to charge in order to make a profit in this low-margin business.

MARK: Tell us about the new space in Kerrytown. I hear you’ve got some interesting architectural ideas.

PHILLIS: The space is a blank slate right now. It will undergo more demolition before we start building again. We have wonderful young architects, Lisa Sauvé and Adam Smith of the firm Synecdoche, who see it as 1,128 square feet of possibility. They are opening up the space a lot since its last incarnation, taking advantage of the natural light from two huge banks of windows on the east and west walls. We will have an open kitchen. There will be seating at the counter facing the cooking station, stool and counter seating along one wall of windows, and banquettes with two-tops along another wall, plus tables and chairs in the central area. We are planning to preserve a little of the cart’s mystique in the design and will use repurposed materials wherever possible. There will be wood slats on the ceiling for both acoustics and aesthetics, chairs with bright accent colors, and we even have our own plant artist, Andy Sell (aka Foraging Florist). Overall, our architects Lisa and Adam have an impeccable sense of taste and are designing The Lunch Room to be not just a food destination, but an architectural one.

MARK: I’m curious as to how you came to be acquainted with Lisa and Adam. Are they Lunch Room customers?

PHILLIS: Yes, the two of them were regulars at the cart. They work just two blocks from Mark’s Carts. Adam became a BBQ tofu junkie. Joel and I really clicked with them. The cart was magical that way: we came to know so many wonderful people who have become part of our lives.

MARK: I’m curious as to how you’re bankrolling the expansion. Did you raise funds from private investors? Did you work with a bank? Did you use crowdfunding again? (Two years ago, Joel and Phillis raised over $10,000 through Kickstarter to buy their food cart.) Or did you capitalize this new venture some other way?

PHILLIS: We have a bank loan to cover most of the expenses, and for the rest we are using personal funds.

MARK: Given that you were so successful with Kickstarter last time, I’m curious as to why haven’t you made use of Kickstarter, is some way, to help fund this most recent venture? Is it more work than it’s worth?

PHILLIS: Kickstarter is a lot of work but it is worth it. But it wasn’t practical for our current situation, due to the timing. We couldn’t ask all those people for money when we hadn’t secured a space and didn’t know if or when we would secure a space. But you can’t sign a lease without proof of funds. So we went the bank-loan route.

MARK: How many seats will the new place have, and when are you planning to open?

PHILLIS: There will be 36 indoor seats and 20 or more outdoors. We are planning to open by June.

MARK: Any advice for other folks thinking about getting into the food cart business?

PHILLIS: If you’re interested in starting a restaurant, a food cart is a good place to begin. Start-up costs are much lower, and you can cut your teeth as a cook and business person. But be prepared for long, hard hours, and uncertainties, like weather. And definitely learn the health department requirements before buying a cart.

MARK: What do food cart people do over the winter in Ann Arbor? Do you cater? Do you vacation together in the tropics? Do you work on your business plans, and look for restaurant spaces?

PHILLIS: I can only speak for myself and my business partner. Last year in the off-season we ran a wholesale baking business and worked on individual freelance pursuits. We also had a few reservation-only dinner events. This year, since the cart closed, we have mainly been preparing for the restaurant — looking at real estate, negotiating a lease, learning about the trade. You’d be surprised how much all that stuff takes. It’s been a full-time job.

MARK: You mention that you’ve been studying up on the restaurant business. What specifically have you done to prepare for this new venture?

PHILLIS:We have been talking to people who currently run or have run restaurants. I am reading a book called “Restaurant Success by the Numbers,” which covers everything from negotiating a lease to music and lighting in the space. We are meeting with our consultant from the Michigan Small Business and Technology Development Center and with an accountant. We are budgeting and revising our projected revenue and expense sheets, costing out food ingredients, looking at projected sales meal by meal and day by day, and planning our menus. And, my favorite part, the endless recipe development and testing.

MARK: I’ve eaten your food, but I don’t know either of you personally. Where are you from, and what brought you to Ann Arbor?

PHILLIS: We are both native Michiganders: Joel from the west side of the state and I’m from the Detroit area. We both came to Ann Arbor for school, albeit 20 years apart. You have to guess who’s older. We became friends about 7 years ago at Michigan Peaceworks, where I was the director and Joel was the graphic designer. About 4 years ago, Joel bought the house next door to me, and we have a large adjoining backyard. After various camping and canoe trips together with our respective partners and friends, and many afternoons drinking beer in the garden, plus a memorable Tarot card reading, we decided to launch a food business.

MARK: I’ve talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, but I think you’re the first to mention consulting a Tarot deck. Can you tell us more about that? Would you not have done it, if the reading had been different?

PHILLIS: Hah, that’s funny because I’m totally not a Tarot cards kind of person. It was just a whim. Joel and I were relaxing on a hot summer afternoon with our friend Celibeth, and she pulled out a deck and said she would do a reading for each of us. Having never had one before and being an adventurous type, I said sure. I was really amazed by how the cards described what was going on in my life at that time. Ditto for Joel. It also indicated to us that our futures were intertwined. And yes, I think we still would have started a food business had the reading been different. I don’t put that much stock in cards.

MARK: Why Kerrytown?

PHILLIS: It’s a happening part of town, it’s next door to the Farmer’s Market, and it’s about 1 mile from our houses. Kerrytown is walking-distance for much of the lunchtime clientele we gained at Mark’s Carts. And Kerrytown has a wonderful collection of businesses… We look forward to adding to each others’ customer base and energy. Plus, the landlords are great to work with. During our restaurant search we learned how rare that is.

MARK: How collaborative is the local food cart community? Are you sharing information with one another, helping new people get launched, etc?

PHILLIS: There is a fair amount of collaboration that goes on within the food carts. Last year, The Lunch Room helped two new carts get launched, advising them on navigating Health Department regulations, budgeting, ingredient sourcing, and the like.

MARK: Since you brought up ingredient sourcing, I’m curious to know what involvement, if any, you’ve had with the Washtenaw Food Hub folks. My sense, having talked with a number of local food entrepreneurs, is that, right now, it’s difficult to cultivate relationships with local farmers and vendors, and my hope is that Food Hub might make it easier to do so. I’m curious to know your perspective, though.

PHILLIS: Actually, they were getting started just as we were winding down for the cart season, so we haven’t intersected much. But we have business relationships with a handful of local farmers. We would place orders each week during the cart season, and pick them up at Farmer’s Market.

MARK: Where do you see food carts in Ann Arbor in another five years?

PHILLIS: I don’t know. I see the lack of commercial kitchen space as the main obstacle. If you want to do something more elaborate than hot dogs or lemonade, you need a commissary to work from. They are almost impossible to find. The city permitting system for food carts is complicated too. At Mark’s Carts we didn’t have to worry about that because we were on private property. But if you’re going to be on the street, there are rules governing selling food from parking spaces (i.e. you can’t do it). And, if you want to get a permit for sidewalk space, you need the type of cart that’s small enough to pull up on the sidewalk. Any real advancement for food carts or food trucks in Ann Arbor would have to start with commercial kitchens and an overhaul of city regulations.

MARK: Is there any political momentum to see that accomplished? Given the success that other regions have had with food carts, like Portland, I’d think that there would be more of a movement here. But, as progressive as we claim to be, I think there’s a lot of fear here about change. And I’ve also heard that local restaurants aren’t too enthusiastic about the competition… Care to comment?

PHILLIS: If there is a movement to make Ann Arbor more food-cart friendly, I haven’t heard about it. I did hear that they just passed such regulations in Traverse City which is interesting. With the national trend toward food carts and trucks, I wouldn’t be surprised if people start organizing in Ann Arbor.

MARK: Speaking of Portland, I notice that you’ve spent some time there, studying their food cart culture. What were your major take-aways having studied the carts there, and how, if at all, have you implemented the ideas at The Lunch Room?

PHILLIS: Yes, last year before the start of the food cart season Joel and I spent five days in Portland. We were primarily studying vegan food. We ate at 20 vegan food carts, restaurants, and bars. Our major takeaways were in terms of food, for instance our Saturday brunch at the cart was inspired by our experience at Portobello, a wonderful vegan restaurant. And our Southern style collard greens were inspired by a trip to the Homegrown Smoker food cart. In terms of food carts, we were surprised to learn there are over 600 in the city. It sounds like it’s easy to get licensed and health regulations are a lot more lax than they are in Washtenaw County. We also spoke to restaurant owners and found a range of attitudes toward the food carts, from those who felt the carts were drawing away their customer base to those who didn’t think it affected their business at all. But the people of Portland love their food carts and food cart culture. The carts are everywhere: grouped together in blocks, singly in vacant lots, in front of colleges. There are upscale “pods” (clusters of carts with tables and/or a canopy in the middle) and grimier, trashier areas of carts. Something for everyone.

MARK: You mention that available kitchen space is constraining the growth of our local food cart ecosystem… As I understand it, the entrepreneurs working at Mark’s Carts have access to a shared kitchen space. Outside of that, however, there’s no infrastructure… I’m curious if any attempts have been made to work collaboratively with local restaurants. Have any of them attempted to work out kitchen-sharing arrangements during off-peak hours, for instance?

PHILLIS: I know a couple of people who have had arrangements with area restaurants to use their kitchens in the wee hours of the night, but it seems rare. There is no infrastructure for that sort of thing. A food cart owner would have to seek out and follow leads and try to find something that works and, probably, have to be willing to work overnight.

MARK: You mentioned above that you could make a delicious substitute for any meat dish. I was wondering if you could give me a few tips for vegan fried chicken?

PHILLIS: I should learn not to boast, since there are probably things I couldn’t veganize. Don’t ask for liver and onions or tripe. But if you insist on vegan fried chicken, my version would start with a seitan made with flavors you associate with chicken, like garlic, onion, rosemary, thyme, oregano, bay leaves and sage, simmered in a rich vegetable broth. Then I would slice the seitan and dredge it in a pecan-cornmeal mixture with a little fresh tarragon and pan fry it until golden brown. I would serve it with a nice side of Southern-style collard greens, made delicious with sundried tomatoes, lemon juice, red wine vinegar and liquid smoke. How does that sound?

MARK: That actually sounds super awesome…. One last question. Given your association with Michigan Peaceworks, I was wondering if you might want to bring politics into the conversation, and perhaps says something about why it is, in your opinion, that vegan restaurants are important right now.

PHILLIS: I’m not into proselytizing about veganism and am not trying to convert anyone. I personally believe that a vegan diet, incorporating lots of fresh produce, is the healthiest way to eat. It is also the most environmentally friendly. But at The Lunch Room we’re not expecting customers to line up for political principles; we’re expecting them to come for the delicious food.

MARK: Let’s start with the name. Why “Two James”? As neither you, or your partner in this endeavor (Peter Bailey), is named James, I’m guessing that it might perhaps be a reference to Detroit’s distilling history… Am I on the right track?

DAVID: I like that theory Mark, but actually the name is derived from both mine and Peter’s fathers’ names. The story is, as we were sitting in the living room of Pete’s house in Chattanooga (that’s where he was working at the time), writing our business plan, we came to the “okay, so what are we going to call ourselves?” juncture. We ran the gamut of ideas – resurrected distillery names, nautical themes, two syllable words, literary heroes and heroines, figures from Greek and Roman mythology, etc. You name it, we thunk it. And we came up with some really good names. The problem, though, was that they didn’t really mean anything to us besides being really cool-sounding names. Well, the one thing we both had in common was the fact that both our fathers had just recently passed away. This had crossed my mind early on, but I didn’t know how we would incorporate that into our branding. Then I asked Pete what his dad’s name was, and he said “James.” To which I responded, “No shit.” (Obviously this was my dad’s name too.) At that point, we decided on “James and James,” and then it evolved into “Two James.” We liked the ring of it. It was two syllables, and easy to remember and pronounce. But, most importantly, it was near and dear to both our hearts. Oh Damn… Now it’s PERSONAL!

MARK: I’m curious as to what your fathers would have made of this undertaking of yours… Did they appreciate spirits? Were they at all entrepreneurial?

DAVID: Well, I’m glad you asked, Mark, because I believe their backgrounds fit into the branding better than their names. Both of our fathers were entrepreneurs. Peter’s father hails from England, where he grew up above a pub called “The Dog and Gun” if I’m not mistaken. And, as you can imagine, he was raised with a fondness for spirits, and spent countless hours fraternizing with the locals. He got his degree in mechanical engineering, and, before he passed, he started countless businesses – most of which involved machine parts. He also dabbled in inventing, and had a couple of patents to his name. My father was born in Kentucky, and lived New York before eventually moving with his family to Detroit. He graduated from Salesian high school in Detroit, and went on to get his english degree from Michigan State University. He wanted to be a writer, but unfortunately, with a growing family, he had to put his aspirations on hold and enter the workforce. After working for a few ad agencies, my father ended up starting a marketing company called Phoenix Group, based in Farmington. He did extremely well, but I don’t think he ever let go of his writing bug. That’s what he really wanted to do with his life. However, before he stopped writing, he had some successes to hang his hat on. He wrote jokes for Phyllis Diller and Rodney Dangerfield. (I’m not sure Rodney ever actually used his jokes. I would have to research it a bit further. But Phyllis definitely did.) And he wrote the bulk, if not all, of a comic strip called Thornsby. (Fred McLaren did the illustration.) I still have a bunch of the original art work. As far as drinking goes, he was a conservative drinker who really enjoyed the finer stuff. Scotch was his jam.

MARK: What can you tell me about the history of distilling in the city of Detroit? I believe I’ve heard that Two James will be the first to operate in the city… at least legally… since Prohibition. Have you had an opportunity to go through the city archives to verify this, and see just how prevalent distilling was prior to Prohibition?

DAVID: Yes, as far as we know, this is true. We dug as deep as we could, and couldn’t find a single distillery in the city that operated after Prohibition…. “legally” that is. The roots of distilling in Detroit were extremely deep before Prohibition. And, during Prohibition, Detroit was a smuggler’s paradise, given that the Detroit River is less than a mile across in some places, and 28 miles long, with innumerable hidden coves along the shoreline, and among the islands. Taken collectively, it’s estimated that the Detroit River, Lake St. Clair and the St. Clair River, carried 75% of the liquor supplied to the United States during Prohibition.

So it’s not an exaggeration to say that distilling in Detroit was huge. There were a plethora of distilleries in and around the burgeoning city. American Liquor Company, Frederick Myll Co., Robinson and Aronheim, etc.. However, none of them were as big as Hiram Walker. Hiram opened his distillery in Detroit in 1858. He started as a grocer in 1830, distilling cider vinegar, and eventually moved on to whiskey. He barreled his first batch in 1854. But, with the temperance movement starting to gain a following, and parts of Michigan becoming dry, Hiram wisely moved his operations a mile across the Detroit River onto Canadian soil, right before the choke hold of the Volstead Act. The rest, as they say, is history. The Canadian Club giant was born. But Hiram was really a Detroiter!

MARK: I’m curious to know how much this rich, often illegal, history is contributing to what you’re doing… or perhaps distracting from it. Are people coming out of the woodwork to bend your ear with stories of the Purple Gang? Are they giving you recipe suggestions based on things that may have been handed down through the generations?

DAVID: Not much, Mark. Honestly no one really knows much about it. We’ve met a few older people from the city who tell tales of their grandparents smuggling whiskey by driving across the frozen river, and stuff like that, but that’s about it. There’s a great dive bar called the Stone House where the Purple Gang used to hang out, and, if you go in there, occasionally you get the local “expert” telling you stories, but we haven’t really run into many people like this. For the most part, people are just really, really excited for a distillery to opening up in the city. As for historic inspiration, I’ve done some extensive research, and have a few ideas of resurrecting some old labels, but I don’t want to give away my secrets just yet.

MARK: To oversimplify a bit, based upon my admittedly rudimentary research into you and your partner, it looks like one of you is a scientist, and the other is a cocktail snob. That sounds to me like an ideal combination for an undertaking like this… but I’m curious as to how you go from the thought – “We’d like to make our own spirits” – to actually doing it. How did you educate yourselves? And, in answering that, if you could share your pre-distillery backgrounds, I’d appreciate it.

DAVID: Peter got his masters in Sustainable Systems and Design from University of Michigan, and worked for Steelcase, and numerous city governments, before settling on a large carpet manufacturer just outside of Chattanooga, in Georgia. I went to Michigan State for Art History and Studio Art, and wanted to be a professional “fine” artist. So, naturally, I ended up working at my brother’s restaurant, Cafe Felix, in Ann Arbor…. because, obviously, this is what the pursuit of art gets you. (Insert smiley face here.) I was always a wine geek and ended up getting my wine specialist license, but, after a visit to the Milk & Honey bar in NYC, in early 2000, I fell in love with the cocktail. Unfortunately, when I’d first started tending bar in the mid to late 90′s, the newly defined “martinis” were trending. “Appletini’s,” “Chocolate Martini’s,” and the like, were all the rage – syrupy, vapid concoctions that weren’t even close to the actual definition of a martini. And, then, one day, I made a chance visit to Milk & Honey – a little, hidden bar down a dark, dank alley, in the middle of the Lower East Side. Sasha Petraske was making drinks that literally destroyed anything and everything I thought I knew about making drinks. I could go on about this for hours, so I’d better stop here, but let’s just say that I got into it heavy – sculpted ice, homemade tonic, smoker, carbonated cocktail heavy. Because all of these drinks were rooted in the past, the way drinks used to be made, with homemade ingredients, etc., I just naturally progressed to wanting to make my own spirits, because I was making everything else in-house at that point. I remembered the growth in micro-brewing in the 80′s, and I started to see a few small distilleries opening up, and I just thought it would be such an amazing job. I called Peter in Chattanooga one day, and said, “Hey, what do you think about opening a sustainable craft distillery?” and he said “Sounds fun, what do we have to do?” And the rest is history. We took a class in Chicago to see if this was a viable option, or if we were getting in over our heads, and realized that we had a huge upper hand on almost everyone in the class. And that was it. I flew to Chattanooga the next week, and we started work on a business plan.

MARK: Can you tell me more about the class in Chicago? Is there a school for would-be distillers?

DAVID: Well, I guess, sort of. You will find this a common theme for start up distilleries. It’s a way for them to raise some cash for almost no cost. The distillery will offer a class, usually with the help of a still manufacturer, providing the attendants with sales sheets from the still company and other limited information. Actually, I shouldn’t say that… the information was extensive, but it was more like a chemistry class. They would break down the molecular structure of yeasts, sugars, etc. It was a science lecture, and a boring one at that. The only thing keeping us from falling asleep on our desks was the speaker’s hilariously thick German accent. The technical data was there, but that’s a very, VERY, small part of actually opening a distillery. There were some great things about it, like the emphasis on sensory evaluation, but there was no hands-on component at all, and that’s what we really wanted. We wanted to be slinging grain, carrying boxes, adding yeast, making cuts. The main thing we got out of it was the fact that we walked away with the utmost confidence in our ideas, and our ability to create a better brand and distill better spirits than most of the people in the class. We just saw some horrible grain applications and branding nightmares, and that really got us excited. (Laughing.)

MARK: I know very little about the distillery business, but, if I’m not mistaken, the laws in Michigan, at least a half dozen years ago or so, weren’t terribly conducive to running a successful distillery. Or, at least that’s what I’d heard from Todd Leopold, who, in 2008, moved his distillery, Leopold Brothers, from Ann Arbor to Colorado. His decision was in part due to his landlord jacking up his rent, but, according to Todd, it also had to do with the laws at at the time. “The laws governing spirits sales makes it so we couldn’t sell half of our product line at a new bar (our rum and whiskeys),” he said. “To top it off, self-distribution is legal in Colorado, and that makes all the difference.” So, I’m curious as to what the environment is now. Have things changed for the better in Michigan?

DAVID: I can’t speak to the exact laws in Michigan back then, but I do know that they were pretty prohibitive. First off ,the cost of having a DSP (Distilled Spirits Producer) license in Michigan at that time was much more expensive than it is now. On top of that (and this hasn’t changed), Michigan is a controlled state, which means that the state sells ALL of the alcohol in Michigan. They even set and regulate pricing. This is pretty tough on small distillers because the profit margins are so small. I won’t get into the nitty gritty, but, basically, if we sell a bottle of spirit at 30 bucks on the shelf in a liquor store, after the state and feds are done with us, we’re lucky to make 6-7 bucks. The one benefit that we DO have in Michigan, though, is that we’re able to make and sell our spirits on site, in the form of cocktails, or bottles to go. This is huge, as our profit margins are significantly higher when we don’t go through a middleman. The Leopold’s could have also done that, though, so I’m not sure what Todd was referring too. Maybe there was a law against barrel-aged spirits at that time, but I’m just speculating. There are other laws up for debate that could positively affect the small distiller in Michigan, such as being able to sell at farmers markets, etc. If this happens, we would be ecstatic. Oh, and I think Todd just really wanted to go home back to Colorado. I know those guys both grew up there, and I think that was always in their sites. I could make a distiller’s joke here about that old adage of “home is where the heart is” but only distilling geeks would get it, and it’s actually not really funny.

MARK: Go ahead and give it a shot.

DAVID: Alright, alright, don’t say I didn’t warn you. Here’s the background. The result of any distillation, whether it’s corn or wheat or potato or apple, whatever it is, is divided into 3 separate parts. Heads, Hearts and Tails. Ethanol alcohol (what you strive for) evaporates at 78.3 degrees C at sea level, and water at 100 degrees C, but, when you mix those two together, it will evaporate in between 78.3 and 100 depending on the ratio. The more volatile components with lower boiling points will evaporate first (Acetaldehyde, Acetone, Methanol). These are called the “Heads,” and you DO NOT want these in your end product. Acetaldehyde is believed to be a major contributor to the severity of hangovers, Acetone is basically nail polish remover, and 10ml of Methanol will make you go blind and shut down your liver (30ml will kill you). The next part of the distillate is the “Hearts” (the Ethanol), and this is the good stuff. And the “Tails” are at the end of the run, and have the lowest boiling points. The main compounds here are Propanol, Butanol, and Fusel Alcohols. These basically have a range of (usually) negative flavors – bitter almond, petrol, vinegar, etc. Sharp, and sour flavors. These can also later be re-distilled into Hearts… but that’s a different story. So, back to my bad joke: “Home is where the HEART is”… get it? …Zanganuts, that was awful.

MARK: Maybe it’s a better joke after you’ve been sitting around a still for a few days, inhaling nail polish remover. I’m glad that I asked, though. I had no idea that’s how the precess worked… Let’s talk about capitalization. In order to pull this off, you needed a serious influx of cash, and, toward that end, you launched something called the Corktown 500. Essentially, you were looking for 500 people to give you $2,000 a piece, in order to raise $1 million. That $2,000, as I understand it, would get someone a five-year membership in the Corktown 500, valued at $1,750, with the remaining $250 going toward a “refundable barrel-reservation deposit.” And, as members of the Corktown 500, these individuals would get to spend a weekend with you, at what you’re calling “Camp James,” as well as an opportunity to make their own whiskey, discounts on products, events, etc. And, after five years, these folks would either get back $250 and their own barrel, or they’d get $500 in merchandise. Is that pretty much it? Or is there more?

DAVID: That’s pretty much it. The only thing I would clarify is that “Camp James” will be run by us as well as David Pickerell, our consultant and ex-master distiller of Maker’s Mark (he’s the real draw, I mean we’re great and all, but…). Also this isn’t to raise $ 1million, as our costs of hosting this will be at least half of that $2,000.00, and, on top of that, we either give back $500 in merchandise, or $250 in the form of a check. So now we’re basically looking at $500 to $750 in investment capital from each Corktown 500 member, which doesn’t include our labor, future discounts, etc. So, basically, Camp James isn’t seed money at all. It’s something fun that we can do to provide people with a very unique, educational experience, and make them think they’re part of something very special. To compare it, you could take a course at, say, Dry Fly distilling in Washington State, and pay close to $4000 for a couple days with basically no perks, or feeling of being part of the organization.

MARK: So, have people been receptive to the idea of the Corktown 500?

DAVID: People have been very receptive, however we expect it to take off even more once we actually open our doors and people can see how beautiful our space is, how great our product is, and really get a feel for what Two James is all about.

MARK: Do you have other funding outside of the Corktown 500? For instance, have you sought bank financing or the backing of accredited investors? Do you have a fallback plan, should you not be able to raise enough through the Corktown 500 campaign? Have you considered pre-selling product?

DAVID: As I said previously, the Corktown 500 offers nothing to us as far as financing goes. We already have our seed money, which includes some personal investments on both mine and Peter’s part, as well as a line of credit from a financial institution. There is a small investment opportunity left, however, but we expect that to close any day now, as we’ve had amazing support and interest from outside investors.

MARK: Let’s talk about your spirits. What do you intend to offer in your portfolio? And what, in your opinion, makes each distinctive?

DAVID: We will be making a vodka, gin and (what we are really hitting hard) an aged spirit line including a rye whiskey, a bourbon, and a single malt Scotch style whiskey. We also may end up playing with some spirits in-house that don’t make it onto shelves in stores, but you may find them in our distillery, such as Calvados and Absinthe. I have French heritage so I’m a sucker for all those delicious French liquors and liqueurs. As far as what makes them distinctive, you’re just gonna have to come down and taste them for yourself, and tell me what you think!

MARK: How long have you been working on your recipes, and are you confident that you’ve got them where you want them? Or, is there still tweaking to be done before you ramp up production?

DAVID: We are pretty much there with our recipes, but there is always room for tweaking. I think we’ll be tweaking until the day we stop making spirits…. hmm that sounded weird.

MARK: Is the plan still to open in spring of 2013?

DAVID: The St. Patricks Day Parade was our goal about six months ago, but time is drying up, and unfortunately we won’t be able to make that deadline. Sigh…. That would have been such a great time to showcase our spirits to the revelry in the streets, but we’ll just have to wait. We’re still projecting a Spring opening, though. Hopefully it’ll happen by the end of April, but, realistically, if it happened in the beginning of June, I wouldn’t be too surprised. We want it to open of course, but we really want it to be right, and, if that means more time, so be it… BUT DEFINITELY BY JUNE!

MARK: Why Corktown?

DAVID: Corktown was just perfect for us. There are like-minded individuals in the neighborhood that really want to revitalize the community and help beautify the area. It’s on the upswing and close to downtown, but still has the flexibility of being financially feasible as well as providing us with adequate space. (Distilleries need specific dimensions. They need tall ceilings, no adjacent domiciles, etc.) Besides it being the oldest neighborhood in Detroit, it’s on a major thoroughfare (Michigan Avenue), with fewer zoning restrictions, plenty of parking, etc. Plus, it’s called Corktown. It just sounds badass… Who wouldn’t want whiskey from a place called “Corktown”?!

MARK: You mentioned that you’re working with whiskey-maker David Pickerell, who used to be the Distillery Manager and VP of Operations at Maker’s Mark. How did that relationship come about?

DAVID: It was funny how it happened actually. Pete was talking to one of his friends from Chattanooga who was on an interview in Portland, Oregon, and she happened to be talking to him from this bar. As they were talking, she said, “Hey, there’s this guy next to me that says he’s a distillery consultant, and that you should call him.” Having heard a lot about people offering their consulting services who weren’t really worth a damn, so we just kind of dismissed it and said, “Okay, sure, take his card.” Later, though, we looked him up and started doing research on him, his expertise, and accomplishments, and realized that we needed to talk to him. We soon realized how great an asset he was, hung out a few times, and developed a great friendship. He’s definitely mentoring us and assisting us in our whiskey-making. He invited us to Mount Vernon to work at George Washington’s distillery, and it was priceless. Using the old techniques, with no motorized equipment, wood fired stills, etc. It was hot, humid, smelly, dirty, smokey and perfect… Dave’s worth his weight in gold, and, if you’ve ever seen him, that’s saying something.

MARK: You’ve mentioned in your materials that you’re attempting to source as much as possible locally. Are you having much luck with it? Are all the grains you need available in Michigan? And is the supplier network easy to access as new entrepreneurs?

DAVID: The short answer is no. Because grain is traded as a commodity it’s really hard to source it from a specific farm. We’ve been searching everywhere, and just haven’t come up with a small provider that has the means of harvesting, cleaning, and storing grains for us, especially because we have no track record when it comes to production demands. We can make sure that some of our products are local (like botanicals for gin), but, as far as the grain goes, the closest we can narrow it down to is making sure that it comes from Michigan (but it will probably come from all over the state). As we progress as a business, though, I’m sure it will be easier to narrow our search down, but right now it’s almost impossible. We actually have a potential farm to use in the future so we could actually be “Farm to Bottle” at some point, but the main problem is cleaning and storing. It costs a lot of money, and most small farms don’t have the capability. If you have any leads, though, feel free to let me know!

MARK: What the entrepreneurial atmosphere like in Detroit these days? As new people on the scene, are you finding that there’s infrastructure to support you?

DAVID: The business environment in Detroit is amazing. We’ve had such unbelievable support and enthusiasm about our project from everyone… from city officials right down to the bartender around the corner at the Mercury Bar, who bought us shots when we signed our lease. Honestly, we couldn’t ask for a better situation. Our landlord has been more like a partner than a lessor, the city boards worked with us for countless hours making sure that we knew the exact process of application and permitting, and it goes on and on. We owe a lot to the people that have helped us along the way, and can’t wait to give back to the community, employ people, and add to the revitalization. I couldn’t be more excited about the potential of Detroit.

MARK: Next Saturday, as I understand it, representatives from a bunch of Michigan home brewing clubs will be converging in Ypsi, competing for the title of King Rat. Let’s start at the beginning. How did Rat Fest come about in the first place? And, more importantly, why’s it called Rat Fest? I don’t imagine it’s a reference to vermin in the grain bin… Or, is it?

DANNYBOY: Rat Fest was named after our 10 gallon pilot brew system, the Rat Pad. The name came about after a discussion I had with home brewing mentor, and friend of the Corner Brewery, Dr. Nick. We were talking about the newly built system, and what it should be called. Knowing that I like all things ratty and unpolished, the good Dr. came up with the nick-name. The name stuck, and the “Rat Pad” was born. The very first Rat Fest was a 24 hour brewing melee resulting in 24 beers brewed! This was spearheaded by the infamous, Mike “Brewgyver” O’Brien, along with numerous supporting members of the Ann Arbors Brewers Guild and the brewers of Arbor Brewing Company and the Corner Brewery. It was a huge and exhausting success, and we vowed never to attempt the 24-hour format again.

MARK: Looking over the list of participants, which includes representatives of the Ann Arbor Brewers Guild, local businesses like the Ugly Mug, and what appear to be loosely affiliated groups of friends with roller derby-inspired names, like the Detroit Draft Divas, and the Muskrat Mashers, I’m wondering what the criteria for participation are. Was there some kind of qualifying round, or is anyone who can field a group welcome to participate?

BARI: At this point, we’re still able to accommodate groups that express an interest in participating. They don’t have to be an official club or anything, just interested in the science and creativity that is beer. This year, we’re welcome two new clubs; The Detroit Draft Divas and CraftBeerinMi to the festival. In the future, if the event continues to grow, there may be an application process, but this year we just plan on expanding into the beer garden to accommodate the growth.

MARK: Having never been to a Rat Fest event, I’m not certain of this, but my sense is that, when this whole thing started a few years ago, individual brewers were encouraged to participate. Assuming that’s correct, why was the decision made to transition to a more team-oriented event? Have you found that the quality of the beer improves with the input of more individuals, or is it just easier to manage an event with fewer participating entities?

DANNYBOY: The original event couldn’t have happened without brew club support, and we’ve continued to partner with local home brewer clubs to grow the event each year. As you mention, team participation definitely helps produce fine small batch craft beers. And, working with the clubs is also cool because many of them have their own brewing equipment, bring their own draft dispensing gear to the event, and come with stuff like brew club banners and other themed materials. But, I think it’s worth pointing out that having a team isn’t necessarily essential to creating great beer.

MARK: Looking back over the past events, what are some of your favorite beers that have been introduced to the world during Rat Fest?

DANNYBOY: Some of the most memorable have been the Shebrew Rye Caraway Ale (tastes just like rye bread), the Pear Smoked Lager (malt smoked with pear wood), and the Lady Marmalade Triple Wit Bier (brewed with orange marmalade, coriander and black pepper). And then there are the crazier ones, like the Baked Potato (potato, bacon, smoked hops, chives) and the BLT Ale (with lettuce and tomato puree).

MARK: This year, it looks as though you’ve changed the rules a bit. For Rat Fest 2013, each team has been charged with creating four distinct beers… three that have been chosen from a “a predetermined list of styles,” and one that uses a common grain and yeast. And, with that one, if I’m not mistaken, the brewers have some flexibility with regard to hops and other ingredients. Is that correct? And how does that differ from previous years?

JOHN: Since Rat Fest is all about creativity, we wanted to encourage a balance of styles, so that we didn’t end up with 20 IPA’s and 16 Imperial Stouts. So, in an effort to push the creative prowess of our participating brewers, we thought it would be fun to challenge them with a limited pantry of common ingredients, which would allow them to inspire their brews in other ways. In years prior, we’ve simply let brewers choose their own path, resulting in many great results, but we found that often groups created very similar beers. The new guidelines have helped diversify the offerings, and will hopefully ensure that attendees will get a fresh and creative perspective from each home brewer team.

MARK: I’m curious as to what’s on this “predetermined list of styles.” How many styles are we talking about? And do you know in advance which ones these various groups have chosen to work on?

BARI: Each of the clubs had access to a spreadsheet indicating 14 different style options. Each style had 2-3 slots, and everything was on a ‘first come, first served’ basis… Like John said, we wanted to assure more diversity this year.

MARK: As for the ‘same grain, same yeast’ challenge, I image you’re doing that so that you have more of a baseline, head-to-head comparison between the participants, right? What’s the grain? And what’s the yeast?

JOHN: The original idea was to keep the grain and yeast the same across the board, and allow the brewers to experiment with the hops, water, and adjuncts, which would showcase the influence that those ingredients have on the beer. It turns out there was some confusion among the groups, though, and some of them added additional grains to their brews. So, at this point, it mostly serves as a baseline for the beers, without necessarily being a showcase of the ingredients… The yeast is Safale S-04, and the grain is mix comprised of – 65% 2-Row, 13% Munich, 4% Crystal-20, 9% Crystal-65, and 9% Flaked Oats.

MARK: How is the judging going to be done? Is it all by popular vote, or is there a panel of judges? And will there be awards for each style, or is there just one winner, based upon each team’s collective body of their work?

BARI: Ticket holders will be voting this year via a smart phone app or paper ballot. Awards will be presented in the 5 following categories: Favorite group of beers, Favorite overall beer, Most original use of predetermined recipe, Best decorated group table, and Most unique beer. The coveted Beer Cheese Trophy will again be presented to the club that takes Favorite Group of Beers.

MARK: Can you describe the Beer Cheese Trophy? Is it majestic?

BARI: It is literally what it sounds like – a pint of beer with a huge piece of cheese on top. We felt it was perfect for the theme. Last year is the first year that we gave the cheese trophy as a prize, so we’re hoping it will become more majestic over the years. If anything, it’s fun and a little bit strange, in a good way.

MARK: How much are tickets, and what do people get for the ticket price?

BARI: Ticket price is $30, and includes a sampling of the 36 featured beers, a commemorative tasting glass, and light appetizers. Last year, tickets sold out in advance, but, if any are still available, people can purchase them for $35 at the door.

MARK: Do you test these beers beforehand to make sure that there’s nothing beyond the pale? I ask because, in the past year, I’ve read both about a beer that was created with yeast cultivated in the beard of its brewer, and a beer that was fermented with a severed pig’s head. While, personally, I don’t have an issue with either, I’m wondering if you anticipate ever having to draw a line, or post warnings.

JOHN: We do sample and test all beers prior to releasing them. As this is indeed a food product, we want participants to have a safe and enjoyable experience. Every recipe is scrutinized by our staff prior to the brew session, and is monitored throughout fermentation and conditioning, the same way we would with any of our production beers. We have yet to see any outlandish attempts at pushing the envelope, such as an Ypsilanti Irish Red Squirrel, a Déjà vu Dunckel, or a Michigan Avenue C’mon Inn Bedspread Stout.

MARK: What’s the most outrageously creative beer that’s ever come to your attention through the Rat Pad process?

DANNYBOY: The Chips & Salsa Lager. Yes, it had salsa in it (and Ann Arbor Tortilla Company corn!). The flavors were so accurate that we decided to brew it on a large scale. It was not as highly regarded as we’d hoped, though, so it’s no longer in production.

MARK: Is there a chance that we might ever see one of these beers come to life as a regular Corner Brewery offering?

JOHN: We use the Rat Pad to test out recipes before bringing them to the production level. A couple Rat Fest beers have made the cut, and many of our present offerings began on the Rat Pad, including Mr. Delicious and Mackinac Island Fudge Stout.

MARK: Aside from Rat Fast, how are things going at the Brewery? Is there anything new that you’re working on that folks should know about?

BARI: Our ‘green brewery’ installations have been live since this past fall, and we’ve had many interested parties connect with us looking to become greener.

DANNYBOY: Next month we’re going to start bottling on our new line, which will triple our current output of packaged beer.

JOHN: We’re in the midst of a collaboration with Brouwerij The Musketeers of Belgium, who produce beers like Troubadour Blonde, Troubadour Magma, and Troubadour Obscura. We will be releasing two beers together, one brewed in Belgium, and one brewed in Ypsilanti. Immediately following Rat Fest, some of us will be traveling to Belgium to brew, and, the following week, their crew will come to Ypsi to brew. Both beers will be available statewide in May!

MARK: I’m not sure if you want for it to be public knowledge, but you’ve mentioned to me before that over half of your sales are non-alcohol, which, I suspect, isn’t something that you were anticipating when you opened a bar right across the street from Eastern Michigan University. Has that been the biggest surprise, or are there other, more significant, things that have caught you off-guard this first year in business?

JESSE: Well, honestly, everyday I’m caught off guard by something. That’s the restaurant business. As for the breakdown between alcohol and food, the other restaurant that I operate (Kelley’s Island House in Ohio) does about the same in terms of food-to-drink sales, and it’s more geared toward food culture, than the beverage side of things. I do feel that we are more unique as a bar in that we sell a lot more food than anticipated, but we also put a lot more effort into the food than we do into the beverage side. I mean, most of the work in pouring a craft draft is done by the brewery and the distributor before it even hits our draft system. I expected the food side to get where it is eventually, but it’s nice to see the hard work our kitchen crew delivers getting acknowledged so rapidly.

MARK: Did you bring your kitchen crew with you from Ohio, or are they all locals? And, if they are from here, how hard was it to build that team from scratch?

JESSE: Every year, the Island restaurant, which is seasonal, has a crew that’s about 80% new. This past year, we brought anyone (from Wurst Bar) that wanted to go with us and experience island life, and we returned with an Ohioan, Brigid, our Island House floor manager. So, whatever employees want to go with us to either place are more than welcome to. As for building the place from scratch every year, that’s been a great learning curve; in the past 5 years, we have basically opened 6 times from scratch between the two places. We opened Wurst Bar in 15 days, including remodeling and menu design. If you take out the remodeling, I think we have the process down to 6 days at this point. 6 days and hundreds of gray hairs.

MARK: As someone who finds business strategy unusually interesting, it’s been fun watching you change things up, and try new things. I was surprised, for instance, when $18 lobster rolls showed up as a special on the Wurst Bar menu. It’s not something that I would have expected, given the local economy. As they keep coming back, though, I’m guessing that you’ve found that there’s an untapped market for upscale fare. Now that you’ve established that, what’s next?

JESSE: Well, we sell a ton of lobster rolls in Ohio, and it was one of the most well-received specials that we ran, which is how it ended up on the menu. The lobster itself costs us around $25 a pound, not including the rest of the plate, so there’s a lot of risk in carrying an item like that unless it’s selling well. Since that worked, though, we’ve done a few “chef takeover” diners. They’ve been taking place the last Monday of each month… we let a different chef take over the kitchen, or Chef Klenotic spearheads something. Those takeovers really do well for us. The last one we had was mostly seafood-based, and we ended up selling way more steak than crab or raw oysters! A few weeks ago we ran a series of burgers that cost over $15 and included ingredients like duck fat, escargot and smoked goose skin, and we flew through those specials. So, there is definitely an upscale foodie presence in the area. I am not sure, though, that there is enough of one to base a business model on just yet, but there are definitely some Ypsilanti residents who don’t mind paying the extra money to get rare, or hard-to-make/source foods.

MARK: What can you tell us about Chef Klenotic? What’s his background?

JESSE: Chef Dan is an amazingly talented young chef that originally got into food by watching the Food Network, and got into the restaurant business as a dishwasher, eventually training under a chef in the Upper Peninsula. Then, he continued on in several Ann Arbor restaurants until he fell in with us. He has a great palate. If I were to have to describe the fine dining menu that he does for us in Ohio, I would have to say that the food follows the New Americana style, and his palate is based heavily in a fusion of Southeast Asian and Classic French cooking, like that of Julia Child.

MARK: I noticed a few changes when I was in last weekend. In addition to getting rid of the meat cooler at the front of the restaurant, and laying the groundwork for what looks like some significant renovation, it appears as though you’ve also gotten rid of the foosball table. I might be reading too much into the loss of the foosball table, but I’m guessing that its removal speaks to the fact that you’re shifting a little further across the continuum, away from the stereotypical college bar. Would I be right about that? Is this about making more room to accommodate sit-down diners?

JESSE: Well, the foos table just kept breaking… then the company we rented it from came and pulled it out one day without ever even mentioning it. So, I’m not really sure what the deal was there. I suppose having to constantly fix a foosball table that we don’t charge for is a pain in the rear, but, at the same time, you can’t expect that free games in a bar are going to be respected by every customer. As for the customer base, we’re not really moving along any continuum, but there is an end goal that we have in mind as far as the building design is concerned, and, toward that end, a construction application with the city is imminent for our new bathrooms… The crowd that comes in is very eclectic and, at any given time, there could be a table of grand parents sitting between some collegiate athletes and a group of local artists.

MARK: Is local competition beginning to step up a bit? I could be wrong about this, but, for instance, it seems to me that I’ve seen other bars start to do “tap takeovers,” where you have a particular brewery take over all of your taps for a predetermined period of time, since you introduced the concept locally. (I realize that bars elsewhere have been doing it, but, as far as I know, the Wurst Bar was the first place that I’d seen do it in Ypsi.)

JESSE: I think we covered competition in the last interview, and my opinion hasn’t really changed. I do not think that there is any competition in Ypsilanti – the market is still under developed and under appreciated in my opinion. A lot of the businesses in the area do share a lot of the same customers, but every additional business that offers something unique also adds to the quality of the entire neighborhood. This is not an area that has hit any saturation point, and, if another restaurant opened and we lost business, I would start heavily critiquing how I was approaching customers rather than think that they were being taken away. We still continually get customers that drive in to check us out from Birmingham, Royal Oak and Beverly Hills because of something they saw online. I think that’s great for other places as well. I live and work here in Ypsilanti and I would be pretty hard pressed to continue doing so if there were not other places to eat and socialize such as Sidetrack, Beezy’s or Red Rock.

MARK: On January 7, you’re set to begin late-night delivery service of brats and beer. What kind of market research did you do before deciding that this was something that you wanted to try, or was it just something that you felt might have promise… and didn’t require a lot of up-front investment?

JESSE: We don’t cater to the minors after 10:00 PM, as I feel it’s important to segregate the under-age population in a place where alcohol is served after the evening sets in. I do not, however, enjoy cutting them off from the food, so this offers a way for the younger population around here to still have access to our menu, if they get a late night craving for some of our food.

MARK: Are there plans afoot to open other Wurst Bars? I seem to recall there being talk about something in Ohio.

JESSE: Sure, we talk about it. The concept has been very well received and having another one an appropriate distance away would be something we’re interested in, but we haven’t really perfected everything in this location yet. Ask me again when we’ve upgraded the facade and the restrooms are new!

MARK: What’s been your biggest loser so far, brat-wise? Did any meat combinations just not work?

JESSE: So far, it’s all worked. We have tweaked some of the names, though. Our menu is small enough that most of the items we put on it have been dragged across at least a few different taste buds, and have been received well, but, when they’re not selling for us, we can keep the same recipe and just change the name. The Chicken Sausage Sandwich, for instance, became the Jerked Chicken Sausage Sandwich, which in turn became the Sweet n Spicy Chicken Sandwich… Not one of the 20 plus ingredients that go into the patty or the pepper coulis topping has changed, but the item definitely sells the best as the Sweet n Spicy Chicken Sandwich. I would have taken it off altogether, but I’m confident when I say that it’s one of my favorite menu items. (I literally just ate one for lunch.) We’ve reformatted the menu a few times, and stopped using fruit as an identifier when naming our sausages, although they’re often listed in the ingredients. All of the changes we’ve made were to help us showcase what we’d already identified as an item which should be well-received and unique.

MARK: When I talked with you a year ago, you said that you were going to attempt sourcing 85% of your raw ingredients from local manufacturers and distributors. How close have you come to meeting that goal? And, are there items that you’d like to find locally that you just haven’t been able to?

JESSE: Well, two menu printings ago, we used the back of the menu like a NASCAR, shamelessly advertising all of the local companies that we use for meats, and what not. Today, we source almost everything that we carry from local companies such as Frog Holler, Zingerman’s, Ferrari & Sons, Red Goose Spice Company and Sparrow Meats. And we use Michigan-based Green Safe for all of our paper products, and occaisionally have the Ypsi Food Coop order dry goods for us. We use Northern Haserot as our dry goods supplier and where we can not source locally with quality, such as hard cheeses, exotic meats and pantry goods. So, overall we are definitely locally sourced. I would be a lot happier if more farms were accessible to us (we locally get rabbit and duck as well), and I would love to have more involvement with the farm side of food, but there just has not been time to make those relationships yet.

MARK: You were nice enough, a few months ago, to sit down with a person that I know who has a food cart business in Ann Arbor and tell her what, from your perspective, it takes to be successful a restaurant owner in Ypsilanti. As I suspect that there are other would-be restauranteurs in the audience, I was hoping that perhaps you could share some of those same thoughts now… What are the top three pieces of advice you’d give someone thinking about opening a restaurant in Ypsilanti?

JESSE: Well, my business partner Jim would say: location, location, location, sign… I agree with that, and I would add that, regardless of where you wanted to open your business, if you want to be successful, you need to have a drive and passion for food and service. That’s the core. Someone who is disinterested in meeting new people every day is going to find this business a hard place to hang their hat. In the same respect, I think that emerging into any aspect of this business while television shows like Bar Rescue and Chopped are mainstream, you should have a passion and base of knowledge that is ever expanding through the discovery new foods and experimenting wildly within that knowledge.

MARK: I’m not sure I get your reference to Bar Rescue and Chopped. Are you saying that people are getting into the business, thinking that they’re ready for anything, because they’ve seen these food-based “reality” shows, but that you need to actually put in the time, understand food, develop your palate, etc.?

JESSE: No, not at all… I am specifically referring to our customers. It seems to be the trend that more and more people are watching and learning about food service and the culinary arts through television, blogs and social media. A few generations ago, families were passing on casserole recipes, and now they’re trying to find shishito peppers at the market to try and recreate something from their Bon Apetit subscription. So, I am saying that, as business owners and chefs, there has to be a constant desire to learn and grow in this field, or you’ll get lost in the mix, and forgotten about pretty rapidly.

MARK: You mentioned new bathrooms. Are the trough urinals on their way out? And, if so, what happens to retired trough urinals? Is there an after-market?

JESSE: They are on the way out! It has taken us a bit longer than we thought to get to the bathrooms, but I am getting ready to take drawings over to Ypsilanti’s building department in about 10 days. Hmmm… what could we do with the trough urinals? I guess we could always put them out back and start some sort of a garden.

MARK: Would the Health Department frown on salad greens grown in a retired urinal?

JESSE: Not if we call it recycled art.

MARK: How’s the lunch market? Have you been able to draw people over from the EMU campus, or does the fact that you’re a “bar” keep you from making inroads into the mid-day market?

JESSE: Lunches are a lot slower than dinner, but, as we constantly change and evolve to meet our customers demands, we have started working out some plans to drive lunch business to us. We will likely expand our delivery service over the next few weeks depending on the response it gets in the evening, and that should enhance our lunch reach.

MARK: Other than planning to expand delivery with the bratmobile, what else have you done to drive business during lunch?

JESSE: Advertising mostly… other than that I feel like lunch business is getting people in and out rapidly. There was a huge curve to cooking sausages from raw and getting them out in a rapid manner, especially early in the day, when our old grill was still starting to build heat. Even if you just take a raw Johnsonville Brat from the pack and grill it at home you’ll be looking at an 18-20 minute cooking time. When we started, it was taking about 17 minutes to cook our house-made brats, and then you add in the ordering time, and the part where the waitstaff is getting drinks. When you put it all together, there was easily a 20-30 minute time period between walking in the door and starting to eat. I would say most people don’t want to wait that long for the product that we’re serving, nor do they have that long for lunch, once you include traveling. So, getting the cooking times down by adjusting our methods and getting new equipment in, we’ve been able to drastically change the pace of our food service over the course of the year, and that’s starting to be reflected in our lunch service now.

MARK: Do you think, after a great many years of under-performance, that the Cross Street corridor might finally be turning a corner? And, if not, is there a particular kind of business that you think, if it were added to the mix, might make the difference? Is there, in other words, a niche that’s not being filled, that could really help pull students from the University?

JESSE: The more businesses that open and become successful along the corridor will, of course, improve the street. I don’t think that the type of business will matter as much as the construct in which it exists. For instance, there is a Sweetwaters going in a few doors down from us, and, from what I’ve seen at their Ann Arbor location, they invest a lot of effort in maintaining integrity and quality in the products that they serve. Getting a few more businesses into the area like that will not only bring students off campus, but they will bring students TO campus! EMU has a lot to offer, but one thing that is severely lacking is a “university town” type setting surrounding the campus, like you find in Ann Arbor, and pretty much any other town in the United States that has a college. That’s a big factor that a lot of potential students take into consideration when choosing a college. Frankly, I’m surprised that EMU is not bending over backwards to get as many potentially high quality and student-friendly businesses into the area as possible.

MARK: The history is interesting. After some brief flirtations with the City, during which they, for instance, constructed the Business School on Michigan Avenue, my sense is that the EMU administration made a conscious decision to pull away from the City, focusing all of their construction on the other side of campus. Personally, I think they’re afraid of the City. I think that’s why they built their new Student Center where they did, and why, a few years ago, they attempted to close College Place, the main thoroughfare connecting the campus with the City. It’s incredibly shortsighted, but I believe they think that bad things will happen if their students leave campus. Hopefully, however, that begins to change with the improvement of Cross Street. The bottom line is that the City can’t be successful without the University, and the University can’t be successful without the City. The sooner everyone realizes that, the better…. So, is there anything else that you’d like to say that I haven’t asked you about?

JESSE: I dont think so, you’re a very detailed interviewer. Thanks again for the opportunity to have a voice on your great blog.

[Now get over to the Wurst Bar, and wish Jesse and the staff a happy anniversary.]

While a good number of their donations thus far, via Kickstarter, have been relatively small, I think it’s interesting to note that several people have donated considerable amounts. Here’s the breakdown thus far… 11 at the $5 level, 19 at $25, 7 at $50, 11 at $100, 13 at $150, 3 at $500, and 3 at $1,000 or more. While I imagine that some of those larger donations are from well-off board members of non-profits that have personally benefitted from the chartable activities of the Bona Sera Supper Club, I think it’s still an encouraging sign for entrepreneurs looking for seed capital to open businesses in Ypsilanti. At least, if I were a food entrepreneur thinking of opening a business in town, I’d take note.

If this project sounds familiar, you may recall that I interviewed the women behind Bona Sera a few months ago, on the occasion of their being awarded a $1,000 grant from the A2Awesome Foundation to get the Cafe project off the ground.

And, here, if you haven’t seen it, is their Kickstarter video… If you’d like to contribute, you still have a day or so to do it. Just click here.