106 members of Congress are guilty of sedition

As you may have heard, the Supreme Court issued a one sentence order on Tuesday stating that they would not be hearing the case brought by Pennsylvania Republicans to overturn Biden’s victory over Donald Trump in their state. Trump’s assault on our nation isn’t over yet, though. There’s still one more election-related case before America’s highest court. The Attorney General of Texas, Ken Paxton, has filed a case alleging that Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and Georgia — four battleground states that Donald Trump lost — had “exploited the COVID-19 pandemic” when they made it possible for their citizens to vote-by-mail, and, in the process, unfairly skewed the results of the election against Donald Trump. The case, of course, is absolute bullshit, but Republicans across the country are throwing their support behind it, which is incredibly concerning for those of us who who would prefer America not to become a fascist dictatorship. Not only have 17 other red state Attorneys General signed-on, but today 106 Republican House members declared their support.

Just to be clear, these Republican officials are singing-on to a case that, absent any evidence of electoral fraud, is requesting that the ballots of millions be cast aside, making it possible for the loser of a free and fair election to remain in power. I know some will push back against me use of the word “sedition,” but it seems like the correct word to me. Here’s the dictionary definition: “Sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that tends toward rebellion against the established order.”

The Attorneys General of Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and Georgia have pushed back hard, encouraging the Supreme Court to throw the case out, as they did the Pennsylvania case a few days ago. “These continued attacks on our fair and free election system are beyond meritless, beyond reckless — they are a scheme by the President of the United States and some in the Republican party to disregard the will of the people — and name their own victors,” said Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro. And Joshua Kaul, the Attorney General of Wisconsin, had the following to say. “Texas proposes an extraordinary intrusion into Wisconsin’s and the other defendant states’ elections, a task that the Constitution leaves to each state,” he said. “Wisconsin has conducted its election and its voters have chosen a winning candidate for their state. Texas’s bid to nullify that choice is devoid of a legal foundation or a factual basis.” Donald Trump, however, is positioning this as a fight to save the nation. [As Trump and his team have been unable to produce any evidence of election fraud, it seems as though they’re just arguing that Biden shouldn’t be allowed to take office because he’s a terrible person, in spite fo the fact that an overwhelming majority of American voters elected him.]

[note: Just in case you missed it, the above looks like a concession on the part of Trump, acknowledging that there will be a Biden presidency.]

As for why Ken Paxton filed this suit, I’m inclined to agree with Republican Senator Ben Sasse, who suspects that the Attorney General of Texas may be fishing for a pardon… Paxton, you see, appears to be the subject of an FBI probe right now for offenses including bribery and abuse of his office. Here’s the quote from Sasse.

Why Paxton filed the case is less interesting to me, however, than the fact that 106 members of the U.S. House of Representatives today signed-on in support. That, I hope you’ll agree, is absolutely, fucking insane. Not only are elected representatives arguing that the results of an American election should be thrown out in states where their party’s candidate did not win (in hopes that Republican legislatures in those states might appoint their own pro-Trump electors), but they’re also alleging widespread fraud in an election that all of them just won. [All 106 who signed-on ran and won in 2020.] Here’s the list. One hopes that every one of them is forced to pay a price in the very near future for helping Donald Trump to push forward this vile act of sedition.

There was much more I was going to say on the subject, but then I happened across Susan Glasser’s piece in today’s New Yorker, which states everything better than I could ever hope to. Here’s an excerpt.

…In the days immediately following the election, Trump said that his goal was to “STOP THE COUNT.” Then it was to “stop the steal,” or to demand recounts, or to discover evidence of fraud. During this period, one senior Republican official said there was no real harm in letting Trump have his temper tantrum; it would not affect the outcome anyway. “What is the downside for humoring him for this little bit of time? No one seriously thinks the results will change,” the Republican told the Washington Post. “He went golfing this weekend. It’s not like he’s plotting how to prevent Joe Biden from taking power on January 20. He’s tweeting about filing some lawsuits, those lawsuits will fail, then he’ll tweet some more about how the election was stolen, and then he’ll leave.”

But, rather than merely taking a few days to come to terms with his loss, and then sulk off to Florida once the courts threw out his lawsuits, Trump has escalated and escalated, culminating on Wednesday with a single-word tweet announcing his new goal: not to win the election but to “#OVERTURN” the results. Even more strikingly, while his allies have lost fifty-plus cases since the election, Trump has convinced millions of Americans to believe that the election was rigged against him—seventy-seven per cent of Republicans now say massive fraud occurred, according to a new Quinnipiac poll out Thursday—and enlisted virtually the entire national leadership of the Republican Party in his concerted attack on the legitimacy of the results.

This week, twenty-seven House Republicans asked the Justice Department to appoint a special counsel to investigate the election—the same number as House and Senate Republicans who, as the Post found in a survey, will publicly recognize Biden’s victory. Not only have both Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy refused to recognize his win; they both voted against a ceremonial motion of the committee organizing the January 20th handover of power to “notify the American people” of plans to inaugurate Biden. In the immediate aftermath of the election, McConnell said that Trump “has every right to look into allegations and request recounts under the law.” Now that Trump has lost the recounts and lost the lawsuits, now that the results have been certified and Trump is openly talking about overturning them, McConnell has been silent.

Somehow, that’s the part I was not entirely prepared for, even after all the Republican enabling and excuses of the past four years. The ballots that Trump and his allies are attacking, after all, are the same that elected Trump’s allies, if not Trump himself. The votes that they want thrown out were cast not only by evil Democrats in faraway cities but by their friends and, in some cases, neighbors. They were counted and recounted and certified by Republican officials in many of the places that sealed Trump’s defeat…

These are dangerous and crazy times, my friends. And I’m afraid they are only going to get worse. In spite of the fact that no evidence of voter fraud has been offered, and state legislatures around the country have certified their vote counts, showing that Biden was the clear winner, there are still tens of millions of American citizens who apparently believe that the Supreme Court should exercise its “wisdom” and declare Donald Trump the winner.

update: The Supreme Court did the right thing and threw out the Paxton case. (None of the three Justices Trump nominated to the court have indicated that they supported the case.) I’m thankful they didn’t make us wait through the weekend. It’s also worth noting that, since I posted the above, quite a few people have started suggesting that we not seat the newly elected members of Congress who chose to join the suit.

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201 Comments

  1. Posted December 11, 2020 at 4:27 am | Permalink

    Undermining the fundamental institutions of this country is the only thing Trump has ever put any actual effort into as president. Fortunately his utter incompetence and lack of basic comprehension has acted as a safety mechanism, this time. Next time the country may not be so lucky.

  2. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    Interesting usage of the term “sedition”.

    I think we should all just start acknowledging Maynard as our King.

    Better yet let’s skip the acknowledge part. He should just force us to bow to his whims and judgments.

    There might be some short term discomfort for us but in the end we will all be better off under King Maynard.

    Legal appeals are sedition in Maynard-topia.

    I think it is time for Maynard to turn himself into the FBI. He might even get a job out of it.

  3. Anonymous
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    My guess is that this case will not be heard for lack of merit or standing or both. If it is heard it’ll be to settle issues of constitutional law relevant to state’s rights. Seeing that the judges that have thrown out every other case have been strict conservative constitutional judges appointed by Trump, I doubt the Supreme Court will be any different. It’s almost as if this is all fund raising theatrics for Trump, with his “supporters” going along until is completely ridiculously to do so. Remember what happened to McCarthy after his political peak? Neither do I.

  4. Posted December 11, 2020 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    Anonymous, the real reason Joe McCarthy disappeared was he DIED in 1957 (at age 48). He was still a US Senator. His fellow travelers continued his work attacking Americans who opposed our cold war policies. His protégé and ally was elected President twice (you might know of him).

  5. Meta
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    The Bulwark:

    Paxton’s lawsuit is so bad that Texas’s solicitor general—the official who would normally argue such cases before the Supreme Court, and who was appointed by Paxton—has refused to have anything to do with it. Similarly, Texas Republican Rep. Chip Roy, who previously served as a top aide to Paxton and chief of staff to Sen. Ted Cruz, wrote “I believe the case itself represents a dangerous violation of federalism & sets a precedent to have one state asking federal courts to police the voting procedures of other states.“ This isn’t Roy’s first time calling out Paxton; he also called for Paxton to resign in October when Paxton’s aides went public with their complaints.

    Still, 18 GOP attorneys general and 106 Republican members of Congress are going along with Paxton’s nonsensical bid to nullify votes in four states that didn’t go for Trump.

    Some of them may actually believe in the president’s election conspiracies. But, most are probably just playing along with Trump’s seditious delusions because they see no downside in engaging in some constitutional crisis kayfabe.

    On Monday, Sen. Cruz agreed to argue another of the ridiculous and anti-democratic lawsuits lobbed into the lap of the Supreme Court. The Court tossed away that lawsuit like a hot potato, as everyone expected it would—which is probably why Cruz agreed to argue the case in the first place. It’s like offering your kidney to a sick friend who you secretly know isn’t a blood match. You look like a hero while fully confident it would never functionally work out anyway.

    Maybe that also explains why Paxton filed his lawsuit. Maybe he thinks of it as mere legal lip service for a friend, not a serious case that will lead to anything actionable.

    The rotten thing is that Paxton, and all the state attorneys general and members of Congress who signed the amicus briefs, are all abusing their official offices to do it, which is its own low form of corruption.

    Because sleaze isn’t always about indictments and crimes, although Paxton is well acquainted with those. There’s plenty of perfectly legal soft deceits in plain sight.

    Like the basic act of enlisting government lawyers to make a bogus case to overturn an election, whether or not it’s in hopes of snagging a presidential pardon. Or, using taxpayer-funded staff to pump out press releases supporting the whole farce, to make it seem legit.

    Read more:
    https://thebulwark.com/whats-a-little-abuse-of-power-among-friends/

  6. Lynne
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    It worries me that so many see our elections as fraudulent even in the face of so much evidence that it is not. There are potential good sides though. I mean, what if this discourages those people from voting? Surely Russia can’t be the ONLY nation using internet trolls to influence our elections? I sure hope there are an army of trolls manipulating these people into not voting! Maybe I will form my own Parlor troll army where we can just kind of plant that seed. “The system is rigged. No point in voting.” Bwa ha ha ha ha ha

  7. Demetrius
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient Rush Limbaugh weighs in … (Washington Post)

    … I actually think that we’re trending toward secession,” he said on Wednesday’s show. “I see more and more people asking what in the world do we have in common with the people who live in, say, New York? What is there that makes us believe that there is enough of us there to even have a chance at winning New York? Especially if you’re talking about votes.”

    … Limbaugh has also hailed the Texas attorney general’s lawsuit challenging voting rules in four key states that enabled Biden’s victory — Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and Georgia — in a last-ditch attempt to hand the election to Trump. “This is the one team Trump has been aiming at all along,” Limbaugh said on the air on Wednesday.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/rush-limbaugh-trump-secession-election/2020/12/10/8889397a-3b0d-11eb-bc68-96af0daae728_story.html

  8. Nobody
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    Filosopher Flakes says “There is a sheep out there that people are saying is black, but I think it is worth investigating if it is white on the other side and then determining which side was painted.”

  9. Posted December 11, 2020 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    I’m curious to learn how King Maynard is forcing Frosted Flakes to visit, read and comment here.

  10. Posted December 11, 2020 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    FF, don’t let that liberal intolerance (shouldn’t that be an oxymoron ?) drive you off this site. If you leave, I’ll be the only bigot left they can insult, I mean engage in polite discourse.

  11. True Patriot
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    Of course they cannot explain how millions and millions of ballots were corrupted just for the Presidential election, because surely each of 106 were properly elected without any hint of fraud on the same ballot. It’s not that I want to see any election result overturned, but a tiny part of me would sort of maybe like to see all these 106 thrown out of office if the ballots were tossed out and new elections were held. What I hope will happen is that someone in each district will launch a recall for each of these Republicans, for their complicity in supporting an act of sedition against the United States.

  12. Joe
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    The use of the term sedition in this article is apt.
    From the House itself, they and Trump are guilty of sedition.
    https://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1700s/The-Sedition-Act-of-1798/
    The Sedition Act of 1798
    In one of the first tests of freedom of speech, the House passed the Sedition Act, permitting the deportation, fine, or imprisonment of anyone deemed a threat or publishing “false, scandalous, or malicious writing” against the government of the United States.
    Under the incoming Republican administration, the Sedition Act eventually expired on March 3, 1801;

    If the attempt to subvert the legal election results goes further and force is used, then the following may apply:
    18 U.S.C. § 2384 – U.S. Code – Unannotated Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure § 2384. Seditious conspiracy
    If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

  13. Posted December 11, 2020 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Starting to game out Trump possible end games. SCOTUS is likely to issue a decision this afternoon rejecting the Texas lawsuit. If they decide to hear the case–all bets are off. Assuming they do not hear the case, on Monday Dec. 15 the Electoral College officially votes. We pretty well know the outcome of that vote now. On Jan. 3 the 117th. Congress convenes. The Democrats are likely to have an 8-10 vote majority, though Republicans will control a majority of state delegations. The Republicans will have a 51-48 majority in the Senate regardless of the out come of the January 4th. Georgia special election (whatever changes that election creates will not be effective till later in Jan.). On Jan. 5 Congress will convene to certify the Electoral College election. Republicans in the House have already announced they will dispute certifying the electors from Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Georgia. I am unaware of any Republican Senators being on board yet, but Lindsey Graham seems likely.
    How many Congress people currently have covid? How many will get it between now and Jan. 5? How many will be hospitalized or in quarantine?
    The man still has some viable long shot options folks.

  14. Posted December 11, 2020 at 3:49 pm | Permalink

    Well here is a Democrat who is willing to fight back. We will see if Democratic Leadership is willing to play hardball.

    https://twitter.com/BillPascrell?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1337482153752453120%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F100214693992

  15. Joe
    Posted December 11, 2020 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    ignorance of the law caused by censorship is as real as presidential caused ignorance.

  16. Posted December 11, 2020 at 6:54 pm | Permalink

    Supreme Court has rejected the TX BS court challenge.

  17. Posted December 11, 2020 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

    Supreme Court Shuts Door On Trump Election Prospects

    https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/945617913/supreme-court-shuts-door-on-trump-election-prospects

  18. Posted December 12, 2020 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    Trump’s Final Days of Rage and Denial

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/us/politics/trump-presidency-election-loss.html?0p19G=2103

  19. John Brown
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    At this point I’d put it at 50:50 whether he ends up Epsteined in a New York State prison or takes Russia up on its offer of sanctuary. How his Idiocracy death cult reacts to his fate is TBD, and the curse that will keep giving over time. Ammo still relatively unavailable due to extreme demand.

  20. Dirtgrain
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    “Don’t mess with Texas.” Psh.

  21. Posted December 12, 2020 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    JB, glad to see the Company has you back on the job.. what do you do with unused ammo? I remember going to the old Gibraltar Trade Center when they still had the gun shows. Could get a Hungarian AK-47 knock off for under $400. This must be nearly 20 years ago now. My paranoid right wing friend bought one. He also purchased like 10,000 rounds of ammo. It took both of us to lug the ammo boxes they were so heavy. Anyway he killed himself with opioids (alcohol does not go well with vicaden abuse). He had shot up a fair amount of his ammo stockpile over the years, but his widow (not quit as looney–more like JH in her social status and perspective on life) has moved to the big island of Hawaii (money can be a good substitute for happiness) and wants to liquidate her late husbands gun collection.
    Does 20 year old ammo have any value? I read the other day where they discovered some huge unexploded WWII bomb that they had to diffuse. It seems like it would degrade. They are 7.62 rounds, don’t know what other weapons they might fit.

  22. iRobert
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    Giuliani was just on the Fox Noise Channel going nuts. He said “one state had 60,000 dead people vote, and another state had 40,000”

    Odd that he wouldn’t say the names of these states. Maybe he was referring to the two mysterious states they mentioned in the Texas filing dismissed by the Supreme Court yesterday, “New Nevada” and “New California.”

  23. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Legal appeals are an affirmation of the authority of the system!

    106 are reaffirming the authority of the system by participating in that system.

    They are not guilty of sedition. LOL

    Maynard is guilty of something—least of which is misunderstanding what how the word “sedition” is ordinarily used…He can argue about it he wants but I don’t think it will work out too well for him if he tried.

  24. Marion Morrison
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    SEDITION:
    conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.

    Frosted Flakes is just that.

  25. Elviscostello
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    Frosted Flakes, my reading of sedition makes it clear that this was…
    “incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.”
    “ any action, especially in speech or writing, promoting such discontent or rebellion.”

    If a recount would rid me of the Bible-thumping , Theo gray hypocrite, Tim Walberg, I’d make that deal

  26. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 12, 2020 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    Costello and Abbot should document the seditious speech act and hand it over to the law enforcement and the courts. Oh wait. They themselves already handed over all of the documentation of their own sedition to the Supreme Court already? You win. Bye.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv220y

  27. Anonymous
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    FF,

    I forgot what the over/under thing you had with someone about deaths at the end of the year. Can you refresh our memories?

    https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2020/12/10/doylestown-ohio-family-emails-covid-19-pandemic-death/3799056001/

  28. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    I said under 410 k dead.

  29. Posted December 13, 2020 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    FF, prove it. I believe you were telling numbers half that high last spring. When did you come to the believe that 410K would be dead by the end of the year. I don’t think even I was predicting this kind of slaughter back in May. Did you come up with that new number last week? If you were predicting 410K back when we were arguing about how well DeSantis was doing, I sure missed it.
    I fail to understand how some one, like yourself who obviously sees the carnage here can be so callus in support of a regime that has allowed the “worst” case predictions from 9 and 10 months ago to become true. Are you fundamentally in favor of the “boomer broom”? As long as the deaths are among the old and infirm its ok?

    I believe my prediction from 10 months out, was as many as a half a million dead by inauguration day, Trump is doing everything he can to reach that goal. MAGA

  30. Posted December 13, 2020 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Jimmy Dore and other 3rd. party progressives are demanding that the “progressives” in the new Congress demand a vote in the House for Medicare for All in exchange for their voting for St. Nancy for Speaker. The Democrats did so badly in this last election that their majority in the new house will likely under 10 votes. Between covid, quarantines, and Biden picks for his Cabinet 8 to 10 Democrats who are willing to work for the people could get Medicare for All up for a vote.
    Sounds to me the way hardball politics are supposed to be played. If they role over and do nothing, we will know how the next four years are going to go.

  31. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Wobblie,

    My prediction of under 410k was in response to the “experts” predicting that we would probably hit 410k dead by Jan 1.

    I was not making predictions early. Except for the fact that I predicted very early that MI was going to get hit very hard early. Do you remember that one of our local “experts” argued with me about my prediction that MI was going to be the Italy of the Midwest?

  32. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    Wobblie,

    I take it seriously. I quit my gym 2 weeks before gyms closed and convinced my significant other to do the same. I think you are stereotyping my views and attributing stuff to me because I argued FL was doing better than MI. I still think FL is doing better than MI.

  33. Lynne
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Florida is doing better than Michigan but it isn’t because of policy. It is because being outdoors this time of year there is kind of nice.

  34. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    People argue that FL saved lives by setting up 5 separate COVID centers for the nursing home pop. Early on FL was 3 weeks behind MI in terms of infections. I have provided those numbers several times here. Although I do agree that seasonality is helping FL now I do not believe that seasonality explains how FL is **still** doing better than MI overall.

  35. Posted December 13, 2020 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    Florida’s deaths per capita briefly exceeded Michigan’s in late summer and early autumn, but northern states are experiencing their expected cold weather surge.

    The southeast US only experienced one big surge for that period between late summer through mid-autumn. Naturally that period of surge doesn’t compare with the amount of time northern metro areas have experienced surge. And the surge in the northern metros has been more dramatic as well.

    This is all essentially the same pattern as is seen with all flu and cold viruses which run their course through the country. Colds and Flus hit far fewer people in the south than they do in the north. Understanding that should be a no-brainer.

  36. Posted December 13, 2020 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Texas GOP chair floats secession for ‘law-abiding states’ after Supreme Court defeat

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/529926-texas-gop-chair-appears-to-suggest-secession-after-scotus-rejects

  37. Posted December 13, 2020 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    My attempt to look at trumpvirus deaths per capita
    1 per 1013 Michigan
    1 per 840 Indiana
    1 per 1096 Florida
    1 per 1956 California
    1 per 554 New York
    1 per 657 North Dakota
    Italy 994
    Looks like Indiana is the Italy of the Midwest. Like almost everything else, Indiana is the pit of the midwest . N. Dakota really takes the cake though, you would think a dolt like me was running things . Why isn’t Florida doing at least as well as California?

  38. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Yes and FL has a much more vulnerable population. Understanding that should be a no-brainer.

  39. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Dude,

    It is not my job to clarify every nonsense assumption you have about my positions. I compared MI to Italy in March and in the short term that was prescient, dickhead!!!

    Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 19, 2020 at 4:26 pm | Permalink
    336 positive
    That is not the bad news.
    Take a look at the positive/negative ratio and compare to other states. Michigan numbers seem likely to explode, I think.
    Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 19, 2020 at 4:39 pm | Permalink
    Maybe we can spin the marketing to tourists: “Italy of the Midwest”.

  40. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie,

    You can’t think of non-policy related reasons why FL might be more vulnerable to COVID than CA? Really?

  41. Jean Henry
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Really curious about what you mean there re Florida v California?

  42. Posted December 13, 2020 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    In 2018, the median age of all people in California was 36.7 vs. 42.2 in Florida. Michigan is 39.8. Does a 14% older population account for nearly a 50% difference in mortality? If so, then by that metric Florida is doing worse than Michigan (the age difference between Michigan and Florida is only about 6% while our deaths per 1000 are very close). South Carolina which has a population just slightly younger than Michigan is running 1084 deaths per thousand, slightly worse than Michigan.
    Climate and age are clearly factors at some level. I suspect the real dividing line is income, those statistics are harder to find.
    FF, glad to see you have opted to maintain your cordial discussion style. In a changing world it is good to see somethings never change.

  43. Posted December 13, 2020 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    The flu kills more people per capita in Michigan every year than it does Floridians. No brainer, FF.

  44. Posted December 13, 2020 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    For how many weeks have northern metros like New York, Chicago and Detroit spent experiencing powerful surges? For how many weeks has Florida been experiencing comparably powerful surge?

  45. Posted December 13, 2020 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    Click on this link and look at the last bar graph at the bottom of the page. It is very evident that the (Spring) surge in northern metropolitan areas was considerably more voluminous than the (Summer) surge in the southeast and southwest. It also appears that the current surge is more voluminous than the Spring surge.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

  46. Posted December 13, 2020 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

    Now click on this link and look at the last bar graph at the bottom of the page. This time we’re looking at deadly reported deaths for Florida only. It is very evident that the (Summer) surge in the southeast and southwest is what accounts for the greatest volume of deaths in Florida. The current surge is not quite as voluminous as that Summer surge was.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

  47. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 13, 2020 at 4:46 pm | Permalink

    JH: The 2 non policy related factors I was thinking about were 1) indoor living seasons and 2) age of population that is elderly.

    Wobblie: Comparing median ages is not the way to go at all. Come on! I am not going to do your work for you but I am confident that FL has the highest percentage of over 75 of the three states.

    iRobert: FL has had to endure an indoor/AC season that I would guess is May-september (5 months). MI has had to endure a Covid indoor heating season of March-May (3 months) and October-mid December (2.5 months). A lot of California is majority outdoor living year round so they have an advantage. I also believe sunshine/ vitamin D plays a role so there is a built-in disadvantage for MI.

    General statement for all of you: I am sorry but I don’t think you guys are qualified to take multiple factors/ interventions into account in your attempts to give your assessments….Little things like Wobblie using median age make me just shake my head….That JH does not see obvious advantage for Californians makes me wonder what the hell she must be thinking….That iRobert wants to compare COVID to the flu and in the same breath say it is a “no brained” does not inspire confidence that he knows what he is talking about.

  48. Posted December 13, 2020 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Now click on this third link and look at the last bar graph at the bottom of the page. This time we’re looking at daily reported deaths for Michigan only. Here we can observe that Michigan experienced the (Spring) surge and the current surge. But through the Summer while states in the Southeast and Southwest were experiencing their first significant surge, Michigan was fairly controlled and stable. The current surge is looking to be comparable in volume to Michigan’s Spring surge.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/michigan/

  49. Posted December 13, 2020 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    You should understand what the point is of looking at flu and cold numbers from previous years. It very relevant data as a control. Michigan always experiences more flu and cold cases per capita than Florida or any other southern state. Michigan always records more deaths per capita from influenza than Florida or any other state. Do you not see the value of that information in looking at this virus’ patterns?

    I understand your criticisms of Wobblie’s comparing median ages. I think your criticism is very valid. I expect Wobblie will admit that if he is willing to be honest.

    I also understand and agree with your criticism of Jean’s comment. Clearly there are far more variables and significant ones to be considered than just state policies.

  50. Posted December 13, 2020 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    I can explain in what ways the flu and cold data is relevant and in what ways it isn’t. But I’d assume I don’t have to. I would also assume it’s understood that climate and season are significant factors.

    On another subject, have you checked the president’s twitter feed recently? I know it would violate your strict policy of thinking or talking about anything he does, but you may want to take a look. You can always pretend like you didn’t and stick to your policy of silence here.

  51. John Brown
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    Wobblie, reading the news of fascist street attacts today it seems like your friend wasn’t as paranoid as you may have wished to think. His widow should contact the Socialist Rifle Assoc SE Mich chapter. It doesn’t go bad if it’s stored dry.

  52. Jean Henry
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Florida’s population over 65 is 19% v CA’s 11%.

  53. Wobblie
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    No JB, it is a good thing he killed himself. He was preping his farm to defend it from the hordes who were coming from Detroit to get his stuff. Do you think anyone but a rightwing nut is going to buy 10000 rounds of ammo as part of his Y2k preps. Fear of losing privilege and wealth is a major driver of lunacy.
    FF, you really need to work on your debating skills. I know the “dickhead” argument seems quit compelling on its face, but is not a really winning argument. I mean it leaves half the population out of the equation, and if the other half engages in even a moment of honest self-reflextion, they will admit they are in fact a dickhead.

  54. Wobblie
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    FF since you and I are the last bigots standing, I’ll share my secret debating argument. The scum bucket argument is a winner whenever I deploy it. I mean think about it for a moment. Nothing sexist about it—totally gender neutral. It encompasses all bodily fluids whether naturally excreted by a human or created by other natural sources (pond scum comes to mind) or created by chemical, industrial means.
    Its logical simplicity almost always caries the day.

  55. Anonymous
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    HW has weed. EOS has the Bible. FF has grievance. Maybe he’s celebrating Festivus. They all feel good, even though they might not be.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/12/12/trump-grievance-addiction-444570

  56. Wobblie
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    I need to apologize for my prior derogatory comment about Indiana. Only Hoosier creativity would have come up with
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/portable-toilet-company-holiday-light-show-singing.amp

  57. Posted December 14, 2020 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    Trumpanzees ate busy. They’re doing their duty and threatening electors today as Trump had instigated them to do.

  58. Posted December 14, 2020 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    Trumpanzees are busy.

    Te electors in a number of “red” states have voted ready this morning, so 35 votes have been cast for Trump. Biden only has 7 at this point. Trump and his supporters should declare victory based on this. Then later they can say it’s impossible that Biden came back from that deficit.

  59. Posted December 14, 2020 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Illinois electors just voted! Now Biden is up to 27! They’re rigging it! Time to turn up the threats and chaos!

    Trump is doing a “good job.”

  60. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    That’s right, bitch. I’m not lying when I say every single thing you say falls apart.

  61. Wobblie
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Concerning the prior discussion on how Florida’s response to the trumpvirus compares to California, Im going to assume the Tampa Bay Times has spent more time engaging in the analysis than we have

    https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2020/12/12/is-florida-better-than-california-at-containing-the-coronavirus-analysis/

  62. Demetrius
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Given everything that’s going on … am I the only one feeling grateful (and relieved) to see these two Michigan Republican leaders taking such a clear stand?

    Detroit Free Press: Michigan GOP legislative leaders seek to ease tensions ahead of Electoral College vote

    LANSING — Republican leaders of the Michigan Legislature explicitly conceded the election to Democratic President-elect Joe Biden Monday in an apparent effort to ease tensions just ahead of Michigan’s Electoral College vote.

    The statements from Senate Majority Leader Mike Shirkey, R-Clarklake, and House Speaker Lee Chatfield, R-Levering, came amid continuing calls for the Republican-controlled Legislature in Michigan to defy the certified election results and somehow name a slate of electors for Republican President Donald Trump. They rejected those requests, which are based on unsubstantiated claims of voter fraud and election irregularities.

    The GOP statements also came amid security concerns that have closed legislative offices in Lansing ahead of the Electoral College vote at 2 p.m. in the Senate chamber. The Capitol is also closed to the public.

    “Michigan’s Democratic slate of electors should be able to proceed with their duty, free from threats of violence and intimidation,” Shirkey said. “President-elect Biden and Vice President-elect Harris won Michigan’s presidential election. It is our responsibility as leaders to follow the law and move forward in pursuit of policies that contribute to the betterment of Michigan.”

    House Speaker Lee Chatfield, R-Levering, said he fought hard for Trump and “nobody wanted him to win more than me. ”

    However, “I love our republic, too,” Chatfield said. “I can’t fathom risking our norms, traditions and institutions to pass a resolution retroactively changing the electors for Trump, simply because some think there may have been enough widespread fraud to give him the win.

    “That’s unprecedented for good reason. . ” And that’s why there is not enough support in the House to cast a new slate of electors. I fear we’d lose our country forever. This truly would bring mutually assured destruction for every future election in regards to the Electoral College.”

    https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/14/michigan-gop-shirkey-chatfield-electoral-college-vote/6541772002/

  63. Anonymous
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/14/gary-eisen-michigan-electoral-college-radio-interview/6537175002/

    Is this HW’s big surprise?

  64. Anonymous
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian Warlord

    That’s right, bitch. I’m not lying when I say every single thing you say falls apart.

  65. Anonymous
    Posted December 14, 2020 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    The protest size was amazing!

    https://www.mlive.com/politics/2020/12/tiny-trump-faction-bemoans-pathetic-turnout-at-michigan-capitol-before-electoral-college-vote.html

  66. Posted December 15, 2020 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    All of this bullshit has only been happening because Trump is a moron who is too dumb and emotionally fucked up to understand he lost. His supporters that are too stupid to understand that are right there with him. They’re severely mentally challenged and have found a whole make-believe world of common delusion with one another.

    These are the same idiots that didn’t understand the virus was going to run its course through the population unless swift and effective action was taken very early to dramatically slow and stop spread before it broke out of isolated pockets. Not comprehending that is imbecilic. They don’t know what competence looks like.

    After January 20th, Trump and his Panzees will either continue to fuck up the Republican Party beyond recognition or Trump will be taken down by an interest which would prefer a viable party.

  67. Jean Henry
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    Poor HW– He showed up after Trump won to gloat and said he was being magnanimous. Now Trump has lost and he just shows up occasionally to sputter a few invectives. He has not won. He has lost and he can’t handle engaging from that POV. Neither can EOS apparently.

    Everything they said has fallen apart. They’ve been owned.

  68. Jean Henry
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    Re Mark’s update:

    I may have missed it but did no one mention the irony of Dem Rep Pascrell calling for not seating lawfully elected members of congress because they were opposed to seating lawfully elected Biden?

    Partisan politics is gross.

  69. Lynne
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    I think HW is pretty typical. I think there are a lot of people out there who aren’t too bright and who realize that without a LOT of white male privilege, they are simply not going to do as well or acheive as much. LIke that guy at the WSJ who was upset about Jill Biden using the title “Dr”. So for guys like HW, it has been about bullying people. They like Trump because he is cruel to people and now that Trump has been shown to be a loser and weak, it is hard for them! No bully to hide their weak psyches behind1 Their weakness has been exposed and I imagine it hurts! I still expect violence from those sorts. It feels ironic that we have spent trillions on the War on Terror when the real threat was domestic white men!

  70. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Lynne has theories which protect her from realities about herself.

    #gagagoogoo

  71. Anonymous
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

    How about those legal theories from “Stop the Steal”? First year procedural law. Standing. Texas has none in Michigan, or Wisconsin, or in any other state other than Texas. Summary judgement for lack of merit. The Michigan plaintiffs did not present any factual evidence to support their claim before a judge. Nor did any of the other internal state cases.

  72. Wobblie
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    I think the reason we have not heard anything from EOS (besides that move to Georgia) is the Christian right (at least the DeVoss wing) has decided Trump is history, it was DeVoss Republicans here in Michigan that made sure Biden’s election was certified. (Pence has been keeping a pretty low profile too). Trump is starting his 2024 campaign, but so is Pence. Only the Qann crazies and racist will be left for Trump to try to rally, but as others have pointed out he’s just another looser now.

  73. Sad
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Mayor Pete for transportation secretary?

    Go figure

    I guess Joe knows

  74. Jean Henry
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/why-representative-mike-johnson-thinks-that-the-election-isnt-over

    This was interesting… Always good to hear what the other side is thinking. The legal argument is really about mail in voting being excused by EO and not the legislatures. It’s semi-solid actually.What isn’t solid is one state not impacted suing other states who are. If someone wanted to bring that suit, they needed to do it from the states impacted. I haven’t looked to see if that argument was made in cases in MI, PA etc. I’d be interested to see those decisions if they were.

    PS something being unconstitutional doesn’t;t mean that it’s inherently wrong, just open to challenge. The constitution is an imperfect document. It’s still an amazing document, but with some glaring omissions and some pretty gross parts that for the most part are now obsolete. legal enslavement of incarcerated persons being a notable exception..

  75. Posted December 15, 2020 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    HW promised us a Q-anon Night of the Long Knives, with 150,000 indictments being unsealed. Did the City Attorney get his son back on his meds after being tipped off by a mysterious stranger?

  76. Sad
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 6:16 pm | Permalink

    Granholm for energy department?

    What the hell is Joe doing?

  77. Lynne
    Posted December 15, 2020 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    A really good job, Sad!

  78. Posted December 15, 2020 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

    Can we get an update on the Russiagate prosecutions?

  79. Posted December 16, 2020 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    Why did the mystery tipster wait until after the election to notify the City Attorney that his son had gone off his meds? I want answers!

  80. Wobblie
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    JH like always I want to be sure I understand your enlightened comments. I am confused, “ now obsolete. legal enslavement of incarcerated persons being a notable exception..”. Does this mean you are in favor of the of the 13 amendment or opposed? Off hand it seems like the 13 amendment was one of those compromises you are always in favor of, but it would not surprise me if I misunderstand what is the
    “Notable exception”.

  81. Wobblie
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    The nations wealth is being sucked up to the top 1% faster than she can give it away. Giving away a billion a month while your wealth increases on average 2.3 billion a month hardly seems like a hardship. Why doesn’t she just send us our stimulus checks. I mean we are privatizing everything else.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-15/mackenzie-scott-gives-away-4-2-billion-within-four-months

  82. Anonymous
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    I’m guessing that JH means “notable example”. You are on your computer with a big monitor and full keyboard, while she is on a tiny phone with auto correct and vision limitations.

  83. Posted December 16, 2020 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Ex-HPD captain accused of holding repairman at gunpoint in bogus voter-fraud conspiracy, prosecutors say

    https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2020/12/15/dirty-politics-former-hpd-captain-charged-with-holding-repairman-at-gunpoint-in-bogus-voter-fraud-conspiracy/

  84. Jean Henry
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Thank you Anonymous, but I meant ‘exception.’ The sentence was simply poorly crafted. To clarify, the 13th amendment needs to be amended to remove the last line which allows the enslavement of incarcerated persons, many of whom currently work for private industry for pennies an hour. While many gross parts of the constitution are now obsolete (like the 3/5 person nonsense) the enslavement of incarcerated persons is still in practice. If they received even the legal minimum wage, they would be in much better shape to succeed when returned to society.

  85. Jean Henry
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Wobblie– I suggest you watch 13th for more context.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6IXQbXPO3I

  86. John Brown
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Not a word from the GOP or agent orange on the hacking of US Govt computer systems. Anyone still in denial the he and the GOP leadership are traitors compromised by pootin?

  87. Anonymous
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

    It would be more accurate to say that you (and I) would like the 13th amendment to be amended. Constitutional changes are dependent on the acceptance of 2/3 of the states, and the general modern American societal preference is more in favor of a system of retributive rather than rehabilitative justice as compared to earlier days. Hence the term penitentiary rather than prison.

    Because of statutory sentencing put in place by legislative means, judges have lost a great deal of discretion in sentencing convicts, and the discretionary power is more effectively in the hands of the prosecutors and the press bargaining process.

    Forced lifetime penal labor was considered more enlightened and less barbarous than the alternative that it was meant for, which was the death penalty.

  88. Anonymous
    Posted December 16, 2020 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    https://mobile.twitter.com/TX_MockingBird/status/1339205643828400130?s=20

    Sidney Powell, making the GOP tent smaller.

  89. Wobblie
    Posted December 17, 2020 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    JH you may remember I was promoting the Attica anniversary prison strike against slavery a couple of years ago. My union began organizing prison slaves back in 1986–I signed up our first prison members—first strike for freedom was in the mid-Ohio prison complex.
    One of my favorite journals for many years was “Bulldozer, the only vehicle for prison reform”

    13th is a decent movie—glad you are getting on board.

  90. Wobblie
    Posted December 17, 2020 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Good article on the Scotus decisions. Makes the point that its refusal to intervene in Trumps favor had much more to do with the size of Biden’s victory than the Republican justices commitment to the law.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/liberals-were-right-to-fear-the-supreme-court-s-election-intervention/ar-BB1bTizN?fbclid=IwAR06kZl0bryzf6x0NW1Yf2pb1bJHdpe2nuRR8urxmbGQHs6SPhZCs8TxewU

  91. Jean Henry
    Posted December 17, 2020 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Wobblie- I have been on board since the 80’s and opposed prison expansion as it was happening. My son made a presentation on mass incarceration, prison labor and the war on drugs in 5th grade. My daughter has been active in the abolition movement. You don’t know shit about me. I kissed your post because I don’t read most of them. Your 9-11 false flag beliefs render you useless as a source of information in my book.

    Anonymous— I used the word ‘amend,’ I don’t understand your point. Sounds to me like you are repeating my point as though it was yours. What an I missing?

  92. Wobblie
    Posted December 17, 2020 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    Thanks for being honest. If you would occasionally look beyond your class interest maybe you would find your way to voting for politicians who actually opposed mass incarceration, and opposed massive transfers of wealth to the 1%.
    I try to read everything you post. Not because you provide much in the way of new info, but in order to try to understand how hypocrisy works among the liberal elite.

  93. Jean Henry
    Posted December 18, 2020 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    I understand voting as just one of many ways to participate in creating democratic change and one of the most limited. I would never throw away a vote, or, worse, help the worst candidates, by voting for a candidate whose positions I believe but who could never win. Because I care more about the impact of my vote than I do about stroking my own sense of righteousness.

    If I ever start believing that our government would collapse a building full of financiers on WALLSTREET to create an excuse for war in the Middle East, I hope you will disregard my posts, Wobblie. I know those people and have spent time around them in their exclusive clubs and schools and fucking mountain preserves and I can assure you those within that group with power would never, ever do anything to harm wall street or anyone in it. Wall Street is literally all they care about outside their clubs.

  94. Anonymous
    Posted December 18, 2020 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/kushner-trump-family-shell-company-b1776359.html

    Keep on donating to stop the steal!

  95. Posted December 19, 2020 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    JH, they will lie with impunity to launch a war of aggression causing a million (?) innocent dead. But I suspect you also don’t believe that happened during your life-time. I remember, they promised a generational conflict(they delivered on that promise). They ( I include you by the way in the they) are currently engaged in a systematic propaganda campaign against the American people. It has been ongoing for a number of years. Remember they (the bi-partisan ones) legalized propagandizing the American people. Support our neo-liberal world order or we unleash the fascist, and our neo-liberal order requires empire (I’m sorry, US led globalization). American the exceptional one, MAGA.

  96. Posted December 21, 2020 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    JB, maybe you can help me out. What with your great knowledge of the Russian conspiracy to overthrow our democracy. I was reading at one of the Democratic Party web sites I frequent that OAN is a subsidiary of RT. We know that RT gets some of it funding from the Russian Government. I thought OAN was wholly owned by Herring Networks Inc, which is owned by the US Plutocrat Robert Herring, also the owner of the Wealth Channel.
    Perhaps you know how many other US Plutocrats, and other members and sycophants of the US ruling class are in league with my boss Putin. Vlad is a great believer in compartmentalization, and obviously does not think a useful idiot like myself needs to know about the members of our ruling elite that he is working with. Who else besides Trump, and Herring are working for Putin? Is Mercer a secret Russian agent? How about that one remaining Kock brother, does Vlad have something on him?
    How about Tim Mellon of the Mellon Banking fortune? Kelcy Warren, of Energy Transfers
    o Geoffory Palmer, or Linda McMahon?
    Did these bona fid members of our ruling class each give at least 10 million to the Trump reelection campaign at their puppet masters direction?

  97. Jean Henry
    Posted December 21, 2020 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Wobblie— I absolutely acknowledge that our government has lied and murdered to advance its own aims. But they don’t take out wealthy Americans to do so— certainly not by the thousands by attacking the tallest tower in our most densely populated city to do so. The aim of justification for war could have been achieved any number of ways. Remember that the casualties of 9/11 were much lower than could have been expected because the building imploded in its collapse. That was not predictable.

    The question is why would you ever doubt that US behavior in the Middle East would incite terrorists to attack the twin towers?

    You seem committed to the idea that the only America and Western Europe causes harm and destruction. They certainly cause their share, holding a lot of the power. But your narrative excludes a ny other outcome of analysis. It’s as ideologically grounded as HW’s. Or anyone else’s here.

  98. Posted December 21, 2020 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    JH, I think you have a real problem in understanding who actually was killed on 9-11. I am unaware of a single “wealthy” American who died in that catastrophe. Please share with me the names of the millionaires who were killed on 9-11.
    I believe there is a wealth of information that demonstrates that Saudi Arabia supported the terrorist attack (some of that evidence was presented in trial–required a special law to protect the Saudi’s from the consequence of that trial). I believe there is a wealth of information that demonstrates our government has shielded the Saudi’s from the consequences of this attack. I believe that Israel knew about the attack and probably was instrumental in ensuring that the buildings (including WTC 7 which was not hit by an airplane) collapsed.
    We were cynically propagandized into attacking a country that had zero to do with 9-11. I think you should study how we got into WWI, It is similar to how we invaded Iraq. Poncho Villa engages in a terrorist attack on Columbus NM. We send an army to track him down in Mexico, never catch him (but our ally Obergon eventually murders him), we then use Caranza (leftest President of Mexico) communications with the Kaiser to justify going to war against Germany. It worked even better to start the 21st century. Money has been flowing to the war profiteers ever since.

    ‘You seem committed to the idea that the only America and Western Europe causes harm and destruction.’ Not at all. I know almost everything was developed first in China. Though Western Civilization as championed by the Proud Boys is something that I am inalterably opposed too, think you are too.

  99. Posted December 21, 2020 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    David Angell and his wife Lynne are the only two who I can find who might fit the description of people you seem to think died on Sept. 11. They were on one of the planes, and were not the wealthy financiers who you think died. Rather he was a TV producer going home from vacationing on Cape Cod.

  100. Posted December 21, 2020 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    The rich and powerful are all patriots, and would never do anything in there own self interest, even if it meant hurting the country.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-21/wealthy-americans-fearing-higher-taxes-hurry-to-move-money-now

  101. Posted December 21, 2020 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    The rich and powerful are all patriots, and would never do anything in there own self interest, even if it meant hurting the country.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-21/wealthy-americans-fearing-higher-taxes-hurry-to-move-money-now

    Been investigating why JH seems to think a bunch of wealthy people were killed on 9-11. I finally found one. Gary Lutnick was the younger brother of the CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald (the bank that suffered the most deaths, nearly 20% of all the 911 deaths worked at this bank). I presume that he was a millionaire given his big brothers status.

  102. Anonymous
    Posted December 21, 2020 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    You had me with you right until “I believe that Israel knew about the attack and probably was instrumental in ensuring that the buildings (including WTC 7 which was not hit by an airplane) collapsed.”

  103. Jean Henry
    Posted December 21, 2020 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– I know several people who died on 9-11 and more relatives of people I know,. One was a WCBN DJ and all around awesome person and the rest were in finance from wealthy families. My cousin would have been there but was in a meeting up town and saw the plane hit from those windows. He’s very very welathy, not via my side of the family. Granted, this is to great degree a reflection of my circles of family and friends, but you are simply wrong to think our government would do this in the finance center of NYC when they could have done it in a place like Detroit or Buffalo and had the same excuse for war.

    BTW I’m going along with your belief that a need for justification for war existed, which I’m not sure is the case.

    And you still have not acknowledged that the people who actually did it have acknowledged it and stated their reasoning, which I would think you would see as legitimate. Many do. You have twisted things to fit your belief system but it doesn’t even tie out accepting that as a premise.

    I regret bringing it up. You are hopeless.

  104. Jean Henry
    Posted December 21, 2020 at 2:30 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie– I’m not sure how you interpreted my comments to mean anything but that the wealthy are primarily motivated by self-interest. That has always been my point.

  105. Posted December 21, 2020 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    JH, I have never said that the terrorist did not smash planes into the WTC. I do not believe the fantasy promoted by elements of the Government that it was these planes that caused the WTC I, II and VII to collapse. There is substantial forensic and engineering data that directly refutes the analysis put forward by the NIST. The computer simulation they used to make their finding remains classified, and no other engineering program (with a possible exception of one used at Purdue which has been roundly discredited) has been able to duplicate a symmetrical collapse caused by a-symmetrical damage ( but that is just engineers and architects that question that report).
    There is substantial evidence that Saudi Arabia assisted the hi-jackers, and that our Government assisted some of those Saudi nationals to flea the country in the days after the attack. There is substantial evidence that Israel had fore knowledge of the attack at a minimum. This evidence includes the Mossad agents who filmed the attack, who acknowledged this on TV in Israel, stating “We were there to document the event.” This has been known by most people throughout the world since at least November of 2001 when they were interviewed.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20020802194310/http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html

    I see today where that paragon of law enforcement AG Barr is going after terrorist. Just indicted another Lybian for the Pan Am bombing in 1988. The wheels of justice moves slowly, but inexorably. 32 years and still going after the perpetrators of that massacre. We will still get the others who were involved in 911, the lies and falsehoods cannot be maintained forever.
    Hopeless–no I have great hope and faith.

  106. Lynne
    Posted December 21, 2020 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    I seem to recall a friend who is an architect but also a great admirer and student of Yamasaki explain to me why the buildings collapsed the way they did. It was his opinion that it was because of the building design. I don’t think even many physicists or architects question that the planes caused the building collapse.

  107. Posted December 21, 2020 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    Lynne your friend is obviously smarter than all the experts at NIST who stated,
    “NIST carried its analysis to the point where the buildings reached global instability. At this point, because of the magnitude of deflections and the number of failures occurring, the computer models are not able to converge on a solution…. [W]e are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse.” — p. 3-4, NIST Response to Request for Correction”

    Lynne, three building collapsed, not one. All three collapsed at near free fall into there own footprints. Some how, not explained by the NIST the lower sections of these buildings provided near zero resistance to the collapse of the upper stories. Just keep believing in fantasies, it is so much easier than finding the truth.

    https://www.ae911truth.org/evidence/near-free-fall-acceleration

  108. Posted December 21, 2020 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    My friend Ron Jacobs says.
    Hmmm….
    Last month four star Army General Barry McCaffrey (Ret.) expressed great concern about Trump getting rid of senior Pentagon officials – including his Secretary of Defense – and substituting them with top Trump loyalists. McCaffrey said he was alarmed with the shakeup. “If I was a CIA officer trying to understand what was going on in a third-world country and I saw this pattern of behavior, I would say the strongman’s trying to take over the government and defy an election.”
    Now McCaffrey is sounding the alarm again as of yesterday on reports acting Secretary of Defense Chris Miller has banned Pentagon brass from holding meetings with Biden transition team officials, leaving career military staff “stunned. Pentagon abruptly halts Biden transition — MAKES NO SENSE. CLAIM THEY ARE OVERWHELMED. DOD GOES OPAQUE. TRUMP-MILLER UP TO NO GOOD. DANGER.”
    The only item on Trump’s official schedule today is a meeting with acting Defense Secretary Miller.

  109. John Brown
    Posted December 21, 2020 at 6:46 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie, I don’t think these words mean what you think they do.

    “NIST carried its analysis to the point where the buildings reached global instability. At this point, because of the magnitude of deflections and the number of failures occurring, the computer models are not able to converge on a solution…. [W]e are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse.” — p. 3-4, NIST Response to Request for Correction

  110. Posted December 21, 2020 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Wobblie, each floor of the buildings were essentially of the same structural strength. As the upper floors collapsed upon subsequent lower floors, the weight collapsing upon them was accumulating. That is why the speed off the collapse was near free-fall speed.

    That being said, the official story is bullshit on the face of it.

  111. Posted December 21, 2020 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Heated Oval Office meeting included talk of special counsel, martial law as Trump advisers clash

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/politics/trump-oval-office-meeting-special-counsel-martial-law/index.html

  112. Posted December 21, 2020 at 8:51 pm | Permalink

    iRobert, I know I am an idiot that is why I rely upon others who are smarter. They tell me that the laws of physics say the exact opposite of what you believe. The weight of the buildings under the part of the buildings that was damaged was so great that it should have created resistance, slowing and eventually stopping the collapse. The statement that JB says I don’t understand is NIST response to enquiries of how the buildings fell at near free fall, defying the laws of physics. The essence of that statement is “we have no idea why they fell at free fall speed”.
    Others have identified why they fell at near free fall. Huge sections of the buildings under the damaged sections were obliterated through controlled demolition (in the case of WTC 7. the entire collapse was caused by controlled demolition). The evidence of controlled demolition following the terrorist attack is over whelming. Both chairs of the official 911 Commission don’t believe their own report. The NIST report is a fantasy. The 911 Commission Report is largely a fraud.

    Meanwhile we get half as much in this relieve package as was on the table prior to the election. I suspect this is all we can expect, half as much of everything. But hey I read where that charlatan Osteen got 4.4 million in CARE money–obviously God’s work.

  113. Posted December 21, 2020 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    Other interesting news related to the new covid relieve package–evidently the bill provides tacit approval of Trumps Executive Order gutting civil service protection to whole levels of the Federal Government. That away to go Democrats. Let’s march back to the 19th. century in every way we can think of. MAGA

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress-trump-federal-civil-service/2020/12/21/389812f6-43d7-11eb-975c-d17b8815a66d_story.html

  114. Posted December 21, 2020 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

    Building 7 was a different story than Towers 1 and 2.

    Let’s take the 9/11 discussion to the 9/11 threat, where I’ll explain why the collapse was consistent with what would be expected for building of that design.

    This thread might be best for comments regarding the current crisis regarding the Trump’s attempts to get others to commit sedition and/or treason.

  115. Posted December 21, 2020 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Sorry for not editing my comments before posting. I might start doing that again if we get some commenters here that are worth the effort.

  116. Posted December 21, 2020 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    It might be very important that Trumps EO gutting the civil service goes into effect the day before his first term ends. He has not conceded, there is a WP story today about his plotting a coup last Friday. I don’t know how real any of this is, but everything Hitler did in taking power was “legal”. Could he be planning a “Saturday Night Massacre” though in this case it will be a Tuesday. He could just start firing people until he gets folks who support his take over, and it will all be legal. He’ll double or triple the relieve package and we’ll all wait for the courts to decide. Oh well, the Democrats don’t seem concerned, so I guess I shouldn’t be either.

  117. Posted December 21, 2020 at 10:46 pm | Permalink

    Trump allies planning to contest the certification of the Electoral College vote.
    Are they just pandering to the base, or building the alternative reality necessary to justify their future actions?
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/21/politics/house-conservatives-trump-meeting/index.html

  118. Posted December 21, 2020 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    and then of course the wars just go on and on. Here is the latest report from the WarZone. We have evidently deployed one of our most powerful warships in the Persian Gulf. First time one of these ships has been there since 2012. I guess I have also missed the regular bombardment of the Green Zone in Bagdad. Wars like pandemics become rather mundane after a while–I mean it is all about death and other depressing things.

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/38326/message-to-iran-navy-sends-guided-missile-submarine-on-rare-trip-into-the-persian-gulf

  119. John Brown
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    Are there any modelers reading this that can help Wobblie understand the limited scope of the NIST statement? My semi-educated take is that it only describes the model performance, not the event. They’re saying that they need a bigger computer, that is all.

  120. Lynne
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    That was more or less my take too, JB. But trust me on this. There is no point arguing with a conspiracy theorist about 9/11.

  121. Posted December 22, 2020 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Lynne and JB have both been promoters of the evidence free theory that Trump is a Ruskie agent. Like you say Lynee, it is pointless arguing with conspiracy theorist about Russiagate.

    How about that deal making by St. Nancy? Rejected a 2.2 trillion dollar deal before the election–rejected because it did not include aid for cities and states and provided a business liability shield. Managed to negotiate a deal half as big with chicken feed for cities and states and half as much in individual emergency aid. I suspect Nancy got this totally inadequate package because 1) Nancy has a net worth of 114 million and is clueless about how regular folks get by, 2) Her liberal work from home middle class constituents have actually gotten wealthier during the pandemic (at least according to the NY Times). It is looking very apparent that the Government has opted for another round of disaster capitalism.
    Dylan Ratagan has pointed out the new dynamics that are creating a K shaped economy. Some of us are on a perpetual downward trajectory, while the chosen get to ride upward and upward. The obliteration of small businesses and the immersion of more and more of us into poverty seems to be another example of bipartisanism.

  122. Posted December 22, 2020 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    “The House of Representatives on Monday passed a mammoth 5,593-page tax and spending package that packages together emergency economic relief, government funding and tax cuts. The measure is one of the largest pieces of legislation ever passed by a chamber of Congress.”

    That is nearly 5 times the length of War and Peace. Ever try to read a Federal law? I doubt very much there is a single person in Congress that actually knew the details of what they were voting for. I suspect (like with the CARE Act) we will begin finding out the special favors our legislatures included for the privileged in a month or so. I guess we get to eat cake.

  123. Posted December 22, 2020 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    Read this this morning, seems about right,
    “When I was a kid I was told that leaving a quarter as a tip on a meal was actually more insulting than leaving no tip at all because it meant that they did not forget to leave a tip, it means they deliberately decided to leave you almost nothing. The $600 is not help, it is a message.”

  124. Lynne
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Yeah. I LOVE Pelosi. I don’t think we could have had a better speaker. I still hope she steps aside this year to make room for some new blood.

    It is true that I think Trump is a bit too cozy with Russia. I don’t think he is an agent though. He is more like Gabbard in that he is clearly an asset to them. That is really more of an opinion than anything though. The Mueller report did show Russian interference however, and even though it did not pin anything on Trump, it didn’t exonerate him either. I accept that the burden of proof is on the gov’t here though so I am not angry at Pelosi for not trying to impeach him for anything related to Russian election meddling.

  125. John Brown
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    The recent suggestion that the Pentagon reactivate General Flynn to active duty status and court-martial him for treason might shake a few trees. Oh well, justice moves slowly, I’m told…

  126. Posted December 22, 2020 at 12:25 pm | Permalink

    JB, Gen.Honoré demonstrated he is fairly competent, and I really like Col. Wilkerson, both of whom have brought up your suggestion. The current acting Defense Sec. is a Trump sychophant. The Generals around the Pentagon are not going to jeopardize their futures as Board Members of Defense contractors. We will probably have to root for a cardiac incident if we want justice anytime soon.

  127. Sad
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    My sibling has four children

    Their household will get $3600

    Not bad

  128. Lynne
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    That is good, sad. It is households with children that need the money the most. I don’t need the money at all so like last time, I will donate most of it and then reward myself by buying books from independent bookstores (who need the business) with the rest of it.

  129. Posted December 22, 2020 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Thought you might like this Lynme

    https://www.reclaimthefight.com/2020/12/not-just-six-hundred-dollars-emergency.html?m=1

    Not just six hundred dollars: The emergency COVID bill contains hundreds of billions in aid to individuals
    Monday, December 21, 2020

    Yes, a one-time $600 payment is inadequate. Yes, extending the eviction moratorium for only a month is anxiety-inducing. Yes, having no direct assistance to state, cities, and Native American tribal governments is a broken promise.

    Both President-elect Biden and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi made it clear that the compromise emergency COVID package Congress is getting ready to pass (Is Now Passed) cannot be viewed as completed work but only as a down payment.

    Be that as it may, the paltry nature of a $600 survival direct payment has taken over the coverage of the coronavirus relief package at the expense of the very real individual benefits that Democrats were able to negotiate in the package, and it should not be.
    Here is what you get, in addition to the one-time $600 payment, depending on your situation.

    If you are unemployed, not only have your unemployment benefits been extended until March, you will also get a $300/week enhancement to unemployment benefits for 11 weeks. That is $1,300 a month on top of your standard unemployment benefit. That comes in at a total of $166 billion.

    If you work for small businesses, you might be able to receive your full paycheck even if the business cannot
    MORE…

    If you rent or pay a mortgage, you cannot be evicted for nonpayment. The eviction moratorium set to expire at the end of this month has been extended to January 31. If you are having a hard time affording rent, a $25 billion fund has been secured to help you pay rent.

    If you are food insecure, Democrats have secured a $13 billion increase in SNAP funding.

    If you have a child in school or are in school yourself, you may be interested to know that $82 billion is being set aside to help schools and colleges reopen safely.

    If you are worried about hospital bills, this bill ends surprise medical billing, requiring that get a “true and honest cost estimate” 3 days before any scheduled procedure and that billing disputes would be subject to arbitration.

    If you take public transit, your local transit agency can get part of the $14 billion set aside to keep the buses, light rails, and commuter trains running.

    If you are having trouble affording Broadband internet so you can work or attend school from home, this bill creates a $7 billion fund to help you pay for it.

    If you drive, there is $10 billion to maintain highways.

    And if you are planning on getting the coronavirus vaccine at some point? There is $68 billion in this package for vaccine distribution and $20 billion to make sure no one has to pay a penny to receive it.

    Last but not least, let’s be crystal clear that there would be no relief bill at all – that means zero direct payment, no extended unemployment, no paychecks if your employer is a small business affected by the pandemic, no eviction moratorium, no SNAP expansion, at all, had the Democratic leadership not lined up behind a bipartisan, bicameral group of legislators (including Republicans willing to buck their party leadership) who stepped forward to break a logjam that lasted the full human gestation period. Republicans were so ready to leave town with nothing …

    Would more be better? Of course. As Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi have made clear, once Biden and Vice President-elect Harris have been sworn in, they and Congressional Democrats will push for more relief and stimulus.

    We will need that, and it will completely change the dynamic in Congress if Jon Osoff and Rev. Rafael Warnock were to replace Trumpian hacks David Purdue and Kelly Loeffler in the Senate. ..
    MORE….

    T

  130. Posted December 22, 2020 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    This is what I have been able to find out about the 900 billion dollar package. I keep looking to see if the missing 260 billion is going to States and Municipalities, does anyone know?

    900 billion
    -330 million Americans x $600= 198 billion
    unemployment insurance 166 billion
    rent and mortgage assistance 25 billion
    SNAP food assistance 13 billion
    Assistance to Schools 82 billion
    Mass transit assistance 14 billion
    Internet assistance 7 billion
    Highway assistance 10 billion
    Covid vaccine distribution 68 billion
    Covid vaccine assistance 20 billion
    Small business assistance 20 billion
    Live venue assistance 15 billion (I suspect the big players will gobble up most of
    this money).
    638 billion

    Can’t seem to find out where the other 260 billion is going

  131. Sad
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 2:02 pm | Permalink

    Race horse owners

    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a35037514/covid-relief-bill-tax-break-racehorse/

  132. Posted December 22, 2020 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Found another 10 billion. This going to the Army Corps. of Engineers for flood control.
    But more importantly, tucked away some where deep in the bowls of the bill was the provision lifting little-known criminal penalties for minor violations, including the transportation of the water hyacinths and the use of the Swiss coat of arms. The section also decriminalizes the unauthorized application of theft prevention decals or devices, and the unauthorized use of the 4-H Club emblem, the “Smokey Bear” character, the “Woodsy Owl” character or “The Golden Eagle Insignia.”

    I always wondered why we never displayed our Swiss family coat of arms.

  133. John Brown
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    “Wokey the Bear” of “Only you can resist fascist liars” fame, better lay low or risk Gitmo.

    Of local importance the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative (GLRI) was elevated to $330 for 2021. A lot of that goes to regional marine contractors and soft money scientists.

  134. John Brown
    Posted December 22, 2020 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    $330 Million.

  135. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 4:56 am | Permalink

    Lynne,

    1) The mueller report showed $5k-$100k worth of social mrdia ads were taken out by a Russian troll farm. The Russian’s responsible wanted to defend themselves in court but we dropped the case against them.

    2) The report used intentionally vague language regarding the POSSIBILITY that Russia hacked the DNC. Later Crowdstrike CEO explained in EXPLICIT and clear terms that we do not have direct evidence that Russia hacked the DNC.

    That’s it. Those were the 2 prongs of the investigation.

    However, the Mueller report revealed a lot of other things to those paying attention. You were obviously not paying attention…..

  136. Lynne
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    Yes, wobblie, I did like that take on the stimulus.

    FF, and by ‘pay attention’ I assume you mean ‘find some batshit crazy bullshit in superfluous details’

  137. Lynne
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    I found myself in agreement with Trump this morning which shocked me. Then I saw Pelosi agrees with him too! And AOC and Rashida Tlaib! I checked wunderground.com and Hell is only barely frozen over.

    https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1341557535732604935?fbclid=IwAR1FR9QsYxUFQ7PWwec2UrvhcTzs4cdjjGON1LMFavuywuimRicki77hctk

  138. Posted December 23, 2020 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Let’s see, Rashida Talib (I have more and respect for her all the time) and Tulsi Gabbard both voted against the stimulus bill–both believed it was an insult to the American people. Trump has called the “bi=partisan” deal a disgrace and has indicated he might veto.
    It seems like there is a “bi-partisan” consensus that the new package is a disgraceful insult. That away to go St. Nancy
    Now if only Rashia decides to “#force the vote” on Medicare4all, we might actually begin pushing the rock of mendacity called the Democratic Party to do something for the people.

  139. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 8:41 am | Permalink

    Lynne,

    You did a good job of not letting “superfluous” details penetrate your dense skull and yet you displayed the ability to absorb (and parrot) one of the most non-sensical messages of the report. How does the language of “he was not exonerated”, which you just parroted, make any sense?

  140. Lynne
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    FF, if you do not understand the difference between not being found guilty and being exonerated, I can’t help you.

    Wobblie, it was dumb to vote against the bill but I imagine that Tlaib was able to do it because she knew it would pass. Still, the $600 will go far with her constituents who as a group actually really need it and I am not sure it was responsible for her to risk them getting nothing (which is what the House Republicans wanted.)

  141. Posted December 23, 2020 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    There are more than 30 million Americans who want to work but for whom there are no jobs. Over 800.000 new applications for unemployment benefits were filed last week. That is on top of the 850000 the week before. Of the 30 plus million who are unemployed, less than a third will actually receive benefits (currently only about 7 million are actually getting a check). Those 30 million plus who have lost their jobs, also lost their employer (most of these workers were probably not getting any health insurance from their employers since many were sellf-employed or worked for small businesses that did not provide health insurance) provided health care.
    If the Democrats can’t get behind Medicare for All during a pandemic that caused over 400000 deaths, and who knows how many hospitalizations, then what the fucking good are they.
    Demand that Pelosi bring Medicare for All to a vote. She is the only reason that we are not getting a vote. Let’s see if Democrats really give a shit about the people. I mean she was able to move a 5 trillion dollar give away last spring in near record time–it is possible if there is the will

  142. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exoneration

    It’s almost like Lynne is guilty about of not know what words mean in a given context.

    #superfluousdetails

  143. Posted December 23, 2020 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    FF, I know you are a big fan of people defending their reputations in court (ala Sandamann). How much do you think Croomer is going to collect from Trump, Newsmax and OAN? Inciting death threats is probably worth more than being stared at.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2020/12/22/president-trump-campaign-newsmax-oan-face-defamation-lawsuit/4019954001/

  144. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Elections and legal proceedings are unfolding more like narratives these days so Coomer could get anywhere between $0 and $100m, I guess. What Sandmann, Rittenhouse or Coomer get from lawsuits is arbitrarily connected to the truth, at this point.

    Narrative is King.

  145. Posted December 23, 2020 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    I didn’t know Rittenhouse was suing some one. What is his cause of action and who are the defendants? I’ll have to look and see if incarcerated folks can receive judgements. I know when they locked up my neighbor (Kircher) they took everything he had to pay for his prosecution and imprisonment. i know they don’t let incarcerated profit from selling their stories.

  146. Posted December 23, 2020 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    FF, Usually it is the victims of crimes that receive civil judgements I know in Trump’s America it is a given that the “right” kind of politically connected criminals escape criminal justice, but we can still hold people accountable in civil court.

    https://news.yahoo.com/blackwater-guards-trump-pardoned-were-131513384.html

    “I represented Ali’s and five other families in a civil lawsuit against Blackwater and Erik Prince for the killings. Ali was sitting in the back seat of his father’s SUV with two of his cousins. Blackwater riddled the car with bullets.

    None of the victims had weapons. They were all shot and killed or wounded in their cars. Blackwater had disobeyed a directive to stay in the Green Zone. Instead, they entered Nisour Square, blocked traffic, and began firing into the cars of innocent civilians.

    The FBI investigated the shooting. It was the FBI’s largest and most expensive criminal investigation since 9/11. The investigation was a joint effort by both the FBI and its counterpart in Iraq.

    Nicholas Slattan was convicted of murder and sentenced to life. The others were convicted of manslaughter and weapons charges and sentenced to 20 years.

    I was quoted in @WSJ the day of the convictions that my clients, who were still citizens of Iraq, were certainly pleased to know the men accused of killing their family members had been brought to justice. I am equally certain they feel the US government has let them down today.”

  147. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    I misspoke by including Rittenhouse’s in that class, obviously. Legal proceedings are more about narratives at this point….

    You seem overly desperate to be right about things. You should have more confidence because you are right about some stuff.

    Why do you always change the subject? I was talking about the concept of exoneration. Your failure to confront things directly makes you look weak, imo.

  148. Wobblie
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    FF, being a low class dolt in a class riddled culture kinda breeds insecurity, dont cha know. I didnt realize you had misspoke about Rittenhouse. I thought pointing out Trumps recent pardons were close to your discussion. I understand the concept of exoneration—not being held to account or having your transgressions pardoned ie, forgiven, is actually better because you get away with causing evil (as if I really believe our criminal statutes are the limits to morality).

  149. Lynne
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 2:56 pm | Permalink

    I imagine that Meuller was using the word in this sense. His point was that the report did not, as Trump claimed, absolve him from blame. But thanks for the laugh, FF. The very idea of YOU of all people mansplaining word meanings to me is hilarious! I am sure I am not the only person who can see how foolish you are!

    iɡˈzänəˌrāt/
    ex·on·er·ate
    verb
    past tense: exonerated; past participle: exonerated
    1.
    (especially of an official body) absolve (someone) from blame for a fault or wrongdoing, especially after due consideration of the case.
    “they should exonerate these men from this crime”

  150. Posted December 23, 2020 at 3:14 pm | Permalink

    Lynne and JH, Interesting survey on how Democratic Congress folks in swing districts performed over the last decade. Interesting that those who co-sponsored Medicare for All and supported Black Life’s Matter did much better than moderate clintonite Dems.

    https://portside.org/2020-12-22/no-co-sponsor-medicare-all-has-lost-reelection-past-decade-even-gop-leaning-districts?fbclid=IwAR0A4-nYu0doLsoEbN5ZFxaU1speQRGnUbRUbviwzUm9wgWv5iAcLteI1E8

  151. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 4:16 pm | Permalink

    Was Trump accused of colluding with Russia? Yes. Was there evidence of Trump colluding? No. Short of evidence Trump is exonerated from the accusation and if you were paying attention to the details you would know that all of your slime ball heroes admit the same—when they are under oath. You want to participate in a word game which only makes sense if you first turn the American legal system on its head.

    #scummylynne

  152. Sad
    Posted December 23, 2020 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    FF why didn’t you run away with HW after a Trump lost?

  153. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 24, 2020 at 5:21 am | Permalink

    Imo you have a knack for asking uninteresting questions.

  154. Posted December 24, 2020 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Quid pro quo:

    Justice Department investigating potential presidential pardon bribery scheme, court records reveal

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/presidential-pardon-justice-department/index.html

  155. John Brown
    Posted December 24, 2020 at 8:36 am | Permalink

    Agent oranges entire “presidency” is evidence of ruskie stoogery. Helsinki, bounties on troops, Alaskan waters intrusions, deflecting for hack attack. Dumb fuckers covering for him are every bit as much traitors.

  156. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 24, 2020 at 9:52 am | Permalink

    Oh J Bro,

    3 of 4 pieces of evidence provided are not evidence for your lol claim.

  157. Posted December 24, 2020 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Would one of the Nancy Pelosi partisans, or perhaps iRobert explain to me her latest strategy. Bringing the $2000 dollar amendment up solely for a unanimous consent vote guarantied its failure as it would only take a single members objection to defeat the motion.

    It seems like a roll call vote with Democratic support would have guarantied its passage–thus forcing the two Republican Senators currently campaigning for re-election to choose either sticking with McConnel, or joining Trump and the Democrats in the Senate. If they went with Trump–Pence breaks the tie and we each get at least $2000.

    It was a WIN WIN situation and Pelosi fucked us again. That away to go Nancy.

  158. Jean Henry
    Posted December 25, 2020 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    House vote on stand alone $2000 payments is Monday, Wobblie.
    What am I missing?

  159. Wobblie
    Posted December 25, 2020 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    JH a stand alone bill exerts no pressure on any Republican or Democrat who tucked something away in the 900 billion package. What am I missing JH? All Nancy is doing is directing a kabuki theater. What am I my missing? If it was an amendment to the 900 billion I think McConnell would have had to vote on it. As a stand alone bill it can collect dust along with the bill passed last spring.
    I always thought politics was about bringing pressure and forcing compromise. The Dems once again cave and decide to play soft ball.

  160. Jean Henry
    Posted December 26, 2020 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    So you are upset that concessions made to pass the entire package and unrelated to the $2000/mo won’t be addressed and don’t really care about the $2000 per person payout?

    You sound just like the Republicans.

    I’m not crazy about pork barrel spending or giant financial gifts to Israel either, but I understand that’s part of what gets us to a deal. It is possible to be critical of each and every bill that goes through the process of getting ratified in the democratic process. The process, when functioning correctly, ensures that no one gets exactly what they want, so each bill that passes into law will be flawed from any given perspective. Do you really think Nancy could have passed a more progressive bill through Congress than she got?

  161. Wobblie
    Posted December 26, 2020 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

    JH, what makes you think for a moment that the process is functioning correctly. Compromise now only means screw the poor. Nothing new here we’re getting back to normal. A more “Progressive” bill? More generous, yes. Trump had been saying since before the election he wanted a richer payment—Pelosi and the Democrats should be pushing that onto McConnel’s desk—
    Pelosi will get her stand alone bill on Monday, and that will be the end of that. Will Trump exercise a pocket veto on the 900 billion? Would not surprise me, his last act and all.
    If the Democrats win both Senate seats in Georgia the Democrats will have to do better. Do you think the way Pelosi is handling this is improving Democratic chances in Georgia or harming?

  162. Anonymous
    Posted December 27, 2020 at 6:37 am | Permalink

    Helping.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/12/trump-coup-attempt-could-cost-gop-senate.html

  163. Wobblie
    Posted December 27, 2020 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    Like always some one smarter than me can articulate my thoughts better

    https://www.salon.com/2020/12/26/lost-in-the-middle-will-the-arrogant-certainty-of-centrism-destroy-america/?fbclid=IwAR0rO4A1YWenx8v3u03BuIxCDKCr8qcSGNypNVaowF5BMkQAuRog4-zAVoQ

  164. Wobblie
    Posted December 27, 2020 at 8:56 am | Permalink

    https://scontent.fdet1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/133723357_1035223553630136_650331967213372833_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ca434c&efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&_nc_ohc=WJbBlEvpymYAX-_3y4K&_nc_ht=scontent.fdet1-1.fna&tp=14&oh=e169f5a8d4bccaf60b5bf796286aac15&oe=600F9D83

  165. Posted December 27, 2020 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Trump said he could kill someone and he wouldn’t lose any of his voters. He’s done better than that – 340,000 times better.

    I do hope he does start shooting people in the middle of Fifth Avenue. Maybe he can start with Mike Pence or Bill Barr.

    Trump 2024!

  166. John Brown
    Posted December 27, 2020 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Fashy Flake admits to evidence for agent oranges ruskie stoogery. It’s a Christmas miracle.

  167. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 27, 2020 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    Fake John Brown,

    You have absorbed the mainstream narrative that blames Russia for everything and you seem to think you are some sort of vanguard revolutionary. LOL. You are a tool that has volunteered with zeal to go to the front. Front line tool. LOL

    Two things can be true at once. 1)Russia is not and should not be our bff. 2) “Russia Russia Russia” is a sleight of hand narrative which has been pushed to appeal to tools exactly like you.

    The reason I said 3 of 4 pieces of “evidence” you offered does not support your claim is because I am only familiar with 3 out 4 of your references. I don’t know much of anything about the Russian violations in Alaskan waters. Maybe it happened I don’t know.

    In my opinion your fixation on Russia (who should not be our BFF) makes you look like a dipshit who should have laid off of Maddow and Maynard.

    I am embarrassed for you. I think there is a part of you that knows what I say is true. I actually think I could prove it with one word. Two words combined actually. If I said that word it would shut you up forever.

    You are like the real John Brown though. Sure you are. Sure you are.

  168. Lynne
    Posted December 27, 2020 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    If progressives don’t like it that we have a centrist Democrat as president, they should get busy. They should start running for local elections. They should start getting out the vote for the midterm primaries. Maybe do some fundraising to combat the corporate money sure to be in national races.

  169. Wobblie
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Thanks for those words of wisdom Lynne, I know I never would have thought of that.

    The return to normalcy, where we have a bi-partisan agreement to screw the poor. How smart was that —putting in an 11 week extension to unemployment benefits—-but only if Trump signed it within 7 days, otherwise only 10 weeks. Has Pelosi never heard the word “retroactive”,

  170. Wobblie
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Ive heard of “go-fund” me pages. Facebook beggers are new to me. I,ve got folks on the Michigan UI help page I frequent soliciting for gas money, or cans and bottles so the can pay for their cell phones. The slow witted like me might think $ 600 dollars is quite the insult to those folks. But I guess I should be happy for them. Most of the desperate are mud folks I guess, so its ok to fashion compromises on their needs—it is good to know that our betters thought about those on the bottom.

    https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2020/04/majority-of-lawmakers-millionaires/

  171. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    “If progressives don’t like it that we have a centrist Democrat as president, they should get busy. They should start running for local elections. They should start getting out the vote for the midterm primaries. Maybe do some fundraising to combat the corporate money sure to be in national races.”—Lynne

    Lynne with another golden gem of a comment . We are all blessed that Lynne is willing to write such things on this forum. Her willingness provides crystal clear sneak peeks into the soul of the Dems. It ain’t pretty.

  172. Jean Henry
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Wobblie– it stuns me that what you think is preventing caring for those most in need in this country is a lack of will. It’s like you think righteous indignation wins legislative victories. What’s most frustrating is that you seem to that Dem reps and their supporters don’t care about the poor or they would wave a magic wand and fix this. Instead you back ineffectual legislators who make stump speeches instead of meaningful change. IS the pace of change inadequate? Absolutely. Have we lost way too much ground since Reagan? Obviously. But what is seizing our government from functionality is not just moneyed influence but the populist partisan divisiveness that has risen up in its wake. The American people and so the politicians seem to care more about taking principled stands than effective governance. That is a disaster for progressive change.

    The nature of democracy is that is requires compromise. It stuns me that someone who has dedicated much of his life to the value of collective bargaining does not understand this reality.

    What system would you like to see in place where change can happen at the pace you feel is necessary?

  173. Lynne
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    Wobblie, and yet you like to whine here all the time about how others should do the work. And when they do the work, you dismiss it. I think the only good response to that is a reminder that no one else is going to do the work. There is a lot of whining among the progressive wing of the party that often goes along the lines of “Democrats need to….” which seems helpless to me. Who do these people think “Democrats” are?

  174. Wobblie
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    I guess I should have faith. After all Biden is ensuring that the architect of mass incarceration and the elimination of Social Security (Aid for families with dependent children) will be in charge of fashioning legislation that will enshrine the return to normalcy.

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/12/22/biden-taps-bruce-reed-deficit-hawk-and-longtime-enemy-social-security-deputy-chief?utm_campaign=echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0e2WGjDCJ1EeMFviEVyILD95XMn6JiycJ9W_iD2Xnid2dVsJK9xWunXwQ#Echobox=1608672168

  175. Lynne
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    JH, he expects progressive outcomes without doing the work.

    There is just no acknowledgment that we have to work with the Congress we have, not the one we wish we had but also that we need to work HARD to get as good of a Congress as we possibly can. Turns out whining about HRC rigging elections doesn’t do much. But we can work now on the 2022 midterms because the more progressive that body is, the more progressive legislation we will see.

  176. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 28, 2020 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    I listen to what Cassandra says but I don’t believe her.

  177. Sad
    Posted December 29, 2020 at 1:37 am | Permalink

    Good on Bernie Sanders!

  178. Posted January 4, 2021 at 7:50 am | Permalink

    Trump pressured Georgia’s secretary of state to ‘find’ votes

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/jan/04/donald-trump-georgia-votes-joe-biden-brad-raffensperger-senate-covid-coronavirus-us-politics-live

  179. Demetrius
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Are we still pretending this is all just normal “politics?”

    Detroit News: Extraordinary warning to Trump by 10 former Pentagon chiefs

    “In an extraordinary rebuke of President Donald Trump, all 10 living former secretaries of defense cautioned Sunday against any move to involve the military in pursuing claims of election fraud, arguing that it would take the country into “dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory.”

    The 10 men, both Democrats and Republicans, signed on to an opinion article published in The Washington Post that implicitly questioned Trump’s willingness to follow his Constitutional duty to peacefully relinquish power on Jan. 20. Following the Nov. 3 election and subsequent recounts in some states, as well as unsuccessful court challenges, the outcome is clear, they wrote, while not specifying Trump in the article. …”

    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/03/extraordinary-warning-trump-10-former-pentagon-chiefs/4123987001/

  180. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    It falls in the legal realm for some in the realm of politics for others.

  181. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Others are just trying to do what gives them the best odds of staying out of prison.

  182. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    FF — and if the ‘political’ is also illegal, does that matter?

    Please tell us what you think of Trump’s call.

  183. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

    Does what matter?

    I would like to hear the whole call. If Trump is “shaking down” a SOS for votes that is problematic or even illegal. If Trump is explaining that a 12k difference could easily be overturned then that would just be responding for the excuse that has been used over and over. That excuse reads something like “yeah there may have been some fraud but not enough to overturn the results”.

  184. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    ‘Zero evidence of fraud ‘ FF. No one has suggested anything out of the ordinarily and no prior election has been more scrutinized or court reviewed.

  185. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

    The entire tape is available at WaPo. Go for it.

    Had a losing Dem candidate been caught soliciting vote tampering from a Dem SOS, I’m guessing your position would be different.

    Ps a criminal referral was just made to Christopher Wray by congressional Dems.

  186. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Why do you think they tabulated votes in the middle of night in Georgia after telling people no more ballots would be counted? If it was all legit then a forensic analysis of the ballots should not be a big deal right? If the perception is that the election was not legit then we should want to double check things in a **substantial** way right? I assume you are in favor of auditing the ballots ran through tabulation machines in the middle of the night, in Fulton county, right?

  187. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    My questions above are not rhetorical. Please treat them as real questions. Why do you think, in the middle of the night, in Fulton County, 5 people tabulated ballots with nobody around? Is that standard?

  188. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Who cares when the ballots were counted? Only someone who is as much of a sore loser as Trump! I am sure there is some GA election law that stipulates how many should be in the room as the ballots are being counted. I am not sure 5 is an unreasonable number. And I say this giving FF the benefit of the doubt that the ballots were indeed counted in the middle of the night by five people even though he doesn’t have the integrity to deserve it. (i.e. there is a high chance that isn’t what happened and he is just being a liar like his hero)

  189. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Wow.

    So, Lynne has just exposed herself as being LOL extremely low info.

    Would Lynne be ok if Trump and Pence tabulated votes, in the middle of the night, when nobody was around, besides the two of them? Duh. Duh. Duh. Duh x1000!

    You people can’t possibly be this stupid.

  190. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    It is true that I do not know much about Georgia election law but my guess is that having the candidates in the race count the votes without witnesses would not be allowed even while vote counting by as few as 5 people (I could see some rule that required two Dems, two Republicans, and an independent to be present but I don’t actually know if that is a rule in GA) is allowed. I doubt there are rules related to the time of day the votes are counted. Here is the thing, enough experts have looked at all of the state elections and found no major violations of the rules or more than the usual amount of individual cases of fraud. We can reasonably conclude that the election was fair even if we personally cannot count the ballots. So whatever the rules are in Georgia, they were not violated. Even if some ballots got counted at night by a small group of people.

  191. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 6:39 pm | Permalink

    “No one has suggested anything out of the ordinarily”—JH

    I was pointing out something that might be considered “out of the ordinary”. The time of day is not important. It was reported by witnesses under oath and by abc news at the time that tabulation was going to cease and would resume at 8am. Those 5 people tabulated votes for 2 hours into the night alone. They did not even have a state board of elections monitor present. The question is about perception. Is it reasonable for millions of people to perceive this as “out of the ordinary”. Is it normal? Yes or no? Is it reasonable to think it was abnormal? Yes or no?

  192. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2021 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    If it is reasonable to find it out of the ordinary the. How do we restore confidence in the processes taken in Fulton county for example?

    Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

  193. Posted January 4, 2021 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    While Trump tries to subvert the Constitution, he once again has allowed an alien invasion that could be more deadly than the current deadly invasion. The new UK variety has already been found in several states, but thanks to his administrations ineptitude we are doing nothing to stop the spread of this new variant. The South African variant maybe even worse than the UK one.
    Here is a good article on the ramifications of this new strain.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/12/virus-mutation-catastrophe/617531/?fbclid=IwAR1QaHIxowdS05hS2IjCeDCVsUVQCsNnWcSwDqwaxE74dszExTrfrn1jWj8

  194. Posted January 4, 2021 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/4/s-africa-covid-variant-more-infectious-than-uk-strain-minister

    Meanwhile there are 25 flights a day from Cape Town to New York.

  195. Posted January 4, 2021 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    I know iRobert thinks JH was baiting me about 911. She probably is, but I am going to rise to the bait. January 2021 is going have a number of exciting events occurring. One of which will be the final proceedings in the Military Tribunal trial of Abu Zubaydah the alleged mastermind of the attacks.

    This is an excellent article on that trial, and its consequences for the official 911 Commission Report. That report of course relied quite heavily on the information obtained from Zubaydah through torture.

    https://digwithin.net/2020/01/25/gitmo/

  196. Sam S
    Posted January 11, 2021 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Really? Some politicians file suit and because they lost they are guilty of sedition.

  197. Posted January 12, 2021 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    Jean knows almost nothing about the circumstances surrounding the 9/11 attacks,Wobblie, and has absolutely no interest in any of it. It’s unlikely a person who doesn’t know anything on any particular topic would bait you into an exchange demonstrating their lack of knowledge.

  198. Posted January 12, 2021 at 12:45 am | Permalink

    Sam S: “Really? Some politicians file suit and because they lost they are guilty of sedition.”

    No, stupid. Try to pay attention. Do you share Trump’s attention deficit disorder?

  199. Posted January 12, 2021 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    iRobert I know JH let’s her knee jerk liberalism get in the way of constructive dialogue. But like with HW, I am unwilling to let my fellow citizens be trapped by their illusions. This latest over the 14th. Amendment is a typical example. I of course did not think of the idea–to slow witted to come up with that myself. David Broder the long time NY Times columnist floated the idea last Friday on PBS.

    Of course the Democrats will continue to hide behind the myth that they can only do something if they have 2/3rds or more majority. I am all for having as much consensus as possible—but we live in a democracy where majority rules, not minorities enabled by gutless self-serving politicians..

    It seems obvious that the Pelosi wing of the party just wants to get rid of Trump–she does not seem to mind his cabal of enablers and co-conspirators being the “loyal” opposition.

  200. Posted January 12, 2021 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    And then again maybe they are just too scared to think straight. I see where that great Democratic Senator Joe Manchin has come out against impeachment.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/democrats-briefed-plot-overthrow-government_n_5ffd29a4c5b691806c4bf199?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kZW1vY3JhdGljdW5kZXJncm91bmQuY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJdBWBuIsHVuptetzDYrArSOKXSFmyIIXGQdfpQW0dkLjC8JhqL4eBhEP2D81OXXUcbjRHDyBbUbd8XRazLhOgm73uQhqrPBlZCJuGb2e8QeY-bBtYoMUwiFIGNHU81XmRA27n1vKKDHioP9sc5P3p33pWhjjxLP23g5xpBFt3J4

  201. Posted January 12, 2021 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    I’d like to see the quality of the discourse here improve, now that the most obnoxious trolls have run away. There’s a chance normal people might discover this blog and decide to comment.

    So far we’ve only gotten Sam S., who doesn’t understand it’s the promoting of debunked fraud claims which is sedition. Naturally if public officials tell their constituents there has been a coup by fraud those constituents are going to react in the extreme.

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