Today, as deadly wildfires raged on the west coast, Joe Biden released a statement saying, “The science is clear, and deadly signs like these are unmistakable — climate change poses an imminent, existential threat to our way of life.” Donald Trump, in California to survey the damage, chose not to blame climate change, but the failure of our western states to properly manage their forests, removing fallen trees that, according to him, can just “explode.” This isn’t anything new for Trump, who has claimed in the past that fires like these could be stopped if only states raked their forests more aggressively, apparently not understanding that we’re talking about millions of acres of forest, a vast majority of which isn’t owed by individual states, but by the federal government, which he happens to preside over.
I shouldn’t have to say this, but our problem isn’t that the liberals in California didn’t rid their forests of exploding trees. No, the problem is that this has been the hottest summer ever recorded in the northern hemisphere, and, as a result, our forests are drier, and more susceptible to burning. It is simply a fact that climate change has more than doubled the number of large fires in the western U.S. since 1984, and all the climate denying in the world cannot change that… Are there forest management practices that might mitigate the effects of climate change to some extent? I’m sure there are. But that’s not the core issue. The core issue is that our forests have grown progressively drier due to climate change, and, as a result, a good portion of our country is on fire right now, as Donald Trump and the Republicans continue to lie about what’s happening.
Donald Trump said today, “I don’t think science knows actually,” when talking about the west coast fires. Joe Biden responded like you would expect a President of the United States to respond. “Science knows,” he said. And he’s absolutely right. We know exactly what’s happening and why. It’s not a mystery. We’ve known for decades. We’ve just refused to take action because too many people — like those in the very lucrative oil and gas industry — have had too much to lose, and because people who hold elected office aren’t incentivized to take bold (and costly) action when the positive results of said action likely won’t be seen for decades. So, as a result, we’ve continued to kick the can down he road for someone else to deal with. And now the world is literally on fire.
It’s not as striking as footage of the orange sky over Portland, but I thought the following clip pretty well summed up where were we are as a nation right now.
And in the fourth year of the climate change denying president’s term, baseball players were forced to play in smoke-filled empty stadiums wearing masks because of wildfires and his refusal to deal with a pandemic that has killed 200,000 Americans https://t.co/3Aqtq4iuAI
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) September 15, 2020
In spite of everything we see unfolding around us, there are still some, like Donald Trump, who would deny the reality of what we’re observing. Thankfully, though, we don’t need everyone. All we need is enough to put Biden in office and change the composition of the Senate. And we have that within our grasp. It won’t be easy, but we’ve actually got a shot come Election Day, thanks to everyone over the past several decades who helped push Biden and the Democratic Party to where they are today, to elect a political party into power that champions science, calls for environmental justice, and promises to enact a Green New Deal.
The choice could not be more clear, America.
On one hand, we have the “climate arsonist” Donald Trump:
President Trump, at today's wildfires briefing: "It'll start getting cooler. You just watch."
Wade Crowfoot, California Secretary for Natural Resources: "I wish science agreed with you."
President Trump: "Well, I don't think science knows actually." pic.twitter.com/EEbhUvdPVT
— The Recount (@therecount) September 14, 2020
And on the other we have Joe “Science Knows” Biden:
Do the right thing, America. This very well may be our last chance.
170 Comments
Maybe Trump can order tanker aircraft to dump gasoline on the fires, staying true to form.
A notorious climate denier just hired as NOAAs top climate deputy. Looks like “public health informed” is coming to climate change. So be ready for a deliberately worsened for catastrophe.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/09/13/noaa-hires-david-legates-climate/
Here is good news for all you folks who think two choices are more than enough.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/14/wisconsin-supreme-court-keeps-green-party-off-ballot-absentee-ballots-mailed-on-time/5796737002/
If Biden looses Wisconsin now, Who are we going to scape goat?
Scientific American has never endorsed a presidential candidate in our 175-year history—until now.
The 2020 election is literally a matter of life and death. We urge you to vote for health, science and Joe Biden for President.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientific-american-endorses-joe-biden/
No one was scapegoated, wobblie. Anyone who voted for the GP in 2016 is partly responsible for the Trump outcome of that election. If you voted for anyone other than HRC in 2016 or didn’t vote, you are partly responsible for the outcome which includes things like children in cages, genocide in the form of forced hysterectomies, 200k dead from COVID, etc and so on. Elections have consequences. I get it that you don’t want to accept your part in getting Trump elected but some of us know full well that you are part of why he is office.
I can only hope that they will not make the same mistake this time. If they do, I guess I will just have to accept that our democracy is likely to die entirely, that climate change is going to continue, that our economy might be in trouble, etc. I am so happy I don’t have kids. I think most likely, with my privilege, I will be able to live a mostly happy life for the remainder of my years if I survive the COVID, civil unrest, and climate change weather events and fires.
The air quality index yesterday in Seattle was 300. Portland is still up in that range. Over a week now of smoke. It is just hanging in the air.
I was driving across the I 90 floating bridge yesterday and coming out of the tunnel on the Seattle side heading west toward the Mt Baker tunnel was downright spooky. You could see about a quarter mile of bridge, but everything past that and on the sides was completely shrouded in smoke.
https://www.iqair.com/earth?nav
I have been thinking alot lately about the conversation I am certain is going to happen a few decades now with my daughter. The question will be “what did you do to try and prevent the mess we are in when there was still time?” and I don’t have an answer. I’m burning fossil fuels just as much as Trumpers. I am consuming and creating trash at the same rate. I’d like to think that the only way to deal with the environmental destruction is through policy changes, but it is becoming clearer that what is needed are drastic changes to how we all live…. changes that no one is going to make willingly.
I discovered recently that the recycling of plastics is not working. There are only a handful of plastic types that have any recycle value. The rest are just left in fields in Thailand, Vietnam, China, etc where they are burned or work their way into the watershed and out into the ocean. China won’t even take our recycled plastic anymore, so now the plastics industry is trying to find some African country to dump our garbage and keep pretending everything is ok. Will probably be the same countries where they enslave African boys to pick cocoa beans to supply our insatiable appetite for the stuff with no consideration for the conditions that produced it.
We are a bunch of jackasses.
Yeah, I got a lot of guff from some folks for not recycling plastics. I figured it was best to put them in a landfill here rather than ship them to be landfilled somewhere else, where regulations for landfills might be lax. Much like the TSA, many of the efforts we undertake as individuals to address environmental concerns are more virtue-signaling theater than meaningful action. I do try to reduce my plastic use but have found it to be more of an effort that I am able to devote to it simply because they are so ubiquitous.
That is the thing though. It isn’t going to be individual choices that solve the problem. It has to be policy. For one thing, at least half of our country doesn’t care and will not voluntarily do anything to reduce their footprint unless they have other reasons to do so and most people do not. Policy has the advantage of removing the emotional labor necessary to take the actions needed so in many ways, it is the best approach. Not to mention that most people simply do not have the capacity to weigh everything that should go into making decisions regarding climate change. I don’t know how much carbon is used in manufacturing things like windmill blades, solar panels, dams, or nuclear power plants but I do know that each of those things do have a carbon footprint as well as other environmental issues related to them. I think we can find a good way forward but not if the decision is left up to individuals! We need experts!
If people are not even willing to take the effort to vote and to vote well, they will never take the much greater effort to reduce their consumption. At least I will not have to tell anyone in the future that I helped along climate change by voting for Nader in 2000!
Lynne – I do agree wholeheartedly with you that policy change would be more effective.. The problem is the resistance to these proposed policies from people who don’t want anyone limiting their perceived freedoms. Ideally, one side would be able to compel the other through reason and civil discourse. Both of those seem to be out the fucking window at this point. The alternative is coercion, and that opens up a big can of worms.
I remember years ago having a copy of Ralph Steadman’s “Scar Strangled Banner”. I thought his illustrations at that time were hyperbolic, but now they are starting to look like accurate descriptions.
Indeed. It is the resistance to policy that is a pretty good indication that those people will not take individual steps to address things.
I am less worried about coercion because most people will not see it that way if the policies are crafted well. I am a big fan of capturing externalities into prices or reducing them in the first place with regulation. When I go buy something, I only see the price and the only question I have is if I can afford it. I don’t worry about how much the price might be lower if we didn’t have a minimum wage or environmental regulations. Most people don’t.
I have seen too how circumstances can help guide people to the right decisions. I am in some #vanlife forums and it is absolutely fascinating to watch how often the exact same people will go on a rant about liberal hippies who want to restrict people’s freedom with environmental regulations and then turn around and write about how to get all your energy from solar and wind and how to conserve water. They also are big preachers of “leave no trace” Turns out that the freedom of the road means self-reliance in terms of resources! These people have MUCH smaller carbon footprints than most Americans. I figure if those folks can do it, anyone can do it! The trick is finding the right motivation.
If Biden wins, I fear we are going to have to put the pressure on him (and congress) to enact some good policy. There are so many options!
Duh. I totally forgot! We already have a plan for a policy that will not be painful to most people and actually will help them! I guarantee you the person who gets a really good solid middle-class income job installing solar panels or manufacturing windmills or whatever will NOT feel coerced by the policy. If anything they will lose awareness of it after it is out of the news cycle and they’ll attribute the good job entirely to their merit! LOL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_New_Deal
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/09/15/hurricane-names-sally-greek-alphabet/5812287002/
NB and Lynne,
The gop has sheeple brainwashed to resist policy changes, even minor ones that have immediate impacts on whether you live or die. Can herd psychology like we’re seeing with them be harnessed for good? The challenge of occasional just use of authoritarianism is the public health paradox.
Lynne thanks for reminding me that Democrats never learn.
The Leader in his wisdom blurted truth out once again. The virus will disappear once we all develop the right herd mentality. One more term for Trump, and I’m sure we will all develop the proper mentality.
My bit of good news today, my friend Mattihas has been using his time recovering from the virus to write (I actually suppose he just put on the finishing touches) of his first novel.
A crime noir story. A major shift from his political/theological works for which is world famous. Please let your favorite publisher know you would love to read this in English, perhaps we can get a translation on the shelfs in time for the Christmas season.
https://www.facebook.com/mattias.gardell/posts/3043406282454382
Trump said. “But I will say this. They said at the Democrat convention they’re going to do a national mandate. They never did it, because they’ve checked out and they didn’t do it. And a good question is, you ask why Joe Biden ― they said we’re going to do a national mandate on masks.”
Blame Joe.
Ok folks– Pulling these out from my utterly failed work as a sustainability director. Some clarifying points:
1) Garbage is likely 1% of your carbon output. Focus on energy/fuel use if you want to change your personal impact
2)Plastic is really shitty for the ocean and its creatures so limit it’s use anyway.
3)Compostable plastics actually degrade and are worth the extra expense if you can afford it and the use suits. Lower in impact in production and end of life and better and cheaper all the time. Yes you can throw them in your municipal compost bin if you have one but they will not degrade in your backyard compost pile unless it’s 12′ long and 6′ high
4) Reduce, Reuse, Recycle is a priority list in descending order of climate friendliness.
5) #2 plastics are as easily recyclable in the US as paper and almost as profitable so by all means recycle those pop and water bottles or just don’t buy them in the first place. The rest have limited markets and utility. Compostable plastics are the future for disposable ware.
**It makes ZERO sense that we took a cheap product designed its impressive durability and used it for disposable food ware.
But personal behavior use is really just about making ourselves as individuals feel better, because we have learned that even those who acknowledge climate change is upon us do not easily change their personal behaviors. Young people are better at this than us olds though which is hopeful.
And governments are directed by the will of the people and the will of the people has STILL not made it a priority. And that’s not on the GOP; that’s on us Dems. We don’t care enough. Where government has proven effective is in redesigning streets and cities to accommodate more dense living near jobs.
Local businesses often have the will button the economic capacity to be sustainable. Customers must be willing to pay for sustainable choices. And again we fail. We are cheap and lazy.
In the end, it’s the capital market and innovations in materials, energy storage and renewable energy production that has made the greatest progress on climate action in the last 20 years and may just save our lazy asses. Big capitalized business must look and plan 10 and 20 years ahead. An they have for the most part seen this coming, even the energy companies. It was the uncomfortable lesson of my work in sustainability that they were doing a better job at moving us towards solutions than small business, personal behavior change or the public sector.
The last uncomfortable lesson was that humans change most rapidly in the wake of new technological innovation. To the extent that that innovation directs us towards sustainability, we will follow gladly.
It may just save us.
I did not own a computer until 1994 and did not connect to the internet until 99. I didn’t have internet connection in my home until my daughter’s school work and my work compelled it in 2010. I’m a liberal, small business-loving, luddite by nature. None of what I learned at my fruitless job was an easy swallow. I fully support the green deal. It may be too late by the time it passes. The only way it won’t be too late is if the private sector continues to push the necessary technology.
Either way, if we make it, we will owe our asses to the same system that got us here in the first place. Capitalism works fast in either direction. It’s an efficient machine that must be carefully and deliberately directed to serve the greater good by government.
Just curious JH, have you changed your thinking on fossil fuels, and support for fracking? Heard Joe telling voters in PA that no way was he going to ban fracking. It is so hopeful that you are placing our hope in BIG CAPITAL to save our asses. I’m sorry if I don’t think the short term profit maximizing ability of capitalism is actually up to the job. ” It’s an efficient machine that must be carefully and deliberately directed to serve the greater good by government.”
Nice liberal premise. Not sure how that at all jibes with, “The only way it won’t be too late is if the private sector continues to push the necessary technology.”
We’ve know the short and long term consequences of climate change for nearly 40 years, and in that time the US carbon emissions have done nothing but increase, almost exponentially. Mostly because government has subsidized, and incentivized continuation of our carbon economy at the behest and encouragement of private industry. Nearly all the Democratic Presidential candidates called for an immediate end to all fossil fuel subsidizes and the redirection of those resources into green sustainable energy. Of course it magically disappeared from the party platform at the convention. Tell Lynn to keep reminding me that it is the voters who are the problem.
Now remember to demonize the left for stopping our switch to nuclear power.
Well said, Jean.
What fuckin’ universe do you people live in? I am tracking dozens of ARRESTS for ARSON. I have posted VIDEO of people actually lighting fires in the brush (what you call “wildfires”).
They’re lighting thousands of them in Russia and the arctic too. These arsonists really get around.
Well, there you go again Mr Warlord. Lighting dumpster fires…..
That’s funny because the maps I see show the fires stopping abruptly at the Canadian border. They must be doing all the right things to stop climate change there.
But people on video…lighting wildfires…on purpose…
That couldn’t have anything to do with it! Don’t be ridiculous, right? Come on now. You call me a cultist?
Do your research, moron.
From CTV News:
How weather, COVID-19 spared Canada from wildfires like those in the U.S.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/how-weather-covid-19-spared-canada-from-wildfires-like-those-in-the-u-s-1.5105000
What are your parroting orders today. Are you upset about Biden not ordering a national mask mandate?
Do your fuckin’ research. It’s not even research. All you have to do is watch numerous individuals starting these fires on video and getting arrested. What makes you hate people who tell the obvious, impossible to defend against truth? You must be a congenital liar.
You are the parrot. Parrots are highly intelligent creatures so not really. You think and say what you are told no matter how illogical it is.
You parrot the dumbest fucker who’s ever held public office. You’re so much like him, but you’re still nothing but a sucker parroting for him. You’re pathetic. Please promise you’ll go berserk on election night and make some poor animal control Officer have to put you out of your misery.
According to a destructive idiot like you. I find it shocking there is a cadre of people who think they are adults who act like the biggest babies on the planet. You think the way you feel actually defines reality just like a toddler.
Go check Trump’s Twitter feed, so you know what to think and say next, you pathetic moron.
Did you not get enough weeeeed this morning? Need a bigger dose?
There are fires in BC. The stopping at the border is likely due to not using Canadian data sets for the mapping.
In 2017, BC lit up. All the pine forests killed off by the pine beetle went up in flames. 3,000,000 acres. The prevailing wind blew that smoke into Seattle, along with ash. For a few days, it was snowing ash and actually accumulating on things.
Do you want me to explain how viruses cause a cascade of conditions which are ultimately the cause of death?
Moron.
I don’t see the point in denying widespread arson. I have put up very strong evidence of it that you ignore. You are willfully ignorant.
Do you need me to re-post the article 8 posted yesterday about how many fires there are in Russia and the arctic?
Sonova Beach. This was turning out to be a nice thread before the local arsonist lit another dumpster fire.
Some of the fires are the result of arson, obviously. Many are the result of people being careless. Many are the result of lightning strikes.
What else is your dumbfuck master tweeting today? Have you gotten your parroting orders yet for the day? Or is this residue from yesterday’s orders?
Do you understand yet how viruses trigger a cascade of conditions, any one of which can end up being the ultimate cause of death? Or do we need to go over and over that again, Axios interview style?
No one is arguing with you about whether arsonists are lighting fires. They were caught and they should be prosecuted for what they did. You seem to be trying to take these instances and extrapolate that antifa is responsible for all the fires on the west coast. That is batshit.
We have evidence Acord was setting fires. Yes or no? If you understand all of the other shit Antifa does then: Why wouldn’t they also start fires? It’s a possibility. Yes or no? It is hard to catch rural arsonists and a small group of rural arsonists can do a lot of damage. Yes or no?
It says right here there were ‘zombie fires’ burning underground in the Arctic causing it. Shut the fuck UP.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/09/08/zombie-fires-underground-fires-spark-wildfires-arctic-circle/5744379002/
Wildfires primarily in Russia’s Sakha Republic have caused a spike in carbon dioxide emissions this year when compared to 2019, according to the World Wildlife Fund. Wildfires early in the season are believed to have been sparked by “zombie fires,” which burned underground during the winter, the agency reported.
By the way, stupid, the tens of thousands of sealed indictments are kept for the purpose of bringing and keeping key individuals in line whenever the need arises. Your stupid comment yesterday suggesting there were 150,000 active extortion actions being taken at once was just another display of how stupid you are. It wouldn’t take much thinking to understand the threats are kept and not acted upon except in those rare circumstances when the subjects get out of line.
It’s not rocket science, dumbass.
Antifa is a problem. Anybody paying attention over the last 3 years knows it to be true. I appreciate that you spoke up against violence, looting, and arson, Nobody. The Dems have been mostly silent about it though. Early on, even Maynard said he “understands” the rioting. More people need to speak out against it. Silence is violence.
Fires wouldn’t be spreading so out of control if there wasn’t the drought problem, regardless of what sparks them.
Of course some fires are started by arsonists. You’re not reporting anything new, dumbass. That’s always the case.
“comment yesterday suggesting there were 150,000 active extortion actions being taken at once”
Isn’t that what you said? I sure the fuck did not. Extortion? You have lost the bloody plot as my UK friends would say.
If course antifa is a problem. What is your idiot president doing to get the FBI to nip those assholes up?
Answer: Nothing. He wants antifa (and others) to go bananas so he can pretend he give a shit aboutvlaw and order.
After the election, the FBI will be permitted to do their job against antifa and the other idiots.
You have a difficult time following along, HW. Have you grasped yet that viruses cause a cascade of conditions, any one of which ultimately being the cause of death? Does someone need to explain that to you, Axios interview style? Will you mysteriously seem to forget again after the fog of weeed dicipates in a few days?
Mrs. Potts would like a word.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
I can see I’d have to explain again the very simple concept of holding thousands of sealed indictments simply for the purpose of having the threat that anyone who fails to stay in line has theirs unsealed.
Do you get it yet? How much simpler can it be said?
What has your insane clown hero tweeted today, juggalos? Have you gotten your parroting ordersfor today yet?
iRobert, you are actually seething with hate. I would check myself if I was you. This can’t be healthy. You are addicted to spewing nonsense and directing hate towards someone who tells the truth.
Since you are a johnny-come-lately around here there is a lot I have covered that you don’t know about. Climates have changed wildly over and over in the past two million years. It is a fact of life. Deforestation is the number one unnatural cause of it. I have championed that for a long time.
High CO2 is probably protecting us from another plunge into the deep freeze. Did you know interglacial periods in the Pleistocene era only last about 10-12 thousand years? Not much time to thaw out and build a civilization before it gets destroyed by ice is it?
You’re even too dumb to know I’ve been commenting here for more than a decade?
You can read my comments on the Davonte Sanford threads. You might then want to check yoself.
Speaking of climate change: today might be the last 80 degree one for a while. Time to get out and soak up some of that good sunshine. Oh yeah, baby. Feels so G-G-G-G-GOOD!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KXvhrnesM
“Of course antifa is a problem”
Not everybody knows that. Not everybody will admit that. FF, HW, EOS, You and Nobody are the only two who have spoke out against them that I can remember. The rest seem to like Antifa. They are by definition against anti fascism don’t you know. :)
So, what is your insane clown hero tweeting today? What are your parroting orders?
I first posted in Fall 2016 and do not recall seeing you post until much later so you must have taken a multi-year break. The way you talk about things I dispelled years ago like they are hot shit tells me you weren’t reading then either.
Antifa is very weak. They are also very poorly organized and very unintelligent. They don’t stand a chance when law enforcement is on their asses. That’s usually the case. I have no doubt the feds are currently being held back somewhat, simply to give your insane clown a talking point.
anonymous-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_paradox
HW: “The way you talk about things I dispelled years ago like they are hot shit tells me you weren’t reading then either.”
Could you restate that so that it makes sense and I can respond.
Vague Guy,
Not sure who you are directing your vague shit toward but the teapot analogy just doesn’t fit, I’d directed toward me. We have evidence that Antifa arsonists are responsible for some of the fires. Fact. I am leaving open the possibility that they also are responsible for more of the fires. Knowing that wildfires happen by natural causes I also leave open the possibility of many of the fires are of natural causes. I am not making unfalsifiable claims. I am actually bringing into question the claims that other people are making that “It is stupid to claimAntifa is responsible for the wildfires out west *except* in those few cases where they were caught doing exactly that”. Do you see how you always have everything backwards Vague Guy? Try harder.
How does that not make sense? For example I hashed out the Katie Johnson story as it unfolded but here you are bringing it up like it was some revelation.
I’m sorry you juggalos weren’t commenting back when we were talking about the frame up job on Davonte Sanford. That would have been way more interesting than the bullshit parroting were getting here now.
I haven’t seen anything from you which is compelling regarding the Katie Johnson case. Have you seen the unclipped video of her interview?
There seems to be a severe bottleneck in iRobert’s ability to process information. I posted a DHS document from months ago stating antifa is organized and funded and responsible for the violence in Portland.
You are very obviously not at all familiar with the sorts of organized crime law enforcement faces in America. Among criminal organizations, antifa is relatively very poorly organized, has no intelligent strategy or leadership, and are very easy to investigate.
iRobert,
It could be that the reason we are not cracking down on frontline Antifa is that we are trying to bring down the whole terrorist organization. Maybe Anonymous was directing his teapot analogy toward you? We do not know the extent of the Antifa organization—because the connections have not all been made yet. It is not easy.
Similarly, a seemingly small time drug dealer in Ypsi might actually be part of a network tied to a huge Mexican Cartel, for example….You don’t know until the connections are made. So pretending you know something about the extent of an organizational network when that network is by design clandestine seems silly as hell.
I guarantee I am light-years beyond you in understanding organized crime, of all sorts.
Antifa is a weak network of very loosely connected malcontents. They have no intelligent strategy. Their illegal activity is very sloppy and limited. They are among the easiest sorts of criminal organizations to destroy. When not held back deliberately, the FBI would have them completely destroyed in a year.
Just a brief update on the SD AG, and his brother LE members covering up his drunken slaughter of one of our fellow citizens? nothing to see here keep moving along.
http://dakotafreepress.com/2020/09/16/nemec-visits-scene-where-ravnsborg-killed-his-cousin-finds-skid-marks-and-blood-on-highway-14-shoulder-red-taurus-hauled-back-to-highmore-from-pierre/
I think it is inherently phony to use a disguise and cheesy electronic masking like a bad tv show for something so consequential. When I heard the actual voice of the individual in the video my impression was it was insincere. That was when I was spending significant time to substantiate the story. I did not want to be responsible for putting one of them into the white house.
Pay attention to John Brown.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)
Are there antifa units that trained with ISIS in Syria?
There is that bottleneck again. I have posted video of antifa’s training sessions. Yesterday I posted an internal DHS communication indicating exactly the opposite of how you characterize antifa.
Criminal organizations use lesser organizations all the time. It is clear no sophisticated organization is protecting Antifa. Some may at times choose to use Antifa as cover for a smaller profit-driven operation. Stooges like self-proclaimed Antifa are sitting ducks to be framed for insurance arson jobs and such.
Unverifiable opinion vs verifiable fact: which one strongly tends to win?
The fact that there are training videos should tell you something.
But you don’t know what that tells you, I guess.
You two just follow whatever cues you get from your dear leader and his echo chamber.
“antifa is relatively very poorly organized, has no intelligent strategy or leadership”
Your sense of what Antifa is or is not does not define what they are. It might turn out that they are better organized than other forms of organized crime precisely because they have a small army of wealthy brainwashed terrorists willing to carry out minI suicide missions on a daily basis for free.
I’m guessing a very visible arrest of Antifa fools will be ordered to happen shortly before Election Day.
I don’t think so iRobert, they will need them around to justify continuing police actions. After all fantasy terrorist are much more exciting than the real ones.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/16/accused-killer-of-california-cops-was-associated-with-right-wing-boogaloo-movement/?fbclid=IwAR0nWWsY2eGd4W6bachDNKD0agPwmQYTnkBYBVyZjtnQRHfzj6oH2qn_UR0#3335057359bd
Bottleneck. I posted the video and you didn’t watch. It’s not a “training video” they all watch online. Durr. Project Veritas released secretly recorded vids by an INFILTRATOR who was INVITED to their fake bookstore training location. You are too far behind to catch up. This is oooold news by today’s standard. I am up to the minute but ol’ Bottleneck thinks it’s the opposite.
FF: “Your sense of what Antifa is or is not does not define what they are. It might turn out that they are better organized than other forms of organized crime precisely because they have a small army of wealthy brainwashed terrorists willing to carry out minI suicide missions on a daily basis for free.”
If that were the nature of the organization, it would be even easier to take down completely.
The indicators are actually very consistent and fairly easy to observe. But an armchair observer can say and believe with confidence whatever they feel like. So I see little reason to go into long explanations with you guys. It probably is a better use of time just to play the games played here in the comment section.
You’re joining HW in fantasyland, FF. I guess I can’t expect anything else.
I look forward to your mental breakdown, HW. Think of me when it happens, will you. I’d appreciate that.
Wobblie, they could still make a big show of arresting some pathetic suckers and saying they were Antifa masterminds. They wouldn’t need to actually shit the thing down.
iRobert,
I have been warning about Antifa for 3 years. I have been warning about critical race theory for 10 years. None of this is new to me, iRobert. I knew about this shit a long time ago **because I was a part of it**although it was not under the same names.
I think you need to take a step back and explore the possibility that you are not seeing the full picture.
I don’t simply repeat what Trump says. I don’t even know what you are referring to….
From a broken man’s perspective that isn’t saying much. You have thrown reason in the trash.
It’s kinda sad, because I would like to go into the novel-long explanations of what I’m talking about. A lot of it is best explained in direct in-person conversation. I don’t really have that option and typing forever on an iPhone isn’t how I want to spend my life.
But I am kinda sad I can’t write all of it out here so We could have a real conversation about these things.
I’m going to have to stick to making fun of you guys when you don’t understand basic shit and when you eat very obvious things totally wrong.
And apparently, using a lot of insults and offensive comments is also part of the fun here, so I’ll oblige.
You ant even tell Trump is a moron. That is just too out there.
“Pay attention to John Brown.”
Believe me when I tell you that I pay very close attention to J Bro. Someday he might wish I paid a lot less attention to him.
You can’t even perceive Trump for what he obviously is. In light of that, think you could understand organized crime is beyond the pale.
* thinking
I wish we could have real conversations here about real things. But it just doesn’t seem possible.
“If that were the nature of the organization, it would be even easier to take down completely.”
No
Uh, yes, because it would be reliant upon those particular individuals.
Short of having Mark whacked, I’m not sure I have an easy way to demonstrate my knowledge on this subject to you.
An organization that has no heads is much more difficult to destroy.
Some are so well established they only have very replaceable “heads.”
In most organizations, the heads are not so easily replaced.
In organizations where the heads are easily replaceable, but really don’t serve much in terms of providing strategy, taking them out doesn’t make much difference.
I realize it’s important right now for you guys to make the biggest deal of Antifa as you can. I don’t mind, except I would prefer you guys weren’t such willing tools. I don’t want to join in the exaggeration or seem to endorse it.
I actually do like having conversations about real things in honest ways. This 24/7 propaganda bullshit is not fun for me. It’s just disappointing that we live in a culture where that has become the only game in town.
iRobert,
I think you need to look at this from a different angle. I don’t think it is like a crime network where there is a flow of money back to the head. I don’t think it is like a crime business. Maybe try to look at it differently?
I don’t think it is an easy to discover network. And I don’t think it is an easy to prosecute network. There is no will to prosecute the players at all because the public is brainwashed.
If you two started claiming Jean Henry heads the most sophisticated criminal network in Washtenaw County, I sadly couldn’t join in. I’d have to make fun of you for being full of shit, no matter how much I would want to join in on the Jean bashing.
RE: “Silence is violence.”
You complain about the left not voicing opposition to Antifa but yet, you seldom speak of the much greater threat of similarly disorganized right-wing terrorists. FWIW, I do not condone the violent actions of those who say that they are Antifa but I also see it as a response to the violence the police and right-wing terrorists have been doing for YEARS now. I also do not condone the official violence of the Trump administration but I guess we can count your silence as violence about THAT too!
Wobblie, and you think that people like you have done much to help with climate change? It turns out that Biden does have a plan to address this issue and if Congress passes it, it will be something. Something more than we will get with Trump!
https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/
Ok. I don’t understand what you are talking about. In my estimation you have gone off the deep end ever since covid came to town. You seem to get some comfort in believing in your own certainty in these uncertain times. I can’t blame you. Things are crazy and getting crazier. It’s normal that people would have wild responses in these times.
Who would you most like me to speak out against Lynne? Which specific instance?
Can we go back to talking about the caravan of dangerous criminals making its way up through Central America and Mexico to our border?
I’ll just wait a little bit and bring up the phony Antifa threat when it is no longer a topic on your list of orders.
Pick your top three instances and I can tell you if am silent about it or we can see if I am willing to speak out against it here and now. Give me your list now.
https://www.npr.org/2018/03/15/593895655/dozens-of-westerners-join-kurds-to-fight-isis-in-syria
Nice flag. It’s you who is in a bizarre twilight world that might as well be the matrix for how illusory it is. Everything you believe is wrong. The sooner you learn that the better your life will be. With that poor neuroplasticity that is going to be quite a challenge though.
An organization usually has founding documents of some sort. Articles of incorporation indicating their common purpose, mission, goals. By Laws that lay out the governance of the organization. Strategic Plans for achieving their goals. Agendas and minutes to track progress.
Antifa has none of this that I am aware of. They are decentralized with a vague goal of fighting fascism through harassment and property destruction. Anyone can throw on a black hoodie and call themselves part of Antifa, but that is meaningless because there is no organization to formally accept them. They are just role playing and causing mayhem. But this is creating fodder for some to try generating a narrative that Antifa is somehow associated with the democrats.
The other organizational structure that iRobert has rejected seems equally improbable… that it is being run like the mafia. You are just gonna have to go out there and show me the teapot for me to accept either of these assertions. What I see is a number of individuals that want to be a part of something, are letting themselves get into an excited emotional state that stalls out their ability to reason, and are making some really poor decisions.
My daddy was just a poor country boy, full of country wisdom. For example his take on finding a “few bad apples” in a bushel of apples, throw them ALL away. If there are some bad ones on top you know they will be all rotten by the time you get to the bottom.
https://www.innocenceproject.org/innocence-project-reaches-landmark-civil-rights-settlement-with-city-of-cincinnati/?fbclid=IwAR2ilmCdrDhske-dqlX7oRSPdR1ZLoomvKP-MSHSychqUQS75JMl-iN8CJw
of course if you have got some hogs, they will eat them right up
It was and official part of the German Communist Party in the ’30’s. We have been through this. They even still use the old German phraseology: (in a rhythmic chanting style no doubt faithful to the original german antifa) “Alerte! Alerte! Antifaschischiste!”
Let’s not be ignorant. Please. Just begin to learn without your ego getting in the way and it will be alright.
It was an official part of it…
The truth is if your mind is somehow blocked from processing evidence going against your “narrative” it is a strong sign it is you who are brainwashed.
https://qanon.pub/data/media/df93772741ebb8dd117f4b8102014c86764cdbe0ca22c87eda53f92281dc79e3.jpg
Let’s talk about the threat of this growing caravan approaching the IS boarder. Oh, wait, that was the last election ploy.
I’ll talk about Antifa after the election and see how excited HW and FF are about it then.
* US border
There is little mystery around the Antifa thing. It’s not a mystery as to what sort of organization it is and the extent of it. It’s not a mystery as to why Democrats generally downplay it. It’s not a mystery why the Trumpanzees are going bananas about it.
We will be able to move on to the next line of bullshit in a couple months. I’ll let FF and HW get excited, and I’ll make fun of them later like I do on almost every other bullshit focus of theirs.
Now I’m making fun of them for the caravan of criminals bullshit. What ever happened with that, FF?
https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/so-many-hoaxes/Content?oid=25352557
Pretty close to fuckin’ home in that NPR article I posted:
Caleb Stevens (fourth from left) in Raqqa, Syria, with other members of his unit. Stevens, a 23-year-old from Michigan, traveled to Syria to fight with the Kurdish People’s Protection Units or YPG.
Courtesy of Caleb Stevens
Well, this has been fun. See you tomorrow at the next dumpster fire.
Really really really fuckin’ CLOSE
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/03/01/ann-arbor-man-takes-islamic-state-joining-syrian-militia/386235002/
iRobert,
The indoctrination of these terrorists occurs at state sanctioned and tax-payer funded universities and k-12 schools. They might not be trained in combat (haha) but their minds have been trained/ brainwashed to fight for what their believe in at all costs. We are at war with terrorists and you are sadly mistaken if you think it is going to be easy to disentangle the network.
iRobert,
You act like I had some big interest in the caravans. I did not. Why do you switch subjects so much? You are taking on a Jean Henry style.
I’m making fun of you being suckered by another phony election issue. I thought that was obvious.
I found some footage of an Antifa meeting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE
…and another of a Proud Boys meeting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfAoRNSoliA
or maybe I have them backwards. It is hard to tell.
But you said “Antifa is a problem”. Antifa doing street violence is the tip of the iceberg. I think your analysis is backward. Dems thought street chaos would garner theM support so they let it occur within their cities. Polls said otherwise. They changed their tune because of polls. Not because innocent lives and property were being destroyed.
I mean I predicted there was going to be shift in the narrative. Bingo. It happened because of POLLS. Now how is that I am the sucker?
The kids/ young adults are being used as pawns. I have a lot more sympathy for the well intentioned youth even when they are doing horrible things than I have for the MM, JB, JH, and Cassandra’s of the world.
We are the suckers though?
Because Antifa is insignificant in the scheme of things. A small special unit within the FBI could shut those guys down in no time.
Antifa is only a problem because, as you’ve said, it is being permitted to be a problem.
The Dems were letting it happen because they felt it wasn’t serious enough to be a real problem. The Trump administration are letting it happen because they know it make a good tool to use against the Dems.
It’s a politically manufactured problem. Pretending like it is the product of one side or the other is just an attempt to gain some benefit from it. The FBI can shut those morons down fast and hard. And they will after the election.
I do think anyone who condones or ignores criminals destroying property and commuting acts of violence are being incredibly stupid and unprincipled.
If any of the other commenters here don’t think it matters when certain people commit violent destructive crimes, they deserve to be the direct victim of such crimes. I’m sure that would change their tune. Hopefully it wouldn’t have to go that far for them to get a clue.
The word “understandable” is tricky. If a person describes violence and destruction of property as “understandable,” they may be suggesting they simply understand that some people react in that very wrong way to situations. They may also be excusing it in a way. I think a person would have to say more to make their meaning clear.
Violence is only reasonable in self defense or in protecting a loved one (or personal property in more extreme situations). At least I think that’s enerallyvthe rule I’d subscribe to. It’s never okay to randomly destroy anything or assault anybody.
They could take the current batch of frontline Antifa off the streets, yes. Shutting down the forces behind Antifa is a task that is going to be 100x more difficult than fighting our own civil war. 1000x more difficult than getting rid of Isis.
They are using Antifa kids expressed anger/ violence/ vandalism to give a perception of legitimization to their lies. It’s why MMouth said he “understands” the rioting.
Antifa is just the tip of the iceberg.
Is there a public will to remove antifa from the streets? No. Why? Arresting “peaceful protestors” (Actual rioters) was the set trap. Think about how sick you must be to do all it takes to set that trap?
Friendly Fascist, this is one of the stupidest things you have ever typed. “The indoctrination of these terrorists occurs at state sanctioned and tax-payer funded universities and k-12 schools. They might not be trained in combat (haha) but their minds have been trained/ brainwashed to fight for what their believe in at all costs”
you and HW don’t have any where near the fantasy’s to fall back on as EOS. I recommend you start going to church, because these tall tales just don’t fly no more.
The public does seem to be in support of arresting anyone who commits any acts of violence or looting.
The cognitive dissonance for the Trumpers has got to be really psychoses’ inducing. The Woodward interviews juxta posed to his current statements, requires a total denial of everyone else’s reality. As with all cults, the only reality is the cult reality. Antifa is the tip of the iceberg. Evil is every where. Only the cult initiate can discern the truth, while non-believers will be purged. It must be nice to live such a simple simplistic life.
What do you know, another 1200 died from the trumpvirus today. Quick find some fanciful way to change reality.
Half of the country was in denial about it occurring in the beginning of this justice for Floyd wave—thanks to MSM lying. The public is coming around to it because the lie would not hold up because of video evidence. There was a shift. We are in the middle of a shift in perception. The perceptions are shifting to what we have been saying. But we are the suckers?
A few months ago NADLER said: “Antifa is a myth”.
How is stupid Wobblie? You don’t think Colleges are teaching neo-Marxism? Haha. You don’t think young school teachers are indoctrinating our kids based upon what they learned in college? Explain yourself, dude.
We’ll talk about it after the election. It is then when I won’t have to explain the “suckers” comment.
Do I have to explain why people who got all wound up about the caravan of criminals coming up from Central America before the last election were suckered?
Do you understand they were suckered?
We’re your kids indoctrinated, FF?
Did you send them to a college where they were indoctrinated? Because if not, then it’s not @our kids.”
* were
I not, then it’s not “our kids.”
People choose where to send their kids. Colleges aren’t assigned.
Are you mad because your kids don’t agree with you politically? If you are, because they don’t, it’s because of you. You are responsible.
Correct me where I am wrong Wobblie.
1) You did not graduate from college.
2) You do not work at a college.
3) You do not have kids going through school now.
4) You do not work at a school right now.
Yet you think your point of view is grounded in something substantial?
I assumed Wobblie got his education in prison.
My kids would smoke most of you in an argument. Sorry.
I have been to multiple colleges. They are teaching the same neo-marxist crap almost everywhere as far as I can tell. I think it is good to expose kids to the lies. It is part of their education to identify it and go to war against it. It’s not like you choose MSU instead of UM to avoid the Neo-Marxism…
Have you never heard of Hillsdale?
Maybe your kids should pick funny screen names and start posting here, and give you a break to go do other things.
You seem like you’re in a bad mood, FF. Here’s some news you’ll be happy to hear. The Democrats are going to blow it on the presidential election. I’ve gotten a good look at the functioning of the campaign. It doesn’t look good.
I know it’s just a lull in the commenting. But wouldn’t it be great if I were successful at driving all the other commenters off perminently?
You’re welcome.
“My kids would smoke most of you in an argument. Sorry.”
My dad could beat up your dad.
Non Sequitor Man!
I was responding to the suggestion that my kids have their heads in the sand like you idiots. It is neither here nor there but if your dad attacked my dad the odds are it is not going to go too well for Mr Vague Guy Senior. Anyway, I think you might be dumb.
My dad is moldering in the grave so I suspect FF would get the better of him in an argument. Not so sure about a fight, really hard to hurt a dead man. My school came complete with armed guards, isolation discipline, Arian gangs, sentences extended into military service and race riots. But I triumphed over the system and managed (despite being banned from entering the building) to graduate right in the middle of my class. Quit proud of that achievement. Many of my friends,…well they are dead now.
I doubt very much if FF has a clue about Marxism, neo or anti. HW demonstrates daily he only knows what the cult expects of him. If you are going to go all in on Fascism you need three enemies, an external on–“It is all China’s fault”, domestic “Antifa and BLM are burning our cities down.” And secret dangerous behind the scene manipulators who are secretly managing and directing the other two enemies. Tie it all together with nativist racist propaganda for the masses, and presto we have a Leader who can create 1000 year reich, What else does he got? Can’t protect us from the greatest killer out country has confronted in over 100 years, but he can make sure his buddies make some money.
Don’t worry be happy, the Democrats are not really an opposition party, or at least they campaign as if it does not matter.
https://time.com/5889093/joe-biden-michigan-campaign/?fbclid=IwAR03d8Dx9J2yrizV2FEu8RaN4yjIq9_tk2p10RYx9Mx0gYbBHGNkLiSlI_4
sterilization of socially undesirable elements has always been part of the racist agenda. Now we just need some true believers to help normalize this behavior. What do you guys say, what is the argument that will be deployed to justify this, probably need a couple more years of fascist social engineering to make it an acceptable practice again.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ice-nurse-revealed-georgia-detention-215816246.html?ncid=facebook_yahoonewsf_akfmevaatca
Hillsdale College’s annual Constitution Day Celebration, which this year was held at the Hyatt Regency Crystal City in Arlington, VA.
I thought Hillsdale was in Michigan, stupid me. I guess after their super spreader in person graduation, the Trumpeters figure smaller venues are better. Particularly since the White House seems to be the locus from which the virus keeps spreading.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/16/trump-confirms-white-house-staff-member-tested-positive-for-covid-19.html
The problem I see with the Democratic Party’s campaign in Michigan is not that it’s almost purely digital. I’ve been an advocate for that for years. It is that the voter contacts are not very positive or energizing. It’s more like an extremely annoying marketing campaign than it is an energizing, inspiring outreach. There is a new sort of inefficiency within the structure as well.
At least it isn’t the obvious disaster the sabotaged voter identification and get-out-the-vote operations were here in 2016.
I know Jen O’Malley Dillon, the Biden campaign manager, and had the opportunity to watch her work in the Edwards campaign in Iowa back in 2007-2008. I have a lot of confidence in her. She’s sharp.
The strategy may very well work. Focusing almost all attention on getting young people to vote may pay off. That demographic is certainly where Dems have consistently fallen short and dramatically. If the digitally-focused campaign can dramatically improve the turnout among the young, it will be a game-changer for sure.
As far as the Trump campaign goes, it isn’t quite as much of a joke this year as it was in 2016. But it’s still just a mess of mostly stupidity. Very few Trump supporters will fail to vote. They’ll get out. It’s just a question of whether or not there will be enough of them after they’ve driven off so many of the traditional GOP voters.
It’s not that complicated which is why it is so popular and seductive to young people. I think you mentioned before that you were part of a workplace democracy. I think those are positive experiments….It is a positive sign when those work. The conditions neo-Marxism is creating now make those types of experiments less viable. People are being separated into grievance groups to obtain voting blocks. Voting for what? More garbage and corruption…
If you criticize China, BLM and antifa you are a fascist. That’s a real winning idea there. It makes a lot of sense and it is just soooo true. It’s really going to resonate with a lot of Americans to just keep saying that over and over.
You are the reporter standing in front of a huge building consumed in flames somehow claiming it is a mostly peaceful protest. How do you think you can win anything that way? I think Americans look at that and go wtf are they trying to pull here?
Biden boat can’t seem to get it’s motor running. That you, Wobblie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWHQHs5P_8
Like I said.
Hmm. I thought this was an interesting article about the cult-like qualities of Q
https://www.justsecurity.org/72339/qanon-is-a-nazi-cult-rebranded/?fbclid=IwAR3D8ahl-ogzCJrvIm4Dx4SA0xsFlBl06i1ibT41JVpEGXz1Jtw9XeWu9Oc
As a result of Trump’s performance as president, a considerable majority of registered voters do not feel he should continue on with a second term. The only question is how many of those that feel he shouldn’t be re-elected actually get out to vote. Those that feel he should be re-elected are going to get out and vote regardless, it’s clear. Pro-Trump voters are highly motivated to vote. Anti-Trump voters are not as motivated generally.
Historically, young people have not turned out to vote in the proportions that older age groups have. When young people do turn out in a bit higher percentages than usual, they sway elections significantly.
The same can be said essentially of less economically advantaged groups.
Antifa throws so many molotov cocktails they can’t help but set their own bitch ass on fire. Incidents like this should serve to remind everyone that many times there are consequences and repercussions for acting a fool in life. No one will get away with trying to set people and on fire and things like that for long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ3yM1hoVGU
That’s a funny video, HW.
I do enjoy seeing Darwin Award nominees providing their submissions.
Doesn’t look well planned or executed.
It’s fascinating that they feel the need to fabricate racism by Q in that article. There is not a whiff of racism in over 4,700 Q posts to date. I’ll let you know if Q unexpectedly goes white supremacist!
Got 12 Trump emails yesterday alone. Just about every one promises something impossible “personal note” “meeting w campaign staff to discuss debate strategy in DC” oh I’m a “Top 100 Trump VIP” because of my past support, of that’s what Kimberly Guilfoyle told me this morning at 7:26AM.
iRobert it is not just digital. Lots of commercials and USPS mailings. I get something most days. Today I received a Biden/Harris absente ballot application. This follows the one I received yesterday from the Michigan Democratic Party Central Committee. I see lots of signage in my neighborhood, but when I go down river, or out into the rural areas, nothing but Trump signs. I was impressed when I was in Ohio a couple weeks ago. Rural Richland country had a few Biden signs, and it was pretty even Trump/Biden in the city. While sitting here typing I have gotten two texts. I wonder what sophisticated algorithm determined I wanted to contribute to the Biden/Harris Jewish community endorsement ad in the Detroit Jewish News.
For those interested in what else is on the ballot besides the Presidential election, still time to educate one self about Judges, Michigan Constitutional Amendments, down ballot races.
https://vote.michigan.gov/PublicBallot
Wobblie,
Um, I am a trained organizer. Um, I am a trained marxist. Um, I am, um, super, ahh, well versed on ,sort of, ideological theories.
You can quote me on that.
https://harpers.org/archive/2020/10/a-game-of-chance-harpers-letter/
” Interactions on social media seep offline into our real lives, and the results are toxic. A culture in which everyone is constantly on edge, waiting to be ambushed, screenshotted, ratioed, dunked on, and potentially fired, is not healthy. Equality in mutual insecurity is a negative equality. Genuine, positive equality can only be achieved through mutual security, which requires maximal tolerance and freedom. The boundary between the infinite and infinitely judgmental internet agora—where individuals become ideas, epithets, avatars of virtue or stigma to be celebrated or cast out—and our local, physical lives has eroded. We are uploading our competing visions into an online pressure cooker, collectively creating an environment that is not at all conducive to transcending division; on the contrary, it actively encourages, in so many little and not so little ways, the deepening of all our preexisting fault lines.”
Wobblie: “iRobert it is not just digital. Lots of commercials and USPS mailings.”
Obviously.
I should have specified I am talking about the field organization, and only in Michigan.
All I know is that I am getting serious hand cramps addressing GOTV postcards here in Michigan. And also some for Elissa Slotkin since I figure my own congresswoman doesn’t need the help!
From Republican Voters Against Trump:
AD: Top Pence staffer on Covid-19 speaks out against Trump, endorses Biden
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f0j6adNroo4
From Republican Voters Against Trump:
Trump Cut Off Aid for CA Wildfire Victims
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8AQKSODRY