The big take-aways from Super Tuesday

Before I jump into this, there are a few items I’d like to make clear upfront…. First, I truly believe that any candidate still standing in the Democratic field would be a dramatic improvement over Donald Trump, and I intend to support whomever it is that comes out of the convention with the nomination. My highest priority right now is removing Donald Trump, a man who I think poses a very real threat to both the future of our nation, and, by extension, the well-being of my family, from office. Second, although I intend to talk primarily about Biden and Sanders here, I still believe that Elizabeth Warren is the best candidate in the field. With that said, unless something unthinkable happens, like this new strain of coronavirus taking down both of her older, male Democratic rivals, I don’t see any path forward for her at this point. So, while I still support her candidacy, and platform, I do so with the understanding that my Michigan primary vote will likely be cast for the individual who I think is best positioned to take on Donald Trump in November. Third, as I believe I’ve expressed here in the past, I have real concerns about both Biden and Sanders. Much of what I saw from Biden early in the campaign led me to believe that he was not up to the task. And I feared that Sanders lacked the ability to build a coalition beyond his base that could give him the numbers, especially in swing states, to take on Trump in a meaningful way. (I also feared that his candidacy may not help down-ballot races, and that he might not have the skillset required to enact his legislative agenda if elected, but we’ll save those discussions for another time.) Fourth, I think it’s clear that, whichever candidate we choose, he or she needs to be able to build a broad coalition that encompass everyone from the suburban white women who voted for Trump in 2016, to the black Democrats who didn’t come out for Hillary Clinton during the last campaign. If we want to sweep Trump from office, and ensure that we never see another leader like him in our lifetime, we need to defeat him decisively, while, at the same time, maintaining the House and retaking the Senate. And, in order to accomplish that, we need a leader who can speak to the 60% of us who haven’t yet been sucked into the cult of Trumpism. Broadly speaking, we need someone with a message of unity that resonates throughout society. Fifth, I know and respect quite a few people who support Bernie Sanders, and I don’t question for a moment their sincerity in supporting his agenda, which is one of fairness, increased access for the disadvantaged, etc. A lot of people seem to be concerned today that, if Biden secures the nomination, Sanders supporters won’t rally behind him. As I’ve said before on this site, though, I can still remember when Bernie Sanders came to Ann Arbor in 2016 and stumped for Hillary Clinton after their bitter campaign. He knew what was at stake then, and I have no doubt that he’d do the same this year, if Biden wins the nomination. And, if it comes to that, I’d like to think that his supporters will follow his lead and do what’s right for the country… which is ensuring that we rid ourselves of the least qualified, most dangerous president in American history, so that we can make headway with the kind of progressive agenda that a majority of Americans want.

OK, with all of that said, here are my thoughts on Super Tuesday.

There’s no conspiracy at play. I know Trump and others are stirring the pot right now, and saying that the DNC “rigged” this year’s primary against Bernie, in hopes that his supporters might not show up and support Biden if he turns out to be the Party’s nominee. The truth, however, is that it was the endorsement of Representative Jim Clyburn and the black voters of South Carolina who turned the tide for Biden, and not “the corporate wing of the Democratic Party.” Going into the South Carolina primary, the Biden campaign was running on fumes. He had no ground game in the Super Tuesday states, and his campaign wasn’t even running ads. Pundits were talkign about how he could gracefully exit the race. The narrative changed, though, with his resounding South Carolina win. Going into the South Carolina contest, people were talking about how it was going to be close. Sanders was literally pouring money into the state, and seemed to have all the momentum. When all as said and done Biden ended up winning by nearly 30 points, though. And that’s what led to the wave of subsequent endorsements, from people like Pete Buttigieg and Amy Klobuchar. So, no, it wasn’t that the DNC decided to pull strings to disadvantage Bernie, as some, like Current Affairs’ Nathan J Robinson would have us believe.

And it’s also not true, as Shaun King said earlier today on Twitter, that Rachel Maddow and others have shared evidence that the DNC compelled Bloomberg to drop out of the race in order to disadvantage Sanders.

I don’t doubt for a moment that Democratic leadership would rather have Biden running against Trump than a man who rails against the Party establishment. I just don’t think, in this instance, one needs to resort to conspiracy theories to understand what’s happened. The explanation is pretty simple. Bernie did remarkably well in a crowded filed. But his base, which is approximately 25% percent of the Democratic electorate, while it was enough to win in a crowded field, just wasn’t enough to win as the race began to narrow. And, when Biden out-performed everyone’s expectations in South Carolina, gave the best speech of his campaign, and earned enough media coverage to change the tone of the contest, it led to the start of an endorsement landslide. Believe me, if he’d lost South Carolina, those endorsements wouldn’t have come, though, and Bloomberg would still be in the race.

Again, I like Sanders, and much of what he’s fighting for, but I don’t think his followers are doing the campaign any favors by indulging in this kind of speculation instead of looking at the fact pattern that’s developing as more diverse states hold their primaries… Here, on that subject, are just a few to consider.

While Sanders has done a tremendous job over the last four years making inroads with Latino voters, he apparently hasn’t made the same kind of significant headway with African American voters. As the Washington Post reports, “In Virginia in 2016, Sanders won 16 percent of the black vote, according to exit polling. This year, preliminary exit polling has him at 17 percent.” And the results were similar in South Carolina, where he went from 14 percent in 2016, to 17 percent this year. So there’s an issue that needs to be addressed in a substantive way. Here, with more more that, is something from Pod Save America’s Dan Pfeifer.

Sanders hasn’t been turning out new, young voters in numbers like he’d hoped. As the Washington Post reported on Super Tuesday, “Sanders has countered the idea that he’s too politically extreme by arguing that he’ll turn out low-propensity voters in the general election. We’re just not seeing that yet.” The Post went not to say that, according to their exit polling, only 1 in 8 voters were between the ages of 18 and 29 during this most recent contest. New voters definitely turned out, but they just weren’t necessarily young, and, more often that not, they voted for Biden. For example, in Virginia, turnout almost doubled, but it was largely due to older suburban voters, and they turned out to support Biden. The following excerpt is from the Washington Post.

…Sanders’s argument for his electability in November is predicated on the idea that he will spur a surge in turnout, particularly among young voters and the working class. Again looking at Virginia, whites without a college degree turned out more heavily in 2020 than in 2016, according to preliminary exit polls — and Biden beat Sanders by 15 points. About half the electorate was voters without a degree, up from 2016, and Biden beat Sanders by a 2-to-1 margin, a wider gap than Clinton enjoyed four years ago…

Sanders isn’t showing signs that he can unite the Party… Again, I like Sanders, and I look forward to working on his behalf if he’s the candidate. I do think, however, if he wants to win this thing, he has to address the fact, as others have said, that movements are built by addition, and he needs to start bringing new people to his side. And, with that, I thought that I’d share the following excerpt from Ezra Klein’s piece in Vox today.

…Persuading the Amy Klobuchars of the world to support you, even when they know it’s a risk, is exactly what the president needs to do to pass bills, whether that’s a Green New Deal or Medicare-for-all or just an infrastructure package. Biden, for all his weak debate performances and meandering speeches, is showing he still has that legislator’s touch. That he can unite the party around him, and convince even moderate Democrats to support a liberal agenda, is literally the case for his candidacy.

Tellingly, what Sanders did get was Marianne Williamson’s backing, and she’s arguing that the Democrats supporting Biden are launching a coup worse than anything attempted by Russia:

This kind of thinking is a bigger problem for the Sanders operation than people realize: If you treat voters and officials in the party you want to lead as the enemy, a lot of people in that party aren’t going to trust you to lead them. It’s part of the reason Sanders trails not just Biden but also Mike Bloomberg and Warren in endorsements from prominent elected Democrats.

This is a real weakness for Sanders, and one that’ll be hard to address: That he’s an insurgent facing down a corrupt Democratic establishment is core to his identity, and to the bond he’s built with his staunchest supporters. But to win the Democratic primary and govern as a Democratic president, you need to win over Democrats who aren’t your natural allies, who didn’t start out in your corner. Biden knows that and acts accordingly. The Sanders campaign is going to have to learn the same lesson, and fast.

To the credit of the Sanders campaign, it looks like they might be taking this message to heart. Here’s campaign spokesperson Ro Khanna on television earlier today saying that Sanders is “proud” of the Democratic Party, and looking to build a “big coalition.” One just wonders if Sanders can bring his followers in the so-called “dirtbag left” along as he makes this somewhat abrupt change.

In conclusion… I have no idea how this is going to end. One bad performance by Biden could change everything. One case of COVID-19 could do the same. I have a feeling that we’ve still got a few big plot twists in store for us before this is over. But it certainly looks, at least right now, as though Biden is finally finding his feet. Sanders, though, still isn’t out of this. Not by a long shot. The question is, whether or not he can adapt in the ways outlined above, in order to recapture the momentum he had at the outset. Regardless of who wins, however, I’m confident that they’ll be better prepared for the general election having gone through this. One just hopes that, whoever wins, we can all get behind them for the sake of our country.

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115 Comments

  1. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 3:55 am | Permalink

    I’m still angry that Bernie ‘stole’ votes from Warren, a younger, more competent, qualified and inspiring candidate. What is he doing in this race anyway? Did he join just to be a spoiler? I’d he a DNC tool?

    Dude shoulda stayed home like Hillary.

    J/K (well, not totally…)
    Turn around is fair play.

  2. EOS
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 6:20 am | Permalink

    Of course the DNC rigged the primaries against Bernie. There are still a few persons who aren’t so bat shit crazy to think Socialism is a viable choice. The only reason Warren is still in the race is in the hopes that she would split the Socialist vote. Can’t imagine what could possibly be effective in GOTV for a person with Biden’s skill set.

  3. John Brown
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:06 am | Permalink

    The only thing we can know for certain is that Agent Orange and his supporters are traitors to the Constitution, and a threat to all our families.

  4. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    In general, King is a liar but so is Maddow. Good luck with that “unity” thing.

    In this case Maddow sort of did say something close to what King said she said. Not quite, but close. It is funny to me that anyone, including Maddow, would pretend like King was coming totally out of left field there.

    Again, good luck with that “unity” thing which apparently necessarily involves others bending their wills toward the will of the establishment.

    Dems need a giant group therapy session. The lack of unity is a necessary outcome that arises from their mode of being.

  5. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    I agree with you, Mark. That’s a nice change.

    Maybe you should explain this stuff to your state Senator. He seems pretty upset about it.

  6. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Oh. I get it now. John Brown is pure satire. Jean was right: I am not good at understanding jokes.

  7. Holly Otterbein by proxy
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    New: The Super Tuesday shellacking was so thorough that Bernie Sanders’ strategy changed overnight. Refusal to attack ads is out; pro-Obama spots are in. Sanders’ campaign co-chair says they need to appeal more to older voters and traditional Democrats.

  8. John Brown
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:21 am | Permalink

    Hey FF, you’re going to love the new Dixie Chicks song “Gaslighter”. I think they’re talking about Agent Orange, but it works for you too.

  9. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    The unity thing definitely looks to be an almost impossible challenge at this point. The party has to go with the candidate who best connects with the voters they have to have in November. The states that have to be won to get the 270 electoral college votes are rust-belt states with large black populations. Sanders might be stronger in Colorado and Arizona than Biden would be in the general, but Biden is more likely to be strong in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Virginia, and maybe even North Carolina and Georgia.

    If I were Sanders, I’d float the idea of Stacey Abrams as VP choice. She would help a lot with the constituencies he’s having some difficulty in appealing to.

  10. Lynne
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    I have already voted for Warren in Michigan’s primary but even if I were going into vote in person, I would still vote for Warren.

  11. Bob
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    Bernie stole votes from Warren? She can’t finish above third in even her home state but Bernie should have stepped aside when she started to run, despite the fact that he’s still neck and neck with Biden for states and delegates. Fantastic logic.

  12. Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    For what it’s worth, it’s also worth noting that, if he hadn’t been for the absentee ballots that Sanders had banked, Biden likely would have won even more resoundingly on Super Tuesday.

  13. Aruna
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    I’m still voting for Warren. I want her to be making the Biden vs. Sanders decision for me at the convention.

  14. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    I like the idea of passing the buck to Warren. She should make that her campaign slogan.

  15. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    Bob is was a joke.
    Jesus.

  16. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:35 am | Permalink

    The Sanders supporters are a little on edge right now. Did you see your State Senator Jeff Irwin’s response to Super Tuesday? He was pretty messed up.

  17. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    Governor Whitmer endorse Biden.

  18. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:42 am | Permalink

    EOS repeats GOP talking point that the DNC has rigged the election against Bernie.

    This is from one of the source articles in the opinion piece HW linked:
    “With his own path to being the nominee unimpeded, Trump has turned to weighing in repeatedly on the Democratic nominating contest. He has repeatedly suggested the process is being “rigged” against Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) in an effort to stir up divisions within the party.”

    And leftists are falling for it.

    I took HW’s link seriously. Turns out it’s bullshit. Clicking over to the source articles reveals he isn’t turning out the voters and several caucuses/primaries were cancelled so there would be no visible opposition.

    I’m relieved to learn HW is as full of shot as always.

  19. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    I wasn’t telling the governor who to endorse. I meant to type “endorsed” as she actually has already. She’s joined the conspiracy. Someone do a welfare check Irwin, will you?

  20. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    I also meant to type the word “on” somewhere in that last comment. I was trying to get someone to do a welfare check on Jeff Irwin. I’m having a difficult time with typing. I’ve been super high continuously since November.

  21. Sad
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Isn’t Jeff Irwin married to that radical pro housing environmentalist that’s running for city council in Ann Arbor? They probably are more on the socialist side. Nothing wrong with that. If it can bring out legions of young people to the polls.

  22. Diane
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    I have said this before and will say it again just so that the diehard Bernie supporters hear it. Bernie has NOT been anointed the nominee. For some reason many of you think he worked hard for this and is all deserving because he happened to do well in a couple small non-diverse states. Nothing is being taken from him because he has not earned anything yet. There is nothing wrong with the race continuing on. We don’t have to have a nominee after a few states. My vote is just as important as someone in New Hampshire or Iowa.

    Bernie runs his campaign claiming to be a victim and an underdog all the time and it is quite annoying. He did that in 2016 against Hillary and it worked for him then. But running as the victim does not work when you were leading the race. It just makes you look like a weak leader. I view Bernie as weak.

    I like Biden. I have liked him since the 90s and have supported him in all his presidential runs. What I like about him is what people criticize him for. He is not polished. He is authentic and real and does not always give a perfect speech. He has dedicated his life to public service with a history of doing great things. I respect that.

    He has overcome a stutter problem from when he was a kid which causes him to sometimes mess up his public speaking, but so what. It is sort of a disability in my eyes and I cringe every time I hear someone make fun of it.

    Bernie on the other hand…you will hate me for this…is just like Trump in my eyes. He spouts off pie in the sky ideas with no real way to pay for them. He gives people false hope. I am a realist and don’t appreciate that. He plays victim way too much and constantly claims you are either with me or against me. We are his enemies. He refuses to call himself a democrat and consistently puts down people like me and the party I have supported for years. His supporters are vicious, arrogant, sexist, and do him no favors. His supporters have turned me off to his candidacy like in no other election I have experienced. They have pushed for the Bernie revolution so hard and played so dirty in 2016 and 2020 that it has now caused a revolution against Bernie. That is Bernie’s problem now. Again I remind you that Bernie has not been anointed the nominee no matter what the Sanders supporters say.

    Many people are worried that if Biden wins the nomination that the Bernie supporters won’t vote democrat, but I can tell you the opposite is also true. I don’t know if I could vote for Sanders. There will be 2 candidates that don”t appeal to me at all and for the first time ever, I might sit out the presidential race. Others I know feel the same way too.

    That is why there is now a revolution AGAINST Bernie Sanders. To stop that from being the reality.

  23. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    No his father is married to Jen Eyer, Sad.

  24. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    And Jeff’s father is a rep from the UP. He’s NOT a socialist.

  25. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:34 am | Permalink

    More fun from the article HW linked. IT was written by the Press Secretary for Trump’s campaign.

    Propaganda.

  26. Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    I think a lot of people supported Irwin only because they thought he was the crocodile hunter.

  27. Sad
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Is Irwin a Sander Socialist or a Warren socialist?

  28. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    In fairness to HW, he doesn’t have the choice to speak critically of Trump. He can’t even think bad thoughts about the President. He’d be wished into the cornfield.

  29. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:43 am | Permalink

    Sorry, Mitch Irwin was a State Senator from the UP also MI Dept of Ag head. Not a socialist.

  30. Sad
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    No the son. He was worked up about the Biden win on Tuesday. Maybe he thinks it was rigged? He would know.

  31. Anonymous
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    I’m voting for whoever is leading the Democratic primary when it comes here, as that would be the person who would be most likely to do best in the national election. More specifically, the person who does best in the primary in what would be contested battleground states will likely do best in the national election. California victory doesn’t matter, as California is already blue. For all of each candidate’s talk, it’s the actual turnout and votes that they generate that matter.

  32. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    Bullshit? What? You are full of shit like always, Jean. It never fails.

    Republican turnout for Donald Trump in Texas—1,879,758

    Democrat turnout for all 4 top candidates combined—1,663,590

    Correct or incorrect?

  33. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Not only a dumbass, you are a dickhead. Everything you say is wrong but you try to cast shade on people who tell the truth. Dumbness I can deal with. You cross the line into offensive stupidity every day.

    https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/trump-campaign-touts-high-republican-turnout-in-primary

    In the New Hampshire Republican primary, the president received more than 129,000 votes. That is more than double what former presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush got in their New Hampshire primaries during their reelection bids.

  34. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    Still looking for the numbers for all the Super Tuesday contests HW. The article doesn’t show them. It frequently compares Trumps numbers in 2016– a contested race– to the current ones. Turn out is what matters. You are right there. I don;t doubt the Texas bit is true. What about the rest? I’m suspicious, however. Any article pretending to be factual by getting stuck in the opinions section, deserves a thorough vetting don’t you think?

  35. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    I’m only interested in overall turnout for the primaries between the parties. That’s the only comparison that matters.
    Trump just got impeached. It does not surprise me that people who support him turned out to cast their ballots more than for other primaries. Overall turnout v Dems– all that matters

  36. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    You need to learn to read and understand information.

    https://www.wbur.org/news/2020/03/03/president-donald-trump-wins-massachusetts-gop-primary

    “300,000” Do you think that is inflated much? You won’t respond to numbers I’ve already put up so I don’t know what you think is going on here. You are doing that thing you do where you make a dumbass claim and then trip out and start lying and casting shade to try to cover up for it. What a weird way to live.

  37. Anonymous
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    What did Jeff Irwin say? Can someone cut and paste?

  38. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Not too shabby in ultra blue CA. Beats Burny + Wizbef and beats Bidin’ + Lil Mike + Bootyjudge.

    Donald Trump
    172 92.5% 1,485,27

    Bernie Sanders
    155 33.8% 1,057,287

    Joe Biden
    93 25.1% 784,341

    Michael Bloomberg
    14 14.1% 441,562

    Elizabeth Warren
    9 12.2% 381,965

    Pete Buttigieg
    0 6.2% 192,778

  39. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Read it and weep. Better than your top four in Texas. Realize primary voters understand Trump will be the nominee whether they individually vote or not. We are just that energized.

    Donald Trump
    117 94.1% 1,889,006

    Joe Biden
    81 34.5% 716,030

    Bernie Sanders
    72 30% 622,360

    Michael Bloomberg
    5 14.4% 298,262

    Elizabeth Warren
    1 11.4% 237,028

  40. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Warren is out of the race. I’m surprised.

  41. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    Of course it is rigged. What is up with Iowa? The American people are still waiting to cash those ‘quality checks’. You don’t think they put a hit on Bernie there? He didn’t win? Everything after that is necessarily affected by it.

  42. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    She did her job, iRob. You understand.

  43. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    HW– you are comparing a basically uncontested primary to a contested one. That doesn’t tell us much.

    Re your numbers on turnout in texas.
    The total GOP turnout was 2,008,385
    Dems were 197768.
    BUT GOP votes for Trump were less than overall Dem turnout: 1889130


    So the margin of victory for overall turnout in Texas was Republicans voting for anyone but Trump. I’d say their votes were up for grabs.

  44. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    But it is rare to see such high numbers in an uncontested primary. Do you not understand that?

  45. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Virtually uncontested, whatever; no viable alternative. No chance Trump will not be the nominee.

  46. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Here are all the super Tuesday turnout numbers for the Dems in total v the numbers for Trump as available.
    I did not include Super Tuesday states with no GOP primary.
    Only Alabama and Arkansas had a higher GOP turnout. And not by much. Not surprising.
    Texas as a noted above had a higher overall GOP turnout if one includes anti-Trump GOP voters.
    These are official numbers from each state’s board of elections.
    Alabama: GOP 695469
 DEM 452578


    Arkansas: GOP 240789 DEM 229381
    
California:GOP 1454307
 DEM n/a
 

    Mass: GOP 212,960 
 DEM n/a
    

NC: GOP 747,038
 DEM 1322760
    

OK: GOP 273562
 DEM 303977


    TENN: GOP 346,932
 DEM n/a


    TEXAS: GOP 1889130
 DEM 197768
    

UTAH: GOP 277307 DEM n/a
    

VT: GOP 33977
 DEM 157786

    Good thing for HW that I’m on bed rest today. Wouldn’t want him to get his numbers wrong.

  47. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    Trump’s numbers are far higher than any incumbent for a long time. Way higher than for B-rock and Dubby’s re-elections. That’s what to compare it to. Make sense or no?

  48. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    HW– I get it. This is the first post impeachment primary. It does not surprise me. But that article you posted as well as your numbers were heavily slanted.
    I know it will be hard to beat Trump. But not impossible. He’s still widely unpopular.
    I think your chest pounding is premature. And your sources are corrupt.
    We’ll see what happens. Meanwhile, we have some real numbers. You are welcome.

  49. Billy
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    People who don’t support Sanders have never truly been on the bottom of society. Some of us clawed our way back, and will never forget what that was like. When I hear Sanders message, I hear something from someone who seems to really care. Does he have a rock solid plan? No…but I’m my eyes, he has integrity. Just my opinion. You may disagree, and that’s fine, but now you have a glimpse of what goes through the mind of some Sanders supporters. I wouldn’t call myself a Democrat, but I will be voting for whoever they send up this election. Fuck Trump…

  50. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    It’s not slanted at all. Trump had better turnout by far than any incumbent for a long time. To pretend it’s not real does nothing to help you.

  51. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Billy– I hear you. And I know many like you who support Sanders. But I also know Sanders supporters in the top 20 and even the top 1% of wealth. Since there are a lot more people in the Us who have “truly been on the bottom of society’ than otherwise, I would suggest that your experience is far from universal. A great deal of those people must have voted for Biden and many many voted for Trump. In 2016 HRC had more votes from the very poor than Sanders did. It’s great that Sanders resonates with you and you feel seen and heard, but your experience is not representative.

    Sanders can’t win by continuing to attack the party he is running under. It wa an incredibly bad strategy.

    Only Republicans are stupid enough to fall for that.

    Not saying the DNC is perfect by any means– not a fan– but the electoral system is not corrupted. Bernie is just not as popular as his supporters and he hoped. And his supporters are not as enthusiastic as he’d hoped. It seems supporting Sanders among some young people is a kind of social obligation, but voting for him isn’t. And not all those young non voters are disenfranchised. Most young Sanders supporters are doing just fine given their age group.

  52. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    HW I did not pretend it was not real. I said the opposite and I provided actual numbers. You provided selective (aka slanted) ones. I said the grandstanding from Trump’s campaign is premature. That’s accurate. He may well win if the economy holds and coronovirus subsides. But it won’t be by a landslide. Just like it wasn’t the first time he said it was.

    Please stop crowing. I know that’s an impossible ask. If you are going to be here can you just stop pounding your chest? It’s really annoying and convinces no one of anything

  53. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Some states (and counties and municipalities) had other things on their ballots. In metro Detroit counties there is a DIA millage renewal on the ballot. You’d have to see what all was on each states’s ballots in every county and municipality to get a full picture of what might have motivated turnout.

  54. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-drops-out.html

  55. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    “Ms. Warren has told associates that she does not plan to offer an endorsement when she drops out later on Thursday, according to a person close to her.”
    Smart move.
    Maybe she should take VP given how fucking out of it Biden is lately.

  56. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    Didn’t you label the article HW shared as propaganda?If you label something as propaganda, then you should be able to demonstrate why it is propaganda, Jean.

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    I guess I’ll crow all I like, Jean. You are in denial that Trump has high, high turnout. That is evident by comparing other incumbent’s primaries.

    Hey, how do you like Blinton having to go back to court over her missing emails? The judge agreed with Tom Fitton. Getting a little hotter, huh?

  58. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    I did FF. It was written by the press secretary of the Trump campaign. It was placed in the opinion section of the paper. It makes conclusions that are hyperbolic and not supported by the source articles linked or the facts for the most part.

    Since you love dictionaries:
    prop·a·gan·da

    information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

    Any questions?

  59. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    HW– HRC is always in court because of you assholes. So far nothing has stuck. Nothing. How many times has she been subpoenaed now?

  60. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    FF– It may be confusing because the original article from the Hill was posted on another thread. The bleedthrough is my fault. The article is being widely shared among conservatives so I’m sure you will be easily able to find it.

  61. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    IRobert— you are right. Alabama had a big GOP primary because of a hotly contested Senate primary race.

  62. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I understood what article you were referring to as “propaganda”. If we accept a broad definition of propaganda then almost all political writing fits under the broad definition. I agree that the article lacked direct support for its conclusions but that does not mean the conclusions have been demonstrated to be false. The links did not go anywhere good, imo . There was a lack of direct support. I was also hoping to see numbers that supported the claims. I don’t think your numbers refuted the conclusions did they? That is the part I am confused on. Yes, you offered numbers. I was surprised with the numbers you offered because they seemed to outpace ( by a lot) my own sense of how many Republican’s would show up to vote for uncontestedTrump. I don’t see how your sharing of those numbers refutes anything. You might be able to do it. I don’t know. I think you are pretending to have demonstrated something you have not demonstrated. Am I wrong? Did I miss it?

  63. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

    FF– I never suggested that the GOP did not turn out in decent numbers so why would I refute that? I have never suggetsed that Trump will be easy to beat, given the economy as it stands and the impeachment trial, which I still hold was ethically necessary but a political fail. What I suggested was that the articel written by the Trump campaign PRESS SECRETARY was hyperbolic spin posing as news aka propaganda. It doesn;t have to be all wrong to qualify as propaganda, just misleading. And the conclusions of the article are not supported.

    I never said Dem turnout was great. I said the opposite because young people did not vote, even for Bernie, and we need them.

    Why don’t you apply the same scrutiny to HW’s statements. I think you will find more issues there.

    Your double standard is showing again.

  64. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    I accept the broad definition of the term “propaganda”. I accept that an article does not need to be all wrong to qualify as propaganda. I also accept the article was disappointing because it did not show direct support, in the form of numbers, to support its conclusions. The article has a lot of truth claims. I am wondering which specific truth claims within the article you are refuting? You are posturing like you refuted something specifically. I might have missed it but I don’t understand what you refuted specifically with your. Umbers or otherwise.

  65. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    Re the Hillary email deposition, it relates to FOIA avoidance which is a concern. Although not punishable by jailtime or anything much really unless they can demonstrate a larger cover up. (We had the same issue in A2 with local councilmembers using personal emails and then getting FOIA’d on those accounts and not turning them over, saying they were lost. –Nothing happened) The same judge ruled in favor of Hillary in the past, releasing her from responsibility in the filegate scandal during her husband’s adminsitration. He is conservative but seems decent. His decision on a Native American complaint against the Reagan Interior was awesome. And his decision to preserve the Congressional Report on CIA enhanced interrogation (the subject of movie The Report) was also awesome.

    https://ballotpedia.org/Royce_Lamberth

    I’m not too worried about Clinton. I can however totally see her withholding information from FOIA’s so I’m not saying she’s innocent. That seems like something she would do to protect herself. She has been under constant investigation for almost 40 years now. Amazing that nothing has stuck. I don’t think many of us would survive that kind of scrutiny. I know I wouldn’t.

    It was good to review the Judge’s record and be reminded of what an independent branch of government looks like when it’s actually independent.

  66. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    *numbers

  67. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    FF I’m not taking order from you about what to talk about. Even today,w hen I have time. You bore me. I’ll engage as I want and as I’m uninterested in examining this further. My point was made multiple times. Your continuing to question me does not amount to any kind of victory. It’s just annoying.

  68. Jean Henry
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    FOAI violation punishments: https://www.rcfp.org/journals/the-news-media-and-the-law-summer-2003/violating-government-access/

  69. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

    That’s an interesting response, Jean. I am just asking you which specific truth claims, from the article, you have a problem with? Which claims do not add up in terms of numbers? I may have missed it…

  70. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    Let’s put it this way. After reading the article I was not sure if the claims of the article were true or not. You seemed to be acting like you knew that some of the claims were untrue. I did not see your reasoning on display so I asked for your reasons. Why would that seem like an unreasonable ask? Why would you see it as an unusual demand?

  71. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    It’s not a demand at all….

  72. Anonymous
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

    Paul Krugman:

    About Warren: deeply sad. She was the candidate of ideas, the best hope we had of getting a strongly progressive agenda actually enacted. Plus enormous energy and personal charm. What happened? Well, sexism was a big deal, probably the most important thing,,,

    But she also made one huge strategic mistake: she thought she could win over the Bernie crowd by going for Medicare for All. This was a break with her previous accumulation of medium-sized plans, and opened her for attack….

    And it didn’t win over the Bernistas anyway, because they’re only partly about progressive policy; they want someone who channels their sense of grievance. Warren wasn’t their type precisely because of the thoughtfulness that attracted her supporters

  73. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    The world is just not ready for the thoughtfulness of Warren and her supporters . Thoughtfulness was their weakness. Thinking through things was their kryptonite. And thoughtfulness.

  74. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Did Jean use a superfluous link in a article I posted as if it is the article? I think that is what she is doing. Fuckin’ goofy.

  75. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    True or false?

    In the New Hampshire Republican primary, the president received more than 129,000 votes. That is more than double what former presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush got in their New Hampshire primaries during their reelection bids.

  76. charlie romeo
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    The best candidate the DNC ruling class can offer is a sputtering, blabbering, stuttering, mentally defective imbecile. Because to the ruling class he is preferable to Sanders. Get ready for 4 more years of Trump, at least 4 more years. Because after that he may decide to appoint himself emperor. The same thing happened during the rotting, decaying days of the Roman Empire.

  77. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

    The DNC is the party that wants to have coronations. Why do you think they brought John Podesta back before the primaries? Not so democratic really. Bend the rules this way and that, make it up as they go along, play favorites with superdelegates, scrap primaries they don’t like…But you act like Trump being properly elected (in spite of illegal spying by Obama) is some kind of offense to the Constitution.

  78. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    J Bro,

    Don’t be shy.

    I think C Romeo is trying to do a little online flirting with you.

  79. EOS
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/judicial-watch-victory-federal-court-orders-deposition-of-hillary-clinton-on-emails-and-benghazi-attack-records/

    She will be deposed under oath finally and there are no restrictions on the potential topics.

  80. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Lines up with what I have said and against you, Jean. Those investigations were bogus. Incomplete at the very best. You are right that amazingly nothing has stuck so far but that is the past with those friendly environs. Doesn’t sound like her people will be getting immunity for no good reason this time.

    The judge, an appointee of President Ronald Reagan, said the fact that more Clinton emails continue to dribble out from the State Department raises questions about the thoroughness of the government’s earlier actions to recover Clinton’s messages.

    “Even years after the FBI investigation, the slow trickle of new emails has yet to be explained,” Lamberth wrote. He blasted Clinton’s prior answers given in response to another judge’s order as “incomplete, unhelpful, or cursory, at best.”

    Among the questions Lamberth said Clinton still needs to answer: “How did she arrive at her belief that her private server emails would be preserved by normal State Department processes for email retention? Who told her that—if anyone—and when? Did she realize State was giving ‘no records’ response to FOIA requests for her emails? If so, did she suspect that she had any obligation to disclose the existence of her private server to those at State handling the FOIA requests? … And why did she think that using a private server to conduct State Department business was permissible under the law in the first place?”

    In addition to ordering Clinton’s deposition, Lamberth said he’ll require Clinton’s former chief of staff Cheryl Mills to be deposed, although she was already questioned, in-person and under-oath by Judicial Watch about the issue in another FOIA case. The judge also approved a subpoena to Google for any Clinton emails it may possess.

    Lamberth said Clinton and Mills may be questioned specifically about their knowledge of records related to the Benghazi attack, but not about their response to the assault, which killed four Americans including the U.S. ambassador to Libya.

  81. Sad
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    The African American community choose Biden. If you have a problem with it attack them.

  82. Bob
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

    If the African American community truly love Biden that much, which I doubt, so be it. I hope they turn out in high enough numbers to beat Trump. I don’t see it. Even if Joe doesn’t bumble his own way into losing, he isn’t inspiring anyone.

    I’m sorry to see Warren go. She’s great and would be a great president. She really seemed to lose her focus at times though. It’s a shame she didn’t wholeheartedly endorse Bernie today. I sure hope she doesn’t back Biden. I had hoped maybe she made a deal with Bernie and he would have been there to immediately name her as a running mate with a clear message that she would be more than just a traditional VP. She would be great and let’s face it, Bernie’s health could be an issue at any time. Four more years of Trump coming.

  83. Sad
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 6:17 pm | Permalink

    Your a pessimist. I don’t particularly love Biden but I know anything if possible. It might require a lot of work from us but it isn’t decided yet.

    You need an attitude adjustment.

    Before you predict doom and gloom wait until he picks a VP. At his age health is an issue as well.

  84. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 6:34 pm | Permalink

    Your President is having a Town Hall right now.

  85. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:02 pm | Permalink

    Trump’s base of supporters are definitely very highly motivated. They certainly mean business. It will take unprecedented Dem turnout to defeat him. No question about that.

  86. Bob
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:32 pm | Permalink

    He’s going to pick Kamala Harris

  87. Sad
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    No way.

  88. Sad
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Bernie is coming to Ann Arbor Sunday.

    https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/03/bernie-sanders-to-rally-at-university-of-michigan-sunday.html

  89. Meta
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    Michael Harriot: “An Open Letter to White Liberals Blaming ‘Low Information’ Black Voters for Not Cleaning Up White Folks’ Mess”

    A few days ago, I was informed that some of you may have a problem with black voters who actually went to voting booths and exercised their right to vote for whomever the fuck they wanted. Apparently, anyone who didn’t vote the way outraged, left-leaning white liberals wanted must have been an uninformed heathen, a moderate or, even worse, a “centrist.”

    And now your fragile brittle hearts are broken into a thousand little pieces because black people have rejected the Buddha of Birkenstock-wearers during his quest for the presidency. And, by not choosing Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden supporters are somehow ruining America…

    Undeterred by actual data, Sanders surrogates’ new tactic seems to be an attempt to paint blacks as low-information voters who somehow don’t know Biden’s record. Apparently, the people who vote for Sanders are genius-level political strategists but the ones who cast a ballot against him just aren’t smart enough to wade through the publicly available information.

    Or maybe it’s because black people really like Barack Obama and don’t know enough to distinguish Biden’s record from pictures of him standing next to Obama, as Sanders himself insinuated on Rachel Maddow’s show Wednesday.

    Read more:
    https://www.theroot.com/an-open-letter-to-white-liberals-blaming-low-informatio-1842100419

  90. BigPoppa
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Biden is just slightly to the left of Trump, but “Blue no matter who lesser of two evils!”, right? Biden is a warmonger, racist, homophobe, anti -woman, big business sellout. If anybody supporting him thinks that is a step in the right direction, please get your head examined.

  91. iRobert
    Posted March 5, 2020 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

    Kamala didn’t do well. I don’t think she will be considered for VP. I think Stacey Abrams would more likely be considered. Sharrod Brown is likely being considered also.Beto is likely being seriously considered also.

  92. Sad
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 5:01 am | Permalink

    If Biden were going to pick a white man for vote why not Mayor Pete?

    It’s silly to call Biden a racist when he has literally been chosen as the person by Black America. In fact. On the record. Without a doubt. They are the base of the Democratic Party.
    Did you see South Carolina? North Carolina? Texas?

    I get the frustration. They didn’t like Mayor Pete either.

    But what are you going to do? Throw a hissy fit take your toys and go home?

    And if you’re a Bernie supporter the kids didn’t even come out to vote. They’ll come to a rally but literally won’t vote .

  93. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    How do you feel about Pete turning out to be a carbon copy of Obama, Sad? You saw the video I posted where he repeatedly used the exact same words and cadence right? Kinda weird or no?

  94. Sad
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink

    I love Pete. ❤️

    I don’t think we’ve seen the last of him.

    ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
    ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
    ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

  95. Jean Henry
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    Sanders’ diehard supporters are the reason he can’t win. And they for sure follow his lead. I’m voting for him to move Biden left, but he isn’t going to win. He cant even get his supporters to vote. They just show up for the parties and spout their reductive talking points in the thought vacuum of their friend groups. That’s not an effective movement.

    Bernie had twice been offered a tremendous opportunity to create fundamental necessary change and twice has been unable to rise to it with workable plans or a movement inspiring to more than a few very loud diehards.

  96. Lynne
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    I think it is funny how many Sanders people really believe that Sanders is more electable against Trump than anyone else. We have no way of knowing that.

  97. EOS
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    Current Odds for VP:

    Kamala 5:2
    Abrams 4:1
    Klobuchar 5:1
    Warren 8:1
    Buttigieg 9:1

  98. Jean Henry
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    https://politics.theonion.com/sanders-supporter-urges-importance-of-listening-to-mino-1842094286?fbclid=IwAR1zO_bCpLpaYqClcXLFOr-DKrAVOE5avNBu1Yz-67YnO0-xOqiutjWKHAs

  99. Bob
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, they are actually called polls and have a lot of science behind them. Perhaps you are a science denier.

  100. Sad
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    Don’t you remember the election in 2016?

  101. iRobert
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 6:12 pm | Permalink

    In fairness to the Sanders supporters, they might not have realized that lots of people showing up at rallies isn’t how candidates get elected. Many, like Jeff Irwin, seem really high or something, also.

  102. Oliva
    Posted March 6, 2020 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    “do what’s right for the country… which is ensuring that we rid ourselves of the least qualified, most dangerous president in American history, so that we can make headway with the kind of progressive agenda that a majority of Americans want.”

    Not necessarily easy but essential.

  103. iRobert
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    They finally called Washington State for Biden, which had their primary last week

  104. iRobert
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    Turnout in Illinois primary today has been extremely low.

    Ohio Governor has postponed that state’s primary until June.

    Florida and Arizona also good primaries today. Biden will likely win today’s three contests.

  105. iRobert
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

    Biden won the Florida primary

  106. iRobert
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 7:43 pm | Permalink

    Biden won Illinois now too.

  107. Sad
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    ZZZZZZZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZZZZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZZZZ
    ZZZZZZZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZZZZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZ
    ZZZZZZZZ ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZ
    ZZZZZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZZZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZZZZZ
    ZZZZ ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZ. ZZZ. ZZZZZ. ZZZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZZZZZZZ. ZZZZZZZ. ZZZZZ. ZZZZ
    ZZZZ. ZZZZZZZZZ. ZZZZZZZ. ZZZZZZ. ZZZZZZZ

  108. Sad
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Sleepy

  109. iRobert
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Sanders has gone to bed early tonight.

    He’s not going to speak to his supporters tonight.

  110. iRobert
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 8:50 pm | Permalink

    In Sunday’s debate, Bernie should have been allowed to go to bed early then too, and a phonograph playing a broken record be put in his place. That’s about the effect we got anyway.

  111. Sad
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

    Watching the two of them took me back to my fondest memories from childhood.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statler_and_Waldorf

  112. iRobert
    Posted March 17, 2020 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Yes, Sad. I thought the same thing.

    Two grumpy geezers.

  113. iRobert
    Posted March 18, 2020 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    Biden won Arizona.

  114. Posted March 18, 2020 at 5:11 am | Permalink

    Bernie “Broken-Record” Sanders should acknowledge he’s all but officially been beaten. His supporters failed him, and now it’s all over but the crying.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ko9TpduOhE

  115. EOS
    Posted March 18, 2020 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Don’t cry iRob, there will be another election in 4 years. At least now you have your summer free.

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