Michigan Democratic Primary open thread

Seven states are holding primaries today. And Michigan, with 147 delegates – 125 of which will be allocated on the basis of today’s primary vote – is the biggest prize. So what you do in the voting booth, my fellow Michiganders, is going to be incredibly important.

Given that Sanders has apparently ceded the south to Biden, he really needs to repeat his success of 2016, when he beat Hillary Clinton here, and proved to people that he had the ability to be competitive in the midwest. Recent polling shows Biden widening his lead in Michigan, but Sanders is investing heavily here, and polls have been off throughout this primary season. [No one really predicted for Biden to win Super Tuesday like he did.] So it could really go either way.

While either candidate would still have a path forward after losing Michigan, I suspect there’s a good chance that, if Sanders loses here, it may signal the beginning of the end of his campaign, as he’s running out of opportunities to recapture the momentum he had prior to the people of South Carolina casting their ballots. So it would be huge if Sanders could turn the tide here, demonstrating that he’s still got what it takes to win diverse industrial states like ours. And, of course, it would be incredible for Biden if he could pull out a win here, when, just last week, Sanders was favored to win by a comfortable margin.

With all of that said, I should say once again that, while neither Biden or Sanders is my first choice, both are solid candidates, and I’d be happy to back either one in the general election, as we come together to do what Congress would not, and remove a criminally-unfit, and extremely dangerous president from office.

So all I ask is that you go out and vote today, regardless of the Democratic candidate you’re supporting. Enjoy your time in the voting booth, exercising your democratic muscles, and thinking about the next vote you’ll be casting in November, which will be against Donald Trump. Try to be optimistic in spite of what we’re all living through right now. And know that, if we work together, we can defeat Donald Trump come November, and pull our nation back from the brink. Less than 40% of Americans support Donald Trump, and the only way that we can lose this is if we allow ourselves to become divided, like we did in 2016. And we cannot allow that to happen. We owe it to our kids, and to our ancestors, to be vigilant, and remain unified in our opposition to the current administration.

update: According to Nate Silver, Biden is underperforming relative to polling predictions. Even so, it looks like he’ll win the state handily. As of right now, Bernie is still leading in Washtenaw County by 1%, though.

According to FiveThirtyEight’s Nathaniel Rakich, Sanders appears to be performing significantly less well in the state than he did four years ago. “With 100 percent of Election Day precincts reporting, Sanders has won Michigan’s Kent County (home to Grand Rapids) just 49 percent to 46 percent,” he says. In 2016, he points out, Sanders won the county by 25 points. “Absentee votes there would have to be almost impossibly good for Sanders to match his 2016 win, so it just adds to the evidence that Sanders is well underperforming his previous campaign.”

It looks like Sanders is getting they youth vote, though.

OK, Michigan has been called for Biden, along with Missouri and Mississippi. I don’t see any path forward for Sanders at this point. One just hopes we can all now come together and do what needs to be done to unseat Donald Trump.

It’s also worth noting that Sanders deserves a hell of a lot of credit for moving the party to the left on a number of issues. Just because it’s looking as though he won’t be the candidate, that doesn’t mean his campaign was for nothing. His work has been instrumental in getting us to where were are, and shifting the Democratic dialogue. And we owe him a great deal.

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  1. Demetrius
    Posted March 9, 2020 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    I already took advantage of Michigan’s new, early/absentee voting rules to cast my ballot for Bernie Sanders.

    I predict Washtenaw County will also choose Bernie, but suspect Biden will win Michigan, overall.

  2. Bob
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 5:00 am | Permalink

    Do you really think Biden is solid in any way? I don’t see anything about him that’s going to work apart from his alleged love from the black community. If it’s even true. And if you just assume they vote as a group which naturally they don’t. Warren probably would have been the best, most effective president. Bernie still probably has the best chance to beat Trump. The Nation’s latest piece on Biden is a really good argument about what’s wrong with Joe.

  3. KS
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    Do not underestimate Donald Trump again. He wasn’t popular last time either. For the love of God vote for Bernie Sanders. I will not survive 4 years of Biden, and Biden is almost certain to lose to Trump. He was the far right of the Democratic party his entire career, which is why Obama picked him for a “unity” ticket. He’s even more rightwing now, whenever he’s briefly capable of putting an entire thought together. This means he can draw no contrast between himself and Trump that will be meaningful to people who aren’t already committed Democrats who voted for Hillary (and they aren’t enough!!!). His backers and advisors and consultants are all lobbyists and stakeholders in every industry that is destroying the world and getting rich off human misery: fossil fuels, private heathcare, prisons, weapons, surveillance, etc. Democrats, you believe in everything Bernie Sanders stands for, you’re just too cowardly to vote for it, because you think cowardice and self-debasement attracts Republicans. It doesn’t. It didn’t work last time. It’s not how Obama won either. Vote for what you believe in and stop crying about the trolls or the Bernie bros. Be a fucking adult and stand for something. A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for climate death, even if he wins by some ridiculous miracle, i.e. if the whole media continues to ignore his Ukraine nepotism scandal, decades of videos of him groping little girls and sniffing uncomfortable women, decades of ridiculous moronic lies on par with Trump’s, and reactionary votes for pro-globalization trade deals and other wretched things that swung the race last time. MSNBC will ignore this to stop Bernie but they won’t ignore it forever. I do not have secure heathcare, I do not have secure employment, and I have no future in this country or world if this steady economic decay marches forward. Please, please, please, do not vote to murder me just because your brain is paralyzed by fear of the trumpkin or snake emojis or whatever stupid shit you think matters more than life and death for millions of us.

  4. KS
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    I know you think you know better than Nathan Robinson but he has done his research on this one. Please read the whole thing, it is thoroughly referenced and argued: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/03/democrats-you-really-do-not-want-to-nominate-joe-biden

  5. Nate Silver
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 6:28 am | Permalink

    The polling swing toward Biden is probably the fastest in the history of the primaries.

    We have him gaining 36.2 points in national polls over the past 14 days. The previous record is John Kerry, who gained 32.3 points from 1/21 to 2/24/04 in our retrospective national average.

  6. Anonymous
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    We. need to keep the House and retake the Senate to accomplish anything of significance, and Bernie, with is “everything is rigged” campaign of grievance, isn’t a candidate who will help us do that. I know it’s painful, but it’ also true that a candidate who can’t secure a majority of Democratic primary voters probably won’t fare well in the general election. I understand your passion, but the votes of black Americans matter, and the math is the math.

  7. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Shockingly incompetent process at my voting location. Among other snafus they announced which ballots we wanted so people could hear. Totally destroyed any privacy.

  8. Anonymous
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:12 am | Permalink

    What, weren’t you proud to vote for orange Voldemort?

  9. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    With deranged morons like you running around I’d rather keep my vote to myself. There is a reason they have the little blinders. There used to be curtains you could draw to make an enclosed booth so no one could see your vote.

  10. Sad
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    Joe Biden

    The best we could do.

  11. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    Are you going to vote for Mayor Pete, Sad?

    I’m still seriously considering voting for Tulsi.

  12. Sad
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:20 am | Permalink

    I voted for Bernie

  13. Sad
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    I can’t believe Mr. Maynard said two solid candidates…..

    Do you think he really believes that ?

  14. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    HW, which party’s primary a person votes in has always been public information. Party preference is only secret in the general. The poll workers at your polling location are not doing anything new, different or wrong by openly saying which party’s primary individuals choose.

    The state of Michigan is essentially conducting the process on behalf of each party. Sometimes parties choose to conduct their own process. What’s essentially happening today in Michigan is the state is simultaneously conducting the primary voting process on behalf of both major parties. You’ll notice the Libertarians and other smaller parties are conducting their own nominating processes.

  15. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    It very much concerns me that people think Bernie will save them, like he has a magic wand or a scepter.. It concerns me that people believe Biden won’t, or that regular Dems have not been fighting for these things forever. Carter ran in universal health care for gods sake. Nixon was the first to float the idea. It’s not like we have not been trying to create change in this country for a very long time. The problem is not average Dems; the problem is half our country are conservative. It’s not that fucking easy.
    Bernie ran on attacking the Dem Party. That’s why people believe the party has caused their pain instead of the GOP. I’m going to vote for him but seriously, fuck him for making people like KS hate and even fear the party. (I’m no huge fan of the party but I see it’s value in this broad and politically diverse country) Fuck him for making them think he has this well in hand and can pull any of it’ off quickly or ever and that if he does they wouldn’t feel any other impact. I don’t think anyone is served by making it seem like Democratic change is easy it’s just those mean people over there making it hard and slow.
    I’m voting Bernie to push Biden left. I don’t want Bernie to win but I want his movement to continue. The sooner he drops out of it and someone Younger, female and less cantankerous takes his place the better. In a choice between two assholes (that others find charming— whatever) Im picking the one to the left. If I though Warren could get 15% of the vote and so have negotiating position at the convention, I’d vote for her. I wish we had organized to make it so.

    Lastly, the amount of disinformation floating around on the internet against Biden is intense right now. Please get your sources before sharing, 1) that Harvard ‘computational scientist’ who posted a study showing That Biden supporters were no more negative than any other candidates supporters DOES NOT show that Bernie bro’s didn’t exist. No study exists. The numbers he does show don’t demonstrate what he says it does. Negative tweets are not nec abusive ones. The guy is not in any Harvard registry 2) The video clip supposedly showing Biden calling for Trumps re-election is a fake. Twitter took it down. 3) No Biden is not considering putting Jaime Diamond in as Treasury secretary.

    Trump and the Russians will be playing to the outsized fears and real pain of people like KS once Biden is the nominee. These are the people they can most easily negatively influence to not vote. And that’s how they win. And yes Bernie set up the conditions for this situation with the manner in which he campaigned. He did so at cost to his own chances in the end. The most diverse and marginalized coalition actually does not want to see the Dem party derided. Because they are scared and at risk too. And they voted Biden. I hope people like KS start listening to those people too. Because they have experienced worth understanding. Because the plurality matters and if a candidate doesn’t get that he can’t win.

  16. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    When did they ever announce out loud to the whole room which primary you are voting in? Why would they do that? It negates the point of privacy: to protect people from pressure or intimidation.

    There is a check box for which one you want but they didn’t know it was there and asked out loud. Mrs. W. checked the box for a Republican ballot and got a dem ballot. When she told the worker he said rather loudly “Oh, I thought you WANTED a Democrat ballot!” Give me a fucking break.

  17. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:56 am | Permalink


    They have always done it when two separate party primaries are being conducted in the same room.

    Which party’s nominating process a person participates in has never been private. It’s always been public information.

  18. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    It was actually more of a hassle to vote Republican. It took way longer for us than the people ahead of us in line. It was because the lefty worker didn’t know how to read the application to vote and because he assumed for no reason the Mrs. wanted a dem ballot.

  19. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 9:58 am | Permalink

    I doubt it. Announce it verbally which ballot you want?

  20. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Yes, people publicly declare which party primary or caucus they intend to participate.

    Your poll worker may be an idiot, true. Most people are these days. But which party’s nominating process in which a person is participating has always been public. Here in Michigan, people used to even have to sign a public declaration of party to be able to participate in that party’s nominating process.

    This is why I think taxpayers shouldn’t have to foot the bill for the party’s nominating processes. Let the parties conduct and pay for their own damn candidate selection processes.

  21. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    “people publicly declare which party primary or caucus THEY intend to participate.”

    Same as poll workers publicly declaring which ballot YOU want?

  22. Karen T.
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Did HW say there was a “Mrs. W”? My god.

  23. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:31 am | Permalink

    HW: “Same as poll workers publicly declaring which ballot YOU want?”

    Your poll worker may have misheard or assumed for some other reason that Mrs. Warlord was choosing to vote in the Dem primary. The poll worker certainly shouldn’t assume or declare in which primary a person is choosing to participate. But to speak about it openly is not inappropriate, a violation or anything. You are participating in a publicly partisan process. They just happen to be hosting the process for two separate parties in one place for efficiency and to make the taxpayers foot the bill.

  24. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    If you had said you want to participate in the Libertarian nomination process, you would have been informed that the particular nominating process for that party will be held elsewhere and at another time. Same with any other party that isn’t one of the two big ones.

  25. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Holding both party’s primaries at the same time and in the same place also makes it easy for supporters/members of one party to vote in the opposing party’s primary. The Dems went along with this set-up because they’re idiots. The Republicans went along with it because they want to encourage their supporters to cross over and fuck up the Dem primary.

  26. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:42 am | Permalink

    But the dem and repubs were at the same time. No reason to blab to the whole room about it. He was so unfamiliar with the ballot he did not know there is a box to check for R or D. There is no reason to say anything about it. Just do your job and hand over the correct ballot hidden in the envelope.

  27. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    Karen T :HW has a wife and a Child. I KNOW. I hope the kid isn’t a girl.

  28. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    “Karen T.”

    Who da fook is dat? Never noticed her but she is leading with an insinuating comment about me.

  29. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    You don’t have to convince me people are stupid and often assholes. Preaching to the choir, HW.

  30. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    You don’t know a damn thing. You are wrong about every single thing you say, Jean. I’ve proven it over and over and over.

  31. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:55 am | Permalink

    Sad— I spent a lot of the weekend looking over Biden’s policy plans especially related to Climate and Housing. They are really good plans actually. He doesn’t cut out nuclear which may be what saves us if allowed to develop. His housing plan is better than Bernie’s because it has fewer barriers to.. housing. Bernie like much of left is super fond of set asides etc in market rate housing which usually leads to them not getting built or just a few affordable units. A lot of stuff sounds good I. Housing policy but doesn’t pencil out as feasible. They create inverse impacts to those intended. They make housing more scarce and more expensive. Bernie supports all those things.

    My main issue with Biden, besides the gross sexism of the Anita Hill hearing, is his record on banking regulation. Biden represented Delaware. Banking is to Delaware what cars are to Michigan. I liked Dingell but hated his energy policy positions. Same thing. In both cases Biden caved to prevailing winds instead of holding his own, so we need to work to shift the prevailing winds. Bernie helped with that. He’d be a terrible president.

  32. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    For the record, I’m a terrible husband and father. I’m doing it all wrong. I hope Karen doesn’t beat up on me too much about it.

  33. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    IRobert— I don’t doubt that, but my reasons for feeling shock re HW’s domestic situation aren’t just about being ‘bad’ at parenthood or intimacy and judging that without evidence. It stuns me that anyone would marry him much less procreate with him. To each his own I guess.

    HW— was I wrong about you having a wife and child? Please clarify?

  34. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    No, you said you KNOW like you know it’s fucked up any woman would have me. I have hardly ever in my whole life had a problem with that. I used to have to fend them off. Still do sometimes.

  35. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Jean, women respond well to guys like HW. He has confidence. You know how all that is.

  36. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    I would wager that HW’s wife is pretty cool and smart. Your dislike of his politics is clouding your more insightful instincts. I think Karen said what she said more out of curiosity than anything else. It’s almost like she was hoping he wasn’t spoken for.

  37. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Shoot, complete stranger girls used to come up to me at parties and shows and kiss and hug me and tell me they loved me. Now I have one lovely little honey pie all the time. Do not seem to have a problem.

  38. Oliva
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Ron Klain, Biden’s chief of staff, was “Ebola czar.” Other capable, bright, and good people have worked with/for him. It might feel good to be smartest commenter full of disdain for others who think differently, but real-life urgency is crying out. If it were to go that way, it’s easy to imagine profoundly good choices such as Abrams as VP, Warren as Treasury secretary. Cynicism and know-it-all-ism have damaged so many lives and seriously dented this country. What good really does it do to mock and trivialize others who also think, care, work for real and positive change but go about it differently? (I hope new excited young DSA members get to know and partner with the many Dem Party volunteers and see they actually are looking at their own desired reflection, can inspire and learn from each other, support each other, especially at the local level, where daily living takes place. One thoughtful action, even something said, can do so much for another.)

    Dismissiveness, bullying—The nice thing about these sicknesses is that we’re powerful to stop them in ourselves. Unlike the monster illnesses of racism and white supremacy, misogyny and sexism, homophobia, gun violence, etc., that are giant boulders that will take coordinated, committed, ongoing effort to get past, or address convincingly anyway.

  39. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 11:51 am | Permalink


  40. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    Are you a musician, HW?

    I enjoy a lot of music and know a lot of incredible musicians. I’ve been treated to some amazing music.

  41. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    It’s always nice to see you comment, Olivia.

  42. Oliva
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Thanks, iRobert.

  43. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Biden told some jackass in Detroit he’s “full of shit.”

    I’m going to go vote for him. I needed that inspiration.

  44. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    “It’s almost like she was hoping he wasn’t spoken for.“ — I invite Karen to respond to this. I can’t believe what passes here for social understanding. It’s pretty classic to think women have crushes where they feel repelled. The next step is saying she wanted me; she asked for it. IRobert , HW is not confident. His insecurities are painfully evident. Maybe a very young woman would be fooled but no one over 30.

    Olivia— who was bullying anyone here for their beliefs? Except HW which is another kettle of fish altogether. I appreciate your comment; it makes sense. Just wondering what you are referencing.

  45. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    HW it is ducked up that any woman would have you. Many terrible men have women interested In them. Many women. It’s still fucked up.

  46. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    You act like what you think about me is a fact. It’s ridiculous. Your whole outlook is. That’s why you are wrong every time.

    I’m not talking about you but there is a lot there to talk about. You’re not an incel like you stupidly call me, you’re a volcel. You could get laid if you wanted to ahahahaha! No. No one wants to be that close to you because you are so hideous. That’s a fact.

  47. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Definitely a music fanatic, iRob. Pensive and beautiful rare tune by a perennial fave:


  48. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:11 pm | Permalink

    HW— what are you talking about? I have never spoken about my sex life here nor would I.


    Here’s what I came to post:
    “Scoop: Trump told Republican senators in private lunch that he wants a payroll tax holiday *through the November election,* sources tell me. He doesn’t want taxes to go back up before voters decide whether to return him to office. Story out soon.”

    Via Twitter. Straight up bribery. Really will fuck ppl next tax season and at retirement too.

    Let’s be clear here: he’s not proposing to reduce taxation just contributions to taxation and retirement funds.

  49. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    HW I have also never called you an Incel that I recall. Bob pulls that crap, not me.

  50. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Jean, Olivia doesn’t have to spell it out. She’s a polite person, unlike you or I. We are the bullies, stupid.

    You’re so messed up you think it’s okay to call me a rapist just because I joked that Karen was hoping HW was single. You’ve got some serious issues, Jean. That has been obvious to everyone here for a long time.

    You’re wrong about HW’s personal life. I’m sure of it. You are projecting your own problems on others again.

  51. Oliva
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    Jean Henry, not today in particular but pretty much every time I read the comments here. They quickly go to name-calling, belittling. Used to not be so bad.

  52. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    It has already been established that Jean has done at least one extremely strange thing to her daughter (and Mark)—because we witnessed it! HW on the other hand has only ever said glowing things about his significant other. That is what we know.

    Only a total scumbag, exactly like Jean, would speculate, with zero evidence, that someone is not worthy (or capable) of having a healthy relationship and family. You behave like an ass, Jean.

  53. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    IRobert. I did not call you a rapist. That’s just weird. I said your logic and assumptions are part of the kind of thinking that rapists use to justify their actions. That’s easy to show. It’s normalized behavior which is part of why rape is so prevalent. But saying you have embedded sexist tropes in your thinking is not the same things as saying you are a rapist.
    I hope that makes you feel better.

    Yes Olivia it’s a cesspool here now. Deeply unfortunate. I say things here that I could say anywhere else without trouble and get attacked and beliefs and positions ascribed to me that I never made. You are safe here so long as your tone is always conciliatory but in a room overcrowded with sexist men, that’s not a position I can regularly assume in good conscience.

    Where is the line between conciliatory and complicit? That’s a hard one to parse.

    Sometimes unpleasantness or just walking away are the only truly reasonable responses.

  54. Karen T.
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Given what I have seen here I find it difficult to believe that any woman, let alone multiple women, have thrown themselves at HW.

  55. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    By the way, Oliva, I apologize for addressing you as Olivia. I don’t edit or spellcheck my comments. I type them on a primitive iPhone 5, and autocorrect often changes what I type.

  56. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:46 pm | Permalink

    How is it asking you to be conciliatory to just not be an offensive asshole? You attack me every day.

    Pretty sure you have speculated a number of times on my ability to get and please women sexually so why don’t you remember that? Something wrong with your brain, Jean?

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Tell me what you have seen then, Karen. Quote some of my most worst statements.

  58. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    Karen T., you say that as though you believe women choose who they take an interest in based on their comments on blogs.

  59. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    HW I doubt I did that because I do t do that. But if anyone could get me there, it’s you.

    I have expressed concern for your wife and child based on my assessment of your hypersensitivity and bloated ego, your misogyny and your abusive tendencies. I would imagine it’s not fun to get into an argument with you. And functional intimate relationships involve disputes.

    Happy to be wrong of I am. If not, I hope they know about Safehouse.

    IRobert — why would Karen T talk to you after you suggested she was crushing on HW? You were way off base. Read the room.

    Speaking for myself, I think HW makes a clear enough impression here to turn most women off. There isn’t much that can overcome the ugliness of a mind so full of delusion, rage and paranoia.

  60. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Sigh. It was nice, however briefly, to have some voices of reason in these parts.

    I wonder how many we lose every time HW, FF, and IRobert post?

  61. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    Karen T. Is sweet on HW.

  62. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    He’s married Karen T. You’re going to have to keep looking. Jean seems interested.

  63. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Jean, speak for your wacky self. You base your life on trying to destroy people who support Donald Trump. That’s the only reason you have decided to wage your little propaganda campaign against me. It’s the purest example of the projection phenomenon I have ever seen in your life.

    You are going to marshal all your sliming, shit-flinging forces to try to make it seeem like I’m a bad man. Okay there, jeanie. I heard you verbally abusing your baby daddy the first time I met you. Taking an honest look at the way you treat others would explain why you feel a need to try to slime people all the time.

  64. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

    seen in my life that is

  65. Bob
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Don’t drag me into your bullshit, Jean.

  66. Jean Henry
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:36 pm | Permalink

    Bob have you or have you not suggested that HW is an incel? Because I remember you doing so.
    It doesn’t seem like something you would make an effort to deny. Unless shitting on me is more appealing than the truth.

  67. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Biden has won Michigan fairly easily.

    He also won Missouri and Mississippi.

  68. Bob
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Jean, I don’t even know what an Incel is and I don’t think enough of you to look it up. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about most of the time if I even bother to read it.
    I caught your earlier comment about “voting for Bernie to push Biden to the left.” It’s hilarious that you think you’re gaming the system or anything is going to push Biden left of his terrible voting history. He’s worse than Hillary and short of this virus defeating Trump, he’s going to lose.

  69. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    Jean’s just had another bad day, apparently, and is looking to fight with anyone. Don’t take the bait, Bob.

  70. Paul Krugman by proxy
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    Just to say the obvious: Sanders has a big choice now. He has no chance of winning the Democratic nomination. But if he withdraws gracefully, he can play a large role in shaping the party’s agenda; he does have a significant core of support, and Dems need those voters, or he can hang on, bashing Biden for weeks or months to come, which will both lose any leverage he now has and help Trump. I wish I knew which route he’ll choose.

  71. Anonymous
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 8:31 pm | Permalink

    My sister in law lives in Boston and I got her an AOC comic book as well as AOC shirt and buttons from when AOC was last in Michigan. She’s a big believer and wanted to support Warren. I thought her alternate would have been Sanders, but after South Carolina, she ended up voting for Biden, as did her friends. It surprised me at first, but I understand her reasoning.

  72. iRobert
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    Biden looks good to win every primary tonight.

  73. Anonymous
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

    According to Jessica Webster….

    Jessica Webster

    Only 15 votes separate Biden and Sanders here in Washtenaw County. 15 votes!!
    1100 people did what I was tempted to do: they still voted for @ewarren.

  74. Demetrius
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

    It now appears that Joe Biden will win the Michigan Democratic primary, and therefore, the Democratic nomination.

    I find it impossible to fathom how the Democratic Party hasn’t managed to learn even a single lesson from their devastating 2016 loss.

    Time to get ready for (at least) four more years of Trump/Pence.

  75. dirtgrain
    Posted March 10, 2020 at 10:39 pm | Permalink

    Corrupt corporatist Biden is our best option? How do people not vote for the candidate who will do something about rising healthcare costs? You get what you ask for.

  76. Lynne
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    I voted for Warren! I honestly weighed the pros and the cons of Biden and Sanders and although they do have different strengths and weaknesses, they came out about the same for me.

  77. Anonymous
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 2:40 am | Permalink

    A candidate can only do something about rising health care costs if they get elected and has the support of elected legislators. I doubt that person would be Sanders, and I guess that other people doubts. The man can’t even get his own supporters to come out in an open primary, forget the general election. I was under the impression that we were not in favor of ruling by executive order.

  78. Anonymous
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    Also, I remember somebody saying that in the last election, a vote for Stein was a vote for Trump, as there was no way Stein was a credible potential winner. Yet people are voting for Warren even as she withdraws from the nominating process. ????

  79. iRobert
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 6:09 am | Permalink

    Demetrius, Bernie lost Washtenaw. How’s Jeff Irwin taking it?

  80. John Brown
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 7:25 am | Permalink

    Once again Dems prove to be risk averse pussies. When the fascists turn violent we are so fucked if people don’t start growing a spine. There are some good prices on AR15s (not 14s you senile ole coot Joe) over on Armslist.com, if any progressives want to practice some concrete gun control by taking possession of some 2A cultists guns.

  81. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:06 am | Permalink

    “if Biden were a different politician — if, like Sanders, he was strongly ideological — I might also doubt his malleability. But Biden… is a creature of the party. He doesn’t buck the mainstream, he accommodates it. He doesn’t reject the center, he tries to claim it. You saw this during the Obama administration, when Biden reversed himself on a career of moderation to embrace and champion the former president’s most liberal policies.
    If the two Sanders campaigns have, over five years, pulled the center of the Democratic Party as far left as it’s been since before Ronald Reagan, then Biden is likely to hew to that center, not challenge it.”

  82. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:07 am | Permalink

    John Brown sees no irony in calling over 60% of the Black population pussies. He also apparently doesn’t get why they want no part of his revolution that attacks the Dem Party, the electoral process and the free press.

  83. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    Michigan exits —
    Biden wins black voters 66% to 29%
    White non-college educated men (Sanders won them by 22 points in 2016) – Sanders 47%, Biden 45%

    What does it mean when the people your movement is intended to serve most vote against you? For Berners, it is apparently time to attack those voters. No moments of self-reflection might have something to do with why you assholes always lose.
    Bernie ran against the Dem Party. The black community is its most loyal constituent base. That’s why they voted Biden. We already have a guy in office who derides the major parties, the electoral process and the press. And they hate that guy.

    They know and trust Joe Biden. It’s not for me to say whether that’s fair. They also disproportionately fight in foreign wars and so Bernie’s rhetoric about that may not sit well with someone who lost a child.

    Revolutionary change has risks; it has disproportionately NEGATIVELY impacted marginalized communities in the past. They know that. Young people do not. They might have bought the change Bernie was selling if he didn’t disrespect the institutions they feel are the only ones that protect them.

    I know Bernie had a hopeful message and the people who support him gleaned that, but his overall projection in debates and stump speeches was negative. In the end I think Bernie has always shown a lack of understanding of the Black voter and community. He tried to get it right this go around. No talk of ‘It’s hard to live in the ghetto’ etc. But I just think he was deep in his own world and belief system and could not understand a yearning for stability among those who need it most. And I don’t think his supporters who, in their fervor, are regularly dismissive of other points of view, helped him any.

    If Bernie had run solely on ‘I will provide a social safety net and reform that will provide the greatest era of stability ever seen in this country’, I think he would have won. If he had left his mitts off the Dem Party and the Press and accepted criticism with grace and humility he might have won. But he ran against stuff more than for it. And he ran against stuff people care about instead of the stuff that actually harms them.

    Bernie ran against the stuff that harms him and his candidacy as much as he ran against what harms others. That central conceit is why I think he failed.

  84. John Brown
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:44 am | Permalink


    Going forward from today I’m as big of a Biden supporter as anyone. And outta the original choices Bernie ranked around 4 or 5 for me. To much rancor, not enough soft skills. But risk aversion to women candidates, candidates of color, and meaningful health care reform have all been clearly on display this primary. What a bunch of sheeple we’ve all become. Fearful to upset the status quo handed to us by the oligarchs. Brainwashed to accept that striving for meaningful change will be punished by fascist reactionaries, so dont bother. Not entirely different from 170 years ago as far as the balance of political and economic power.

  85. Demetrius
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    It was amazing how much – in the weeks leading up to Super Tuesday, and especially after – the Democratic Party establishment and much of its official press (NYT, WaPo, CNN) aligned around the idea of Biden as the “safe,” “mainstream” “electable,” choice … and admonished primary voters who were considering other options that Biden was the only candidate who could beat Trump.

    In many cases, they seem to have re-cycled some of their opinion pieces from four years ago, merely substituting “Joe Biden” instead of “Hillary Clinton.”

    Closer to home, it was also disappointing (once again) to see so many of Michigan’s establishment Dems (Whitmer, Granholm, Blanchard, Duggan …) all lining up at the last minute to endorse Uncle Joe.

    Now, what’s done is done. Once again, Democrats have decided they would rather cling to their “safe,” “predictable” standard-bearers (Schumer, Pelosi … Clinton … Biden … ) than actually offering any fresh candidates, or new ideas.

    After watching Biden’s performance in the debates, and in the various primaries, I have no confidence in his ability to run a successful national race.

    With the stakes so high (the critical need to defeat Trump/Pence), I’ll say it again: I simply can’t fathom how Democrats have failed to learn even a single lesson from their stunning defeat in 2016.

  86. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Demetrius– Or it could be that loyal Democratic party members do not want to support a guy who takes direct aim at the party as it’s nominee.

    I do no understand why the Dem Party not liking Sanders seems like a conspiracy to his supporters. Of course, they don’t.

    And it turns out most Dem Party voters aren’t to keen on it either.

    A whole lot of the people you call ‘ risk-averse’ are our most vulnerable citizens. So hell yeah they are risk-averse. They are also the Dem party’s most loyal supporters. And they did not want to see Bernie tear down the party the way Trump destroyed the GOP.

    Thank god for the wisdom o the Black voter. Fuck anyone who claims to support them and then calls them pussies.

  87. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    You guys are being too hard on each other.
    It takes an abundance of courage to vote for either Biden or Sanders. One shows signs of dementia and the other is incapable of doing basic math. Too much courage is a vice—called recklessness.

  88. John Brown
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    News flash: “White lady from Whitemore Lake plays race card on behalf of tens of thousands of African Americans”. We shall see how wise it was to have a declining geriatric abstraction of mainstreaminess versus a smarter candidate with melanin or a vagina, or a menorah.

    I’m outta interactive mood here to do some real stuff. Resume your psychologically abusive circle jerk with the fascist trolls.

  89. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Anyone using the moniker “John Brown” should not be using the term “race card” either.

    My analysis comes from the testimonies and analysis of people of color BTW. I’m not just making shit up. Since no one here seems to read anything written by POC who disagree with them, it’s useless to convey the complexity of their perspectives.

    I would have preferred all your chosen demographics btw. Biden was my third to last choice. He shared that space with Bernie. Bloomberg and Tulsi were at the bottom. I voted Bernie to move Biden left. I don’t know what I would have done if Bernie was winning. Of course, if Bernie was winning he would have run a less criminally stupid race..

  90. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    “It takes an abundance of courage to vote for either Biden or Sanders. One shows signs of dementia and the other is incapable of doing basic math. ” –FF

    Says the Trumper who supports a candidate who is both mad, stupid from birth and functionally illiterate and innumerate. And I haven’t even listed his worst qualities.

    your double standard is showing again, FF.

  91. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Thank goodness there is a ‘stable genius’ also running for president, right FF?

  92. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    Trump does not show any signs of dementia. Biden does. It will naturally be a huge obstacle for voters.

  93. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    “Anyone using the moniker “John Brown” should not be using the term “race card” either.”—JH

    I think it would be great to read more from Jean explaining this statement she just made. I also think it would be great to hear John Brown explain why he accused JH of playing the race card.

  94. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Fuckin’ Stalinist who calls people who have nothing to do with Russia “ruskie stooges”. You are not a satirist. You are a joke. Both of you are. No one likes this shit. Black people tend to be good at recognizing bigoted attitudes. Many, many of them would object to hatred of white men you both exhibit.

    It’s like when the drunk black man from Detroit announced to the captive standing room only crowd on the bus that white people don’t care about black people. I was like “You are just going to talk about white people as a group like that?” The black students next to me responded to him like “Man, this is 2010. There is no need to divide us like that…”

    You aren’t winning brownie points. You aren’t doing any good. You’re not fighting racism. You are perpetuating it. Case in point: Jussie Smollet, who carefully crafted a hate-crime hoax to incite racial hatred in the USA is your hero.

  95. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    “My analysis comes from the testimonies and analysis of people of color BTW. I’m not just making shit up. Since no one here seems to read anything written by POC who disagree with them, it’s useless to convey the complexity of their perspectives.”

    It is a shame that the MM community is not adequately prepared to comprehend Jean’s summary of the complex perspectives of 45 million black people.

  96. Lynne
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    Anonymous, primaries are different than general elections. One important way that they are different is that no matter what, a Dem will win. It is true that a vote for Warren is a vote for whoever wins the primary but as I have no preference between Sanders and Biden, I am ok that my Warren vote was essentially a vote for Biden.

    JH, it may have been me who said HW was an incel. He certainly sounds like one. I still think it is funny that so many people think finding a partner is based only on merit though. I mean lots of really horrible people are married. And lots of people who simply are socially awkward who are not. I am always glad to hear of anyone’s romantic success though because it seems to make people happier and less awful. I now shudder to think of how HW would be if he really were an incel!!

    JB, if you are interested I can repeat what some of my black friends said about why they voted for Biden. It had nothing to do with risk FWIW. Of course, this is just my bubble which is mostly upper-middle-class college-educated folks who perhaps are in an economic position where they are not as fearful as those who are poorer.

  97. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Lynne, you have never articulated an argument against me based on what I actually say. Your only rationale is Trumps is da debbil so he support da debbil.

  98. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 11:19 am | Permalink

    Demetrius and John Brown: Here is a perspective worth reading.

    I’ve talked to TOO MANY black Southern voters this week (and during my life) I wanna stop and explain the concept of “the establishment” to some people and why a lot of black Southern voters will NEVER vote for Bernie.
    Growing up, my family only talked revolutionary politics. I didn’t go to school until age 12 so I didn’t know about political parties. (I swear this is true) I thought “Democrats” was a religion. My grandma would pop u in the mouth if you said anything bad about a Dem.
    Here’s why
    In a lot of small towns in the South, black people are generally on their own. There is no outside help. Activists, people on the ground doing work, and local political leaders all come from the same pot. There is no real distinction.
    My piano teacher growing up was also the NAACP president who was also a city councilperson. Sometimes I had to wait for her to finish with someone who was harassed by the cops. Sometimes there was a meeting about a local restaurant who wouldn’t serve black teens.
    If it was a voting day, I had to miss a lesson because she had to work the polls.
    Shortly after Mike Brown was killed, I went to Ferguson. As soon as I to Florissant Rd. folks asked me to help unload a truck filled with food, water, etc. where people could come and get it.
    I don’t remember the woman and the man’s name but he was from a local mosque and she was on the local Dem committee. Because of the protests, schools were closed. I never thought about this, but they made a good point that only someone in the community would know:
    If the kids were home all day but their parents still had to work, who was going to pay for and provide that extra meal they missed?

    A few years ago, I did a story about a third-world hookworm epidemic in Lowndes County, Ala.
    Lowndes County, Ala.: The Place God Forgot
    The woman who explained the problem to me was Catherine Coleman Flowers, who has worked on environmental justice in the South for years. The hookworms happened because a lot of people couldn’t afford septic tanks, so they “straight-piped” the waste away from their homes
    Coleman-Flowers didn’t discover the hookworm problem because she’s some kind of expert. She was working in the county trying to help people in this 73% black county solve its waste problems. It was only when SHE got sick and asked a dr to test her was the hookworm was discovered.
    If it wasn’t for her, we might not know why people in the area were dying at such a high rate because scientists literally thought the parasite didn’t exist in America.
    I was once involved in what ended up being a 1-man protest (long story, read it here)
    That Time I Staged a 1-Man Die-In, or … Why I’m Banned From the Apple Store
    Police chiefs from 2 different jurisdictions were crouched over me threatening me with arrest. They said I’d be locked up all weekend if I couldn’t make bail.
    But what they didn’t know is that a local councilwoman had already arranged lawyers and bail for anyone who was arrested
    Again, there ain’t no help for black people EXCEPT black people. Look at photos of protests for Trayvon Martin in Fla. or EJ Bradford Jr. in Birmingham or Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge. Those well-meaning, progressive white liberals are nowhere to be found.
    All we have is the institutions, organizations and relationships we built. That’s why politicians come to black churches in the south. That’s why a lot of activists down here are also educators and religious leaders. It’s why Dem. Party meetings take place in church basements.
    That is quite literally “the establishment” for us.
    Unlike someone who live in blue and progressive areas, their lives depend on politics. It’s why I’ve found black Southern black voters are more educated on the issues than any other group.
    Admittedly, that comes with cynicism.
    Here is an example:
    1 woman told me that Bernie is too “obsessed” with M4A. She believes he’ll sell anything out to get it done. Then she shocked the f*ck out of me by explaining something I had never heard of.
    She explained that she had read Bernie’s M4A plan and didn’t like it because it would essentially eliminate private insurance. And, she said, negotiating prescription drugs removed financial incentives for innovating.
    She doesn’t think pharmaceutical companies and insurance lobbyists would ever let it happen.
    “I want to eat anything I want without gaining weight. But it won’t happen. The way he [Bernie] has it, it will never happen. Ever. I like the public option more.”
    She spent her Super Tues. driving people from her community center to the polls in Ala.
    Back to the original point.
    A lot of these people pay a lot of attention to politics. You can criticize them but you can’t say they are uninformed.
    And many of them have the same criticism of Bernie Sanders:

    “He ain’t no Democrat.”

    And they’re right. He has not only criticized the party (God knows I have) but he has denigrated “the establishment” and distanced himself from people like Jim Clyburn and John Lewis.
    I shrug it off but, to a lot of people, you’re talking about their church members, their piano teachers, the people that help them when they are the lowest.
    Those people see that. And to them, Bernie is just another progressive white man with great-sounding “ideas.”
    They know Bernie’s record. They know about his history. They also know about unfulfilled promises. It’s not that they trust Biden more than they trust Bernie —A lot of them will NEVER be convinced to trust one white man over another white man.

    WHat has Biden ever done for black people?


    Neither has Sanders. For a lot of them, NO white person has ever had their best interest at heart.
    A lot of them don’t even care about Biden’s relationship with Obama, as some people claim. He has another 40-year relationship that is more important:

    That D” beside his name.

    To them, that’s the “establishment” they trust.

    They all they got”


  99. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    FF- https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/16/playing-the-race-card-racism-black-experience

  100. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 11:56 am | Permalink


    Any moron can understand that the use of the term “race card” can be in many cases construed as an attempt to shut an individual conversation down or as an attempt invalidate an individual voice/ experience. We don’t need a generalized explanation, from an individual, who claims to be representing the thoughts of a group.

    I am asking Jean Henry to explain to JB why, in your opinion, JB should not have used the term “race card”in this specific case. We all know Jean has ideas. I think it would be great to witness you apply your ideas to a concrete reality in a way that makes sense.

    ….And it would be great if JB responded.

  101. Bob
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    The only good thing I’m feeling today is that the numbers show that Biden is definitely more popular than Hillary by a mile. Given the voters Trump has lost and this disaster that is now officially a pandemic, Biden can probably beat him. If they can keep him focused on the teleprompter and he does do anything too stupid, it’s doable. He sucks. Atrocious voting record. He’s a boob but still better than DJT. Just put Obama out there to do the speechifying.

  102. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    I’m also hoping they school Biden on not pointing fingers at people or touching people without invitation and generally teach him to control his body when feeling feelings– like he’s a 5-year-old.

  103. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Biden IS more popular than HRC despite a less progressive record because …

    See, misogyny, general
    See, former Sanders supporters supporting other candidates and recognizing the misogyny in camp Sanders this time.
    See a 30 year long GOP campaign to malign her hinging on latent misogyny.

  104. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    FF- I don’t think liberals should use terms like ‘race card’ without serious consideration about the origins and use of that phrase and whether its use is appropriate or dimwitted and reatcionary. I feel the same way about the use of the phrase ‘welfare queen’ FWIW.

    I doubt John Brown needs me to explain more.

  105. Bob
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Fucking misogyny hysteria. People just plain don’t like HRC. Middle America made up their minds thirty years ago when she mocked Tammy Wynette on 60 Minutes and they never changed their opinions. If Michelle Obama had run she would have done fine. Or Oprah. Or plenty of other smart, capable women. Give it up. You are just plain wrong.

  106. EOS
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    How many here think that Biden appears more popular due to the crossover voting by persons who will vote for Trump in the general? I’m guessing many dislike Socialism more than corruption, but I could be wrong.

  107. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Bob– Did you support Warren like you said you would?
    Was the reason electability?

  108. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Contented sigh


  109. Bob
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    I’ve supported Warren for years. Defended her to people who thought she was not good enough to consider. Many of them smart, educated women. Did I do like Lynne and vote for her yesterday, even though she was out of the race? No. That’s fucking stupid. Would I have voted for her in the general, as I did HRC? Of course. I never thought she would get that far. Not because she’s a woman but because of the Pocahontas stuff and her occasional lapses regarding her resume. I hope Biden picks her, though he surely won’t.

  110. Posted March 11, 2020 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Bob, if you don’t think that the Hillary hate is rooted DEEPLY in misogyny, you are mistaken. What happens when a woman runs for office is that opinions about her change*. Frankly, there were plenty of smart, capable women who ran for president in 2020 and none of them did well. I think it may have been indirect misogyny in that case. People are worried that a woman can’t beat Trump. A LOT of people. That worry affected their votes.


  111. Posted March 11, 2020 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    This is how Bob often sounds to me


  112. Bob
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    From the person who wasted a vote on someone who was officially out of the race. You really showed us. It’s so ridiculous that you will fight to the death to defend Hillary Clinton. She is probably literally the only candidate who would have lost to Trump. But stick to that lame narrative. Disliking Clinton’s voting record (though still voting for her) makes a guy a misogynist. Dumb.

  113. iRobert
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    Take it, Bob. I joked that Karen was disappointed that HW is married, and that made me a rapist by Jean’s standards.

    You’re lucky Lynne isn’t black anymore, and Jean isn’t black yet. You would be identified as a klansman by now.

  114. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    I know you all won’t listen to me about this but citing how your feminist women friends disagree with Lynne or I dies not mean we aren’t right or that our criticism isn’t legitimate. Feminists do not agree on everything. Not a monolith— there’s a whole lot of negotiating with the majority culture that goes on and that leads to lots of different individual political priorities.

  115. Jean Henry
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:09 pm | Permalink

    iiRobert I never called you a rapist. I said your sexist line of reasoning was the kind that is used to legitimize rape. You seem to really want me to call you a Rapist or want people to believe you’ve been accused of rape. What’s that about?

  116. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    “your sexist line of reasoning was the kind that is used to legitimize rape’

    Mental illness

  117. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    Hanxy with the C-virus. What are the chances?

  118. iRobert
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Jean, you’re comments trivialize the very traumatic experience of rape. When you compare every rude or insulting comment any man makes toward any woman as being in any way relating to rape, you are trivializing that very real and very traumatic experience. It shows how insensitive you are to actual survivors of such a trauma.

    You are an abusive asshole, Jean. Of all the commenters here, you are the one most expressive of toxic masculinity. You have threatened violence against at least one person here. Your abusive nature is very clearly that which is displayed by spouse abusers and child abusers. Your sharing with us that you call your daughter a bitch was a big clue as to what sort of person you are. I’m not suggesting you have the thinking of an abuser. I’m suggesting you are an abuser. People have seen it first hand in the real world. People aren’t confronting you about it because they know how you’d respond and don’t want to trigger that.

  119. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

    “Feminists do not agree on everything. Not a monolith…”


  120. iRobert
    Posted March 11, 2020 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    Jean speaks for no one. No one would ever chose Jean to speak for them, and for good reason. The worst thing that could ever happen to any group, cause or perspective is to have Jean self-appoint as champion for that group, cause, or perspective.

    Even those of us who are mentally ill do not want you speaking for us. You’d make us look bad.

  121. Bob
    Posted March 12, 2020 at 5:00 am | Permalink


  122. iRobert
    Posted March 12, 2020 at 7:21 am | Permalink


    No one would ever choose Jean to speak for them.

    I don’t mind saying that again. It deserves repeating. It really can’t be emphasized enough.

  123. Posted March 12, 2020 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    OMG. The sexism you guys regularly display here is atrocious. Seriously. I know you don’t see it but trust me, it isn’t an accident that there are few women on this site.

    Bob, I didn’t throw away my vote! I just didn’t care which old white guy gets the nomination or not much anyway. If voting for Warren wasn’t an option, I would have voted for Biden.

  124. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 12, 2020 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    All bark, no bite Lynne. You never have a rationale. You think it is sufficiently damaging to just say ‘sexist’.

  125. Posted March 12, 2020 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    HW. I just know that going deeper and explaining specifically why I think you guys are sexist is pointless. I am not saying it for you anyways. I am saying it a little bit for Jean to let her know that the other woman here on the regular sees it too and also for any women who might stumble onto this thread. It isn’t even about damaging anyone. It is more about acknowledging the sexism in a climate where the men who are dishing out the misogyny deny it and then even go so far as to gaslight their victims as you do.

  126. iRobert
    Posted March 12, 2020 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    It’s not the sexism that keeps women away from this blog. It’s good taste.

  127. Posted March 12, 2020 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    iRobert, well that too!

  128. Frosted Flakes
    Posted March 12, 2020 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    If any person with a nurturing personality wanders onto this thread they should definitely talk to Lynne directly before they form any judgments…. They should ask Lynne to tell her “funny joke” about how if she gets Corona virus she is going to go to aTrump Rally with unwashed hands and cough on people.


  129. iRobert
    Posted March 12, 2020 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, your hatred of men would be accurately categorized as “sexism” as well. I’m not judging though. I hate men too. So you see, the few men with whom I associate all like women more than they like men. We tolerate each other just barely. I have what seems at times an almost instinctual hostility toward men who don’t like women. I tend to spend a lot more of my time in the company of women. Most of them like men. I don’t try to argue with them about it, but I do feel sorry for them. The gay men I know all like women, but aren’t attracted to them sexually. They seem attracted to them in every other way though, so we get along.

  130. Posted March 12, 2020 at 1:09 pm | Permalink

    Pointing out the sexism of men is not the same thing as a hatred of men, iRobert.

  131. iRobert
    Posted March 12, 2020 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    You’ve expressed hatred toward men at times, Lynne. I wasn’t referring to those times you were pointing out the sexism of men. I can tell you don’t realize it when you do it.

  132. Bob
    Posted March 15, 2020 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

    Bernie just told America to YouTube Bidens lies and Joe is doubling die

  133. Bob
    Posted March 15, 2020 at 7:47 pm | Permalink

    Double Down, that is

  134. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 15, 2020 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    “HW. I just know that going deeper and explaining specifically why I think you guys are sexist is pointless. I am not saying it for you anyways. I am saying it a little bit for Jean to let her know that the other woman here on the regular sees it too and also for any women who might stumble onto this thread. It isn’t even about damaging anyone. It is more about acknowledging the sexism in a climate where the men who are dishing out the misogyny deny it and then even go so far as to gaslight their victims as you do.”

    If you can’t articulate what you think is wrong with someone then maybe it’s best not to throw accusations like that around. Don’t stand around barking. Go in for the kill like I do. You can’t, can you? All bark, no bite Lynne.

  135. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted March 15, 2020 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

    How do I not treat men and women the same? If you attack me I will slay you with knowledge. I do it to everyone here who thinks it’s a good idea to try out.

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