“Mark my words,” I said back in July of 2017. “The closer Trump comes to impeachment, the more he’ll talk about God.”
Well, guess what? Yesterday, less than 24 hours after the House voted 232 to 196 to pass a resolution setting the ground rules for his impeachment, Donald Trump, with the help of televangelist Paula White, convened a group of evangelical pastors at the White House to pray for him. While I take some pleasure in knowing that Donald Trump, a devoutly immoral germaphobe, must have absolutely hated every second that these self-anointed prophets spent pressing their sweaty hands against him, it saddens me to think that a significant number of Americans will see these images of false piety, like the one above, and interpret them as evidence that Donald Trump, the ‘pussy grabbing’, porn star-fucking racist, is somehow a paragon of so-called Christian family values.
The real takeaway from the above photo is this — Donald Trump needs low information voters to stay by his side through the impeachment, and the easiest way to reach a good number of these folks is by talking about faith. It’s sad, but true.
And Donald Trump didn’t stop with the above photo op. He also officially brought televangelist Paula White onto his White House team, where, according to the New York Times, she’ll be advising the President on his Faith and Opportunity Initiative, which, according to the Times, “aims to give religious groups more of a voice in government programs devoted to issues like defending religious liberty and fighting poverty”… Here, with more on White’s new role in the Trump administration, is an excerpt from the New York Times.
…Among Christians, however, Ms. White is a divisive figure. Her association with the belief that God wants followers to find wealth and health — commonly called the prosperity gospel — is highly unorthodox in the faith and considered heretical by many. And experts on religion in politics said that Ms. White’s ascendancy was unlike any other relationship between a president and a faith adviser in modern times.
…The move is “a very ominous sign” and signals that “Christian narcissism” has come into the White House, said the Rev. William J. Barber II, who organized the Moral Mondays protests in North Carolina and who spoke at the Democratic National Convention in 2016.
“The so-called prosperity gospel is a false gospel,” he said, comparing it to a theology that justified slavery because of economic prosperity. “It is an attempt to interpret the gospel to be primarily about personal wealth and personal power, which is contrary to the theology of Jesus where the good news was always focused on caring for the poor, the least of these, the stranger, the sick.”
…Ms. White led a pentecostal-leaning church, recently renamed City of Destiny, with thousands of members near Orlando, Fla. She stepped down as senior pastor in May and announced plans to start a university and 3,000 new churches…
While it’s not known whether or not the President will be joining White in this new business enterprise of hers, it is worth noting that White has said previously that she and Donald Trump have talked in the past of opening a church together. [If you thought that Trump University was a scam, just wait for Trump Church.]
Here, to give you an idea of what White is all about, is video of her at the pulpit, preaching about the “superior blood of Jesus.”
The phrase "The superior blood of Jesus" may be right out of the Bible, but it definitely has a White Power ring to it, doesn't it? pic.twitter.com/siVCr1BU1J
— Mark Maynard (@MarkAMaynard) November 2, 2019
One last thing… White not only preaches the prosperity gospel, but she suggests that her followers adhere to a religious principle known as “first fruit,” which, in practice, means that she, as god’s representative on earth, should be given the first month of her followers’ salaries. [The idea is that “all firsts belong to god,” and that he should be paid tribute from your annual harvest before you sit down to enjoy the bounty with your own family.]
“Right now I want you to click on that button, and I want you to honor God with his first fruits offering,” she can be heard to say in a video on her website. “January is the beginning of a new year for us in the Western world. Let us give to God what belongs to him: the first hours of our day, the first month of the year, the first of our increase, the first in every area of our life. It’s devoted…. The principle of first fruits is that when you give God the first, he governs the rest,” White says in the video. “When you honor this principle, it provides the foundation and structure for God’s blessings and promises in your life. It unlocks deep dimensions of spiritual truths that literally transform your life. When you apply this, everything comes in divine alignment for his plan and promises for you. When you don’t honor it, whether through ignorance or direct disobedience, there are consequences.”
That’s right. When you comply, and hand over your “first fruits,” good things will happen. And, when you don’t, either through “ignorance or direct disobedience,” you can be sure that there will be hell to pay… So you’ve better pay up.
And, yes, this con woman now has an office in the White House, and a tax-payer subsidized platform from which to build her empire of grift.
update: There seems to have been some confusion over my Twitter comment, copied above, about White’s reference to the “superiority” of Christ’s blood. For what it’s worth, I wasn’t suggesting that she’s a white nationalist. As I tried to explain in the following comment, I just found it worth noting that white nationalists use similar words and phrases. And, yes, I get that it comes from the Bible. That doesn’t make it any less troublesome.
I didn’t say that her followers were all white. It wouldn’t surprise me to hear that a good number of them were black. Gullibility, I’m sad to say, traverses all racial lines… You seem to be hung up on one thing I said, which is that I didn’t like the line, “the superior blood of Christ”. And, yes, I did call that out. My spidey senses get activated whenever anyone talks about blood and superiority. I didn’t mean to imply, however, that she was running a white power ministry. I have no reason to believe she does. I simply don’t like it when people infer bloodline superiority in any context.
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Aloha, Everything in my life seems to have devolved since the late 70’s. I had a print shop (the remnants of what had once been a co-op community press) which did printing for a religious charlatan. Printed “prayer cards”, back in the day’s before digital info, everything was done through mass mailings . Pounding out the prayer cards on the old ab dick was easy money. It must have generated good cash for the minister as well. These were back in the Tammy Baker day’s, when you couldn’t pile hair any higher, or wear any less gold.
Rev. Shark ( I have obviously buried the shister’s name) would occasionally drop by the shop, in his chauffeur driven caddie, with his wife. In addition to the mass “prayer card” mailings he also mass marketed trips to the “holy land”.
I was a 1st. amendment fanatic back in those days and would crank up the printing presses for anyone. Today, maybe not. We all have regrets.
I don’t know why Mark insists on reinforcing the false notion that Jesus was white. I told him to stop doing that but I guess he is still having a hard time letting go of his white power roots.
Oh, I’m aware that Jesus was a man of color. I suspect, however, that most evangelicals aren’t hanging photos of him in their homes that look like this.
I’d also like to make it clear that my issue isn’t with Christianity, but with those who would manipulate well-intentioned people of faith for their own selfish purposes.
“The bottom line is that Donald Trump needs low-information voters to stay by his side through the impeachment, and the easiest way to reach some of these people is by talking about faith.”
Here is the thing, Mark: Based upon what you have written here, I have zero confidence that you even understand what Paula White is even saying. Take the clip you provided… You don’t seem to understand how people who share her theological orientation understand perfectly what she is saying and how her expression stands in clear principled contrast to the political/theological orientation of someone like reverend Barber. Instead you choose to assume that there is some sort of superficial-selfish- idiocy happening amongst Paula White’s followers. Dude, you are making that assumption from a position of extreme ignorance and arrogance. It is kind of psycho that you would feel entitled to pass judgment on what she was saying in that clip, in such a twistedly random way, without basic knowledge about her theological perspective. The least you could do is understand that a lot of her supporters are in fact black.
Comparing her congregation to the very white booing Nationals World Series spectators I would guess that she has 30 black people to every 1 black person attending that World Series game you seemed to like so much.
The prosperity gospel is anti-Christian. Read the Bible FF. The make up of those who follow it has no bearing on whether or not Mark’s points are legitimate. Much less the make up of those watching the World Series. Calling them psycho is a bit much, no? The White Supremacy thing was a bit of a reach, but I have no doubt that some people see that bit of scripture as legitimacy for White Supremacy. People twist the lessons of the Bible to all ends. But the teachings of Jesus exist in direct contrast to those of the prosperity gospel.
In my experience, most voters left and right are low information, FWIW.
It’s also clear that Trump is not one bit religious and has little or no familiarity with scripture. Maybe he is learning something about it now, but he chose a sycophant to be his adivisor, as is his practice and requirement.
I didn’t say that her followers were all white. It wouldn’t surprise me to hear that a good number of them were black. Gullibility, I’m sad to say, traverses all racial lines… You seem to be hung up on one thing I said, which is that I didn’t like the line, “the superior blood of Christ”. And, yes, I did call that out. My spidey senses get activated whenever anyone talks about blood and superiority. I didn’t mean to imply, however, that she was running a white mower ministry. I have no reason to believe she does. I simply don’t like it when people infer bloodline superiority in any context.
Jean,
I’m sorry, are you calling Paula White anti-Christian? Are you saying those that follow her are following anti-Christian teaching? I wonder how Paula’s black followers will feel about the news that they are part of an anti-Christian-White-Power cult? Newsflash: There are multiple ways to interpret the Bible and for the most part followers of religious leaders are not passive idiots just along for the ride.
Prosperity gospel is just a label placed on churches from the outside. There are elements of “prosperity gospel” in every church insofar as going to a church is considered good for ones overall health and insofar as every church needs monetary contributions to function and grow. That built in dynamic can be exploited for horrible ends…Everybody knows this….You and Barber labeling prosperity gospel as anti Christian might be true definitionally but it is an empty judgment and a similar argument aimed at derision, might be levied at Barber from a different angle….
The point is: Mark saying it sounds like she is trying to convey a White Power message through her use of the phrase “superior blood of Jesus” is not “a bit much” as you suggest, it is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say for multiple reasons. Your suggestions are equally worthy of ridicule.
Read the Bible? Thanks for the advice pastor Jean.
@Mark,
Evangelicals don’t hang pictures of Christ in their homes. That’s a Catholic practice. Catholics also show Jesus hanging on the cross suffering. Evangelicals show the empty cross. Small but theologically important differences.
The scripture references to the superior bloods of Jesus refer to His sacrifice being superior to the required animal sacrifices in the Old Testament to cleanse the people of their sins. Jesus is the perfect, spotless, lamb of God, sacrificed once for all time, to take away the sins of the world.
I realize it’s your preferred practice to misinterpret actions out of context to support your theory that everything associated with Trump is a dog whistle to white supremicists. Please refrain from doing that with the Bible.
FWIW,
I agree with Jean in her interpretation of the prosperity gospel. I don’t ascribe to Paula White’s teachings.
Mark saw it as an opportunity to point out his general dislike of linking bloodline to superiority? It was not seen by Mark as another opportunity to try to link Trump with White Supremacism? I don’t know man. Your explanation seems phony to me.
Mark is qualified to judge her ministry as a fake con job successfully preying on “gullible” “low information” people but he does not instantly understand what Paula was referring to when she used the phrase “superior blood of Jesus”?
I’m sorry. All of my previous comments stand.
I don’t think the prosperity Gospel is an accurate interpretation. FWIW, I agree with Jean in that point.
Sorry if this is a duplicate – don’t know what happened to my previous post.
Aloha EOS, the lord your God spelled it out pretty explicitly. “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”.
https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/authors/paula-white-net-worth/
another charlatan playing on the fears and insecurities of confused and sinful folks. But then you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you only believe in power, your continues support for evil (lesser than if you like but evil non less) tells me you are no christian, and all the platitudes you use to shore up the evil you support will not only damn you, but your descendants to the 7th generation.
That is a gross way to talk to EOS, DD. Worry about yourself. There is no getting around that $17k per year number DD. If you are holding onto more than the average per capita worldwide income then you are living a huge fucking evil lie.
Barber is a millionaire like White. Apparently according to him, if you want to make your way to heaven you must, protest millionaires and vote for millionaire Hillary2016.
Aloha FF, I did not make up the theology of Christianity. I did not put the “rich man” quote into Jesus’s mouth and included it in the Gospel. All I am doing is repeating the dogma taught to me by the religious leaders of my youth. I also did not invent the generational curse. I believe that it comes from the mouth of God in Exodus.
The current Pope, being ultra orthodox in his outlook, maintains this outlook as current dogma as well. Quoting a fourth century bishop (ie. it has been dogma for 1600 years at least), he called the unfettered pursuit of money “the dung of the devil”. Paula White is a heretic and non-believer, leading astray people with false promises.
the Lord our God, is not some hippie, love your neighbor kinda guy. He is the destroyer of worlds, the God who reigned death down on Sodmon and Gommorah, who wiped out all except Noah and his family, he brought down the walls of Jericho so that the Israelites could exterminate their enemies, he stopped the sun in its flight so that the killing would not need to stop. It is a God that clearly believes in collective punishment. You are either a follower of Jesus, who also talks a great deal about collective punishment (just read the visions of John), and individual salvation. Being a supporter of power for power sake, is not a way to get on the good side of the lord. I would have thought EOS had a sufficient theological background to understand her/his sins.
https://www.gotquestions.org/generational-curses.html
Jesus has forgiven my sins.
Aloha EOS, thank you for demonstrating why I stopped being a christian. Ask for forgiveness, and then go and sin again in Trumps name. Evil is as evil does. But will your lord let your kids off when collective punishment time comes?
DD,
In fact there are many ways that “rich man/ camel /needle/ heaven” are interpreted. I am not here trying to defend any interpretation as the right one. I am also not trying to defend Paula White’s brand of Christianity as the ultimate truth either. But who do you, Mark and Jean think you are pretending to be final interpreters and judges of what is and is not to be considered Christian? It sounds so absolutely stupid and arrogant.
Paula is not my cup of tea but I can see how some people might truly get help from her ministry. Maybe they will grow into some other teaching from a different angle… Maybe she will collect some money and then later give it all away as Jesus seemed to advise….
You may read the words, but it seems that you fail to understand. I will pray for you. Eph 3:16-19
Jack and Rexella Van Impe used to come to the Maple Art Theatre when I ran it for years. Pretty much every week. Dressed normal. Toned down makeup and hair. They saw lots of art films and were very low profile. Not at all like their TV scam.
That comment was for DD
FWIW, I would recommend that people here listen to a couple of Paula’s sermons and a couple of Barber’s sermons/speeches back to back. I think it would be an easy way to see two different points of view that shape two ends of the spectrum of Marxist Christianity, on the one hand, versus Christian conservatism, on the other. Strategically, any impulse you guys have to try to paint Paula as some sort of anti-Christian linked to Trump and therefore evidence of his being evil will backfire big-time, I promise. Her views are not as outside the mainstream as media outlets are trying to paint them, imo. Barber’s Marxist-Christian views on the other hand are outside the mainstream, imo. Failure to be careful about how you speak about this subject will result in bad things for you guys, no doubt.
Question for Sad: Who do you think would win in a wrestling match? Barber or White?
FF- I did not validate Mark’s white power thing. And yes, the idea that prosperity stems from faith is in fact contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Prosperity is a barrier to faith. Eye of the Needle. I don’t believe these people are Christians. I don’t feel that way about EOS. It’s a level of discernment maybe you can’t understand. Any faith practice can offer comfort to hose who believe. That’s no stretch. That’s just human nature.
I’m not sure why you imagine caring about social justice and racial inequity would lead anyone to think Black people are infallible. The whole point is they are the same but subject to marginalization. The beliefs you ascribe to be are very twisted FF. If I were you I’d call you a liar, but I’m not that dogmatic or absolutist.
Jean,
I think you missed the part where I sort of agree with you but it is not clear cut because it is a line drawing issue and an application issue. Which is why I said: “ You and Barber labeling prosperity gospel as anti Christian might be true definitionally…”. I am not sure it is fair to apply the label “prosperity gospel” to White however. I think an argument can be made in both directions. Her views are in the direction of “prosperity gospel” but it is more nuanced than Mark is reporting.You can click on her website and get more info about “first fruit” giving if you want a more nuanced view… She clarified she did not mean to say people should give first month salary as reported ….There is no doubt she is trying to raise money. I personally get a little bit of an icky feeling from her solicitations and asking for sacrifice but 10% tithing is normal…
A lot of people interpret “eye of needle” in different ways. Different people interpret that passage where prosperity is not necessarily a barrier to faith for all wealthy people as you suggest.
I simply don’t understand your comment about me thinking supposedly thinking black people are infallible. Weird weird comment.
White does not represent my views regarding religion. I do have insight into how her followers take her meaning in that clip though and it has nothing to do with White Power as Mark suggested. Nothing I have read or seen from her suggests that she is anti Christian ministry as you and DD have asserted. I don’t even think her views are that far out of mainstream. Is there some reason in particular you are saying she and her followers “are not Christian”? Is it just the “prosperity gospel” claim? If so, I think you will find that she is being misrepresented to a great extent—although I will admit some of her sermons feel a bit too much like a veiled solicitation for my comfort. On the other hand “sacrifice” is a major component of most all faiths….
I did not suggest wealth was an absolute barrier, but the scripture is clear that it is a barrier one must take pains to overcome to pass into heaven. I always took it to mean that wealth and greed are corrupting as is greed. In Buddhism they have similar beliefs about wealth, fame and beauty, but they call them something akin to tricksters. They lead to self-deception. You once again misrepresented my views.
FF– “I’m not sure why you imagine caring about social justice and racial inequity would lead anyone to think Black people are infallible.” –JH
“I simply don’t understand your comment about me thinking supposedly thinking black people are infallible. Weird weird comment.” –FF
I never said that. Liar.
You are exhausting and it is a chore to engage with you. Goodbye.
That is cool Jean. I accept your clarifications as I hope you accept mine. We are pretty close to the same In our thinking regarding “camel and needle”. Material fixation can certainly be a barrier to our spiritual lives obviously. Some might phrase it as a necessary balance between “bread” and “the word of god”. However you want to phrase it is fine with me….
Regarding black people being fallible (or not?). I am sorry I just don’t understand what you mean at all. Are you saying I should not expect other people to not find Barber infallible? If so, I still don’t get it. Nobody is infallible. Everybody knows we are all not infallible. Black people are people and are not infallible. People who are SJW sorts of course do not think black people are infallible. What am I missing? It was a nutty nutty comment, imo. I don’t get it.
You do realize that I was bring up
Oops scratch the last sentence: I meant to say you do realize that I did not bring Rev Barber out of the blue right? The NYT article which Mark quoted offers a quote from Barber where he claims White practices a “prosperity gospel” and therefore a false gospel.
For gods sake I was not committing a random “whataboutism” regarding Rev Barber. Is that what you thought? That would have been a crazy thing to do on my part.
Have you ever considered slowing way down. If something seems crazy as hell then maybe just try to figure out what the person actually might mean by taking time to glean more context and perhaps re-read things until your “crazy as hell” interpretations start to make more sense?
White would win in wrestling . Rev. Barber looks like he’s seem better days.
It’s probably exhausting fighting for poor people. I’m sure his efforts have taken a toll.
Did you really state that he’s a millionaire? How do you know?
White has some weird grandma strength in her.
I don’t know if Barber is a millionaire. I did read that he is worth over a million and it is definitely possible given his grant and old job. His MacArthur grant pays $125k per year no strings per 5 years. NAACP presidents at state level make between $150k and $250k. North Carolina NAACP is one of the biggest so he was probably closer to $250k for that…Don’t get me wrong though. I am not judging him. For all I know he is giving his money away….Either way, I don’t judge him or think he is non Christian if he is keeping more than the average per capita global income of $17k. I do think he should be questioned on it though because he seems steeped in Marxism to me.
For anybody who curious about “first fruits” concept of giving White was talking about—it is in the Bible. Almost exclusively Old Testament though. The New Testament uses the term to refer to Jesus himself rather than money or goods. However, in Corinthians, Paul talks about giving offerings on the first day of the week to be sent to the saints in Jerusalem…. I am not sure many would interpret it as a “first fruit” offering….I do find it interesting that Paul made a point to say that he did not want to actually go around collecting the offerings from people….Rather he advised the goods be offered and ready to go on the first day of the week….
Aloha FF, you will need to explain the theological nuances of St. Basil’s statement that “money is the devils dung”. Our current Pope uses the phrase approvingly. But hey, we are all in support of the endless wars. So much money at stake.
FF– you implied that if I said White’s teachings were anti-Christian that the Black parishioners would be insulted.
What the fuck did that mean? Why would I care? What argument were you making if not that somehow I need the imprimatur of Black people (as some kind of absurd monolith) to think or say anything?
It’s you who implied something utterly absurd (what other interpretation could there be) and then, when I replied, you called me absurd for suggesting it.
You are, as ever, corrupt without being charming,
But what about Biden?
I said: “I wonder how Paula’s black followers will feel about the news that they are part of an anti-Christian-White-Power cult?”
I am not sure many of the black followers would even be insulted though Jean. I suspect many would just think you and Mark are gross in your ignorance and arrogance. I am sure it is the type of thing most have seen before.
You don’t understand why you should care that you are part of the “news” coming out of mm.com that when taken together is accusing black followers of Paula White of being part of an anti-Christian- white-power movement?
It would be different if you ridiculed Mark alongside me. Instead you made excuses for him saying his comment was “a bit of a stretch”. It wasn’t a bit of a stretch as you said. It was an insanely irresponsible thing to say. We all know why he said it. He jumps at every opportunity to try to associate Trump with racism. Mark deals in smears and innuendo in order to push his agenda. It is who he is. You should call him out instead of trying to protect him.
Aloha FF, MM is our host. It is the height of rudeness to treat your host badly. Would you want me to come to your house and bad mouth you to all the rest of your guest? It is this failure of basic forms of civility (yeah that evil word) towards those who give you a space to write which is demonstrative part of our social/political problem.
I for one do not believe MM “deals in smears and innuendo to push his agenda”. I think he is thoughtful, and repeats positions that much of what passes for the “resistance” promulgates. Address the message, not the messenger.
The hate that RW folks generated towards our Kenyan Socialist President, has a powerful backlash, don’t you think.
DD,
Behave how you want. Mark might end up thanking me someday.
Solid joke iRobert!
I agree with FF in that Mark deals in smears and innuendo in order to push his agenda. At first I thought he did so somewhat tongue and cheek, in order to provoke a discussion. But after a number of years, I have come to the conclusion that he believes this tactic is persuasive to his intended audience. He may very well be right.
Aloha, don’t worry, be happy. We have plenty of time for a gradual approach for dealing with the effects of climate change.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-whats-happening-to-the-arctics-vanishing-glaciers-as-melting-speeds/?fbclid=IwAR2ZN4XxWGcjXN9Y5JLnxqUnV9jg4rFTJ1Jfb6BLzq4lztr3T-jALgpu-nM
“The North is melting five times faster than it was before 2005, with alarming implications for global sea levels, Indigenous people and Arctic ecosystems”
I didn’t want to post anything that was too distracting. I thought the discussion was interesting. I felt the impulse to join in with something substantive, but couldn’t come up with much. So I just made a dumb joke, as usual.
I do think people are called racist way too much on this blog. People here must not have much experience with really racist people. I actually believe racism is one area in which considerable progress has been made. I also think everyone (including everyone of all races) has at least some mild racist impulses which don’t really define them. I also don’t get the sense that this blog is frequented by a terribly diverse crowd. So my position is that people might be a bit too wound up here than makes sense.
You know, stupid people are almost automatically a bit racist. Because stupid people are unsophisticated intellectually, and it takes a little bit of intellectual sophistication to understand something of the complexities of history, sociology and psychology involved.
I don’t perceive anybody here as not being committed to equality among all Americans, and probably even among all people worldwide. People here would all be horrified to encounter a genuine racist person. I’m convinced of that. I don’t see much reason to pretend otherwise. But I suppose some people like to get wound up and work themself up to a frenzy with the notion that they are a crusader against the tide of evil all around them.
I’m going to be pretty mad at Mark if it turns out all the rest of you are just fake personas he’s made up.
“You know, stupid people are almost automatically a bit racist. Because stupid people are unsophisticated intellectually, and it takes a little bit of intellectual sophistication to understand something of the complexities of history, sociology and psychology involved.”
Bullshit. Educated people are equally racist and with less excuse. The whole point of systemic racism is that it is built in to the system and who maintains the system status quo– the rich and well educated. And Trump voters were more well off and more educated overall than HRC voters
iRobert– “People here would all be horrified to encounter a genuine racist person. I’m convinced of that.”
More utter bullshit.
I grew up in Lebanon Pennsylvania and heard racist comments every day I was at school. My grandfather was a committed racist with two law degrees from Yale. And I loved him. I went to boarding school with some open racists. I’ve spent time in Eastern Texas. I dated a black man for most of my college years and heard plenty from my fellow UM students. Most people here grew up in other parts of Michigan a few decades back when racial epithets were just part of daily speech. Have you seen Gran Torino? Because Clint Eastwood nails it.
There are degrees of racism just like any belief system. “Genuine racist’ — spare me. You are unbelievably condescending.
PS and lastly saying someone has expressed a racist idea or used racist coded language or is defending systemic racism is not accusing them of being a racist. On the other hand, when someone does so repeatedly… they are fair game.
I’m sorry, Jean. I consider many educated people to be stupid.
The average American today is not the racist your grandfather was.
Who here, Jean, would not be horrified to encounter a unabashed racist?
What sort of horribly racist things were said to you in college? I’m curious.
Also, Jean, could you encourage an actual black person to comment here on Mark’s almost exclusively white blog? I just don’t think you would be the first choice of most black people to have as speaking for them here.
JH: “ I grew up in Lebanon Pennsylvania and heard racist comments every day I was at school.”
Many, many decades ago.
JH: “My grandfather was a committed racist with two law degrees from Yale. And I loved him.”
Many, many decades ago.
JH: “I went to boarding school with some open racists.”
Many, many decades ago.
JH: “I’ve spent time in Eastern Texas.”
When? Many, many decades ago?
JH: “I dated a black man for most of my college years and heard plenty from my fellow UM students.”
Many, many decades ago. You may also have mistook concern for him as hostility toward him. (<- a joke)
JH: “Most people here grew up in other parts of Michigan a few decades back when racial epithets were just part of daily speech.”
Yes, a few decades back.
So, certainly, the people here are dumb as rocks. But I don’t think they’re the monsters you imagine them to be. In fact, I think you and I are the most monsterous here…and I’m having a hard time keeping up with you.
I have long thought that one problem we have when talking about racists and racism is that we simply do not have great language for easily getting into nuance on the subject. So then we have situations where iRobert is saying that some people are “genuine racists” or “unabashed racists” by which I think he means explicit racists, i.e. those who straight up consciously believe in racial supremacy. Those kind of racists still exist of course but less so than previously. These days, we are mostly dealing with systemic racism and implicit biases which are different things than just hating and consciously discriminating but damaging nevertheless.
What concerns me is that systemic racism and implicit biases are often simply unnoticed by the white majority in our culture and one of the most effective ways to deal with those issues is to talk about them. Yet, I have noticed that even if one takes great care not to call anyone a racist and instead say things like “what you said sounds racist to me” is that people will hear the latter and hear that they are being called a racist.
At any rate, we are and have been making great progress in our nation on the subject of racism and that is great but there is still a long way to go. I have no beef with those who focus more on still needs to be done than they do on what has already been done.
Aloha, was just reading this article. It poses the question. Does MM.com increase or decrease the dimensions of the Overton window?
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/11/04/the-incredible-shrinking-overton-window/?fbclid=IwAR3rmR8mirMxrjHTr1shoFMTygV-2HDhetzGoCzFuMVp9RwUgVlnY3kbX9w
I probably should have used “explicit racist” instead of the terms I used.
Another additional problem in relation to systemic racism and implicit biases is that people can perpetuate such things without being conscious of it.
Making people feel attacked has the affect of reversing the progress that has been made. Sometimes I get the inpression that that’s what the intention is with some individuals. Maybe it’s just the thought that hostile confrontation brings the issue to the surface and is the only way to ultimately address it. But that’s not the sense I get.
I don’t know why you guys are talking about racism when you should be talking about Mark’s supposed spidey-senses. How are they activated again?
Aloha, and remember never ever let a good deed go unpunished (a blast from the not that long ago past). He should have waited for the gradual internal processes to work. That is how real progress works, right? Terry James Albury is his name, and he is a man of honor who understands right vs. wrong.
https://atlantablackstar.com/2018/10/21/former-fbi-agent-who-outed-bureaus-racial-profiling-sentenced-to-4-years-for-leaking-classified-documents/?fbclid=IwAR2NZvZtaWiBjI9BVzrdOPc40UUiPKUycPx3OuXwS33ZpkGRdCVWXPiZYjg
EOS, do you adhere to the principle of “first fruits” in your life?
I Robert I live in Whitmore Lake, and as I have recounted here, see and hear openly white supremacits and racist sentiments regularly. But I can also just listen to what my President has to say. I see White Power hats all the time. My son’s uncle has Proud to be White as his facebook cover image. It’s all around us still though people are more cautious in expression of racist sentiment now. Dismantling systemic inequity is more than weeding out the bad guys. It requires a lot of openness to criticism and even more reflection.
I can not believe anyone can look at Trump’s election and say that racism was not a competent. But we’ve been round this block before. I’m not going to change your mind that people advocating for social justice by talking about everyday systemic racism (not just open racism) are creating the problem or making it worse.
I do not speak for anyone but myself. And no I will not ask any person of color to do the emotional labor of dealing with you all. No fucking way.
As for the comments I encountered at UM, I lost a lot of friends, almost all of my female friends. One said she was disappointed in me and could not hang out with me anymore. She is now married to a famous doc film maker known for his progressivism, so I assume she’s overcome her racism. My minister back home stopped by the farm after I took David with me to church one year. He talked to me at length about dating ‘out of my class.’ David’s dad was an executive at AAA and his mom a Detroit school teacher…Oh and I was refused an apartment twice when David showed up to sign the lease. Add to that being followed every time we shopped anywhere, etc etc. But most telling was what happened after we split up. At some point people stopped saying racist things to me because everyone knew we were together. Then after a while the racist whispers and asides started again. And they came into relief. I honestly understood a lot more about racism after we broke up because I could suddenly see it clearly.
It’s all around us, and if you don’t believe my enecdital accounts, then look at the data of differential outcomes in health, income, wealth, infant mortality, poverty, sentences given by crime. look at voting access, home ownership, bank loans– even when equalized by income and credit score. The evidence of systemic racism is literally everywhere. You have to duck not to get hit with it.
These problems can be made better by movements for economic equity but they can not be fixed by any of Bernie or Warren or Tusli or Mayor Pete’s plans. The work we need to do to repair racism in America is multi-leveled and multi-faceted and we cannot do that work as long as we deny the severity and complexity of the issue.
Denial of systemic racism is akin to climate denialism in many ways. There are those who outright deny it exists and then there is a whole spectrum of degrees of denial of the degree of the problem and the urgency to fix it and especially the denial of everyone’s own personal responsibility to address the issue where they need to and can.
Not as well as I should and not to the extent as some define it.
I’ve heard first fruits interpreted as a tithe. All that we have is a gift from God and we need to give a portion back. Many interpret a tithe as giving a minimum of 10% of your gross pay to the church off the top as soon as you get your pay. And then additional funds should be given for other charitable purposes as well as 10% of your leisure time.
Many believe 10% is just a starting point, and you should give considerably more.
I think it is important to contribute to support the local church, to give regularly and willingly and to support other causes too. But I miss the mark on tithing.
Aloha JH, one way to stop racism is to stop the bi-partisan support for racism.
https://original.antiwar.com/Brett_Wilkins/2019/11/03/for-9th-straight-year-us-grants-waivers-to-countries-violating-anti-child-soldier-law/
The White House recently announced the US was granting full or partial waivers to the Child Soldiers Prevention Act (CSPA) to Afghanistan, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Iraq, Mali, Somalia, South Sudan, and Yemen.
Notice anything about the countries where we let our allies draft children to fight our wars?
I think we need to reinstate the draft, Wobblie with no deferments or exceptions. That would end your wars.
I tithe 10% of both time and money but not ever ever ever to the church.
It’s one of the practices I was raised with that I have retained. There are studies that show that kids who grow up with parents who volunteer and donate are more likely to do the same.
I’ve actually been hugely disappointed that most Washtenaw County volunteers are retired seniors. That’s sad and not the case in my conservative and yes, racist and poorly educated hometown.
One year I gave a bunch of money to a non-profit that finances abortions for women who can not afford them thanks to EOS going on one of her rants.
After reading your accounts, Jean, I’m wondering if I’ve somehow insolated myself from such overt racism without realizing it. Though I think I know a lot of real jackasses and such, I haven’t encountered the situations you have. It’s odd because I really haven’t considered myself isolated from the general population. I wonder how many Facebook profiles have a “Proud to be White” declaration. How common could that be?
Aloha JH, Your idea of bringing the wars home has an appeal, at what age would you want us to start drafting our children to fight our wars? I think rather than having yet more forms of involuntary servitude, why don’t we instead elect politicians who are committed to stopping the wars? That would seem more like progress to me. But if it is going to take our sacrificing another generation of children to the gods of war to get good liberal folks to reject war, then let’s do it. Seems like such a waste doesn’t it? Good news is that gas is almost back down to $2.00 a gal. and the media blackout on the various ongoing oil spills seems to be effective.
It is kinda funny to think about folks in Whitnore Lake considering themselves “supreme” in any sense.
iRobert– you are a snob and an ass. What the hell is wrong with you. Most people here are great. Not everyone gets to choose where they live. I really like 99% of the people I meet here. They are hard working and funny. They laugh at things people in Ann Arbor yell at you about, regularly. They don’t worry about what their neighbor is doing and they’ll help you fix your car.And some of them are super isolated and stuck here, especially the young and queer ones, and its harder than you can imagine for them to get out of here. The schools suck and the per pupil expenditure is about $700 less than Ypsi, the lowest in the county. It’s all really sad and you, iRobert, are the ignorant one.
iRobert– from your post above, it’s no wonder you are culturally isolated. How much time do you spend in the company of people of color? How much time do you spend in the company of working class white people who are religious and/or conservative? How many people do you know how own guns? How many people do you know who have done time? How many people do you know who didn’t graduate high school?
31 hate groups in Michigan according to the SPLC, 21 are Neo nazi or white/christian supremacist
AMERICAN GUARD
GENERAL HATE
STATEWIDE
AMERICAN NAZI PARTY
NEO-NAZI
WESTLAND
ATOMWAFFEN DIVISION
NEO-NAZI
STATEWIDE
CHURCH MILITANT/ST. MICHAEL’S MEDIA
ANTI-LGBT
FERNDALE
CREATIVITY MOVEMENT, THE
NEO-NAZI
STATEWIDE
DAILY STORMER, THE
NEO-NAZI
STATEWIDE
FOUNDATION FOR THE MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS
WHITE NATIONALIST
CLINTON TOWNSHIP
GALLOWS TREE WOTANSVOLK ALLIANCE
GENERAL HATE
GRAND RAPIDS
IDENTITY EVROPA
WHITE NATIONALIST
STATEWIDE
NATIONAL SOCIALIST MOVEMENT
NEO-NAZI
DETROIT
NORTHERN HAMMERSKINS
RACIST SKINHEAD
DETROIT
NS PUBLICATIONS
NEO-NAZI
WYANDOTTE
NSM88 RECORDS
HATE MUSIC
DETROIT
PACIFIC COAST KNIGHTS OF THE KU KLUX KLAN
KU KLUX KLAN
ALPENA
PATRIOT FRONT
WHITE NATIONALIST
STATEWIDE
PROUD BOYS
GENERAL HATE
STATEWIDE
SOCIAL CONTRACT PRESS
WHITE NATIONALIST
PETOSKEY
THE RIGHT STUFF
WHITE NATIONALIST
STATEWIDE
TRADITIONALIST WORKER PARTY
NEO-NAZI
STATEWIDE
WHITE RABBIT RADIO
WHITE NATIONALIST
DEARBORN HEIGHTS
YAHWEH’S TRUTH
CHRISTIAN IDENTITY
LINWOOD
Trump’s racist immigration policies (as well as many that existed before him) can be drawn to a Michigan based White Nationalist and anti-immigration activist, John Tanton. If you ever wondered why US immigration policy is such a mess, a big part of the answer is home grown.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-dark-legacy-of-john-tanton-the-anti-immigration-white-nationalist-who-set-the-stage-for-trump
Jean, I make fun of all places. There isn’t a thing about Michigan and Michiganders that I wouldn’t mock. Yeah, I’m a snob and and ass, true. But that doesn’t mean you yourself aren’t also. And I don’t get the sense that you are deliberately.
By the way, do you think a list of racist organizations is meaningful at all without membership numbers?
As obnoxious as I am, I still have some decency. For example, I don’t feel a tremendous impulse to misrepresent the positions of everyone with whom I disagree. Mainly that’s because I don’t feel my positions are so weak that I would need to. But also it’s just really disgusting behavior. Maybe that’s the snob in me talking.
Wait a minute…
There’s a group in Alpena called “The Pacific Coast Knights of the Ku Klux Klan?”
That’s strange.
I have noticed SPLC has weird, quirky, glitchy info before. To be honest, I don’t trust their info at all. Is it possible that they included the “Pacific Coast Knights of the KKK” as an Alpena group not because of some investigation but rather as the result of a superficial and sloppy internet search? I think someone who works over there was reading and writing too fast or probably they have some sort of internet scanning program that links states with key words like “kkk”, Skinhead” or whatever….
From a 12 page ADL article:
“Many of the newer Klan groups promote a traditional Klan ideology infused with neo-Nazi beliefs, continuing a trend from the early 2000s. EBBOK itself is one of these, its website explaining, “We are a Christian hate group. We are a group unlike other groups. We accept all Nazis and skin heads (sic) cause we have the same beliefs.” Two such Klan groups have already formed in 2016: the Great Lake Knights, based in Alpena, Michigan, and the Pacific Coast Knights of Spokane, Washington.”
The impulse to label is stronger than the impulse to get the facts straight. It is like a spidey sense in that way.
IRobert– In what universe do secret societies make their membership numbers public?
FF- I have issues with the SPLC lists too. But on white supremacy they have been doing useful work It looks like an intern screwed up, so do you think that the Klan org based in Alpena is less of a threat when call the Great Lakes Knights than if called the Pacific Coast Knights? What exactly is your point here?
iRobert: you didn’t;t answer these questions:
“How much time do you spend in the company of people of color? How much time do you spend in the company of working class white people who are religious and/or conservative? How many people do you know how own guns? How many people do you know who have done time? How many people do you know who didn’t graduate high school?”
She also pretends to speak in tongues!
JH: “iRobert– In what universe do secret societies make their membership numbers public?”
Jean, in this universe, concerned individuals, watchdog groups, and law enforcement agencies gather intel on such organizations.
Speaking-in-tongues always seems like what people too dumb to learn a second language do. Latin would be a good one to learn if you wanted to mesmerize a dumb audience with something real.
I apooogize in advance, but I do feel I should answer Jean’s questions, since I’m often making fun of the people here who don’t answer questions.
JH: “How much time do you spend in the company of people of color?”
I’m not sure how to quantify this, but I spend time around and talk to many people I don’t know personally. The demographics tend to be pretty representative of the general population of Ann Arbor as a whole. So I guess the people I interact with are disproportionately UM students.
JH: “How much time do you spend in the company of working class white people who are religious and/or conservative?”
Quite a bit actually.
JH: “How many people do you know how own guns?”
I know very many, but maybe about a half dozen of the people I associate with personally do.
JH: “How many people do you know who have done time?”
I know two or three casually, but would not say I know them well.
JH: “How many people do you know who didn’t graduate high school?”
That’s the sort of thing people I would meet casually would not likely mention. I think I only know two people who didn’t complete high school.
My spidey sense tells me that Mark also gets uncomfortable when people attending a service “pretend” to be moved by the Holy Spirit by hand waving, bouncing, dancing, and spontaneous singing.
Jean,
The name attached to a supposed hate group is not important, you are right. I was drawing attention to the probable (questionable) method used to get that supposed particular hate group from Alpena on the “watch list”. The method used in this particular case almost certainly exclusively involved an internet scan program. I would be willing to bet I found the source of the mistake but more importantly I discovered their highly questionable method of putting groups on the “watch list”. I actually think it says something pretty damning about their probable minimal methods for making their watchlist.
Alpena definitely has “trumptard Nazis”. I think that’s the official name of the group, actually. The next SPLC guide should have that corrected. But they don’t make enough money to interest Paula White since most the cement factory jobs left.
I hope SPLC can scrape up the money to print out their next guide pamphlet containing the corrections.
I need to see if I can get a group listed on the SPLC watch list called “Whitemore Lake” described as a racist pond hockey club.
SPLC raised “$132 million between November 2016 and October 2017 and has a $477 million endowment, including a reported $92 million in offshore accounts.”
I don’t know. Maybe Jean’s very antogonistic approach to dealing with inequalities is more effective than I perceive it to be. It hasn’t been my experience though, so maybe I just need to see more examples of how it’s been productive in making change. I’ve always felt that bringing the maximum number of sympathizers on board was essential. Maybe it isn’t.
Making stuff up can be effective.
Aloha FF, surprised you’ve not mentioned this latest recording, Milo exposing Spencer–probably more fake stuff right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cCS1cP69Wo
Does the SPLC put out a report which details what their activities are, and what the expenditures are for these activities?
Spencer is a freak. We already knew that. My position has always been the more we hear from him the quicker he loses power and he becomes just another freak without power. Attempts to deplatform him were misguided imo. Those who organized deplatforming him were running a little racket of their own.
iRobert the SPLC is a non-profit and so is audited yearly and has publicly available financial reports.
Aloha, A number of folks though have indicated that Tulsi’s comments and actions about gay marriage, (made while a teenager and young lady before her commitment to the army) disqualifies her for them. I wonder what they think of a grown person in the US Senate seeking funding for an anti-LGBT ministry
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/31/amy-klobuchar-minnesota-teen-challenge-halloween/
will there be dozens of hit pieces endless claiming Klobuchar is ant-LGBT, or has her support for the military industrial complex inoculated her?
iRobert –
As Jean indicates above, all non profits ( minus churches for some goddam reason ) are required to file a form 990. It gives a rough outline of their income / expenses as well as their balance sheet. They are all publicly available.
Guidestar is one resource for searching them. Propublica is another, minus registration.
A lot of the ones I have looked at in the past raise questions… the first being how much is fair compensation for organization officers and trustees.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/630598743
Thank you, Dave Morris.
You’re welcome, iRobert.
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