Mueller calls a press conference, declares that he did not “exonerate” Trump, and suggests that Congress act on his findings

Special Counsel Robert Mueller called an impromptu press conference at the Department of Justice this morning, during which he essentially said that, contrary to what members of the administration might be saying, investigators had not found Donald Trump to be innocent of obstruction. “If we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime,” Mueller told the assembled members of the press, “we would have said so.” He then went on to say, “We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime.”

Here’s video of Mueller statement.

Trump supporters as you might imagine, immediately chimed in, attempting to spin this most recent development as a positive for the President, cherry-picking quotes from Mueller’s brief public statement to make it sound as though this was the official end of the investigation, and that Donald Trump had been completely exonerated. Fox News’s Sean Hannity tweeted that Mueller had said “We are formally closing the special counsel’s office and as well I am resigning from the Department of Justice to return to private life,” Donald Trump himself tweeted that the case was now officially closed, and White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders issued a formal release stating that the Special Counsel had found that there there was “no obstruction.”

None of that, however, was true.

And it also wasn’t true, back in March, when Donald Trump proclaimed that the Mueller report had completely exonerated him… Here’s video from back then, just to refresh your memories.

The truth is, the Special Counsel’s report specified ten significant instances of possible obstruction, and today Robert Mueller, the author of the report, came out to contradict those who have pushed the false narrative of “no obstruction, no collusion,” urging everyone to actually read the damn report, which outlines in excruciating detail the extents to which members of the Trump administration went to stop the investigation into Russian interference during out 2016 election.

Essentially, Robert Mueller came out today and said to Congress, in front of every American citizen, “You have my fucking report, the president is guilty of obstruction, now do your fucking jobs.”

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134 Comments

  1. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    Stupid questions: Why would Trump obstruct Justice in an investigation into criminal collusion with Russia, when Trump knew he was innocent. What would Trump stand to gain? What would Trump stand to lose by not obstructing if we assume he did obstruct?

  2. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 3:19 am | Permalink

    R̶U̶S̶S̶I̶A̶, R̶U̶S̶S̶I̶A̶, R̶U̶S̶S̶I̶A̶, Obstruction, Obstruction, Obstruction … Now that we’ve got a narrative, we can’t let go
    By Mark | July 17, 2017

  3. John Brown
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 5:36 am | Permalink

    FF, yeah stupid questions. “Gee what would the ruskie stooge have to lose”. Innocent people don’t usually obstruct, and the circumstancial evidence against him says he’s not innocent. We need to impeach for obstruction, then when he’s no longer protected by a crooked DOJ , waterboard his orange ass to get the truth, then execute his fat orange ass. It’ll become a federal holiday.

  4. Anonymous
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 5:40 am | Permalink

    At first I thought FF was trolling Mark, but then I remember who sets the bait. Good job, and thanks for providing a safe space for him to release and allow him to function in public.

  5. Jean Henry
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 6:25 am | Permalink

    OK FF– I’ll answer your stupid question (yes it is; the answer is obvious) “Why would Trump obstruct Justice in an investigation into criminal collusion with Russia, when Trump knew he was innocent.”

    FBI and DOJ investigations are comprehensive– far-reaching and detailed. Trump is, depending on your perspective, either the head of a large crime family or a very successful real estate mogul who has nor been able to borrow money for his projects within the normal finance system for 25 years and is known to have some financial ties with some crime families. He is also known not to pay vendors or taxes and has run two known fraudulent enterprises– Trump Univerisity and the Trump Foundation. Oh, and he bought the silence of two sex workers before the election. So somewhere in there is reason enough to worry about what a comprehensive investigation might uncover. People are going to jail for facilitating deals for Trump. Since Trump can’t be convicted due to his connection to those crimes by the DOJ while in office, what he feared was never conviction, but exposure and impeachment. So he would have been obstructing justice to prevent those two things, not prosecution.

    Also, people obstruct justice all the time on crimes they aren’t convicted of. Trump has not been proven innocent. That’s not how our system works; there wasn’t enough evidence to prove his guilt. Those two things are not the same.

    Mueller’s statement by the way proved your analysis of the report wrong on many counts. Can you admit that? Or will you be sending him a list of questions to answer?

  6. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    FF’s Q: “Why would Trump obstruct Justice in an investigation into criminal collusion with Russia, when Trump knew he was innocent.”

    A: Because he knew communications associates of his and Russian officials regarding potential business deals with Russians would be characterized as circumstantial evidence of collusion in Russian interference in US elections.

    Note: This is one glaring example as to why avoiding potential conflicts of interest between private business dealings and public service duties has historically been a priority of any and all thoughtful people.

    FF’s Q: “What would Trump stand to gain?”

    A: Trump’s “gain” was to avoid being steamrolled by a concerted effort to falsely characterize his improper business dealings with collusion in espionage against the US. His obstructive actions were successful in avoiding that false characterization.

    FF’s Q: “What would Trump stand to lose by not obstructing if we assume he did obstruct?”

    A: He would have simply been framed completely as colluding in Russian espionage against the US. The media would have bought it outright, thriving only on sensationalism and hostility toward Trump. Trump would be characterized as a traitor and things would proceed from that assertion. So Trump had quite a bit to lose by not interfering and obstructing. He could not count on others to ensure the investigation into Russian interference wouldn’t be used to frame him. Normally an authentic press would stand as one obstacle to that happening. The MSM, in its current state, does not perform that function.

    P.S. Thanks for the softballs, FF.

  7. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 6:55 am | Permalink

    Guilty until proven innocent

  8. John Brown
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 6:56 am | Permalink

    As if his criminality weren’t enough, his petty, childish, vindictiveness allows him to easily engage in unAmerican actions. What message did the treasonous commander in chief send those sailors with this evil dictator grade stunt of shunning the SS Mccain? Total POS human waste of oxygen.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/29/us/politics/uss-mccain-navy-ship.html

  9. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    I also agree with much of the detail Jean suggests, with at least one difference between our beliefs…mine being that Trump and his associates did not likely knowingly collude with Russian intelligence to influence the outcome of the US election.

  10. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    Why was Mueller’s voice shaking?

  11. Sad
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:07 am | Permalink

    Because he’s old.

    You’re so mean HW.

    The question is what are the political consequences of impeachment?

  12. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    HW’s Q: “Why was Mueller’s voice shaking?”

    There is a great deal of undue pressure and attention on Mueller. He has a very specific job, but so much more responsibility is being heaped on him unjustly. He’s an investigator. He’s not a politician, a legislator, a spokesperson, savior, or anything else he’s being pressured to represent. I’m sure the experience is a horrible one.

  13. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    How am I mean but these ass-souls around here are fine?

  14. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:11 am | Permalink

    Trump just admitted for the first time that Russian interference helped him get elected.

  15. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Really, what did he say?

  16. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    HW,

    Sad is just using your question to do another one of his Mayor Pete promos. You’re not any meaner than most frequent commenters here. The nice people here have gone quiet for the most part or left. Now it’s mostly just us mean folk.

  17. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    Trump: “…And now Russia has disappeared because I had nothing to do with Russia helping me to get elected.”

    from a recent Tweet of Trump’s

  18. Tim
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:20 am | Permalink

    While Hannity is still carrying water for the president, some at Fox, it would appear, saw this for what it was.

    Fox News anchor Bret Baier: “This was not — as the President says time and time again — ‘no collusion, no obstruction.’ It was not anywhere as clear-cut as Attorney General Bill Barr (has suggested). In fact, it was almost exactly the opposite: not clear-cut.

  19. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:22 am | Permalink

    So if I begin to assume that “Trump is the head of a very large crime family”, then everything else will begin to fall into place?

  20. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    “Trump has not been proven innocent. That’s not how our system works; there wasn’t enough evidence to prove his guilt.”–Jean

    Crazy.

  21. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    Along with JB, I am disgusted by the Trunp White House’s offensive conduct regarding the USS John S. McCain. I can’t help but feel the constant excuse-making Trump supporters engage in, encourages this disgusting conduct from the White House.

    It’s incredibly unnerving to feel the president of the United States and his army of enablers need to be told to grow the fuck up.

  22. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    He’s trolling you, dummy. Haven’t you noticed how this works? He also said “Russia did not get me elected.” He’s got the entire Left chasing their own tail.

  23. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:35 am | Permalink

    What’s offensive about not wanting a traitor’s name photo bombing him?

  24. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:45 am | Permalink

    Whatever you do don’t throw me into that impeachment patch, Br’er Fox!

  25. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:48 am | Permalink

    HW,

    It’s disturbing that you call John McCain a traitor. How could you possibly believe that? I missed any previous comments you may have made about that. I doubt anyone else here agrees with you, with the possible exception of EOS.

  26. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    You didn’t listen to the Tokyo Rose tape I posted? Hm.

  27. Anonymous
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    In these guys’ world, anyone who opposes Trump is a traitor.

  28. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    I knew about that decades ago.

  29. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    You call passing around defamatory bogus intel about the President of the USA “opposition”?

  30. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    I heard the McCain Tokyo Rose recording. I don’t hold that against McCain in the least. Why would you? If you were being threatened with the torture of your fellow captives, you’d read any ridiculous nonsense they put in front of you to read too. And your fellow Americans wouldn’t hold it against you, knowing you were threatened with what would be necessary to get you to say such nonsense. Nobody listened to that bullshit except a few intelligence agents.

    So are you such a patriot that you wouldn’t read some BS that everyone knows is BS when the torture of your buddies is threatened?

  31. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    iRobert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tkBiFZBix0

  32. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:08 am | Permalink

    Article I:

    I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

    Article II:

    I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

    Article III:

    If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

    Article IV:

    If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V:

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Article VI:

    I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

  33. Sad
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    Mayor Pete would never obstruct justice.

    He’s probably never mean.

    Well maybe sometimes with his husband. He admitted that.

    Still. He’d be a great president.

  34. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    HW,

    You’re almost certainly right that Trump wasn’t admitting Russia helped him win. But you are totally wrong on this McCain thing. He endured extraordinary torture on his own body without breaking, but was also controlled with torture of his fellow captives. Any decent person would trade reciting a few words everyone knows are BS in order to avoid additional torture of his fellow captives.

    Trump on the other hand would sell out at the slightest threat of discomfort to himself. He has demonstrated nothing but selfish cowardice and disloyalty his entire life. He of all people is least in any position to pretend to criticize an actual patriot like McCain.

  35. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:16 am | Permalink

    How can it be said he didn’t “break”? He spouted communist propaganda on the radio. He threw the code of conduct in the trash.

  36. Sad
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    As opposed to HWs public service here- being the mouthpiece of madman.

  37. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:21 am | Permalink

    HW,

    If you or Trump were subjected to the same torture and threat of torture to buddies as McCain was, and chose to read the BS statement, I wouldn’t hold it against you. Nor would any other patriot or simply decent person. Even if it meant that your captives heaped more torture upon your buddies. But Trump used BS excuses to get out of even serving.

    McCains fellow service men respected him and were grateful to him for every effort he made to reduce their suffering. That’s a kind of honor Trump will never know, and could never experience.

  38. Anonymous
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Think of all the things that HW does for the country from his mom’s basement.

  39. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    Have you ever owned your own home, anonymous?

  40. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    “Mueller’s statement by the way proved your analysis of the report wrong on many counts. Can you admit that? Or will you be sending him a list of questions to answer?”

    Not true, Jean. You simply don’t deal in facts. I have always (100% of the time) summarized the Mueller report as saying “no collusion but obstruction is an open question”. Why? Because that is what the report says. It is obvious and I have always stated it as obvious. I also think Mueller wants to pass the question off to congress or at least clearly state it as an open question which they can either decide to tackle or not, via an impeachment process, or not. It is obvious to me that the real question, which Sad seems to pointing out, is whether or not Congress actually wants to try to tackle the open question of obstruction. The question of whether or not Trump obstructed is not even close to having a straightforward answer as most pretend here. It is actually very complicated. Take a look at Lucky Pierre’s garbage statement–“Obstruction is not an open question, he obviously obstructed.” Nonsense. Dangerous nonsense.

  41. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    HW,

    I would appreciate it if you would reconsider your position on this point. McCain was put in an inpossoble position, as a result of choosing to serve his country. He did not break under direct torture of his own body. He did however bend when threatened with the added torture to his buddies. He made nany tactical decisions while in captivity which demonstrated not only his courage and patriotism, but his humanity and love of his fellow servicemen. You and Trunp are in no position to make any disparaging comments about it. Everyone knew any statements prisoners made under threat to their buddies was all BS anyway. It was no betrayal. It was a meaningless statement except that it demonstrated that he didn’t want to see any additional harm inflicted on his buddies.

    Trunp is disgusting and pathetic for his behavior on this. I’m a bit surprised you would join him in that boat. I’m confident even most of his supporters do not.

  42. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    It’s quite a propaganda coup to get a hot shot like McCain praising the Viet Cong and denigrating the USA on radio. To think we have it on tape is astounding. Just one little forgivable sin is the only thing he did wrong but we happen to have it on tape. Crazy world, huh?

  43. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:40 am | Permalink

    I would appreciate if you would shut the fuck up. If McCain wasn’t such a dickhead maybe he wouldn’t have crashed at least three times. I’m sure he had nothing at all to do with the Forrestal fire either. It was just a co-incidence ol’ “Wet Start Johnny” was preparing for take-off when the accident happened.

  44. Jean Henry
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    Yes, HW. I mean contrast Trump’s honorable service in the military to McCain’s… Everyone should just STFU. Trump’s the hero.

  45. Jean Henry
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    FF– we’re all still waiting for your retraction re the Mueller Report.

  46. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    HW, I would be surprised if our intelligence agencies didn’t have every second of enemy broadcasts on tape, and all well documented, organized and preserved.

    There are certainly tapes of thousands of prisoners saying all sorts of BS under duress. The only reason we haven’t heard others is because none of these other thousands ran for president. Statements made under duress are meaningless. Everybody fully understands that in the service. Only a jackass moron (& draft-dodger) like Trump would have no comprehension of that. Even the jackass morons that DID serve understand that. I’d expect folks who didn’t serve and who aren’t morons to understand it as well.

  47. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    https://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2008/10/10/john-dramesis-unflattering-memories-of-his-fellow-pow-john-mccain

    “In his memoir Faith of My Fathers, McCain admitted to being a lousy midshipman at the naval academy and a flier who lost four or five planes. (The time he decided to hug the ground in Spain for the hell of it and flew into some power lines the plane may have survived–it’s not clear from his account.) And when he was captured he caved under torture. He concedes other POWs performed better.”

  48. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    Interesting article about a guy who didn’t break.

  49. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    It’s amazing what you learn when you pay attention.

    “I mentioned one of his prison’s senior officers, James Bond Stockdale. A navy pilot, Stockdale attempted suicide to show his captors he’d rather die than talk. He feared that under unremitting torture he would talk, and there was no way he could let the North Vietnamese find out what he knew: that the attack in the Tonkin Gulf in August 1964, which plunged the U.S. into the war, was bogus — the radar on the destroyer Turner Joy had mistaken bad weather for enemy boats. Later he wrote, “I was in possession of the most damaging information a North Vietnamese torturer could possibly extract from an American prisoner of war.”

  50. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:05 am | Permalink

    HW,

    It seems like you feel you have to commit yourself to every stupid, fucked-up, thing Trump does and says. It’s just not true. You do have the option to be honest not defend him when he is obviously wrong.

  51. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:28 am | Permalink
    “Mueller’s statement by the way proved your analysis of the report wrong on many counts. Can you admit that? Or will you be sending him a list of questions to answer?”
    Not true, Jean. You simply don’t deal in facts. I have always (100% of the time) summarized the Mueller report as saying “no collusion but obstruction is an open question”. Why? Because that is what the report says. It is obvious and I have always stated it as obvious. I also think Mueller wants to pass the question off to congress or at least clearly state it as an open question which they can either decide to tackle or not, via an impeachment process, or not. It is obvious to me that the real question, which Sad seems to pointing out, is whether or not Congress actually wants to try to tackle the open question of obstruction. The question of whether or not Trump obstructed is not even close to having a straightforward answer as most pretend here. It is actually very complicated. Take a look at Lucky Pierre’s garbage statement–“Obstruction is not an open question, he obviously obstructed.” Nonsense. Dangerous nonsense.

    Jean Henry
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 8:54 am | Permalink
    FF– we’re all still waiting for your retraction re the Mueller Report.
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

    I think you are dishonest and/ or dumb. It is not possible for somebody be to honest and/ or smart while simultaneously being wrong so often. The other possibility is drunk often.

  52. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Imagine being a fly in the fighter jet cockpit when he flew into those power lines in Spain. Hahaha, it’s incredible.

  53. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    “It seems like you feel you have to commit yourself to every stupid, fucked-up, thing Trump does and says. It’s just not true. You do have the option to be honest not defend him when he is obviously wrong.”

    I hated McCain long, long before Trump ran for Pres. It seems to me like you can’t process information fast enough to carry on a conversation. I said that a while ago.

  54. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    HW,

    I’m not defending McCains abilities as a pilot, or suggesting there weren’t other guys who endured more torture, or that other guys didn’t hold up against it to a greater degree than McCain did. What I am saying is that reciting a few BS lines under duress is meaningless and everyone with any sense knows it. But Teump is a coward without any sense. You shouldn’t feel you need to join him is his idiocy.

    On the topic of collusion, I’ve agreed with you all along that the circumstantial evidence has always suggested Trump never did anything deliberately to assist Russian intelligence in election interfering. Still, I can clearly see why so many people did suspect it.

  55. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    So the Military Code of Conduct is B.S. Okay. The struggle of those men who died to protect the USA rather than rat us out is nothing. Alright, there.

  56. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    I was never a fan of McCain either, HW. I think he was quite a jackass at times, especially when he was younger. But to call him a traitor is way over the top.

    FF,
    If Jean is in fact drunk most of the time when she posts, could you blame her?

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    I don’t call planting phony evidence ‘suspicion’.

  58. Anonymous
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    Page 2: In evaluating whether evidence about collective action of multiple individuals constituted a crime, we applied the framework of conspiracy law, not the concept of “collusion.” In so doing, the Office recognized that the word “collud[e]” was used in communications with the Acting Attorney General confirming certain aspects of the investigation’s scope and that the term has frequently been invoked in public reporting about the investigation. But collusion is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law. For those reasons, the Office’s focus in analyzing questions of joint criminal liability was on conspiracy as defined in federal law. In connection with that analysis, we addressed the factual question whether members of the Trump Campaign “coordinat[ed]” — a term that appears in the appointment order — with Russian election interference activities. Like collusion, “coordination” does not have a settled definition in federal criminal law. We understood coordination to require an agreement — tacit or express — between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference. That requires more than the two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other’s actions or interests. We applied the term coordination in that sense when stating in the report that the investigation did not establish that the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.

    The term “collusion” has no meaning, so when anyone says “There was no collusion” they are 100% correct, since the word has no legal meaning. Trump’s lawyers have probably recommended that he use the word “collusion” rather than any other term. Note that he never says “There was no conspiracy by anyone in my team to work with Russian operatives to influence the outcome of the election.”

  59. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    It might be over your top. I’d say it’s treason to shop the phony dossier around to take out our newly elected President with lies. You better hope he wasn’t working on behalf of international interests.

  60. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    No conspiracy was found. No Americans were charged for conspiracy with Russians. I wonder if Christopher Steele will have to answer questions about that now that spygate docs are declassified.

  61. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    No, HW. The Military Code of Conduct is an ideal. The realities of war foul everything up, including all ideals. It’s always important to hold on to ideals, but in war all sorts of concessions are made and forgiven considering the circumstances. I was calling the statement McCain read under duress BS. That doesn’t translate to the code being BS. McCain didn’t rat anybody out, and didn’t rat out the US. He read some BS under duress. That’s all that happened.

  62. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    Ultimately it is not about blaming anybody for their shortcomings or struggles.

    Given the choice between:
    a) Honest and dumb
    b) Smart and constantly drunk
    c) Smart and constantly lying

    I will take honest and dumb all day, but my parents did not meet at Harvard.

  63. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    HW,

    I believe the concerns of those who sought to investigate Trump were reasonable. If anything was fabricated, the individuals responsible should certainly be investigated and charged.

  64. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    Re: ratting: I don’t think so. Why was McCain against POW/MIA’s?

    ‘Nother lil tidbit. Look up more if you are honest.

    http://www.unz.com/article/mccain-and-the-pow-cover-up/

    One of the sharpest critics of the Pentagon’s performance was an insider, Air Force Lt. Gen. Eugene Tighe, who headed the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) during the 1970s. He openly challenged the Pentagon’s position that no live prisoners existed, saying that the evidence proved otherwise. McCain was a bitter opponent of Tighe, who was eventually pushed into retirement.

    Included in the evidence that McCain and his government allies suppressed or sought to discredit is a transcript of a senior North Vietnamese general’s briefing of the Hanoi politburo, discovered in Soviet archives by an American scholar in 1993. The briefing took place only four months before the 1973 peace accords. The general, Tran Van Quang, told the politburo members that Hanoi was holding 1,205 American prisoners but would keep many of them at war’s end as leverage to ensure getting war reparations from Washington.

  65. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    The term “collusion” has no meaning, so when anyone says “There was no collusion” they are 100% correct, since the word has no legal meaning. Trump’s lawyers have probably recommended that he use the word “collusion” rather than any other term. Note that he never says “There was no conspiracy by anyone in my team to work with Russian operatives to influence the outcome of the election.”

    While I think discovering the origins of our usage of the term “collusion” in place of legal definitions would be interesting, I don’t see the point of pretending like the debates we have been having revolve around mere semantics. Outside of semantic-debates around the correct legal terms to use, what is the point of being a stickler about the usage of term “collusion” when everybody seems to understand that “collusion” is a generic-non-legal- umbrella-term, to describe possible criminal cooperation with Russian interference?

  66. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Re: fabricated evidence: I have been telling all of you for years there will be investigations on spygate and people will go away for it. Investigations are happening. The President says he declassified everything and gave it to Barr. Do you not pay attention outside of your bubble at all?

  67. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:06 am | Permalink

    Oops, to be clear, my first paragraph above is a quote from Anonymous.

  68. John Brown
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    FF, the correct answer is:

    d) Dumb and constantly lying

  69. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    If I, in fact, lie constantly, then it should be easy to point out one of my lies. Please point out one of my lies, Fake John Brown.

  70. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    HW,

    That’s a great article. Thank you for the link. I certainly see why you don’t like McCain. His resistance to the notions that there were still some POWs being held hostage after the war reminds me of the attitudes of most people actually. We see similar sorts of things expressed here on Mark’s blog constantly, and on so many topics. I don’t want to hate people for being so afraid of the complex and disturbing realities of war, politics, business, etc. But it’s certainly not easy. With the way you are mocked and insulted, I can imagine you’re pretty fed up with most people’s avoidance of getting as much of the full story as possible. All I can offer is an “I hear ya” sort of response. I’m just trying to figure out how to best cope with all this stuff and somehow still find ways to connect with people and enjoy life. I’m in favor of information being made public, but I also know how difficult it is for most folks to cope with what they find as they go deeper into subjects. So I worry about what a bunch of freaked out people will do collectively. That’s why I think it’s so important to connect with people and not just broadcast all my anger and hatred about it all.

  71. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Thanks, iRobert. I am extremely nice to people who don’t attack me. There is a universe of knowledge to think about and discuss. I seriously thought when I first began to post here that it was a chance to talk to people in the area about issues we are all interested in, if with differing perspectives. I didn’t know I would find such extreme hatred. Now I stick around to enjoy seeing everything I said come to fruition. If you personally want to turn over a new leaf between us I am all for it.

  72. John Brown
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:20 am | Permalink

    FF your entire ideology is a lie. Just admit that your crew of McConnel, agent orange, pompeo etc will lie cheat and deceive in the goal of achieving a white supremacist theocracy. Mcconnel lies about judges, wilbur Ross lies about the Citizenship question, agent orange lies about the color of the sky. Nazis? what nazis? lies on lies on lies.

  73. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    Starting to think JB is red-pilled satire of the extreme left. The effect of his posts is the equivalent of that.

  74. Anonymous
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    FF’s interest in identity politics would seem to suggest that he believes that semantics matter (when semantics are so important to identity politics), but now he indicates that it does not?

    Collusion and conspiracy are different things. Trump uses a term he knows is not applicable in this case because it relieves him of having to be held accountable to it. If he used the words collusion and conspiracy interchangeably, I might be inclined to agree that it doesn’t matter, but the fact is that he uses collusion almost exclusively.

    So what happens is that people end up arguing about something that doesn’t apply, when we really should be arguing about what does. That’s just my view on the subject. I don’t think that one can simply say that semantics don’t matter given that people are using
    a specific word probably chosen for a specific reason.

    Do you really believe that semantics do not matter to politics or the law?

  75. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Deep cut that hits just the right spot

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PblMwPRjYms

  76. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Maybe dems and media should not have used ‘collusion’ ten trillion times then.

  77. Anonymous
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    On the origins of the use of the very odd word “collusion”

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/how-did-we-end-up-with-the-word-collusion

  78. M
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    “I had nothing to do with Russia helping me get elected.”

    -Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States

  79. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    FJB:”Lies on lies on lies? ”

    Great! Name something I said that is lie.

    FJB: “FF your entire ideology is a lie.”

    Well, given that the commonly understood definition of “ideology” is a false-belief about the world, you really are not saying anything are you? Imagine a scenario where FJB called FF deceptive and FF asked FJB to point out one of FF’s deceptions and FJB response was “all of your deceptions are examples of your deceptiveness.”

    Status: dumb weasel.

  80. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Anonymous,

    Weird comment. I am interested in semantics , identity politics and lots of other things. Again, although I am interested in legal definitions and the origin of usage of the non-legal term “collusion” the term “collusion”, imo, has almost alway been understood as shorthand for a criminal coordination with the Russian, by everyone. It’s shorthand. End of story.

    Your theory of the words usage around russiagate is interesting albeit, barely relevant to the big questions at hand. Trump’s team was not the only one’s using the term, however. Everyone , pretty much, was saying “collusion”. It was accepted shorthand. In fact, one conservative pundit, suggested that “collusion” was a word liberal media pushed because they did not want to associate their actual “conspiracy theory” with allegations of “conspiracy”. I think the conservative pundit was throwing out a far-fetched theory. Whatever. I don’t think it matters one way or the other, imo.

  81. John Brown
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

    If you didn’t bust a gut and immediately know we were dealing with ruskie stooges when this happened, well you’re a rube.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXA665P9Nic

    Truth? We have positions, not truth, aka lies.

  82. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Too bad his crimes had nothing to do with the President. What’s up with Ukraine interfering with the election by handing over (pre-Trump) dirt on Manafort?

  83. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Truth is lies or positions are lies? I always said narratives are lies you tell yourself and it turned out the russkie stooge one is a total lie. If anything it’s the originators of the bogus “russkie” dossier that are in trouble for conspiring to defraud the USA by fabricating outrageous lies about our newly elected President.

  84. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 2:39 pm | Permalink

    fJB,

    I don’t get it.

    Instead of pointing out one of my many many lies you seem to be saying: Nobody has access to truth. Anybody who has a position (truth claim) is a liar. FF has positions (truth claims) therefore FF is a liar. Do I have that right?

  85. Anonymous
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 2:53 pm | Permalink

    Life is short.

  86. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 2:54 pm | Permalink

    Just let me know if you find out that he is truly satirizing the left so that I can start calling him Fake FakeJohnBrown.

  87. John Brown
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    FF You reveal so much by stating ideology “is a false-belief about the world”. I was not aware that this was widely held. Maybe thats the defining trait of trumptards? To the rest of reality ideology means more or less:

    1. A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.
    “the ideology of republicanism”
    synonyms: beliefs, ideas, ideals, principles, doctrine, creed, credo, teaching, dogma, theory, thesis, tenets, canon(s);

    Notice the difference? Fuckin rube

  88. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    FJB,

    You got me! The term “ideology” can’t be boiled down into 5 words as I tried to do like some kind of fuckin rube. The really smart people offer a more nuanced definition of “ideology”, of about 20 words, and they also offer a list of about a dozen synonyms.

    Marx wrote a lot about ideology. Kind of unnecessarily wordy right? Zizek wrote a book and made a movie about ideology. Totally unnecessary right?I hate to even look at wikipedia. They probably offer multiple paragraphs on “ideology”. Yuck.

    For what? Fake John Brown’s got this… 5 words stupid. But 20 words smart. More than a paragraph on the meaning of “ideology” and you are just wasting your time in your mom’s basement obsessing over the meaning of words. Am I right?

  89. John Brown
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    There’s a succinct definition of Conservatism at the end of this bit. I give it two thumbs up.
    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1134137830299590656?s=19

  90. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 7:07 pm | Permalink

    5% tariff on Mexican goods. Will gradually increase until illegal immigrants coming through Mexico stop.

  91. Jean Henry
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

    HW– why are you only concerned about illegal immigration through the Mexican border? Also, harming the Mexican economy is not going to slow traffic.

  92. Jean Henry
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    iRobert– I never said Trump colluded with Russia. That had zero to do with my point which was about the Mueller report. And the Southern District of NY investigation into the Trump business practices, tangentially. That investigation is still ongoing.

    I don’t have an option about Russian collusion. Collusion isn’t illegal anyway. I have a pet theory that Jared Kushner is a Russian asset, but that’s just for fun.

  93. Sad
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    Over 35% of Democrats haven’t heard of Mayor Pete.

    I guess the debates will be his big coming out.

    IRobert why aren’t you out knocking on doors for Weld?

  94. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    Sad,

    What makes you think I’m not? I post all my comments here from a my iPhone.

  95. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Sad, are you here in Iowa campaigning for your guy?

  96. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

    Sad, are you here in Iowa campaigning for your guy?

    You know, you can still post your comments on this blog from a device here in Iowa.

  97. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:24 pm | Permalink

    “HW– why are you only concerned about illegal immigration through the Mexican border?”

    I told you a long time ago wherever the problems are they should be stopped. Not sure what you mean by only. Trying to insinuate waycism?

  98. iRobert
    Posted May 30, 2019 at 10:40 pm | Permalink

    Jean, I apologize for nischaracterizing your position on the collision topic. It wasn’t my intention. I don’t know what your beliefs are on the subject.

  99. Sad
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 5:38 am | Permalink

    Didn’t your training instruct you to mention your candidate as often as possible?

    Mayor Pete’s people were pretty clear about saying his name as often as possible in all public forums available.

    I’m working California for their new early primary. Big state convention just around the corner. A lot more fun than all those white people in Iowa. Pete’s doing great there, here in Fresno it’s a different story.

  100. Jean Henry
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 6:42 am | Permalink

    HW– Among your many delusions, the greatest may be this, that criminalizing anything ends its practice. Hasn’t ever worked for immigration (or abortion for that matter or drug use or anything). Never will. In most cases, it doesn’t even have a deterrent effect.

  101. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    Someone who makes no sense at all is saying I have delusions. How is a tariff “criminalization”?

  102. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    Jean Henry is one of this communities foremost experts in detecting delusions other people have. Just accept her findings. It does not matter if she is making up non-sense-positions you don’t hold to “show” you suffer from delusion. Just accept her findings.

    #Noquestionsplease

  103. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    I figured out her problem. Her lawyer parents made a living on insinuation. She learned to use words to try to influence the people on an emotional level. It doesn’t have to make sense. It only has to SEEM to make sense to the jury or in this case the readers of Bark Baynard.

  104. Dogmatic Dolt
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    Aloha, Probably won’t notice the 5% tariff. But by this fall and winter when they are at 25% we will all be going back to eating canned peaches. Fresh produce will be to expensive for folks like me on fixed incomes. And of course given the increasing precarious nature of the US agricultural sector (by the time Trump wins his trade wars there won’t be a single family farm left) all food products will be going up in price.
    Has anyone else noticed how less than 50% of the corn crop has been planted? The saying when I was a kid in central Illinois was, You know it is a good year when the corn is knee high by the 4th. of July. This years harvest looks like it is going to be very bad.
    Has anybody else tried the new solent white? The beyond meat they serve at Tower Inn is pretty satisfying for being a GMO yeast product. Don’t know how it taste as a burger but it was good in a spaghetti sauce.
    But hey Russiagate is the most important thing facing the country. But as everyone knows I am just a dolt so how could I get the nuanced importance.

  105. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Why do you need to eat peaches in the Winter? Eat locally grown apples then.

  106. Frosted Flakes
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    I really hate to abandon my elegant “Jean is possessed by demons theory” ,but I have to admit, your theory seems like a plausible explanation, or at least a contributing factor toward explaining her non-sense-way-of-being.

  107. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    Are you serious about eating GMO yeast meat? That’s disgusting.

  108. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted May 31, 2019 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Demons are brilliant and powerful. I think she is just a half-orc or some such foul beast.

  109. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    iRobert,

    I just read your response. Thanks. Yes. It makes sense: He possibly wanted to obstruct/ close-down the investigation simply because he may have been afraid an investigation would expose some improper business dealings with Russians or others.

  110. Sad
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    Aloha dogmatic doom and gloom.

    Are you one of those people that plant a garden?

  111. Anonymous
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    FF,

    Have you JUST NOW thought of this?

  112. Dogmatic Dolt
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 9:07 am | Permalink

    Aloha Sad, My backyard is surrounded by Black Walnuts. They emit a toxin into the ground around their roots. Tomatoes look great until they start to ripen, and then they all rot before they ripen, some goes for peppers. Carrots and potatoes are stunted. That and the wildlife make my gardens nothing but failures. Gave up trying 20 years ago. Raspberries do well and I enjoy picking fresh ones in morning to go in my oatmeal.
    Tulsi is the only Presidential candidate who is addressing our destructive and failing agricultural practices. Meat is toxic both for the individual and society. Minimize your intake, and stop eating red meat for the sake of future generations. Cows are a huge methane producer. Have read that switching their feed from corn to algee and kelp greatly reduces the methane they produce. I grew up in corn land, but it is destroying our health in so many ways.
    https://www.beyondmeat.com/

  113. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    I definitely have held it out as a possibility that Trump was involved in illegal/ improper business dealings over his years. I also bracket that possibility because starting with the assumption that Trump always/ already was a criminal is the kind of starting point conspiracy theorists use to keep their theories afloat.

    There are a lot of powerful people who hate Trump and want to bring him down. Is the Steele Dossier the best “dirt” they could afford to come up with? Unlikely. So assuming Trump is doing all kinds of illegal stuff all over the world, then why didn’t his opposition-research it better and put it on display when they had the resources, a lot to lose, and a presidency to gain?

  114. Dogmatic Dolt
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Aloha Sad, I know I put a lot of “doom and gloom” out there, but when I find good news I share it
    https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/coal-power-uk-record-climate-change-global-warming-fossil-fuels-a8938256.html?fbclid=IwAR27g1yOnKKMdPEtzwX0do4x-ELyMLITHN6izHXIf8kwwfPBJSde8mmVLMc

    It’s just that good news usually comes from countries other than the USA

  115. Dogmatic Dolt
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    Aloha, More “good news” Trumps tax cuts have done exactly what they were intended according to the non-partisan congressional research service. Now we just have to wait for all that wealth to trickle down to us.
    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/05/29/virtually-no-wage-growth-surge-stock-buybacks-study-offers-more-proof-trump-tax-cuts?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1PxPnrZfqoOOoqEbyQPpItln5CKxFr5o8vwOr-9unSNh4t0GASC6nlV_U

  116. Dogmatic Dolt
    Posted June 1, 2019 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Aloha Sad, Sorry to say, more doom and gloom.

    https://www.climatecodered.org/2019/05/unexpected-surge-in-global-methane.html?spref=fb&fbclid=IwAR1_RopWOkt43HhGF23JnDcMuuuOxkorSBg8LBJDfncEKbfPoxrW2Zmcpxk

  117. Jean Henry
    Posted June 9, 2019 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    FF– Trump’s business is a private entity. While there were rumors of rampant fraud and many settled civil suits (including NDA’s), most of the information about his business dealings are private as are all his financial records. His foundation and university were shut down for fraud. He went bankrupt twice. He regularly doesn’t pay vendors etc. He lies compulsively. He has been accused of abusing many women, some under age. He was elected with this information publicly available. I don’t think he wielded enough power for the FBI and State of New York to go after him before. His private dealings with Russia wouldn’t matter much without his position as the President. You ask these questions like they are undiscernable. While I can’t know for sure what the reasoning of law enforcement has been in the past, I suspect they didn’t take him very seriously. Most people didn’t. Your incredulity strikes me as indication that you have been searching for excuses for Trump rather than seriously considering even the possibility of his guilt.

  118. Jean Henry
    Posted June 9, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    It seems the Mueller investigation in its subpoenas and searches received information (mostly financial) that was previously unavailable to investigators. That information was passed to the appropriate regulatory agencies. Those investigations are still underway.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/nyregion/newyorktoday/nyc-news-trump-investigations.html

    Remember that Anthony Weiner’s investigation exposed emails from Huma Abedin that constituted ‘new evidence’ and re-opened the investigation into Hillary Clinton.

  119. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 9, 2019 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

    It is true. My inclination is to give the benefit of doubt to our democratically elected presidents. I had similar stances with Obama, Bush and Clinton too. Presumption of innocence is fundamental.

  120. Jean Henry
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    Critique of democratically elected presidents is also fundamental in a democracy. Ask the founding fathers.

  121. Jean Henry
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    I wasn’t asking you to accuse anyone of anything, which is what the ‘presumption of innocence’ refers to. I was asking you to apply discernment to and consider the validity of criticism of the president, especially when multiple high-level investigations are ongoing.

    The presumption of innocence applies to all citizens and doesn’t mean one is above suspicion. Things wouldn’t work so well in the justice system if that were the case, huh?

    I guess we all look stupid when our reason is so influenced by our political bias, FF.

  122. Anonymous
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 6:37 am | Permalink

    “So assuming Trump is doing all kinds of illegal stuff all over the world, then why didn’t his opposition-research it better and put it on display when they had the resources, a lot to lose, and a presidency to gain?”

    They did! Trump’s illegal and shady dealings were public knowledge. They did come up in the campaign…. repeatedly. The problem was that some voters are just no longer concerned with such matters, unless they are considering voting for a Democrat.

  123. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    Jean and Anonymous,

    It sounds like you guys should call the FBI to share your knowledge of Trump’s illegal dealings. Go for it. I support you!

  124. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    Actual reasoned critique is encouraged. Blind hate that shuts off one’s brain so that conspiracy theories that function to deligitimize, can fill the brain- void are discouraged.

    #callthefbinow

  125. Anonymous
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    Trump’s past legal troubles are well documented.

    My point it that Republican voters of late don’t seem to find them to be an issue when voting compared to Democrats and compared to the past. I think that’s a problem. Republican voters are becoming more and more forgiving of their own, to the point where I am not really sure what the Republican Party even stands for anymore. In the past, it was a bit more clear.

  126. EOS
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    It wasn’t that those who voted for the Republican candidate didn’t have an issue with some of Trump’s behavior, it’s just that his faults were insignificant when compared to Clinton’s.

  127. Anonymous
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Then how did he win the primary?

    There were other Republican candidates there who did not have the same issues that Trump or Clinton had.

  128. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    1) Weak Field?

    2) Hillary’s pied piper strategy?

    Very few people consider Trump a saint. They see him as a necessary counterbalance to the insanity that is the Democratic Party.

  129. Anonymous
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

    Maybe. I do think that voters and the reasons they vote for candidates have changed radically in the past decade. To me, this is has led to a Republican Party that is less ideological and more tribal. I think that is is a real problem for us all.

  130. EOS
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

  131. Anonymous
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    I won’t defend Clinton or the Democratic Party (not being a Democratic voter), but I don’t think that the people who voted in the Republican primaries were thinking about Hillary Clinton when nominating a candidate as flawed as Donald Trump. Most of us thought that anyone could beat Clinton, given her poor general standing. Republican voters (and voters in general) just aren’t the same as they used to be imho.

    Trump’s shifty tax history, his sexual problems, lack of experience, his military record and his generally ambiguous stand on free trade, individual liberties, abortion, guns, Jesus and everything else would have been a deal breaker in the past.

  132. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    I agree. I do think there is a realignment of values/ priorities is happening. I am not sure how the puzzle all fits together but I think the “patriotic dislike of unpatriotic global elites” is part of the Republican psyche. It is the Republican spin on A dissatisfaction , first identified on the left, with gross income inequality and unequal power distribution.

    Of course I just said “globalist elite” which is a racist dog whistle. Except it isn’t at all…Democrats and their love of identity politics was a factor too. Most people see right through those kind of lies…Trump had the chutzpah to call it out and people loved him for it….

    The Democratic Party has been going through some changes too.

  133. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    I hope for two good candidates so it does not matter as much who wins. It’s got to be Tulsi for the Democrats, imo.

  134. Frosted Flakes
    Posted June 10, 2019 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    Another contributing factor:

    Many people have caught onto the war scam. If anything the average Democrat is behind the learning curve on this one. Trump tried to present himself as anti-interventionist and as someone who is judgmental of regime change wars…

    Big factor. Not typical Republican areas of concern but you can’t keep running the same scam on folks and expect them not to catch on eventually.

    Where are the average Dem’s at?

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