While we were all yelling about Trump’s fucking wall, it was established that Paul Manafort funneled internal Trump campaign polling data to the Russians, likely to assist in their anti-Clinton disinformation campaign

I know I should probably be talking about Trump’s ridiculous speech from the Oval Office last night, and how, surrounded by the deplorable misfits that remain his administration, he moved effortlessly from talking about his boundless love for all people to reciting a list of Americans beheaded and beaten to death by hammer-wielding Mexicans, and how he lied repeatedly about everything from how opioids cross the border and the fantastic, magical vehicles driven by drug dealers to the number of people crossing into the country illegally and how our new trade deal with Mexico would pay for the wall, but I’d rather talk about Paul Manafort, and what we just discovered about his time at the head of the Trump campaign.

Thanks to A document that was apparently incorrectly redacted by Paul Manafort’s attorneys, we now have a better sense as to why the former Trump campaign chairman had his plea deal rescinded. It would appear that, among other things, Manafort had lied to Robert Mueller about his interactions with Konstantin Kilimnik, a man thought by U.S. intelligence agencies “to have ties to a Russian intelligence service.” Specifically, it would appear that Manafort lied repeatedly during the course of 12 interviews, and 2 grand jury appearances, about the fact that he had both shared campaign polling data with Kilimnik during the campaign, and met with him in Madrid shortly after Trump was sworn in as President.

While we’d known for some time that Manafort had a relationship with Kilimnik, who is a Russian citizen, since 2005, we didn’t know until now that Manafort, while Trump’s campaign chairman, was sharing internal polling data with him, and this could very well be the last piece of the collusion puzzle that we’d been waiting for… the piece that connects the Trump campaign to Russian intelligence. Of course it’s still conjecture at this point, as we don’t know what Mueller knows, but, as Manafort apparently fought so hard to keep this quiet, knowing that doing so would jeopardize his plea deal, one would imagine it’s incredibly important… Does this mean that Mueller now has proof showing that the Trump campaign supplied information to the Russians, showing them where to focus their now well-documented online disinformation campaigns, like in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania? We don’t know. But it sure seems plausible.

And let’s not forget, it was Manafort who wrote to Kilimnik after getting the job with the Trump campaign, asking “How do we use [this] to get whole?,” referring to the fact that he was millions in debt to Russian Oligarch Oleg Deripaska. [Former Russian spy Victor Boyarkin, who works for Deripaska, just recently said the following about Manafort to Time. “He owed us a lot of money,” Boyarkin said. “And he was offering ways to pay it back.”]

So, to recap, Paul Manafort, who was deep in debt to shady Russian characters, took an unpaid job as Trump’s campaign chairman, and then promptly wrote to Kilimnik, asking how he might use this new position to erase his debt with Deripaska. Then, as we just learned, he not only started sending internal polling data from the Trump campaign to Kilimnik, but he secretly met with Kilimnik in Madrid just after the election, where they apparently discussed a Ukrainian “peace” plan… meaning, of course, a path forward that would see the United States stepping back from the conflict, allowing for Russia to annex the country. [You’ll recall that the the Trump campaign team, during the 2016 Republican National Convention, had already forced a change to the GOP platform, removing mention of our nation’s need to arm the Ukrainians in their fight against Russian and rebel forces in Ukraine, “contradicting the view of almost all Republican foreign policy leaders in Washington,” according to the Washington Post..]

I would say, based on what we know right now, it’s pretty obvious that Manafort was doing the bidding of the Russians while serving as Trump’s campaign chairman. And, I think, by the time all of this is over, we’ll know for a certainty that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. The only remaining question, it would seem, is to what extent Donald Trump was personally aware and profiting from the arrangement. And I think that Manafort knows the answer to that question, which is why Donald Trump has refused to turn on him, like he’s done with others that have accepted plea deals, like Michael Cohen. Trump knows that Manafort could put him in prison for the rest of his life.

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  1. Jean Henry
    Posted January 9, 2019 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    I feel truly confident re the Mueller investigation for the first time since this news broke.

    Of course, when the whole pussy -grabbing thing broke, I told my son that he didn’t have to worry anymore, Trump would never be president…

  2. Anonymous
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    Manafort is more scared of the Russians than he is of dying in prison. That’s telling.

  3. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    I know Mark loves lazy narratives propped up by the lamest sort of identity politics but he really needs to clean up his act if he wants us to believe he cares more about facts and actual people than he cares his narrative.

    Mark said: “[H]e went from talking about his boundless love for all people to reading a list of white Americans beheaded and beaten to death by hammer-wielding Mexicans.”

    Trump referenced four people who were victimized by illegal aliens:

    1) Ronil Singh a california police officer of **Indian** descent, who was murdered.

    2)Marilyn Pharis an air force veteran, who was raped and assaulted.

    3) Robert Page a **Black** man, who was beheaded.

    4) Damaris Alexandra Reyes Rivas a **Child** of **Hispanic** descent who was stabbed and beaten.

    Seriously, Mark you might be surprised how open people are to a rational conversation about Trump’s wall but you have to stop this kind of stuff.

  4. site admin
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    You make a great point, FF. The post will be edited. Please accept my apologies on behalf of everyone here on the staff.

  5. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    Meanwhile, at Legion of Doom headquarters in a secret location deep in The Swamp…


    LinkedIn Inc. founder Reid Hoffman today apologized for funding a company that ran a “misinformation campaign” against a Republican candidate that involved the use of fake Russian bots.

    The campaign was run by a company called American Engagement Technologies through a project called New Knowledge. That project used social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter to boost support for Democrat Doug Jones by pretending that rival Republican Roy Moore was backed by Russians during a special election in Alabama in 2017.

    As detailed by The New York Times Dec. 19, New Knowledge set up thousands of fake accounts with Russian-sounding names and had them follow Moore on social media. Although ultimately Moore won the election, his being followed by so-called Russian-bots gained widespread attention at the time.

    But as it turned out, the whole thing was fake. “We orchestrated an elaborate ‘false flag’ operation that planted the idea that the Moore campaign was amplified on social media by a Russian botnet,” an internal report from AET obtained by the Times stated.

  6. Meta
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    The Washington Post: “The completely inconceivable idea that . . . the president of the United States is an active agent of Russian intelligence, no longer seems completely unthinkable.”


  7. EOS
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Manafort joined the Trump campaign on Mar. 29, 2016 as a campaign manager. On August 18, the AP reported that Manafort had not disclosed previous work as a lobbyist in the U.S. for a political party in the Ukraine. On August 19 he resigned from the Trump campaign. 5 months.

    The story is Manafort supplied information to Russian individuals in exchange for eliminating personal debts he owed, not because Trump thought Facebook posts by Russians would help him get elected.

    Who wouldn’t think Americans would be more nuanced in how to use social media to persuade voters? Your scenario is not believable – it doesn’t pass the smell test. It was easy to find out that Manafort had previously worked with Russians/Ukranians and then the whole treason story is fabricated.

    Whatever Manafort said or did is his personal problem. Certainly it wouldn’t send Trump to prison for the rest of his life.

  8. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 10:04 am | Permalink

    The thing I find weird is we never are given any sort of sense of the possible extent of the supposed misinformation campaign against Hillary. The google CEO did come out to say after an exhaustive study they believed approximately $4700 worth of anti-Hillary adds, with Russian government origin, were taken out.


  9. Jean Henry
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    “As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
    – H. L. Mencken, 1920.

  10. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 10:16 am | Permalink

    Does calling the president a moron somehow redeem that Mencken quote from its obvious anti-democracy and pro-classist sentiment?


  11. CNN's Manu Raju
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 10:54 am | Permalink

    Trump this AM also denied knowing about former campaign chairman Paul Manafort’s sharing of 2016 polling data with a man suspected of being tied to Russian intel.

    “No, I didn’t know anything about it, nothing about it,” Trump told reporters today.


  12. verifyfirst
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    “But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature?” –James Madison, Federalist 51

    Depressing, I know. It has been depressing my entire adult life (last 40 years…..)

  13. Meta
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    CNN: “Robert Mueller met with Trump’s pollster”

    Special counsel Robert Mueller sought information directly last year from one of Donald Trump’s campaign pollsters who is also a former business associate of Paul Manafort’s.

    Mueller’s team met with pollster Tony Fabrizio in February 2018, an interview that has not been previously reported and takes on new significance after Manafort’s attorneys revealed Tuesday that Mueller’s team is still interested in how Manafort shared polling data with his Russian intelligence-linked colleague.

    CNN journalists observed Fabrizio leaving the special counsel’s office on the first of February last year and have since confirmed he was meeting with Mueller’s team. At the time, the special counsel had been digging into Manafort’s finances and political work ahead of his trial.

    Read more:

  14. Lynne
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    I just dream of seeing our president wearing an orange outfit to match his skintone. It may not happen but it is my fondest hope. With my luck he will probably drop dead first but I would so like for him to live to be a 100 but in prison!

  15. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

    John Brown dreams of stripping people of their rights based upon their religious beliefs.

    We should be crossing our fingers that Trump is guilty of some high crime? Or, is a courtroom scene missing in your dreams?

  16. iRobert
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 4:36 pm | Permalink

    Trump will not be removed from office, and will not resign, unless he is impeached. There is no chance of that happening while the US Senate is in GOP hands. Democrats should focus on uniting to defeat Trump AND the GOP Senate. This obsession with removing Trump through any means but the 2020 election process is a waste of energy, resources and attention. The investigation should be allowed to continue unimpeded and to come to completion. Republicans should run one strong candidate to challenge Trump in the primaries, and the Democrats should run a strong candidate to challenge him in the general. There is no point in fantasizing that Trump is going to be leaving the White House any time before January of 2021.

  17. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    Don’t listen to iRobert guys.

    People have telling you your whole life that your dreams of justice, human rights , and equal treatment under the law are impossibly idealistic because the real and cruel world will never allow for their beautiful expression. Now, in this moment, we have a chance to dream a deliciously cruel, seditious and treasonous dream and we should not let the real world or the lofty ideals of justice, human rights, and equality under the law get in our way.

    Why are people always trying to stop us from dreaming?

  18. John Brown
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

    John Brown doesn’t want to strip anyone’s rights without cause. Proven nut jobs aren’t allowed to buy guns, and that’s in a nation owned by the NRA. If you’re delusional enough to believe that god, or dog, will fix humanities problems you are a nut job and shouldn’t have a say in the future of reality, since you’re not a full participant.

    As to the threat of insurrection in defense of a Russian asset – bring it.

  19. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    Of course not without cause, silly.


  20. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Can you tell us more about the nature of reality? It would be preferable if you could share your thoughts on reality, as they occur to you, when you are thinking about reality, while in the long line at Walmart, waiting to purchase ammo… I don’t know why but I have this weird feeling you are at your most spiritually and philosophically connected to The Real when you are shopping at Walmart.

  21. Anonymous
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Does calling John Brown a moron somehow redeem that Walmart quote from its obvious pro-classist sentiment?


  22. Sad
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    C’mon FF even Trump appreciates brute force.

    I’ll wrestle you in mud.

  23. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    I did not call John Brown a moron.

    John Brown, in past posts, has asked us all to buy fire arms and encouraged us to buy ammo. My Walmart comment was not out of the blue as John Brown has also revealed that Walmart is his go-to spot for purchasing ammo. This is true.

    Shopping at Walmart has nothing to do with class, in my mind. Why would you assume I was making a class statement???? I brought up Walmart because it is simultaneously a place John Brown has told us he frequents and it is also the place that seems to me, least conducive to religous and philosophical thinking.

    The key thing is that I want John Brown reveal The Real to us, you know, because that is the thing which he said he is using as a standard by which we ought to deny human rights. If JB thinks he can better express The Real to us from a different locale, other than Walmart, than I would encourage him to report to us from one of those other places.

    (Why is it that the weirdest posts come from people with an Anonymous handle?)

    Seriously though: Why did you assume the Walmart reference was a reference to class?

  24. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

    Seriously Anonymous,

    We have a guy on here who has called the MM.com community a bunch of “pussies” for not “training” and arming up with ammo and guns for the “big fight”. He has also said he thinks it would be good idea to deny voting rights based upon one’s proximity to The Real–as determined by him. And your chosen target of criticism out of that mess is based upon your misassumption that I look down on people that shop at Walmart? (I don’t at all.)

    What the fuck is wrong with this picture?

  25. Sad
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Excuse me, the weirdest post come from someone with the handle Frosted Flakes buddy.

    How about arm wrestling?

  26. Anonymous
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

    FF, Ya gotta take out the plug first before your dog whistle will work right.

  27. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    non sequitur

  28. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 10, 2019 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Anyway, I am willing to listen to your fuzzy thoughts if you want to explain what you are talking about. What are you talking about?

  29. John Brown
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    Evangelicals are the biggest suckers in the history of Earth. Anyone who thinks a 2000yr old fable of the social justice warrior Jesus, that’s been corrupted to justify electing Agent Orange and Falwell Jr screwing pool boys is hopeless.

  30. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Bummer, I was hoping you were going to explain the nature of Reality and how we ought to use groups non-recognition of it, as a standard for stripping voting rights from those groups of people. Maybe later?

    If you would rather talk about Falwell that is cool with me. Can you tell us more about that story? I read a few articles and I just don’t understand what is or might be happening there with Falwell.

    By the way, I am pretty sure “pool attendant” is the preferred nomenclature when referring to a 21 year old who takes care of swimming pools. I suspect there might be a racist and/or classist intent or interpretation behind the use of the term “pool boy”. Maybe we should consult with our local expert on detecting dog whistles?

    So what happened? Falwell screwed him sexually? Falwell screwed him financially? I don’t understand the story.

  31. iRobert
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    I’m thinking about producing a daytime TV show called “The Real” hosted by John Brown.

  32. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    Thank you iRobert.

    I was not aware of that show. I now see why my unconventional usage of the term “The Real” as a stand in for big-R-Reality might be considered some kind of weird attempt on my part to blow a dog whistle in a conversation with someone named “John Brown”.

    I was not referring to that show at all. I have run across that the term, here and there, when reading books and I always liked it because, in my opinion, it strongly distinguishes the notion of “subjective reality” and “objective reality” in an exaggerated way.

  33. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    In addition, I never thought admitting I shop at Walmart would get me out of trouble on mm.com, but I can now see how it might be a good time for me to pull out the “I shop at Walmart” card.

    I also have about 20 different items I routinely purchase from dollar tree.

    They really do have good prices on some things.

  34. EOS
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    @ John Brown,

    God is very accommodating. If you don’t like Him and don’t like to be around Christians, He’ll be sure to send you to another place for the rest of eternity.

  35. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know, EOS. I am beginning to believe in John Brown. I think, at first, I was being closed minded as I let the stories of his ammo trips to Walmart fool me into not believing he is not The One. I am beginning to believe he might really be so in touch with The Real that we ought to, as he suggests, grant voting rights to others based on their proximity to The Real, as he determines it. Additionally, if it is indeed the case that John Brown has a privileged proximity in relation to The Real, then he might actually have some sort of veto power with regard to where he spends eternity.

    Back to earthly concerns: Is Walmart really the best place to buy ammo?

  36. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Oops, “not believing he is not The One” , should read “believing he is The One”.

    So we are clear and so that I might hope to retain my voting rights I do think John Brown is probably The One.

  37. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Man does not live on Walmart bread alone, but also he lives by every case of Walmart ammo that proceedeth from His shopping cart.

  38. EOS
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    Wait… John is really Neo?

  39. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 11, 2019 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    John Brown, I’m not afraid anymore. The oracle told me I would meet a man online. And that man would have stockpiles of ammo, a strict training regiment and a penchant for denying human rights to others based upon their religious beliefs. So you see, you can’t stop answering questions on mm.com. You can’t….Because I really do love the fact that you want to deny voting rights to Christians. You hear me? I love that you hate Christians.

    Now get up! And log yourself back onto MM.com and tell me about Jerry Falwell Jr screwing pool boys!

  40. John Brown
    Posted January 12, 2019 at 7:33 am | Permalink

    Apparently we’re dealing with fucking 6yr olds, who can barely get past tooth fairy and Santa Claus. And 6yr olds don’t get to vote. Frankly an obese white supremacists with a slave army of little people camped out on the artic ice is more believable than a social justice warrior Jew coming back from the dead, an ark with every species, and a heaven and hell.

    You dumbasses are going to black out and feed the worms same as every carbon based life form before you. Stop letting oligarchs manipulate you based on your delusion or we’re all going to be feeding the worms sooner than later.

    And for everyone else here’s a deal on a literal barrel full of NATO 5.56 for your ARs for when these death cult dementos insurrection needs putting down.

  41. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 12, 2019 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Neo: No.

    Tank: How?

    Morpheus: He is The One.

  42. Jean Henry
    Posted January 12, 2019 at 4:53 pm | Permalink

    EOS believes the teachings of the bible are about winners and losers/in group and out group rather than radical acceptance and forgiveness and caring for those otherwise neglected by society. And yes, EOS, I feel very comfortable, even in my faith-challenged state, saying you don’t understand the first thing about Jesus’ teachings. To begin with, there’s this thing called metaphor… And then there’s the evidence of you feeling comfortable speaking to God’s intentions.

    Unlike, John Brown, I have no problem with the idea of more than this world, with the idea that we as humans are so trapped in our own experience that we have no idea what lies outside of earthly existence. I just don’t know. And I don’t think any other human knows either. The more certain people are, the more likely they are wrong. Embracing not knowing is my core spiritual belief and the source of great wonder and awe for me. The bible is a fine but very flawed text written well after the fact by (several) humans and then translated by more over centuries and cultures and languages. And so, it reflects human spiritual striving generally– as anyone with an independent mind can discern when reading it. One can learn a great deal about what it is to be human from reading it. I don’t believe it offers any channel to understanding anything more.

    FF might consider embracing the idea of metaphor as well… And not just his own.

  43. Jean Henry
    Posted January 12, 2019 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    FF– re Mencken: Understanding democracy’s weaknesses and human failing is neither classist nor anti-democratic. Such ideas were central to the enlightenment that formed the intellectual basis for our country’s genesis and system of governance. You can find many of the founding fathers stating similar ideas. The quote states the risks of populist appeals to democracy. Democracy itself relies on the higher collective intelligence of the crowd (we say ‘cloud’ these days) but is subject to the madness of crowds as well. Cults of personality like those around Trump place it all at risk. Your unwillingness to think independently around Trump’s actions is evidence enough of partisanship’s dulling effect on an otherwise intelligent mind. I don’t think there’s any evidence that educated and wealthy Americans are any smarter about their voting than non-educated and poorer ones. Trump’s election demonstrates that well enough.

  44. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 12, 2019 at 5:49 pm | Permalink


    You might want to check out the wikipedia page on Mencken’s writing on class, caste, hierarchy, “superior men” and race. It is pretty damning stuff….

    The quote you highlighted comes from an interesting context though. He seemed to be arguing that truly “superior men” who run for office, prior to tv, might be able to win over a small crowd in person. But the more vacuous men always seem to win, according to him, in nationwide races where there is not the close proximity to the actual voters who are hearing about the candidates first and second hand. (I am not sure what he meant or how it applies to Trump in the age of TV.)

    Bottom line for me: Trump is not nearly as stupid as Democrats think he is and Democrats are not nearly as smart as they think they are. I also think the average Trump supporter is far more open and prepared to engage in topics of discussion; and far more able to see the other point of view as well as their own. It’s not even close at this point in time, imo.

  45. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 12, 2019 at 6:15 pm | Permalink

    oops, should read: “But the more vacuous men always seem to win, according to him, in nationwide races where there is not the close proximity to the actual voters who are hearing about the candidates second hand.”

  46. Jean Henry
    Posted January 12, 2019 at 8:49 pm | Permalink

    Mencken had a lot of issues, none of which were evident in that quote or its context, which nevertheless inspired your righteous rage. I don’t expect people to be perfect or require that to value their work where the work is good. There would be nothing left to value if I held those standards. Most humans are flawed and beautiful in equal measure. Trump is an exception.

    TV does not bring us closer to candidates. It makes them famous. Trump is a TV personality. Most of us knew little about who he really is before he was elected. Within NYC where he was a local character (who ripped off a LOT of people) he was better known as the megalomaniac, idiot, liar, and cheat that he is. Trump lost handily on his home turf.

  47. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    The quote expressed a classism and an anti-democracy sentiment that is consistent with the writers stated views.

    I don’t think the average American is a moron. I don’t think Trump is a moron.

    I don’t like the quote. If you like the quote then that is your choice.

  48. Maria Huffman
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 5:18 am | Permalink

    Mencken’s writings are trash. I recommend no one bother reading it or let their child read it . Sincerely, Maria Huffman

  49. John Brown
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 7:52 am | Permalink

    So no reaction to the fact that anybody with a credit card can buy a barrel of 14,000 rounds of military grade AR15 ammo? Who is the “target” consumer? Surely not some underemployed lefties. What’s going to happen in a society selling mass quantities of ammo to sustain extended battles? Anyone?

  50. Jean Henry
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    JB– A lot of military grade equipment goes unused. They exist, ironically, to help people feel secure. That presence doesn’t mean they will be used. Many guns are never fired.

  51. Jean Henry
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Maria Huffman should spend more time examining her own writing and thinking and less recommending censorship. Sincerely, Jean Henry

  52. Jean Henry
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 8:13 am | Permalink

    “The quote expressed a classism and an anti-democracy sentiment that is consistent with the writers stated views.
    I don’t think the average American is a moron. I don’t think Trump is a moron.
    I don’t like the quote. If you like the quote then that is your choice.”

    THAT is the kind of non-defense of your position that you always accuse others of, FF. “Well that’s your opinion.” is not a counter. It’s an evasion.

    Give me three examples please where Trump was not a moron. As for the rest of my argument, you simply didn’t address it. Please do so. And provide evidence for your statements. Then I can address each one with a reason-based response. Anything short of that will be dismissed out of hand. That’s your ‘homework.’

    (Turn around is fair play. How’s it feel, FF?)

  53. Jean Henry
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 8:15 am | Permalink

    PS Mencken did not call the average American a moron in that quote, but I’m sure he did elsewhere. Again, the whole exercise of democracy is about balancing out the moronic in all of us.

  54. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Regarding turnaround: I feel nothing, Jean.

    The pro-classist and anti-democracy sentiment, appears to me, as self-evident in the quote.

    Mencken wrote: “”[I]t is impossible to talk anything resembling discretion or judgment to a colored woman. They are all essentially child-like, and even hard experience does not teach them anything.”

    Mencken also wrote: “I admit freely enough that, by careful breeding, supervision of environment and education, extending over many generations, it might be possible to make an appreciable improvement in the stock of the American Negro, for example, but I must maintain that this enterprise would be a ridiculous waste of energy, for there is a high-caste white stock ready at hand, and it is inconceivable that the Negro stock, however carefully it might be nurtured, could ever even remotely approach it. The educated Negro of today is a failure, not because he meets insuperable difficulties in life, but because he is a Negro. He is, in brief, a low-caste man, to the manner born, and he will remain inert and inefficient until fifty generations of him have lived in civilization. And even then, the superior white race will be fifty generations ahead of him.”

    He has some fucked up things to say about Jewish people too….

    If you want to defend Mencken, or if you want to fail to see what sure seems to be self-evident then that is your choice, Jean.

  55. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Funny shit! Tiresome though to have to actually play all this out because someone doesn’t have the awareness to understand they have already been defeated long ago.

  56. Jean Herny
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 7:35 pm | Permalink

    FF–Eugenics was part of the thinking of the day. You’d have to cut out most of the great thinkers of the early 20th century if you decided to censor based on racism and anti-semitism. I don’t judge historical figures by contemporary standards. I take what they have to offer. Your cheap moralism is a dull and blunt instrument. Why is it Republicans always fulfill their own worst image of PC culture when they try to dismiss others?

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    Oh shit!

    President Trump:

    “The whole Russia thing is a hoax… Everybody knows it… Wait till you see how it all ends up. You watch. McCabe, Lisa Page, Strzok. You watch. Including some others I should not name. I better not. You watch. It would make front page news if I do. You’ll be surprised at the names of the people involved in the corruption.“

  58. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 7:51 pm | Permalink

    It is weird as hell if you follow the whole thread.

    Out of all of this, the most important concern of the of MM.com community was whether or not I was “accusing” John Brown, via a dog whistle, of being a Black Walmart shopper?

    Lol. The whole thing is so weird.

  59. iRobert
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Be careful, Frosted Flakes. You’re treading dangerously close to inviting a visit from the tone police.

  60. Sad
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    FF spends paragraph after paragraph extolling his superiority while condemning those who think they are superior.

    I’ll wrestle you in jello.

  61. iRobert
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

    I’m getting the impression that nobody wants to talk about Manafort funneling internal Trump campaign polling data to the Russians. Courage, my fellow maytards…courage!

  62. Jean Henry
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 10:08 pm | Permalink

    FF’s cheap moralism bores me. It’s a blunt and dull instrument applied selectively and worse to his own political convenience. The right can be relied upon to invoke political correctness when convenient to dismiss a complex idea. They consistently embody the worst of what they imagine in progressive principles. It makes no more sense to judge historic figures by contemporary standards and morays than it would to judge us by 19th century standards, Contemporary scholars will apply a contemporary analytic lens to history and historical figures. They don’t dismiss the good ideas and actions of the past because of the bad ones.

  63. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    “FF–Eugenics was part of the thinking of the day. You’d have to cut out most of the great thinkers of the early 20th century if you decided to censor based on racism and anti-semitism. I don’t judge historical figures by contemporary standards. I take what they have to offer. Your cheap moralism is a dull and blunt instrument. Why is it Republicans always fulfill their own worst image of PC culture when they try to dismiss others?”


    It sounds like you think the Mencken quote offers us something. What does the Mencken quote offer us in your opinion? What is the intended takeaway of the Mencken quote?

  64. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 13, 2019 at 10:55 pm | Permalink

    “The quote states the risks of populist appeals to democracy. Democracy itself relies on the higher collective intelligence of the crowd (we say ‘cloud’ these days) but is subject to the madness of crowds as well.”

    If you are sticking with this interpretation that is your choice. I don’t interpret the quote the same way you do. Who cares?

    I think we can both agree on “cheap”, “boring”, and “dull”.

  65. Freddie Brooks
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    In fact, Manafort somehow knew enough to tell Trump to go spend time in the unlikely state of Michigan just days before the election.

    The Michigan tidbit, which you can find casually buried in the twenty-first paragraph of this Bloomberg article, went largely unnoticed when it was reported two weeks ago but should have set all off all kinds of sirens. Based on demographics, Michigan should have been an automatic win for Hillary Clinton, and every poll confirmed as much.


  66. Freddie Brooks
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    So if Manafort was telling Trump to make a weird last minute move like running to Michigan and Wisconsin, it had to have been because the Kremlin told Manafort to tell Trump to do it. The only reason the Kremlin would do this is if its hackers had already rigged those two states in Trump’s favor, and it wanted him visible there, so people would be less shocked when he “won” those two states.


  67. EOS
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 9:32 am | Permalink


  68. iRobert
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 11:36 am | Permalink

    It seems apparent, EOS, that Republicans are far more concerned with campaign espionage perpetrated against them by Democrats, than they are with espionage perpetrated against America by the nation’s adversaries which it exposed. Am I correct about that?

  69. EOS
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    Yes. There has been no evidence presented that any activity by Russia has been significantly different from what normally occurs between the two nations. However, it seems extremely obvious that Mueller has substantial ties to those in the Obama administration that used our intelligence agencies as weapons against their political opponents. The pattern of governmental abuse perpetrated by the Obama administration far exceeds any previous administration. There is significant evidence of wrongdoing by Obama, Clinton, Comey, Lynch, the FBI, the CIA, many in Congress in both parties, major media outlets as well as a number of others. There’s a wide body of evidence and a long history of corruption by many of the players. And if these acts go unpunished, there will be significant disorder in our nation for years to come, that is, if our nation even survives. Unfortunately, I think that was the end game of the Internationalists all along. The government and media no longer have any credibility. Few have the intelligence or the wherewithall to connect the dots. Half of those are the ones perpetrating the fraud, the other half are trying to effect change from outside the system with little success. And the vast majority don’t give a damn as long as beer is cheap, pot is legal, and the home team wins on Sundays.

    And one last parting comment. Russia is not our enemy. They may be able to strike us, but we can easily overpower them. China is our enemy. They have stated this publicly, they vastly outnumber us, and they own a significant proportion of our debt and our property.

  70. iRobert
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

    So, EOS, do you believe Paul Manafort funneled internal Trump campaign polling data to the Russians? Or do you feel that detail is fabricated?

  71. Anonymous
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    I find it hard to believe that Trump didn’t know about all of this illegal shit going on around him on his behalf. I also find it hard to believe that he didn’t condone it.

  72. EOS
    Posted January 14, 2019 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    I think he may have admitted to that. But what I am skeptical about is his reasons for doing so. The Democrats would have us believe that in spite of paying for high quality data from Cambridge Analytics, they recruited Manafort because his ties to Russia allowed the Trump campaign an avenue to give this data to the Russians. And the Russians, after receiving this data, were able to spend less than 5k in Facebook ads and sway the national election results, thereby stealing the election from the heir apparent – Hilliary.

    Supposedly, Manafort provided the data in exchange for a reduction in the debts he owed. Possibly this was a step in recruiting him as an intelligence asset. And as soon as Trump found out that Manafort had not disclosed the fact that he was a lobbyist for a Ukraine political party, Trump asked him to resign. Hardly seems like a plan to use Russia to overthrow the election.

    Do you think Trump needed Russia’s help to beat Hilliary? The published polls in Michigan were so close I couldn’t vote third party. And the turnout in the urban areas was lower than 2012.

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