Climate change deniers should be treated like war criminals. https://t.co/6XFigtRFyO
— Mark Maynard (@MarkAMaynard) July 4, 2018
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I should have said, “Climate change deniers ‘in government’ should be treated like war criminals.” Otherwise, I stand by this.
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148 Comments
Agreed. But don’t expect the fascists to do it. We must get comfortable with threat of force as a political tool.
What fantasy world do you live in? We dont have time for a larger culture war. Dems haven’t done shit about climate changes even when and where they could. Denialism was a p[olitical strategy, playing to divisiveness, playing to hatred of liberal causes to protect the oil industry interests. But even as the oil industry was funding that political game, it was also funding research into climate change and adaption. Because businesses need to look far ahead and predict and manage for disruption. It’s not about values. It’s just their job.
And business interests (those giant corporations leftists love to hate) is why we are still moving forward in climate action and adaption and the necessary technological innovations in spit of Trump.
The worst thing that ever happened to climate action was that it became a partisan football. And you want to double down on inaction and look for some group to blame.
I hate the fake news climate denial too. And it’s worth fighting against. But we also, once again, failed to look at how horribly the left failed. In Ann Arbor we have had a climate action plan on the books for 5 years. It just got funded and people in Ann Arbor are pissed that money went there instead of to other areas. UM failed to meet its climate action goals and has increased emissions. Have you been looking at these things. We dont need the government to get on board to take action. We should all be doing it right now. And we aren’t. We are all waiting for tech innovation to bail us out. And that’s not a bad choice given how shitty humans are at change on their own.
But the idea that the GOP are to blame for inaction is bullshit. And saying so will only exacerbate the real problem, which is not denial but inaction, And even those who accepted climate change was happening a long time ago, the vast majority, are not acting.
Wanna stick them in the gulag too?
How do scapegoats function? Let’s review. They focus blame on a single person or group in order to prevent broader accountability and diffuse the energy around an issue so it fades from view.
Fuck scapegoats. I’ve seen the enemy and he is us.
Name one Dem policy that had a meaningful impact on climate change (Paris accord doesn’t count). Fracking had more positive impact… That’s fucking sad.
I agree that Democratic action on climate change is insufficient, but it is not the case that the Democratic Party has pushed climate denialism.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the Democrats likely wanted to do more on global warming, but were thwarted by the Republicans and Fox News, who , on the part of the Koch brothers and their ilk, had convinced a good percentage of Americans that climate change was not a threat, but instead some kind of globalist plot to diminish American awesomness and make us drive less macho cars.
I think Jean is right on target when she says. “We dont need the government to get on board to take action. We should all be doing it right now. And we aren’t.”
We as individuals must act. Our government is less responsive to us than it has ever been. It is fully highjacked now. Any change we want, we must do ourselves, starting in our own lives. Everything we buy, everything we do, is how we actually vote for what we want.
Make no mistake about it, revolution is always necessary to improve things – But not revolution in a violent sense necessarily. I am talking about revolution in the general sense. For any positive political or social change to occur, there has to be a flood of revolutionary action no matter what.
The people I know who bitch about climate change the most are the same people who consume the most. Want to help with climate change? Stay home and don’t buy shit.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/great-recession-was-good-environment
Seth MacFarlane: “The 5 warmest years on record have all occurred since 2010. Declines in Arctic sea ice hit record lows in 2017. Add supercharged hurricanes, California’s deepest drought on record, and an average surface temperature increase of 2 degrees F over the past century.”
Sad, it’s not necessary to stay home, and it’s not necessary not to buy shit. It is only necessary that the things you do when you leave home and the things you buy, do not finance the conpanies which are contributing most to the climate destabilization.
A person doesn’t even have to believe in climate change to understand how important it is for us to have minimal impact on our environment, and to live harmoniously with the natural environment as possible.
Who do you buy your gas from?
Mark– You aren’t listening. you called for prosecution as war criminals. That implies you were fighting. Were you?!? Because from here it doesn’t look like we were. Or very few of us were.Even while Obama was in office and we had capacity to act very few liberal municipalities stepped up, including our own. There was a lot of good intention and a lot of hand wringing and debate, but very little action. On a personal or institutional level. And the institutions were not held accountability in liberal places. The reality is that government will never work quickly enough to deal with the scope of this problem. But blaming climate denialism is bullshit. It wasn’t just the GOP in denial. All of us have been. Even those of us who have taken steps have been. This has not been our primary concern except as it suits us politically to blame the GOP.
Again, please tell me what Dems have done where they could to mitigate climate risks. I actually have some answers, but I’m not going to give them to you because the left as a whole has not given a hit about this issue except as apocalyptic, off the grid, re-education fantasy about the eventual comeuppance for consumerism or as a way to demonize the right.
I worked on this issue for 7 years and the most liberal people and leaders in this city told me they weren’t ‘passionate’ about the issue. It’s hard, and government inaction can make it harder, but even when incentives existed we did not take enough advantage of them,
Business moved forward. Big Business. At UM at the time, Ross was the only place taking steps to reduce climate impact and educate its students. Ross. SNRE did so as well but not nearly as effectively. Dealing with climate inaction completely changed my viewpoint about what might save us and it was the opposite of the answer I was hoping for.
So go ahead an demonize climate denialism on the right. You are simply ignoring the real and larger issue. They should not have the capacity to stop us, but they do. And I think having a handy scapegoat around is a piece of that.
We humans are fucked. And it’s on us, all of us, not some imaginary them.
Othering is easy. The work is hard.
PS iRobert. Personal behavior change was not a fruitful avenue to pursue. We should have been pushing institutional players from the beginning and hard to make the path to personal behavior change more likely. And that is a combination of regulation and incentives and funding of private innovation as well as committed targets. The Paris agreement got us all that, though not enough, but there was no follow through here. The only follow through was the commitment of billions to the private sector.
On second thought. maybe its a good thing the left wasn’t paying attention. They would have fucked up that agreement good.
Governments are less reliable and quick in adapting to change than private industry. Stop blaming the Republicans and the people that fell for their lines. You fell for some of your own. We need to step up now. It is not time in any way for retribution or accountability. We are being held accountable to our actions by a much greater force.
And she’s going to fuck us up. I’m sure you’ll blame the GOP until the end. And every time you do, you weaponize an issue that should be bi-partisan and make progress less likely.
We’ll all die in our corners.
I don’t buy gas, Sad. I ride a bike to work, and sometimes use public transportation. How about you?
It took me a while to get to the heart of my point so this bears repeating:
“We are being held accountable to our actions by a much greater force.
And she’s going to fuck us up. I’m sure you’ll blame the GOP until the end. And every time you do, you weaponize an issue that should be bi-partisan and make progress less likely.
We’ll all die in our corners.”
And I’m not the only one saying this. Look out there at what the experts are saying.
Climate inaction became a useful political tool on both sides and that dynamic prevented government action that might have pushed us further along than where we are now.
Dont fall for it. It’s counter productive even if it may make you feel better. We should not feel better. We should feel sick. Every fucking day for the risk we have failed to adequately acknowledge ad the responsibilities we have failed to address. And our children’s children will pay. For sure now. There will be a reckoning and it won’t be a tribunal and it won’t selectively affect the GOP. It will be indiscriminate, not just. but mostly impacting the poor. And all of that will be on all of us, because we forgot our humanity in this divisive tribalism. Tribalism is our greatest weakness as a species. All the other weaknesses fold into it. And its going to take us out.
Getting righteous about your personal behavior and shaming others is no different than what Mark did, iRobert.
I’m pleased with anyone who takes steps. That’s great. Use it to encourage others to do the same. Dont shame people so they stick their heads back in the sand.
It’s self-congratulatory and smug and it DOES NOT WORK.
I buy gas.
That’s why I try to stay home. Everyone’s circumstances are different.
I guess I ( reluctantly ) agree with you. We have a lot of power. It’s not always the bogie man making things bad. In many different spheres.
If an individual can go cold turkey from fossil fuels, then they should do so. Those who can’t, can still take steps to minimize their use. Maybe eventually they can reduce that consumption to something near zero.
Are you going to join me, Sad. Or are you just going to continue to make excuses?
Did I work hard enough? Probably not, Jean. I protested outside John Dingell’s office, back when he was a climate change denier. I wrote about the subject here. I bought an hybrid car to help, in my little way, there was a market. I donated to a few causes. And I’m hosting a solar event in Ypsi on the 17th. But, no, I didn’t take up arms and storm into an Exxon shareholders meeting with guns blazing. And I didn’t go completely off the grid. And I made the choice to have children. So, given that, should I just shut up? Am I not pure enough to call out those in power who lied in order to stall reform efforts. And, for what it’s worth, there were efforts. In addition to the Paris Accord, which was good, but not nearly enough, there were efforts to pass carbon taxes, etc. As I said before, though, it was hard to do anything in an environment of denial.
You can use a bike to leave your house. You can also walk places. It’s actually good for your health too, Sad.
Naomi Klein write a bunch about how the Dems simply used Climate Change politically and their base loved that excuse-making and did not hold them accountable to action.
I have many issues with Ms. Klein and still dont understand how she squared her concern about climate inaction and economic inequality with support for Benie’ no plan Sanders. But she was not alone. I guess she blamed the Dem party apparatus. And maybe that’s apt but I blame us for being such suckers for the party line, especially when it gets us off the hook, for racism, sexism and climate inaction.
Anyway, she wrote a book about it. It’s ok. She is incapable of seeing either the progress corporations and tech sector have made or the influence they wield over human behavior as an opportunity. Bummer,
Thanks iRobert. You seem like a good guy in spite of your racist, sexist and homophobic tendencies.
Everyone in America is party to racism, sexism, homophobia and climate inaction. What part of systemic problem, don’t you understand SAD? It’s not personal. Making it so, is a just a defensive move– yet another way to avoid facing up to our collective responsibilities.
No I’m going out for a walk. Nice day.
Meaningful climate change action requires coordinated human activity as a species. Focusing on the individual martyr approach pleases the carbon industry. And it’s another form of elitism. Like shopping at Whole Paycheck, I can afford to install solar panels.
We’re so far up the fucking atmospheric CO2 curve people, that serious adaptation will already be necessary. I’ll be surprised if we do any good at that, never mind adequate drastic mitigation.
And I also assumed Mark was ready to fight so we can have those climate denier trials! Right on.
Thanks, Sad. Although, I have to admit, I’m not a nice guy. Only a very few people have gotten the nice guy treatment from me. Everyone else gets the default setting, which is the bitter, annoyed, angry, hostile guy.
It’s true, I am extremely racist, sexist, and homophobic. I hate almost all white people and almost all men. I also have an irrational fear of gay guys. I still think they’re generally nice people though – definitely less loathsome than most heterosexual guys.
I myself am pretty misanthropic. Black, Asian, Gay, Republican it doesn’t really matter. But I’ve learned to nod and be polite.
The debate between the system and the individual goes back probably to Pliny the Elder, or further. I prefer the individual. I can change my behavior now. The system not so much. If every individual changed the system would change? No?
I know better than to waste my time arguing with my intellectual superiors though. I ‘m no HW. Not that there’s anything wrong with HW.
MM you really do a great service with this blog. Don’t let the peanut gallery get you down. It’s truly impressive in both the quantity and quality of your output. And if it wasn’t for you I’d have to look At Electablog.
I would have thought that it was a given that coordinated human activity is necessary. That doesn’t excuse individuals from doing what they can immediately also. I’m sure a lot of blowhards talk about the need for massive coordinated action just to make themselves feel better about not doing anything on a personal level.
Yeah blowhards suck. Fighting the battle for a govt that can actually deliver meaningful policy on climate change should excuse no one from personal responsibility.
WRT climate policy and our current politics recall the nexus of Exxon, Tillerson, Putin. Also review the Petro industry research on Artic ocean oil rig engineering on ice pac survivability of rigs. Clearly there is a major carbon industry component to this trump Christopher fascist cabal. Putin wants to dominate artic oil extraction including encroaching on Canada’s exclusive waters in their artic archipelago.
The battle against trumpism is for the planet. No pressure.
Generally speaking, most Americans don’t seem to ibnderetabd how democracy works. This leads to some pretty intense partisan bullshit around issues that matter a great deal to humanity. Even existential issues. And we can’t blame it on Trump or the GOP really. We didn’t prioritize it. We only used it to make fun of people who didn’t buy it. Which made the situation impossible to address. And then we conveniently continue to blame the others. We have our part.
Whether or not you recycle or use plastic bags has negligible impact on your carbon footprint. Not driving is good but if you fly regularly or buy Food that’s flown here well it all is kind of a wash.
The impact of industry is much much higher. And we don’t ask enough of them. And we don’t ask enough of government st all levels.
Personal behavior changes are nothing next to what could have been accomplished with citizen presssure, had we bothered.
Buying organic food is not inherently lower in ghg emissions. That shit is really complicated. Giving up conventional meat may be the best step you can make in that regards but I haven’t yet. Because I know what really matters is that we as a country mentally embrace the need for change and innovation in everything we do. We need to get excited about the massive shift before us. There’s just no energy there now. We aren’t there yet.
I can count on one hand the clients I have who asked for help with Climate action/sustainability/ even Just energy saving measures ($$ saving) . People are intimidated by what’s before us. And it’s not that complicated. We complicate it with shame and guilt. Smalm businesses can have a huge impact collectively and save money. But it takes attention and effort. We don’t care that much. We like blaming the GOP more.
When’s the last time you asked a business you frequent what steps they’ve taken to reduce climate impact? If they are really doing the work they will be quick to answer. Because it takes commitment and energy to do it right. And it saves money too. I’m just as guilty. I stopped even bringing it up. The interest isn’t there.
Maybe I’ll take this depressing post and the anger and frankly resentment it brought up and figure out a better way to get businesses back in the Climate action game.
Some balm I guess to get back to trying at least.
Basically people test climate action like a diet. It’s seen as a form of self-deprivation when what is required is a massive lifestyle switch and that might not even work. So long as we think of it as a diet, we’ll keep binging and purging. We’ll do thing like Buy a Prious then drive twice as much.
Generally speaking liberals are much more interested In Virtue signaling about climate action than really doing anything about it.
I’m still so disappointed about it. I’ll probavly be disappointed about that work and what I learned about humans while doing it forever.
I have a plan to be on mostly renewable power within 5 years. It has nothing to do with any desire on my part to help with the climate change problem. It is more that I want the independence not having a utility bill could bring me. Same with staying in and reading. Just a way to save money for solar panels, batteries, and what not.
Truth is, I don’t care that much about climate change. I realized that that one of my choices has a significant carbon footprint and I didn’t care enough to change. That is dog ownership. At the time, I had read that a medium sized dog has the carbon footprint of an SUV. I owned three dogs, a cat, and a bird at the time and I realized right then that I cared more about them than the planet. However I have not replaced them as they have died off and just have one dog now. So THAT is where I care more about climate change. I realized that there are lots of things in my life where I feel that I care more about making that choice than I cared about climate change. . Possibly because I dont have children? I don’t know.
What I do know is that I am not alone. I suspect I am probably in the majority. Most people believe in climate change. Most people have changed their behavior in ways which can help. Almost everyone has *something* or even a lot of somethings that they just care about more than climate change. That is why although encouraging individuals to make changes is valuable and necessary, we must also work on making systemic changes that can guide people to good choices even if they really don’t care that much about climate change or even deny it!
One irony I came across recently in that there are these fringe libertarians out west. They are living off grid. They use solar power because they cant afford RV parks and solar is cheaper than a generator if you can reduce your power needs. They do this. They live in places like Slab City in California. They often are vegan because dry beans don’t require refrigeration. In short, they have extremely low carbon footprints. And a LOT of them are straight up MAGA climate deniers! Systems are powerful and it is ok if people make the right choices for the wrong reasons.
+
LYNNE–There’s not a chance in hell that your dog or even three dogs has the carbon footprint of an SUV, assuming one drives 10000 miles a year. There are so many variable to consider in making any comparison, but I feel confident saying your dog has nominal carbon footprint. Even if it farts a lot. I’m sorry someone gave you such incredibly bad information.
For most people transportation and household and workplace utilities are their largest impacts. New home construction is also a big contributor. The meat thing is often overstated. It would be much more effective to change what livestock eat to reduce methane and then use their manure for fertilizer than current practices. Neither of those is hard to implement even on a big ag scale. We just dont bother.
There’s a lot to figure into any calculation and for the most part the numbers are pretty wonky.
Being off the grid is just one thing among many that a lot of survivalists out west have in common with left wing segregationists. Thats a fine choice for anyone to make, but you can also produce energy and tie into the grid and contribute to our energy security and reduce your gig Co2e emissions by as much. And you can eat more than dried beans. (Which I love and eat almost daily in some form) Its not about suffering. Or it doesn’t have to be. Technology… The self-flagellation thing isn’t sustainable and doesn’t motivate people. I have no idea why we insist on that narrative.
What I should have said, very simply, is that you can do pretty much anything you want to do more sustainably and most of us would be better off in terms of emissions reduction thinking about how to be less wasteful in what we do anyway than in dratcically changing our personal habits. Reducing emissions is more in the how than the what. It’s really just a form of paying attention, like any kind of economizing, and it’s kind of easy. All that said, Americans are really really bad at it… So there’s that.
Our consumption levels are grotesque and most of it is waste. That’s an expensive habit. Might as well throw away money.
But one person’a great solution will not be yours. And they should not be. Dont give up something you love. You dont have to. And it’s really and press for climate action to sell the idea that climate action is about sacrifice.
The “Lesser evil” has gotten us hear. Good liberals like JH who support fracking are as responsible for the catastrophe as the Kocks. As JH says, she has seen the enemy and it is “us”. The science has been settled (at least in its general terms if not every specific) since the mid-80’s. Hope and Change Obama was the “hope” and he sold out to the carbon industries (while the liberal intelligentsia cheered him on). Where was the liberal intelligentsia when Obama grew our carbon exports and turned the US into the leading oil producer on the planet? Coal, why the hell not? We have no future, time to cash in while we can. All that carbon in the ground will be worthless very quickly, got to turn it into cash while we can.
This is a hopeful article–if we have enough time
https://www.juancole.com/
Al B– Other than taking a position on climate change, what work did you do to create change. I’m from PA. I understand a lot of the downside of fracking. I’m in no way an unconditional supporter. When I brought up fracking, my point was to say it was the only effective way we have reduced US emissions in the last 30 years since we knew about climate change. And that’s fucked up.
It is fucked up. I dont know what you supported but a lot of measures were tried and failed, So much so that their is now a field of scholarship studying climate inaction. And that inaction includes radicals who put forward such restrictive visions of a sustainable future as to put off millions of people from taking action or giving a shit.
On of the things climate inaction studies have shown is that what excites and enthuses the most politically active 10% on either end of the climate change debate, puts off the remaining 80%. And unfortunately the 10% on either end dominated debate about climate change for the last 40 years, preventing a lot of sensible and effective action.
We are facing a crisis and we need to accept whatever solutions and practices work even if they are politically inconvenient.
If your radicalism prevents you from accepting the progress made in private industry to help us all reduce our impact than you might as well be denying the problem.
You’ll go down wagging a finger. no doubt feeling great about yourself. What could be more liberal???
We’re all doing the best we can.
Actually I take that back, we’re not. Not even close. That doesn’t prevent us from getting all righteous, myself included.
Al B– Juan Cole is excellent on climate change. Good to see you referenced an article that showed how industry innovation around electric vehicles may eventually undermine the oil industry. Just like Fracking killed coal.
Lastly I think I was clear that I was disappointed with Obama re his leadership on climate change. I dont think liberals have helped things much. I dont think they should be patting themselves for believing climate change was happening when they mostly did nothing to address it. They for sure shouldn’t be condemning denialisms, most of whom actually believed what they said. Those people have the excuse of ignorance, right?
To add to my growing depression: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/7/3/17522810/aliens-fermi-paradox-drake-equation
I have come to think of aliens in very hopeful terms. Maybe they’d be better than us.
The choice is simple: Eat your pets and children or prepare to be charged with war crimes.
Fracking hasn’t helped a damn thing. Wait for it – because some percentage of that poison injected into the geology is going to percolate back up into the ground water leaving PA with spoiled ground water while struggling to adapt to climate change. Ever heard of Gelman? Deep well injection was just a prototype version of fracking and how’d that work out? Oy.
While I think that options other than fossil fuels need to (and are being) pursued for eventual replacement, I have to say that I have no opinion on fracking over any other kind of fossil fuel extraction method because I simply don’t know enough about it.
On the one hand we have information (and misinformation) from industry which has an interest in fracking, on the other we have a reactionary left with a political interest who might overstate risks, and even fabricate data.
On the other we have that ridiculous documentary Gasland, which went around setting water faucets on fire. Anyone who has ever lived in the country knows that you can do this, with or without fracking.
So, I don’t know what to believe.
Plant a fucking tree.
Lol
On the other other hand we have science. One thing that you can believe, 100%, is that when humans engineer the natural environment there are consequences, most of which are unanticipated, in every possible example. Dams, burning carbon, man-made connecting channels, nuclear power, etc. All huge downsides to deal with. Fracking should be obvious. Visualize pressurized poison water under ground seeping through strata of variably permeable rock. It really is that simple.
Add to that the super cheap gas prices as a result and the subsequent super sizing of our vehicle fleet and one can argue fracking has set us back decades in climate change efforts.
Was Tesla full of shit? No such thing as free wireless electricity generated by the Earth itself?
Phuuuuck lizard people in the vatican wooooooah redpill the normies 420cbdstonedjesterbonghiyltz
Mr. Brown, with science very little is obvious.
I am incluned to oppose fracking because it prolongs our use of fossil fuel but cannot oppose it for the reasons that american leftists present.
No AC without Tesla. Put your amp out on the curb and forget about using computers or electric heat or anything. Cut your AC/DC records in half and run your stereo off an exercise bike because there would be only DC without the man.
Perhaps the kushlord is finally weening himself off the right wing conspiracy sites and coming back to reality
twerpy derp
A sad man. He has devastated his brain through decades of marijuana abuse.
Likely a lost cause.
The only people buying your shit is the few other derps on here. You are going to lose everything including your backwards little mind. Everything you stand for is a lie and all the genuine people are done with it.
He’s not Sad, I’m Sad.
HW in indignant and upset!
Now go plant your tree!
Mr Brown– My parents live in PA right on top of the Marcellus shale. They have well water pulled from an aquifer fed spring that emerges from the ground at the well. Their water is fine. My father actively opposed the pipeline running through the area on conservation grounds. He actually provided legal representation for a group of landowners. The main complaint has been that the wells did not deliver anything close to the revenue the gas companies promised to either the county or the landowners. And the clear cuts are really ugly. But the water, at least there, is fine. And it would have been fine everywhere had the industry been properly regulated from the beginning. It’s all a very complicated story. Not as simple as either side would like to portray it. My father opposed the pipeline and drilling knowing he would use, but also understanding that they might be able to negotiate a few protections. And the suit provided press that put a lens on the companies action’s and reputation. That’s effective real world action.
Any source of energy, even renewables, have an environmental cost to weigh against their benefits. And it’s never an easy calculation. If we were prepared to go all renewable I’d be all for it, but we need another decade or so if we aren’t going to fold in nuclear energy. And so fracking it is.
Imagine how much safer we’d all be if we had advocated for sensible regulation and monitoring of the industry rather than a ban? I know people working on anti=fracking initiatives and they are waiting with baited breath for a spill or contamination event so they can advocate around it. They have no political interest in preventing contamination when they want to ban the industry. It’s crazy fucked up.
A friend’s dad is a farmer up North. He’s also a county commissioner. When the gas people came they treated them with respect. When the anti-fracking people came around, they scolded them and told them they weren’t good stewards of the land and water they had managed for generations. Guess which side won the support of the commissioners?
Many liberals and radicals believe that being anti-fracking is the obviously morally superior position. It’s not that obvious. Morality should get out of the way of being extraordinarily practical in taking every possible measure to reduce our climate impact every day or every year. And the best answer today will not be th best answer tomorrow, but ghg levels are cumulative… They are rising way faster than they are being remediated. We are way far behind the curve. And if we dont act fats, they will be doing some fucked up shit to re-capture CO2 in very unnatural ways. That’s the technology I fear– climate manipulation. I hope I’m wrong, but right now I mostly see ways it could go terribly terribly wrong. My dystopian list is an arms length long. Scares the crap out of me Fracking is a baby compared to that beast.
HW– was Tesla a lizard man too?
Did he take Adrenochrome to develop his brilliant world shifting ideas?
Sure. Treat anyone with an opposing view as a war criminal and get comfortable using the threat of force as a political tool. Prevent all public speech advocating a different viewpoint by shouting and drowning out the speaker. Physically assault anyone wearing a MAG hat. Promote open borders even though 85% of Americans want illegals stopped at the border and refused entry. Demonstrate against those who risk their lives to protect our borders and our cities. Embrace any form of sexual deviancy as normal and treat persons of faith as reprehensible. Promote free college tuition, minimum income for not working, anarchists, and anything else that might destroy our country.
This is what Fascists do. This is why your Party is not in power and won’t be for the forseeable future.
Why should we prioritize people’s opinions over our own actions? Do you drive to work? How many solar panels are on your roof? Is your food from the Co-op (if it is, shame on you, since local food has a higher carbon footprint).
Calling someone a war criminal because they lack the courage to attempt to change the lives of 350 million americans is ridiculous if you don’t take real actions in your own life first. Voting democrat, while generally the right thing to do, doesn’t give you a blank check of moral authority.
Personal behavior change has proven the very very LEAST effective way to reduce overall ghg emissions. All levels of the US Government would be the next least effective… Props to California though. We wasted way too much time guilting everyone, making everyone think a sustainable future is all about sacrifice instead of technological shift. See how EOS etc will take advantage of this misapprehension, and the misperception that we will all lose money in climate action, in order to dissuade us. It all plays into the hands of denialists. What we need to do is pressure government and industry to take meaningful action to reduce their energy consumption and waste. Dont be bought off with organic labels and a tote bag. Ask about their refrigeration and supply chain impact. And dont fucking obsess about your recycling etc. Most people’s waste output is 1% of their overall climate impact. The real issue was how much energy was used to make that thing you tossed. Reduce waste and save money and save emissions. It’s a fundamentally conservative principle.
EOS your statistics are wrong. Most Americans support immigration and believe immigrants serve our country. They dont want open borders but they also dont ‘want illegals stopped at the border and refused entry.’ That’s inaccurate. We need immigration reform.
And Mark’s position was fascistic, but not more so than your ideas about what constitutes acceptable immigration policy. Not more so than the president you support.
PS Free speech can be used to shut down other speech in protest. You assholes have been doing it for years. Turn around is fair play. This is war.
No this isn’t war. But unless you wake up soon and start promoting a more centrist agenda that appeals to people in the heartland of America, you’ll soon find yourselves without any support.
Shutting down free speech in protest is not a Conservative tactic. I haven’t been doing it for years, I’ve never stopped anyone from speaking, and I don’t know of any Conservative who would advocate limiting an individual’s speech. You are projecting.
Admitting that you have a problem is the first step towards recovery.
I have been at counter protests to conservative protests in which our group was smaller and so was shut down. Both sides do it. It’s part of the deal. Didn’t Trump encourage his followers at his rallies to beat up protestors. He did. The idea that conservatives are pro free speech is laughable. Conservative thought leaders didn’t even embrace free speech until this century.
And yes, it’s war. It’s not politics when our government starts severely restricting human rights, consolidated power and relies on hard power at home and abroad. And without a mandate. You all love him. Most Americans still hate him. Most Americans support abortion rights. Doesn’t matter to your side. You’ve games the system to win and compromised our democracy. Resistance time. Yeah, it’s on.
“Did Tesla take Adrenochrome to develop his brilliant world shifting ideas?”
Good question to ask Marina Abromovic. I understand she is quite the expert on both subjects.
I don’t believe you. Please tell us of a single instance where conservative protesters shut down free speech. I think you may be becoming delusional. The vast majority of Americans want some restrictions on abortion and definitely don’t support abortion at full term. We are a Republic, governed by laws. The constitution provides the means to change any law you disagree with. Exercise your freedoms instead of declaring war. War is not necessary or desired.
Yawn yawn yawn
@Jean Henry, to be clear, I’m not saying that gov’t action isn’t needed on the issue. What I’m saying is its ridiculous to consider someone a war criminal for their opinions on an issue, its literally suggesting we have thought crimes.
My broader point is that government regulation is in effect, a way to mandate personal behavior change, which can be a good thing. We regulate against murder, many types of pollution (not enough obviously), and traffic speeds. I just think its abhorrent for Mark to call someone a criminal for not mandating a behavior change in others that he probably hasn’t done himself. The Obama admin shirked most of its environmental responsibilities (requiring fuel efficiency improvements in the next presidents term isn’t what I’d call leadership), the difference now is that the Trump admin is outright hostile.
I think this is just an indication that Mark is losing his shit. There are quite a few outright conspiracy theories on here now (Russia is real, okay sign is not). I used to like coming here for a good perspective on local issues, now its just half baked perspective on Trump. There is plenty of real quality journalism on Trump (the atlantic, vox sometimes, nyt, wapo etc), almost nothing on Ypsi now.
Conservative America is sick. They care about babies only as much as they can profit off of them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/health/world-health-breastfeeding-ecuador-trump.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Other Mark– “What I’m saying is its ridiculous to consider someone a war criminal for their opinions on an issue, its literally suggesting we have thought crimes.”
I think we agree. I get worried about this emphasis on personal behavior change over activism. We should have pressured Obama to do more. Being angry at the GOP for doing what they were elected to do is ridiculous when we failed to make climate action a major issue for our own primary– because Dems themselves rated it as a lower issue of concern. People don’t care enough to even vote for climate action. People in Ann Arbor are upset we are spending money on it. I think it will take a bunch of major cataclysmic events in the US to create enough impetus for Americans to care. Again, it’s big corporations who have made progress on climate action. And they have made progress because they are in the business of forecasting what disruptions are to come and profiting from them. Meanwhile the average Dom thinks they are evil and wags his finger at climate denialism while hauling his cloth tote bag to Whole Foods in his Prius and feeling like that’s enough. It’s not enough. We need major public action. In the streets. A lot of people will probably have to die before we get there. People are fucked up.
I think EOS is telling themselves lies in order not to face up to what a horrible person they are. They want to take away women’s rights. They shout down liberals frequently and yes Trump did encourage his supporters to beat up people at his rallies.
I am glad though that EOS feels that if a majority of the American people support something such as closed borders or better gun control or easy access to first trimester abortions, gay marriage, then that is what the government should do. I am sure that EOS would never ever advocate that the government ever do anything that a majority of the people don’t want.
The WHO breastfeeding boondoggle is a reflection of Trump’s personal views. Breasts are ‘fun bags’ to creeps like him. Any other use is ‘disgusting.’ The president himself has also expressed revulsion at the act of breastfeeding.
“Trump in a 2011 deposition reportedly became upset when an attorney named Elizabeth Beck requested a break to pump breast milk for her three-month-old daughter. The lawyer, Elizabeth Beck, told CNN in 2015 that Trump called her “disgusting.”
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/202039018530144257
I’m trying to understand exactly what US interests are being protected by opposing a breastfeeding support initiative. A woman on the radio said it wasn’t even formula and that US companies are selling products that look like formula but don’t meet dietary requirements abroad and creating a malnutrition epidemic.
I cant find any details in articles about this practice. I understand the issues with the cost of formula, over0dilution and mixing it with contaminated water. It’s her ‘fake formula’ accusation I’m not seeing. I know that WHO standards for healthy formula are not being enforced abroad so maybe that’s what she’s talking about…
All in all, just another reason to hate Nestle.
EOS–Army of God, the Westboro Church, etc etc. You’re the delusional one. How many Chrictian Conservatives have committed acts of terroriam in support of their beliefs? How many leftists? Dont pretend to hold any high ground. You are deep in the mud along with everyone else. And your President makes that very very very clear.
American conservatives give exactly zero shits about what happens to babies after they are born.
They really don’t even give a shit if babies are born, it is just about winning some perceived “war” so they can feel self important about themselves.
The opposition to a simple breast feeding statement is proof that they do not at all care about living beings.
Lynn,
In a Democracy, the majority rules and can enact any law that is approved by the majority. It is essentially mob rule. In a Republic, regardless of the majority opinion, any law enacted has to comply with the written Constitution. I don’t support majority rule in all cases – I support the Constitution.
I’ll ask you the same thing I asked Jean, “When did any conservative group shout down another group that they disagreed with?” Trump did say that his supporters should beat up those persons trying to disrupt his rallies. But to my knowledge, I haven’t heard of anyone being assaulted. Please point me to the criminal charges or lawsuits that resulted from such an occurrence.
I’m for women’s rights. I just don’t agree that they have the right to kill others. And the 14th amendment of the Constitution agrees with that opinion. The fabricated “Right to privacy” does not supersede the enumerated rights in the Constitution. Hopefully that will be changed soon.
“Trump did say that his supporters should beat up those persons trying to disrupt his rallies. But to my knowledge, I haven’t heard of anyone being assaulted. ”
lol, so what? he said it. conservatives endorse violence.
” I just don’t agree that they have the right to kill others. ”
Except when they are on the electric chair or on the business end of a police gun while being black.
lol
Sorry Jean,
Those are fringe groups that are denounced by nearly all conservatives. Not like the liberal protestors that are lauded by the majority of Democrats.
No IL,
I’m opposed to killing babies after they are born as well.
EOS, Oh, I have personally witnessed conservatives shouting down and attempting to harass women at planned parenthood where they were not only trying to suppress the speech of those women but also their right to get health care. I have also seen conservative groups demonstrate outside of veterans funerals in order to protest gay rights. Please don’t act like conservatives are better about allowing others to have a voice because it simply is not true. I would say conservatives are worse.
Here is a video of someone being assaulted at a Trump rally = https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/man-at-trump-rally-charged-with-assault-642430019928
Yes, I understand what it means to have a republic. There is nothing unconstitutional about open borders. I don’t understand your criticism of those who advocate such. I also don’t think women have the right to kill others but they do have a right to make medical decisions about their own bodies even if that decision results in the death of some cells that have the potential to turn into a person. That may change soon because a lot of people in our country don’t value women’s rights. My hope is that an actual loss of rights will result in the type of backlash we have seen recently in Ireland.
Maybe those third party voters will realize that they actually hurt real women with their bullshit voting. Maybe non-voters will realize that people’s rights are on the line for real. Who knows. One thing I know for sure and one thing that gives me great hope is that society is going to progress regardless of who is on the SCOTUS or who is in the WH.
EOS, but you are ok with taking them away from their parents and putting them in cages. You have no moral high ground here.
EOS– Good to hear you support the constitution.
Maybe talk to your President about that. He seems distinctly short on concept. He has for sure been pushing against the edges of what is constitutionally permissible.
The entire conservative platform is based on power and the enforcement of power through violence.
It is impossible to get away from this fact. Police, warfare, zero tolerance sentencing laws to keep black people in check, support for decrease checks on policing, support for devising clever new ways to let police “crack down while avoiding accusations of racial bias,” violence against women, violence against immigrants, guns, righs of property owners to commit violence against the propertyless, holocaust revisionism (well that was no surprise), slavery apologism, celebration of white power through ridiculous monuments, the list is huge.
One cannot be a conservative and “oppose violence” given that it forms the core of that particular political outlook.
“The list is huge”.
IL likes compiling lists of general ideas that support his particular bias but likes to takes naps when someone asks him to provide concrete examples.
The anti-semite says Jews are x,y,z but when it is proven that a particular Jew is not x,y, or z then the anti semite says that particular Jew is not a real Jew….This is how the minds of bigots operate.
“What I’m saying is its ridiculous to consider someone a war criminal for their opinions on an issue, its literally suggesting we have thought crimes.”
With all due respect, we’re discussing facts, not opinions. Whether or not the earth is warming is not an “opinion.” It is a fact. And Republicans blocking action are not merely expressing a view. They are actively stopping intervention that might save our planet in exchange for financial considerations.
“IL likes compiling lists of general ideas that support his particular bias but likes to takes naps when someone asks him to provide concrete examples.'”
lol
Are these not concrete enough for the right wing apologist? i think all of those are pretty concrete, unless you are looking for specific bill numbers and vote counts.
“The anti-semite says Jews are x,y,z but when it is proven that a particular Jew is not x,y, or z then the anti semite says that particular Jew is not a real Jew….This is how the minds of bigots operate.”
Wow, are you a Holocaust denier like EOS?
Fill in your own blanks. Mr. Frosted (White Supremacy) Flakes (Apologist)
“Police, warfare, zero tolerance sentencing laws to keep black people in check, support for decreased checks on policing, support for devising clever new ways to let police “crack down while avoiding accusations of racial bias,” violence against women, violence against immigrants, guns, rights of property owners to commit violence against the propertyless, holocaust revisionism (well that was no surprise), slavery apologism, celebration of white power through ridiculous monuments, the list is huge”
Are these not conservative positions? Would you suggest that the opposite is true?
The Flakes is in denial that his political viewpoint (does he have one outside of some wish washy middle of the road emptiness?) is, in fact, repulsive.
“Are you a holocaust denier”.
Huh?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2018/06/gop-candidate-normalizes-pedophilia-because-the-bible/
Mark–“With all due respect, we’re discussing facts, not opinions. Whether or not the earth is warming is not an “opinion.” It is a fact. And Republicans blocking action are not merely expressing a view. They are actively stopping intervention that might save our planet in exchange for financial considerations.”
Being counter factual is not against the law. And if it was what would happen to your friends who believe that GMO’s are evil, that you can preserve affordable housing by restricting growth or that vaccines cause autism? Should they be held on war crimes as well.
Your statement was patently fascistic, and you should walk it back.
You could not play more strongly to both conservative and radical perceptions of liberal smugness and bubble-think than to insist that ignorance is a crime. And to assume that educated liberals display no ignorance…
Do you guys actually think that Mark was really suggesting that we treat climate denial as a crime? I thought he was engaging in a bit of dramatic hyperbole in order to emphasize the seriousness of climate denialism rather than actually advocating that we make it a real crime.
@M, you’re logical fallacy per word ratio is impressive.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
To say that Republicans blocking action on climate change are just expressing an “opinion” is nonsense. They know the science. It’s not that they’re confused by it. They are lying to the American people because it’s in their best personal interests to do so. And, yes, I think they should be held accountable. And, in another 10 years, I suspect a great many people will agree with me. (When the oceans rise and the crops start to burn in the fields, I suspect people will begin to appreciate the magnitude of the situation.) But, yes, to Lynne’s point, it’s hyperbole at this point, at least on my part. I’m not suggesting that they be rounded up and thrown into the gulag. I do, however, think that they should know that there’s a very real threat they may one day find themselves held accountable for what they’ve done.
And, again, I’m not talking about the fools who get there “information” from Fox News. I’m talking about a very small number of elected officials, all of whom have access to the scientific data. And, for what it’s worth, I’d say the same thing, to use your example, if our elected officials, while taking money from the anti-vaccinatin lobby, were passing anti-vaccination laws that were placing the very future of humanity in danger.
Please share with us the conclusive scientific proof that climate change will cause irreversible change to earth’s inhabitants. And while you’re at it, please include the scientific proof that anything man can do will make a difference. I seem to recall Al Gore’s “scientific evidence” that proved California and Florida would be underwater by now and the polar ice caps gone.
Last year, after two big hurricanes, the first in over 10 years, Mark claimed that was proof of Global warming. A couple hot weeks and that proves to Mark that the earth is becoming uninhabitable and the very future of humanity is in danger. Please stop the fear mongering and show us the irrefutable scientific proof. Try using your blog to educate and not intimidate.
@eos
Alt righters do this thing where they say prove this thing right here or right now or clearly you’re wrong, and it’s really annoying. No climate experts on here that could lay out the argument in a way that would satisfy you. Please stop
Someday two nice men from the government will pull up in front of Mark’s house, driving a black Tesla, and they will ask one question: “Have you eaten your dog and children yet”?
At that moment Mark will know he has finally won the “war”.
Yay
@ Lynne,
People in Ann Arbor have successfully convinced over a dozen women who had appointments at Planned Parenthood to change their minds and keep their babies. This doesn’t happen when people shout or harass women. The people who stand outside PP are 100 yards away from the door and about 300 yards away from the parking lot. They are prevented from approaching any woman or vehicle.
The women have to cross over a circular drive to approach those who stand outside in all kinds of weather and pray for them and their babies. When they do they are offered food, housing, medical care, and baby items. There are families in Ann Arbor who will adopt any child that a woman doesn’t feel they can care for adequately. If you have any doubts, go to Planned Parenthood on a Thursday morning and talk with these people. They don’t yell or harass and they have undergone extensive training so that they can offer support in a non-judgemental way. It’s on Professional Drive off Platt near Washtenaw.
@ Another Mark.
If it is settled science, it would be easy to post a link to multiple studies. In reality, there are no conclusive scientific studies to point to, only the opinions of politically biased individuals. And computer models that have failed to predict both near and far future events. What is factual is that climate fluctuates and has since the beginning of time.
I beleive there will be negative consequences to climate change. I also beleive the climate is changing in large part due to human activity. There is a difference between 1) believing something to be true that happens to be true and 2) knowing something to be a fact. EOS is pointing toward that distinction I think. Even though I beleive Mark is right, he does not know anything about climate change as fact. (Sorry.) He takes the info he is receiving as fact and that is a a big difference when someone, like Mark, is also throwing around the idea of people being guilty of “war crimes” just because those people don’t take the same info as fact. Isn’t that right IL?
Also, I really do wish he would eat his dog already. It would mostly makeup for this horrible “war crime” idea he has presented and tried to defend.
I assumed Mark meant that after we win the 2nd civil war that the USA should enact a Constitutionally legit law specifying treasonous climate deniers war criminals. Nothing necessarily fascistic about it. Quite the exact opposite. Preserving the Union and the Earth? What’s not to get behind?
“Try using your blog to educate and not intimidate.”
This is the smartest message on this blog since “take a Prozac and clean the shit out of your ears”. Of course, that message was not appreciated much either, as we had an English professors in the comments section, ready and willing to make fun of that guys grammar….
You guys are going to have to figure out a way to let go of the hate.
@EOS
https://crudata.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/
https://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/bams-sotc/2009/bams-sotc-2009-chapter2-global-climate-lo-rez.pdf
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/
http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/report/WG1AR5_Chapter02_FINAL.pdf
http://www.climatechange2013.org/images/report/WG1AR5_Chapter13_FINAL.pdf
Here’s a few. Your turn, I’ll read any 2 reports you send, or send more and make a suggestion on where to start
“Mr. Frosted (white supremacy) Flakes (apologist)”
Attacking the man is not fallacious enough for IL? Why does he feel a need to attack the man’s name, by using word associations,as if the man and the man’s name are one and the same as the words associated with the man’s name? Holy fuck!!!!!I challenge anyone to find another person displaying reasoning this backward and empty anywhere on the internet….
EOS, *I* was harassed and called a whore here in Ann Arbor when I was going to PP for the birth control pills I needed to control a very painful condition. Birth control pills that my insurance did not cover. If the folks protesting these days at PP are better behaved, more power to them. I am pro-choice and have no problem with people who would influence a choice with support and kindness. However that has not usually been my experience with those who are anti-choice.
I also recall those sick anti abortion activists who paraded around town with giant pictures of dismembered late term abortions. Thy also were vocal and rude and shouted people down to a degree that I did not feel sorry for them when they got a taste of their own medicine in the form of a counter protest.Those people were total scumbags like ,ost who would deny a woman the right to make her own medical decisions in privacy.
Like I said. You have mo moral high ground here
Any pregnant woman who walks into any planned parenthood will get support for whatever decision she makes. She can get and abortion or access to the same exact kind of support the protestors supposedly offer. The protestors offer nothing but prayers and harassment. It never occurs to them that their prayers may not be wanted.
I’m wondering what happens if a pregnant woman walks up to them, listens to their counsel and then turns around and walks into the clinic? Are they still so kind and understanding?
At any rate they offer no additional support to what PP and they affiliates already offer. Except for those prayers. Fuck them.
We’ve hear from EOS about how she views women who have children they can not support. We’ve heard ho much support for children at risk and children period she is interested in supporting once they are out of the womb. I know other pro-life people that back up their rhetoric by focusing on providing support for living children not preventing abortions. I have no issue with them.
“When did any conservative group shout down another group that they disagreed with?”
Do you read your own president’s tweets? Do you listen to the words he utters? Is it possible you fail to notice Trump repeatedly calls for punishing reporters and political opponents who are critical of him? Have you not noticed he has more than once threatened government action to damage Amazon’s business, because he doesn’t like the tone of articles published in the Washington Post? Do you not remember Trump successfully intimidating NFL owners to shut down their players taking a knee in protest? Seems like a lot of interference with private expression of opinion, by the highest elected American public official, who many on the right somehow deem “conservative”. Now, would you be able to recognize a tyrant from his own words and actions? A rhetorical question, and I only ask because it puzzles me why you seem to have such an enormous blind spot when it comes to reading Trump. Ok, just in case you’re incapable of remembering anything negative about Trump, allow me to remind you “free speech zones” were invented by George Bush the Lesser, to suppress protests about the Iraq War.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/witness-the-trauma-of-abortion-clinic-harassment-in-virtual-reality_us_59258870e4b0650cc020a068
Jean Henry, the idea that you’re at war is laughable. Is it a war of words? For hearts and minds? There’s nothing to win here. Point me to the right wing blogs where you do battle (I hope using a pseudonym, you don’t have to tell me what it is, I’ll figure it out and ask for hints if I can’t) and I may reconsider.
Those persons outside of PP offer housing, food, free medical care, and supplies for the newborn. I don’t know of any PP clinic that offers such services.
Washtenaw County budget provides taxpayer funds to provide prenatal care for lower income minority women at Planned Parenthood. It’s called the Healthy Baby Initiative and supposedly provides prenatal support to enable a population deemed at risk to give birth to babies with higher weights. Low birth weights can lead to a number of complications in the newborn. Of the women enrolled in the program to receive their prenatal care at PP, only 20% actually end up giving birth. The babies born to these women are of near average birth rates so the program is deemed a success and the program continues to be funded year after year with taxpayer dollars. In our enlightened Progressive community, nearly 80% of the minority mothers referred to PP for prenatal care end up getting abortions. These are women who wanted to keep their babies and sought prenatal care initially. PP started as a eugenics program and continues to this day.
Birth weights
“Those persons outside of PP offer housing, food, free medical care, and supplies for the newborn. I don’t know of any PP clinic that offers such services” PP offers connection to non-denominational affiliates who offer such services, EOS
Your asshole friends offer nothing but shame and harassment.
“In our enlightened Progressive community, nearly 80% of the minority mothers referred to PP for prenatal care end up getting abortions. These are women who wanted to keep their babies and sought prenatal care initially. PP started as a eugenics program and continues to this day.”
—This is a total lie. Anyone who gets a positive pregnancy test at a medical clinic or hospital is ‘referred for prenatal care.’ They then have their choice of prenatal providers, among them PP. Those that choose an abortion over keeping the baby *in advance* will have no choice however but to go to PP. Your bullshit data relies on a group selection of women, most of whom have already chosen abortion. They are not in any way being convinced to do anything by PP other than care for themselves, which is more than can be said of your friends.
Nice try EOS.
Any political position that relies on such deception and lies to make it’s point is hopelessly corrupted.
Jean,
This is a particular program offered by the county and paid for using taxpayer funds. It is only administered at Planned Parenthood. It’s a matter of public record and can be seen in the budget for the county for the past 20 years or more. The stated outcome of the program is to increase the birth weights of the children whose mothers have opted to carry them full term. The prenatal care at PP is free for the participants of the program. Their subsequent abortions are paid from private donations.
People don’t stand outside PP to shame and harass. That would serve no purpose other than to make women less likely to listen to them. It would be counter-productive. They have a sincere desire to see less babies killed and they provide real choices for pregnant women.
“Any political position that relies on such deception and lies to make it’s point is hopelessly corrupted.” If the shoe fits…
“People don’t stand outside PP to shame and harass. ”
Oh bullshit.
It makes no logical sense to do so. Oh wait, you guys don’t believe in logic.
EOS– You failed to address my criticism of your data.
Of the group from which your 80% figure was pulled, most go to PP intending to have an abortion not access prenatal care. They do have other options for obtaining prenatal care. And again, anyone with a positive pregnancy test at any facility is referred to get ‘prenatal care’ no matter their intentions to carry the fetus to term or not. This is mandated by MI state law
And so your group selection from which the 80% was derived includes those who have already chosen abortion.
It’s a fallacious figure. PP has no interest in convincing women to choose abortion. Their commitment is to protect women’s right to choose, not sway them one way or another.
I have been to abortion counseling at PP twice for my two abortions. No one tried to convince me to do anything other than lie down and rest afterwards instead of getting home and getting on with my life. I had a lot of questions before the first one. All were answered without bias or suggestion. In each case the experience was finally one of great relief. And I can guarantee I love my two actual children no less than anyone else. And a quarter of all women have had similar experiences. Go ahead and try to tell us and our partners how we should manage our bodies and lives. There will be a riot. It will bury you assholes forever.
And I’m telling you now not to pray for me or my unborn fetuses. And if you don’t respect my wishes in that regard that tells me exactly how much you care about women’s agency and right to choose.
“It makes no logical sense to do so. Oh wait, you guys don’t believe in logic.”
Says the Holocaust denier, the person who thinks that the world is 4,000 years old and the believer in the Curse of Ham.
What’s next on EOS’ plate?
HIV denial?
Lizard people adrenochrome conspiracies?
If she works hard enough, she can believe anything as long as it keeps women from getting abortions and keeps black people in jail and off public transportation.
Jean,
Your assumptions are wrong. They are recruited by the county health professionals and offered free prenatal care. Once they are enrolled in the program, for prenatal care, they change their minds. The program is only open to women of minority status. These are not women who go to PP for any other services. They are directed to PP for their free prenatal care. Why wouldn’t the county want to administer this program at a major hospital, where the women would build a relationship with their obstetrician?
A fetus may be located inside of a person’s body, but is not a part of that body. Half the time it is a different sex. Your rights stop at the point they endanger another.
Holocaust denial.
Wow. A new low.
“A fetus may be located inside of a person’s body, but is not a part of that body. Half the time it is a different sex. Your rights stop at the point they endanger another.”
lol
EOS does not see women as people when they are pregnant.
Perhaps the Jews weren’t people anymore when they were put in Dachau.
The idea that life begins at the time of sex differentiation is a new one. Very interesting.
So if the fetus is my gender, it’s not a person, but if it’s a dude it is one?
Just following the logic.
I have been assured by people who work at the local PP as well as Corner Health services that my assessment of the prenatal care data you put forward is accurate.
Please counter with the account of a local women’s reproductive health care provider.Or a patient. Many thanks.
Life begins at conception, when the complete genome is present. Your sources are either uniformed or unwilling to state the truth.
Holocaust denial.
Unbelievable.
EOS hates women and Jews unless they are in the womb.
Re: your rights stop at the point where they endanger another
I agree! This is one big reason why I don’t believe a fetus has rights. Pregnancy endangers women and they have every right not to take on such risks. Abortions are much less of a risk.
“Life begins at conception, when the complete genome is present. Your sources are either uniformed or unwilling to state the truth.”
Who cares? If I have instestinal worms, I want that shit out of my body. Same as if I have some parasitic twin in my gut. I am the landlord, I’ll evict whoever I like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
So I can’t cut this shit out.
Wow. Thanks for all the freedom.
So here is a statement from someone who works at PP.
“Ask her to show you the resources. PP of Michigan has one prenatal program and that is in Ann Arbor. The patients are seen by UofM nurse midwives. They are not seen for free. No one sees pregnant women for free because they are all eligible for some type of insurance. The program is 26% minority women and all women who start in the prenatal program have plans to continue pregnancy. They see the same nurse midwife each week who has been a midwife for over 30 years with the U. “
I don’t know what program you are referring to that is funded by the county but it is not situated at Planned Parenthood.
My friend added the following:
“And if people outside buildings aren’t harassing I’m sure she won’t mind when my queer knitting group shows up to recruit [at your church] every Sunday.
EOS, You are so woefully misinformed. PP runs a small, delightful, and successful prenatal program. Everybody that enters it has already decided to parent and their visits look identical to every other new OB visit with the nurse midwives at UofM. I’m not interested in arguing with your fake facts but I feel like it is important for other people to know what is real and what is anti choice tin foil hat rhetoric. Oh, and I’m coming for your church with my queer book club. Trust, we are very peaceful, I’m sure you won’t mind at all.
I have looked for this healthy babies program to which you refer EOS. I can’t find any information on it. Please provide documentation.
Everybody is welcome at my church. We are all sinners in need of a Savior.
Jean and Lee,
It’s more difficult to find the funding in the county budget. They’ve hidden the line item in recent years. I have an old grant application that describes the program and here are some relevant excerpts. I exaggerated – 73% of the women don’t have babies.
Agency name
Planned Parenthood Mid-Michigan Alliance
Project name
Comprehensive Prenatal Care
Funder and fund
Washtenaw County – Children’s Well-Being
Grant summary
Amount Requested
$100,000.00
Total Project Cost
$190,120.00
Purpose of Grant (one sentence)
The purpose of our program is to provide individualized prenatal medical care and support services to low-income women in Washtenaw County in order to reduce the incidence of low birthweight babies and infant mortality.
Grant Summary
The Planned Parenthood Comprehensive Prenatal Program provides individualized prenatal medical care to low-income women using Certified Nurse Midwives (CNM). Our customers are also eligible for Maternal Support Services (MSS) which uses a team of professionals, including a nurse, social worker and nutritionist to support our patients with other issues that can affect the outcome of their pregnancy. Planned Parenthood contracts with the University of Michigan Medical Center (UMMC) for these services. These health care services plus assistance in signing up for Medicaid are all done in a “one stop shopping model” at our Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti health center.
Our program goals are to: 1) provide early and adequate prenatal care, 2) reduce
the number of low birthweight babies and 3) reduce infant mortality. Inadequate prenatal care is defined as no care or care that begins in the third trimester or totals fewer than 5 visits. These goals are interconnected; inadequate prenatal care is linked to low birthweight which is the precursor to nearly 70% of infant mortality. Our program goals are identified as goals in the County’s Community Needs Assessment as well as the Health Improvement Plan.
Previous support from this funder
Describe any financial support you have received from this funder in the last 3 years.
We have received Children’s Well Being funding for 10 years.
Target population
Describe the people you will serve, by age, geographic area, socio-economics, organzation, and gender (as applicable).
Our target population is low-income women in Washtenaw County, particularly African-Americans and other women of color who have no health insurance or current health care provider. These women are more likely to receive inadequate prenatal care which is defined as no care or care that begins in the third trimester or totals fewer than 5 visits. As a result they are at high risk for delivering low birthweight babies which is a factor in 70% of deaths of infants. African-American women in Washtenaw County are more than twice as likely as white women to give birth to low-birth weight babies.
In the last two years, more than 95% of our customers entered without commercial insurance and 94% are at or below 185% of the federal poverty level which makes them eligible for Medicaid while they are pregnant. They are classified as very low-income on the HUD Area Median Income scale. Our customers are women of childbearing age; and 72% are between the ages of 20 and 29. Nearly half, 46% are women of color, which is more than twice the percentage of women of color of childbearing age in Washtenaw County. Twenty-two percent of our customers are women who are monolingual Spanish speakers, a trend that began five years ago. Our program has become known as a safe and caring place for women who speak only Spanish. Hispanic women in Washtenaw County have the second highest percentage of inadequate prenatal care and those who also have a language barrier are the least likely to receive adequate care.
Performance Target
In the calendar year 2008, Planned Parenthood will provide comprehensive prenatal care to 450 women. 125 will deliver health babies as evidenced by; 113 women will receive adequate prenatal care, 88 will breastfeed their baby and less than 7 of the babies will be born at low birth weight.
Bidder’s history
Describe previous experience in the same or similar service. Describe previous successes and factors leading to success. Describe lessons learned from positive or negative experiences. Emphasize how the bidder’s pervious history supports future success with this project.
Our success in meeting our goals over the last ten years is evidence that Planned Parenthood has the capacity to continue to meet performance targets and to have a positive impact. Our success is in the numbers; Over 1,200 babies have been born to women using the Planned Parenthood Prenatal Program. Last year alone, 99% of our patients received adequate prenatal care, less than 1% of our babies were born at low birth weight, (compared to 8.4% County wide). In addition 70% of the babies born in the program were breastfed compared to the national average of 59%. Last year our program surpassed the goal in each performance target area. Our program has grown steadily over the last ten years and is now at capacity for the number of women that can be served with the current staffing levels.
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Note: 450 pregnant women each year are enrolled and over a ten year period 120 babies are born each year. Less than 27% have babies. 73% leave the program without an infant.
Back in 2008, it had been funded for 10 years by the County at $100,000.00 per year. $1 million dollars for a program whose stated goal was a 27% birth rate for pregnant minority women.
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Sounds like your information is 10 years old, EOS. When I have time I’ll research the rest of your claims about this program. You’ll be hearing back from us.
PS please let us know the name of your church so we can show up to support your fellow parishioners as they recover from Religion
Think about all those Jewish babies that EOS fails to recognize as she denies the true extent of the Holocaust.
She doesn’t care about those lives, even to the extent of simply recognizing that they died, so we can assume that she picks and chooses what lives to care about based on who she considers human or not.
Like most modern era “conservatives,” EOS does not care about life. She only cares about winning a pointless political war.
Disgusting.
MarkMaynard.com needs to host a “Draw EOS” competition.
I’m unclear what in the grant proposal you find problematic. The goal is fewer low birth weight babies, more breastfed babies, and women getting prenatal care. Where is your objection?
Okay. I see where you are getting confused. You don’t read grants for a living I’m guessing. The target performance offers a total number of women who will receive care and then another total target for women who will receive best practice care. That doesn’t mean the others will abort. It means that in high-risk populations it is hard to get to adequate prenatal care and low birth weight numbers are high. Saying that all 450 women will have adequate prenatal care and no low birth weight babies is not a realistic grant target and would never get funded because it isn’t feasible. I find it a very strange amount that amount of mental gymnastics you did to get from those numbers to abortions but some people see PP and can’t take their blinders off. Case in point EOS.
Still waiting for that Church name.
Patience, Lee. EOS walks the talk. If you are hungry, he will share his bread with you. If you are poor and homeless he will welcome you into his home. He will certainly invite you to his church. You can count on it.
I’m not confused.
The actual numbers in the 10 years that they reported on is that 4,500 women were enrolled and 1200 babies were born. (120 births each year for the 450 pregnant woman who they provide prenatal care for each year) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OTHER 3300 PREGNANT WOMEN???? They also reported that 99% of the women in their program received adequate prenatal care. So nearly 4500 pregnant women received adequate prenatal care, but 3300 of them failed to give birth.
They don’t explicitly state that the 330 women each year who they claim received adequate prenatal care but didn’t give birth have had abortions. Is it possible that more than 73% of the pregnant women receiving adequate prenatal care had miscarriages?
** 4500 pregnant women that resulted in 1200 live births and 99% of the women received adequate prenatal care. **
Of the 1200 live births, only 12 babies were of low birth weight or less than 1%. They considered this a successful program and received county funds for at least 10 years that I can document.
In order to prevent poor women of color from having babies with a low birth weight they somehow prevented 73% of the women from giving birth.
The Planned Parenthood Comprehensive Prenatal Program – It’s a sick racket and needs to be stopped. “Comprehensive” in reference to women’s health is code for abortion services.
EOS– I suggest you re-read Lee’s explanation of the numbers.
We know what you do with statistics and data, searching for validation for your ideas. This is a pretty clear example. We can all see that you are:
-extrapolating abortions where there are none
-using predictive grant-qualifying data for actual data
-inflated the numbers of Black women in the program
-presented 10 year old data as current
-used 1 years documentation and expanded it to make up numbers for 10 years of work
All to ‘prove’ that a eugenics program is underway in our county via Planned Parenthood.
If your data is sound, why have you not shared it with the press? Why are they not covering what would amount to a massive nationwide scandal if more widely revealed? Why is this story only shared among those who share your political beliefs?
Hyborian Warlord has the same problems with his ‘data,’ but he believes that the true story will come to light. Maybe after 20 years of not having his narrative confirmed by the press, like you, he’ll have less faith in the press than in his narrative– like you it seems.
If your political point is sound, you don’t need to exaggerate or distort the information to make it and you should be able to bear critique. Every political group falls into these narrative bias and hyperbolic distortion tendencies. It’s unusual; though to see such willful mischaracterization of primary source data as you have attempted here. Takes balls EOS.
Everyone can see your argument has no basis in the information you provided.
Just like your assurances of a loving and accepting church. We’d like to test that assertion. Please provide the church name and we will fill its halls.
FWIW, I did not understand Lee’s explanation. Is Lee saying 450 pregnant women enter the program every year, but a high percentage of those 450 pregnant women do not follow all of the steps, so the babies that have mothers who do not follow all of the steps are not counted?
Jean,
Lee wrote that it is hard to get adequate prenatal care in this high risk population. But they report that 99% receive adequate prenatal care. I’m not unfamiliar – I do read grants for a living.
The press is well aware that Planned Parenthood targets minority women for their abortion services.
And I didn’t exaggerate or distort the information. I copied and pasted from Planned Parenthood’s grant application. It’s exactly as they had written it.
I don’t know of a single church that would not welcome anyone who showed up at their doors to attend a service. It would be great if large numbers of persons attended. I would encourage you to do so. No one will be judgemental, lightening will not strike, and the walls will remain standing.
“-using predictive grant-qualifying data for actual data”
No. I used the self-reported 10 year history of outcomes of the program.
“-presented 10 year old data as current”
No, I presented 10 year old data as being 10 years old. Maybe Lee can provide the data from the last 10 years.
A chunk the size of lower Manhattan fell off of Helheim’s glacier in Greenland
https://www.wired.com/story/a-time-lapsed-glacier-collapse-is-the-saddest-science-lesson
OK, Sad, I’m all for joining forces to do some environmental activism. What do you propose?
Sunrise is a group active nationally. They are youth-led. They are planning a school walkout for the fall. There are also plans for a massive Earth Day teach-in. I suggest you join them. If you live in Ann Arbor, there is a need to keep pressure on council to adequately fund the climate action plan and sustainability department. Not sure what’s up in Ypsi but it’s worth an ask. No need to do this together. Organizations exist. You as an individual can do more than gripe on MM.
Meant to say Sunrise is a national org with an active local division: https://www.sunrisemovement.org/?fbclid=IwAR3PLBHwSY-R8dgs7GU0bRgFVdQk3M_zVcSGNxUG_4I0mdCrSS1TkitqQfU
Aloha, Sunrise and others are organizing an international general strike on September 20th.
https://actionnetwork.org/event_campaigns/us-climate-strikes?fbclid=IwAR24exVhFCmSbtapbK74eqlNoN7r6FaDcLnxo2sXWtHJUhPoBYFWwEPtawA
Tulsi’s Off Fossil Fuels Act, is an actionable program to eliminate US use of fossil fuels by 2035. Tulsi is the only candidate who is talking about the new agricultural revolution–Regenerative Agricultural practices– that is necessary to address the huge greenhouse gas contributor that is our current fossil fuel driven agriculture. Speaking before a crowd of Iowa farmers over the weekend her Regenerative Agriculture proposals, that also would strengthen family farms, was very warmly received.
I wonder if it will be enough to get Sad out of the house.