In the months after the 2016 election, as you may recall, it was reported that the Russians had attempted to breach the election systems of 21 U.S. states. Well, thanks to an NBC News report, we now know that a handful of these state systems were successfully penetrated. Furthermore, according to Jeanette Manfra, the head of cybersecurity at the Department of Homeland Security, who was interviewed by NBC for the piece, we know what they were after. According to Manfra, the Russians were “scanning and probing of voter registration databases.” Here, in case you missed it, is the NBC report.
In an exclusive interview with @CynthiaMcFadden, Jeanette Manfra, the head of cybersecurity at the Department of Homeland Security, says that 21 states were targeted during the 2016 election.
MORE: https://t.co/zM3WjZgbtI pic.twitter.com/p34OjYeXcl
— NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt (@NBCNightlyNews) February 8, 2018
While I’m not aware of any evidence that the Russians actually altered voter registration rolls in the run-up to the 2016 election, it’s not too difficult to imagine what they may have been up to. It would, after all, be a lot easier to influence the outcome of an election by keeping people from voting in the first place, than by allowing them to vote, and then changing their votes. Just think about it…
If you could wipe 5% of the voters from the registration rolls in a swing state district that, thanks to gerrymandering, you know is likely to vote 85% Democratic, it could have a huge impact on an election. Now, imagine that you didn’t just remove voters randomly, but selected black women, who, in the last election, voted for Clinton by a 9-to-1 margin. And imagine that you did that in not one polling place, but several. Sure, some people, if they show up at their polling place, and find that they aren’t registered, will demand to fill out a provisional ballot. But many will just leave. And the ones that stay will tie up the line, making the wait longer, discouraging other voters from participating.
The 2016 presidential election in Michigan, to give you an example, was won by just 10,704 votes. And that’s with about 5 million votes cast… How difficult would it be to flip a state like Michigan, if you knew which precincts to focus on, and who to purge?
Again, we don’t know that this happened in 2016, but it’s worth exploring the possibility that, with the voter data that companies like Cambridge Analytica have access to, one really could wage a sophisticated and effected voter suppression campaign capable of changing the outcome of an election, assuming, of course, that they had the financial and technical resources to pull it off. And, even if the Russians didn’t do it this time, there’s always 2018. And we know they’re going try again. Both Trump’s CIA Director and Secretary of State have told us as much.
Mike Pompeo, the Director of the CIA, just recently warned that Russia “will target US mid-term elections.” And, yesterday, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson warned not only that it would happen, but that the U.S. is not “better prepared” to meet the threat.
In spite of this, though, the Trump White House has failed to act on the threat, refusing even to implement the sanctions against Russia that were passed by Congress.
It may not be enough, but it seems as though pressure is beginning to build. Jut today, Senator Dianne Feinstein today called for public hearings in the Senate Judiciary Committee on Russian election meddling, former president George W. Bush warned about the threat of Russian election meddling, and Senator Chris Murphy suggested that Congress could implement sanctions on their own, over Trump’s objections.
Here’s the big takeaway from all of this… Even if we change back to paper ballots, ensuring that electronic voting machines can’t be hacked to change our votes, there are other, more effective ways to change the outcome of an election. Through the use of propaganda and targeted voter suppression, elections can be stolen. And, as of right now, there’s no government-wide response to this very real threat. Trump’s appointed CIA Director and Secretary of State are warning that it will happen, and that we’re not ready, but no efforts are being made to stop what is clearly coming. Congress, almost unanimously, voted to impose sanctions, punishing Russia for what they’ve done thus far, and warning them not to go forward, but the Trump administration has refused to act. And one wonders how much more we can take. Once people lose faith in the integrity of their democratic elections, what is there left?
Please, if you haven’t already, call your elected officials, or go and see them in person, and demand that they take this threat seriously, with or without the support of the Trump administration.
118 Comments
We are so completely fucked.
I consider the dow correction as necessary. We’ll see how far it goes. If it is in fact dropping because wages are rising, that is a correction on extreme economic inequality. In the long run it will be good for the overall economy, but stock market earnings will not continue to rise at the quarterly rates that have become standard. The expectation of constant quarterly profits creating a constant extraction of profits rather than generative growth. It was limiting to business investments in wages and new technologies and longer term goals like sustainability. What concerns me is the growth in unregulated currencies, and worse, their movement into the banking system to fill derivatives with cryptocurrencies. “Most banks steer clear of cryptocurrencies, worried about money laundering or terrorism finance because of the inherent anonymity of the assets. Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, said anyone caught trading bitcoin at the US bank would be fired. US and UK banks have blocked cryptocurrency purchases on credit cards, while some British lenders are refusing mortgages to clients with deposits funded by selling cryptocurrencies.
“Most banks steer clear of cryptocurrencies, worried about money laundering or terrorism finance because of the inherent anonymity of the assets. Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, said anyone caught trading bitcoin at the US bank would be fired. US and UK banks have blocked cryptocurrency purchases on credit cards, while some British lenders are refusing mortgages to clients with deposits funded by selling cryptocurrencies.
But there are signs that greed has weakened their [financial institutions’] resolve and some have begun to form tentative linkages”, citing the “derivative products pertaining to virtual currencies” that have recently been launched.”
https://www.ft.com/content/038d92d6-0d32-11e8-8eb7-42f857ea9f09
oops. posted on wrong thread.
Go about your business.
My worry is expansive and without boundary these days.
I don’t like quoting Republican Joe Walsh, but it’s good to know that some in the GOP see the threat as serious.
Joe Walsh: If Russia meddled in an election that helped elect a Democrat, Republicans would be screaming in rage. Those same Republicans should be outraged that Russia helped elect a Republican. Why? Because a foreign entity meddling in our elections is just plain wrong. Period.
Hm.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/russians-penetrated-us-voter-systems-nbc-citing-top-us-official.html
Russians targeted 21 states’ voter registration rolls during the 2016 presidential election.
Of those, a “small number” were successfully penetrated, according to a Homeland Security Department official tasked with protecting elections from hacking threats.
U.S. officials have said there is no evidence that any states’ voter registration rolls were tampered with.
Meanwhile the House Intelligence Committee has erected a border wall between the Dem and GOP aides, lest they share the information and analysis of Russian interference that they are supposed to be sharing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/us/politics/house-intelligence-committee-russia-nunes.htm
Hell of a time to go entirely dysfunctional. There was a time when the threat of a foreign incursion on our Democracy would unify otherwise partisan politicians. No longer.
If we don’t fix this soon, we are indeed fucked.
Whatever you do, don’t think about out of whack ballot box counts in Detroit. It could be scary!
Ah, now we are getting the voter suppression box checked off.
The Mr. Warlord now has a problem with black people voting.
If you are concerned about wrong counts in Detroit you are against black people voting. That makes a lot of sense there.
sigh… https://www.snopes.com/more-votes-than-voters-in-detroit/
I know, I know. You don’t like Snopes, HW. They are bought in propagandists trying to cover up the real truth. And that one time, they were wrong and admitted it. We know…
Deep Durple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCnebZnysmI
Their argument is a fallacy, Jean. Snopes assumes the vote is fair, an assumption which is called into question by the wrong tallies themselves.
“So the discrepancy, while newsworthy, had nothing to do with the number of votes tallied exceeding the number of registered voters (an impossibility in a fair election), but rather the number of voters recorded by poll workers exceeding the number of voters recorded by voting machines (a circumstance that suggested errors on the part of machines and/or human workers rather than fraud).”
Maybe the GOP lead MI BOE report will suffice.https://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Combined_Detroit_Audit_Exec_summary_551188_7.pdf
Detroit voting is a hot mess. Understaffed, under-trained with bad machines. Typical Detroit troubles. You could assert voter fraud, but they aren’t that organized. I supported Garland Gillchrist for City Clerk in Detroit. He lost by a hair but ran a good race. He had a lot to say on the matter. Good guy.
It directly contradicts news reports they cite themselves.
“County records prepared at the request of The Detroit News after ballot irregularities were discovered revealed that 37 percent of Detroit precincts registered MORE VOTES THAN VOTERS during the election.”
Direct contradicted here:
“but rather the number of voters recorded by poll workers exceeding the number of voters recorded by voting machines “
Where’s Waldo?
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-02-09/has-anyone-seen-the-president
If certain poll workers ran ballots multiple times that would explain it. No way to call it fair unless you have evidence to support a good explanation.
HW– Read the BOE report and THEN draw your conclusions.
PS I didn’t call it fair at all. I said disorganized is not fraud. It’s the opposite of fraud. Both lead to unfair results.
He’s probably in a DUMB, jay see. For real. There are people who want him dead to try to stop what is coming. Castling
The Snopes article assumes the election was fair. It’s a fallacy.
Again, HW responds without reading the link.
HW is expert at zero sum games.
When Trump is not on the golf course, or posing for pictures, performing as the ‘great leader’, he is hiding in his room with hamburgers, his phone and fox news for endless hours of executive time.
Maybe “disorganization” is a good cover for fraud. Think.
The snopes article concludes that the results were skewed but equally so in either direction. How can you claim any possibility of fraud if their is no benefit to any one candidate?
Unfair is any election that deprives citizens of a vote. Not the same as fraud.
“So while elections officials in Detroit confirmed that voting irregularities involving excess vote counts existed, that issue was about inaccurate head counts taken by poll workers rather than fraud. The discrepancies mostly involved a handful of votes per precinct, and neither candidate was believed to have been favored by the errors.”
Think. Indeed.
PS re Trump: Obama never hid despite constant threats to his life.
On top of being petty, corrupt and dangerous, Trump is a coward.
And incredibly lazy.
Maybe we should compare Trumps golf outings and vacation time to Obama’s like we compared their Executive Orders.
Trump attacked Obama for all. Trump is worse by every measure.
Trump thinks people are being mean to him.
Boo hoo.
I thought the most interesting thing in the article was the portion with Mr. Bannon.
“The snopes article concludes”
Their premise is a fallacy (“It’s a fair election!”) so what is the conclusion worth?
The investigation is hardly convincing. Did they identify and conduct interviews with the workers who mishandled ballots? How do they know it was due to incompetence? Are there particular workers who mishandled ballots more than others? Lot of questions unanswered.
JCP2– I just read that bit. I find Bannon a very useful source of commentary on Trump. He seems to be honest to his perspective, not just spinning unadulterated Trump partisanship, which is more than most defenders, like HW, offer. The entire long piece is about how no one knows shit about what Trump is thinking. Bannon is the only one who comes close. No that he is cut off from Breitbart and government, I’d like to hear more from him.
The thing is, we know Russia attempted to meddle with out voter rolls. Trump’s CIA and State Department are confirming it. We need immediate action across every level of government, and that requires direction from the President, which isn’t happening. This is a bid deal.
“How do they know it was due to incompetence? Are there particular workers who mishandled ballots more than others? Lot of questions unanswered.”
HW it’s all in the report. Mishandled ballots were individually vetted to see what error occurred. Workers were interviewed. You really need to read beyond the summary if you want to answer your own questions, instead of asking me to do the work for you.
“BOE *interviewed city employees* and manually reviewed thousands of election records including voted ballots, ballot containers, ballot transfer cases, voter applications, precinct poll books and the city’s training materials”
1. This is not a dress rehearsal! By the midterms, states must have: (1) hand marked #paperballots 4 all (assistive devices 4 those who need them); (2) Risk Limiting Audits (“RLA’s) 4 every race; & (3) a secure & TRANSPARENT chain of custody btwn Election Night & the RLA.
Read the whole thread:
https://twitter.com/jennycohn1/status/961670509535551488
M– Ive been surprised at how little major newspaper coverage of this there is today. I am truly hoping that they are working on developing the story.
HW: At no point did the Snopes article state a premise that the election was fair. You made that up. They did CONCLUDE that, though inaccurate, the errors favored no candidate, so the election result was not unfair which is different.
Meanwhile, people like Mike Huckabee, who are friends of the President, are downplaying the Russian threat, saying, as Huckabee did this morning, that “[Russia] didn’t succeed in changing one vote whatsoever.” Yes, that may be true. That doesn’t mean, however, they aren’t a threat going forward. Furthermore, as this post suggests, you can flip an election without flipping a single vote.
This isn’t about hacking electronic voting machines and flipping votes. This is about keeping people from voting.
“M
Posted February 9, 2018 at 11:04 am | Permalink
The thing is, we know Russia attempted to meddle with out voter rolls. Trump’s CIA and State Department are confirming it. We need immediate action across every level of government, and that requires direction from the President, which isn’t happening. This is a bid deal.”
It says right in the report a small number were breached and there is no evidence of tampering. It is a big deal. We need an un-hackable voting system. It’s not exactly unexpected though. Every country that is able has been spying on every other country for a long time. There is a good chance they wanted to be able to confirm vote fraud if it occurred. That would open up blackmail and/or the possibility of true delegitimizing leaks against the crooked winner.
“It is a big deal. We need an un-hackable voting system.”
Great. This is good. We agree. Let’s move forward from there.
Does it concern you that Trump hasn’t taken any moves to safeguard our elector system, or punish the Russians for their activities thus far?
Imagine if any of this had been revealed after the Obama election and how different the GOP response would be.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/9/democrats-demand-immediate-hearings-amid-election-/
Jcp2: More on the missing President. No one is in the loop apparently. https://twitter.com/cspan/status/961640086797471745
Trump met with Kissinger to discuss North Korea strategy yesterday. What could possibly go wrong? https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/961671974153080834
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5344473/Kissinger-Nuclear-strike-North-Korea-tempting.html
“Great. This is good. We agree. Let’s move forward from there.
Does it concern you that Trump hasn’t taken any moves to safeguard our elector system, or punish the Russians for their activities thus far?”
I don’t know. What should the punishment be for scanning registration rolls? What should the punishment be to the CIA for all the dictators they have propped up around the world? There has to be perspective on the potential damage. It could be benign in the sense that they may have wished to alert us to fraud in our own system. I know I would (do) want to know if there was true evidence of fraud regardless of the source.
“In Washtenaw County, 23 of 150 precincts, about 15 percent, could not be recounted. Other counties with high percentages of unrecountable precincts include Branch (27 percent); Cass (24 percent); Wayne (24 percent) and Ionia (24 percent).”
What 23 precincts in Washtenaw County could not be recounted due to wrong counts or bad seals and which was it in each one/what was the discrepancy exactly? (!)
HW- Lawrence Kestenbaum is our County Clerk. He’s a decent guy and very accessible. I’m sure you can query him and get a useful answer about what happened with the recount.
Whoah! A straight answer that is actually useful. Good job, Jean Henry.
As I recall, the optical scanners we use here tend to miss some votes. Not enough to swing an election and again, the issue was equally distributed.
Also I know some ballots, quite a few in 2016, had no vote for President and so would not be recounted in a presidential re-count.
The broken seal rule voiding a recount is a MI state law thing. If the seal is broken they don’t recount. The recount here was halted due to this widespread problem. Since the election here went to Trump, it was mostly Dems who found this suspicious. It would be worth talking to Larry about why so many seals are broken. I suspect there’s a design flaw v fraud. You know, call me crazy.
I didn’t need this. Beware the source, but still… We are living a bad reality tv show. https://twitter.com/CBSBigBrother/status/961642770153619456
You have information about broken seals in Washtenaw?
“Since the election here went to Trump, it was mostly Dems who found this suspicious.”
I don’t think that is safe to assume at all. They could easily have underestimated the amount of fraud needed to win/couldn’t cheat enough in Dem areas to overcome the solid red throughout the rest of Michigan.
Larry is super honest too. I am very confident that Washtenaw County elections are conducted with the utmost integrity.
plus one on Lynne’s post
The Washington Post today: “America’s foolish experiment with digital voting processes must end. The Kremlin—or other hostile foreign actors—will certainly strike again. It’s time for good old-fashioned paper to make a comeback.”
“The Washington Post today: “America’s foolish experiment with digital voting processes must end. The Kremlin—or other hostile foreign actors—will certainly strike again. It’s time for good old-fashioned paper to make a comeback.”
I agree with this except I think internal fraud is more likely. Have a locked plexiglass box the ballots are put into. The ballots are then counted by multiple people in clear view of volunteers. Simple
Better than s plexiglas box.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/18/estonia-the-digital-republic/amp
Tech doesn’t mean secretive.
http://fortune.com/2017/04/27/estonia-digital-life-tech-startups/
“Have a locked plexiglass box the ballots are put into. The ballots are then counted by multiple people in clear view of volunteers. Simple”
The Mr. Warlord again shows his naivete. Aside from the obvious, that ballots might be fraudulent before they are placed inside the box, and that boxes can be easily switched out or destroyed, as happens around the world with paper based voting systems, he, being the fool he is, discounts the fact that voter suppression is a different kind of voter fraud. Systems are in place to keep undesirables (e.g. black people) from voting at all, artificially depressing the number of potential voters for certain political parties.
The Mr. Warlord doesn’t see voter suppression as a problem, of course.
Iron Derpus
Posted February 9, 2018 at 4:06 pm | Permalink
“The Mr. Iron Derp again shows his naivete. Aside from the obvious, that how could ballots in a clear box be more likely to be fraudulent than in the current system, and that if boxes are in plain view of community volunteers the whole time how could they be switched, he, being the fool he is, somehow finds a way to bring voter suppression into it. With a logical fallacy he associates systems he believes are in place to keep undesirables (e.g. black people) from voting at all, artificially depressing the number of potential voters for certain political parties with Hyborian Warlord.
Despite no logical reason the Mr. Derp sees voter suppression as a problem associated with Hyborian Warlord, of course.”
Really HW, what’s the point. Are you actually a 9 year old?
What’s the point of saying all the garbage posts I have begun to mock?
IL’s points were legit. You offered no counter. You now do this whenever you feel insulted. If you never insulted anyone that would be reasonable I guess. But that’s not the case.
Are you at all concerned with voter suppression? That is the topic of this MM post.
What is your position on redistricting reform?
PS a ballot box, even clear, will not be in public view any more so than a sealed one once the polls are closed. The same opportunity for fraud exists with a clear of solid box and paper ballots. There are obviously other vulnerabilities to electronic voting and optical scanners. Any form of voting has vulnerabilities. I don;t think any of us knows which system is best. Most of us simply trust paper ballots more because the people handling them are in front of us and local. The answer is not ‘simple’ as you suggest. I know everything seems SO obvious to you. This is a sign of a serious limitation in your critical thinking.
IL has considerable experience in places with dramatic levels of voting corruption AND paper ballots. He might be worth listening to on this one.
Mr. Warlord only believes what he verifies personally. Testimony from individuals is always suspect, unless it is in the form of a convincing internet site. All other sources are suspect, as they have been manipulated by the deep state.
What point? He made no point at all. It’s a smear that’s doesn’t even have anything to do with what I said. This is mental illness.
“Jay See Pee Too
Posted February 9, 2018 at 6:53 pm | Permalink
I’m going to make a general derpy statement about someone that is so vague it’s basically meaningless. If it has anything to with the topic at all it will be very unclear.”
Hey, Jay See. I use mainstream sources, derp! It’s for a reason – so you can’t say dumb shit like that. I spoonfeed you but you spit it out and cry.
Oh shit – FBI paid $100,000 out of $1,000,000 to shady Russian for Trump dirt and got nothing!!! This shit off the CHAIN yo!
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/us/politics/us-cyberweapons-russia-trump.html
HW– “ballots might be fraudulent before they are placed inside the box, and that boxes can be easily switched out or destroyed, as happens around the world with paper based voting systems” These are valid points. Even if you are skeptical, you can easily look up how paper ballots are manipulated elsewhere, how votes are bought, how ballot boxes lost or stuffed.
But what you routinely do is seemingly go blind with rage at an insult and not see the point. This encourages others to insult you further, as the legitimate point is easily separated from the insult for the rest of us.
Further IL re-directed to the subject of the post– voter suppression– another form of voter fraud, and the titluar subject of this piece, and you accused him of misdirection.
I really don’t know ho we can encourage you to actually engage in the ideas and thoughts presented here. You came here to swing your sword, not engage, much less give anyone the time of day.I can tell you one thing, you aren’t going to be treated with the respect you feel you deserve. I doubt anyone in your life gives you the respect you crave or ever will.
Your positions are abhorrent to this crowd. You came in maybe thinking you would educate us. You have not. We don’t buy what you are selling and your information is seriously flawed and distorted. The abuse you recieve is on the merits of your positions and the way you convey them. We have learned a bit from you about how the most absurd of Trump supporters dig in their heels in support of a madman and justify that with rhetoric of heroic greatness and triumph. So that’s handy for us, the opposition. Thanks.
Oh shit! Trump just excused and felt sorry for another abuser while ignoring and calling into question the accounts of his accusers.
That guy is SUCH a fighter against evil! He is for sure striking down corruption and defending the innocent victims with every word and every tweet.
I rebutted him in the reply. It’s couched in sarcasm but it shows how what he said make no sense.
From your own link: instead of providing the hacking tools, the Russian produced unverified and possibly fabricated information involving Mr. Trump and others, including bank records, emails and purported Russian intelligence data.
The United States intelligence officials said they cut off the deal because they were wary of being entangled in a Russian operation to create discord inside the American government.”
“that how could ballots in a clear box be more likely to be fraudulent than in the current system”
“if boxes are in plain view of community volunteers the whole time how could they be switched”
I got that, but what he said DID make sense. Your reply didn’t. It showed a failure to discern context. For the most part, you arent even arguing the points we are making here. You are misinterpreting what is obvious to the rest of us. It makes discourse with you highly unsatisfactory. It’s like two ships that pass more than engagement. You keep shooting down the wrong targets. We’re just watching and laughing mostly.
“Jean Henry
Posted February 9, 2018 at 8:32 pm | Permalink
From your own link: instead of providing the hacking tools, the Russian produced unverified and possibly fabricated information involving Mr. Trump and others, including bank records, emails and purported Russian intelligence data.
The United States intelligence officials said they cut off the deal because they were wary of being entangled in a Russian operation to create discord inside the American government.”
Yeah, that is fucked up! Can’t you see it’s over? It’s being totally exposed. Seditious conspiracy all the way.
HW– I assume if the ballots were to be switched, it would be by the community volunteers, no? They are not in public view at all time. The issue remains that a clear or opaque sealed box makes no difference whatsoever in vulnerability to fraud.
a clear ballot box would violate voter privacy however, which is protected.
This was last year. Trump was president and there was an ongoing investigation of Russian hacking and his campaign. Nothing seditious in investigating a president of criminal or impeachable wrong doing. IF RC were president I’m sure you would support continuing investigations into her activities abroad.
*HRC
“I got that, but what he said DID make sense. Your reply didn’t. It showed a failure to discern context. For the most part, you arent even arguing the points we are making here. You are misinterpreting what is obvious to the rest of us. It makes discourse with you highly unsatisfactory. It’s like two ships that pass more than engagement. You keep shooting down the wrong targets. We’re just watching and laughing mostly.”
How do you get through life seeing everything backwards? That’s insane. I clowned on him and explained why at the same time. Nothing about that makes sense, especially the nasty smear he repeated in the same stanky breath.
Sounds to me like the Russians were setting the FBI up.
”
HW– I assume if the ballots were to be switched, it would be by the community volunteers, no? They are not in public view at all time. The issue remains that a clear or opaque sealed box makes no difference whatsoever in vulnerability to fraud.”
They are in public view in my system. Count them right there multiple times, count them with a scanner too, certify and send it to Lansing for verification.
“a clear ballot box would violate voter privacy however, which is protected.”
I don’t see how. You wouldn’t be able to see the print on the ballots. They’d have a jacket.
“that how could ballots in a clear box be more likely to be fraudulent than in the current system” — IL never said they were. He simply said your system offered no real difference.
Done here. Have a great night twisting your brain to contort reality to make anything anyone says or writes fit your narrative.
Dude have you voted? The jacket is removed when you submit you ballot.
The ballots are in public view in an opaque box as well.
“Sounds to me like the Russians were setting the FBI up.”
Right – to take advantage of their desperation to get Trump obviously. Is it not dawning on you how wrong it is for the FBI to be doing things like this? I don’t have to educate you. Life is going to to do that. Your entire mindset is toast.
And what happens when they are sent to Lansing? What if a different count comes up when they arrive there. What if people make mistakes counting. Humans are actually really bad at maintaining accuracy in repetitive tasks, especially ones that involve numbers. Counting is not something we do all that well. Monkeys can do it almost as well. Ever count out a drawer? Work at a bank? Handle cash in any quantity?
Don’t be a derp. We are talking about changing the vote system. Obviously you do what is necessary to do it. Ballot goes into a clear box with a jacket to cover it obviously. How does your mind even function? Crazy shit. If you can SEE the box with the ballots from the start of the day until they are counted ON THE SPOT that is a pretty good step towards cutting down any chance of ballot tampering.
You can still see the box from the start of the day until it is counted on the spot if the box is opaque and sealed. They are in the box. They don’t move. Your clear box offers no solution.
If a group of people are hand counting large quantities of identical ballots, how would you protect against switching out ballots at the point of the count? How would you protect about the inevitable human error. And what happens when they go to Lansing to be recount and there is a differential, as in Detroit?
You have multiple people count them and it has to agree at the end. If one counter can’t ever get it right then I don’t know what to do. They’re fired! The multiple counts have to agree with the scanner. When everything agrees it is certified with affidavits. This is all done at each precinct before sending to Lansing. Community members can attend to witness the process.
Ok life is too short and you are too boring. later.for reals. g’dammit.
“how would you protect against switching out ballots at the point of the count? ”
That’s where the community members come in. They have the right to monitor the proceedings.
They already do that. so do reps from each party. Really do some research before proposing solutions.
a diversion for you: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/02/09/did-hillary-clinton-collude-with-the-russians-to-get-dirt-on-trump-to-feed-it-to-the-fbi/
But they don’t count the ballots on the spot like in my system. My system reduces opportunities to alter the vote; more oversight.
I’m told that the count is always correct in Russia. Miscounts literally result in firing. The correct candidate always wins.
More charming defense of sexual abuse from Trump camp: http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/09/media/steve-bannon-times-up-movement-devils-bargain/index.html
Man those dudes and ladies sure are amazing righteous defenders of virtue. Cant argue with Bannon’s analysis, except the part where he equates equity with a takeover.
How do we have a political conversation across the partisan divide when we can look at the same potential result of this cultural moment and one side sees it as hopeful and the other side sees it as the end of the world?
I honestly have no answer to that, but maybe all great tipping points in society feel like this.
PS I’m a lot less confident than Mr Bannon that the end of the patriarchy is upon us.
Justin Amash
✔
@justinamash
Both the Republican and Democratic #FISA memos should be released. I’ve read both memos. Neither one endangers national security. The American people deserve the opportunity to read both memos.
“My system”
Yes, the one where black people aren’t allowed to vote.
and where vote counting is left to corrupt local hacks, where ballots are forged and boxes are magically replaced.
Never underestimate the power of human cooperation and how horribly corrupt politics can become at the local level.
But IL, Mr. Warlord put a lot of effort into his proposal, which “clearly” is better than what other people who study this professionally think, because Mr. Warlord, YouTube videos, and fake news, and fake science. /s
Perhaps Mr. Warlord would like a show of hands for absolute transparency, so that everyone is clear on who voted for who, to avoid the problem of corrupt local hacks.
It would certainly reduce the possibility of treasonous and seditious behavior.
Mr Warlord believes in mass scale and coordinated corruption. The Deep State. He does not know that all scale of corruption is just an amalgamation of individual mostly independent ethical failures. Local corruption is just as common as state and federal and global corruption. The best defense is not anarchism but institutional integrity, societal openness and cultural progress.
That HW thinks an authoritarian can ever fight corruption or protect human rights is counter to all historical evidence.
Please note, I am not saying the US hands are clean. I’m saying no ones hands are clean. It’s a miracle we aren’t at one another throats. It’s a miracle that most of us drive between the lines and pay our taxes. We should spend as much time asking why we have the degree of civilization, justice and equity that we do as we do exploring failure. We cant effectively address cultural and governmental failure without exploring what works.
HW is a populist. Most populist agendas threaten what works in order to fix whats broken. Most populists derive their solutions based on what’s wrong, not what has worked.
Stupid and dangerous.
Please remember all of you that HW was a Berner, and considered voting for Jill Stein, before moving on Trump ‘like a bitch.’
https://qz.com/1176355/how-richard-spencer-and-the-alt-right-are-adopting-left-wing-language-to-recruit-leftie-men/
It’s a common path.
Not LARP.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/donald-trump-steve-bannon-alt-right-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-anti-capitalism-together-a8076501.html
Something to remember. And, no HW, don’t even try to credit Trump for this stuff. Everything he does undermines this progress. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/opinion/sunday/why-2017-may-be-the-best-year-ever.html
And ANOTHER Trump camp sexual abuser and pedophile. Finally we have confirmation of a child prostitution ring run by a politico.
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/9/1740165/-Tea-Party-Leader-and-Trump-Campaign-Chairman-Pleads-Guilty-to-Prostituting-Kids-plus-Other-Crimes
Don’t forget Ralph Shortey: http://www.newsweek.com/republican-sex-trafficking-child-trump-coordinator-716348
CLEARLY Trump is, as HW asserts, a fellow noble warrior reaping harsh vengeance upon all circles of corruption and human trafficking.
Soon we will all see. The scales will fall from our eyes, Everything we thought we knew by th evidence will be revealed to be delusion. Trump and HW have come to rescue us from immorality and delusion. We can only hope they will forgive us.
I’m never going to apologize for being an ass to HW. Special exception. The ideology whose thinking and narratives he mimics, whose impact he excuses and denies, is as dangerous, if not more, than Islamic extremism.
https://www.splcenter.org/20180205/alt-right-killing-people
“I’m never going to apologize for being an ass to HW.”
There’s no need to.
It’s probably too much to hope that he’s gone away for good. There’s nothing left to learn from him. I have to focus elsewhere. Paying him attention is a form of valdiation for his unrelenting ego and delusion. Still, I have a hard time allowing his comments to stand. I think I need to going forward. My points have been made.
another Trumpit goes to jail for pedophilia
https://www.inquisitr.com/4780404/timothy-nolan-former-donald-trump-campaign-manager-sentenced-to-20-years-for-child-sex-trafficking/
Nothing in here about clear ballot boxes tho… https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/12/guardian-of-the-vote/544155/
Bothered to google clear ballot boxes. They are in use in some countries and were in use here until the early 20th century, for the reason Hw cited– the appearance of transparency.
:The box was therefore much more important for its symbolic power than for the effectiveness of its use. Though it is hard to trace exactly when the object fell out of favor, it all but disappeared into antiquity rather unexpectedly in the beginning of the 20th century. By then, the ideas of transparent elections were being replaced with concerns about anonymity, and the argument that voters couldn’t be influenced or intimidated to vote for a certain candidate if nobody knew who they voted for. The opaque boxes came back to the booths, along with other more technologically advanced designs, while glass boxes were donated to museums and antique shops, or repurposed as fish bowls.”
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-to-solve-voter-fraud-19thcentury-style-a-glass-ballot-box
Mueller just dropped indictments against 13 Russians!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rod-rosenstein-law-enforcement-announcement-live-stream-updates/
Read the indictment. Lots more than simply running adds on Facebook. Hiring Americans to put together both pro and anti Trump and Clinton rallies (though organizing pro-Clinton rallies saying she supports sharia law is classic cointelpro type stuff). Looks like most of their work on the ground was centered in Florida. For Mueller to have the evidence to support the indictments it must be through the NSA and capturing everything that is transmitted electronically, or perhaps they have a mole, though it looks most like electronic capturing.
13 Russians, and a number of unidentified co-conspirators, no US citizen named yet.
Baby stuff; no collusion still after all this time.
Not a lot of time at all yet, so far as these things go. There’s at least a year left before any major indictments, if the past is any indication.
New issues keep arising. Lots of threads to unwind in terms of Russian interference. Trump and co keep digging their graves deeper as time passes. Bannon refused to testify today. Too early still to make the popcorn.