I have a vague memory of proclaiming a while back that I was done posting about the hypocrisy of Trump supporters, as it doesn’t seem to do any good. The evangelical members of the Trump base didn’t abandon him when they heard him talking about grabbing women ‘by their pussies’ without consent, so, really, what’s the point of even mentioning it when Trump does something that, at least historically speaking, the American people would have unanimously considered either unpresidential or unchristian, like referring to non-white nations as “shitholes” or gleefully recounting stories of fucking the wives of his business associates. On the other hand, I think it’s important for the historical record that I at least mention the name Stormy Daniels, as it illustrates just how far down the slippery slope Donald Trump and his enables in Congress have already shoved the party of so-called “family values”.
Stormy Daniels, for those of you who hadn’t heard of her until yesterday, when the Wall Street Journal reported that Trump’s attorney had given her $130,000 just prior to the 2016 election in exchange for her silence concerning a 2006 sexual encounter with the reprehensible real estate mogul, is an adult film actress with dozens of credits to her name, including Good Will Humping, Grand Opening, The Witches of Breastwick, and Young & Anal, to name just a few.
As for why we’re just learning about the apparently consensual July 2006 tryst now, I’m not quite sure. It sounds as though a lot of people have known the facts of the case for some time. According to what I’ve read, both Good Morning America and The Day Beast knew about the story, and were in negotiations with Ms. Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, back in 2016, just prior to the election. It would appear, however, that the Trump campaign won the bidding war. [The Wall Street Journal traced the $130K back from the Daniels’ attorney to Michael Cohen, Trump’s trusted personal attorney and friend.] Now that it’s finally public knowledge, though, there doesn’t seem to be much doubt as whether or not it actually happened. We not only have photos of Trump and Daniels together at the Lake Tahoe celebrity golf outing where they met, but we have a second porn star, Alana Evans, attesting to the fact that Trump and Daniels tried to entice her into joining them and making it a threesome. And this, it’s probably worth noting for the puritanical killjoys in the audience, happened just months after Trump’s third wife, Melania, gave birth to the couple’s only child, Barron.
While it’s true that I can be a judgmental son-of-a-bitch, I try my best to be empathetic. Life is complicated, I tell myself, and people… even the politicians and leaders we most revere… sometimes make mistakes. In this instance, though, I’m pretty sure I’m justified in thinking that Donald Trump is vile and disgusting monster of a human being. Sure, he may have had an arrangement with his young wife, and she may have been fine with his trying to line-up threesomes with porn stars while she was home in New York, tending to their newborn, but I feel pretty confident in my negative assessment of our President’s character, with this being just one more data point in a significant cluster of data points. [Let’s not forget the allegations made several month ago by porn star Jessica Drake, who said that Trump offered her $10,000 for sex at this same 2006 golf event.]
As much as I detest Trump, though, I’m finding that most of my anger this evening has been reserved for those hypocritical, self-described “family values” voters who supported Donald Trump, saying that the thrice-married, pussy-grabbing reality television star would restore ‘dignity’ to the White House. And it pleases me to know that their cash contributions to the Trump campaign, at least in part, likely made their way into the bank accounts of professional sex workers. [Jessica Drake, as I understand it, has been paid-off since making her allegations as well.]
For what it’s worth, the whole “family values” thing was never anything more than a marketing ploy intended to secure the votes of poorly informed evangelicals for the corporatist agenda of the Republican party. As with abortion or same-sex marriage, it was something the GOP used to curry favor with the likes of Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. The Republicans, however, never really cared. They still cheated, and their mistresses still got abortions. But they held their noses and, like Lonesome Rhodes, pandered to the small town bible thumpers because it was good for business. It got them votes that could then be monetized with their donors… With the Trump administration, however, that facade has been torn away. It’s all been laid bare, and we can actually see it clearly for what it is. There is no substance. There is no truth. No one in the GOP has ever asked themselves, “What would Jesus do?” It’s all about power, supported by tribalism, and fed by fear, anxiety and racism. And the “family values” voters are now so deep in, they don’t even know which way is up. These people who now rally to Trump’s support, forgiving him his sins, once called Obama, a man who cashed in every bit of political capital he had in order to extend health care to millions of Americans, the Antichrist… That, my friends, is where decades of lying and Fox News have gotten us. Not only are regular Americans willing to vote against their best interests, but they’re willing to sacrifice their souls to do it.
Speaking of Obama, can you imagine how the news would have played out if we’d discovered that, a month before the election, he’d paid off a porn star with whom he’d had sex with a few weeks after his eldest daughter was born? Here, in Trump world, though, it’s two days later and the Stormy Daniels storm has already passed. Can anyone, Republican or Democrat, tell me the same would have been true had it happened to Obama? A scandal like this would have taken the Obama administration down. Here, though, amid stories of “shitholes” and warnings about incoming missiles, it’s just one more tiny blip on the radar. We have to note these things, though. We have to talk about them. We cannot just allow them to pass.
This isn’t normal. None of this is normal.
300 Comments
He’ll get the punishment he deserves soon. Take comfort in the exposure of Aziz Ansari and James Franco as the vile creatures they apparently are. The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
I’d like to think that the American people would have cared, if not for the missiles were launched against Hawaii this weekend.
I don’t really care about allegations of consensual sex. They are useful only to undermine the faith of the moralistic. This is the least concerning thing I’ve learned about Trump.
Why this gets more attention than the allegations of rape and assault of other women, as young as 14, I do not know. But I suspect, following the Roy Moore scenario, that it’s more acceptable to the public to aggressively pursue a very young ‘good girl’ than to have consensual sex with a ‘bad girl.’
Desperate attack!
OIG report due today so good timing but don’t think this will be very disruptive at all.
Sad- The Aziz Ansari thing does not sound like assault to me. It sounds like a bad sexual encounter, and tow people who had no idea how to communicate with one another. Inevitably, the metoo movement was going to lead to these sorts of celebrity click bait stories, offering every detail of celebrity sexual encounters. It’s a diminishment of the movement. But it’s also part of the process of re-setting the cultural bar for what’s acceptable.
I cant bother with the Franco stuff.
By all accounts the Clinton affair was consensual. It didn’t stop the GOP from using it to justify impeachment proceedings.
It all comes back to truth, and the fact that we no longer have an accepted baseline. If Obama had done this, there would have been calls for him to leave office. With Trump, however, the story doesn’t even make it an entire 24 hour news cycle. Why? Why is a Clinton lie cause for an investigation, whereas a Trump lie is just accepted?
There is some question on my part as to whether the media is using the women more than the men did in these instances. I see the media as trying to ride the crest of a cultural moment to get clicks and treating the whole thing as just another trend that must be capitalized upon before it fades away. And these women are being used to that end. Meanwhile, the work of expanding the movement past celebrity media moments to broad-based systemic and cultural change goes on. The media won’t be telling many stories about waitresses and secretaries and interns, but the movement will find was to offer them an empathetic ear, meaningful support and bodily agency.
The media will always tell stories about porn stars and presidents though.
Mark– The Clinton affair was with an intern. And he lied about it under oath. And the media treated her like shit. I don’t think impeachment proceedings were warranted. The entire thing was politically motivated, as was this story.
Personally, I’d rather Trump went down for something truly illegal rather than ‘immoral.’
There was way more to the Clinton investigation back then than a bj from Monica in the office. That was just what the media hammered every day.
Trump has not lied under oath. Yet.
As for Obama, well duh. He was held to a much higher standard, and he rose to it. See racism.
Bill Clinton is in no way comparable to Obama.
Trump also did not run as any kind of saint. He himself said he can get away with anything. So no one is surprised. Part of me is kind of glad if this is not big news. The assault accusations, like in Bill Clinton’s case, deserve more attention.
If Obama had done what Bill Clinton did, he would also have been crucified. If Hillary had done what Bill Clinton had done she would have been crucified. You are presenting the double standards as against the Dems when in fact it’s against the anyone who is not a white man in power.
White men in power are expected to do this kind of shit, because they usually do.
PS I believe that if some other group held the vast majority of power unchallenged, they would behave the same way.
“My people are so smart. And you know what else they say about my people, the polls? They say I have the most loyal people. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters, OK? It’s like incredible.”
That is funny shit. If you take it literally at all you don’t get it.
HW you are right the investigation into Clinton was initiated about “Whitewater”. Nothing ever became of that investigation. Look at the articles of impeachment, not a word about “Whitewater”. Two articles of impeachment and both items specified his lies about his sexual relations. If there are articles of impeachment against St. Trump, there will not be a word about the Russians.
It is as if the Republican can’t even read the play book they used against Clinton.
Trump has poor taste in porn women.
Really quite plebian.
Unlike Roy Moore, though, they were adults so we don’t have to walk into the quagmire of having to overlook and excuse pedophillia because it is politically convenient. Nor can Trump be accused of enabling other child rapists in this case.
In the other case, not so much.
Not a word came out about Uranium One until Trump talked about it. Not a word comes about a lot of things. That is exactly the kind of thing Inspector General Michael Horowitz is reporting on today – coverups and corruption in the FBI/Obama White House/Clinton campaign.
He’s just a young man learning his way. All other presidents would have been treated the same.
Wobblie is right. “Trump has poor taste in porn women” will be the indictment against our president.
Just read this quote by Bob Urie, “What Democrats don’t yet appear to understand is that if there were a video of women urinating on Donald Trump in a Moscow hotel room he would be selling autographed copies of it on the internet and giving them out as holiday gifts.”
Anything can be commodified and turned into a money maker, and that is the essence of St. Trump, a true son of the system.
No disrespect meant toward the people he has had sex with, but it is striking how middle of the road, white bread and retrograde his preferences are despite his “wealth”.
As for the porn women, well, they are selling to men who desire that type of look. It is doubtful that their real life personas are anything like their on screen personas.
Kind of like his diet. If I had his kind of money, I would not eat McDonalds. I don’t have money and I still don’t eat McDonalds.
“Anything can be commodified and turned into a money maker, and that is the essence of St. Trump, a true son of the system.”
And then gaming the system to benefit himself, that is the true essence of Donald Trump, who is little better than any given African autocrat.
“Speaking of Obama, can you imagine how the news would have played out if we’d discovered that, a month before the election, he’d paid off a porn star with whom he’d had sex with a few weeks after his eldest daughter was born? “
“Kind of like his diet. If I had his kind of money, I would not eat McDonalds. I don’t have money and I still don’t eat McDonalds.”
Cue Lynne to step in a call you a classist food snob.
Stormy Daniels in the off hours. http://waytofamous.com/images/stormy-daniels-05.jpg
Cue someone chiming in to call Ms. Daniels a “slut” or a “bitch.”
Say what you will about Ms Daniels, “Good Will Humping” was actually a pretty solid film. Very uplifting.
She ran for Senate in Louisiana. I don’t agree with her politics, but she’s not a stupid woman. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/15/stormy-daniels-not-runnin_n_538748.html
I liked the idea of trying to unveil the porn star.
Somewhere, EOS is crafting her thoughtful response about how this moral lapse makes Trump more human, and thus a better leader.
Stormy letter
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/01/12/trump-rep-former-porn-star-deny-hush-money-claims.html
At this point, it is irrelevant whether it is true or not that she took or was offered the money. The larger issue that the supposedly “moral” Republican Party and it’s supposedly “moral” Evangelical base had no problem electing a man who associated with sex workers.
Similar to how some people have no problem with pedophiles and child rapists if it proves politically convenient for them to do so.
“Somewhere, EOS is crafting her thoughtful response about how this moral lapse makes Trump more human, and thus a better leader.”
lol
There’s no better way to keep your finger on the pulse of “real” America than with a Big Mac in your belly, and your penis in a porn star.
In the year that President Trump has been in office McDonalds stock has gone from $121 to $173. MAGA.
And in his first year in office many sex harassers have been exposed. MAGA
The party of family values strikes again, been in the US for 30 years, 39 year old forcibly separated from his family
https://twitter.com/nwarikoo?lang=en
Jesus associated with sex workers.
Are we now supposed to compare Donald Trump to Jesus? As far as I can tell, Jesus didn’t have sex with said sex workers, at least in the traditional account.
What a messed up world this is.
“Similar to how some people have no problem with pedophiles and child rapists if it proves politically convenient for them to do so.”
Yeah, like you.
So HW, since you are so interested in following the evidence, if Ms Stormy denies the affair then why do you supposed was she paid 6 figures for a non-disclosure agreement (documented)?
I don;t really care about a consensual affair, but it seems your scrutiny is very selective, not about right and wrong at all.
As far as I know, Jesus did not need pay off Mary Magdalene so she would sign a non-disclosure agreement.
I have to wonder if history will treat the Trump era as an aberration, or if this sort of behavior by a President will become normalized. I worry that whenever Trump leaves office, others waiting in the wings with even worse predilections, who may not have considered running before, may be encouraged to do so after observing his “triumph.”
Haven’t you extraordinarily perceptive folks noticed the many instances of weird shit in recent days and weeks such as planes re-routing mid-flight, power/cell phone outages at major airports, outage at Disneyland, numerous flights to Guantanamo, etc? No glint of awareness that something unusual is happening is creeping in at all? Think! Pay attention!
““Similar to how some people have no problem with pedophiles and child rapists if it proves politically convenient for them to do so.”
Yeah, like you.”
How so? I did not defend known child rapist Roy Moore, nor did I try to excuse Donald Trump’s association with known child rapist Jeffrey Epstein.
Other people have because they have no problem with enabling pedophiles if it proves politically convenient.
Very strange.
“Haven’t you extraordinarily perceptive folks noticed the many instances of weird shit in recent days and weeks such as planes re-routing mid-flight, power/cell phone outages at major airports, outage at Disneyland, numerous flights to Guantanamo, etc? ”
lol
“So HW, since you are so interested in following the evidence, if Ms Stormy denies the affair then why do you supposed was she paid 6 figures for a non-disclosure agreement (documented)?”
Are you sure? How do you know the document is accurate? What does it say exactly? Just a news article you mean or what?
Re “Cue Lynne to step in a call you a classist food snob.”
I don’t think you are a classist food snob because you don’t eat McDonald’s. I really do not care what you eat. I only object when people start acting like eating at McDonald’s is some kind of character flaw. It isn’t.
Saint Trump is infallible.
” I only object when people start acting like eating at McDonald’s is some kind of character flaw. ”
I think it probably is. Eating at Burger King is worse.
Carl’s Jr, even worse.
Saint Trump only has sex with sex workers because he wants to help them.
He is like Jesus, only alive.
“In 1994, Trump went to a party with Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire who was a notorious registered sex offender, and raped a 13-year-old girl that night in what was a “savage sexual attack,” according to a lawsuit filed in June 2016 by “Jane Doe.” The account was corroborated by a witness in the suit, who claimed to have watched as the child performed various sexual acts on Trump and Epstein even after the two were advised she was a minor.”
And children. Trump has sex with children because he wants to help them.
Saint Trump, the second coming of Christ.
No wonder evangelical America is all over him.
EOS, when the authors of the Bible wrote that “Jesus associated with sex workers,” I don’t think that’s what they meant.
That suit was dropped due to having false information. That is why it would fit the pattern for Moore to have been a frame job. Allred represented a Moore accuser. Allred daughter Bloom represented Katie Johnson with the dropped suit.
IL. you are welcome to your opinion of course. But I think it is a much bigger character flaw to judge people on what they eat. *shrug*
Troll-monkey goes lol.
Sex is how he bestows the eucharist.
“That suit was dropped due to having false information. That is why it would fit the pattern for Moore to have been a frame job. Allred represented a Moore accuser. Allred daughter Bloom represented Katie Johnson with the dropped suit.”
Incredible that the Mr. Warlord believes this without question. This must be what’s written on the “disinfo” sites he reads.
Saint Trump is so Holy, He is beyond the reach of even the mr. Warlord’s “disinfo”sites.
We love McDonalds.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-community-centers-us-physical-social-networks
Did I say I believe anything, let alone without question? No. It’s all information to keep in mind. You think information itself is a joke though. You just believe what you are told. “Belief is the death of intelligence.”
Like Glenn Beck, the Mr. Warlord is only “asking questions.”
He might ask “Is the world flat?” and then quote flat earthers for a while. It matters not whether the Mr. Warlord believes anything or not…. because they are just questions.
It’s all just “information.”
It is interesting, the Mr. Warlord believes nothing at all so is free to pick and choose whatever he likes since it is merely “information.”
An odd existence.
Like “Did Donald Trump (at the very least) enable a child rapist by not reporting him to the police immediately?”
It matters not because it is just “information.”
Definitely the suit was pulled at the last minute and the plaintiff never made a scheduled public appearance. Bloom said she was in fear of her life. I think it’s one of their specialty dirty tricks to pay people to make hoaxy claims just ahead of an election. Why would Trump bring it up regarding Bill Clinton if Trump was part of it too? I would expect if that was the case there would be mutually agreed upon silence.
He has known all along and now he can do something about it. If you think that is equal to looking the other way then what do you think he could have done about it before now? Go to the FBI? Back then? They actively covered up the Franklin scandal. They were in on it. Not everyone in the FBI of course but certain key people. This shit is going to hit the public folks so be prepared psychologically. At least keep in mind what I have said.
lol
Troll-monkey
HW and IL
https://youtu.be/D9EiCTrdeN8
I’m pretty sure that everyone will be fine psychologically.
I am merely entertained by the mr. Warlord.
While I run code, I am able to distract myself through being entertained by the mr. Warlord.
A quaint and effortless distraction.
Pompous!
“Haven’t you extraordinarily perceptive folks noticed the many instances of weird shit in recent days and weeks such as planes re-routing mid-flight, power/cell phone outages at major airports, outage at Disneyland, numerous flights to Guantanamo, etc? No glint of awareness that something unusual is happening is creeping in at all? Think! Pay attention!”
“They were in on it. Not everyone in the FBI of course but certain key people. This shit is going to hit the public folks so be prepared psychologically. At least keep in mind what I have said.”
I would like to thank Mr Warlord for providing a perfect example of a conspiracy theorist for my 12 year old son. Useful.
It doesn’t have to mean anything at all. It’s just “information.”
Don’t see how you can make comments like this but you are willfully ignorant. You actually refuse to know anything real. It’s very destructive. You are actually running interference for the government abuse ring by trying to ridicule what I am saying. Conspiracy of Silence, The Franklin Coverup
It’s you who acts like nothing has meaning. You say why does anything matter? We’re all going to die, right? Just a nihilist creep with nothing to say desperately trying to twist anything and everything; that’s you.
“You actually refuse to know anything real. It’s very destructive.”
Well, now, who does this describe perfectly? Put down the YouTube and Alex Jones. Listen to your friends and get some help.
“Haven’t you extraordinarily perceptive folks noticed the many instances of weird shit in recent days and weeks such as planes re-routing mid-flight, power/cell phone outages at major airports, outage at Disneyland, numerous flights to Guantanamo, etc? ”
The obvious signs of an Empire in decay. Everyone of these are indicators of our failing infrastructure. Obama’s ARA, was pathetically small and we have spent nothing on improvement, hardly keeping up with the maintenance. The plutocrats are stripping the country of all of our wealth, the standard of living for most of us has declined during my life. HW being an adolescent has no bench marks or standards to judge his world around him.
The Romans stopped maintaining the aqueducts, baths and roads as their wealth was consumed by its corrupt plutocrats. Happens in every Empire.
As Empires decline they bring all the evils that are subjected on the periphery back home.
It goes way beyond Nebraska by the way.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/conspiracy-of-silence/
“Conspiracy of Silence is a 56-minute unreleased documentary film produced by Yorkshire Television in 1994.
The subject of the film is an alleged child sexual abuse ring involving a number of prominent Nebraska persons, including Lawrence King, an Omaha banker, political fundraiser, and convicted felon.
The documentary was scheduled for broadcast in the United States on cable outlet Discovery Channel on May 3, 1994.
However, it was never aired. Proponents of the film claim that it was withdrawn due to political pressure; neither Yorkshire Television nor Discovery Channel commented officially on why it was not aired.”
“You actually refuse toknow anything real ”
Lol
By the way it has been 113 days since the hurricane devastated Puerto Rico. 1 million three hundred thousand still without power. This is how Empire treats its vassal subjects, does “our government” care that they are citizens?
Nothing funny about the Conspiracy of Silence. Running interference for this kind of thing? You are fucked.
https://www.wanttoknow.info/mind_control/19890629_washington_times_franklin_affair
Homosexual prostitution inquiry ensnares VIPs with Reagan, Bush
‘Call boys’ took midnight tour of White House
Paul M. Rodriguez and George Archibald
The Washington Times
June 29, 1989
“…In addition to credit-card fraud, the investigation is said to be focused on illegal interstate prostitution, abduction and use of minors for sexual perversion, extortion, larceny and related illicit drug trafficking and use by prostitutes and their clients…
…Operators of the ring told The Times that videotapes, audio tapes and still photographs were made of sex acts performed by clients and the call boys, including perverted acts…”
HTML text of article
https://www.wanttoknow.info/890629washingtontimesfranklin
I don’t know, I’m starting to find things similar to what HW is saying everywhere. A local Facebook group just led me to this.
GAY SHAME has uncovered shocking new truths! Upon studying the blueprints to the San Francisco LGBT Community Center, GAY SHAME has gathered evidence that it is in fact a portal to the 8th dimension. Cleverly disguised as a community center, familiar evil mega-corporate donors (ranging from Lennar to PG&E to Bechtel) and the San Francisco power elite, have been using their office park portal to suck away all our time, energy and passion…30 years after the White Night Riots and 40 years after Stonewall, radicals from splintering time periods and multiple movements without number shall join forces…This will be a high-concept anachronistic interpretive dance-off to determine the fate of radical queer politics!
When will we be woke?
P.S. The Baltimore piece is excellent. MM is such a good writer. It really made my morning.
Slate says that Trump and Daniels had an affair for over a year.
Slate: “Stormy’s Story. Did Donald Trump pay a porn star to keep quiet about an affair?”
Read more:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/01/did-donald-trump-pay-porn-star-stormy-daniels-to-keep-quiet-about-an-affair.html
“Jesus associated with sex workers.”
I’m glad you find this so funny, EOS.
You make it a great point on this site to talk about your Christian faith, but it is completely hollow.
another slave rebellion in the works
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/florida-prisoners-set-begin-strike/
ways you might help
https://incarceratedworkers.org/news/5-ways-support-fl-prisoners-going-strike-next-week
“I don’t think you are a classist food snob because you don’t eat McDonald’s. I really do not care what you eat. ” –Lynne
In fact, as I recall it, you said refusing to eat at Mc Donald’s was a sign of class bias.
“I only object when people start acting like eating at McDonald’s is some kind of character flaw. It isn’t.”– Lynne
And then, you asserted that one could not object to McDonald’s corporate practices without being classist. And that objecting to McDonald’s predation on the poor was a character flaw, while going to McDonald’s made one one of the people.
The only person subscribing a class value to McDonald’s was you. Apparently since they serve the people, they are immune to criticism. You and our President are true populists. We know that because of where you eat.
“But I think it is a much bigger character flaw to judge people on what they eat. *shrug*” Yeah, no shit.
“Jesus associated with sex workers.”
Again, according to the common account, Jesus didn’t have sex at all.
But, whatever, Trump is Jesus. Because Jesus would have not reported child rapist Epstein to the police immediately.
I think Wobblie might have intended this to be here, as this is the thread where we discussed slave uprisings.
Wobblie: “Another slave rebellion in the works”
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/florida-prisoners-set-begin-strike/
I’m lovin it!
https://youtu.be/-IHcp8Pl_X4
Seriously, what’s wrong with you, you elitist liberal snobs? McDonald’s does serve the American people, and it serves us reliably, and cheaply, and quickly, and without having to get out of our cars, and I say anyone who refuses to eat there “as a matter of principle” is un-American. That said, Donald Trump is a bloated disgrace who doesn’t really “get” the beauty of McDonald’s. What kind of fool orders two Big Macs and two fish sandwiches, to eat himself, in one sitting? Their value menu is where McDonald’s shines, not their flagship sandwiches. I’m serious. Any “real” American would know that.
I just don’t eat at McDonalds, because it’s gross. And I will eat almost anything. That it’s a horrible company across the board is just a bonus. It’s not even that cheap. For the same price, I can eat at any number of non-fast food joints. I don’t care where you eat or why. No one deserves a merit badge for where or what they eat. Period.
Wrong on all accounts. It’s not gross, it’s good. It’s a good company where nearly anyone who wants to can get a job. 7th largest employer in the US. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that it is cheap. Not the fancy flagship sandwiches, which only a bloated fool like Trump would order, but the value menu. Compare the calories per dollar ratio on the McDonald’s value menu to comparable items at any other fast food restaurant. Anyone who knows fast food knows that McDonald’s is the undisputed champion in the value category, for nearly a decade, when Burger King took the Whopper Junior off their dollar menu and Wendy’s took the Caesar side salad and baked potato off theirs. Undisputed champion. If you knew what you were talking about, you would eat at McDonald’s and you would deserve a badge too, but it’s clear you are out of your wheel house on this topic.
McDonald’s is by far the best of the most commonly known fast food restaurants. While you can go overboard if you want, the basic menu’s portions are not too big and not too small, the prices are reasonable and the food is edible without evil after-effects. Unlike Burger King, Mcdonalds is consistent worldwide. I can go to any country and buy McDonalds and know exactly what I’m getting.
I have to side with the hick here. Ms. Henry needs to explore this more.
Plus, the coffee at mcDonalds is by far the best of any fast food place, and almost as good as what you would get at a more expensive cafe.
Maybe after Trump is forced to resign because of his collusion with the Russians to steal the election he could become a pitch man for McDonalds.
Any one up for a McTrump?
Everyone does love that coffee!
I also would not say that McDonalds is a “horrible company” relative to other companies catering to that kind of market.
Don’t miss the McPick, two regular menu items for $5. It ends next week.
A McTrump, fried baloney, Velveeta, on wonder bread. They’d sell a billion.
Ate that McDonalds value meal till the heart attack. Since McDonalds is a franchise, it is not really the 7th. largest employer and working conditions can vary greatly between franchise and company stores. In Europe they pay their workers significantly more, while charging the same relative price for the food.
I think a McTrump might be like a turduckin, a chicken nugget, surrounded by a fish filet all inside of a Big Mac with packets of extra sauce in a gold foil wrapper and a free apple pie with every purchase.
Maybe Aziz Ansari can get a job there.
Sorry about the heart attack, but look at Trump, perfect health, just a little chubby.
I prefer Popeye’s.
Popeyes is just a standard chicken place anywhere outside of Louisiana and Mississippi.
Mickie D’s ( and other fast food joints ) adds Dow Methocel to nearly everything on the menu. Helps keep the costs down and taste consistent. It has a mild laxative effect as well, so maybe Trump is self medicating.
It’s still better that McDonalds.
Popeye’s, ha ha! It’s a one-percenter’s idea of a fast food restaurant. They may have KFC beat, but who doesn’t. They don’t have a value menu, do they, and I’m not even sure you can get anything, not even a small fries at Popeye’s for less than $2. Maybe a plain biscuit, but for just $1 McDonald’s biscuit comes with a sausage patty. America wasn’t built on Popeye’s, it was built on McDonald’s. Wobblie’s point about Europe is well taken, but all American workers deserve better, not only fast food workers.
Popeyes is a chicken place. McDonalds is a burger place.
It makes no sense to compare them unless you want to compare chicken places to burger places.
“Popeye’s, ha ha! It’s a one-percenter’s idea of a fast food restaurant. ”
What the hell are you talking about? Popeyes made it’s name in the South. Southerners in Mississippi and Louisiana overwhelmingly prefer Popeyes to KFC if pressed. Those aren’t one percenters, those are regular people who like chicken.
Unfortunately, Popeyes changed it’s style for stores outside of the (true) South, and is no better than Church’s.
what kind of shitshow was that you started, jean, by trolling lynne over a long ago conversation about mcdonald’s? are you fucking bored? we already have a pathetic level of discourse thanks to people like HW. next you’ll go find a comment from a DAY person and spin a theory about the youth of today, based on a single comment on FB. working out your thoughts is fine. using others as fodder is pathetic.
Zingermans roadhouse has the best fried -chicken and it’s a bargain!
Bringing up chicken and DAY, does that mean you want to bring up that whole gentri-fried chicken thing again? I thought DAY had already disbanded due to infighting? Weren ‘t they just created to stop I-Village?
All you hear about these days is housing. Why don’t you liberals get Trump to build public housing? He’s known as a developer. Every town in America could have it’s little Trump development – you never know, it might appeal to his ego?
The problem with all fast food is that they support and are supported by the corporate agro-industry. Destroying farming, the amazon and working folks health. We get addicted to fat, salt and sugar early. The animal protein industry kills far more Americans than all the terrorist combined. We eat fast food primarily because we are forced to work far in excess of 40 hrs. per week (almost all households have more than one earner). Nobody has time to spend preparing healthy food. Until the heart attack I had to work between 60 and 80 hrs a week. My wife easily works that many hours as well. Only had time to prepare meals was on Sunday. Tried to prepare two or three dinners so we could have some left overs during the week. But when out in my truck, ended up eating those value meals because of the cost. Should have bought the salads, but money is like water, you have to decide which way and to whom it will flow. Healthy food is more expensive, unless you have the time.
Zingermanns is just a money suck. I never go there.
Was the Mr. Warlord in DAY?
I figured he never left his house.
HW was in agreement with DAY about I – Village.
I still don’t understand why there is so little appreciation of HW? People have different views on things.
Think of HW as Nugent in MMs wonderful Baltimore piece. Here’s somebody different coming over the wall, what are you going to do? MM and his friends didn’t throwing rocks at him and call him a fucking idiot.
Zingermans cost a lot because they pay their dishwashers $20 an hour with full health benefits and a pension. McDonalds is cheap because they aren’t the best with their employees. Where do you want to spend your money?
KJC was referring to other interactions I have had with DAY members on their FB pages, assuming that responding to their posts the extent of my interactions with them, which is not the case. I have never gone harder at them
Than they do at others and me. Same as Lynne or anyone else here. I’m not sure why it upsets radicals so that a middle aged liberal white lady has a strong voice and informed opinions and uses both in public forums. It just really bugs some of them, like kjc. They would rally like the liberal white ladies to stay home and knit pink hats while they point fingers and laugh. I enjoy KJC. As I do DAY. I see their value. It’s unfortunate many can not see mine, but I also don’t give a shit.
It seemed other people were engaged in the fast food conversation. One would think KJC would be engaged in sticking it to the Ronald McDonakd man. But then she rarely has a thing to say but snark to anyone outside the in group, which is true of DAY too. Great way to build a movement.
Who’s the troll? The person who shows up occasionally to snipe one line personal attacks after lurking in the shadows. Or someone who engages mostly within the range of topics that have already been raised here? Someone who is certain of her viewpoin and seeks to learn nothing or someone who is figuring out her positions as the information comes in?
It is shocking to DAY that anyone would dare question them in the precise manner that they question others. They are that certain of their righteousness (and that they speak for the poor rather than millennial mostly white and queer first wave gentrifiers from middle class backgrounds with guilt they need to externalize) that they call any critique of their ideology or strategy as ‘punching down.’ I don’t know what kjc feels about getting as good as she gives, but she’s also given me zero reason to care.
“Zingermans cost a lot because they pay their dishwashers $20 an hour with full health benefits and a pension. McDonalds is cheap because they aren’t the best with their employees. Where do you want to spend your money?”
I don’t make $20 an hour and don’t have health benefits. Why should I care about people who work at Zingermann’s when making a decision about what to eat for lunch? The food isn’t particularly good in my opinion relative to the cost, in my opinion.
Certainly, if I worked there, it would be a different story. But I don’t. If all restaurants paid what Zingermann’s does and offered the same level of benefits, the cost of eating out would increase as well, meaning that I would simply eat out less (not a bad thing). Other people might, too, and people might lose their jobs. Something to consider.
Zingermann’s has an artificial existence based on Ann Arbor as a high income town and a tourist destination (football). The entire model is entirely inappropriate everywhere else.
Story Daniels is about to talk about Trump’s small, orange. leathery penis.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/intouch-to-drop-5000-words-from-stormy-daniels-on-sex-with-trump
Sad— dishwashers at zing are not paid $20/hour nor do they have a pension. They can buy into an IRA and the business matches up to $1000/year. (Wooo!) They can Buy into a good benefits package. It’s not provided for free or even spilt half way. Don’t even get me started on what they call employee ownership— single shares they have to buy reflecting a tiny percentage of the businesses worth that can’t be traded, only cashed inbto the company. Zing pay is at or below par with the rest of the food industry now. McDonalds is paying $11/hour starting in Ann Arbor now. That’s higher than Zingerman’s. Zing treat staff well but they have not met their own intentions re living wages etc. They labor market is tight and they still seem to think people should be grateful to work there. This is not inside info. They have open books. You can find this all out if you ask or attend a meeting, though I’m sure They would spin it differently.
And the fried chicken is good but not that great. Highly inconsistent. Way too expensive. Lots of places do it as well. (There are other Zing businesses who do their thing better too) This does not stop the Roadhouse from doing an incredible amount of business each night. Never underestimate the appeal of flashy mediocrity.
.
I do not at all care about Zingermann’s.
Ali at JG has done more for desperate people looking for jobs than Zingermann’s has, in my opinion.
Right? I can’t believe the people of Ann Arbor didn’t elect him to council. That dude is real!
IL— Zing success is built not on rich locals or football but on the mass of loyal and wealthy UM alumni pool. UM graduates more students per year than any other university. Many businesses here capitalize on alumni nostalgia, but none as well as Zingerman’s. They have a national reputation because of UM. They deserve a lot of credit for doing many things really well. They are simply imperfect, and now huge and always growing to such a degree that maintaining integrity becomes difficult. They are an unstoppable machine. Not much ofbyheirvrevenue comes from Ann Arbor though.
Jean, I dont recall the conversation in the same way you do.
I recall trying to explain how obesity is very related in our cultural mindset with lower socio-economic class which is why I have been made so aware of it so much. I recall saying that most of the McDonalds shaming either comes in the form of concern trolling over health and/or finances. I recall telling you that as a fat person it feels like a microaggression. I recall reminding you of the time you said that when someone tells you that you are being a bigot the best answer is “I don’t see it” rather than a denial but then you just deleted the conversation which I took as your way of saying that you dont see it. I respected that. Now I see I was wrong. You werent being a good person at all! You were just controlling the conversation in a nasty way. So be it.
I am a little disappointed but the fact that the conversation stuck with you is a good sign. It may mean that on some level, you know you are being a hypocrite on this subject. I know that in my own case it has often taken many years and many conversations in order to overcome a bias.
Me? I hate Trump. Yet it disturbs me greatly to see the left go after him so much about his weight and diet. Those are NOT his character flaws but people are starting to associate them with his other ones. I am starting to worry that my body and dietary choices will not only make people think the usual bad things they think about fat people but all of Trump’s real character flaws too.
Ali’s a good guy, but every restaurant in A2 is hiring almost all the time for the last few years. I’m sure they’d all be more picky if they could afford to be.
kjc, thank you. I too wondered a bit about why such a long ago conversation was being brought up mostly out of context.
wobblie is right though about the issue being one of bad systems. I know that shaming individuals for their consumer choices is not effective at changing systems too. I strongly support adopting policy that helps change systems.
Lynne— in no way shape or form did I talk about obesity related to McDonalds. I’m not so ill informed about obesity as to blame it on a failure of personal responsibility. You projected that. I don’t blame anyone for eating at McDonald’s unless they assert it as a badge of proletariat honor. I object to McDonalds, as I said then, because with decades In The food business, I know Just How predatory on many levels there business is. If I mentioned public health concerns those would relate to offering up giant calorie rich and nutrient deficient products cheaply which leads to the lethal malnutrition and obesity combo. And it’s the malnutrition that concerns me most. You never thought to ask but immediately jumped to assumptions about me and what I was saying. You took something personally that could not have been, since I didn’t know who you were at the time. I smoked for years but didn’t feel a need to defend tobacco companies.
When get rid of all the illegals wages will rise and we will reach full employment
I kept with it, Lynne, because your defensiveness didn’t make sense to me. Now I get it. I see why you were tweaked. It seemed uncharacteristic. I agree that fat shaming Trump is a bit too easy but I’m ok with shaming his choice I Food, when everything is available to him. I stand by my original assertion that McDonald’s is gross and if at all possible, people should eat elsewhere. Saying that doesn’t mean I judge most people who eat there, especially the poor. What a waste of time. I just wish they didn’t feed the beast. I feel the same way about most Republicans.
The New Republic has a good piece out today on this very issue (not what Zingerman’s pays dishwashers, but the perceived hypocrisy of family values Republicans). It’s called “The Triumph of Porn over Social Conservatism.” It’s all consistent with patriarchy, they argue. Here’s on the article ends.
https://newrepublic.com/article/146631/triumph-porn-social-conservatism
Pornography was a political hot button topic from the 1960s until the 1990s, when changes in censorship law and new technologies like video recording made erotic imagery much more pervasive. Along with opposing abortion and gay rights, being anti-porn was one of the key organizing principles of the religious right. In 1997, Moral Majority founder Jerry Falwell spoke for many social conservatives when he told CNN, “pornography hurts anyone who reads it, garbage in, garbage out. I think when you feed that stuff into your mind, it definitely affects your relationship with your spouse, your attitude towards life, morality.” But today, Jerry Falwell’s son, Jerry Falwell Jr., is one of Donald Trump’s biggest supporters. (In 2016, he was photographed at Trump’s office in front of a framed copy of a Playboy cover featuring Trump.)
The shift from Falwell’s relentlessly anti-porn position to Falwell Jr.’s indulgence of Trump was made possible because of a wider shift away from the older anti-porn crusades, which perhaps peaked with the Reagan administration’s release of the Meese Report in 1986, which made a dubious effort to link pornography with violent crime. The religious right’s anti-porn push in the last decades of the twentieth century took place at a time when porn was mostly distributed through videotapes and magazines. It was possible to imagine that consumer boycotts could suppress porn. That became far less realistic after the rise of the internet.
Even during the height of anti-porn fervor, there was a small but significant minority of conservatives who were much friendlier to pornography, largely on libertarian grounds. As National Review founder William F. Buckley admitted in 1966, Hugh Hefner had a utilitarian theory of ethics “to which such modern ‘conservatives’ as Ayn Rand seem fully to subscribe.” Hefner’s hedonism also appealed to many conservatives outside the ranks of Rand’s movement. At Buckley’s own magazine there were prominent voices who, echoing the aristocratic libertinism of the eighteenth century, argued that male sexual license was perfectly compatible with traditionalism. The novelist D. Keith Mano, who described himself as a “Christian pornographer,” was a frequent contributor in the 1970s to both Playboy and National Review. In both his fiction and reportage (sometimes touching on the demimonde of strip clubs and cable access porn shows) Mano gustily embraced the sexual free-for-all of the 1970s. Other National Review writers, notably Guy Davenport and Theodore Sturgeon, also dabbled in literary erotica.
Writing in Partisan Review in 1985, National Review senior editor Jeffrey Hart argued “there is no reason why art cannot deal with erotic experience,” adding, “I have before me the March 1979 issue of Playboy, with a characteristic centerfold depicting one Denise McDonnell. She is without doubt a beautiful human being… I am certainly not sorry this photograph exists.” Hart’s position seemed a decidedly minority one in 1986, when Jerry Falwell Sr. was at the height of his influence. But over time, more conservatives have come around to Hart’s way of thinking. This shift was influenced by the rise of feminism and LGBT rights, which made the cultural ideal found in Playboy seem quaint in its unquestioning acceptance of heterosexuality and traditional gender norms. This is why some conservative websites mourned the death of Hugh Hefner last year: The Federalist’s publisher, Ben Domenech, wrote that Hefner’s work celebrated “the sexual complementarity that has bound men and women together since the dawn of time.”
As Douthat noted in 2016, there was a natural alliance between Trumpism and the porn-loving anti-feminism of the internet age. According to Douthat, “among men who were promised pliant centerfolds and ended up single with only high-speed internet to comfort them, the men’s sexual revolution has curdled into a toxic subculture, resentful of female empowerment in all its forms.” This subculture found its hero in Trump: “This is where you find Trump’s strongest (and, yes, strangest) fans. He’s become the Daddy Alpha for every alpha-aspiring beta male, whose mix of moral liberation and misogyny keeps the Ring-a-Ding-Ding dream alive.” This aligns with Goldberg’s observation, from a liberal perspective, that “Trump has reconciled reactionary politics with male sexual license.”
It’s easy for liberals to decry the hypocrisy of Republicans, the putative party of family values, embracing Trump as its avatar. But there is no real hypocrisy here. The core value is patriarchy, which can take different forms. There is an older patriarchy which wears the mask of chivalry, and offers women protection in exchange for submissiveness. But the age of chivalry is no more. We now have raw patriarchy, which asserts its rights through naked displays of power. And the president, with his porn star mistresses, his boasting of sexual assaults, and even his phallic tweets about the size of his nuclear button, is the perfect leader for conservatives’ post-chivalric world.
It is perfectly fine to shame Donald Trump for eating like he does (a child).
Clearly, he doesn’t know a whole lot about food, and if you don’t know a lot about food, you don’t know a whole lot about humanity, which, to me, is a quality one hopes for in a head of state.
Changing Community consensus (or Shaming people) around a consumer choice is in fact an effective means of creating changes in consumption. That’s well documented. See the ban on smoking in public spaces among with cigarette taxes leading to an overall decease in smoking. This has not worked for obesity because obesity is largely not about consumer choices but genetics and possibly other external causes. On the other hand, making McDonald’s and other fast food and sugary drinks less accessible might improve overall health outcomes. Because there’s a lot more wrong with McDonald’s etc than calories.
Sort for misspellings, worse than usual. On phone, Recovering from dental surgery.
Personally I’ve always found KFC to be more satisfying than kjc. After all KFC is finger lickin good.
People should be shamed for eating food that isn’t good for them in the quantities that Donald Trump eats them.
His recent health report is a fabrication.
Banning smoking and taxing cigarettes were more about changing a system than shaming people for their choice to smoke. That is why it worked. That along with presenting people with information.
FWIW, I used to smoke and I never recall being shamed for it in the same way I have been shamed after admitting that I sometimes eat at McDonald’s. FWIW, they have closed the McDonald’s that I used to find so convenient so I have stopped eating there mostly. A change in the system has changed my behavior.
“His recent health report is a fabrication”
So you think the hold over doctor from the Obama administration is presenting false information about the state of the Presidents health? Do tell. Just give me a few minutes to prepare myself psychologically for the information.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronny_Jackson
“People should be shamed for eating food that isn’t good for them in the quantities that Donald Trump eats them.”
IL, that is a very bigoted and prejudiced opinion about something that isnt really any of your business. It is interesting how we shame people for risks they take to their health if they are eating “low-class” food while at the same time praising people for taking risks in other situations. But perhaps I am misjudging you and you are critical of the risks others take with their health and safety.
“Banning smoking and taxing cigarettes were more about changing a system than shaming people for their choice to smoke. That is why it worked. That along with presenting people with information.”
It worked because it became socially unacceptable to smoke and people started watching their parents die from it.
Nobody cares about a “system” (whatever that is) or “information.” People know that alcohol is bad for them but Americans are drinking more than they have in a long while.
“IL, that is a very bigoted and prejudiced opinion about something that isnt really any of your business.”
Fine.
It’s kind of what I do for a living (when I’m making a living.)
SAD, even though health is determined much more by genetics than lifestyle choices, people tend to think the opposite. They cannot believe that a guy like Trump can have the lifestyle he does and still be healthy for a man of his age. So they dismiss the doctor as a quack. People also have a hard time accepting that a shitty person can win the genetic lotto and live to an old age while engaging in risky lifestyle choices. It is a normal reaction to cognitive dissonance.
I think this is because of two things. First, people like to think they are more in control of their lifespan and health than they actually are. And second, people really buy into the “just world hypothesis.” Any evidence to the contrary is simply dismissed.
Agreed whole heartedly Lynne about Trump Health. Even the cognitive test makes sense to me as it doesn’t test for capacity but dementia. Trump has always been this way. I think he has a personality disorder, which can worsen Under stress but don’t affect intelligence.It can make smart people seem stupid though…
The cigarettes, smoking them now is met with much shaming. It’s totally different than earlier. People look, sniff and judge much as they do when watching the overweight eat or shop for Food.
It gets worse:
Porn star Stormy Daniels to ‘In Touch’: Trump said I was “just like his daughter” https://trib.al/5sQnRhW
“even though health is determined much more by genetics than lifestyle choices, people tend to think the opposite. ”
Who said this? I don’t think there is any consensus on this at all. Genetics and nutrition are far too complex to make this kind of grand pronouncement. People who get paid to do this kind of thing would be careful about making this kind of statement. In popular discourse, it’s just simply misleading. Perhaps clinicians and popular writers might say such a thing to avoid shaming patients and audiences, but in reality, there’s no basis for this kind of concrete statement.
What aspect of health you wish to focus on. Are we talking obesity? Lung cancer? Diabetes? Hypertension? Cancer? What kind of cancer? Figuring out what exactly causes any of those is no easy task.
So, no, there’s no evidence to support that idea that lifestyles don’t impact overall health or don’t impact health as much as genetics. There is ample evidence to support the idea that poor lifestyles will exacerbate preexisting genetic risk for a variety of negative health outcomes.
If you are predisposed to be obese, eating fried shit from McDonalds everyday will make you obese but that’s not to say eating fried shit every day in sufficient quantity won’t make most people obese. We know that both are true.
But if a doctor could fabricate Trumps health report who knows what they could do, maybe it’s all fabricated? Maybe it wasn’t a meteor! Maybe HW is a prophet? Maybe Jesus does talk to EOS?
Historically, Presidential health reports have been notoriously incomplete or misleading.
https://vimeo.com/188835636
An interesting if over-produced (“entertaining”) exploration of why consistently thin people usually remain so. (Under studied) Part two is actually better.
IL, I didnt mean that lifestyle choices have no impact. It is clear that they do. What I meant is that genetics is a major factor in how long a person will live and what health problems they might experience. Obviously it is very complex. So much so, that there is no value in shaming people for their behavior.
Because the way I see it, if you start shaming people about their diets, it opens you up to having someone point out to you that you are being a hypocrite condidering your own lifestyle choices. Or do you think being an anti-social grump is good for your health?
Ok Ok, I don’t know you irl. I hope that the lonely persona you project here is not the person you really are. You know why? Not having close relationships is bad for you. And even worse is a lack of just small talk with the everyday people in your life. You don’t strike me as someone who is particularly chatty though. I hope I am wrong.
Shaming people’s lifestyle choices is a good way to improve the public health. Shaming people for smoking, for eating too much, for eating the wrong foods, for drinking too much, for having unprotected sex, etc. etc. is creating social mores where one’s social network helps to reinforce behaviors which minimize the terrible costs to society that stem from people not taking care of themselves.
Health care costs money and smoking is a completely unnecessary expense, as are things like Type 2 diabetes and liver cancer. If shaming people or behaviors helps reduce the incidence of any of those, I’m all for it, because people just aren’t going to do it on their own (obviously.)
That being said, there’s no reason to, for example, start yelling an obese person because they are having lunch or screaming at a lung cancer patient about smoking. Kind of pointless to yell at someone after they are already ill.
Keep the assumptions flowing, Lynne.
IL, But you don’t think that shaming people for being lonely is ok even though it is the greatest public health risk of them all?
interesting
On a side note, IL is illustrating one big reason why so many people fear single payer. That fear is that they will be denied health care if their illness can at all be traced to a lifestyle choice. Break your leg skiing. Denied. Get type two diabetes and have eaten too much sugar. Denied. Get lung cancer after smoking. Denied. Get hit by a car on your bike commute. Denied
We have to approach public health in a better way than shaming individuals
Please name on public health strategy is based on shaming people for being lonely.
That wouldn’t make any sense at all. Being lonely is not a behavior.
I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
You are right. Being lonely isn’t a behavior. I was being lazy and was using it as shorthand for failing to cultivate intimate relationships and also not engaging in social face-to-face interactions.
I was thinking of this TED talk
https://www.ted.com/talks/susan_pinker_the_secret_to_living_longer_may_be_your_social_life?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_content=talk&utm_term=science
I generally dont think shaming individuals works well as a public health approach. Mostly because it takes a pretty significant number of people to affect the group dynamic enough to get people to change their behavior at all and even when they DO change their behavior, it usually is just to hide it. And it makes people feel bad which is why it is a dick move.
so not effective
dick move
Well, it has worked pretty well.
Smoking is now mostly unacceptable. Shaming people for smoking (particularly when young) is not a “dick move.”
Smoking is a “dick move.”
Similarly, shaming people for shitting outside works pretty well, because shitting outside is bad for everyone.
I just came here to talk about porn. What’s wrong with you people?
But my shaming you for engaging in shaming isnt changing your behavior. Why?
Since shaming impairs social relationships, it may be more harmful than it is good. It is really unkind. In cases where there is an addiction as part of the behavior in can be counterproductive because it really does harm social bonds and increase stress in ways that actually increase the behavior.
Again, I will say that changing systems seems like it would be a better approach. In that spirit, I find myself encouraging people I know to resist it. If there were a problem with people pooping in the street, like there is in San Francisco, I wouldn’t want to rely on shaming but rather would look to improving systems. Why are people pooping in the street? Lack of access to clean toilets maybe. Wouldnt finding a way to improve access to public toilets be the more effective method? And in a larger sense wouldn’t changing the systems that result in huge homeless populations be better than shaming?
Ever stepped in a pile of someone’s shit?
What “systems?” I have no idea what you mean by “systems.”
“Systems” don’t make people have unprotected sex or smoke tobacco or careen drunk through the streets.
Or shit in the open.
Ever stepped in a pile of someone’s shit? Well I have.
There’s a comedian on Live From Here who always uses that set up.
I’m feeling kind of ashamed for contributing to this thread.
I won’t do it anymore. I promise.
Stepping in shit sucks.
IL, I have stepped in shit but admittedly have never bothered to determine its source.
What I mean by systems are the everyday infrastructure of our lives.
So lets talk about smoking. I agree that reducing or eliminating smoking is a desirable goal. So what are the systemic things that contribute to smoking.
1. Accessibility. Changing the systems of access can include prohibition (total or for segments of the population like minors, Id requirements, regulations of where and how it is sold, taxation, etc All of those things make tobacco less accessible.
2. Ease of use. If you restrict where the product can be consumed such as indoor smoking bans, public place bans etc, it adds a cost to smoking.
3. Stress and mental health – Like it or not, nicotine is a powerful and effective drug for stress management. It helps with anxiety too and other mental disorders. I can personally say that smoking has been *good* for my health because on more than one occasion, after deciding to kill myself, I always decided to have just one last cigarette and each time I pretty much changed my mind after the first puff as the nicotine hit my brain.
So getting people better access to mental health care and working to help them deal with the stigma of that
None of that involves smug people fake coughing or tut tutting on the street or side eyes or any number of other subtle things people do to shame smokers.
Yeah, you do all that and call people out for smoking in public spaces.
Because it costs us a lot of money, causes a lot of human suffering in people who don’t smoke, and causes kids to smoke, too, impacting future generations.
The feelings of a few smokers pales to the damage it causes to society.
Having grown up in a smoking household, I feel zero sympathy to smokers. Absolutely none.
Fuck those people.
Ok. It still wont work. It does nothing. I don’t smoke for my own reasons but you wouldn’t shame me into quitting if I did. Because I don’t value your opinion.
Granted that is something I had to learn. Shaming never altered my behavior in the way the shamers intended. It had an effect but opposite of their intent because it upset me into yo-yo dieting shame eating, both behaviors which were worse for my health than the behaviors I was originally being shamed about. Shaming isnt just not effective. It is harmful.
Luckily I learned that I don’t need to value everyone’s opinions. Just those who I care about and other than my family, I can choose who I care about.
I also learned that people are often more concerned about feeling superior than about anyone’s actual health or behavior. Concern Trolling is a thing. It is about control a lot of the time too. And trust me reverse shaming doesnt work either except to validate and support those who are the victims of such bullying and cruelty. When I engage in the behavior it is usually about losing any feelings of inferiority that might have popped up and about regaining control of a group situation. I have no concern about your feelings and no expectation that you will change your behavior to stop shaming anyone. It never alters the troll’s behavior. never. And yes, even in my case it is about feeling superior. I mean, I might eat a McDonald’s hamburger but at least I am not being a dick about what other people eat. See how that works?
Friends, stop quarreling and meditate upstream to amber days of yore (which I know Mark Maynard, Jean Henry, and Iron Lung all remember well), when 50 cents would get you a grilled cheese sandwich, and another 50 cents got a bowl of soup, at Iron Lung’s all-time favorite cafe, Drake’s. Now drift across the way through Nickel’s Arcade, to the street named for Mark’s ancestors, where the grandest palace ever designed by McDonald’s served 50 cent cheese burgers and charged 50 cents for a small order of fries. What beautiful symmetry. You remember, don’t you? Those were golden years, my friends. Of course nothing remains of Drake’s except fond memories, and I challenge anyone to find a cheese sandwich and bowl of soup in Ann Arbor, or even Ypsilanti, for less than $6 today. Now hold that in mind and consider that although not even rubble remains of the fabled McDonald’s palace on Maynard, its spirit still lives on in every McDonald’s restaurant world-wide, where a 390 calorie McDouble, so-named because it has double the ground beef patties as the entry-level cheeseburger, and a 230 calorie small fries, can be had for $2.50. That, my friends, is enduring value that has stood the test of time. That’s what feeds American success. Does bourgeois Popeye’s offer a dollar chicken sandwich? No, but McDonald’s still does! I rest my case.
For those of you who might not understand, that’s $2.50 for both a McDouble AND small fries, not just one or the other. You get both! Better still, you can choose to have 2 McDoubles for the same $2.50, or two small fries if you prefer.
“What systems?”
Are suggesting the best system for addressing public health is a small army of shamers?
I am picturing you spreading the news about the “right and wrong way to live”, with a blow horn, on a street corner. Is that your system?
I remember a couple of years ago when Ann Arbor was going to hire some folks who would essentially travel around down town and shame the homeless for hanging out in public spaces.
Shaming clearly doesn’t work when an individuals objective/subjective surroundings do not allow for them to change. Addiction is clearly one of those conditions. For example I feel a certain “shame” whenever I spend money that supports the continues war machine. To change would probably result in some form of imprisonment, or some other form of negative consequence, unrelated to the behavior I am seeking to modify.
Changing the objective conditions which lead to the “negative” individual actions are far superior and actually leads to the changes in the social condition, rather than simply changing an individuals behavior.
Individuals can make choices, society builds the framework in which those choices are make. Change society, you change peoples behavior.
I appreciate that McDonald’s and other fast food places provide places for people to hang out.
I loved Drake’s, and spent most of my college days there, knew a lot of the staff, even helped make a film there, but they treated staff like crap. And the food was crap,but at least it wouldn’t clog your arteries and had some nominal nutrient value.
When food is that cheap you know somewhere along the line someone got fucked.
If you’re ok with that Mr. Hick, because you’re a man of the people, so be it. I don’t care where you eat.
FF You are being stupid. Public Health is IL’s field. Maybe try to not tell him what he means.
I am not sure I am being stupid, I am sure, however, that I am confused, as I try to follow what IL could possibly mean when he said “what systems?” in a conversation about people using public streets as a toilet. Gee I don’t know what systems might exist to help to prevent people using the street that way. Maybe a system of public restrooms?
Appeal to authority, Jean.
I know what IL did for a living. Maybe there is a reason he is unemployed? He doesn’t seem to be making sense to me. So, I ask, what did you mean when you said “what systems”? Very puzzling comment.
Is the conversation about using streets as a public toilet? I thought she was talking about smoking and obesity and making people feel bad.
I was talking about people shitting outside, anywhere in the world, not just in the city, but that was a sidebar. Sure, people have to shit outside in Ypsi because there’s not a public toilet… but “systems” (whatever that is) aren’t making people smoke.
OK, so maybe I’m unemployed because I don’t understand what someone on a blog from a tiny Midwestern town is talking about.
You got me. That explains it all.
“Are suggesting the best system for addressing public health is a small army of shamers?
I am picturing you spreading the news about the “right and wrong way to live”, with a blow horn, on a street corner. Is that your system?”
It would be nice. Billboards, TV ads, targeted campaigns at kids and pregnant women have been the traditional approaches. Some countries put gory pictures on cigarette packs both to scare people and to make smoking less sexy.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Oh, maybe that’s why I’m unemployed.
“I remember a couple of years ago when Ann Arbor was going to hire some folks who would essentially travel around down town and shame the homeless for hanging out in public spaces.”
Again, is being homeless a behavior? That’s akin to people screaming at obese people because they are eating their lunch. They are already sick, what’s the point?
Making smokers feel uncomfortable is completely different.
” Of course nothing remains of Drake’s except fond memories, and I challenge anyone to find a cheese sandwich and bowl of soup in Ann Arbor, or even Ypsilanti, for less than $6 today. ”
Drakes was a terrible place to eat. I got $.15 bagels from State Discount. Regardless, inflation. Life is just more expensive everywhere. Wages are the problem.
$.15 for a bagel? How old are you people?
IL – you’ll like this. People who are skeptical about Trumps health report are called – girthers- they want him to step on a scale on TV. Ha-ha.
https://www.dangerous.com/40367/girthers-demand-trump-weighed-live-national-television/
You seem to want to deny the existence of systems designed to influence behavior.
That’s fucking weird.
I am a girther. Dude is ONE POUND shy of obesity.
Careful FF you’re becoming HW. Take some deep breathes.
Shitty wages are absolutely the problem. Earlier some one mentioned McDonalds was paying $10 an hour. I remember negotiating our union contract in 1n 1988-89 and the McDonalds on Maynard was offering $10 an hour. We used that as one of our arguments for getting $12. In 25 years wages have stagnated. They are only paying 14-15 starting at the auto parts plants. They paid that a quarter century ago. Neo-liberal economics at work.
Seriously didn’t DAY disband because of a split between the Trotskyists and the Leninist? It’s a shame though because Water St. would’ve been a great site for an eastern bloc style cinder block housing complex.
DAY liked shaming, with memes. That poor Mayor.
We did have a Cadillac Blue Cross/Blue Shield health plan. Much better than what I had as a state employee a decade later, and much much better than what we get today. Nobody has those today except the most privileged sycophants of the system.
“You seem to want to deny the existence of systems designed to influence behavior.
That’s fucking weird.”
No, Ms. Lynne keeps throwing around this term “systems” without explaining what that means. I don’t think that she even knows what she means, which is fine. This is a local blog, not a science journal.
“We did have a Cadillac Blue Cross/Blue Shield health plan. Much better than what I had as a state employee a decade later, and much much better than what we get today. Nobody has those today except the most privileged sycophants of the system.”
In my nearly 50 years of being alive I have only had health insurance for 4 of them. Most poor people don’t even get 4 unless they are privileged enough to be able to or savvy enough to navigate medicaid.
You were lucky.
“I am a girther.”
Where I come from, we have a name for that. You’re what we call a Size Queen.
Time for IL to change names!
IL is not familiar with the term.
Fair, so I’m stupid. It’s not like I wouldn’t be the only stupid person that comments on this blog.
That must explain why I’m unemployed, because I’m stupid.
I know what “systems” mean, IL You are apparently the one who doesnt so let me help
sys·tem
ˈsistəm/Submit
noun
a set of connected things or parts forming a complex whole, in particular.
a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.
plural noun: systems
“the state railroad system”
synonyms: structure, organization, arrangement, complex, network; informalsetup
“a system of canals”
Gosh FF, why do you have to be so mean? I think you owe IL an apology!
Another take on de system.
https://youtu.be/spOoeLvYKxY
Girthers are the moral equivalent of slut shamers, imho
I don’t often agree with wobblie but he is correct that low wages are absolutely part of the system that leads to behaviors such as eating at McDonald’s. It is behind a lot of other ills too. Alcoholism, smoking, etc. A better public health approach would be to adopt a meaningful universal basic income. That would actually do something positive rather than shaming.
I have given this some thought. The other thing, besides valuing the opinion of the shamer, that is important is that the person being shamed actually has to buy into the idea that the behavior is something they should be ashamed of. It reminds me of those old “this is your brain on drugs” ads. I remember how much my friends and I laughed at them. Sometimes someone would say something like “I want my brain to be bacon and eggs, let’s go get some drugs”. I don’t know about the teenagers today but I know that among my Gen X peers, it was literally impossible for old adults to shame us about anything unless we could be convinced it was wrong.
On a side note, I worked at that McDonald’s on Maynard in 1986 and got paid minimum wage (which I think was $3.35/hr iirc).
I was surprised to learn recently that Charles Murray ( The Bell Curve) is a big proponent of UBI . Strange bedfellow Lynne.
http://www.aei.org/publication/a-guaranteed-income-for-every-american/
I know what the word system means, but I am unsure as to what Lynne means when she uses the word in such an ambiguous manner.
Without referring to the specifics of the “system,” the word is wholly meaningless.
Teenagers often like to blame “the system” for their perceived plight. But what, really, does that even mean? Should a smoker who blame “the system” for his or her habit?
It’s fine to discuss systemic factors which predispose people to have problems, but without referring to what those factors are in a specific manner, the discussion is just a lot of meaningless waving of hands.
To her credit, Lynne might be trying to avoid “blaming the victim” by shifting blame to an ambiguous “system,” but smokers are hardly victims.
Ambiguity and a loose choice of words are to be expected on a small blog in a tiny Midwestern town. Which is fine.
Re: “It would be nice. Billboards, TV ads, targeted campaigns at kids and pregnant women have been the traditional approaches. Some countries put gory pictures on cigarette packs both to scare people and to make smoking less sexy.”
Do those things work? How many are about shaming rather than providing people with information? I mean, it isn’t shaming someone to tell them about the harmful effects of smoking. Those are real. They are convincing. They don’t involve shame. Gory pictures are a bit more obnoxious but also do not involve shame. They are a visual reminder of very real effects.
Is shaming someone for an addiction on par with shaming them for a mental illness? Seems so. You can probably shame people for second hand smoke effectively because while a person’s smoking habit is no one else’s business, second hand smoke becomes other people’s business. It is possible to shame people into not imposing their smoking on others because most people actually consider it shameful to harm other people. But that is different than trying to shame someone for the smoking itself.
IL, I have given several examples of things I find systemic in terms of smoking. I cannot help it if you are too closed minded to accept them.
“Girthers are the moral equivalent of slut shamers, imho”
Donald Trump is obese. It is dangerous to have a head of state who is at risk for, say, a sudden heart attack. It is valid for people to be concerned and also valid to be concerned that he has altered the results of his medical report to show otherwise.
Donald Trump’s diet, given his obese state, is also fair game as it indicates that he is unconcerned with maintaining his health, putting the country at an unnecessary risk. He is irresponsible.
Donald Trump is a head of state. He gets held to a higher standard than a regular citizen.
Sad, yes. UBI is something that has been endorsed by a LOT of economists with all kinds of different ideology. Milton Friedman was in favor of a negative income tax. Friedrich Hayek wrote about it but IIRC without specific method of providing it. So even the most neoliberal of neoliberal economists are in favor of it. The left wing economists love it too. Krugman is in favor of it. It has a broad appeal to those who have been trained in the field.
The hard part is selling it to a population where people have been shamed a LOT for their poverty to the point where most people in this country, including the poor, believe that those who are poor deserve to be poor and that they are poor because of their individual choices and not systems that keep them in poverty. An example of how shaming can be very harmful.
.
Of course you know what the word “system” means, IL! So does Lynne! And Lynne obviously does not fit the image you have conjured—of a teenager who talks about “the system dude” as she waits for her turn to hit the bong again. Holy Jesus!
Way to justify your bigotry there, IL. You are no better than our president there.
Just think about the correlation between wealth and health outcomes. Should we shame the poor for being poor to get them to be richer and therefore healthier?
P.S what was Hliiaries BMI?
“Way to justify your bigotry there, IL. You are no better than our president there.”
Bigotry…. against who or what exactly?
You sound bigoted against fat people. And trust me, I know first hand how common it is in our culture.
Umm… no.
““Girthers are the moral equivalent of slut shamers, imho”
Donald Trump is obese. It is dangerous to have a head of state who is at risk for, say, a sudden heart attack. It is valid for people to be concerned and also valid to be concerned that he has altered the results of his medical report to show otherwise.
Donald Trump’s diet, given his obese state, is also fair game as it indicates that he is unconcerned with maintaining his health, putting the country at an unnecessary risk. He is irresponsible.
Donald Trump is a head of state. He gets held to a higher standard than a regular citizen.”
Read this again. In what way, does this imply I have a problem with obese people.
Just explain that to me.
Lynne, we may have been using the $10 an hour as propaganda leverage during negotiations. They were probably paying the managers that amount, not the part-time students. In any event wages have done nothing but stagnate over the last 25 years. What they pay at Fauricea in Saline today, is approx. the $14. You will find some who make significantly more (grandfathered in when taken over from Ford). In addition full-time permanent work is being replaced by temporary and on-call work. Thus the need to have multiply jobs. We don’t use the term much here, but Europeans refer the folks caught in this economic situation as the precariat.
By the way that same contract was the first in the nation to prohibit discrimination because of AIDS, or physical characteristics.
Ypsilanti’s anit-discrimination ordinance was passed not too many years later also prohibiting discrimination on the basis of weight.
Yes, IL, I am completely familiar with the concern trolling over health people engage in when they are justifying their bigotry towards a fat person. I am very familiar with how people judge and shame fat people for their diets. The whole “he is head of state” is a new angle but you know what, even there, I don’t agree that his diet is any of your business.
You clearly DO have issues with fat people if think being fat makes one unqualified to be president.
“If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man’s life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.”
― Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, The Complete Works of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
This is making me ….Sad.
Meanwhile, in the real world….. Trump to introduce new rule protecting health workers who refuse to perform abortions, treat trans patients: http://hill.cm/Fmd5QRv
wobblie, oh yes. There is a real problem. I was just reading a study that suggests that the issue is that we are moving towards a more monosopy labor market. An oligopsony? There are lots of reasons actually. Some of it stems from Reagan administration policies and in 30 years, if we can’t change this most recent tax changes, we will be feeling the effects of it deeply.
Unions have done a lot of good which is why the right is so against them. Michigan is the ONLY state where there is employment protection for body size. It is terrible!
I have a problem with people who have chronic health problems that might lead to sudden catastrophic health events doing things like flying an airplane or being the President of the United States, yes, this is true.
I also thought Bernard Sanders was too old to be President (I still do). Do I have a problem with old people?
Everything the President of the United States does is our business.
I was a smoker for 30 years. Started when I was 15, same time as when I went to work. For me it was integral to the work experience. All the waiters, waitresses, busboys and kitchen help smoked. Going on a smoke break was a way to steal some time back. Gave you a chance to bullshit with co-workers. We could smoke any where but in front of the customers. Pall Mall non-filters were the preferred brand because you could leave them burning in the ash tray, go out onto the floor serve a customer and there would still be some left to take a hit when you got back. Single packs only cost .50 cents. Buy them by the carton and get them for .35. Education, shaming were not nearly as effective in getting people to quit as forcing them to pay $5 to $7 a pack. ie. Forcing us to confront the social cost of our addiction.
A lesson for corn syrup (one of the main causes of obesity), fossil fuels, meat etc.
“Education, shaming were not nearly as effective in getting people to quit as forcing them to pay $5 to $7 a pack. ie. Forcing us to confront the social cost of our addiction.”
True, but making smoking socially unacceptable helped allow policies to pass that raised the price of cigarettes. I doubt if prices rising to the equivalent of $7 a pack would have passed back in the 1950s.
Regardless, smoking is still more prevalent amongst the poor, bringing the utility of raising prices into question.
My personal opinion is that the change in social attitudes toward smoking was more effective in reducing smoking deaths than pricing, comparatively. You can always buy bags of tobacco and roll your own to save money (like some people do.)
oligopsony. Had to look that word up. Absolutely right. Remember the sign on I-94 that told you how many autos had been made year to-date? They got rid of that maybe 20 years ago. It was when the auto companies figured out they could make as much or more money selling fewer units at more money.
Instead of using the word shaming, what we are really talking about here is the work of building social consensus against a particular behavior that is damaging not just to the individual but also holds a social cost.
One must build social consensus (often through shaming the undesired behavior– whether smoking or greed or gluttony or racism) to create the necessary public will to change the system (whatever system insulates or promotes the undesired behavior).
That is the effort engaged fruitfully or not in this and every comments section ever.
So we can not raise the prices of cigarettes via taxation to reflect social costs until there is social consensus that it is an undesirable behavior. Similarly, we cant implement UBI until we build social consensus that economic inequality is a big enough problem with enough social cost to warrant the commitment to such a big change in the economic system. (And some of that work is effectively in shaming the rich)
Blaming the system without acknowledging the need for change (what is here being called shaming) is putting the cart before the horse. It’s easy to blame the system and harder to change it. We need social consensus to change it. Often blaming the system is used as an excuse to not effect change. The work of implementing change is much harder than bellyaching.
It sucks to be an individual who participates in behavior the social consensus abhors. Sometimes social consensus produces public good and sometimes it produces the opposite. I’m not saying either shaming or building social consensus is inherently good. That does not mean it doesn’t work. It does. And it works consistently.
There are however many intersections of interests in any movement for change (good or bad) and sometimes these factors are at odds with one another. So anti-smoking efforts and healthy eating initiatives will primarily benefit the wealthy and further exacerbate disparity of outcomes between the haves and have nots.
That does not mean such public health initiatives are inherently bad and should not be pursued. The necessity for economic systemic change is evident to most of us here lingering in the MM comments section. We have social consensus on that here, if not so much in the rest of the country. But that critical need does not ‘trump’ the value of building other kinds of social consensus.
If you personally participate in some behavior that social consensus is building against, that sucks. Which is why it works. And it does. And some people are made to feel like shit. The real question should not be whether or not it works, but whether or not it is producing enough social value to be worth the cost to individuals.
Sorry for holding forth in what is for sure a condescending manner, but, christ, this has been a frustrating thread with a whole lot of ill defined terms and overall shitty communication.
“Instead of using the word shaming, what we are really talking about here is the work of building social consensus against a particular behavior that is damaging not just to the individual but also holds a social cost.”
Well, yeah. I thought that was obvious. I guess not.
That makes a lot of sense, thanks Jean.
It is likely that neither the very rich nor the obese are primarily personally responsible for their circumstance. Most were born into it, in one way or another. And yet we hold them personally responsible for the social cost of their circumstance. Because it works to build momentum to change the system. It seems counter-intuitive, but– Have you met people? Do you know their work?
IL– All I did was consolidate your points in one place and change the language to something a bit less likely to trigger reaction.
I should be subject to as much blowback as you. We’ll see.
(I’m pretty sure for instance that someone will soon say the rich are responsible because they hold power while the obese are not. And yet some obese people do hold considerable power, like Trump.)
As an aside, I get called a bigot a lot, and it is always in the Ann Arbor/Ypsi area. Note that I never get called a bigot in the rest of the country or the world. Just here.
In America, it seems that people like to project their own problems, insecurities and anger on other people, and it also seems like people want to frame things into a nice package of bigotry, maybe because that’s what Americans are used to.
Honestly, I don’t think that a lot of Americans really understand what bigotry is. Some seem to believe that any statement which is perceived to be an attack on whatever part of themselves that is the source of their own insecurity is proof of bigotry. Simply mentioning that thing will cause one to be called out as a bigot. Very odd. No wonder you people drink so much and are all hooked on opiates and depression meds here.
Either way, I can’t help it. I am not a particularly pleasant person and not well liked by most people and that’s ok. So, whatever, if it makes people feel better, I am happy to be called a bigot but it’s far too easy. There are real bigots in the world (some comment on this site), for sure, but the knee jerk in the US now is to call people bigots for just about anything at all.
I find it interesting but unproductive. Bigotry is about labeling, but the antidote to bigotry and labeling isn’t more labeling. The trouble is that Americans in 2018 seem to believe it does.
End of aside.
I have been called a bigot by people from all political perspectives. I suspect that’s the case for you as well, IL. It’s always cause for some self-examination for me at least, but mostly it tells me which issues are critically important to that person. It demonstrates their lens. It’s not worth taking personally. We are a nation actively engaged in social change at all times and so shaming is always going to be part of that. If you have some independence of thought, you will be called a bigot by everyone at one time or another. I’d still rather be engaged in the slow painful process of creating democratic social change within a very diverse nation than be powerless to effect change. Every person I know who is effective in creating meaningful change is completely stressed out and often depressed (a bodily signal to slow down for a while). I’m know participatory democracy creates abundant stress, and diverts energy from more personal, every day pleasures. It also holds hope.
The tendency to label and categorize is human but problematic. I don’t think Americans are unique in that. I could be wrong. Such sorting is always self-limited. I find it bizarre that individualistic Americans are so attached to labels, especially self-labeling. But then it’s also bizarre that freedom of consumer choice and tremendous wealth leads most American to desire and/or buy exactly the same useless shit as a sign of social status. The mall is full of endless high priced versions of the same things. Blah.
I have no problems with being called a bigot. The rich cause poverty, and in general I hate them (I have met some individual rich folks who I forgive for their birth). Religion breeds intolerance, and in general I hate organized religion (though I have met a few ministers and priest and nuns who I have forgiven for there “calling”) it breeds intolerance . I ate scabs and will never forgive any of them. War mongers I also detest. Been called a bigot for my believes–screw em. I oppose all forms of restrictions on free speech, especially those that define “hate speech”. I want to be able to express my disdain for those who are anti-people.
If you want insight into what the US has become, read the comments section here.
http://www.vindy.com/news/2018/jan/17/youngstown-businessman-al-adi-in-custody/
Jean, I do appreciate your points there. I guess I agree that shaming does work sometimes and can be a useful tool. I have seen it a lot with body size discrimination. Shaming those who shame others for their body weight has been working. Shaming people for their bigotry against fat people also has its value, even if it is mostly to neutralize inappropriate shaming such as what IL is engaging in. And demanding that those who form our public health policy do so without engaging in harmful behaviors like shaming individuals for their choices is a good thing, imho. It doesn’t matter if it is diet shaming from the left or sexual conduct shaming from the right. They are equivalent.
One of the most valuable things about my personal experience with weight bigotry has been to see better what people in other marginalized groups experience. The denial when called out especially. I will just say that as a fat person myself I am in a MUCH better position to see fat bigotry in others and IL is really engaging in it. That is simply not ok. He should be ashamed. I dont’ expect that he is. But you are correct. It is about building consensus against certain behaviors. I hope to help build one where people are not made to feel ashamed for their body weight.
I also strongly feel that we have a huge bias as a culture about risky behaviors. Some are tolerated more than others to a very great degree.
Those were pretty fun in a way. Very polarized I would say. Pretty typical of comments on politicized issues, which almost all issues are. All the references to Lucasville very interesting. They all want to throw each other in there. My wife teaches in Mansfield where the old prison is one of the only tourist attractions. They use it occasionally for films. From the prisoners I have known, Lucasville is quit the pit. They have had numerous strikes over the years.
I will note too that it is possible to take a public health approach that doesn’t involve shaming people for their individual behaviors. The most successful public health initiative that I can think of that has done that is the reduction of automobile deaths. That was achieved entirely to changes in the system (seat belts, air bags, crumple zones, better roads, etc) and never once did I see anything where people were shamed for not driving well except in the case of drunk driving but even then a lot of what I saw was simply giving people information about how harmful it is rather than some sustained campaign of shaming individuals.
Dealing with smoking by shaming those who smoke, eat bad diets, etc would be like dealing with AIDS by shaming men for having sex with other men. Not acceptable.
Lynne– Thanks for listening. And FWIW I think that America is really fucked up about food at every level. Dieting is really unhealthy and doesn’t work (v just changing ones long term habits slowly over time to become more healthful). Losing weight and sustaining that loss is almost impossible for many. Dietary guidelines are screwy. Our entire relationship to food is very puritanical and unhealthy. It’s very easy to see the difference when living in other countries (at any economic level) in which eating is pleasurable and not virtue signaling.
But even those countries are being invaded by American cheap and fast and unhealthy corporate food chains and habits. And it’s taking a toll on their health. And that is not about classism but about predatory corporate practices that maximize profits at great cost to the public good.
Lynne– I would also add that making assumptions about IL’s relationship to food and obesity is no better than someone else making assumptions about yours. Which I do not believe anyone has done here. Although you certainly believed they did.
And here we go……
Jean, I don’t disagree with that at all.
But if the problem is predatory corporate practices, why not address those more directly rather than trying to make people feel ashamed for their consumer choices. This isn’t limited to food but it gets super personal when it is about food. Food being something as personal as sex. Trying to change those kinds of intimate choices with shaming isn’t very effective. And in my experience with weight and diet it can be really harmful. Camryn Manheim wrote a great bit in her book about weight shaming led directly to abuse of amphetamines in her case. The shaming and then the subsequent praise for being “healthy” by losing weight even though she was losing weight in an especially unhealthy way.
FWIW, it is the virtue signaling that I find classist. Not people pointing out the ways in which large corporations prey on people. There again, I would like to see a macro-economic system that strongly favors small businesses over large ones. Giving someone a side eye because you see them walking out of a McDonalds seems useless and potentially harmful.
You are right about other countries and their relationship with food. I have experienced it. I have wondered how my own body would be different had I been in a different country with a different culture. I have often wondered if I would be thinner if I had not dealt with weight shaming in very unhealthy ways in my late teens and early twenties. Turns out that weight shaming specifically tends to lead people to engage in behaviors which make them less healthy and fatter. Mostly yo-yo dieting, drug use, and the development of stress related eating disorders.
JH, I am not making a single assumption about IL’s relationship to food or obesity. I am responding to the prejudice he is expressing here only.
“JH, I am not making a single assumption about IL’s relationship to food or obesity. ”
But you did.
“except in the case of drunk driving but even then a lot of what I saw was simply giving people information about how harmful it is rather than some sustained campaign of shaming individuals.”
Mug shots online? Name in the newspaper?
That’s public shaming. Given how dangerous drunk driving is, it’s not a bad thing.
I’m now going to try a Trumpian tactic to divert you from this painful thread. Porn!Nuclear attack! I could try to relate it to what Lynne said about criticism of personal choices like food and sex being difficult territory, but that would be a stretch. It is filed under health and medicine… It is what it is. This made me happy. We are a puritanical nation with a great love of sex. Or it could just be some bizarre firing of the biological imperative impulse. One things seems clear, cockroaches and porn will outlast most other signs of life on earth. They will be with us to the very end. (And I hope IL will not magic kill this thing with by exposing some data bull-shittery). Please discuss.
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/after-missile-alert-confirmed-as-false-alarm-this-is-how-hawaii-celebrated/
IL the only assumption about you I have made is that you mean what you say. That the cruelty you exhibit is genuine.
oh well…
“IL the only assumption about you I have made is that you mean what you say. That the cruelty you exhibit is genuine.”
I admit I am a horrible, horrible human being, but I don’t at all care about peoples’ weight.
You seem to think that fat people are not good enough to be president. I would call that caring about people’s weight.
Look. I just think shaming people for their mental health issues is cruel. Smoking, Drinking, substance abuse, etc are addictions. Eating disorders are super common. We shame people so much for such things and it is wrong.
“You seem to think that fat people are not good enough to be president. I would call that caring about people’s weight.”
No, I think that people with chronic health issues shouldn’t be President. I also don’t want them flying passenger airplanes. Obesity is, in fact, a chronic health problem that increases one’s risk for life threatening health events.
That Donald Trump takes no effort at all to minimize his risk now that he is in office is irresponsible. If he weren’t President, I would not care. By he is the President of the United States.
To be fair though, his chronic health problems are the least of our problems.
I grew up in a family of smokers, drug addicts and drunks. Most of them are dead.
While I am empathetic, I am not sympathetic. If that makes me cruel, so be it.
“Look. I just think shaming people for their mental health issues is cruel.”
“do you think being an anti-social grump is good for your health? Ok Ok, I don’t know you irl. I hope that the lonely persona you project here is not the person you really are. You know why? Not having close relationships is bad for you. And even worse is a lack of just small talk with the everyday people in your life. You don’t strike me as someone who is particularly chatty though. I hope I am wrong.”
Re: ” Obesity is, in fact, a chronic health problem that increases one’s risk for life threatening health events.”
It is not a health problem that is so severe that it makes one unable to do important jobs. That is prejudice and a harmful prejudice at that. It is why fat people are discriminated against in the job market. It is as bad as other forms of prejudice and is similar to me as when people say that women can’t do important jobs because of their hormones.
JH, yes. I admit that it was a bad approach to try to make IL understand his cruelty by being similarly cruel . I don’t actually think that it is beneficial to make people feel ashamed for a lack of social engagement, even though as health risks go, it is a much greater one than obesity.
I also grew up in a family of smokers, drug addicts and drunks too. Lots of bad eating and diabetes too. Most of them are alive. Most of those who died lived well into their 80’s and some into their 90s. I am sorry that people you loved are gone and that might explain what seems like anger in your posts. It is still cruel to shame people for their mental health. It hurts people.
Smokers, alcoholics and drug addicts hurt people.
“It is not a health problem that is so severe that it makes one unable to do important jobs. That is prejudice and a harmful prejudice at that.”
He’s the President of the United States, not a factory line worker. People who have chronic health conditions or are too old should not be the President of the United States.
” I admit that it was a bad approach to try to make IL understand his cruelty by being similarly cruel ”
Good god. I don’t think I’m the one with problems here.
Please go back to talking about UBI and the robot future.
IL, sure. There are hurtful people in any group. When people are only hurting themselves, it is none of anyone else’s business. Even in Trump’s case, his death if he causes it will not hurt the country except in as much as Pense might be a more effective executive.
RE “People who have chronic health conditions or are too old should not be the President of the United States.”
I believe you that you feel that way. I just dont see it as much different than when people say that people with black skin should not be president. Both sentiments are rooted more in prejudice than in any real danger that the trait might cause harm.
All we know about the president’s heath is that his well respected doctor has proclaimed him healthy, that he is fat, doesn’t exercise, eats highly processed food, never smoked, and doesn’t drink. Oh and that he is wealthy which is something working in his favor. Some people though have a huge prejudice about obesity and the impact of diet and exercise that they just cant believe that Trump could actually be healthy. That leads them to conclude that this doctor, who has gone to medical school and actually examined him, cannot have a better idea of his health status than they do. People are dismissing the doctor because his conclusions of Trump’s health are in opposition to their prejudices about obesity, diet, and exercise.
“I believe you that you feel that way. I just dont see it as much different than when people say that people with black skin should not be president. Both sentiments are rooted more in prejudice than in any real danger that the trait might cause harm.”
Oh good god.
Franklin Roosevelt polio, John F. Kennedy Addison’s disease, Woodrow Wilson incapacitating stroke, Grover Cleveland Cancer, William Howard Taft carried well more than 300 pounds on his frame, Dwight Eisenhower had a heart attack in his second term, Ronald Reagan was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease in 1994 and there was speculation that it started while in office.
Why don’t we split the difference and have a robot president?
“Franklin Roosevelt polio, John F. Kennedy Addison’s disease, Woodrow Wilson incapacitating stroke, Grover Cleveland Cancer, William Howard Taft carried well more than 300 pounds on his frame, Dwight Eisenhower had a heart attack in his second term, Ronald Reagan was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease in 1994 and there was speculation that it started while in office.”
Just because it happened, doesn’t mean it was a good idea. I don’t think it is a good idea. But that’s just men.
ME!
Not men.
Honestly, the idea of a slightly functional President Pence is more revolting that Donald Trump’s dysfunction.
Lynne– “RE “People who have chronic health conditions or are too old should not be the President of the United States.”I just dont see it as much different than when people say that people with black skin should not be president. Both sentiments are rooted more in prejudice than in any real danger that the trait might cause harm.”
Here is the difference. Race is made up. It means nothing and has no meaningful consequences for health outside of cultural factors. Age and obesity and other factors that impact the health of a President are legitimate.
I understand that overweight and older people face bias. (I have experienced limited but blatant versions of both, and I’m neither especially fat nor old.) No one here is denying it. You are however undermining your argument when you insist it’s always bias. Living with oppression can create understandable paranoia among the oppressed.
“What’s a Black man in America without his paranoia?”– Dave Chappelle
I’m not sure why you are making such facetious arguments to prove someone is expressing bias against you. If IL is not biased against obese people, that does not mean cultural bias does not exist. He has said as much.
Just stop. You are digging yourself a hell of a rethorical pit.
Thttps://youtu.be/GLsCR2RMBak
?
https://youtu.be/GLsCR2RMBak
I tried to be clear by also pointing out that people with chronic health conditions that increase their risk for sudden catastrophic health events also shouldn’t fly passenger airplanes.
I also pointed out that being the President is not like being a factory line worker.
I also mentioned that I though Bernard Sanders was tool old to be President, and pointed out that that did not imply I had something against old people.
I don’t know what else I can do here.
Ms. Lynne’s problems are her own.
I recognize that people who are obese face discrimination in hiring. In general, I strongly oppose discriminating against people because of their weight or preexisting health conditions.
But certain occupations must maintain health and safety standards to minimize risk of negative impacts to others (like people sitting in a large aircraft, as an example.)
I don’t think recognizing that makes me a bigot, but if it makes you feel better, go ahead.
IL, you sure you didn’t really mean “Its just men”.
Everyone of the Presidents mentioned kept their health problems as secret as they could. Most were heavy smokers but you can hardly find a video of them smoking. Most were also heavy drinkers. We have tapes of Nixon’s drunken rants. I believe Obama was (is ?) a smoker, and we know he drinks (how much). More than a few were addicted to sex with folks other than wife.
It is still legal in most places to discriminate against the obese, the short and the bald. The short fat bald man is still one of the comics best punching bags. The single best determinate of which of the two candidates we get to chose from for President (holds true for most higher elected offices) is which one is taller.
guess what I look like
Moreover, I pointed out (three times, in fact) that screaming at an obese person because they are eating lunch is just pointless. It makes sense to make behaviors socially unacceptable to prevent them.
It doesn’t make sense to chide someone who is already sick.
I recognize that Ms. Lynne likely has a personal axe to grind regarding this issue. But it is unfair to suggest that I have some implicit bias against obesity. In fact, I would like to see less people become obese, not because they are an eyesore, but because I prefer that people live health lives.
Further, I am not an idiot. I recognize that not all obesity can be traced to individual behaviors. There are a variety of physiological reasons that a person becomes obese. I also recognize that obesity is not a simple problem.
That being said, if shaming parents (through whatever means) for feeding their kids shitty food keeps kids from becoming obese in childhood (insuring that they will be obese in adulthood), I am all for it.
But go ahead, if it helps to quell your personal anger and resentment, by all means, use anonymous posters on a local blog as a punching bag for a while.
“IL, you sure you didn’t really mean “Its just men”.
Everyone of the Presidents mentioned kept their health problems as secret as they could. Most were heavy smokers but you can hardly find a video of them smoking. Most were also heavy drinkers. We have tapes of Nixon’s drunken rants. I believe Obama was (is ?) a smoker, and we know he drinks (how much). More than a few were addicted to sex with folks other than wife.”
Wobblie, the American people have the right to know every detail of a President’s life.
Starting in the primaries, even.
If would all just be fake news. We knew Trump was an egotistical narcisist who engaged in money laundering, philandering and regularly stiffed his creditors. Didn’t seem to matter. Do you really think if we also knew conclusively that he has heart disease it would have made a difference.
No, unfortunately.
It is absolutely disgusting the way JH and IL are justifying their bigotry towards me and people like me. You both can fuck off!
“It is absolutely disgusting the way JH and IL are justifying their bigotry towards me and people like me. You both can fuck off!”
This is just the funniest thing I’ve seen all day.
I don’t know anything about you besides that your name is Lynne and you like UBI.
First I was just a snotty classist liberal, now I’m full on bigoted towards the obese.
That worked out well.
I’ll add it to the list of names I’ve been called on social media. Nothing like an ad hominem attack as the last stand for an indefensible argument.
!!!
https://youtu.be/nvlTJrNJ5lA
I’ve been called a racist, but this is the first time I’ve ever been called a bigot against the obese.
Entertaining.
A lot of people’s prejudices come out more as they age.
You hate drunks, smokers and drug users and now we know, the obese.
You must have some interesting discussions with your colleagues who work in harm reduction.
This whole thing reminds me of one woman who also had to stand up to a not very nice man in respect to issues over weight.
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/02/11/hello-i-am-fat
You also don’t seem to fond of people who, how shall we say it, have a more imaginative understanding of our current political situation.
Who do you like?
I decided to search the word ‘hate’ on this thread. Two people used it directly. Lynne with regards to Trump and Wobblie with regards to the rich.
The Stranger piece is great but only affirms what IL said. The writer is not talking about the President.
I’m sure we all have better things to do than revisit this further.
Ha ha! Jean Henry, you classist, Popeye’s-loving, liberal snob, will you please stop searching for hate in all the wrong places?
Iron Lung, you don’t have to be a horrible human being if you don’t want to. I, for one, would still admire you if you were less horrible.
OK – hate was the wrong word- dislike? But I’m serious, what do you say to the harm reduction people?
At risk of reviving a dead horse to it can be beaten some more, I’m disappointed Hyborian Warlord hasn’t weighed in on the topic of McDonald’s.
Me too. I’d love the link to the song he might post.
I’m sick. I have bronchitis. Maybe it’s pneumonia. I just had chest x-rays taken… Anyway, I’m coughing a lot. And I’m not sure what to do about this thread, which seems to have gotten out of hand. It makes me unhappy to see people here fighting, and getting their feelings hurt. At the same time, tough, I think this conversation hits on a lot of important things. Weight, public health, fat shaming, fast food and the Trump presidency… there’s a lot to unwind here. Maybe it deserves a post of its own. I’m just not sure how to go about it.
Sorry to hear you’re sick. I hope you feel better soon.
I feel responsible for this horrible thread as I was the first one to comment. I knew that bringing up James Franco would lead to a spiral of nonsense but I did it anyways, and I’m truly sorry.
P.S. If anyone tries to blame you for your illness, because of your diet, sleep habits, stress level etc. Tell them to fuck off. Shit happens .
I just discovered that 140 pounds would be considered healthy for my height.
As apparent as it is that people insist on misreading posts in order to inject their own meaning into them, I would really hope you would not do anything to further this fiasco. It seems unlikely going over the points again will do anything to soothe feelings or bring clarity. People want to believe what they want to believe despite evidence to the contrary. Especially if it is virtue signaling. (SAD, your glib attitude here does not place you outside the range of anything of which you accuse others.) I travelled widely and moved far away from where I grew up to escape such moralistic nonsense. It did not work. Confirmation bias is unfortunately a well-documented fact of human perception. Choose to believe it or not.
Once I learned about confirmation bias, I saw it everywhere.
That’s a joke. Also true.
I’m sorry you are unwell, Mark. There’s a lot going around. Ignore this painful and useless thread and take care of yourself.
Mark– ‘healthy’ weight guidelines are notoriously unreliable. I’m well over my ‘healthy weight’ and my Doctor always congratulates me for it. Most people with my chronic condition are perilously thin, and some excess weight is protective in case things go, well, badly for me. This is increasingly so for everyone as we age. Most people have a baseline weight (which increases as we age) which the body will self-regulate to maintain. Diets just mess most people up.
On the other hand, I have friends whose weight must be reduced in order for them to receive necessary surgeries which will allow them to be more active. It’s easy to see the slippery slope. I have another friend, who upon getting a diabetes diagnosis, beat it through diet and exercise. He’s still very over weight but he’s heathy now. He doesn’t eat at places like McDonald’s anymore. And, no, you cant tell by looking at him.
We know the president has very unhealthy behaviors because we are, rightly, privy to them. His medical evaluation may bely that. I’m not sure I buy it. He could just be very lucky. Hard to trust the man or anything said about him coming from the Whitehouse.
I don’t think dieting or focusing on healthy target weights is useful or effective. We all know when and where we are healthy or not. There is a lot of obsession with food and weight in America. It’s evidence is everywhere. We are way out of balance. And, I believe, as a consequence, we are also more overweight and unhealthy than most other places, certainly most other wealthy places. Anorexia, orthorexia, over-eating, food trends, ‘nutraceuticals’, superfoods, imaginary allergies, fasts etc etc are all incredibly unhealthy and are all facets of the same very American weirdness around eating. There’s something very primal in us that gets super fucked up around food by our puritanical/moralistic/consumerist/rich/immediate gratification hooked/miserable culture.
Don’t feed the beast.
Just eat and enjoy yourself.
Apologies for the lecture. 30 years of watching people eat and talk about food in the industry demonstrated a lot to me about Americans and food. It’s very depressing. Takes all the pleasure out of what is otherwise a beautiful and necessary 3x a day kind of thing. My pet theory is that we are screwed up about food because we fail too often to experience pleasure in it, no matter what our relationship to it is.
The most durable treatment for morbid obesity is gastric reduction surgery, generally not covered well by health insurance. The weight loss is long lasting, but more importantly, indices of diabetes and cardiac disease are markedly improved. For thousands of years, humans have evolved to hold onto calories as fat because calories were hard to come by. Now calories are plentiful, so those tendencies are working against our best interests. It’s hard to overcome genetic programming in a few decades. Those of us that have “high metabolism” and are “naturally thin” would have starved in a famine in the past. New chronic stressors in modern life lead to persistently high levels of cortisol, which predisposes one to weight gain.
I dont hate people who are obese.
I also dont hate smokers. I do hate smoking.
I do have a low tolerance for addicts, but thats a personal problem. I do wish for addicts to stop using.
Thanks for clearing that up.
IL you really should read the Stranger piece as well as the Dan Savage response. It’s a total Deja vu to you and your friend here.
And no mention of James Franco.
And I was distressed and dismayed to see myself labeled as glib , when it’s obvious that I am facetious ( in addition to Sad)!
I have been very clear that I strongly oppose any form of discrimination against people who are obese. It just shouldn’t matter.
However, I don’t think that people with chronic health conditions should be President. I have no power to make laws to insure that. That is merely an opinion. It’s not that “fat people” should not be President, it’s that there are some chronic conditions that come with risks for sudden catastrophic health outcomes and given the particular nature of the Presidency, I think that his health should disqualify a candidate in the eyes of the voters.
Clearly other people do not agree.
But you are all insane if you think that asking for a President with lows risks for catastrophic health events somehow implies that I “hate fat people.” Do I hate people with high blood pressure? People over 70?
I was clear in saying that I opposed Bernard Sanders as a candidate because he would be 80 years old by the time his second term rolled around (aside from his poorly conceived policy suggestions.)
But, think what you like.
“He was so concerned with the eternal state of Miss Daniels’ soul that he scheduled some alone time with just the two of them, so he could share with her how Jesus Christ had changed his life and how He could also save her from her sins.”
Nearly choking up with tears, Bakker went on to explain how much he loves and looks up to Trump as a model saint.
“Our president even arranged through his attorney to give this woman $130,000 in an attempt to help rescue her from the destructive adult film industry and get her life back on track. What a man of God!”
http://babylonbee.com/news/trump-merely-sharing-gospel-porn-star-explains-jim-bakker/
I used to love watching Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker with my babysitter when I was a kid. Pretty sure we watched for different reasons. They were the most fabulous.
Trump’s attorney has admitted to paying Ms. Daniels $130,000. If she wasn’t being paid for her silence about an affair, what was she being paid for?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/02/14/trumps-lawyer-confirmed-the-stormy-daniels-payment-whats-conspicuously-absent-any-denial-that-trump-was-involved/
And what attorney pays $130,000 out of pocket for a client without getting reimbursed?
The Bakker article is satire.
Though, these days, it is hard to tell.
Yeah, IL, I caught that too late. Didn’t think anyone would be back here, so didn’t bother to correct.
I wish all of Jim and Tammy Bakker was satire.
Here, from Jake Tapper, is something that’s not satire.
“A manager for @StormyDaniels tells AP she “believes Trump’s lawyer invalidated a non-disclosure agreement by publicly discussing the payment” and thus she is now free to discuss alleged 2006 affair.”
I think we’re about to get a full account of the Trump penis.
I wonder if it has a Merkin comb over.
Keep your fingers crossed. It looks like Ms. Daniels may have a presidential dick pic.
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/971208489413545984
Rudy Giuliani just told Fox that Trump reimbursed Michael Cohen the $130,000 for the Stormy Daniels agreement.
Rudy Guliani also just told Fox News that if Ivanka is subpoenaed the whole country would turn on Mueller, because she’s a fine woman and his daughter and he ‘cant’ go after her. Jared, on the other hand, is a man and so, ‘disposable.’
He also called Comey a ‘pervert’ and a ‘pathological liar.”
Rudy fucked up in so many ways.
I can’t believe these old men hold power.
PS in what universe could the constitution be interpreted as giving the President freedom from prosecution and subpoena? The entire constitution is constructed to prevent tyranny.
That’s nuts. They’ve held power for so long, they don’t understand how anything works anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbqiCxEIeEo
It’s a complex plot orchestrated by McConnell. Once there is enough disgust about Trump by Trump supporters, coupled by a general sentiment of distaste, the Republicans will allow Trump to be removed, and so many people will be thankful enough that the rest of the Republican agenda will be quickly moved through Congress. We are not at that point yet. If you want to kill the king, you HAVE to kill the king.
In her upcoming memoir, Stormy Daniels provides this description of her night with Donald Trump: “I lay there, annoyed that I was getting fucked by a guy with Yeti pubes and a dick like the mushroom character in Mario Kart”
And now it time for our long distance dedication.
A listener writes,
“Dear Casey,
I, like hundreds or even thousands of other drug-addicted hookers and porn stars, have let Donald Trump fuck me in exchange for money. And like all of the others, I barely made it through the thankfully very short experience without losing my lunch.
I lay there, annoyed that I was getting fucked by a guy with Yeti pubes and a dick like the mushroom character in Mario Kart.
Could you play Dirty Old Man by The Three Degrees? …and dedicate it to our illustrious President and his devout Christian supporters.
Thank you,
Just one of many.”
Well, just one of many, thank you for your request and here is your long distance dedication…
…this is Dirty Old Man, performed by The Three Degrees…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M-t0onohp-A
Since she’s already been paid a decent salary, can we get Stormy to run the administration’s pandemic response. She couldn’t do worse anyway.
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