Our Electors vote to make Trump the President of the United States on Monday

As tomorrow is the day that our Electors meet to cast their votes for President, I know I should probably post something thoughtful here tonight, but, as I’ve written so damn much about the Electoral College over the past month, and the efforts to convince Republican Electors to cast their ballots for anyone other than Trump, I just don’t have much left to say. And, even if I did have something to say, I just don’t have the energy. The cold that I’ve been trying to evade these past few weeks has finally dragged me down like a virile young lion on a wounded wildebeest. So I won’t be going to Lansing tomorrow, as I’d intended, to stand outside the building where Michigan’s 16 Electors will be meeting to cast their ballots at 2:00 PM. Instead, I’ll probably just be laying here in bed, anxiously reading the news, looking for signs of an Electoral College coup. As I’ve said before, I don’t think it will happen, and I’m not convinced that it would yield a better result, even if it did, but I still can’t help but hold out hope that some of our Republicans Electors might choose to follow the example of Christopher Suprun and send a message against hate and corruption, despite the illegal threats being made by members the Trump camp. Personally, though, I’ve come to accept that most Republicans have come to the conclusion that, through Trump, regardless of how terrible he may be for the nation, they can get everything they’ve ever dreamed of, from the closing of public schools to the privatization of social security. So, even if 37 Electors turned “faithless” against Trump, and the task of picking our next President fell to the House of Representatives, I suspect they’d pick him anyway. But, until all of the votes are counted, I just can’t look away, and dream of better results.

If you’re interested to know more about what I think on the subject, here are a few links, followed by a video from last night’s Saturday Night Live. While I didn’t get the film references, I found it a fitting way to mark the end of this chapter in American history.

Now, on with the resistance.


Am I the only one who gets the sense that there’s an absolute war going on around the Electoral College?

Electors demand intelligence briefing before Electoral College vote

Who are our Electors who will choose our next President, what are the rules that constrain them, and how many are likely to go rogue against Trump?

Now that we know the Russians played a role in getting Trump elected, what are we going to do about it?

Trump calls into question the legitimacy of the election, claiming that millions of illegal votes were cast

Thank you, Mike Pence, for drawing my attention to Alexander Hamilton

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  1. Michael Moore last night
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:03 am | Permalink

    Dear Republican Electors:

    Ok, if you’ve read this far, knowing that it’s me, Michael Moore, writing to you — well, thank you for having an open mind and the willingness to listen to someone you don’t agree with.

    I am writing you not as a card-carrying Democrat (I’m not) who voted for Hillary (I did), but simply because I am an American who, like you, deeply loves this country and its people.

    Tomorrow is the day you are supposed to gather with your fellow electors and choose the next President of the United States. I am not going to ask you to vote for the person who got the most votes (although I will not be upset should you chose to side with the majority of your fellow Americans and do so!).

    No, I’m simply asking you to vote your conscience and PLEASE do not put our nation in danger by choosing Donald J. Trump.

    I know you HAVE to be full of worry and consternation over the way Russia hacked into our election in order to help Trump. Shouldn’t we all wait until the investigation ordered by the president is finished before the Electoral College votes? If Trump did know or was involved in this unprecedented assault on our electoral process, wouldn’t that be enough for you to exercise your constitutional power to stop a man like this from taking office?

    Or just the fact that he has refused to attend nearly all the daily national security briefings — doesn’t this give you some pause? Do we want a Commander-in-Chief who is too busy or too disinterested to protect us on a daily basis?

    Or how about the fact that Donald Trump bragged and admitted during the campaign that his people were in touch with the Russians? How much more do you need before you get a sick feeling about all of this?

    I think you know something is wrong with this man. He just doesn’t seem “right.” One crazy comment or action after another. He may not be well. Don’t you have a responsibility to protect us from someone who might be mentally unstable?

    I want you to know what the law says about what you can do tomorrow. Please check out these links: https://www.washingtonpost.com/…/0f431828-b0f7-11e6-8616-52… and http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed68.asp

    You have more power than you realize — and you have an American conscience I hope you will follow. Please consider there four points:

    1. Although it may ultimately have to be decided by the courts, right now you have the duty to do what you feel is right. One reason the founders set up the Electoral College was to make sure there was one final protection should someone who is a danger to the country slip through. We’ve established the national security danger that is Donald Trump and the possibility he had knowledge of the Russians hacking our election while it was taking place. If I were an elector for Hillary and learned she MIGHT have received helped from the Russians or the North Koreans or the Saudis, how do you think I’d be voting tomorrow? I assure you, it would not be for Hillary. You need to do the same thing.

    2. But some states have made it “illegal” for you to vote any other way than for Trump. If you don’t vote for him, your state will fine you $1,000. So here’s my offer to you: I obviously can’t and won’t give you money to vote tomorrow, but if you do vote your conscience and you are punished for it, I will personally step up pay your fine which is my legal right to do.

    3. If you are still worried about the legality of you voting your conscience and would like free legal advice and help, Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig has offered to be your lawyer. Contact him at: http://www.electorstrust.org/

    4. Trump, as I’m sure deep down in your heart you know, is never going to last the four years. He doesn’t care about the law or following the rules and this will eventually trip him up. You know how dangerous it is when any politician, Democrat or Republican, who’s a super narcissist is elected to office, they start making decisions that personally benefit themselves — and before you know it, they’re being hauled off to jail. Why not vote tomorrow for someone who’s going to finish her/his term? Why risk the volatile presence of Donald Trump in the White House — and help to guarantee another generation of Dems in the Oval Office?!

    Republican electors, you have a chance tomorrow to fix this, to make it right, for yourselves as Republicans and for the country. Please find the courage to seize this historic moment where you put country over party. Set an example to our young people that conscience supersedes politics, and that morality — yes, answering the quite legitimate question, “what would Jesus do?” — is still the most important consideration. You are bound to God and not to Vladimir Putin. Your loyalty is to your fellow Americans, the vast majority of whom didn’t vote for Donald J. Trump. But you won the Electoral College and so you get to decide. You can vote for the actual winner as decided by the American people, or you can pick another Republican who isn’t Trump.

    Why not choose a president who won’t try to please Moscow, someone who believes the threat of terrorism is real and demands to be briefed on it daily? Why not let history record your moment of true courage and patriotism? Only 38 of you have to stand up and say, “I love my country and I cannot in good conscience vote for a man who, whether he means to or not, may put our nation in jeopardy. I love my country more than I love this job as an elector.”

    Thank you for listening to my plea. I promise to return the favor someday. A lot more listening to each other, regardless of our political positions, could go a long way to truly making America great again.

    Most sincerely,
    Michael Moore

    P.S. Tonight, in front of most State Capitols, thousands of Americans will be participating in candlelight vigils hoping you will vote your conscience. http://www.vigilsforamerica.com Stop by and chat with them if you get the chance.

  2. The Monkey Power Trio
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    In these times, you gotta have hope.

  3. Anonymous
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    This Saturday Night Live bit with Trump, Putin and Tillerson was even better.


  4. Morbid Larson
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    Michael Moore unwittingly helped Trump’s campaign. Too little, too late.

    Watch my band instead.


  5. Meta
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    The Hill: “Electors won’t get intelligence briefing”

    Voters in the Electoral College will not receive an intelligence briefing about Russian meddling in the U.S. presidential election, according to a new report.

    Sources told NPR the electors would not receive any national intelligence before they cast ballots this Monday.

    Fifty-four of the 232 Democratic electors had signed a letter asking for a briefing before the Electoral College’s vote, according to reports.

    The letter asked Director of National Intelligence James Clapper for information on what role, if any, Russia had in helping elect Donald Trump.

    Read more:

  6. Robert Reich by proxy
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Electors are meeting today in state capitols to make a final decision on the next President of the United States. Despite Hillary Clinton’s unprecedented lead of nearly 3 million in the popular vote, Trump won the state-by-state electoral map – meaning that the majority (more than 270) electors are formally pledged to vote for him today.

    But they don’t have to, and should reject Trump because he’s (1) a divisive demagogue, (2) helped into office by a foreign power, and (3) grossly unqualified to assume the duties of the presidency – all grounds for electors to vote against him, according to writings by the framers of the Constitution.

    In an interview yesterday, Texas Republican elector Chris Suprun said he has received death threats since writing in the New York Times that he would not vote for Trump because he is unqualified to be president. Suprun also said several other electors have contacted him wondering what their options are, but he wasn’t sure how many would join him in voting against Trump.

    The Electoral College should be abolished. But as long as we still have it, electors have a constitutional duty to vote against Trump today.

  7. M
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    How is it that 55 electors signed a letter requesting a security briefing and yet weren’t given one? How is that not news?

  8. ytown
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Hey, let’s change the constitution because I’m sad. I didn’t get my way. It was rigged. I’m butt hurt. I’m a sore loser. The Russians did it. Etc….. Or you could suck it up and work together to help the country and your fellow Americans, but that would require that you actually swallow your pride. Probably too difficult for most of you.

  9. site admin
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    Livestream from several state houses:


  10. Lynne
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    ytown, no one wants to change the constitution in this case just because they are sad. It is entirely because we have a system where someone can get the most votes and not win because some votes are considered more valuable than others. People don’t like that we have such a rigged system so they want to change it. Luckily, a constitutional change is not necessary. It will be an uphill battle though for sure and one that will not even have a chance of success unless left leaning folks get out and vote in the midterms in 2018. Especially for state offices since that is where the change to voting laws needs to take place.

    The thing is that the system IS rigged. There is gerrymandering, the electoral college, voter ID laws, polling place issues, etc etc. All due to liberals being lazy in midterm elections too but my hope is that people will turn their butthurt into action so that in two years, we will have a more reasonable congress and more importantly more reasonable state legislatures and governorships.

  11. Jcp2
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 1:47 pm | Permalink


    Not what Trump signed up for.

  12. kjc
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    i recall your a lot of butt hurt from you during the obama years. you fake ass bullshitter.

  13. Taco Farts
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

    “butt hurt”
    “suck it up”

    Something about right wing nutjobs…

  14. Fake Ass Bullshitter
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    “Fake ass bullshitter” has a nice ring to it.

    Now it’s time to take your medicine and deal with Trump kjc.

  15. Fake Ass Bullshitter
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    taco farts,
    have you come out to your parents yet?

  16. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

    Hillary Clinton is far worse than Trump even on a personal behavior level, let alone her incredible corruption as a career politician. To believe otherwise you have to ignore large swaths of reality. She pressured Juanita Broaddrick to be quiet about her allegation of Bill Clinton’s vicious rape. She flew aboard convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein’s “Lolita Express” private jet six times according to FAA flight logs. She laughed about getting a man who she understood to be a child rapist acquitted. Is that really the kind of person you want? Trump might be distasteful but to advocate for a Clinton coup is awful.

  17. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

    Anyone who does not understand the movie reference is a very lucky person. Take my advice and do whatever it takes to make sure you never “get” the movie this skit is referencing. You are on the wrong life path if you ever watch that horrible movie.

  18. wobblie
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    The change in one public act would change everything. the Reapportionment Act of 1929 set the limit on the size of the House of Representatives. Having only 435 representatives in Congress has created the gerrymandering crises we currently have, and causes large urban states to have proportionally less representation than largely rural states. If we returned to the original intent of having a true House of Representatives, we should have well over a thousand perhaps more representatives. As a result the east and west coast would have substantially more representatives and a corresponding larger voice in the electoral college.
    What is so sacred about only 435 representatives–

  19. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 4:23 pm | Permalink

    California’s Motor Voter Law gives a driver’s license to illegal immigrants (estimated 2.8 million in CA) and registers them to vote. Is that cool do you think, MM? Potentially millions of votes cast by non-citizens of the USA in one state alone…Not only that but since getting the popular vote is not the name of the game Trump didn’t waste time and money campaigning in CA and NY. No doubt he would have picked up more votes in those states if he had. Not a word on the recount exposing that 37% of Detroit precincts had more votes reported than there were voters either. For example a box with 306 votes reported but only 50 inside. Something is rotten and it isn’t in Denmark.

  20. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    Another thing: didn’t Hillary and the DNC “affect the election” (destroy the by screwing Bernie voters? Don’t you want to know such a thing whether it is hacked by Russians or leaked by insiders? The way I see it that should have disqualified her as soon as it came out. I think the DNC “superdelegates” system should be thrown out. It is absolutely a violation of the will of the citizens of this country.

  21. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    *destroy the democratic process*

  22. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    Posts seem to be still awaiting moderation in a kafka-esque twilight. Not a Russian propagandist I promise. Native Ypsilantian here who probably lovingly ran sound for you and your friends long ago (can’t remember exactly because of doing it for so many local bands.)

  23. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 5:38 pm | Permalink

    Trump wins. It is official. So glad Hillary Clinton got flushed down the toilet!

  24. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Thank you for publishing my comments.

  25. Jean Henry
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 8:46 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if the right finds our perspectives as painfully boring and absurd as we do theirs? I suspect so. The disrespect is mutual, so really we should get along just fine. Haven’t all of us had a friend that was just a total bullshitter? And we could all laugh about it with them? And they at us? And move on. And have a beer or two… with people we disagree with on just about everything? And still work with like minded people on what is important to us? We’re pretty far away from that these days. (I know Trump is a monster, etc. etc, but we weren’t doing much better with any of the previous presidents either…)

    If we want to bring about progressive change, I don;t think it works to model ourselves after tyrants who only care about winning. We’ll never be as good at that as they are. It’s ok if they call informed people elite. Why should we care? Why do we care what people who deride informed opinion and expertise think about politics? I just don’t think it works to take it personally. It’s mostly straight white liberals who get all worked up (not entirely). Most of my queer friends and friends of color know how to get along with people who display bias. They have a lot more practice . At some point, we forgot how to agree to disagree. I think we need to relearn that. Or all this bullshit name calling and finger-wagging goes on forever. Like two people in a toxic relationship who just can’t compromise and can’t work it out and also can’t seem to live without one another.

    We need to work at a local and state level to get back to truly representative governance. We can keep protesting, screaming etc. But we don;t have to protest and scream AT people we disagree with. Again, we’ll never win that contest. Our strength is our humanity not our anger. We forgot how to lead with it. (Myself included) I’m going to try to get that back. I don’t see another way forward. I don’t think the left needs to, or ever could, win a biggest asshole competition with the right.

  26. kjc
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    Can’t we all just get along?

  27. Jean Henry
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

    I think I said agree to disagree. It’s kind of the basis for democracy. Where you can’t find compromise, you will just have to agree to disagree. Where you canc ompromise you get things done. Everyone is acting like it’s a winner take all scenario. It may have been a self-fulfilling prophecy. If that’s how it works out, it represents the destruction of American democracy. I can separate the leader from most of his supporters. I don;t think we have a chance in hell, if we don;t learn how to do that.
    None of this means compromising my aims in terms of social justice. It does however mean I fully understand the value of strategic incrementalism.

  28. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

    A good rule of thumb is to stick with the facts (all the facts) as much as we can. If we don’t know what is true or not then let’s hash it out with an attitude of going without fear wherever the truth leads us.

  29. Jean Henry
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    yep. Just the facts, Hyborian: http://www.snopes.com/california-motor-voter-act/

  30. Jean Henry
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    yep. Just the facts, Hyborian: http://www.snopes.com/california-motor-voter-act/

  31. Jean Henry
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    “Not a word on the recount exposing that 37% of Detroit precincts had more votes reported than there were voters either.”:

    Whoah… more facts: “In 248 precincts, there were a total of 782 more votes tabulated by voting machines than the number of voters listed as picking up ballots in the precincts’ poll books. That makes up just **three-tenths of 1%** of the total 248,211 votes that were logged in Detroit for the presidential election.”

  32. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

    So you are saying there is a reliable way to keep illegal immigrants who have a license from voting in California? What regulations prevent it?

  33. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:29 pm | Permalink

    How does that square with this?

    Lansing — Voting irregularities in Detroit have spurred plans for an audit by Michigan Secretary of State Ruth Johnson’s office, Elections Director Chris Thomas said Monday.

    State officials are planning to examine about 20 Detroit precincts where ballot boxes opened during the recount had fewer ballots than poll workers had recorded on Election Day.

    “We’re assuming there were (human) errors, and we will have discussions with Detroit election officials and staff in addition to reviewing the ballots,” Thomas said.

    Records: Too many votes in 37% of Detroit’s precincts

    The Detroit precincts are among those that couldn’t be counted during a statewide presidential recount that began last week and ended Friday following a decision by the Michigan Supreme Court.

    The recount problems were the worst in Detroit, where discrepancies meant officials couldn’t recount votes in 392 of the city’s 662 precincts, or nearly 60 percent. State law that bars recounts for unbalanced precincts or ones with broken seals.

  34. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    392 precincts could not be recounted under Michigan law due to irregularities.

  35. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Trump won by 10,7o4 in Michigan so if the 782 number is correct (I am betting it was more – was the Freep’s analysis based on all the Wayne County precincts or not?) that would have wrongly closed the gap by a significant amount.

  36. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 19, 2016 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

    30o votes reported from a single precinct on election night but only 50 ballots in the box. How could that be? That could give Clinton some 200+ extra votes from that precinct alone considering her 95% margin in Detroit.

  37. Taco Farts
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 1:28 am | Permalink

    Mark, I’ve begged a few times over the years. Maybe it will seem more immediately relevant nowadays.

    There is a moral imperative to disallow trolls, insincere posters, shills, spammers, and fake news morons from posting here. This is an art studio and some of your artists are claiming that using a flamethrower to burn everyone else’s work is their artistic expression. It is not anti-first amendment, it is not anti-dialogue, it is not fascist to disallow this. It is, literally, the opposite of those things. If your reasoning is not one of those, but the only other thing I can imagine it being (“I don’t have time to moderate”), then please, get one of those new interns to do it.

  38. Morbid Larson
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 3:09 am | Permalink

    Conservative calls for Clinton voters to “suck it up” are rather ingenuous.

    Perhaps they have some collective amnesia as to what happened following the election of Barack Obama in 2008? There was most certainly very active moves to deny his legitimacy as a candidate, moves which our current President elect spearheaded.

    But I guess they forget. Which is quite strange to me.

  39. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 5:34 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– you seem to have some problem understanding numbers that don’t confirm your narrative. it’s entirely possible for 37% of Detroit’s 242 precincts to have excess votes, and for that number to still be 782.

    One thing we learned from the recount was that Detroit’s voting process was f’d up. Hard to know in whose favor that fell since the problems were inconsistent but pervasive. So maybe we can agree that things need to be tightened up at the polls in Detroit. And we can agree that Trump won Michigan. And we can move on.

  40. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 5:39 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– re Motor voter, I suggest you read the links I provide to back up my statements before asking questions answered therein.

  41. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    Here’s another link you won’t read explaining the firewall which prevented illegal aliens from voting even while granting them drivers licenses. There is unfortunately no twitter firewall preventing our president-elect from spouting lies and his followers fro repeating them.

  42. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 5:46 am | Permalink


  43. Jean Henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    Well I guess Michael Moore got this one really wrong, eh? Clinton lost 5 electors. Could have been more. Some Sanders electors were replaced.

    How will the Dems win elections if our most passionate supporters persist in being strategically delusional? I was hugely disappointed to see HRC supporters act during this electoral college waiting period just like Bernie supporters did in the primary– Not accepting loss by the rules of the game as it was drawn up from the get go. If you want the rules of the game to change, then you get that done to the degree possible before the next round. How much you wanna bet they can’t follow through on the real years-long work of creating lasting change? Well, I’m going to work on it. After the holidays. I need a waiting period.

    We’re idiots.

  44. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    I’ve read all that stuff. No need to speak with condescension. Have I done that do you think? I am historically an Independent. I wanted to vote for Jill Stein actually (glad I did not based on the recount farce) but I was forced to go with the only one who could beat Hillary Clinton.

    I hope it is true there are not a ton of illegal voters. Pretty sure it is not that hard to “show” a social security number though. You know what I mean? It is definitely true voter demographics have been shifted in Cali and other states by lax immigration policies in the last two decades. How many American citizens are now of voting age whose parents waltzed across with no documentation during the 90’s? You don’t think Bill Clinton understood that? Can’t imagine that GWB (lax immigration too) knew that the plan was to transition to Obama, then Hillary to advance the agenda that they ALL share: globalization, war, astronomical debt, etc.

    Didn’t you guys get screwed in this deal? I haven’t checked the archives but don’t tell me you weren’t feeling the Bern. There is pretty good chance I and many others would have gone with him over Trump. You understand the DNC conspired with Hillary to kick him to the curb right?

    If you guys think my behavior is trolling then I will let you be. I think it is pretty darn polite. I have a lot more to talk about but if you don’t want to hear it then I guess it would be an intrusion. Mark Maynard? What do you think?

  45. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 7:58 am | Permalink

    Jean, Detroit has 662 precincts!

  46. EOS
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Hyborian – You have entered an alternative universe. Careful, speaking the truth may provoke Jean to threaten to cut you with a knife. Larson will start planting false quotes and attribute them to what you previously wrote. Get a thick skin and you’ll be fine. Please keep posting.

  47. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    I hope that is not the case. Don’t know Jean but Peetie is a sweetie (maybe not to you haha -don’t know what happened there) and I don’t think he would try to cut me down personally.

    The reality is HRC has done so much wrong that she is indefensible and I haven’t even scratched the surface. Still on the personal behavior level only she has gone against everything this site stands for. How about when she called young black criminals super-predators and literally spoke of them as if they are dogs saying we have to bring them to heel? Or not too long ago holding that marriage is only for a man and a woman? Then there is the rape stuff and the trips to Epstein’s underage sex island. There is the crooked campaign…everyone should watch Project Veritas to see exactly how they managed themselves.

    It’s all really bad and I think the silver lining a lot of people can’t see yet is that we didn’t get her. I wonder if Weiner’s Life Insurance email trove will come out so everyone will see once and for all how terrible she is.

  48. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian– yes the free press link makes that clear. I apologize if I misrepresented the numbers. I should have said ‘ across 242 precincts with excess votes.’ But the fact remains that in spite of there being 37% of precincts with overages the differential was less than 1% of total votes. It’s all there in the free press article.

    People here can confirm that I did not feel the Bern except briefly before he put forward his policy proposal. Your suggestion that you represent the Trump voter who would have gone Bernie will drive thrill the audience here. You are not representative of most Trump voters who would rather cut off an arm than vote for expanded government from a self proclaimed socialist. Beyond that, none of the down ticket people Bernie supported won either. His platform lost a bunch of times by large margins. But then ignoring the numbers that don’t support ones point of view is not a problem exclusive to you.

    EOS does not have a thick skin. She needs safe spaces to function comfortably.

    PS if you re read your posts I think you’ll find you were plenty smug yourself.

  49. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    In Hyborian, we finally see how tha alt right and alt left are becoming one– united in a conspiracy theory- fueled hatred of HRC. Welcome Hyborian, I’ve been waiting for one of you guys to show up.

    You know all those DNC and Podesta emails didn’t show much, but the Weiner ones will. That will prove once and for all that HRC is evil incarnate…

    The alt zone is where all the crazy meets.

  50. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    392 precincts had either the wrong number reported OR had a broken seal (wtf?) so something is extremely wrong. I do not think it is clear at all from the article whether they counted up the discrepancies in all the precincts.

    My vote for Trump was a vote against HRC. I have major qualms about his pro-Israeli stance. That was the biggest sticking point. For once I made a compromise.

    What do you think the smuggest thing I said was? That I am glad she got flushed? That’s about the only non-factual thing I have said. I think I’ve been quite respectful in a personal sense to you and everyone here.

  51. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Well here is one list of the top 100 Podesta emails. Call me crazy all you want but I would not characterize it as “not much.”


  52. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Want to come over for a little Spirit Cooking dinner tonight? haha

  53. Lynne
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    re:Not accepting loss by the rules of the game as it was drawn up from the get go. If you want the rules of the game to change, then you get that done to the degree possible before the next round. How much you wanna bet they can’t follow through on the real years-long work of creating lasting change?

    To be fair, Jean, this whole attempt to persuade electors to change their votes was not about changing the rules of the game. It was about working within the existing rules. It was futile to be sure and I had no part of it because I felt it would have been a waste of my time and energy. And sadly, I am not even sure these yahoos are going to even vote in two years so I have very little confidence that they will follow through on the real years-long work of creating lasting change although I am personally up for it to a degree. I keep hearing that showing up in person is the way to go to influence members of congress but I am not sure I will be able to do that too much. But calling and writing, I can do. And voting of course. GAWD, that is where I have the biggest problems with my fellow liberals, the lack of turnout in all elections but especially state, local, and midterm elections.

  54. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    I’m just pissed because the Hamilton elector strategy set us up to lose the presidency again. As if once, and for many Dems twice, wasn’t enough. I get the impulse to try anything. I also think it’s a recipe for exhaustion.

    Hyborian– you used facts but were not truthful or perhaps informed on the motor voter law or the Detroit missing votes. I read that ‘most damaging’ article months ago. Embarrassing is not the same as criminal. What you and other HRC haters what not borne out by a Wikileaks dump of thousands of emails thought to be private. You lost your case even among the many Dems who bought in to the gate at first.

    We can agree that we need a tighter voting process in Detroit with lots of oversight.

    I’m also working on non partisan redistricting reform (citizen council redistricting). If interested, let me know. You would be welcome. When you spout bullshit from my perspective , I’ll tell you. When I do, you can tell me. I can handle it. That’s true mutual respect.

  55. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

    Typing on phone in waiting room. Apologies for typos.

  56. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

    If California has effectively prevented non-citizens from voting that is great. No problem being corrected on that. Nothing I said about the Detroit vote is incorrect that I can see. You stated a fundamental misunderstanding of the article that you put up at the same time as saying I don’t understand it!

    Regarding the Podesta emails I didn’t say they prove criminality. That’s moving the goalpost. You said they don’t but I’m not so sure about that. For starters she definitely she should not have been using an unsecured server for classified documents. Pretty sure that is in fact a criminal offense if it is proven in court.

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    I highly recommend watching the documentary Clinton Cash to anyone who has interest in the subject.


  58. Lynne
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    I’m just pissed because the Hamilton elector strategy set us up to lose the presidency again.

    Don’t worry. By the next presidential election, all of this will have been forgotten and we will lose the presidency again because people choose not to vote.

  59. kjc
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    Clinton’s done. If you care about corruption, move on to Trump.

  60. Lynne
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    I have to admit that while I agree that Clinton is done, the absolutely unrealistic hatred for her still gets under my skin. I am not sure if it is the lies themselves or that so many believe them. I have not yet figured out how to deal with blatant lying as a tactic. In Clinton’s case, it clearly wouldn’t have mattered. People called her a liar no matter what she said but even though Trump lies all the time, people are so biased that they are willing to overlook it. It doesn’t matter that objective sources show that Trump is much more untruthful. My hunch is that it is sexism of course.

  61. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    The Democrats lost because of Hillary Clinton. In my lifetime I have never seen such a lack of campaign signs and bumper stickers in this town. Of course I didn’t scour the city but from my casual appraisal I counted a grand total of two yard signs. Suffice it to say she was profoundly unpopular. In the rural areas Trump support was ubiquitous.

  62. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    You should be able to rattle off a few true things she said that were widely criticized as lies then Lynne.

  63. Lynne
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 5:24 pm | Permalink

    Well, for starters, there is that she is widely considered to be corrupt and a liar even though every investigation into such matters has shown that she isn’t either corrupt or more of a liar than any other politician. In fact, objective analysis of her statements when compared to those of others shows that she was the most honest politician in the race this year. At least according to politifact.com

    It is also the lies told *about* her such as the many you have posted here in this thread. For example:

    How about when she called young black criminals super-predators and literally spoke of them as if they are dogs saying we have to bring them to heel? Yes, she made a comment about super-predators but she didn’t define super-predator as being young black criminals. Still, it was a racist law she was talking about. No doubt about it. The real question though is why her comments about it should hold more weight than say, actually voting for the law. Bernie Sanders voted for that law. Leaving that bit of context out of the criticism of her for her statements is a lie of omission.

    She laughed about getting a man who she understood to be a child rapist acquitted.

    She was assigned this case as a public defender and because she understands why it is important for everyone to get the best defense possible, she did her best and she won. Did she laugh about it? I don’t know but I know enough about affect to know that even if she did laugh during some interview or something, it is very unlikely that she was laughing at glee at the suffering of a rape victim.

    She flew aboard convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein’s “Lolita Express” private jet six times according to FAA flight logs.

    This isn’t necessarily a lie but is a giant “so the fuck what?” If you are going to be critical of everyone who has had an association with a sex offender, you have to be critical of everyone. Guess what, we all know sex offenders and we all associate with them.

    She pressured Juanita Broaddrick to be quiet about her allegation of Bill Clinton’s vicious rape.

    Did she? Do you know what she said to Broaddrick? I do. It was, “I just want you to know how much Bill and I appreciate what you do for him.”

    Yes, it is true that Broaddrick interpreted that statement as pressure but it seems very disingenuous to try to take that statement and then spin it as if she was knowingly pressuring someone who she knew had been raped by her husband to keep quiet.

  64. jean henry
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Jesus, that Clinton Cash thing is predictable. Why don’t you read the post debunking it point by point so I don’t have to do it for you.
    I have watched Clinton cash. You should at least research the counter points to it.

  65. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    I’ve never knowingly cozied up with a pedophile and sure wouldn’t go out of my way to go hang out on their sex slave island (see the lawsuit against Prince Andrew by a young woman who said that is what she was: a sex slave.) I am sure you would not do that either.

    Okay maybe she didn’t spell out that minority gang members are super predators but it sure does seem to be playing on that fear.

    Juanita Broaddrick was turning away to go and Hillary grabbed her arm and said those words plus “You understand: every thing you do” which she says chilled her to the bone. I believe Juanita Broaddrick when she said there was an implicit threat. Kathleen Willey’s husband supposedly committed suicide the day Willey made allegations of sexual assault by Bill Clinton. She says Hillary persecuted her. I believe Kathleen Willey too.

    Hillary Clinton did not have to take that case. She did laugh about the defendant passing a polygraph, saying it forever destroyed her faith in polygraphs.

    I believe Kathy Shelton.

  66. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    I would be interested to read the Clinton Cash debunking. Would you link to it, Jean?

  67. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

    Juanita Broaddrick on ABC

  68. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 6:36 pm | Permalink

    Broaddrick on the Hillary Clinton episode after the (alleged) rape

  69. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Kathleen Willey on Bill and Hillary Clinton

  70. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    Epstein scandal

  71. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    “So the fuck what?”
    So what the fuck?

  72. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Kathleen Willey’s harassment and intimidation

  73. Lynne
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 8:14 pm | Permalink

    I think Samantha Bee has a good explanation for guys like Hyborian Warlord


  74. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    Yeah…sexism. That’s it.

  75. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 20, 2016 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    “She is a fake feminist.”

  76. Morbid Larson
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    The last two Six Pack shows were never uploaded.

    That is unfortunate.

  77. Jean Henry
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– That was meant to be plural ‘links.’ This link cites many other articles.
    Everything you have cited here that’s actually about HRC is totally predictible and has been discredited. How can you imagine we haven’t seen these things before?? But beyond that, even assuming these are correct, Trump is still leagues worse on all counts, and yet you voted for him. So I guess I’m wonderng why? I’m asking for some original thinking, not links. What was your path to hating Clinton? I’m truly curious. I came to hate Sanders and I can state exactly how that position evolved. I assume you can do the same.

  78. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Good morning. The word discredited appears fourteen times on that page but where is the analysis? Yeah, I’m going to take David Gergen’s word for it that it is “basically discredited” due to not enough evidence. I’ll bet anything Clinton Cash is true enough.

    I think I’ve shown plenty of reasons why Hillary Clinton should never be in power. It’s not about hating her. It’s about the reality of what the Clintons do. You aren’t trying to hear what these women are saying? Never heard of the Clinton body count?

  79. Hagopian Handmaid
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    What’s the Clinton body count?

  80. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 9:27 am | Permalink

    A new book on Jeffrey Epstein called Filthy Rich by Mark Patterson says Trump kicked him out of Mar A Lago for propositioning an underage girl. I’d say that is leagues better.

  81. Jean Henry
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Yes. Hyborian. There is nothing you have said that is new to me. I believe you are a pawn of the right. Like so many Sanders supporters before you, you fell for a misinformation campaign perpetrated with intention over 30 years against HRC, who as a woman was an easier mark than her husband. We can agree to disagree. Clinton is done. You guys won. Congrats and talk to you in a few years about the wisdom of your vote.

    One question, are you at all upset that Trump is not pursuing his campaign promise to assign a special prosecutor to go after Hillary?

  82. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Have whatever opinion you want. I’ll stick to the facts.

  83. Lynne
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    What do you know? I agree with Dr Larson on something.

    I guess right now, I have little interest in trying to convince people that their “facts” about HRC are not really actual facts in my view. I hope that those Trump voters who, even in the smallest ways, value civil rights, women rights, their own economic well being, social security, medicare, the climate, etc will turn out and vote for more liberal members of congress in two years.

  84. Morbid Larson
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    We have to demand that the Six Pack be uploaded immediately.

  85. Morbid Larson
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    Checked again.


  86. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    As far as my political affiliation I don’t really have any. There is a one dimensional spectrum of right, left and center. I want to explore all the dimensions. We can be so much more than what we think we are as individuals. The hardware we are born with is capable of much, much higher intelligence than the level on which any of us currently operate. It will take a revolution of consciousness to make this world a paradise but we have the ability to do it. We are human beings. If we can imagine it then we can begin to bring it into reality.

  87. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    In short my ideal is an enlightened anarchy where people do good for the sake of doing good, not doing bad out of greed or power lust.

  88. Morbid Larson
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    What is “good?”

    In my travels throughout the world, I have found that this is a very relative term.

    As for “power lust,” power is sometimes a means of survival in extremely challenging contexts. “Greed” can mean shoring up enough resources to buffer against likely loss (note how many times people who have experienced extreme poverty go back to the all you can eat buffet. If you don’t believe it, watch one sometime. Formerly food insecure people behave differently than the rest of you. Seriously, watch sometime. We do weird things.)

    “Enlightened anarchy” as a goal can ironically only happen in educated, capitalist societies where basic needs are already met, where people are in agreement on basic ideals and where government guarantees some level of institutional protection. Unfortunately, this is not the case in most parts of the world, particularly where I live.

    Dreams are nice to have, though.

  89. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

    Do you really think survival is greed? I mean you can “greedily” eat when you are hungry but I think it should be obvious that is not what I mean.

    I can imagine enlightened anarchy in a world without capitalism or socialism or anything like that so I’m not so sure about that. We should be able to easily meet basic needs and educate ourselves far beyond the standard of today. We absolutely have the potential to be that smart and wise.

  90. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

    Good is a subjective idea that could have a different meaning for each person. It’s true. In the most elemental sense of the word I would say that which supports life on this planet tends to be good.

  91. Lynne
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    The only way I could see an anarchy working in any kind of meaningful way would be if the following conditions were met.

    1. Our technology makes it so that meeting basic needs of food, clothing, shelter, security, etc so cheap that everyone has access to such things even if they are lazy good-for-nothings who just want to sit around all day.

    2. People become almost entirely non-violent.

    3. We change significantly what creates status in our culture to something not dependent on wealth.

    4. We have informal means of providing justice *fairly* without requiring some governmental body to provide it.

    5. Our technology increases enough that everything that is currently socialized no longer needs to be. Think of all of the things which are socialized now and imagine how those same things might be provided to *everyone* equally. Education, defense, law enforcement, space travel, a social safety net, roads, borders, trade infrastructure, etc. Are we in a situation where such things no longer need to be provided by the government?

    I don’t know how well humans can work in an anarchy. It is a nice goal to be sure but like other lofty goals such as communism, we may not be evolved enough as a species with our culture for it yet.

  92. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 2:55 pm | Permalink

    Having enough quality food and medicine for everyone would go a long way towards relieving the problems in the world. It would be one hell of a start. We should begin with the easiest and most effective solutions. Lifting the worldwide ban on Cannabis sativa would be number one.

  93. Lynne
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    Lifting the worldwide ban on Cannabis sativa would be number one.

    So basically you consider marijuana legalization to be your number one priority but you voted for someone who wants to appoint someone who is pretty well known as being really anti-marijuana as attorney general?

  94. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 5:34 pm | Permalink

    I usually call it Cannabis. Hemp is one of the best sources of food (the highly nutritious seed) and a lot of other things people need to live. It’s probably a wash between Hillary and Donald on that issue. It was a non-factor for me in the election.

  95. Jcp2
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    1. Smoke pot
    2. Get high
    3. ….
    4. No more problems

  96. Jean Henry
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 8:02 pm | Permalink

    Everything Hyborian states as a core value and political ideal corresponds perfectly with a Trump vote.

    He makes total sense, and everyone should be listening to him and giving his ideas serious consideration.


    The question of what is good is a good question. I don’t think the answer is personal subjective. I think it’s usually socially determined. Community consensus determines the values good and bad. The urge to be seen or to see oneself as good often leads to unintended negative results. or as my neighbor Ray puts it: https://twitter.com/RaymondMcDaniel/status/802704909703344128

    (*not sarcasm)

  97. Jean Henry
    Posted December 21, 2016 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    Best case scenario for anarchy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEIn8GJIg0E

  98. Posted December 21, 2016 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Well, you know what they say about anarchy, Jean.

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