Dear Mr. Trump: Will You Advance a Moral Agenda?

williambarber2

Tomorrow night, as people around the world gather to celebrate the coming of 2017, Reverend Dr. William Barber II, along with several other leaders of the American faith community, will be congregating at the historic Metropolitan AME Church in Washington, DC for what they’re calling a National Watch Night service. The purpose of the gathering, according to the event’s organizers, is to launch a national movement intended to “resist extremism” and “advance state-based moral public policy agendas.” And, it was with this in mind, that Barber just posted an open letter to Donald Trump, requesting a meeting. Here’s the letter in its entirety. [If, after you read it, you’d like to join me in signing the letter, you can do so by following that last link.]

As you prepare to take an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the U.S. Constitution, we write with deep concern and prophetic hope for our nation and world. This letter is to share a commitment to meet with you in a house of worship prior to your inauguration, if you desire to hear our voice of counsel and challenge.

At the heart of our religious traditions, the moral values of love, justice and mercy compel us to seek the common good in society. When you place your hand on the Bible and promise to fulfill the duties of the office to which you have been elected, you will assume leadership of a government that exists to “form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and to our children.”

Why is this important?

Pursuing a more perfect union is serious work for any human being. We want to pray for you because we know this is an especially difficult task today.

In the prophetic tradition, we want to exhort and challenge you because you cannot do this work alone. Our sacred text honored by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike declares we must do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly before God. America’s Constitution begins “We the people…” because it points toward a form of government that requires a broad and engaged coalition of citizens in order to thrive. We want to pray and point towards these essential goals.

Mr. Trump, we hope it is your desire to be successful. Success is measured by how we welcome the stranger, care for the sick, care for the poor, and care for the hungry in practice and in policy. In order to be successful in the eyesight of God, leaders must repent when they are wrong, and they must be committed to promote that which is rooted in justice and good will. As clergy dedicated to the care of souls, we know you can neither succeed in a way that pleases God nor fulfill the duties of your office unless you repent. All of us, even persons who hold powerful positions, are called to repent when we violate the deep principles of love, justice, and mercy towards all, especially the least of these.

Since your election, our communities have been fractured by harassment and intimidation. People of color and religious minorities are afraid. Poor working people who you appealed to in your campaign are disappointed that you have attacked their union leaders while appointing Wall Street elites who use them to your Cabinet.

We are deeply concerned by the policy vision that your Cabinet selections suggest. After inviting Steve Bannon’s white nationalism into the Oval Office, you nominated Jeff Sessions to head the Justice Department—a man who did not receive Senate approval for a federal judgeship in 1986 because of his long history of racial discrimination in Alabama. If he maintains his past positions on civil rights and voting rights, he could overturn and undermine years of victories and protections secured and signed in the blood of the martyrs. Equally insulting to African-Americans is your nomination of Ben Carson, a black man with no experience in government or housing, to head HUD.

But race can never be separated from class in America. We are equally concerned about Andy Puzder’s resistance to the movement for a living wage, which impacts over 60 million Americans and 54% of all African-Americans. We are concerned about Tom Price’s expressed commitment to repeal the ACA and take away healthcare from people with preexisting conditions, veterans, and nearly 30 million Americans. We are troubled that you have chosen several people to lead federal agencies that they have publicly attacked in the past.

Both this nation and the rest of the world desperately need your heart to grow into a source of courage, so you might work with all people of goodwill to uphold the most sacred moral principles of our faith and constitutional values, which are:

1. Protecting and expanding voting rights and ending voter suppression and unconstitutional gerrymandering. We must also pursue women’s rights, immigrant rights, LGBTQ rights, labor rights, religious freedom rights, all with a commitment to the fundamental principle of equal protection under the law.

2. Pro-labor, anti-poverty, anti-racist policies that build up economic democracy through employment, living wages, the alleviation of disparate unemployment, a just transition away from fossil fuels, labor rights, affordable housing, direct cash transfers and other support for all families struggling to get by, and fair policies for immigrants; and by critiquing policies around warmongering that undermine our moral standing and ability to address domestic issues;

3. Equality in education by ensuring every child receives a high quality, well-funded, constitutionally diverse public education, as well as access to community colleges and universities and by securing equitable funding for minority colleges and universities;

4. Healthcare for all by expanding Medicaid in every state, ensuring access to Medicare and Social Security, moving decisively towards a universal, transparent, and equitable healthcare system, and by providing environmental protection and protecting women’s health;

5. Fairness in the criminal justice system by addressing the continuing inequalities in the system for black, brown and poor white people and fighting the proliferation of guns;

We do not believe that these are left or right issues. They are right or wrong issues. And while we know no human being is perfect, we wish to speak with you about these moral issues because far too much is at stake for you to succumb to your worst demons while in public office.

Our faith calls us to love all people but this love can never refuse to tell the truth and stand against hate, systemic racism, and economic inequality. We cannot simply congratulate you on your victory and say, “Peace, peace” when there is no peace. We are bound by our vows to tell the truth in love and stand together for justice, love and truth.

As this tumultuous year draws to a close, we will hold a National Watch Night service on December 31st at the historic Metropolitan AME Church in Washington, DC. We will gather to remember the enslaved people who came together to celebrate the possibility of a more perfect union of the eve of Abraham Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation. Like them, we will also enlist free women and men to fight for freedom and justice for all people in 2017 and beyond.

[If you’ don’t already have plans for New Year’s Eve, and you don’t feel up to traveling to DC to join Reverend Barber in person, you can participate in National Watch Night online.]

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Barber, who founded the Forward Together moral movement in North Carolina, I’ve written about him here a few times in the past. Most recently, as you may recall, we discussed his response to the legislative coup which just took place in North Carolina, stripping the incoming Democratic Governor of almost all of his powers. And, before that, I shared video of a speech I’d seen Barber deliver in Detroit on his efforts to build a majority coalition around issues of social justice. It’s all good stuff, and I encourage you to spend some time getting to know him, as he’s definitely one of those people that I think we should be paying attention to closely during the Trump years.

[note: The quote from the image at the top of this post comes from a story about Barber’s campaign in today’s Washington Post.]

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246 Comments

  1. Anonymous
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 3:58 am | Permalink

    Fuck yeah! Much better than watching the ball drop!

  2. Citywatch
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    I am asking myself this question: Why is this sort of thing no longer successful in effecting change? I am asking myself: What is the cost to Trump and others when they ignore or just give lip service to these efforts? I am asking myself: Why does meeting in a house of worship imply that these principles only exist there (and only on Sundays)?
    It seems that this sort of approach resonates with us because we already believe in social justice. You cannot appeal to the morality of people who are not moral. So I ask myself the question: How can you assure that the people Barber is targeting (Trump and others) that there will be negative consequences for them if they ignore efforts like this, and what would those consequences be?

  3. Jean Henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 8:14 am | Permalink

    Appealing to the moral center of a narcissist is a lost cause. I like Barber, and maybe his approach will rally opposition to Trump, but it’s not a message that will resonate in any way with Trump or his followers. It’s for sure not crafted to appeal to them. They are not its intended audience. It bothers me a bit that it is addressed facetiously to Trumpers. It seems like a con in the form of rhetorical device. Plus, this kind of list of demands always reminds me of hostage taking scenarios. I’d rather hear about specific policy proposals or referedums he is working on, personally.
    It seems like Barber is running for office. I find it hard to take this speech seriously. And I agree with almost all of it.

  4. Jean Henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    If Clinton had won and the alt right had written a similar message to Clinton before her inaugural that presented their political goals and perspective, would she have met with them. Would Clinton supporters want her too? No. I don;t get the point. This is just another form of talking over the voices of people with whom we disagree. If you want to change hearts and minds you will need to start with listening and finding common ground, not speechifying about what is not common ground and will sound to many of them like moralistic polemic. This appeal for civil rights on the part of the marginalized will play with them about as well as a fetal rights argument would play to a crowd of liberals.
    It;s just more shouting inside the bubble.

  5. stupid hick
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    Mark, did you miss Trump invited prosperity gospel preacher, Paula White, to pray at his inauguration? You liberals might not like it, but Trump is on the cutting edge of postmodern morality. Trump recognizes pay-to-play is a time honored tradition in American politics and business. Is it moral to expect to get something for nothing? The converse of “no taxation without representation”, is “no representation without skin in the game”.

  6. stupid hick
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    Jean is spot on, although maybe too conciliatory about wanting to find common ground and appeal to extremist hearts and minds. You liberals need to be less kind to your opponents. Think infiltrate and sabotage instead.

  7. jean henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    We liberals will never win a race based on adversarial posture. We are just not as cold and calculating; that’s why we are liberals. We can however learn to be truly open to other viewpoints, pay attention to facts, not to be smug assholes and maybe even own our own bigotry and blind spots. There is plenty of evidence that interpersonal relationships can overcome bigotry and bias to change hearts and minds. We also have to learn to be strategic– but again I think ideology and the belief that we are better than conservatives interferes with our ability to look at things strategically. There is no path forward in Barber’s speech. It’s a rallying cry. Which is fine for now I guess. I’m just so bored of liberal self congratulation.

  8. Jcp2
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Happy New Year from the happiest place on Earth!

  9. Frosted Flakes
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    “the politics of god”

  10. stupid hick
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Again I wonder why I bother trying to help you loser liberals, but here’s an idea for you to take back control of Michigan (if it’s successful, export it to other gerrymandered states): Step 1: find a benefactor like George Soros to buy some cheap property in gerrymandered districts, and a fleet of school buses. Step 2: Recruit 10-20,000 liberal loyalists, who are willing to relocate from liberal-packed districts, to live in Republican-controlled districts, for the minimum required residency period before the next election. Step 3: move them into the Soros Camps in gerrymandered districts, and help them get photo ID and register to vote (as Republicans, of course, to maintain operational secrecy, as well as to be positioned to reap future infiltrative and sabotagic benefits) Step 4: bus them to the polls on election day to take back Michigan and redraw district boundaries. Step 5: repeat in 25 Republican controlled states, and take back the US House of Representatives.

  11. Brad Hodgins
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

    These are Christian values I can support. Thank you for sharing. I know your personal beliefs are different from mine, but I love it when our opinions are shared.

  12. Posted December 31, 2016 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    Jean, it sounds as though you’re saying, “Why bother?” Would you have said the same thing to Reverent King, who was also facing incredible odds? This isn’t about changing Trump’s heart. This is about building a moral movement to push him. Of course Trump isn’t going to meet with them. That’s not the point. The point is presenting a moral framework that people can organize around. Barber is having success in North Carolina. There’s no reason to think the same thing might not be possible elsewhere.

  13. jean henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    I’m not saying why bother. I don’t think Barber’s movement has the energy of Kings. BLM seems closer. King also didn’t faux address his enemies. He was a straight shooter. His comments could not be read as a means for white liberals to congratulate themselves (again) for being progressive (in word only.) I think it’s fine, but Barber is not King. I see a lot of little liberal expressions of alliance with people of color as self-distancing bullshit. A lot has been said on this site about the concerns of the white working class and the supposed problem of ‘identity’ politics and ‘social justice warriors. You never popped in to express a point of view, Mark. But now you think signing Barber’s letter makes you an ally. And no doubt many here do too. I call bullshit. If you aren’t talking about bias on your own site and in your own community, just like you didn’t in the Sanders campaign, you aren’t doing the work. Sign the letter. It won’t do any good. Which doesn’t mean Barber’s work is not important, just that your action isn’t.

  14. jean henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Generally speaking, I don’t like organizing that Plays to righteousness and assumes a moral high ground. It’s usually a dodge.

  15. Demetrius
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    Happy New Year, Jean!

  16. nobody
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    I’m heartened by the fact that you’ve been wrong about everything thus far, Jean Henry.

  17. Jean Henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Have I though?
    I thought HRC would win Michigan both times and that she would win the electoral college. This puts me in line with most people looking at the polls. Many of us got that wrong. But wrong about everything? What else did I get ‘wrong?’

  18. Jean Henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

    Barber does not talk about Trump’s authoritarian inclinations. He disregards that completely. I don’t expect America to unify under a social justice or medicare for all platform any time soon, certiainly not under the GOP. What I think we share as Americans is some belief in the value of personal liberty. And THAT is what Trump threatens most. An Barber entirely ignores Trump’s authoritarian nature and disregard for the constitution. By harkening back to the old liberal issues, he may even be normalizing Trump– making him seem like any other GOP leader. He is not, and most Americans, even those who voted for him, know this and they are watching. I think Barber would be more likely to succeed in hobbling Trump and protecting the marginalized from the worst possible outcomes by focussing on ethics not morality. Ethics are more broadly agreed upon. I don’t know if anyone else noticed what Aretha did with the National Anthem at the Lions game Thanksgiving day. It was 2 weeks after the election. She stretched out that song into a prayer for America, one that demanded the players and cops and audience stop and listen together. She emphasized the will to freedom and the need for bravery embedded in this place and it’s people. I have never liked the national anthem. But she moved the dial on the song for me. The patriotism of people of color and other marginalized people is often complex and layered, but it’s also real. Barber’s faux attempt to unify, without talking about the real risks of totalitarian creep or truly shared American ideals, falls far short of Aretha for me. She finds what we hold in common. He claims to but does not. He should take a page from her book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK-98qufVhI

  19. nobody
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    You said we were wrong to worry about Trump. You said he would never win.

  20. nobody
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    You said Michael Moore was wrong when he said Clinton needed to address the concerns of Midwestern whites. You said she could win without them.

  21. Jean Henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    The Michael Moore bit was after the election, and she didn’t lose because of the White working class, unless you choose to parse it that way. The average Trump voter is college educated and makes 70 grand a year.

  22. Jean Henry
    Posted December 31, 2016 at 10:52 pm | Permalink

    http://www.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/193898/economic-hardship-favorable-views-trump.aspx

  23. Posted December 31, 2016 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know how many of you are watching the Watch Night Service, but it’s really interesting.

  24. Posted December 31, 2016 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    I’m a sucker for events like this, with representatives of numerous faiths on the stage together, all supporting one another, and talking about the work being done across religious lines. This is a good way for me to usher in 2017.

  25. Citywatch
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 1:25 am | Permalink

    Enough with the rehash of the rehash of the election. I go back to The questions I asked at the beginning of this comment section. And the Watch Night Service is fine for people to self-affirm. But how do these things change minds? Guilt? The people we are dealing with will have to be convinced through the threat or fact of negative consequences. Let’s ask ourselves: What are the consequences that can be imposed right now?

  26. Anonymous
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    You’ve got to hit them in the pocketbook, City Watch. It’s all they understand.

  27. Bob
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    Jean, you aren’t a liberal. Don’t flatter yourself.

  28. Jean Henry
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Bob apparently believes that if one is a true liberal one never criticizes liberals. Except for Clinton. Because, you know, she isn’t really a liberal either. It’s ok to ignore facts that are inconvenient to one’s ideology. The most important thing about being liberal is to say all the right things and do nothing– and really not even plan on doing anything, apparently. It’s also important to never admit any bias on the left. Any characteristic we dislike on the right is, by natural extension, not something we are subject to on the left. Like bias. We don;t have that, because we are against it. I don’t consider my political affiliation a badge of honor so it wasn’t flattery anyway.

    Citywatch– I don’t think we are in position to create meaningful consequence for Trump and GOP who take no stand against him. (If you have some ideas I’d like to hear them) There is work to do to create more free and fair elections. There is work to do to protect and support those most vulnerable. There is work to be done supporting those within the GOP who take a stand against Trump, as McCain did recently re torture.(And many GOP and the intelligence services are doing now re his relationship with Putin) I think we need to restore civilized discourse across beliefs, including becoming comfortable with informed critique of both sides. I don’t believe we will ever win any victories by being meaner than the right. I don’t think that’s our strength. I do think we need to move past rhetoric to action. Some of the work will be talking to Trump voters, not demonizing them. In particular, demonizing them to prop ourselves up should be avoided. I don’t think more us v them will help matters for us or anyone. I think it needs to be US v Trump. And if we wait long enough and respond effectively, he’ll dig his own grave.

    Some context for Watch Night Services. They originate with Methodist, Baptist and Pentecostal Christian churches, but took on significance within the Black Church on Dec 31, 1862, while Black Americans gathered to wait for Lincoln to sign the Emancipation Proclamation on Jan 1 1863.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-joan-r-harrell/watch-night-service-in-the-black-church-in-america-150-years-_b_2389965.html

  29. kjc
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 11:25 am | Permalink

    Oh the pompous white lady explaining how Barber is no King. Smh.

  30. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Speaks for God…huh! I suppose The Big Guy has no problem with Obama signing the NDAA or the Orwellian Countering Propaganda and Disinformation Act into law violating our constitutional right to due process and freedom of speech. I guess in God’s eyes beating the shit out of Trump supporters is just good people opposing extremism.

  31. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    “….pompous….Smh.”

  32. jean henry
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

    I did not know that respect for people of color involved suspending critical thinking about their initiatives. You all remind me of the lifeguard who gave a friend’s nephew ‘a break’ on the deep end test which he could not pass because she ‘felt sorry’ for him. My friend said ‘are you trying to kill him? Why hold him to a different standard?’ Mark compared Barber to King. I pointed up salient easily verifiable differences. I don’t believe I showed any disrespect for Barber. I like a lot of his work. If there were anyone who commented here who would not qualify as pompous and white, maybe we could get more perspective.
    Once again KJC and bob have nothing of substance to add– just criticism re not following some party line. I’d happily be considered ‘pompous’ any day of the week if it means I have my own perspective and the capacity to back it up. Better than petty and moralistic and under-informed.

  33. jean henry
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    Some believe the focus of resistance to Trumpism needs to be on social justice not issues of the economy, because immigration and Muslim registration is what Trump supporters are demanding he act on, Not the economy. Because it never was about the economy. If we cooperate with him on protectionism for economic reasons, we tacitly approve his protectionism that is seated in unfounded bias.
    https://extranewsfeed.com/the-best-way-to-weaken-trumps-presidency-stop-him-from-harming-minorities-6d9aa321766c#.r139d733j

  34. jean henry
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    In spite of the well publicized fraud of a few reports of ethnic intimidation, the vast majority goes unchallenged as does the spike in overall incidence. False reports are to be expected in any crime, but especially in a heightened politicized climate. That by no means the entire problem is made up. If you want to fight Trumpism, keep ears and eyes open, be prepared to support and de-escalate (not fight).

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/01/01/take-it-from-a-german-americans-are-too-timid-in-confronting-hate.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

  35. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    As I shown in the videos I posted violence against Trump supporters is way, way, way more prevalent than violence by them. It’s incredible in the truest sense of the word to play the victim card.

  36. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    *showed*

  37. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 1, 2017 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    or *as shown* take your pick haha

  38. jean henry
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 9:40 am | Permalink

    You could not be more wrong. SPLC tracks and verifies all hate crimes, including those against Trump supporters. At last count there were 27 v more than 800 against marginalized populations (which may or may not have to do with the election but overall incidence grew) The good news is incidence is down since the first few days. There were multiple fake news reports during the election about abuse of Teymp supporters where images were pulled from tv shows, past news events etc. Be careful what you believe Hyborian.
    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/11/18/update-incidents-hateful-harassment-election-day-now-number-701

  39. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    Actually your statement is wrong as usual, Jean. Those are graffiti, slurs, etc., not violence.

  40. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    Nothing fake about the Trump Supporters Beat Up Compilation Part I and II that I put up that you failed to acknowledge. I don’t think a single poster on this blog acknowledged it.

  41. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 10:53 am | Permalink

    Only 27 anti-Trump incidents reported according to your link. There are way more acts of violence against Trump supporters than that on youtube videos alone. There is no denying it, Jean.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF_eGq6KKUs

  42. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    I asked it before and you didn’t answer. Which is a worse crime: a slur or a beatdown? So how can the the SPLC’s hate crime numbers be taken seriously?

  43. anonymous
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    I did a search on MLK and Obama and came up with an interesting link that I thought would be worth sharing.

    http://markmaynard.com/2011/08/psychologist-drew-westen-on-what-happened-to-obama/

  44. anonymous
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    This is the part (about moral movements) that I found pertinent to this conversation:

    The following comment was just left here on the site by a fellow calling himself Jiminy Trickle. He raises an interesting point, and I thought that the rest of you might enjoy pondering it a bit.

    “It’s a persuasive article, until you consider actual history, and realize how deeply wrong it is.

    It places the success of these movements on the actions of two individuals: FDR and MLK. In short, it buys into modern media notion of heroic superpowered individuals to fix things for all of us, rather than than the reality than articulate persons simply help articulate a mass movement.

    MLK did not get attacked by dogs and drenched in fire hoses. FDR did not organize unprecedented labor movements. Of course, I don’t want to diminish their courage and sacrifice (obviously esp. MLK). But they spoke for movements that had a life of their own. They did not, did not act alone or even come close to creating the movements.

    It is absurd to blame Obama. If you want Obama to “bend towards justice,” bend him. It’s clear that he’s bendable. But it’s plain stupid to look for some single savior to lead and create a movement. The movement comes first. The mouthpiece follows.”

  45. Meta
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    William Barber: “Our New Year’s Resolution: We Cannot Bow Down”

    2016 proved that we as a nation have a heart problem. When America is weighed in the balance of God’s desire for love and justice, we are found wanting. We have seen again a theme which recurs too often in the American story—that we go forward only to step backwards, that every stride toward freedom is met by a backlash of hate and fear.

    Here in the 21st century, racism and economic fear still too often conjure a powerful magic which compels this nation to seek safety in hating the other and security in the false nativism that has failed us before and will fail us again.

    Long before any Russian hack, the American electoral process was compromised by racism and fear. The Southern Strategy’s divide and conquer tactics touch something deep in our social DNA—a fundamental fear which is ever seeking to come forth and masquerade as normal.

    One of the most under-reported stories of 2016 was that America experienced its first federal election in half a century without the full protections of the Voting Rights Act. We had 25 debates during the presidential primaries and general election and not a single question about the attack on voting rights. Fourteen states had new voting restrictions in place for the first time in 2016—including crucial swing states like Wisconsin and Virginia.

    On Election Day, there were 868 fewer polling places in states with a long history of voting discrimination, like Arizona, Texas, and North Carolina. These changes impacted hundreds of thousands of voters, yet received almost no coverage. In North Carolina, as Joan Walsh reported, black turnout decreased 16 percent during the first week of early voting because “in 40 heavily black counties, there were 158 fewer early polling places.”

    We cannot understand 2016 without turning back the pages of campaign history to Barry Goldwater in ’64, and George Wallace and Richard Nixon in ’68. We must be clear as we start a new year: there is nothing unprecedented about Donald Trump. His appeal to the lesser angels of our nature is as American as Apple Pie.

    We must be equally clear that this is not just about a president. An entire web of money and influence has been working to tie up American democracy. Even as the divide between the rich and the poor is at its widest in our nation’s history, our electorate is growing more diverse every year. Wealthy oligarchs know they cannot hold onto power in truly democratic elections; so we are witnessing an all-out assault—foreign and domestic—on the very heart of our democracy.

    And this is not simply about the preservation of a government conceived by human beings. It is, fundamentally, about the well being of creation and the survival of those creatures who bear God’s very image. We live in a moment when millions desperately need a government and society with a heart. Millions of Americans need health care, living wages, and protection from xenophobia, systemic racism, homophobia, religious bigotry, and climate destruction. This is about whether a government of the people and by the people will in fact serve the people. It’s about whether we, as a people, can reconstruct the heart of our democracy.

    We have been clear throughout our Moral Revival, which visited 22 states in 2016, that all of our faith and constitutional traditions point us toward the same fundamental moral values. We delivered our Higher Ground Moral Declaration to both the Repbulican and Democratic National Conventions, and we held Moral Day of Action rallies at 32 state houses in September 12th to deliver it to sitting governors and candidates for statewide office.

    So we wrote to Mr. Trump saying, “We do not believe that these are left or right issues. They are right or wrong issues. And while we know no human being is perfect, we wish to speak with you about these moral issues because far too much is at stake for you to succumb to your worst demons while in public office.”

    Some things we stand for no matter who is in office.

    We must build a movement that declares, “Standing down is not an option.”

    We must bring poor people together—black, white, and Latino; Christian, Muslim, Jewish; people of faith and people who trust in a moral universe; gay and straight; civil rights and labor.

    A moral, fusion movement is the only thing that has ever moved this nation forward. And we declare in the face of mean-spirited regressive forces that will bow to nothing but Mammon, “We will not stand down! We’re going forward together, not one step back!”

    This is our resolution for 2017. We cannot stand down.

    Like William Loyd Garrison, who was asked to moderate his abolitionist stance, we declare: “I do not wish to think, or speak, or write, with moderation. . . . I am in earnest — I will not equivocate — I will not excuse — I will not retreat a single inch — AND I WILL BE HEARD.”

    From the abolitionists to those who fought lynching to those who pushed back against Jim Crow, fascism, and apartheid in the 20th century, we stand in a long line of witnesses who declared, “We cannot stand down. For us, it is a matter of faith. As the New Testament letter to the Hebrews says, “we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.”

    As we begin 2017, we must remember those three Hebrew children who faced a fellow who liked to build towers. They tell me no one had ever seen a tower like Nebuchadnezzar’s tower. He loved to cover things in gold and make them shine. And he loved for people to bow down and worship his towers.

    Nebucanezzar told those Hebrew children that if they didn’t bow down, he’d throw them in the fire.

    But he didn’t know that those boys had a fire deep down inside them. He didn’t know that one of them had been part of Moral Mondays, and one of them was in the Black Lives Matter movement, and the other one had been part of the Fight for 15. They’d refused to eat the king’s meat and drink the king’s wine at Mar-a-Lago—I mean, in Babylon. Rather than get drunk with the wine of the world and forget those who came before them, they told the stories and Egypt and sang the songs of Zion to steel their spirits. The King and his men didn’t know it, but Shadrack, Meeshack and Abednego were part of a Moral Movement.

    They didn’t bow down, and because they didn’t, they changed the king. They changed the climate. Those Hebrew children brought about a moral revolution of values because they would not stand down.

    In the face of the extremism we see around us, I still believe in the power of a moral movement. I’ve read about it in my Bible and I’ve seen it in American history. But my faith in the power of a movement is not hypothetical. Because I’ve also experienced it down in North Carolina.

    When we started fighting back with Moral Mondays, they said it didn’t matter because the extremists had all the power. They’d taken control of all three branches of government, and they weren’t backing down an inch. But we stood together and declared, “Standing down is not an option!” And we went into the fire together. We marched together and prayed together. We went to jail together and we registered voters together. We petitioned our legislators and sued them in court together.

    And we won. Just a few weeks ago, when Governor Pat McCrory finally conceded the election, the extremists in North Carolina had to cede control of the executive and judicial branches. I know the news has been about the undemocratic power grab the legislature waged in response. But that’s not the whole story. Because a federal court already ruled their authority illegitimate because of racial gerrymandering. We’ve got a special election coming in 2017. What we’re witnessing is the last gasps of a dying order.

    In South Africa, during the struggle against apartheid, they used to say, “Only a dying mule kicks the hardest.”

    So this is what we can’t miss in the biblical story: Nebuchaddnezer would have never fought so hard to get those boys to bow down if he hadn’t already witnessed their strength to stand up.

    Indeed, we may be headed into some fiery times, but we must be clear: bowing down is not an option. Turing back is not an option. If we stand our ground, we can be sure: help is on the way. And it will be sweet rest indeed when every knee bows to the God of love and justice.

    Read more:
    https://www.redletterchristians.org/our-new-years-resolution-we-cannot-bow-down/

  46. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Is it true that the SPLC verifies all crimes on their list?

  47. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    It’s definitely not true that they catalog all hate crimes as Jean claimed unless violence based purely on ideology is not a hate crime. If that is the case then why call graffiti and things like that hate crime? The SPLC makes money through donations so they have a self-serving motivation to distort reality.

  48. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    “In North Carolina, as Joan Walsh reported, black turnout decreased 16 percent during the first week of early voting because “in 40 heavily black counties, there were 158 fewer early polling places.”

    Are we sure that they just weren’t that enthusiastic about HRC? Or conversely that they were naturally that much MORE excited about Obama?

  49. Stupid Hyborian
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Yeah! And how do we know that closing 148 polling places in 40 heavily black counties wasn’t a liberal attempt to suppress Trump supporters?

  50. Lynne
    Posted January 2, 2017 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    Really? You don’t know why graffiti can be a hate crime? Is it as bad as violence? No, but in concert with violence, as it usually is, it can be terrifying.

    I have seen no evidence that hate crimes against Trump supporters is higher than the hate crimes against other groups. However, I think we can all agree that such behavior is unacceptable.

  51. jean henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:19 am | Permalink

    The Jimmie Trickle comment seems apt. Both FDR and MLK have been mythologized. FDR was a moderate in his time. He did not lead any movement except to preserve capitalism in the face of growing communist and socialist movements. Barber seems to have been effective in reaching his Southern religious audience. I don’t know that his moral centered message plays as well elsewhere. We’ll see.
    FF the SPLC does verify. They report crimes that the police report. That does not mean they wait until the police report is complete to add crimes to their list, but they remove them if the police drop charges. They do not wait until charges are filed because perpetrators are not always found. Among their list of hate groups are Earth First and other leftist groups.All the info is on their site.

  52. jean henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:36 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– I do not deny that trump supporters have been subjected to derision and violence and no it’s not acceptable. This is the atmosphere we occupy now and it’s one I hold Trump accountable for. People who have been here no I have decried violence and hatred by Sanders supporters and the shouting down of BLM protestors at HRC and Sanders rallies. BUT you claim that violence against trump supporters is higher– and there is no evidence of that at all. There are certainly not enough claims of actions against Trump supporters to validate your position. Breitbart puts the number at 10; SPLC puts it at 27. V 800 reports of ethnic intimidation. As far as graffiti goes a swatika or n word tag is clearly more intimidating than a fuck trump tag. And even there the numbers are against you position.
    Some of the images you posted were falsified. http://www.snopes.com/injured-trump-supporter/ I’m sure some weren’t. It’s a false equivalence. Feeling derided for ones political position is not the same thing as feeling derided for ones racial, ethnic, gender or sexual identity. Period.

  53. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    There are dozens of clear video images of Trump supporters being struck by fists and other things in the videos I posted in this thread and the other one. So to say you have seen no evidence is mystifying.

    I did not say graffiti can not be a hate crime. My point is that if ideological and race-based violence is not counted as a hate crime then what is the point of counting the less serious crimes as such?

    Jean Henry, Snopes is lying. The woman hit in the head with eggs was wearing a Trump jersey while facing an angry mob shouting fuck Trump.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWIMt9JxugQ

  54. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    Reading the Snopes article more carefully they do not dispute the egg attack. As far as I know I did not post anything with the bloody girl image they are talking about so that would be a strawman argument on your part, Jean.

  55. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Good morning by the way and Happy New Year!

  56. jean henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    Ideological hatred is not the same as race based. Not even close.

  57. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 8:51 am | Permalink

    Violent attacks are not even close to graffiti. Some attacks on Trump supporters are clearly racist as the video of the man beaten and robbed by people who said he is one of those white boy Trump supporters proves.

  58. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    I don’t think you are right about verification Jean.

    This is from what I believe is the Splc website:

    “The SPLC collected reports from news articles, social media, and direct submissions from the #ReportHate intake page. The SPLC made efforts to verify each report but many included in the count remain anecdotal. ”

    Splcenter.org?

  59. Jean Henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:32 am | Permalink

    FF– that is a change in their standard which may be due to the high volume of reports now. Last I checked was right after the election. I do know that if a report is shown to be wrong (and that can take months and even years) then it is removed. They are tracking both sides and even if one assumes double or triple the number of false reports of ethnic and racial intimidation v Trump supporter intimidation, the numbers do not compare.

    Please note also that sexual assault (of which there have been many by people who self-identified as Trumpers, including a few locally) or any gender-based assault is not considered a hate crime by the SPLC or anyone in the US. If we included gender based violence, the numbers would be multiplied exponentially.

  60. Jean Henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:46 am | Permalink

    On a side note, it seems that people on the left, who have not grown up within religious communities or families, are much more drawn to political appeals to morality and their righteous figureheads. It’s not just in the political realm but spiritual appeals have also crept into business and exercise and health care. The appeal of the spiritual is something very basic in human beings, whether or not God exists anywhere but in our minds. Like anything compelling, spirituality is a drive that can be used for good or ill or both. Personally, I see no upside to any morality that is not deeply personal and kept that way. Once public, some group or nehavior is demonized and ostracized. And I am really suspicious of any leader who inspires idolatry (it’s not clear if Barber qualifies). If they weren’t narcissistic bastards from the start, they become so. It just seems to go wrong more often than not. People who did not grow up in religious households never seem to understand this. Their guard is not up in the same way.

  61. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    The Clinton campaign paid people to incite violence at Trump rallies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QX1aAYR_qQ

    Donald Trump sends a direct message to anyone who might perpetrate ethnic, sexual orientation or religious intimidation in his name.

    Infowars
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un5_ERpF2m4

    Young Turks
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYfGCJRB7Zs

    Clinton campaign and DNC paid people to incite violence at Trump rallies.
    Project Veritas
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

  62. Jean Henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    FF– This article sums up the issue with collecting hate crime data nationally. It does appear that SPLC changed it’s standard as the reports rose exponentially. They have tracked incidents of racial, ethnic and LGBTQ intimidation but those include rallies and marches (white nationalist, KKK, etc,) which are totally legal. Local police depts are not required to track hate crimes. The FBI collects data only if they do. Where reports are collected, they do seem to be on the rise.

    http://qz.com/843834/are-hate-crimes-really-on-the-rise-in-america-heres-a-guide-to-the-data/

  63. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    I tried to find reports of sexual assault by Trump supporters but I’m not having any luck. Links to support that, Jean?

    https://www.google.com/#q=trump+supporters+sexual+assault

  64. Lynne
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    Re: “This is the atmosphere we occupy now and it’s one I hold Trump accountable for.”

    I think Tess Rafferty summed it up pretty good when she said:

    “I tried to be polite, but now I just don’t give a damn, because let’s be honest, we don’t live in polite America anymore. We live in ‘grab ‘em by the pussy’ America now. So thank you for that, being polite was exhausting.”

    It is funny though how freaking whiny so many white men get when they get treated with the same lack of respect with which they treat everyone else. It is even more ironic that so many seem to adopt this victim mentality on the one hand while at the same time accusing others of adopting a victim mentality. I have hardly ever seen such blatant projection in my life! It is also amazing how people can feel victimized without having ANY empathy for those who are actually victimized in our culture.

    I don’t think the solution is to reason with these guys. I think the solution is to kick them in the balls (and for FF who has trouble with metaphor, I don’t mean actual violence. I mean taking away any power derived from maleness and smashing the patriarchy. )

  65. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    I am a white man mixed with Arabic man and I stand with the victims of Bill Clinton’s sex assaults. I find it extremely hypocritical of supposed feminists to sweep that under the rug while slamming Trump for his comment.

  66. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    I stand with all sexual assault victims. If there is strong evidence Trump ever seriously assaulted someone then I would condemn that too.

  67. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    I hope your comment is not directed at me at all, Lynne. You aren’t implying it is whiny to point out the many video clips of Trump supporters being beaten down are you? Or that any of what you said applies to me based on my posts which is all you know about me.

  68. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    Maybe Lynne thinks it whiny to politely fact check false statements?

  69. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    For the record I have personally intervened in violence against (African and European American) women in this town a number of times and gave a safe place to stay until they were out of danger.

  70. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Your posts certainly are polite, Frosted Flakes. No ad hominems or anything like that that I can see.

  71. Lynne
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Maybe Lynne thinks it whiny to politely fact check false statements?

    Not at all! I have been pretty thankful for Jean doing that so much with this Hyborian person who seems like a nice enough person but yes, a little whiny with the complaining about the persecution of Trump supporters and disingenuous with the claims to support all victims of sexual abuse – a false claim since it is impossible to have voted for someone who brags about using his status and power to grab women’s genitals and still validly claim that one cares about women being sexually abused. No, as far as I can tell, he only cares about women being sexually abused when it helps advance his politics. It is like saying you care about the homeless but then actively support politics that make things harder for the homeless (looking at you, Ann Arbor liberals!).

    I find it whiny when those with most of the power start complaining when they lose even a little bit of it. I think the answer though is to just ignore their whining and work to take their privilege away so that we can have an actual egalitarian society. It is already happening, thank goodness.

    It is actually a reason why I feel that one of the worst things that could possibly happen to humans as a species would be to figure out how to be immortal. Not likely I know.

    Progress comes from the young when the older people who are impeding that progress die off. Our current younger generation is much less sexist and racist than older generations. While it is true that some children will be influenced a bit by the rape culture and outright racism advocated by Trump and his supporters, I am hopeful that it will not enough of an effect to actually set us back. I am only sad that this is a social effect I will not likely see since, of course, I have to die too but I am comforted by the fact that my own biases will die with me.

  72. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

    Isn’t it worse to do what Bill and Hillary Clinton did to Broaddrick and Willey and Jones? I never said Trump is my hero like Jean said about Hillary. All I have said is he is not as bad.

    Trump kicked Epstein out of Mar-a-Lago for propositioning an underage girl. The Clintons are major pals with him. According to you, Lynne it is no big deal but I don’t think so. I would be happy if you reconsidered perhaps with some research on the Lolita Express club.

  73. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 4:50 pm | Permalink

    I know what it is like to get jumped and it doesn’t feel too good. I think only someone who is unfamiliar with an experience like that would call it whiny to point out there is a ton of video evidence of it happening to a particular group while at the same time harping on relatively minor incidents against another group.

  74. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 5:01 pm | Permalink

    Regarding the 800 incidences of hate crimes: how many of these have to do with Trump? If you have lived in this country for very long you know well that hateful messages have been scrawled in public places for a long time to say the least. Disingenuous indeed to try pinning it on Donald Trump.

  75. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    I said from the start Trump is distasteful (in certain respects.) The problem is Clinton is wretched for all the reasons I have stated. Call it sexism, racism, whatever all you want. I know it is not.

  76. Lynne
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    “I think only someone who is unfamiliar with an experience like that would call it whiny to point out there is a ton of video evidence of it happening to a particular group while at the same time harping on relatively minor incidents against another group.”

    I am calling it whiny to act as if the group of Trump supporters is being persecuted en masse based on isolated incidents found on youtube. As if being targeted for something you can control such as your political views is the same as being targeted for something you cant easily control such as your skin tone or gender. The way you dismiss the hate crimes against anyone other than people who are the same gender as you and the same skin tone as you and the same sexual orientation as you says a lot about you. The incidents against Trump supporters are not widespread either even though you seem to want them to be so. I think it is like how when you point out someone’s racism or sexism, they often just turn around and accuse the person pointing it out of the same thing. It shows a real lack of understanding of the issues at hand, btw.

    Fwiw, you would be wrong in the assumption that I have not been a victim of violence but you seem like you are wrong a lot.

  77. Lynne
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    “Disingenuous indeed to try pinning it on Donald Trump”

    Not at all. His rhetoric has created a climate where violence against any one other than a white man has been legitimized. It really will be interesting to compare crime stats before he takes office and after. No one is saying that Donald Trump is committing the violence himself, we are merely pointing out his role in it and that of those who voted for him.

  78. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    How are those dozens and dozens of physical attacks isolated? Not widespread??? Then show the other side of the coin and let’s compare.

    My comment on Trump’s condemnation of any racist or any other ‘ist’ intimidation is still in moderation I see. Where is the outrage that Clinton and the DNC in their contractors’ own words paid to incite violence? That is in stark contrast to what Trump has said.

  79. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    I don’t dismiss anything. I say words are not as bad as beating the shit out of someone. To blame Trump for racist white men’s actions is ridiculous. You are going to have to take the blame for racist violence on white men if you do that and that is much more serious crime than most of what the SPLC is counting.

  80. Jean Henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:35 pm | Permalink

    “In ethics, there is a humility; moralists are usually righteous.” — John Berger (RIP)

  81. Jean Henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:41 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian. No presidential candidate has ever talked like this. Corrupt big boss mayors like Rizzo used to, but presidential politics was spared this grotesquerie. And yes, violence begets violence. I have no doubt people have felt inflamed enough to attack Trump supporters as well. It needs to stop. We can agree to that. This does not have to be a pissing match. It’s tiresome. Trump is an asshole. There is no other objective way to see him. Stop trying to pretend otherwise. His behavior can not be justified.
    https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000004269364/trump-and-violence.html

  82. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

    Either that or make Hillary, Obama, the DNC, etc. take the blame and that would be more true than Trump being responsible for all racism against minorities. Have they condemned the mob violence against Trump supporters black, white and hispanic? Imagine if Trump people were going around being like FUCK CLINTON, chasing down her supporters and beating them to a pulp. This is insanity what you are saying here, Lynne.

  83. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

    If Trump is an asshole then Hillary and the DNC (yes they are one) are a piece of shit. Too bad for you she got flushed by all the people who see her for what she is.

  84. Bob
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, where is the evidence that the “current younger generation are much less sexist and racist than older generations?” A little, maybe? I really wonder if it’s true. Both you and The Jean are fond of stating your opinions as fact.

    If they are, it’s probably a tradeoff for the generally rude, selfish, spoiled sense of entitlement they bring with their reduced level of homophobia.

  85. stupid hick
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian, you know how you can tell those YouTube videos are fake? Not ONE of those alleged Trump supporters pulled a gun and stood their ground. Trump supporters beating on each other for the camera.

  86. Jean Henry
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:23 pm | Permalink

    Bob– Everyone here states their opinions as facts. It’s only Lynne and I (women) whom you would have speak more indirectly and obsequiously. Interesting…

    My take on millennials (will that work Bob? You know you hurl so much abuse, but I do try to please you…) is that they are not entitled. They have more debt and fewer prospects at lower pay and with no retirement security than any generation for years. So to call them spoiled is a bit off. They do feel entitled to do better than their parents, and they are not. But they are the first US generation (at least the first generation of White young people) to experience that scenario. It could be that any of our generations would have been equally mad. This generation in particular was told the world is their oyster, they would get gold stars for participating. So their great self-esteem ran up against unrealistic expectations. They’ll be ok. I don;t think they are less sexist, racist etc. I think they believe they are. I know they are committed to progressive movements. Too soon to say if that will hold. But when old people like us call them spoiled and entitled, it’s just repeating the old stereotype. We were all called the same thing by older generations when we were young. Now get off my lawn! Please, I mean, if you are comfortable with that. Just my opinion.

  87. Lynne
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

    Bob, maybe you just have a problem when women express opinions strongly? Of course it is an opinion of mine that younger people are less bigoted than older people but as it happens, it is an opinion backed up with facts. Maybe you should learn the difference between facts and opinion before you criticize someone else for failing to make the distinction? You know instead of just assuming that someone is trying to present an opinion as fact. Just a thought.

    In terms of sexism, as a female, I can just see it. I can see the huge differences in attitudes towards gender roles and it is definitely generational. I can’t find a link to it right now but there have been studies with a certain riddle about a doctor that does seem to show that younger people are a bit less sexist than older people at least based on their response to this riddle*.

    I recently reconnected with the mother of a childhood friend on facebook and just after the Trump election she wrote this great essay about how hard it was for her when she got divorced with two small children. Women were not even allowed to have credit cards then! One thing that was remarkable to me was how different my attitudes about women are than hers were. Younger women clearly take it for granted that they can get out and work even if they get married and have kids in a way that my mother’s generation never could. So ok, if you want to make the argument that my opinion is based too much on my personal experience rather than objective studies of gender bias, you could make that point although you would risk motivating me to find studies confirming this in a more objective way which may or may not exist but is that a risk you want to take? I mean in terms of looking more foolish than you already do.

    For other forms of prejudice, particularly homosexuality, there is a stark difference.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2015/0220/Millennial-Evangelicals-push-for-full-inclusion-of-LGBT-Christians

    And while the differences are not quite as large when it comes to race in that younger people are still pretty racist, there are measurable differences there too

    http://fusion.net/story/319822/donald-trump-racism-young-people-study/

    *A man and his son were driving down an icy road. When they took a corner, the car flipped. After a while, two ambulances came, one took the father to a hospital in the west, the other took the son to an hospital in the east. The nurses rushed the son into surgery, because he was losing a lot of blood. The doctor entered, and after looking at the boy exclaimed: ” I can’t operate on this boy, he is my son!” How can this be?

  88. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    I hope you are not serious, stupid hick. I haven’t been around long enough to know if that is your brand of sarcasm.

    Jean, if you actually read my posts you will find subjective opinions are far fewer in frequency than in yours.

  89. Stupid Hyborian
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 10:27 pm | Permalink

    Come on, not ONE of them was carrying? Not ONE of them defended themselves? You’re not the least bit suspicious? Totally fake my friend.

  90. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 10:37 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, that’s how I decide what is real or not. No gun – fake.

  91. stupid hick
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian W, Look at the other videos uploaded by the same sources. One of them uploads conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook and Area 51. Another is James O’Keefe. And Infowars? Please, conservatives can succeed with honest arguments, they don’t need manufactured propaganda.

  92. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Sounds like you are inventing a conspiracy theory about these video documents. Posting information about those things has nothing to do with the reality of Trump supporters being beat up on video by the dozens.

  93. stupid hick
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    Prove they’re not fake! Should be easy to back up with court documents if they’re not.

  94. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Pretty sure most of these crimes went un-prosecuted. I could be wrong so I’ll get back to you if I find out otherwise. I think the authenticity of these vids is self-evident. Anything is possible though! It could be a vast right wing conspiracy.

    36 minutes of violence and abuse against Trump supporters
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44uzVj_Fmaw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49WnQlstvVg

  95. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Comment awaiting moderation

  96. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 3, 2017 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    SH,

    Despite Jean’s sloppy attempt to dismiss one of the clips the clip she was trying to dismiss happened. Additionally, the Wilcox beating in Chicago happened. I don’t know about others because I am not going to spend a lot of time researching this stuff…Google “trump supporter attack videos are fake”. You will not get much to support your theory that there are a lot of fake videos of Trump supporters being attacked, I think. Let me know if I am wrong, I guess.

  97. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 6:54 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– you simply believe your subjective opinions are facts.

  98. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    FF — I never denied the assault took place and neither did the article I posted. I said the photograph was doctored and reports are exaggerated which they have been. You should hold Hyborian to the same standards you do me. For review again.
    http://www.snopes.com/injured-trump-supporter/
    I wish I had time to dig uo all the fake and half fake and one sided news around this issue but I don’t. It’s all months old now.
    http://www.snopes.com/black-mob-beats-white-man-for-voting-trump/
    What I’m not hearing is any assessment of Trump’s responsibility for rising tensions.
    This conversation is inane, but to deny Trump’s role bends it to the absurd.

  99. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 7:08 am | Permalink

    Good morning, Jean. I try to avoid that condition as much as possible. Truly I do. It is my guiding philosophy that there is always a better way to understand any given thing. So I might as well treat any belief I have not been able to root out as in effect incorrect.

  100. Bob
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    The Jean likes the sound of her own voice so much that she even speaks for Lynne. Are they the same person? Does it matter? Probably not. Nobody thinks you’re an obnoxious blabbermouth because you are a woman Jean. Your gender has nothing to do with it. You are just obsessed with sexism even when it doesn’t exist. And your hero Hillary? She’s attending Trump’s inauguration. A perfect example of what the fuck was wrong with her to begin with.

  101. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    The peaceful transfer of power is essential to maintaining our democracy. As the wife of an ex-president, she and Bill will attend the inauguration along with all the other able ex-presidents and their wives. Because she’s not an asshole. (That’s an opinion.)

    PS I did not speak ‘for’ Lynne but of Lynne. (That’s a fact.–“Everyone here states their opinions as facts. It’s only Lynne and I (women) whom you would have speak more indirectly and obsequiously.)

    Hyborian– you seem well meaning, but your self-delusion is astounding (just an opinion)

  102. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    FWIW l think that last post pretty much sums up what is wrong with YOU Bob.

    I still find it amazing that people hate women and by extention Clinton, that they could see something like a former first lady attending the inauguration as some example of everything that is wrong with her.

    Also Bob. Just because you cant see the sexism Jean talks about doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I think that you have really horribke attitudes towards women so they are normal to you. You clearly have a problem with strong women. Oh well. Your attidude is likely to call you even more discomfort in the years to come as women keep smashing the patriarchy. But that is ok with me.

  103. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    It is kind of amazing how when one looks for sexism– a cultural phenomenon–, one sees it everywhere in the culture.

  104. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Oh man, I have to stop using my phone to comment here. Yikes. The autocorrect kills me. LOL

    Yes, it is kind of amazing how sometimes having people point out sexism or other forms of bigotry can really open your eyes too. For instance, I can remember when I was around 6, in the early 70’s, one of my friends commented to me as we watched a family drive by the street where we were playing, “Did you ever notice that Mrs White always does the driving but in every other family, the dad drives?”

    I hadn’t noticed it of course but I can assure you that I did after that and she was right. Except for the Whites, the mom’s only drove when they were the only driver. If their husband was in the car, *he* was driving. Always. That would have been my first feminist moment except that I was all about Free to Be, You and Me at the time which really was remarkable for the time in the way it addressed things like gender roles.

  105. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    Like I said, Jean. Have whatever opinion you want. If you don’t have evidence for a claim (such as Trump supporters have committed “many sexual assaults including a few locally”) that is all it amounts to: an opinion. Even if it is true are you trying to say the same is not true of Clinton supporters?

  106. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    I grew up on that album. Wouldn’t say I was that into it. It was just there. Had a Dapper Dan doll, Mom didn’t want me to watch Underdog because it was sexist, what else… let me think? Probably a lot of things I take for granted. It was a beyond liberal upbringing with a larger than life poster of Karl Marx on Dad’s study door. Students from Africa came over for dinner. For a couple years we hosted a man from Cameroon who was trying to get a work visa. Frankly I have such an expanded perspective that it is natural to see beyond the one dimensional left/right paradigm.

  107. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Well, you can say that almost all who commit sexual assaults are men (fact = 99% of sex offenders are men) and you could say that most sex offenders are white (fact = 6/10 of sex offenders are white). Most white men voted for Trump. Therefore, many sexual assaults are likely to have been committed by Trump supporters. I also hold the opinion that being a Trump supporter makes it more likely for a man to sexually assault a woman because all the men who voted for Trump were ok with that pussy grabbing comment which means that they are ok on some level with sexually assaulting women.

  108. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    I mean I remember FTBYAM being played from earliest childhood. Kind of grew out of it before too long!

  109. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Your parents must be so disappointed in you, hyborian. LOL.

  110. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    According to the census 63% of people in the USA are non-Hispanic Whites so that is about what you would expect. I do not think it is accurate that most white men voted for Trump. White men who voted went 63% for Trump but obviously not all white men voted.

  111. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    My parents are both dead now. If Dad was still alive we would have the most fascinating running dialogue. He was both open-minded and skeptical in the extreme (not an oxymoron) without prejudice. Mom just did not want to know some things outside her comfort zone “You’ll go crazy if you think about all these things too much!” but towards the end I think she began to see the value in my obsession with general knowledge.

  112. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    I tried to find the link, Hyborian. The day after the election, a teenage girl was sexually assaulted at an Ypsi bus stop by man who told her something along the lines of “I have been watching you. Now we can grab whoever we like.” A police report was filed. This was reported on FB. There is no record remaining because the victim was a minor. I have no idea how it was resolved. I am certain that among Hillary supporters, there are also sexual assailants, including her husband. I don’t excuse that. 1 in 4 women report having been sexually assaulted before they were 24, according to the CDC. The difference is that Trump and his supporters excuse and minimize and in many cases encourage license to commit these crimes. And there has been a spike in claims of assault by women. The SPLC does track reports of against women as part of it’s hate crime index. I was wrong about that. (Sexual or violent assault accompanied by statements of gendered verbal abuse–bitch, slut, etc– are not considered hate crimes legally). The SPLC showed that of reported incidents in which Trump was mentioned directly the vast majority (close to 80%) were assaults against women. The link is the same as has been shared 4 times already on this site. You dismissed it out of hand so it seems useless to share it again, but here goes: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/12/16/update-1094-bias-related-incidents-month-following-election
    You question our sources. We question yours. So there’s really no point.
    This is also the site that documents 24 post election assaults on Trump voters post election.
    While false reports of any crimes, including those against women, are common, especially in a politicized environment, my experience has been that most women do not report sexual and domestic violence. Any cop would back me up. They are called to scenes all the time, see the evidence of assault (non-rape assault is more easily evidenced) and the victims do not report. Many complicated reasons for this. False reports are used to delegitimize the situation. But there are always false reports, so they can be used to further anyone’s political viewpoint.

    I am speaking my perspective. You are speaking yours. Any 2 people, looking at the same scenario– much less a group of scenarios– will see different things. It’s that simple. There is no point in having a conversation with someone who refuses to listen. Sometimes I engage Bob, etc because I think they expose themselves in their responses. I believe you have done the same 100x over here. That’s enough for me. I don’t need to ‘win’ any other way.

  113. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    Re:” I do not think it is accurate that most white men voted for Trump. White men who voted went 63% for Trump but obviously not all white men voted.

    Will wonders never cease? Hyporian makes a good point! I can barely believe it but I stand corrected.

    Jean, I engage guys like Hyporian, FF, Bob, etc not because I think there is much hope for them but because I know there is hope for many lurkers.

  114. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– for someone who values his broad apolitical viewpoint, your Trump and anti-Hillary positions seem very pat and par for the course. You have literally not surprised me once with your thinking. It is all positions I’ve heard and links I’ve seen before. Somehow I’m sure you will see that as validation, but you too are no special snowflake.

  115. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    What I see in the left/right paradigm is that over the years the two sides became closer and closer to meet in the center. Trump is really an Independent. The Bush’s and Clintons and Obama have more in common than with Trump. He is a serious threat to upset the apple cart. I do not agree with his Pro-Israel stance and that is the number one compromise I made. I think the racism/sexism critique is over-done. Not nice to say grab ’em by the pussy but I’m not sure that wasn’t a metaphor. It’s really not as bad at all as a President who committed a serious rape or a would-be President who harrassed his victims. You can say that is not true but I find the victim’s statements credible. That is not because of prejudice against the Clintons. I voted for Bill in ’94 and swore never to be fooled by the two party system again. I am betting letting Trump win the primary and ultimately the Presidency truly is a mistake by them and now they are scared shitless. I could be wrong and it was all reverse psychology to get him in but I suppose we will see.

  116. kjc
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:03 am | Permalink

    “Not nice to say grab ’em by the pussy but I’m not sure that wasn’t a metaphor.”

    wow.

  117. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    What I see Jean is I answer every factual claim you make but your replies are full of fallacies. Often you just move on to the next thing when challenged like it didn’t happen at all.

  118. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    No, I think he was actually talking about grabbing women’s genitals but I am curious about what you think that statement could possibly have been a metaphor for in the context in which it was made.

    Hillary Clinton did NOT harass those victims. There is absolutely no credible sources for that. For one thing, she most likely had no idea that any kind of sexual assault occurred as it is pretty unusual for men to come home and say, “How was your day, honey? Mine was great, I raped someone!”. What is terribly sexist though is how many people seem to want to hold Hillary accountable for Bill’s bad behavior.

  119. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:09 am | Permalink

    You don’t think that could be what he meant, kjc? I don’t know and I’m pretty sure no one does unless somehow they were inside his head at the time. Even if it is literal it is still not as bad as hardcore rape as recounted by Juanita Broaddrick. When I see her tell what happened years later I see someone reliving something that did in fact happen. I could be wrong but that is what I see.

  120. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Re:”What I see Jean is I answer every factual claim you make but your replies are full of fallacies. Often you just move on to the next thing when challenged like it didn’t happen at all.

    I can’t speak for her but I often find myself moving on from your “challenges” because they are so bad and so wrong and so absurd that I don’t feel any great need to respond in that I think your “challenge” stands for itself. i.e. it is so bad that I feel anyone reading it can come to the conclusion that you don’t always have a good grasp on reality. I don’t need to make an argument against it because it is so bad that it doesn’t need one.

  121. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– you are confusing the parties with the left and right. The parties occupy the center. They are moderates relative to the more extreme wings of activists on either side pressuring them from the outside (until now…), and yes they are bought into the system, because they run the system. (which is why Trump will represent no real change, and neither would have Bernie. They will either have to work in the system or be ineffective. War powers is the only area where the president can really effect change, and it’s one place where informed moderation is absolutely necessary) What I find interesting is how the extreme right and extreme left, who ostensibly hate one another, are repeating the same narratives. And most of those narratives were planted by entrenched GOP party operatives (well funded by corporate interests) from the 90’s on. It’s endlessly documented. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/us/politics/the-right-aims-at-democrats-on-social-media-to-hit-clinton.html

    I never bought HRC’s ‘vast right wing conspiracy’ claims. But we all got to see it in action this election season. It was a remarkably effective It harnessed into the legitimate frustrations, suspicions and righteousness of the left and led the movement terribly and sadly astray. It permanently wounded HRC, and so the country.

    You voted for Trump to stir up the works. We will get a better and stronger oligarchy as a result and, eventually, economic and foreign policy calamity. And the rich will still be protected and large corporate interests will still be served. I could be wrong. I hope I am. We’ll just need to wait and see.

  122. kjc
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    a metaphor for what? sexual assault?

  123. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    You don’t know that, Lynne and I think that is your prejudice showing. Kathleen Willey comes across very credibly to me. I believe what she says about Hillary going after her.

    It is quite possible Trump was speaking of being bold sexually. It’s slimey to make advances on a woman who doesn’t want it but it is not as bad at all as the Clinton duo’s behavior.

  124. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Right, the two parties are in the center but they are played up to represent a “deep divide.”

  125. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    “I can’t speak for her but I often find myself moving on from your “challenges” because they are so bad and so wrong and so absurd that I don’t feel any great need to respond in that I think your “challenge” stands for itself. i.e. it is so bad that I feel anyone reading it can come to the conclusion that you don’t always have a good grasp on reality. I don’t need to make an argument against it because it is so bad that it doesn’t need one.”

    If you have better arguments you should bring them. Otherwise it is just hot air. Just saying Hillary did not harrass Kathleen Willey and things like that does not not do much. It’s just a flat denial. Say you don’t believe it and that represents an opinion. You could be right or wrong. You don’t know. I THINK she is credible and so is the agent who spoke of the assignment. That’s my assessment.

  126. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    Notice Trump said in the same conversation he tried to fuck her but he failed. It wasn’t yeah, I fucked the shit out of her while she was pleading for me to stop, which is how Juanita Broaddrick described Bill Clinton’s rape. She said he pushed her down and bit her lip to the point of damaging it while she begged him to stop.

  127. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    Gotta go now, folks. Have a good afternoon.

  128. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    Bill Clinton’s past treatment of women does not excuse you from voting for someone whose current attitude towards women is so bad. Not to mention that there are plenty of allegations just as credible as Juanita Broaddrick’s against Donald Trump. Here is the thing though. Bill Clinton was not running for president but the way his sexual proclivities were pinned on Hillary Clinton while similarly horrible instances of Trumps were dismissed is just yet another example of the great sexism of most Trump voters.

  129. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    FWIW, I do think that many of the allegations against Bill Clinton are probably true. I do not think he is still the same person he was then but if he were running for office, I probably would hold it against him. It is the blaming of his wife that is fucked up imho. She probably had NO IDEA and there is certainly no evidence that she knowingly supported a rapist.

  130. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I think you should me more critical of the snopes reports rather than view their links as slam dunks rebuttals. Snopes often bends over backwards to try to convey the message they want to convey.. Are you actually reading their assessments? They are false framing and spinning in a dishonest way– quite a bit more than I am comfortable with.

  131. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Do you have a better source for disputing falsities on the internet? I actually find the work of Snopes to be pretty valuable and while it is true that they sometimes put their spin on things, I have found no reason to dispute their facts. Do you? Can you point to any wrong facts on snopes? Mostly I have found that people who don’t like Snopes are people who are having trouble accepting that something they believed is not true but when you press them about why they think Snopes is lying, they have nothing. I expect you have nothing too.

  132. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    The two snopes entries that Jean posted involve false framing and spin. The first snopes link appeared to trick Jean **and**Warlord (for a second). Is that fact not a proof in itself?

    My point is not that snopes is a bad resource but like you admitted they spin often in accord with their agenda/ bias.

  133. kjc
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    “being bold sexually”

    sounds like a euphemism for “grab ’em by the pussy”.

  134. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    FF, I don’t see it. Let’s just address them one at a time. Where is the spin in *this* article. Be specific. I still expect that you got nothing.

    http://www.snopes.com/injured-trump-supporter/

  135. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Back for a bit. Fully understanding my perspective requires background information on some disturbing activities of people in our government. There is a documentary produced for television I can post that will help begin to bring that understanding. I will post the link if anyone is interested. I warn it will be far out of many of your comfort zones. It does tie in to things I have talked about and we can get to that. Lynne, I think you have say-so around here so with your consent I will post the youtube link.

  136. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 1:29 pm | Permalink

    Didn’t you notice I said I never posted that pic, Lynne? Jean said I did and never retracted it.

  137. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    The documentary is primarily about Republicans by the way.

  138. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Didn’t you notice I said I never posted that pic, Lynne? Jean said I did and never retracted it.

    No, because I wasn’t really paying attention to what you were saying because it was just too absurd and divorced from reality. But you know, I wasn’t talking about that anyways but rather was addressing FF claims that Snopes was spinning things in that specific post. Sometimes things aren’t about you.

  139. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    You don’t need my consent to post anything. I am not sure I will click on your links unless I have some reason to think that what you are linking to has any validity and wont result in me getting a headache from rolling my eyes too much.

  140. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Funny, ’cause what I said is reality and your buddy Jean got it wrong.

  141. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    You might think it is ridiculous or it could open your eyes to important realities. It aired in the UK. It was scheduled to air on the Discovery Channel in the US but was pulled at the last minute. Features former Nebraska state senator and author of The Franklin Coverup John Dekamp.

    Conspiracy of Silence
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBSIDQt5Dwc

  142. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 2:12 pm | Permalink

    Better version with properly synced sound
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K316V75MPpo

  143. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    John *DeCamp*

  144. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    It’s like you enjoy wasting people’s time.

    You already stated your opinion, which aligns with mine: Snopes is a good resource but they spin (often). The extent of the spin is up for debate but you will have to have that debate with someone else.

    We share a general opinion about Snopes Lynne! Do you not find it significant toward supporting our shared opinion, yours and mine, that Jean tried to dismiss one of Warlords clips as false, on the premise that the Snopes article was addressing the clips he offered, when in fact the snopes article only seems to refute the clip offered by Warlord at first and second glance **and that even warlord took pause for a moment, questioning the truth of the clip he shared, when confronted with the Snopes article**?!? Is witnessing this momentarily misinterpretation of Snopes presentation of facts, in this fucking thread, not significant toward supporting our opinion, yours and mine, that Snopes indeed spins?

  145. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 3:02 pm | Permalink

    Ok. Cool, FF

    So why are you being such a dick to Jean about it? Because she made a mistake? Why try to spin that mistake into some discrediting of Snopes, especially when the article you were using as an example was one mostly devoid of the spin that *sometimes* creeps into Snopes articles? The misinterpretation of the Snopes article in this thread has nothing at all to do with the credibility of Snopes.

  146. jean henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 3:22 pm | Permalink

    I apologize for bad links. I was being lazy because I was not learning anything from this conversation, and so I get less rigorous. I should not have bothered to respond. fF I accept your criticism. Please review Hyborian’s many many links with equal discernment in the future. For instance, FF, what are your views on Clinton Cash?

  147. jean henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian– just so we’re clear when I say both parties are inherently moderate relative to activists– each having different and equally critical functions in a functional democracy– I am not saying the two parties are the same. We have learned otherwise. The outcomes are clearly different. To pretend they are the same is lazy simplistic thinking.
    You are an extremist, so you don’t care. For the rest of us the difference is critical.

  148. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    All I did was post videos of dozens of Trump supporters being beaten and subjected to other abuse. If you have a hard time learning from that then whose fault is it, Jean?

  149. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    I think ad hominem comments, which I do not engage in are lazy and simplistic. Case in support of my point: there was a grand total of one nay out of the entire House and Senate in the Authorization of the Use of Military Force Against Terrorism Act which was used by Bush to go to war in Afghanistan.

  150. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 3:50 pm | Permalink

    *Terrorists*

  151. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    “I tried to find the link, Hyborian. The day after the election, a teenage girl was sexually assaulted at an Ypsi bus stop by man who told her something along the lines of “I have been watching you. Now we can grab whoever we like.” A police report was filed. This was reported on FB. There is no record remaining because the victim was a minor. I have no idea how it was resolved. I am certain that among Hillary supporters, there are also sexual assailants, including her husband. I don’t excuse that. 1 in 4 women report having been sexually assaulted before they were 24, according to the CDC. The difference is that Trump and his supporters excuse and minimize and in many cases encourage license to commit these crimes. And there has been a spike in claims of assault by women. The SPLC does track reports of against women as part of it’s hate crime index. I was wrong about that. (Sexual or violent assault accompanied by statements of gendered verbal abuse–bitch, slut, etc– are not considered hate crimes legally). The SPLC showed that of reported incidents in which Trump was mentioned directly the vast majority (close to 80%) were assaults against women. The link is the same as has been shared 4 times already on this site. You dismissed it out of hand so it seems useless to share it again, but here goes: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/12/16/update-1094-bias-related-incidents-month-following-election
    You question our sources. We question yours. So there’s really no point.
    This is also the site that documents 24 post election assaults on Trump voters post election.
    While false reports of any crimes, including those against women, are common, especially in a politicized environment, my experience has been that most women do not report sexual and domestic violence. Any cop would back me up. They are called to scenes all the time, see the evidence of assault (non-rape assault is more easily evidenced) and the victims do not report. Many complicated reasons for this. False reports are used to delegitimize the situation. But there are always false reports, so they can be used to further anyone’s political viewpoint.
    I am speaking my perspective. You are speaking yours. Any 2 people, looking at the same scenario– much less a group of scenarios– will see different things. It’s that simple. There is no point in having a conversation with someone who refuses to listen. Sometimes I engage Bob, etc because I think they expose themselves in their responses. I believe you have done the same 100x over here. That’s enough for me. I don’t need to ‘win’ any other way.”

    David Wilcox was seriously beaten and car-jacked in Chicago on Nov. 9th. I have posted the video of the beating during which a female can be heard shouting “You voted for Trump? Daaammn.” He says one of them yelled “That’s one of those White boy Trump supporters.” Four people were arrested for car-jacking. I am going to bet the beating and car-jacking is a more serious crime than any of the hate crimes counted by the SPLC. They don’t even have an anti-white part of the graph which if what Wilcox says is accurate is a component of these crime.

  152. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 5:04 pm | Permalink

    *these crimes*

  153. Jean Henry
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian– compare these two statements please:
    “To pretend they are the same is lazy simplistic thinking.”
    “I think ad hominem comments, which I do not engage in are lazy and simplistic.”

    Is there any real difference?

    I supported my assessment of your reductive arguments. That was not an ad hominem attack. If it was, so was yours.

    Agnes Martin said “there are only two directions: Inside and Outside.” This conversation proves that theory.

  154. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 7:15 pm | Permalink

    I consider calling me an extremist to be ad hominem.

  155. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 7:17 pm | Permalink

    You gave another opinion. I gave an example that supports my statement.

  156. Lynne
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    Why? I am an extremist on certain issues (UBI anyone?). It isn’t an insult.

  157. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    You can call yourself that on whatever you want. You said “You are an extremist, so you don’t care. For the rest of us the difference is critical.” I do not agree with that and do not consider myself an extremist.

  158. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

    I mean Jean said that, not you, Lynne.

  159. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 8:54 pm | Permalink

    Copies of this on youtube are being taken down. A minute into it I am extremely disturbed. This is horrible.

    Facebook live of a assault/kidnapping in Chicago (full video)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ2FL7kctYg

  160. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    Oh my god it is real.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/violent-assault-live-streamed-on-facebook-in-chicago-police-say/

  161. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 4, 2017 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    Superintendent Eddie Johnson said they are still investigating and if the facts lead them in that direction, they will file hate crime charges.

    “Kids make stupid mistakes, I shouldn’t call them kids, they are legally adults, but they are young adults and the make stupid decisions,” Duffin said of the vulgar remarks about Trump and white people. “That certainly will be part of whether or not we seek a hate crime, determine whether or not this is sincere or stupid ranting and raving.”

    …Johnson said the incident doesn’t appear to be politically motivated.

    “I think part of it is just stupidity,” Johnson said. “People ranting about something they think might make a headline. At this point we don’t have anything concrete to point (toward a hate crime) but we’ll keep investigating and let the facts guide us on how this concludes.”

    Johnson said he can’t connect what happened in the video to Trump talking and tweeting about violence in Chicago.

    “If you looked at the video, it was just stupidity,” Johnson said.

  162. Jean Henry
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 9:19 am | Permalink

    Hyborian– I think extremist represents your political position as you defined it. You are out on the edge and waiting for revolutionary change from any quarter. Most significantly, you abhor moderation.

    This really is pointless. Have a great life Hyborian. Get out of the basement. It’s snowy and beautiful. There’s work to be done.

  163. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    Reading your replies I don’t think you understand my comments. I treat you and everyone here with respect and always refrain from personal criticism. Many of your posts do not have the same quality.

  164. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    What is the abusiveness displayed in the Chicago “abduction” rooted in?

  165. EL
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    It looks like a hate crime to me.

    http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/227116738-story

  166. Jean Henry
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian– I’m not here to be nice. I’m here for discourse. I prefer it be direct and good humored. Nice is equivocation and it only serves to dilute points and pretend to agreement where there is none. I don’t comment on social media to feel validated or supported. I hope to learn something. I haven’t yet from you. I’m sorry if that offends you. Maybe I don’t read your posts and endless links closely enough. I find your logic warped and your posts off-putting. Many here feel the same way about m,e and I accept that. You aren’t here to be nice either, and your self-declaration of your own superior reason and fundamental decency comes off as gas lighting.

  167. Lynne
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    I think that incident in Chicago probably qualifies as a hate crime.

  168. site admin
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    According to the ABC affiliate in Chicago, hate crime charges were filed.

    http://abc7chicago.com/news/4-charged-with-hate-crimes-in-torture-of-teen-in-facebook-live-video/1687517/

  169. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    I wonder why something like this would happen?

  170. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t tell you to be nice, Jean. I am interested in discussing issues, not flinging shit at people which is what you are doing. That is why I stick to the issues. If you can show where I said I am superior to anyone in any way then do it.

  171. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 5:58 pm | Permalink

    There is another video that I have not watched where they made him drink out of a toilet. For whatever reason they crossed over into sustained sadistic behavior. I think Obama should make a statement about violence and abuse towards whites and Trump supporters of all colors being every bit as unacceptable as towards minorities.

  172. Jcp2
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    https://theundefeated.com/features/hidden-figures-and-the-power-of-pragmatism/

  173. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    Good movie?

  174. Jean Henry
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    The incident in Chicago was obviously reprehensible and qualifies as a hate crime, Charges have been filed as such. It and the 24 other attacks on Trump supporters do not somehow even the scales making all Trump supporters the sole or even primary victims of the current escalation in violence. That Trump supporters are also victims, does not make crimes against ethnic minorities and women– which you have denied– any less troublesome. If one detests hate crimes, and most Americans do, one detests all hate crimes. I’m not sure what kind of point you are trying to make Hyborian. Humans are fucked up. Race is a construct. Everyone is capable of great violence. We all need to be vigilant and de-escalate whenever possible. This is worth posting again.
    http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/10/story_of_ann_arbor_teenager_wh.html

    I’m sure we all hope we would behave like this brave young woman under similar circumstances. I think most people wouldn’t. Maybe this time of great anger and divisiveness will lead to a return to advocacy and civility. Maybe the pendulum will swing the other way. We’ll see. Politics certainly doesn’t help anyone become their best selves.

  175. Jean Henry
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    Thanks JCP. “Besides communicating about the power of common interests, Hidden Figures demonstrates why sneering dismissively at “identity politics” or using the term as a pejorative amounts to little more than hogwash. When you stand in the way of progress for women and people of color, you are only hobbling yourself. Hidden Figures offers a beautiful illustration of how hollow the call to “Make America Great Again” really rings, because an America without black women isn’t just an America without the women who birthed, nursed, and raised so many white children at the expense of their own. There will be no white ethnostate like the one white nationalist Richard Spencer dreams of creating because an America without black women is an America without its most educated demographic in the workforce. It is an America devoid of a group, who instead of pouting and throwing hissy fits as automation threatens to make its jobs obsolete, instead picks itself up, dusts itself off, and answers with steely resolve and a thirst for more education, as Dorothy Vaughn did.”

  176. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 5, 2017 at 11:39 pm | Permalink

    I already proved there are way more serious violent attacks on Trump supporters than that. There is no way to keep saying that number without lying. You have to stop saying it or be a 100% proven liar.

  177. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:22 am | Permalink

    Is it true that black women are the most educated demographic in America?

  178. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 7:05 am | Permalink

    That reviewer does something really bad by somehow conflating Trump’s slogan with the views of Richard Spencer, the previously unknown brown-shirted neo-nazi who was thrust into the spotlight recently in an obvious attempt to smear Trump. They are seriously trying to say Trump wants to get rid of African American women and presumably men because of that sieg-heiling idiot?

  179. Jean Henry
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    FF– Black women recently became the demographic to have the most degrees per capita in the US. The Alt right disputes the statistics by looking at a different slice of the data– the entire population. Given that access to higher ed was limited for women until the 70’s obviously a big chunk of women, of all races, do not have higher ed degrees. It could be argues that the article states the finding wrong, but Black women currently are earning degrees at a higher rate than any other demo by race/gender. (Just trying to get in front of the inevitable Hyborian stream of alt right dispute…) Here is the link:https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72

    Hybroain– Trump is an openly racist and sexist and islamaphobic pig. Yes, we think that and his own words back that up. Many of his supporters acknowledge that he says bigoted things but they dismiss them. Many of his opponents do not. It’s maybe not fair to equate him with a neo-nazi who supports him, but we’ll see. The argument may have been better made just relying on Trump’s own bigoted statements. But yes, we believe that. You minimize Trump’s bigotry. We don’t. That’s a gulf in perception, you will not overcome no matter how much time you spend here..

  180. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 10:08 am | Permalink

    Does the link you provided support the claim that black women are currently earning degrees at a higher rate than any other demographic?

  181. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    Jean, you state opinions as if they are facts. You don’t even seem to know the difference. If anyone is gaslighting it is you. I do not represent the alt-right. You can think I do all you want but that does not make it so. I don’t feel a need to obsessively categorize like you. I just try to pay attention to everything. You have said things about me that you can’t back up. The way I see it if we can’t support what we have said we have to shut the fuck up. You just continue on your trajectory as if it doesn’t matter.

    I am part Arabic and have Muslim relatives so Islamophobia was a concern in this election. I did not see it. It is true that there are Islamic extremists who want to harm Americans and it is reasonable to worry that some of them could get into the country as refugees. European countries have a major problem with refugee crime right now. The lorry attack in Berlin claimed by the ‘IS’ (not sure I believe that all terrorist groups are legit but that the point still stands; SOMEONE was responsible) is one of the more devastating examples. That should not happen here.

    Regarding black women if your interpretation of the data is correct then I think that is great. Why would you think I would have a problem with that?

  182. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    FF, are you really so lazy that you can’t click the link to find out? Sheesh! That is so annoying that even though I know the answer to your question (because I clicked the link and spent *FIVE SECONDS* superficially scanning the article), I am not going to tell you.

  183. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    Shaun King sums up exactly how I feel about that Chicago incident

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-don-chicago-white-assault-case-blm-movement-article-1.2935825

    warning: this website autoloads the video of the incident which may be disturbing to some.

  184. Facts?
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    FF knows. What’s the answer Lynne?
    https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2016/06/07/no-black-women-are-not-the-most-educated-group-in-the-us/

  185. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    There is data showing otherwise about education. I don’t know if it is an alt right blog where it was posted and can’t see how that matters. The only thing that matters regarding a factual assertion is if the data is true or not. It says 23.2% of Black women hold a BA degree or higher (ages 25-54), according to the 2010-2014 American Community Survey. 38.1% of White women had the same degrees and 55.4% of Asian/PI women had them.

    Not that I think education or lack thereof makes anyone better or worse than anyone else. Muhammed Ali was illiterate but he was a hero not just for boxing but for putting his freedom on the line to protest the Viet Nam war.

  186. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

    I think that is an interesting claim that black people are prosecuted more for racist crimes than whites. Were the people in this video shouting “They white – beat they ass” and proceeding to do so prosecuted?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lvCG2qag78

    In this time of live-streaming media I think it would be suspicious if arrests had not been made quickly in Chicago the other day. Who thinks they can do such a thing and get away with it? I find it shocking that there was even a question of if it was a hate crime or not. All violent crimes should be prosecuted and this particularly egregious one should be prosecuted as such.

  187. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    I am part Arabic and have Muslim relatives so Islamophobia was a concern in this election. I did not see it.

    you didn’t find the rhetoric of having a Muslim database disturbing especially when combined with talk about the Japanese internment camps were constitutional and thus similar camps could be set up again? Because I found that deeply disturbing even though I still think it is unlikely.

    Who thinks they can do such a thing and get away with it?

    Unfortunately a lot of people, many of whom are in positions of authority such as police officers. More unfortunate is that they are right. They can commit horrible crimes, including murder and get away with it e.g. George Zimmerman

  188. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    I don’t have time to go researching it but it is widely accepted (because there is a LOT of research to support it) that black people who commit crimes are much more likely to be brought to justice than white people who commit crimes. Only racist white people deny this, I assume because they don’t want to acknowledge that an injustice exists.

  189. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Drug crimes, for sure. I think you have to support it about violent crimes. Making assertions without backing it up is just to use another phrase pissing in the wind.

    On Chicago kidnap/torture Symone Sanders, former Press Secratary for Bernie Sanders does not think it is necessarily a hate crime to do what they did while screaming “Fuck Trump, boy. Fuck WHITE people, boy.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8S1kBxW4Og

  190. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    What did Trump actually say about a database of Americans or immigrants for that matter. Exact quotes, please.

  191. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    Blacks appear to commit nearly 50% of murders, the same as Whites but they are only 13% of the population compared to 63% for non-Hispanic Whites. There are socio-economic reasons for that I am sure of it. It is not racist to point it out. It’s just a fact. It is so interesting how obsessed some people are with race and trying to prove something about it based on their assumptions.

  192. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 1:15 pm | Permalink

    That would include Hispanics as White actually.

  193. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

    Facts?,

    I did not read the specific article you linked but I already knew that claims made by The Root, UPworthy, Salon, and Good were goofy. The review provided by JCP2 echoed that bit of nonsense. However, my intuition tells me that Jean is correct when she said that the black woman demographic earned degrees at a higher rate than any other demographic within the specified time period. Which of course is entirely different than the claim that black women are the most educated demographic….

    Lynne,

    Here is the thing, without importing population and doing some math and comparing he groups it is not just unlikely that you were able to process the data Jean provided very quickly like you claimed, it is *impossible* to justify the claim she made by using only that data set.

  194. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    See my comment referring to the same statistics in Facts’ link, FF. I don’t see why it should matter. I just like to be accurate. I guess that is racist around here.

  195. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    It should be a cinch to come up with Trump’s exact quotes about establishing a Muslim registry. From memory he was asked about that (not sure if the question pertained to Americans; I don’t think so) and said “We are going to be looking at a lot of things.” He proposed “extreme vetting” of Muslim immigrants “until we can figure out what is going on” to avoid a Trojan Horse scenario which may be wise. Probably there should be more women and children than adult men from war-torn countries like Syria if we are to avoid a situation like what is happening in several European countries right now.

  196. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    77.9% of the country is White including Hispanics to clear up that fact.

  197. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    What did Trump actually say about a database of Americans or immigrants for that matter. Exact quotes, please.

    “I didn’t suggest a database-a reporter did. We must defeat Islamic terrorism & have surveillance, including a watch list, to protect America” -Donald Trump

    This one is my favorite because it illustrates something about Trump that I find particularly interesting. He can lie and contradict himself in the same sentence. So while it may be true that before this tweet of his, he hadn’t yet suggested a database and Muslim registry, he goes on to suggest exactly that later in the sentence. Unless he somehow thinks that a watchlist and surveillance aren’t essentially the same thing as a database. The main difference being that a database incorporates specific technology but a watchlist doesn’t. Yet somehow I don’t think he means some watchlist printed on paper. The point is that he is advocating making a list of Muslims in order to put them under additional surveillance.

  198. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    FF, yeah, I think Jean explained that she wasn’t talking about the entire population. She is pretty specific that it is degrees per capita and also that she is not talking about the population as a whole but rather, more recent graduates/enrollees. But just because you may need to read what she said again, here it is!

    Black women recently became the demographic to have the most degrees per capita in the US. The Alt right disputes the statistics by looking at a different slice of the data– the entire population. Given that access to higher ed was limited for women until the 70’s obviously a big chunk of women, of all races, do not have higher ed degrees. It could be argues that the article states the finding wrong, but Black women currently are earning degrees at a higher rate than any other demo by race/gender.

  199. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    Presumably he is not talking about American citizens or Muslims in general but terrorists or suspected terrorists, Lynne. Obviously this type of surveillance has been going on for a long time so no I do not think it is shades of WWII internment camps of Japanese Americans at all.

    How are the numbers I posted not per capita? 23% of Black women, 38% of White Women, 55% of Asian women. You don’t understand what you are talking about.

  200. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:21 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    I believe that Jean and I are on the same page. Based upon her response, I believe she understood why the statement offered by the reviewer, The Root, etc were false. She offered information and a link that gives good information but that fails to directly justify her claim. My math intuition and rough idea of our population makeup makes me suspect that Jean’s claim is true **which I already stated**. More information is needed and someone would need to take the 10 minutes to do the math and compare the demographic groups.

    You claimed that you were able to digest and justify Jean’s claim by glancing at the linked article. Although you are wrong, I am not calling you a liar. I just don’t think you understand the original objection or the secondary inquiry that followed from the original question.

    Jean gets it. I get it.

  201. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:28 pm | Permalink

    In what universe does that make sense?

  202. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Neither Jean or Lynne get it at all.

  203. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    I read quite a bit of back and forth between Trump and different reporters regarding a “database”.

    It is like listening to Abbot and Costello “Who’s on first”.

    I think that different people have different notions of the definition of a “database”–without questioning how a database, which is seriously the most mundane imaginable, might be applied in horrible and reasonable ways.

  204. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

    We all have our moments.

  205. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Sorry Warlord,

    My comment does not make sense? Or Lynne’s?

  206. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    oops, regarding “database” it should read: “….which by itself is the most mundane thing imaginable…”

  207. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    No. Look at the PER CAPITA data Facts and I posted. It’s very clear.

  208. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Neither that particular comment by you or any of the comments by Lynne and Jean on that topic make sense. I’m surprised because it seems you usually do, Frosted. It’s okay. Just take a minute to read the percentages of people in the US with degrees by race and sex.

  209. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Cool. Yea, I have no idea what Lynne is trying to say. The distinction between expressing the numbers as a percentage or per capita is irrelevant. I assume Lynne is trying to say something else and is confused with the definition of some the terms she is using.

  210. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

    Per capita is necessarily going to be a percentage within each group.

  211. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    2 few different truth claims are floating around:

    1) black women are the most educated demographic

    2) black women obtained more degrees than any other demographic between 2003 and 2013.

    #1 truth claim is obviously false and it has been proven false by you and “facts?”

    #2 truth claim was introduced by Jean when she was questioned about #1 truth claim which was introduced in this thread via a linked article by jcp2. Jean did a good job of refining a false statement into something that might actually be true. Jean linked an incomplete data set that might help to prove the truth or falsity of #2 truth claim.

  212. Frosted Flakes
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    Expressed:

    .23 degrees per capita amongst black females.

    .38 degrees per capita amongst white females.

    and so on….

  213. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 5:06 pm | Permalink

    Got it. I admit that I didn’t do the math. I guess there still is a need for affirmative action in college enrollment then.

  214. Lynne
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 5:10 pm | Permalink

    My mistake was assuming that you hadn’t even clicked the link because usually when one has problems with the data presented in a link, they explain what the problem is.

  215. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    I explained it well with clear information. Why not just admit maybe you ought to pay closer attention? That would cut out a lot of bullshit.

  216. stupid hick
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 5:32 pm | Permalink

    What’s the point you’re trying to make? Please explain again in terms a simple hick can understand.

  217. Facts?
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    And then this just makes it all the more interesting. Even within groups that are allied there are conflicts. It’s like a Russian nesting doll of hate.
    http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/01/kim-burrell-ellen-degeneres-hidden-figures

    The point is that no one can decide if it’s an elephant, a snake or a tree. Or maybe that we built this huge tower but now we are unable to converse with one another.

  218. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    You mean overall, stupid hick? Or were you asking about something specific? In my reply before your question I was talking about a post that I can’t really see the relevance of even if it were true. I answered it just to illustrate a pattern of certain people posting un-factual things as if they are fact. It’s kind of crazy to waste that much time on something like that but here I am.

  219. stupid hick
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    I’m sorry, I have no idea what’s going on. Carry on I guess.

  220. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

    The good points have been buried in an avalanche of bullcrap.

  221. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 6, 2017 at 11:37 pm | Permalink

    “All Hell would break loose.”

    This is the truth.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=591AH6Mm28I

  222. wobblie
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 5:16 am | Permalink

    Hyborian Warlord stated that “Muhammed Ali was illiterate” like most of what he says it is a distortion of the truth. Ali was not illiterate (the word has a specific meaning) he suffered from dyslexicia.

  223. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    What do you think I distort, wobblie? Be specific. No generalizations. Dyslexia and illiteracy are not mutually exclusive for one thing.

  224. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    I hadn’t heard that before about Ali’s dyslexia. I would appreciate a simple informative post about it. Then I would just be like “Thanks for letting me know. I didn’t know that.”

  225. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    My point still stands anyway. He was uneducated but had nothing to do with his quality as a person.

  226. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    but *that* had nothing

  227. Jcp2
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    I learned thirty years ago that it is foolish to scold. I have enough trouble overcoming my own limitations without fretting over the fact that God has not seen fit to distribute evenly the gift of intelligence.

  228. jean henry
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian– I am happy not to ‘get’ what you believe in. None of it is new or surprising to me. We have all heard every point you have made before from others. I just don’t buy it and think your beliefs are seated in bigotry. I understand that you likely believe that about me and I am totally fine with that. I’m sure we could find other things to talk about but I’m never going to concede to your viewpoint in the way You would like. It’s not for lack of listening. Like I said none of this is new. I’m simply to bored of your point of view to argue any more.
    Here is a link I don’t entirely agree with or entirely disagree with. It does set the lake on fire though. http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2017/01/fuck-you-rural-elitists.html?m=1

  229. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    What the hell are you talking about, Jean? I’m talking about facts, not beliefs. It has nothing to do with anyone’s viewpoint. You haven’t heard a damn thing. You are obviously trying to bait me by calling me that shit. The reality is you say so many things that are not only wrong, they are 180 degrees opposite of the truth. That is a fact and I can back it up unlike you who just lashes out/tries to diminish/puts down the other when you are wrong. See, I don’t base my outlook on what I want emotionally anymore. I graduated from that shit a long time ago.

  230. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 9:34 pm | Permalink

    I guarantee you can’t find one bigoted thing I have ever said because I don’t say things like that. On the other hand you say idiotic things every day. If they weren’t you would be able to back them up with true facts, which you never do. In putdowns you blow me away. In telling the truth you never do.

  231. jean henry
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    The singular lesson of the 20th century was that ‘logic’ and ‘reason’ applied to solving societal problems from a place of authoritarian power produces very very bad results. I’m sure you believe you have things really figured out. I’m sure Trump believes the same. Doesn’t make you right.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/01/california-sterilization-records/511718/?utm_source=atltw

  232. jean henry
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

    I do t expect you ever to be able to see the bigotry in which your politics is seated. I’m certain you aren’t a bigot, meaning you truly want equity across the board. I think most people do. That doesn’t mean you are right or that what you believe doesn’t rely on prejudice. There’s been plenty of evidence right in this thread. I’m sure you have no will or capacity to see that. I’m not interested in trying to persuade you. Good luck.

  233. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    I don’t believe in authoritarianism so that is a strange criticism. You know for a fact my ideal is anarchy. Obama is authoritarian as hell (more executive orders than any president.) He dropped 26,000 bombs this year alone. Voting for Trump is damage control against Clinton who threatened actions that could start war with Russia. Even as we speak the lamest duck is sending thousands of troops and tanks to the Russian border in his last two weeks. You believe in authoritarianism, not me. As for logic and reason, combined with compassion there is no greater force for good and that is what I believe in.

  234. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 10:11 pm | Permalink

    You can’t come up with one thing. It’s funny you said I engage in gaslighting because I have never encountered anyone whose behavior fits the definition of that term more than you, Jean Henry.

  235. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 7, 2017 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    You haven’t made one comment on the shockingly racist violent abuse of a white man yet you tout a list of hate crimes by the fraudulent (look it up) SPLC that consists of nothing even close to that. If there is anything nearly as bad then what is it? You are the bigot, not me.

  236. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 1:22 am | Permalink

    Joe Biden slimes on young girls.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd8o3WUKP8M

  237. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    I told you you will never win a factual argument with me, Jean. You are too wrong too much of the time. What the Atlantic article you posted is speaking of aligns with YOUR political beliefs, not mine. Presumably you are pro-choice. Margaret Sanger is the mother of planned parenthood and was an advocate of sterilization.

    https://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/webedition/app/documents/show.php?sangerDoc=240655.xml
    “In the early days of my campaign for birth control education I listed sterilization as the one permanent, harmless and safe method which, once accepted and accomplished, the problem of ↑a contraceptive↓ method was solved.

    As regarding new ideas, there was and still is much misunderstanding regarding sterilization. Men in particular are apt to shun the idea thinking it may render him less potent sexually. That idea is erroneous and false and should be corrected. Sterilization is not to be confused with castration, an operation in which sex glands are removed and the individual is definitely left impotent or sexless. But Sterilization does in no way interfere with sexual potency and in all cases recorded a fully satisfactory married life continues. It should be the responsibility of our Public Health officials to inform themselves regarding inmates of our institution and it should be their public duty to see that inmates applying for parole should be ↑voluntarily↓ sterilized before they leave the Institution. A proper sympathetic lecture to these inmates regarding the benefits of sterilization would bring their consent and acquiescence to the operation ↑as has been shown in reports in California. ↓ Mrs. Sanger ↑I want to↓ congratulate the Federation on its splendid educational campaigns awakening the public as to the danger to our civilization to allow the perpetuation of hereditary diseases to the innocent unborn children. The regular methods of contraception are used easily by parents whose intelligence and responsibility are adequate to its application but sterilization is a better method in cases where the persons mentality is not adequate for the usually technique necessary in regular birth control methods. It also should be used when inheritable defects of heart or damage to heart, lungs, or kidneys make motherhood dangerous. There is also an inheritable blindness and other diseases when parents-to-be should be informed of the dangers which may be passed on to innocent children. Sterilization would ↑should↓ be advised and recommended by the medical advisors. Society has the right to expect our Public Health officials to protect it from transmissable diseases just as it protects us today from contagious diseases like diphtheria, measles, small pox, etc.

  238. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    CBS fake news radio deceptively implies the Chicago kidnap/torture is white on black crime by Trump supporters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scKFBwZv3uo

  239. stupid hick
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

    Lol! Jean, it should be clear by now you will never win a factual argument with Hyborian Warlord!

  240. stupid hick
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    Hyborian Warlord, lay off the YouTube, everyone knows all the best facts are on twitter and facebook!

  241. stupid hick
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Liberal hobbits, are you ready to try the wood alcohol and poison ivy ideas yet?

  242. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    Yeah, cuz direct video evidence ain’t as good as bullshitty opinions ‘n misinturpidid inflammation.

  243. stupid hick
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    Good luck then. Nothing I can tell you, if you buy the narrative. Say, one thing I did learn from YouTube is that with the correct technique (and I assume many, many, attempts) it is in fact possible to bowl a strike using an ordinary ping pong ball.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj8timZ_Y5I

  244. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    I don’t have a narrative because I’m not telling a story. I am paying attention to reality unlike almost everyone who posts here.

  245. Jean Henry
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

    Your name is Hyborian Warlord and you don’t have a narrative.

  246. Hyborian Warlord
    Posted January 8, 2017 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    Durr

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