Election Day live blog

electionliveblog

8:00 AM… A friend asked what we should tell our children this morning. This was my response.

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7:30 AM… Best case scenario. People who have been waiting on the sidelines with information on Trump, thinking that he’d likely lose, now come forward. This results in bipartisan impeachment proceedings. A weakened Pence administration is contained by the Democrats, who retake both houses of Congress in the mid-term elections, fueled in part by the votes of former Trump supporters, who are pissed that, before leaving office, Trump repealed Obamacare, leaving them and their families without insurance.

7:00 AM… I’m at a loss for words right now. I knew, when I went to bed last night, that this would likely be the outcome, but I still allowed myself to imagine that things could change as votes continued to be counted in Detroit and Philadelphia. And I delayed picking up my computer and checking for as long as I could this morning. But now I know… Now I know the magnitude of what we’re up against. And, to be honest, I’m feeling a lot of despair. I know I said last night that we could organize and fight, but the reality is I’m not terribly hopeful. I feel like I just watched the American people collectively vote to bring not just the American experiment to an end, but our entire species. And, for what it’s worth, I don’t think that’s an overstatement. Given what Trump has said in the past, and the fact that he now has all three branches of government behind him, I think it’s fair to say that we’ve missed the window to address global climate change. Now it’s just a matter of watching it all play out. More environmental refugees. More wars over water, land and food. More despair. More poverty. More fear. The cycle, I’m afraid, is just beginning. I hope I’m wrong, but I know that I’m not. We’re in too deep of a hole to ever get out. Trump won with no ground game whatsoever. He didn’t have to drag people to the polls. They went willingly. This is what the American people want. They don’t want to be led by real adults with actual plans for addressing complex issues. They want punchy slogans on brightly colored hats. They just want to be told by a reality television personality that America will be “great again”. And we have no one to blame but ourselves. We’re all complicit. We sat on our asses when we should have been in the streets, and this is where it’s brought us. And, sadly, it’s not just that United States that will be effected. No, we just fucked the entire world.

12:36 AM… We’ve had over 20 years to fight back against the post-truth society. We didn’t do it. And this is what it’s gotten us. This is the world that we’ve created.

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12:20 AM… Alright. Let’s finish our drinks, have our angry outbursts, and get serious.

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11:45 PM… I enjoyed talking on WEMU tonight. I liked it so much, I’m going to write to them tomorrow and see if they’ll simulcast the Saturday Six Pack. Given the situation we’re facing, I think I’m going to need a bigger audience.

11:30 PM… OK, so I guess you could say I’be been radicalized.

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10:30 PM… I’m now at Sidetrack, talking with two women at the bar. According to them, they were here on election night 2012, and things were different. They said people cared then. They said people were huddled around the television. This time, not so much. They told me they were just at Aubree’s and all of the televisions were tuned to hockey. Priorities, right?

9:10 PM… I’m back at the Clinton office on Michigan Ave, watching CNN, and worrying about Florida…. Jesus, they’re showing Michigan in red. I do hear, though, people are still waiting to vote at UM and in Detroit, so I’m not giving up hope yet.

8:30 PM… The Detroit Party Marching Band outside of DejaVu.

8:00 PM… Awaiting a speech by D’Real Graham, candidate for Washtenaw County Prosecutor at Bee Roll’s 23 North Washington space. The Detroit Party Marching Band is playing outside. It’s lovely.

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7:26 PM… I thought I should move this comment from iRobert up to the front page: “No networks have called South Carolina, even though the polls there closed 15 minutes ago and exit polls should have shown Trump winning it easily. This suggests Trump is in much worse trouble than expected there. This could be the first sign of disaster for Trump beyond what anyone expected.”

6:16 PM… Sadly, I saw this after casting my ballot… Man of god, convicted conman, and end-times stew salesman Jim Bakker announced today that, if Clinton wins, this will be our last Christmas.

6:16 PM… My friend Ian, who lives in downtown Ann Arbor, just wrote to say that he’s already been in line for three hours, waiting to vote at the Michigan Union. That’s him on the right, with the melting face. “A girl near me in line fainted 15 minutes ago,” he says. If you’re int he area around the Michigan Union and have some food to hand out, I’m sure they’d appreciate it. He just tole me that someone brought pizza and bottled water, but I’m sure they can use more.

ianvoting

The longest I’ve ever waiting to vote was for Clinton, when I was a student at the University of Michigan. I loved every minute of it.

6:09 PM… I just left the basement phone bank at 418 West Michigan Avenue and there are still a few seats free. So, if you’ve always wanted to call up Democrats across the state and urge them to get out and vote before the 8:00 deadline, here’s your chance.

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4:29 PM… Something to think about as you stand in line, according to The Nation, “there Are 868 Fewer Places to Vote in 2016 Because the Supreme Court Gutted the Voting Rights Act.”

4:21 PM… It’s being reported that Trump was booed at his polling place. It’s been reported that one person yelled, “New York hates you,” which is apparently true, according to my friends from New York.. Trump then proceeded to look over his wife’s shoulder to make sure she was voting for him.

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4:13 PM… So, WEMU had this idea that, tonight, to supplement their national NPR coverage of the election, they’d reach out to a few local people to get their take on how things are going. And it would appear that I’m to be one of those people, along with CivCity’s Mary Morgan and EMU professor Edward Sidlow. So, the question is, when the folks at WEMU call, where should I be? Where in Ypsi will people be watching the results? [I’m told that they’ll be calling me at 9:15, 10:15, and 11:15.]

4:11 PM… Remember, in Michigan, as long as you’re in line by 8:00 PM, you can vote.

4:04 PM… I haven’t seen or heard of any local instances of voter intimidation, but, just in case, here are numbers that you can call, should you see anything that doesn’t look like.

voting-hotlines

3:20 PM… Our friend Katrease Stafford just posted an article on the Free Press site about a polling place fight in Ypsi Township between a Trump supporter and a Clinton supporter. Hopefully it’s an isolated incident… Here’s the video.

[note: It’s not completely clear, from what I’m hearing now, that this incident was between a Trump supporter and a Clinton supporter. I’m hearing now that one of the women was standing out outside the polling place, advocating on behalf of Green Party candidates, when this transpired.]

2:00 PM… Based on absentee ballot returns, which are apparently up 9% over previous years, the folks at MLive are reporting that, “Michigan may set voter turnout record today.” Of course, the rain has’t really started in earnest yet, though.

1:00 PM… I just met Ruth Kraut, the woman behind the blog Ann Arbor School Musings, at the Ypsi Democratic campaign office. She said the Ann Arbor office was too busy, so she came to see if we could use help, and ended up canvassing with an EMU grad student who’d been looking for a partner. I know I said it before, but it’s awesome to see so many people coming and going through the Michigan Ave office, all pitching in to both get Clinton into the White House, and keep Trump out. It’s heartening to know just how many people in this community really care about the issues enough not only to vote, but actually pitch in.

12:30 PM… I stopped by the campaign office after voting and picked up a canvassing shift with a young woman who just recently moved to Ypsi from Indiana named Deveny. And we hit a neighborhood off of Ecorse. All in all, it was a good experience, although one person did yell at me through a closed door, “Get off my porch, and go away.” Otherwise, things were cool. Lots and lots of happy people telling me how excited they were to vote.

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8:25 AM… Taking advantage of the time I’ve got in line, I start writing to those progressive types I know who I know who aren’t voting for Clinton. These exchanges resulted in the following post.

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After posting this, a friend followed up with a link to an article by John Halle and Noam Chomsky titled An Eight Point Brief for LEV (Lesser Evil Voting), which I proceeded to read it line. If you haven’t yet, it’s well worth checking out, and sharing with any Jill Stein fans you might know.

8:10 AM… I’m not sure why, but they changed things around this year at our polling place, and sent us upstairs into the Lutheran church where I vote.

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Oh, if you’re in Ward 2, Precinct 4 and Ward 3, Precinct 1, you should have received notice that your polling place is no longer the Lutheran church where I vote. Apparently, you’ve been reassigned to the EMU Honors College at 511 West Forest Ave. It happened in front of me, so I didn’t see it, but I heard that a female police officer, after waiting for an hour to vote, was told that she was at the wrong polling place, due to this last minute change. Im hoping that she didn’t give up, but went to her new polling plans to wait in line again, but I’m not sure what happened. I reported it to a number of people, though, and they assured me that they put signs up, so people waiting in line are now aware of the change.

7:40 AM… My polling place was full by 7:30. Here’s what I shared on Facebook. I thought I was about 40 people back, but that was before I realized just how much farther the line continued inside. I don’t know how rare it is, but I like standing in line to vote. I’ve got a lot of anxiety today, given his this might turn out, but election day, I think, is still my favorite day of the year.

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7:00 AM… I don’t know if I’ll be able to keep it up, as I’m not sure if I’ll have my computer with me once the election results start rolling in, but I thought that I’d start a live blog thread, just in case things occurred to me that I wanted to share with you throughout the day, of if, perhaps, you had things you wanted to share. If you do, just leave a comment. I’ll try to get back here as often as I can throughout the day.

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386 Comments

  1. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    Word is that noon internal exit polls show Trump going down in defeat in nearly all the key swing states. You can even see clues to that in the moods of the candidates. The Hillary people have been looking very energized as the noon polls came in, while Trump and his top people have become gloomy and quiet. If morning trends continue through the day, we can look forward to a pretty decisive defeat of Trump and company.

  2. Kathryn Taylor
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 4:26 pm | Permalink

    In an effort to get the little stub off the top of the ballot, the novice poll worker actually opened the sleeve and exposed the choices of the voter in front of me. The other worker at her table quickly corrected her technique, but it still struck me (especially since I was raised in a household where the privacy of your ballot was sacred). It’s a little thing, I know, but could make some people edgy–especially given the climate of this election. (Also, screw privacy: #ImWithHer #YesToTransit #ProudTaxAndSpendDemocrat)

  3. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    The Trump campaign had hopes of flipping a traditionally “blue” state in order to come up with an alternative route to the 270 electoral college votes needed. Those hopes are all but dead this afternoon. Situations in Michigan and Pennsylvania appear to be favoring Hillary. Now Trump’s only hope appears to be winning almost all of the significant swing states, an almost impossible task at this point.

  4. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

    Kathryn, I had something similar happen in my precinct. I felt so bad for the poll worker though. They’re overwhelmed, and they’re not given much to work with.

    And like you said, tensions are kind of high. There was an incident at a polling location in Ypsilanti where a (male) Trump supporter shoved a (female) Clinton supporter, and she fell to the ground. The police came, but nobody was arrested. There may be some grounds for legal action though.

  5. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    It’s really as simple now as President Obama said yesterday….if we get out and vote, Hillary wins. The support is there. Hillary has the majority of support. All that is required now is that everyone vote. That simple. Trump simply does not have the support to counter a strong turnout.

  6. Posted November 8, 2016 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    I want to send this song dedication out to all the Trump supporters out there. This is for you EOS…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ko9TpduOhE

  7. Jcp2
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 5:02 pm | Permalink

    It took me longer to park and pull out of the lot than it did to vote. My precinct very well organized. The hardest thing I did was to research the nonpartisan component of my ballot to learn about each candidate. Pro tip – if you are running for a judicial position, a DUI conviction will not persuade me to support you.

  8. Posted November 8, 2016 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

    Donald Trump wanted to give a rousing speech last night in Grand Rapids. Being a bit short on ideas, he apparently decided he’d pretend to be the Bill Pullman character from the movie “Independence Day”

    Rather than waste your time watching his pathetic attempt at being inspiring, just go ahead and watch Bill Pullman’s corny scene from the silly movie.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoLywiaM6PA

  9. Posted November 8, 2016 at 5:37 pm | Permalink

    Almost all the polls in Indiana close in 20 minutes. The exit polls will show how Hillary and the senate race is doing there. The media does not report Indiana results until the last polls there close at 7pm.

    If Indiana is not called almost immediately for Trump at 7pm, it means Hillary is doing much better than expected and will have certainly won the presidency.

    There is also a key US Senate race there where Democrats have an outside chance of gaining a seat. If they do win this Indiana senate seat, they will likely also win enough of the other close ones to control the senate.

  10. Posted November 8, 2016 at 5:44 pm | Permalink

    Indiana – Split time zone / polls close at 6pm and 7pm EST.
    If it is not called immediately for Trump, Hillary has won the presidency. Enough of the state’s results come in at 6pm to know, but the press may not do any more than hint at what the exit polls show them. They’ve agreed not to reveal results until polls in the Central Time Zone have closed. Watch the poker faces of certain partisan reporters and you should know if Hillary has won it. If the jackasses on Fox start talking about how doomed America is, Hillary has won.

    Kentucky – split time zone / polls close at 6pm and 7pm EST.
    Also if not called immediately for Trump, Hillary has won the presidency. Similar story to Indiana.

  11. Posted November 8, 2016 at 6:06 pm | Permalink

    My friend Ian says he’s been waiting in line for three hours.

  12. Posted November 8, 2016 at 6:09 pm | Permalink

    Where was his polling place?

  13. Posted November 8, 2016 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Most polls in Indiana and Kentucky are now closed.

  14. Posted November 8, 2016 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    Trump is up comfortably in Indiana and Kentucky.

  15. Posted November 8, 2016 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

    Here are the next set of polls which will be closing in 15 minutes.

    Virginia – all polls close at 7pm EST.
    If it is called quickly for Hillary, she has likely won the presidency. However, this state may be too close to call for a while and one of the other early indicator states may beat it to the punch in revealing the almost certain winner. In the unlikelihood it is called for Trump, he has won the presidency.

    Georgia – all polls close at 7pm EST.
    If this state isn’t immediately called for Trump, he’s lost the whole election. Even a close race here means Hillary has won overall.

    Florida – split time zone / polls close at 7pm and 8pm EST.
    If it is called right away for either candidate, it means it is almost a certainty that candidate has won the presidency. However, it will much more likely be too close to call very quickly. If Trump loses it, he has lost the presidency. Hillary does not need it to win, so a loss here does not mean she has lost the presidency.

    South Carolina – all polls close at 7pm EST.
    Trump should win this easily. If it’s not called for Trump right at 7pm, Hillary has certainly won by a huge landslide nationwide.

    Vermont – all polls close at 7pm EST.
    It will be called right at 7pm. If Hilary hasn’t won it comfortably, she is likely in trouble nationwide.

  16. Posted November 8, 2016 at 6:50 pm | Permalink

    The Australian Broadcasting Corporation has Hillary at 182 EV to Trump’s 94

  17. Posted November 8, 2016 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

    Arizona had twice as many Latinos vote as did in 2012. This could bring Arizona into range for Hillary to capture.

  18. Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    The Australian Broadcasting Corporation reporter is making fun of how panicked Fox News studios in NYC are, suggesting they realize Hillary has won.

  19. Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:05 pm | Permalink

    Tracking polls have Hillary already at 252 EV, only 18 EV short of what she needs to secure the presidency. Michigan (16) and New Hampshire (4) would be enough to do it.

  20. Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

    Thank you, as always, for doing the, iRobert. It’s much appreciated.

  21. Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:18 pm | Permalink

    No networks have called South Carolina, even though the polls there closed 15 minutes ago and exit polls should have shown Trump winning it easily. This suggests Trump is in much worse trouble than expected there. This could be the first sign of disaster for Trump beyond what anyone expected.

  22. Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    It’s incredible! South Carolina polls have been closed for more than 30 minutes and not one media source has called it. From this we can conclude that Trump has lost the presidential election.

  23. Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:40 pm | Permalink

    CNN even had South Carolina colored in blue for a minute. These guys are idiots.

  24. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:57 pm | Permalink

    I guess it may be that the National Election Pool has changed their rules again, so they can further conceal information from the American public. They are saying they don’t conduct presidential exit polling there now. But I am sure somebody does, and I’m trying to find out if there is any prediction.

  25. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    Now I’m watching WHNS TV in South Carolina hoping there will be some sort of mention of all this.

  26. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    TV coverage is really lame. Mostly ads and irrelevant BS pieces. Theyre just trying to drag it out and milk it for all the viewership as possible.

  27. Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    I’m watching US election coverage on about a dozen networks worldwide. US networks are the worst. Others not much better actually.

  28. Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    Current tallies

    Hillary 252-190 Trump (exit polls)
    Hillary 182-111 Trump (Australian TV)
    Hillary 75-66 Trump (ABC)
    Hillary 68-57 Trump (SkyNews)

  29. Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

    Again, all Hillary needs is Michigan and New Hampshire and she’s over 270. Any other state or combination that gets her another 18 EV does it.

  30. Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

    NBC finally called SC for Trump, but it took ridiculously long, suggesting they are idiots, or Hillary has won overall, (or more certainly both).

  31. Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Current tallies

    Hillary 252-190 Trump (tracking polls + exit polls)
    Hillary 182-111 Trump (Australian TV)
    Hillary 75-72 Trump (NBC)
    Hillary 75-66 Trump (ABC)
    Hillary 68-57 Trump (SkyNews)

    Republicans have kept US House control as expected.

  32. Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

    Australian TV is reporting Ohio exit polls suggest Trump might even lose there.

    Current tallies

    Hillary 252-190 Trump (tracking polls + exit polls)
    Hillary 182-120 Trump (Australian TV)
    Hillary 75-72 Trump (NBC)
    Hillary 75-66 Trump (ABC)
    Hillary 68-66 Trump (CBS)
    Hillary 68-57 Trump (SkyNews)

  33. Posted November 8, 2016 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    Current tallies

    Hillary 272-190 Trump (tracking polls + exit polls)
    Hillary 182-120 Trump (Australian TV)
    Hillary 75-72 Trump (NBC)
    Hillary 75-66 Trump (ABC)
    Hillary 68-66 Trump (CBS)
    Hillary 68-66 Trump (BBC)
    Hillary 68-66 Trump (RT)
    Hillary 68-66 Trump (SkyNews)

    Hillary has won. She is on course to get about 300 EV to Trumps 238 or less.

  34. stupid hick
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    iRobert, we must exist in parallel universes. Everything I see, ABC, NBC, CBS says Trump is leading.

  35. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:13 pm | Permalink

    The Free Press has projected Hillary to be the winner in Michigan

    The states Hillary will win have not been tabulated

  36. Jcp2
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    New York Times has Michigan red and Trump at 82% with 282 electoral votes.

  37. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    Ohio being called for Trump is not good.

    I’m praying now that the Free Press exit poll for Michigan is accurate and pray New Hampshire does not go Trump. Exit polls suggested otherwise, but now I’m getting concerned

  38. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

    Wow, could we be experiencing another disaster like 2000 of some sort?

  39. Jcp2
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    Clinton will win popular vote and Trump will win electoral college. Blue collar and rural voters came out in much higher numbers than expected in Midwest and Florida. My colleague called it correctly at lunch. You can’t project polls on voters that normally don’t vote. I owe him a coffee.

  40. iRobert
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Exit polls were messed up again. It’s disturbing.

  41. Jcp2
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:51 pm | Permalink

    Well, nobody likes to admit to voting for Trump. It’s not PC.

  42. Jcp2
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    On a more positive note, there will be many opportunities for employment locally if people truly decamp to Windsor, as promised yesterday.

  43. Loser Larson
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    I blame all of you.

    How does this fucking happen? He can’t govern.

  44. Loser Larson
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Krugman is right. I just quit my job. What’s the point in doing anything anymore? I didn’t like Romney or McCain but I had no concerns about their ability to govern. This is beyond the pale.

    Fuck you all. Fuck everyone of you.

    “We still don’t know who will win the electoral college, although as I write this it looks — incredibly, horribly — as if the odds now favor Donald J. Trump. What we do know is that people like me, and probably like most readers of The New York Times, truly didn’t understand the country we live in. We thought that our fellow citizens would not, in the end, vote for a candidate so manifestly unqualified for high office, so temperamentally unsound, so scary yet ludicrous.

    We thought that the nation, while far from having transcended racial prejudice and misogyny, had become vastly more open and tolerant over time.

    We thought that the great majority of Americans valued democratic norms and the rule of law.

    It turns out that we were wrong. There turn out to be a huge number of people — white people, living mainly in rural areas — who don’t share at all our idea of what America is about. For them, it is about blood and soil, about traditional patriarchy and racial hierarchy. And there were many other people who might not share those anti-democratic values, but who nonetheless were willing to vote for anyone bearing the Republican label.

    I don’t know how we go forward from here. Is America a failed state and society? It looks truly possible. I guess we have to pick ourselves up and try to find a way forward, but this has been a night of terrible revelations, and I don’t think it’s self-indulgent to feel quite a lot of despair.”

  45. Jcp2
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    I’m surprised you’re surprised. The Canadian immigration website has crashed. Fortunately, I’m already Canadian by birth, but I’m going to stick it out here. I still have to go to work tomorrow.

  46. Loser Larson
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    I’m considering methods of suicide.

  47. Loser Larson
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:36 pm | Permalink

    This is fucking disastrous.

    Trump has to know he can’t govern. He has to know.

  48. charlieRomeo
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    I am purchasing large quantities of high powered ammunition. Justice comes out the barrel of a gun. Mao tse-Tung

  49. Loser Larson
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:38 pm | Permalink

    At least this tells us that all you need to do to become President is be a bigot.

  50. Jcp2
    Posted November 8, 2016 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    USexit!

  51. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:03 am | Permalink

    All of you know people who voted for Trump.

    From now on, I will be even less nice to people.

  52. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:16 am | Permalink

    “OK, so I guess you could say I’be been radicalized.”

    It’s a fucking war now. No more trying to “understand” people. Clearly, they are just stupid racists.

    Fuck them all. Fuck you all.

  53. Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:25 am | Permalink

    All of the national commentators look absolutely shellshocked to me.

  54. Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    We need you back in the states, Pete. Time to fight.

  55. Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:27 am | Permalink

    I should add, it’s still not beyond the realm of possibility that Clinton could win this. I know it’s unlikely, but lets not give up hope.

  56. Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    You gotta have hope.

  57. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:29 am | Permalink

    I give up hope. On everything. Fuck life. Fuck everything.

  58. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:39 am | Permalink

    I think that it would be great if WEMU picked up the Six Pack show.

    I just threw up. My life was already shit.

    And now this. Fuck everything. Death is better than this.

    Fuck you all.

  59. iRobert
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:58 am | Permalink

    God help us. This is a national nightmare

  60. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    Fuck them all.

  61. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 1:07 am | Permalink

    All out fucking war.

  62. Jcp2
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 1:44 am | Permalink

    Pennsylvania has been called for Trump.

  63. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 1:56 am | Permalink

    Jumping in front of bus, or hanging?

    Trying to think of which might be more successful.

  64. iRobert
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 3:20 am | Permalink

    I have to apologize. The unthinkable had happened, and I couldn’t see it

  65. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 3:36 am | Permalink

    Pennsylvania turned on my home county. Up until the results were revealed the local GOP were deep into a conspiracy theory, believing their votes cast for Trump appeared on a confirmation screen as votes for Hillary.

    We had a great taco truck shindig here. It was lovely.I may have hugged more people than I ever have before. We raised $1500 to be split between Planned parenthood and SOS Crisis center. Planned Parenthood will probably not exist in 5 years. SOS will need to expand. My son and friends wrote and performed a skit satirizing the 4th debate. In the foreign policy section, little Trump says “I’ll bomb the crap out of Isis.” My son, as Hillary, said “We’ll defend and go on the offense only when absolutely necessary” Someone in line for tacos booed him loudly. That brilliant man thought he would set himself apart as better than others by booing a 10 year old boy dressed as a 70 year old woman. Ezra did not care and proudly wore his pant suit all night long.

    It’s 3am. I am sitting up in my son’s room, watching him sleep. I am wondering what I will tell
    him in the morning. He wants to be a lawyer like my dad. I think we’ll need lawyers.

    I do not have any hope that we will be able to address climate change in time now. The faint sliver I had is gone. The human race for all its grandiose ideas of itself will go extinct from it’s own stupidity. The only creature on earth so fundamentally warped and powerful as to extinguish itself.

    My daughter came home to vote for the first time yesterday. She took photos of herself with all her friend’s parents last night. The parents posed with her like teenagers, caps turned askew, flashing hand signs, swigging beers. It was all very sweet. I’m glad my kids and I are surrounded by love. We are all going to need it.

    I’m done being angry.Humans are lovely stupid things. I’m done fighting the stupid. Stupid wins. For those who have spent their whole lives calling for systemic change (and I count myself among you), well this, historically, is what systemic change has looked like. At least the not incremental kind. Accelerated change is what American people of all stripes wanted most of all. There will be change. And everyone will suffer. That’s usually how radical change works. Maybe always. I’m glad Grace Boggs didn’t live to see this. She had revolutionary hope until the end.

    In the morning I will tell my children we were on the right side of history. I will ask them to remember the love we all felt last night. The generosity of spirit evidenced by everyone but that one guy. I will tell them that the work begins now. We’ll do the best we can to do the most good for the most people. Revolution can kiss my ass. I hate revolution. Time to dig into the triage work. We’ll be medics for the casualties of class war. We will document the demise of the American experiment. It’s really over. It was a hopeful messed up thing. It worked better than most human things, which isn’t much.

  66. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 3:50 am | Permalink

    I forgot my bit: I will tell my kids never to be that guy. Never be the guy that boos a 10 year old boy dressed like a woman in front of a hundred people, because it shows how much more ‘woke’ he is.

  67. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:03 am | Permalink

    I just vomited again.

  68. Bob
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:34 am | Permalink

    Only an idiot could have been deaf to America’s demand for a radical, non-establishment candidate. Even one as terrible as Donald Trump. America rejected Hillary Clinton more than twenty years ago. They rejected her decisively eight years ago. They were rejecting her throughout this lousy, rigged primary. Polls showed Bernie beating Trump and Hillary probably losing to him. Maybe we shouldn’t have dismissed the “Bernie bros” or “Bernie bots” or whatever we were called. She was a lousy candidate and now we are fucked. Recession 2016. So long healthcare. God help the immigrants.

  69. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    Well, she still won the popular vote so it doesn’t really count as a full rejection.

  70. Bob
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:59 am | Permalink

    America pulled a Larson

  71. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:44 am | Permalink

    It failed at everything it was given and now leads a worthless and hopeless existence?

    I would say that this is mixed. Certainly, politically we have failed.

  72. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 6:13 am | Permalink

    If every Jill Stein voter in MI went HRC, she would have won MI. If every Jill Stein voter in Florida had voted for HRC instead as well, HRC would have won the race.

    So yes Bob, the forces of populism have won. you are right. We will see now what radical change looks like. Congratulations.

    The country pulled a Bob.

  73. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    To everyone on this blog who suggested my calls of pervasive sexism during this election were exaggerated or manufactured for political advantage (laughable), I can only say I wish you had been right. It was worse than I thought.

    Bernie might have won. He might have been eviscerated for being a socialist. We will never know for sure.

    We have the record though of how he ran his campaign against HRC. What he said it would be, and how it turned out. We have the record of what his supporters believed, the misinformation they shared and how many of them voted or not in the general. That’s the historic record on which his candidacy will be judged, not speculation.

  74. Jcp2
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    I think you are right and wrong at the same time. We could ask if another woman with a different name might have faired better, but I don’t know if a woman with another name would have even gotten so far. Bush, Bush, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Clinton was too much. If Clinton wins the popular vote while losing the electoral college, then it’s another symptom of population sorting, with urban areas at a representative disadvantage. I predict a lot of companies will be having an emergency reassessment of their spending priorities for 2017 this week, mine included. Christmas will be painful.

  75. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    Self immolation might be nice at Christmas.

  76. AP
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    We can decide to see that this decodes for the rest of us that women will never find a path forward. Or we can remember that this was the country that we were living in all along. Women knew it. It is a bump, for sure. It is the supernova that announces the end of a dying star. My question remains, which is the star, the USA or straight white male world domination?

  77. Bob
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    Jean, you are just clueless. I voted for Hillary. Millions of Democrats didn’t vote at all. Not because of sexism. Because she was a terrible choice. She out-Gored Gore. She had a good economy and a President with incredibly high approval ratings. It’s all on her and the Wasserman Schultzers involved. And people like you.

  78. iRobert
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 9:22 am | Permalink

    Mark, I owe you and all your readers an apology. I should have known better than to think the pollsters who were operating in this mess. I was a fool to assume they would be competent these days. All of that sort of thing is falling apart now. Who’s competent anymore? Not many.

    Even the Trump strategists believed their pollsters who showed them exit polls suggesting Pennsylvania and Michigan had slipped back out of reach. They thought they were just waiting for the inevitable bad news until 8pm or 9pm when shit started falling apart from what exit polls had showed.

    Anyway, I sincerely apologize to you and your readers. I was useless last night, and probably all through this campaign. Michael Moore was right, and is also probably right about the horrible buyers remorse everyone is going to experience very soon.

  79. EOS
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    NY Times had the best online coverage in real time.

    http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/president

  80. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    Bob– You are reliable in your replies.

  81. iRobert
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 9:49 am | Permalink

    Yes, EOS, I was really surprised by that, and just about every other sources were terrible. It’s interesting, and kinda odd.

    How have you been feeling, by the way?

  82. EOS
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:09 am | Permalink

    I have a lot of empathy. I feared a much different result yesterday afternoon. It was close and the decision has far reaching consequences.

  83. Lynne
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:14 am | Permalink

    “Maybe we shouldn’t have dismissed the “Bernie bros” or “Bernie bots” or whatever we were called. She was a lousy candidate and now we are fucked.”

    Yeah, we are fucked because too many dudes on the left are sexist. No doubt about it. HRC was not a lousy candidate and would not have been seen as such if she were a man. Oh we are all fucked alright but not because some women got their hopes up that maybe we could elect the most qualified candidate over a man who openly talks about sexually assaulting women. I know FF blames me for being too uppity and maybe that really is something that motivated these assholes to get out and vote for Trump. If that is the case, then we really are going to get the country we deserve. The sexist, racist country we deserve.

    I don’t know. I know that the cat is out of the bag so to speak. I know that at every workplace I have ever worked, the women worked harder than the men because they have had to in order to be taken as seriously and I think that is why ultimately women will prevail. It is just a set back.

    Of course, if Trump gets us nuked, then none of it matters.

  84. Anonymous
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Van Jones on how we talk with our kids about this.

    http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/11/09/van-jones-emotional-election-results-sot.cnn

  85. Anonymous
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:28 am | Permalink

    Colbert was also pretty great.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXhFGO8R7aU

  86. iRobert
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    The question isn’t “What happened?” but rather “How come almost nobody saw it?” I think I am getting somewhere in finding the answer.

  87. Michale Moore by proxy
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    Morning After To-Do List:

    1. Take over the Democratic Party and return it to the people. They have failed us miserably.

    2. Fire all pundits, predictors, pollsters and anyone else in the media who had a narrative they wouldn’t let go of and refused to listen to or acknowledge what was really going on. Those same bloviators will now tell us we must “heal the divide” and “come together.” They will pull more hooey like that out of their ass in the days to come. Turn them off.

    3. Any Democratic member of Congress who didn’t wake up this morning ready to fight, resist and obstruct in the way Republicans did against President Obama every day for eight full years must step out of the way and let those of us who know the score lead the way in stopping the meanness and the madness that’s about to begin.

    4. Everyone must stop saying they are “stunned” and “shocked”. What you mean to say is that you were in a bubble and weren’t paying attention to your fellow Americans and their despair. YEARS of being neglected by both parties, the anger and the need for revenge against the system only grew. Along came a TV star they liked whose plan was to destroy both parties and tell them all “You’re fired!” Trump’s victory is no surprise. He was never a joke. Treating him as one only strengthened him. He is both a creature and a creation of the media and the media will never own that.

    5. You must say this sentence to everyone you meet today: “HILLARY CLINTON WON THE POPULAR VOTE!” The MAJORITY of our fellow Americans preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. Period. Fact. If you woke up this morning thinking you live in an effed-up country, you don’t. The majority of your fellow Americans wanted Hillary, not Trump. The only reason he’s president is because of an arcane, insane 18th-century idea called the Electoral College. Until we change that, we’ll continue to have presidents we didn’t elect and didn’t want. You live in a country where a majority of its citizens have said they believe there’s climate change, they believe women should be paid the same as men, they want a debt-free college education, they don’t want us invading countries, they want a raise in the minimum wage and they want a single-payer true universal health care system. None of that has changed. We live in a country where the majority agree with the “liberal” position. We just lack the liberal leadership to make that happen (see: #1 above).

    Let’s try to get this all done by noon today.
    — Michael Moore

  88. Eel
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:44 am | Permalink

    I hope Trump was nice enough to send a floral arrangement and some pizzas to the FBI today.

  89. Andrew Clock
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:48 am | Permalink

    Or maybe he walks into the East Room with Obama on Thursday and apologizes for birtherism. We don’t really know what we’re getting from this guy. And now is not the time to panic.

    I’m not going to be ruled by fear now any more than I was before the election. I’m not afraid of Donald Trump. I’m not afraid of what he will do. We’re better than that. We didn’t loose to racism, sexism, & xenophobia, we lost to people who felt left out. And frankly, we were happy to leave them out. Call them names. Belittle them. Shame on us. Shame on us for letting our hate win instead of our knowledge. Calling someone a racist or a sexist or a xenophobe will rarely do anything to change the situation. Talking to them like a human often does. We have to choose between mirroring the hate or spreading knowledge and love.

    Now is not the time to panic. Now is the time to prepare. Now is not the time to let our anger out, it is the time to spread out knowledge. Now is not the time live in fear, now is the time to stand up for what you believe. Because if it does Turn out he’s the fascist we thought, there truly will be a battle to fight.

    I’m not going to panic. I’m not going to be afraid. I am going to hedge a few bets financially until the markets shake out, because common sense. I’m going to move forward with the knowledge that there is more work to be done than I thought, that America will live on, that the only way to fix this is to become more inclusive to more people, and to spread knowledge not hate.

    Nothing has fundamentally changed. Its all been there all along. Among other things we learned today is post racism and post sexism is a lie and that there is a lot more work to do.

    I’m white and male. But so are most of the people that need to be convinced that change has to come. Look where fighting it with hate and anger and spite has gotten us. I’m not asking you to give up your anger, I’m asking you to show restraint and fight hate with knowledge. I’m asking you to be better. Because news flash, these people are still your coworkers and neighbors. Like it or not, we have to find a way to live with them.

  90. M
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:49 am | Permalink

    iRobert, see the Bradley effect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_effect

  91. Posted November 9, 2016 at 10:51 am | Permalink

    I want to send this song dedication out to all the Clinton supporters, including myself.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ko9TpduOhE

  92. Chris Buhalis
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    Best case scenario: we finally figure out that we have to work and fight every day. Every day and it doesn’t end. Voting alone did not get us into this mess and voting alone is not going to get us out.

  93. Posted November 9, 2016 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    That’s not all, M. This is just the beginning. The strategists were directed toward bad polling. It was a strategic move to do so. It’s not the accident these things are always portrayed as. There is always a payoff. That is what this level of politics always entails.

    Just as in 2000, the fiasco in Florida wasn’t just some unfortunate, random event. It was strategized and was a prelude to a payoff. It is the very nature of power politics.

  94. jean henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    I have heard everyone blaming everyone else. This is on all of us. We all had our part to play in This outcome. Maybe before we move to action, we should be considering our own role in allowing hatred and bias to win. I think it may be necessary to think more strategically and compassionately about how we deal with people with whom we disagree. Myself included.

    One thing I noticed is that people generally now take disagreement on policy, political position or politician as a personal affront. That’s not going to work. Democracy is a mediation process between sides and interests. the (understandable) class war was waged on one side takes all terms And that’s the result we got. I don’t think we repair anything by doubling down on the bet.

  95. Lynne
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    I like what Jay Smooth is saying

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqMhx6vh0VY

  96. alan2102
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Bob: “Only an idiot could have been deaf to America’s demand for a radical, non-establishment candidate. Even one as terrible as Donald Trump.”

    There’s a lot of idiots out there, Bob. Pretty much the entirety of the DP, the DNC, etc., etc.

  97. alan2102
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    jean henry: “I have heard everyone blaming everyone else. This is on all of us. We all had our part to play in This outcome.”

    No, “we” did not all play a part. Some of us supported electable candidates. And some of us did not.

  98. Lynne
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Alan, I think some of the Bernie people get to be included in that “we” with the way they bashed her during the primaries. The sexism that came from so many of my fellow Bernie supporters absolutely played a role in this election. I think Jean’s “we” is appropriate.

  99. facebook stalker
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    Mark Maynard:

    “Actually, I came up with a better scenario over lunch. Trump and Pence fall in love, decide to open a bed and breakfast in New Hampshire together, and hand the government over to Michelle Obama. And Elizabeth Warren.”

  100. M
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Can we all just agree that there’s more than enough blame to go around? In-fighting isn’t going to help anything.

  101. Jcp2
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Remember the conspiracy theory that Donald Trump was a false flag for Clinton? Maybe the truth is the reverse. Trump was a Democrat before he was a Republican, just like Sanders was an independent before he was a Democrat. They each were outsiders that needed an in for power, and they used the preexisting parties as an entryway. The 22nd amendment was designed to limit presidential dynasties. We’ve had the Bush and Clinton families account for twenty years of presidential rule, and if Jeb! (the R anointed) or Hillary (the D anointed) won, then half of my life would be under those names.

  102. alan2102
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Lynne: “The sexism that came from so many of my fellow Bernie supporters absolutely played a role in this election.”

    The idea that sexism played a significant role in this election is preposterous. HRC was/is one of the most prominent women in the whole fucking world. HRC was elected as Senator to New York, one of the richest and most powerful states in the union. HRC was appointed as Secretary of State of the U.S., one of the most powerful positions in the world. HRC came close to being nominated and elected POTUS in 2008 — and only lost to Obama, a BLACK man. (Racism being a much deeper, more powerful negative prejudice to overcome than sexism.)

    You’re confusing disgust at HRC’s manifestly disgusting and unacceptable qualities with sexism. Don’t do that. The great majority of Bernie people loved Jill Stein; what happened to the “sexism”? No one gives a damn about vaginas.

  103. Meta
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

    Russian wins.

    “Putin says Russia ready to fully restore ties with U.S.”

    Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Wednesday Russia was ready to fully restore relations with the United States following the election of businessman Donald Trump as the new U.S. president.

    Receiving credentials from new foreign ambassadors to Russia, Putin said he had heard Trump’s campaign statements about improving ties with Moscow. He said Russia was ready do its part to achieve this but recognised it would not be easy.

    Improved relations would benefit both Russia and the United States, he added.

    Read more:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/usa-election-russia-putin-idUSR4N1D800D?c?

  104. alan2102
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    M: “Putin says Russia ready to fully restore ties with U.S.”

    An important positive development given the poor state of U.S./Russia relations.

    Statement of Putin on relations with the U.S., looking forward to positive reconstruction:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-pUHYXRvIk
    BREAKING: Putin says Russia now ‘ready and willing’ to restore full relations with the USA, Published on Nov 9, 2016

    We now stand a fair chance of normalized relations with Putin and Russia — thank God(dess) — one of the precious few good things about a Trump presidency. With HRC and her coterie of insane neocons, things could have spiraled out of control, eventuating in hot war up to and including strategic nuclear war and the end of civilization. Things have already spiraled out of control to a lesser extent, what with the NATO buildup, though no one seems to want to pay any attention. Presumably no one would pay attention until the nukes started detonating and the power grid went down.

  105. stupid hick
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 3:23 pm | Permalink

    “We sat on our asses when we should have been in the streets, and this is where it’s brought us.”

    I disagree. “Doing something” is not a good idea unless you know what you’re doing and who it is you’re dealing with. It can backfire. I almost commented on Mark’s other post where he recounted finding and then trying to influence an “undecided” voter but I didn’t want to hurt his feelings.

    Please consider that conservatives who may have been planning to sit on the sidelines, rather than vote for Trump, may be inspired by a liberal stranger to go and vote. For Trump, not Hillary.

  106. stupid hick
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    Loser Larson, don’t kill yourself. Think of the others it would impact. You have a son. You have adoring fans on this site. Are your parents still alive? Think of them. For God’s sake, if you’re thinking of jumping in front of a bus, rethink that idea. Think about the effect on the driver and the passengers, the EMTs, the custodian who will have to mop up your remains. Jump into a volcano or swim out to sea and drown are the options I would consider, if I wanted to kill myself, but I would probably only follow through if all my loved ones were already dead.

  107. Jcp2
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    We’ll live. Half the country that was unhappy for 8 years is happy again. Of the other half that was happy then, only half are unhappy. The market is up. It’s as though yesterday was a nothing. We’ve gone from 50% unhappiness to 25% unhappiness. Also, the biglyest RINO is head of the GOP. That alone has to be interesting. The all aligned Obama Democratic government only lasted 2 years. We’ll live.

  108. ytown
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    I enjoyed reading the comments from the beginning, they start with confidence to shock to disbelief to despair. Pretty amusing.

  109. X
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:01 pm | Permalink

    That’s a great point, Stupid Hick. Next time the Dems shouldn’t try so hard. That’s the key.

  110. Lynne
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

    “The idea that sexism played a significant role in this election is preposterous.”

    Oh please. Funny how it is mostly men who keep saying such things. There is so much evidence to the contrary, it isn’t even funny. Yes, HRC lost in 2008 to a black MAN but that isn’t the evidence that racism is worse in this country than sexism. Both are horrible but it isn’t an accident that black men received suffrage decades before women did.

  111. Lynne
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    And yes, many of the ‘bernie bros’ voted for Stein knowing full well she would never get into office. I think it was a way for them to lie to themselves that their hatred towards HRC wasn’t based on sexism. Even if it wasn’t, it was largely based on the years of sexist anti-hillary rhetoric from the right. I will tell you this, as a white man, you aren’t really in a position to know just how sexist or racist these votes were. Your pussy was never in danger.

  112. Stephen
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

    Those of you who worked on the campaign here have nothing to be ashamed of. We had record numbers in Washtenaw County. We did our job. According to Lawrence Kestenbaum, the conservatives did worse here than theyu have in the last century.

    “The Trump/Pence ticket received 26.59% in Washtenaw County,” he said, adding that’s “the lowest percentage for Republican presidential nominees in at least a century and probably ever”.

  113. EOS
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    53% of white women voted for Trump. Surely they had reasons other than sexism.

  114. stupid hick
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:29 pm | Permalink

    “That’s a great point, Stupid Hick. Next time the Dems shouldn’t try so hard. That’s the key.”

    You’re being sarcastic, but I’m serious. Dems shouldn’t try hard to “reason” with conservatives. Modern conservatives (by which I mean tea-billy nativists) don’t like that. They’ll just do the opposite of what they think liberals want, even if it hurts them. I have a lot of experience with stupid tea-billy hicks and I know what I’m talking about.

  115. Lynne
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Stephen, thanks that actually does make me feel a little bit better.

    EOS, I am afraid not. Being a woman does not make one immune to sexism.

  116. jean henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    EOS you forgot racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, etc etc. lots of strong reasons to vote for a bigot and against a progressive ticket. I have called attention all these tendencies on the Left and the right. The problem is systemic. The occupancy is systemic. But only Trump managed to really harness that resentment, orchestrate his entire campaign around it and run with it. Scapegoats are handy. When employed strategically, they are used to quell dissent not inflame it.

    Class rage has elected the man who told them what they wanted to hear, gave them someone to blame, and promised them the impossible. He will not deliver them any comfort.

    Then we will see what happens.

  117. alan2102
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    Lynne: “Oh please.”

    Oh please yourself. Feel free to actually respond to the argument I made. Like, for instance, that she was ELECTED SENATOR OF NEW YORK. Where was the sexism, hmm?

    Lynne: “Funny how it is mostly men who keep saying such things. There is so much evidence to the contrary, it isn’t even funny.”

    Funny how you don’t cite any.

    Lynne: “many of the ‘bernie bros’ voted for Stein knowing full well she would never get into office.”

    What does that have to do with anything?

    Lynne: “I think it was a way for them to lie to themselves that their hatred towards HRC wasn’t based on sexism.”

    Huh?! What an incoherent idea.

    But anyway, as you well know, not many of them did vote for Stein; you can see that from the vote totals. Most of the Bernie people voted HRC at the end of the day. Maybe a few voted Trump.

    Lynne: “Even if it wasn’t, it was largely based on the years of sexist anti-hillary rhetoric from the right.”

    Anti-Hillary rhetoric from the right — of which there is a great sea, I well know — is not the point. I did not say there was no sexism, or no sexism against Hillary. I said that the idea that sexism was a significant factor in this election is rubbish. And I stand by that. And you’ve said precisely nothing to rebut it.

  118. jean henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    They’ll probably lane the marginalized or whoever the political class offers up.

  119. jean henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    I really need glasses. Sorry.

  120. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 6:01 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    Can you remind us what your prediction was about black voters and tell us how that prediction compared to reality?

  121. alan2102
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

    What is strange about these “sexism” claims is that they amount to a delusional denial of the obvious, which is that Hillary lost one of the most winnable presidential elections ever. Consider that HRC was one of the most experienced and best-qualified candidates of all time, with unlimited money, with near-unanimous support from all the media pundits, and with an extremely well-run campaign. But she lost in a near-landslide to the totally inexperienced Trump, the least-qualified candidate of all time, with poor media support, near-universal condemnation by bloggers and media pundits, with a train-wreck of a campaign, with poor support from his own party (including major defections of party leaders), and with the personal habit of making terrible mass voter-alienating bloopers on a regular basis:
    http://commondreams.org/views/2016/11/09/donald-trump-moving-white-house-and-liberals-put-him-there

    ANYONE could have and should have been able to beat Trump. Darth Vader could have beaten Trump. And with all the advantages that Hillary had, only the most dreadful personal deficiencies could possibly explain her loss.

    “Sexism” as an explanation is the most flimsy-ass excuse imaginable.

    Bernie was not a great candidate. He was not even a good candidate. He was IMO a fair candidate, however, and could easily have beaten Trump. At least he was not an awful candidate, like Hillary. Only a truly awful candidate could possibly have lost to Trump, especially one with the advantages that HRC had. But the deeply corrupt and incredibly stupid DNC could not do the right thing — the right thing for both party and country. And then the zillions of moronic zombies fell in line; “I’m with her!”. So, here we are. Thanks, Democrats, for four years of Drumpf, instead of what could have been four years of a latter-day-FDR-lite — a real progressive, or at least something approaching a real progressive. Thanks a fucking heap.

  122. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

    If she had won, it would have been by the votes of people of color. (The ‘whitelash’ was men and women) They showed for her in the primary. They have historically supported her. Maybe she didn;t work that territory hard enough. I think there’s no simple analysis to why they didn’t show up for her in the general, but we know voter suppression had a part. Racist threats certainly weigh in. Disgust with the election certainly did. A friend of mine working for the Clinton campaign in Grand Rapids in primarily communities of color, said the talk of a rigged system made them feel there was no point in them wasting their time. One thing is clear. People who struggle the most vote against their own self-interest all the time. I think the reasons run deep. But I imagine that disenfranchisement can make one feel useless and without any control. And a vote doesn’t seem like it will fix that.

  123. Joe M.
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    All you have to do is read iRobert’s comments on this thread. It’s a perfect encapsulation of the massive failings by established party personnel and the mainstream media.

    Remember when iRobert said he had so much election experience and knew better than all of us? Even those who have plenty of well off and middle class white suburban folk that made up a large part of Trump’s silent plurality? I ‘member.

  124. Joe M.
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Not that I wasn’t feeling many of those exact same feelings on Election Night. No arrogance – because Clinton was a hated candidate with the charisma of a wet bag – but quiet confidence that she “should” win, followed by a blow to her campaign nearly every 5 minutes or so. Watching hopelessly at the NYTimes live election tracker’s little arrows shift away from Clinton, stabilize in the center, and then continue their slow but steady descent towards the right, towards Trump.

    I called it quits at 2am when Pennsylvania came in, eliminating Hillary from any possible victory.

    It’s heartening and moving how passionate my friends on social media are speaking out against hate and believe that America is better than what Trump has shown this election.

    I’ve also seen a few special snowflakes get their safe space bubbles popped and post hilariously “Tumblr triggered” posts as well. What a world we live in. Now let’s see what is next in store for us.

  125. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:20 pm | Permalink

    Alan you do not know how sexism operates. I’ve spent the entire year talking about gender bias in this campaign season. It’s obvious to me and many women. The kind of women who viscerally recognize the patterns and had the pleasure of seeing them repeat themselves ad nauseam by those on the left and the right all year. You can’t see it. That’s fine. But please don’t try to lecture women, who stand to lose a great deal from SCOTUS appointments alone, about what their experience is or, worse, why it is invalid. Being told that we are imagining things– aka gaslighting– is a well established trope of sexism.

    Everything you said about Bernie is purely speculative. On the other hand women have experienced gender bias first hand. And they experienced it this election season and saw it’s patterns in the attacks on HRC’s character. On what basis, do you deny our experience? Your speculation about what might have happened otherwise. Have you considered that the HRC unfavorable ratings you mention may actually be a reflection of gender bias against a woman who dares to be ambitious? Not her actual character?

  126. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:24 pm | Permalink

    “They didn’t show up.”

    Black people showed up to vote. They went from a historically high 13% of voters in 2008 and 2012 down to 12% of voters in 2016. Black people voted for Trump at a higher rate than they did for Romney. Likewise, black people voted for Hillary at lower rate than they did for Obama.

  127. Ytown
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    Hahaha, you libs can’t control your hatred for any whose beliefs are opposite yours. It’s pretty amusing. Keep the hate coming, perhaps it will sustain you for the next 4 years.

  128. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:33 pm | Permalink

    When HRC is in office her favorability ratings are high, when she is leaves office they spike higher, when she runs for office they plummet. Is that not indication that she is punished for ambition? https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/09/02/what-hillarys-sinking-poll-numbers-really-mean-in-one-chart/

    The double standards applied to her are clear. There is certainly no political benefit to pointing up gender bias against her, so why, Alan, do you think people, not just women, see it as a problem? What’s our investment in talking about it?

  129. Ytown
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:45 pm | Permalink

    Hahaha, her favorability ratings plummeted because of her criminal actions and FBI investigations, not because of her ambition directly. Perhaps her blind ambition led her to act in a criminal manner. So, i guess you’re right.

  130. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:52 pm | Permalink

    Yes FF you are right. I should have said didn’t turn up for Clinton. She received 88% of the Black vote, and Obama received 93% on 2012. Your percentages on turnout are taken from the total of all eligible voters, not just Black voters. Turn out in 2004 was 60%, in 2008 64.7%, in 2012 66.2%. Close to that of Whites as a percentage of eligible. The figures for 2016 are not yet available, but are predicted to be lower. In particular, some urban Black voters did not turn up to vote Hillary or anyone. In Detroit she received 120,ooo less than Obama. That’s decisive.

  131. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Alan– I hope Pete sticks around long enough to respond to your ‘Putin normalized relations with the US’ bright side. That should give him a kick. Mostly I hope Pete sticks around. He’s needed. Personally, I don’t feel the world is much safer because Putin thinks Trump is putty in his hands.

  132. stupid hick
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    “because of her criminal actions and FBI investigations”

    How deluded is Trump’s base? As I pointed out in a different thread, the Republicans have been trying to manufacture BS vs the Clintons for 20 years, and it has resulted in NOTHING. Not because there is some kind of conspiracy to cover for them, but because it’s overblown BS with zero substance behind it. Want more proof? I predict we will hear no more mention of any of Clinton’s “crimes” because the campaign is over. Anyone doubt it? Wait a year and let’s see if Clinton is in jail, like Trump promised.

  133. stupid hick
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 8:28 pm | Permalink

    FWIW, Jean, I only refer to Pete as “Loser” because that’s the name he’s decided to go by after giving up on “Dirtbag”. I love being called a stupid hick by people I disagree with. I don’t want to deprive Pete of that joy, if that’s the kind of thing he’s aiming for too.

  134. Jcp2
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 9:41 pm | Permalink

    Here are some thoughts of people much more impacted by Trump.

    http://theundefeated.com/features/morgan-state-students-blah-on-hillary-clinton-but-shocked-by-donald-trump-win/

  135. Loser Larson
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    I do not need to comment on Mr. 2102’s wholly inadequate understanding of Vladimir Putin and of autocrats in general.

  136. Jean Henry
    Posted November 9, 2016 at 11:19 pm | Permalink

    Stupid Hick– I won’t indulge Pete’s self-loathing. I have enough of my own to manage. He seems more capable than most to me– despite himself. Also I don;t disagree with him enough for it to offer him any perverse pleasure.

    RE Clinton crimes. It’s impossible to imagine more mundane emails coming from someone thought to be so nefarious : http://samanthabee.com/episode/29/clip/the-fascinating-emails-of-a-sixty-something/

    When my son first saw Putin during the Russian Olympics, he thought he looked like Lex Luther. So then, who is Trump?

  137. Loser Larson
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 12:36 am | Permalink

    I do not mind people referring to me negatively. I get no pleasure out of it, but also do not oppose it.

    It doesn’t matter to me. Nothing matters to me, really.

  138. Loser Larson
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    So, is the Six Pack show dead? Given this disaster, I think it is more important than ever to continue it.

    I mean, this blog is fine, but in the end it is simply the voice of Mark Maynard, and a few people speaking to that voice. The Six Pack show validates the good work of people who are involved and gives them a forum to air and solidify their views.

    I think the radio show is more important than you are probably giving it credit for.

  139. stupid hick
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 12:52 am | Permalink

    Jean, ok maybe it’s not wholly an adversarial thing, because I love it when you call me Stupid Hick too. What have I become? Time for introspection away from this blog.

  140. EOS
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 4:53 am | Permalink

    I understand your despair. I experienced the same feelings during the past two presidential elections after Obama was elected. It is especially disheartening for ideologues when their agenda is voted down.

    I think the difference in this election is that Christians mobilized, prayed, and voted. The pollsters discounted their numbers because more than 50% sat on the sidelines and didn’t vote in past elections. I stood at the Capitol in Lansing in October and prayed with Franklin Graham and more than 9,000 others. Graham prayed at every state capitol in the nation. Another 100 or so groups led national prayer events. There were conference calls across the nation where people prayed for hours. There were simulcasts in Theaters across the nation where people of all denominations prayed and worshipped. There were large numbers of people who prayed and fasted for long periods. And there were small groups of believers across our land praying fervently for the election.

    And we didn’t pray that Trump would be elected. We asked for God’s forgiveness and mercy. We need His forgiveness for allowing our government to actively support an ungodly agenda. To forgive us for 59 million slaughtered in the womb. To forgive us for Gay marriage. To forgive us for allowing acts of faith to be criminalized. To forgive us for our lack of involvement. To preserve our freedoms.

    And we prayed for corruption to be exposed. We prayed that anyone trying to commit voter fraud would be caught. And we prayed for Christians to be motivated to vote for persons and platforms that reflect Biblical values. We prayed for God to change the hearts of leaders to be willing to promote Biblical values.

    And God answered our prayers. The vote was sufficient to not only win this time, but we would have won the last two times as well if we had the same turnout. And we are grateful and will stay involved and keep praying. We are praying that God would give Trump wisdom to govern justly, to select honest leaders to appoint to cabinet positions, and to protect him from all unjust attacks.

    And you are all welcome to join us in praying for a better future with opportunities for everyone. Pray for world peace and domestic tranquility. Pray for racial reconciliation. Pray for revival and an outpouring of the Spirit. He can heal our land.

  141. Posted November 10, 2016 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    EOS, I hope you’re alright with it if I copy this last comment of yours to the most recent thread, which is about the white evangelical vote. I think it belongs there as well. Thanks… And good morning, everyone.

  142. Posted November 10, 2016 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    And thank you for your comments about the radio show, Pete. I’m still thinking about what it should look like out Trump. I’ll keep you posted.

  143. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 8:03 am | Permalink

    The radio show is more important than ever for the reasons Pete stated. It’s bigger and broader than this blog. It would be amazing if it could find a larger outlet and still continue to be what it is– loose, free flowing and intimate, rather than edited and produced. If it’s responsive to current events locally with those guests speaking to the lived impacts of national policy and their positive action (or not) in response, that seems important. The Flint water crisis was a local issue that became national– because it was a marker for a national problem– and it relied on local activists and local responsive media. The national media pisked it up more than a year later and used that footprint to build their story accurately. And now that the National Media has moved on, the local media and activists are the people keeping the story alive. I don;t know what’s going to happen, but I feel certain that this region will demonstrate the impact of Trump’s policies as well as any other if not better. There will be stories. It’s impossible to know what they will be. I prefer not to try to imagine them.

    I also believe that under greater government control over public expression we may see a rise again of subversive political art movements like those in the past that the Six Pack has chronicled. I predicted jokingly a while back that one good thing about a Trump presidency would be the heralding of a new era of the avant garde art. Those movements need something to push against. Lately they have been a bit silly and primarily about navel gazing and self-congratulatory communities of exclusion. But now they will take on new relevance. And the art will be a lot better. And people will relate better. Tuesday night bunch of 5th grade boys staged a one act play they wrote about Trump/Clinton, and it was pretty damn good. They would rather be playing soccer on the playground, but spent a week writing a play instead. I guess they had some feelings to work out. I expect more plays. I expect local public art events and action. What better way to process and frame absurdity? Saturday Six Pack would be more relevant than ever.

  144. alan2102
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Jean: “women have experienced gender bias first hand. And they experienced it this election season and saw it’s patterns in the attacks on HRC’s character. On what basis, do you deny our experience? ”

    We’re back to anecdotes versus data. See previous posts on the subject (old thread). Anecdotes are good. But they are just anecdotes. They are not data.

    “Have you considered that the HRC unfavorable ratings you mention may actually be a reflection of gender bias against a woman who dares to be ambitious?”

    Yes, of course I’ve considered that. And I’ve rejected it. Why? Because many women have risen to high positions and have been highly successful without such massive unfavorability. Women who “dare to be ambitious” clearly are NOT subject, necessarily, to gender bias, so why should Hillary be an exception?

  145. alan2102
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    Jean: “alan– I hope Pete sticks around long enough to respond to your ‘Putin normalized relations with the US’ bright side.”

    Well, I’ve thought about it overnight, and I realize I was wrong.

    I WAS WRONG.

    We should NOT be improving relations with the autocratic, vicious dictator Putin. We should NOT be abiding our (NATO) promises, decades ago, to refrain from military buildups on Russia’s borders. Instead, we should be accelerating that buildup, to defend ourselves from the Russian bear which is poised to attack us at any moment. A hundred or so MIRV-ed nukes, positioned within a ~4 minute flight time to Moscow or St Petersburg, should really give those Russkie bastards something to think about! No more Mr Nice Guy!

  146. alan2102
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    We face four years of Drumpf, when we could have had a more-than-decent FDR-like social democrat in the WH. Thanks, Democrats! Thanks a fucking heap!

    http://usuncut.com/politics/bernie-sanders-would-have-crushed-trump/
    If anyone doubts Bernie Sanders would’ve crushed Trump, show them this
    Zach Cartwright | November 10, 2016
    According to the data, Donald Trump would have been soundly defeated by Bernie Sanders last night had the Vermont senator been the one to face him.
    When examining the 13 states Hillary Clinton lost twice — the states Trump won side-by-side with the states Bernie Sanders won during the Democratic primary — the similarities are striking. The GOP nominee likely saw this, and tweeted in May that he was relieved to not have to face Sanders in the general election: [image of tweet]
    In five states Sanders won where exit polling data is available — Indiana, Michigan, Oklahoma, West Virginia, and Wisconsin — the demographics that helped Trump hit 270 electoral college votes were also Sen. Sanders’ key demographics that helped him defeat the former Secretary of State in multiple primaries in different regions of the country.
    The numbers suggest that there may have been enough Sanders votes in those pivotal states to have swung the election in Sanders’ favor if superdelegates and restrictive closed primaries weren’t part of the Democratic primary process.

  147. jean henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Tad Devine sanders campaign chief designed the super delegate system. He was hired to work the system to Sanders advantage, so you should talk to him about why that didn’t work for them. If the system was rigged, then Devine rigged it.
    Sanders would have been destroyed in the general. His primary numbers don’t matter and show nothing.
    Most of Trumps supporters were not negatively impacted by Free Trade according to a huge Gallup study this year. They also are mostly educated and higher wage earners. Hillary Clinton won the poor and lower working ckaaa vote by a substantial margin. This was a primarily white vote either for Trump or for Stein that discounts the concerns of people of color and women at the best in favor of strict ideological adherence. The evangelical vote was massive. Bias is not just a conservative problem. It’s systemic. And so it’s on all sides. Liberals have not served people of color well in their communities. Thru do better at a national level with liberals which is interesting… can we say NiMBY?
    Many on the left dislike talking about or acknowledging issue of social justice as more than just an off shoot of income inequality. It makes them uncomfortable. And the results show in their cities small and large and in their candidates. And in this election. It’s not in keeping with their idea of themselves and what they stand for to concede their own bias. So it must be a GOP thing. So it’s not the real issue. So it persists, preserving their privilege.

  148. jean henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    ** ‘Thru do better at a national level serving the marginalized” (Im tired)

  149. alan2102
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 3:53 pm | Permalink

    This is it! We now have smoking-gun PROOF that Trump is a patsy for Putin, possibly even a KGB agent:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-russia-in-touch-election_us_582475f5e4b0d9ce6fc0e5f4
    Russia Says It Was In Touch With Trump Campaign During The Election

    Ha! Let them try to deny THAT!

    It is a very good thing that we now have the biggest force of Western troops and weapons amassed on the Russian border since Operation Barbarossa. (Positioned, coincidentally [?], in about the same places as the original Barbarossa.) We must USE THEM, RIGHT NOW, before the communist traitor Trump gets in to office. The godless red Russian beast must be brought to its knees, must be annihilated, before the mad dictator Putin makes a bid to take over America by way of his puppet Trump. If we wait, we may never get another chance. Time to finish the noble job that Hitler started! DEFCON 1! ATTACK! NOW!!!

  150. Loser Larson
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Your ignorance is stunning.

  151. Andrew Clock
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Dear Democrats,

    Tuesday was a terrible day for us and our country, but blaming third parties, the FBI, the media, and blaming racism/sexism is a cop-out. We set ourselves up for this, Democrats. 8 Million less people voted for our candidate this year than 2012, and 12 million less than 2008. You can’t blame all of that on -isms and phobias, Russia, and the media. Listen, I’m not dismissing the clear fact that Trump has brought out the racists, bigots, and sexist in our nation. He has. But they always vote Republican. They didn’t hand Trump the victory. We did.

    We had a very qualified person running for office who was a very terrible candidate that almost no one liked or trusted. Maybe sexism played a part in this, but at every opportunity to gain trust, Hillary failed. It is time to look for new blood that can move our party boldly while gaining back the trust we’ve lost in millions of Americans.

    Many of us dismiss the concerns of millions of Americans because they were born with more inherent privilege than so many others. That isn’t to say white privilege isn’t a thing. It is. But that still isn’t an excuse to ignore people that are your neighbors and fellow citizens. You can scream racist/sexist at them until you’re blue in the face, but it will do nothing to help them understand. Listening, talking, promoting understanding might.

    Many of us dismiss concerns about healthcare because it works for us. But many people are paying more for healthcare that isn’t as good as their old plans, or paying for services they’ll never use and don’t want. Rates and deductibles are higher, and they can’t get a subsidy because they make just enough to not qualify. Small businesses can’t offer coverage like they used to. I can understand this, because I can’t afford my premium anymore either, and I need it. My coverage saves me less than $1000 per year over buying my services outright. Next year that gap will shrink again, and I make less than $27k, barely middle class. Obamacare isn’t working for everyone as advertised, and people are angry.

    Finally, the Democrats have for decades supported a corporatist/globalist agenda that does not bring low wage low skill workers along for the ride. Those people come in every ethnicity, and they are suffering. Dismissing some those suffering because of their race is still marginalizing them, even if they have an inherent advantage in other areas. Not to get all sci-fi, but this only gong to get worse with the rise of robots. By 2021, 6% of those jobs will be gone to automation. This isn’t a white/black/brown problem, its an American one.

    I’m sure the leftists will have a field day with this, but here is the cold hard truth: You can’t claim “Love Trumps Hate” if all you do is spew hate to those who disagree with you. It may be righteous anger you’re venting, but hate is hate. Attack them with your knowledge. Attack them with their understanding. Don’t just label them, inform them. And for god’s sake, try to be as polite as you’d like them to be back. I’m not asking you to like them, I’m asking you to be civil. Give them a chance first. You might be surprised.

    You don’t have to like Trump. You don’t have to work with him. You should oppose him. He’s dangerous and we will need to be on guard to defend the less privileged from him. We have to hope most of his rhetoric doesn’t become action, and we need to prepare to fight if it does. But we can not dismiss all of his supporters and their concerns as racists/sexist. While much of it may be, its true, these people do not understand why we would think that of them and screaming epitaphs at them at them Will. Not. Change. Them.

    None of the racism and sexism Trump brought out is new. You’re fooling yourself if you thought we’d beat it back. He surfaced it. Now we know. Now we can root it out. But we can not confuse hate with innocent ignorance. One must be destroyed, the other must be fed knowledge. Because ignorance is something we’ve cultivated in our culture, and knowledge is the only cure. Its really, really hard to face hate and ignorance with patience, knowledge and love, but it will be the only way forward. If we abandon all of these people as nonredeemable, we will be locked out of office for decades to come.

    Yes, voter suppression. It is a thing. It is happening. But we can overcome that too. Organize petition to force change at the ballot box. Take people to the polls. Bring food and water and chairs to the people where the Republicans have shut down polling places and made the wait to vote untenable. Push absentee ballot voting into more minority areas. Take people to city hall to get their ballot if need be. We overcame this Jim Crow bullshit before, and we will again.

    Use your rage, but use it constructively. Turn it into knowledge. Turn it into love. Turn it to organizing and work. Bring it out everyday. Be ready to use it to defend the less fortunate, immigrants, and people of color. Be ready to flood the nation with it in 2 years and again in 4. Prove that Love Trumps Hate with your actions. We can do this. Trump and his cohorts and their atrocious, backward policies will give us the opportunity to bring down an unstoppable wave to wash away his hate and ignorance and stupidity. A wave that will lift us higher than any tide before in the history of our nation. But we must choose not to mirror the hate we are fighting with our own own, or we will accomplish nothing. I will be an ally any person of color, immigrant, or LGBTQ person that needs me to stand with them, but I will not do so by directing hate to others because of their race, place of birth, heritage, or how they voted in the last election. That will cure nothing.

    Racism exist. White male privileged exists. Sexism exists. Sadly it is all alive an well in America and rearing its ugly head because of Trump. None of that is an excuse to spread more anger and hate, because anger and hate will not defeat any of these things.

    I can obviously never fully understand what anything that happened this week means to people of color, or women, or immigrants, and I’m not going to pretend to. I’m not belittling or dismissing your fear, anxiety, or anger. And I’m not asking you sacrifice your rights for fragile white male (or female) egos. I am only asking you to not go straight to hate and anger when you encounter people who don’t get it, or who think their problems are equal to yours. Please try to use your knowledge, love, and understanding as long as you can. That’s all.

    I’m done after this on Facebook for quite a while because frankly, it puts us in a bubble and turns us all into narcissists that can’t see past our own ideas to understand others. I’ll stop here from time to time, but I don’t want to participate in online debates anymore. I wasted too much time this election on line instead of on the front line. I regret it. I’m moving on. I’m contacting the local Democratic party office to see what I can do. I’m getting involved. I’m supporting businesses owned by immigrants and people of color. I just finished two different conversation with coworkers about race, class and privilege. I’m not sure if I changed any minds, but I damn sure made them think a lot harder than an epitaph ever would.

    Things look dark now. But Trump, in his ignorance and casual racism will give us the chance to shine a light like the world has never seen and burn this disease out of our nation once and for all.

    Stay safe, stay strong. And get ready.

  152. Andrew Clock
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 4:10 pm | Permalink

    Oh, and I guess I have to clarify that I whole heatedly supported and voted for Clinton. I still think she was a bad candidate.

  153. alan2102
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 4:17 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “Most of Trumps supporters were not negatively impacted by Free Trade according to a huge Gallup study this year. They also are mostly educated and higher wage earners. Hillary Clinton won the poor and lower working class vote by a substantial margin.”

    This election was roughly of a piece with Brexit; it was an establishment versus (perceived, not actual, in the case of Trump) anti-establishment thing. It was a reflection of the mood of the last year or two, a sort of mini-zeitgeist, of populism, anti-elitism, etc., not so much economic status or class as such (though some of that, too; and granted that they overlap a good deal). Described very well by Greenwald here:
    https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/

    And on top of that, there was Hillary’s considerable baggage. And on top of that, there was the perception of much more baggage than there actually was — an unfortunate political reality. Darth Vader might actually be a very sweet guy, deep inside, but popular perceptions will limit his political possibilities — unless he is running against Hillary, in which case he will probably win.

    Jean: “This was a primarily white vote either for Trump or for Stein that discounts the concerns of people of color and women at the best in favor of strict ideological adherence.”

    Huh? This sentence makes no sense. A vote for Stein/Baraka discounts the concerns of people of color and women?

    Jean: “Many on the left dislike talking about or acknowledging issue of social justice as more than just an off shoot of income inequality.”

    Huh? Income inequality is an offshoot of (the very broad category of) social justice).

  154. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    Thank you, Andrew. What you said makes a lot of sense to me.

  155. Loser Larson
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 4:56 pm | Permalink

    Interesting.

  156. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    BREXIT was also about bigotry. I don’t hate anyone. I think we all have internalized bias. I think we all have work to do. I don;t for a second imagine that bigotry is something confined to the right. I do think that many on the right have bought into a more well developed coded biased narrative. And to some degree and openly biased narrative. And that they are subject, in face of sharing their privilege, to feel very threatened by that idea. To be wounded. Or at least to affect such a posture. If they hear someone advocating for equity as hatred– as so many have around every movement for civil rights ever– that is simply a means of protecting their privilege. It’s not the responsibility of the person advocating for equal treatment to nurse those wounds. In fact, it’s actively against the interest of their cause. Equity does not really distract from anyone’s worth. It’s simply asks them to share power. And that does not historically injure anyone. It only asks them to share. Gay marriage and gay rights hurt no one. Civil rights hurt no one. Women entering the workforce has helped the economy as a whole. Nothin was lost, except male power. Men who were not great at their work, could continue to not be so great and hold position or advance. That;s actually no good for anyone. Men who felt bad could abuse and harass people of color or women or any other marginalized population beneath them without consequence. That was no good for anyone either.

    The only thing at stake in greater equity is fewer assholes. The best way to turn assholes into better people is not to agree that they are being victimized by anyone who stands up to them. I know a lot of people who voted for Trump. They are not horrible people. They are caring people. They are not open racists, but they feel compelled to maintain the biased status quo. They deeply fear sharing power. Legitimizing that fear does not ameliorate it.

    Still no tears for White men. That doesn’t mean I hate them. It means I don;t feel sorry for them. That those too things are confused shows how much

  157. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 5:16 pm | Permalink

    Andrew– RE
    “Jean: “Many on the left dislike talking about or acknowledging issue of social justice as more than just an off shoot of income inequality.”
    Huh? Income inequality is an offshoot of (the very broad category of) social justice).”

    I was writing fast in a dark car. Maybe I wasn’t clear. Income inequality is a piece of the social justice puzzle, yes. But the Sanders campaign and many of his supporters whom I talked to at length, believed that addressing income inequality would magically address other issues under the social justice umbrella– about which Sander had a strong record of disinterest after the 70’s. I can;t tell you how many times I was called a SJW (Social Justice Warrior) dismissively by white men on the left. Men who absolutely were adamant about addressing income inequality, primarily via redistribution. So if they care about social justice more broadly– including the other components, neither Sanders nor many of his followers made that evident. HRC was better on that in word and deed, but not much and many of her followers showed considerable intolerance for the voices of people of color. And we all remember how she used race against Obama in 2008.

    Bigotry is the great American problem Not income inequality. Bigotry and implicit bias affect every sector of our population. People of color have internalized biases against themselves. Women have internalized biases against themselves. We have to talk about it. IIt will never be addressed until we do. If it makes some people feel shame, well they need to work that shame. Don’t kill the messenger.

  158. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    https://www.ft.com/content/41f9b0fa-a43c-11e6-8898-79a99e2a4de6

  159. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 5:27 pm | Permalink

    Re a Jill Stein vote– yes. It discounts the concerns of people of color. I understand that her running mate was an Black man and a serious activist. But the presence of a Balck man on the ticket does not void the reality that people– mostly white men– who voted Stein did not care if a Trump presidency would be the result. If the Stein campaign truly addressed the concerns of communities of color she would have won their support. And maybe her platform would have, had she had a chance to win (and if she wasn’t completely unqualified), but a vote for her was not going to help anything but Jill Stein in reality.

    People who voted for her from their supposed conscience, from their concern for the fate of the marginalized, neglected to consider in this case what the actual impact of that vote on those populations would be. Token Black VP candidate or not. They were simply making grand display of their leftist identity. like that guy who booed my kid dressed as clinton. Those people voted Stein. If they do care, they really fucked up,

  160. Lynne
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know. I think every person of color, every woman, every queer person, has every right to be filled with hate and anger right now. If white dudes, even liberal ones, want to have peace, they are just going to have to step back. Right now is not the time for liberal men to start telling liberal women or people of color, or gay people that they should have gone with the candidate with the penis, that they made a mistake and underestimated how truly awful white people, but especially white men can be. It is not my responsibility to shield the people who hurt me by voting how they did from my righteous anger. You need to let people process things and then maybe they will get to the love part.

  161. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/us/politics/white-women-helped-elect-donald-trump.html?_r=0

  162. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 6:45 pm | Permalink

    Lynne,

    You claimed to know and be in the mix with black people but you failed miserably to predict how black people would vote.

    You claimed to know and be in the mix with women but you failed miserably to predict how women would vote.

    Although you try, you don’t seem to be very good at identifying what motivates people.

    Although, it is a lot of fun listening to your shell-game-logic, sexism and racism only tells part of the story.

    Do you have anything to say to the 6% of college educated black women who voted for Trump?

    Any words for the 28% of college educated hispanic women who voted for Trump?

    What do you have to say to the 13% of black men who voted Trump?

  163. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    **sorry, as Jean pointed out earlier I need to express those percentages as a percentage of those who voted**

  164. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 7:54 pm | Permalink

    FF you seem to short on the concept. If a Black person loves the KKK that doesn;t mean the KKK isn’t racist. White women voted for Trump in large numbers. He’s still sexist. Obviously so.

    These things are complex. If people moved in such uniform predictable ways as classes of people, things would be as simple as you make them out to be. But they don’t.

    I think you need to be asking yourself why you are so invested in disproving sexism as a factor in the election. and now racism?? Really?? It’s obvious to most people.

    It’s impossible to know if they are the predominant factor. But the numbers certainly seem to point more readily to racial bias than to any kind of working class uprising.

    And, if it helps, I think most Americans are dissatisfied with the status quo in DC. And most Americans want to limit moneyed interests in campaigns and achieve wall street reform. Bernie, Clinton and Trump has to offer that. But Trump won. So why is that?

  165. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    from Facebook:

    Brown folks: Joblessness and poverty are crushing our communities.

    Black folks: Joblessness and poverty are crushing our communities.

    White Allies Post Election: We let Trump win because we didn’t listen to the white men! Joblessness and poverty are crushing their communities, but we had no idea, because we were not attuned to the needs of white men! Let’s listen to white men about poverty and joblessness!

    Brown folks: :(

    Black folks: :(

  166. Demetrius
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 8:24 pm | Permalink

    @ Andrew

    Thank you for your thoughtful post … it echoes much of what I’ve been trying to express, but in a much more eloquent way.

  167. Demetrius
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 9:06 pm | Permalink

    President Trump: How America Got it So Wrong (Matt Taibbi in Rolling Stone)

    ” … The Democratic Party’s failure to keep Donald Trump out of the White House in 2016 will go down as one of the all-time examples of insular arrogance. The party not only spent most of the past two years ignoring the warning signs of the Trump rebellion, but vilifying anyone who tried to point them out. It denounced all rumors of its creeping unpopularity as vulgar lies and bullied anyone who dared question its campaign strategy by calling them racists, sexists and agents of Vladimir Putin’s Russia.

    But the party’s willful blindness symbolized a similar arrogance across the American intellectual elite. Trump’s election was a true rebellion, directed at anyone perceived to be part of “the establishment.” The target group included political leaders, bankers, industrialists, academics, Hollywood actors, and, of course, the media. And we all closed our eyes to what we didn’t want to see.

    The almost universal failure among political pros to predict Trump’s victory – the few exceptions, conspicuously, were people who hailed from rust-belt states, like Michael Moore – spoke to an astonishing cultural blindness. …”

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/president-trump-how-america-got-it-so-wrong-w449783

  168. Lynne
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 9:47 pm | Permalink

    I admit that I was wrong. Like everyone, I live in a bubble. However, I wasn’t *entirely* wrong. More black people voted for Clinton than Trump. More women voted for Clinton than for Trump. Yes, I seriously underestimated the racism among white women but women overall did not vote for him so I still was right that more women would vote for Clinton. I was right that most black people were not going to vote for Trump but overestimated the turnout. I mean 94% of the black women who voted did not vote for Trump after all. Honestly though, I still don’t get how so many white women could vote for Mr PussyGrabber. Obviously I seriously underestimated how racist our country still is, something one of my black friends recently got on my case about, i.e. my willful blindness to how bad racism still is in this country.

    What would I say to the 6% of black women who voted for Trump? I might ask them why they were so willing to vote for someone who was so obviously racist. I don’t happen to know any of that 6%. All of the black women I know voted for Clinton, sadly some by absentee ballot out of fear of what might happen at polling places. My guess though is that they are just very conservative.

    I got into an argument on facebook with the only black man I know who wasn’t voting for Clinton. Well other than those who can’t vote because of a past criminal history. That, btw, is an ironic factor of this election. Mostly he was angry about liberal white people’s racism which as Jean has pointed out is a thing. And also, that particular guy is kind of sexist. He didn’t vote for Trump though. I imagine that my cousin’s husband, who is a very prominent black republican in Alabama voted for Trump. I’ve always wanted to ask him what his reasons are for being republican in the south like that but the good news is that the party there is treating him well. He was just appointed the first black judge in his area. I generally try to avoid talking politics at family gatherings though and that is one area where I know I fail my black friends regularly but it is what it is.

    I suspect that the college educated Hispanic women who voted for Trump did so because they aren’t in danger of being deported themselves and they have conservative values especially around abortion. I wonder how many of that group is brown and how many are white people of Spanish decent? Ex pat Cubans are often pretty conservative as a result of self selection from an oppressive left wing regime.

    One thing I do know though is that voting for Trump was a racist and sexist act. Every single person who voted for him voted for white male supremacy whether they admit it to themselves or not. For some, it was the hope of change that was their primary motivator but even those people had to overlook some serious issues with the man and thus earned the labels bestowed on them. They voted for more of the same systemic racial problems that have been part of our nation’s history for ever. I am with Jay Smooth on this one. Resistance is as much of the fabric of our nation as racism is and resistance has brought white people kicking and screaming towards the ideals that our country was founded on. There will be resistance. White supremacy and the patriarchy will not last forever and this is just a step back on the road to equality that we will get to eventually.

  169. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    “These things are complex.”

    I agree, Jean. My comments and questions for Lynne were all designed to be a call for thinking about what motivated peoples decisions to vote one way or another in a more complex way; or, at least, I was trying to cast doubt on the absurdly simple formulas that people are using to explain everyone’s motivations. Racism and sexism played a role, of course. Racism and sexism, however, is not the ultimate explanation for everyone’s decision to vote for Trump or against Hillary.

  170. Jcp2
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    It’s true that your feelings about running me over with your car would be different if it were an intentional act or an accident. However, I’m in the hospital either way, so it really doesn’t matter to me what you think, especially if you don’t help me get better and make me whole.

  171. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 11:03 pm | Permalink

    “My guess is that they are just very conservative.”

    Oh.

  172. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    FF– I want to be clear, when I talk about sexism and racism in the cmapaign, I’m not at ALL talking about people in the ballot box just thinking I can’t vote for a woman. That’s not a large part of the population. I’m talking about gender bias that asks women to meet a much higher set of standards than men. that easily condemns women for seeking power. That leads them to you know, just feel not right about a woman who is wealthy (earned) or who seeks power. I’m talking about her voice is too shrill, she’s yelling and interrupting. Did she do those things? Barely. Did the others do those things? Constantly. did the right prepetrate a years long assault on her more than her husband becuase she just rubbed people the wrong way? Does this only happen to women with great power? No. It happens all the time. Any time a woman asserts herself in a meeting or at work. The criticisms are always the same. All double standards– too sensitive; too bold, too passive. dress too short; dress not short eneough. It’s all double binds.
    There is very little evidence that people won’t vote for women in the ballot box. That kind of bias is very limited. There is the evidence that the American people liek to jdge women harshly. And women like to judge women harshly. And the GOP used that msiogyny to railroad (or shift boat) HRC. And it worked. It was a propaganda war against her. It has been ugly and gross.

    Your response to this has been so clinical. So insisting on your position. Women are in fucking pain. AMny marginalized groups are in pain. Trump took aim at us. But in the case of women, the left took aim at us too. And your skepticism is unwelcome. And a little cruel.And I’m asking you to stop questionning and just accept that maybe you have blinders to some realities.

    I’m not saying it’s the only reality of this election. I’m saying that it matters though. And I really wish you would stop trying to prove it doesn’t exist. You know, call me a crazy bitch with a victim complex. I’d prefer it to this grilling.

  173. Lynne
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 11:09 pm | Permalink

    One of my friend’s daughters said something pretty beautiful. That even though 50% of the country has chosen to go backwards, the other 50% is still going to go forwards. Nice thought.

  174. Lynne
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

    Yeah. I was reading a study on this and IIRC, everyone in the study said that they would vote for a woman. And then they paired up imaginary candidates with little bios in mock elections and they found that most people actually really would vote for a woman…IF she was much more qualified than her opponent either in terms of experience or having a similar ideology. In other words, people don’t have a problem with voting for women (which btw is a HUGE improvement from when I was a child) but they do still hold women to a higher standard. Also, most of them were unaware that they were doing this.

    So much of the racism and sexism in our culture is implicit. I don’t think most Trump voters are sitting around thinking about how much they hate black people or Muslims or whatever. But they do have biases and as such it allows them to overlook so much of the racism and sexism in the Trump campaign. And here is the thing, you can be black and have implicit negative associations towards your own race. According the Harvard Implicit Association Test, c.70% of white people and 40% of black people have negative implicit associations with black people. I recall a famous study where children were given either a black doll or a white doll to play with and the white doll was much more popular in both the group of white children and the group of black children.

    I am not suggesting that all Trump voters are explicit and open about their racism, KKK style. I am saying that one cannot have overlooked the racism and the sexism without being a little racist and sexist themselves. And yes, that includes the black women who voted for him. I imagine that they are really conservative and also OK with the racism and sexism at the very least. which is kind of racist and sexist. Of course people had other reasons to vote for him. It was the giant fuck you to the left that they wanted. Every single one of them voted for white male supremacy and condoned the bullying of a very significant part of the American population.

  175. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Jean,

    I believe sexism exists.

    I do not participate in Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter. It just dawned on me that maybe I missed a lot of nasty stuff because I refuse to participate in social media. Maybe I missed an entire layer of “the war” against Hillary? I am not sure. Maybe a lot of the stuff on MM.com that seems odd to me is the result of me missing out on the greater context of the “conversation”.

    Anyway, I will drop it.

    When you mentioned the hypothetical of a black person who loves the kkk, I remembered Daryl Davis….If you haven’t heard of him then you might enjoy learning about him as it fits in with a lot of the things you seem to value….

    Goodnight.

  176. Jean Henry
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 11:40 pm | Permalink

    Appreciated FF. This is not fun for anyone. I actually hate conflict. But I’m good at it. I had to learn how to fight. But it still makes me shake sometimes. It makes me feel physically ill a lot of the time. I would like to retreat, but I have children, and now is not the time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncdY2nGKzBs

  177. Loser Larson
    Posted November 10, 2016 at 11:54 pm | Permalink

    Everyone must wage a brutal fight now. We have no choice.

  178. EOS
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 5:56 am | Permalink

    Obama said before the election that this was all about his legacy. The majority of Americans who suffered through 8 years of his policies decided that they couldn’t take another 4 years. It’s apparent that the party that claimed to be all about love and tolerance is now exhibiting nothing but hate and intolerance.

    We have a presidential election every 4 years. Someone wins and someone loses every time. Soros is wrong for bussing large numbers of persons to locations where they protest in the streets and vandalize property. U of M is wrong for holding candlelight vigils on the diag and suggesting that the entire community is grieving and should use professional counseling services. Larsen is wrong when he claims that you are at war with every individual who exercised their right to vote and determined that a different candidate was a better choice to bring forward policies to benefit their families.

    It is disingenuous to suggest that the majority of Americans who choose a black president twice have now become racist and sexist because they made a different choice this time. But the one thing that you should take from this election is that categorizing other people into groups based on their sex or racial identity or level of education and then ridiculing them for their personal characteristics is not a good strategy for winning friends or votes.

  179. stupid hick
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    EOS, did you know it was actually Soros who hired Hillary Clinton to murder Vince Foster? It was exposed a long, long, time ago by Daisy Luther, but it’s been scrubbed from the web by the liberal media and Soros pays Google millions of dollars per month to keep it out of their search engines. It’s true! I read it in the Washington Times but now I can’t find it. Nobody can.

  180. EOS
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    @ stupid hick,

    No, I was not aware.

  181. Loser Larson
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:02 am | Permalink

    I am at war with anyone who voted for Trump.

    As was the case with Ron Paul, not all of his supporters were bigots, but he had no problem providing them comfort. Anyone who would support someone who willingly courts racists is an enemy.

    They need to be attacked at every turn, both verbally and in writing. They have chosen to wage violence on their opponents by electing a bigot who has no qualms about violence. The only way to deal with those people is to fight back and call them out wherever possible.

    And, no, it wasn’t a majority of Americans, as of now it appears it was a minority of people who voted who put Trump in office. The electoral college allowed the bigot/groper in chief to roll in.

    And, to be honest, I didn’t hate Bush I or II, Romney or McCain. As destructive as Bush II was, I was pretty sure that he was dedicated to public service and truly wanted was what best for the world, in spite of everything. With Romney, McCain and Bush I, it was clear.

    Trump a different beast. If people think he represents some conservative ideology, they are wrong. He has no ideology.

  182. Loser Larson
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    George Soros also collaborated with Dutch royalty to kill children.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbhMfZRhsXw&feature=youtu.be

  183. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:23 am | Permalink

    It hurts. To see that white America voted this chump in. That so many among us did not care about the threat he posed, couldn’t see it, because it was not aimed directly at us. In the case of women, as is so often the case, many refused to acknowledge the bodily threat aimed at them. Many women believe other women deserve what they get because they are immoral women. I knew this but I guess I underestimated the strength of that narrative. My daughter gave me a “pussy grabs back” tshirt and now it sits forlornly in its package. I thought I might toss it, but my guess is I’ll be needing it sooner rather than later.

    People of color voted for Hillary by overwhelming margins, and their turnout except in certain pockets was not down by much. It’s hard to be game to play in a system that tries so hard to exclude you. Very young people voted overwhelmingly for Clinton across the country. In 20 years maybe we will demographically grow past this horror.

    I have friends deep into the work of climate action at an international level, and they don’t believe Trump can stop the green tech innovation that is happening. Too much money to be made. A big chunk of the 5 billion for green tech abroad from the paris climate agreement is already out there circulating. Also fracking has almost killed the coal industry, so it’s unlikely he can revive that. He can suspend research on the science. But I don’t think he can stop the tech advances.

    So points for Neo-liberalism I guess, right? Might just save our lazy disinterested asses that some people really like to make money by anticipating change and meeting the needs ahead.

    That’s all I have to hang my hat on. A tiny bit of hope, that we will survive to age out of this bigotry.

  184. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:37 am | Permalink

    And then the dismal reality keeps pouring in: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-russia-in-touch-election_us_582475f5e4b0d9ce6fc0e5f4

    It will no doubt make Alan happy to know that Trump’s campaign has been consulting with the Kremlin throughout the election season. I feel so warm and fuzzy and safe now.

  185. EOS
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    Bigotry definition: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.

    I think many Clinton supporters are shining examples of bigotry in action. You attempt to demonize all political opinions that differs from your own. You sling mud and call names and shout down any form of dissent. You don’t even hold out the possibility that people chose Trump for any reason other than racism or sexism.

    I don’t doubt that you think the Democratic Party has the solutions to many of today’s problems. I don’t doubt that you sincerely believe she was the better candidate. I just think that you were misled by a constant stream of biased reporting and an indoctrination led by academia, the mainstream media, and collectivism engineered by the elite.

    8 years of Obama didn’t improve the condition of our country. Let’s let Trump try a different set of tactics and see the result. Let’s get businesses back in the USA employing all Americans. Let’s try to avoid endless wars. Let’s change the tax laws to remove the breaks for the wealthy. Let’s see what happens when we put America first.

  186. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Hillary Clinton didn’t just win the popular vote. She won it by a substantial margin.
    By the time all the ballots are counted, she seems likely to be ahead by more than 2 million votes and more than 1.5 percentage points, according to my Times colleague Nate Cohn. She will have won by a wider percentage margin than not only Al Gore in 2000 but also Richard Nixon in 1968 and John F. Kennedy in 1960.
    David Leonhardt
    NYTimes Op-Ed Columnist

  187. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    EOS– I have called out anti-conservative bigotry on the left– and plain old bias. There’s plenty of it to go around. BUT there is a difference between being oppositional to entrenched interests and being oppositional to the already marginalized.

    And the difference is in the risk of actual harm entailed in those biases.

    Duh… Big duh.

    Like real threat. So stop botching about how you are victimized but how they should toughen up.

    We are facing real harm now. This is not rhetoric. The way you feel about those unborn fetuses, that’s how we fill about the risk of physicla harm and displacement and further impoverishment and exclusion of people of color. muslims, the disabled and LGBTQ people from the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    So shut the fuck up. It’s going to get ugly. Stay out or I will cut you, Bitch.

  188. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:52 am | Permalink

    8 years of Obama DID improve our country from the fucking disaster it was via the very same economic mechanisms you champion.

    Your magical thinking extends beyond religion.

  189. EOS
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    So shut the fuck up. It’s going to get ugly. Stay out or I will cut you, Bitch.

    Wow. How Progressive of you.

  190. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    Oh please bring your moralistic judgment on me. How very Christian of you.

    Your viewpoint now threatens my well being and the well being of people I love. So yeah, I will not play nice with you anymore.

    Jesus would throw you out of the church if he knew how you bastardized his religion.

  191. Demetrius
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:08 am | Permalink

    Jean Henry: “So shut the fuck up. It’s going to get ugly. Stay out or I will cut you, Bitch.”

    Just let that sink in a bit, everybody …

  192. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    There is nothing about progressivism that says I can’t fight back. Christianity on the other hand demands that you turn the other cheek. So please do. Let’s see how that works.

    I learned, growing up among committed pacifists who got abused regularly by bullies, that I was not ever going to be one of them.

  193. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:12 am | Permalink

    Demetrius clearly does not feel this threat personally. He would, as always like to condemn the actions of those who do, and then assure them that he has all the answers to help them.

  194. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    But I meant rhetorically obviously… duh twice. Yeah, I’m angry now Demetrius. Why aren’t you?

  195. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:25 am | Permalink

    “If I had my life to live over, I would do it all again, but this time I would be nastier.”
    —Jeannette Rankin (1880-1973), first woman elected to Congress

  196. Demetrius
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    @ Jean

    Why do you think you’re the only one who’s upset by this election?

    Believe me … I’m angry, sad, and more than a little anxious about what the ultimate outcome of will be.

    The difference is that I believe the main thing we need to be doing right now is having some serious conversations (among ourselves, about what went wrong with the Clinton campaign) and YES – even with those who disagree with us (to try to figure out why nearly 50 percent of Americans voted for someone like Trump.)

    What I don’t believe will help right now is continuing to lash out at opponents (let alone some allies) – by calling them racist, sexist, stupid, etc.

    What I think helps even less is telling people you disagree with to “shut the fuck up” and threatening to “cut a bitch” like some bratty 11 year-old who is trying to act tough on Twitter.

  197. Thom Elliott
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:38 am | Permalink

    Bigotry doesn’t exist in the vacuum certain local fascists want to represent it as, it isn’t merely intolerance of difference. You represent an overt enemy to gays, people of color, etc anyone not white and christianist. It is right to rebel against the reactionary, the contradictions between our people are intrinsic to the heart of beings themselves. Whether you have good intentions for your race and superior religion etc are irrelevant, you are the enemy. Liberals may not see the danger you represent, but I do. This is why dialectics are tragic, you may have some commendable ideals etc, but the contradiction between us represented by antagonism is and will always be first. Death to fascism.

  198. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:51 am | Permalink

    http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/11/students_at_dewitt_school_form.html

    Jesus Demetrius, we should not be spending our time confirming our bias.

    White women threw people of color under the bus. That’s the story. Divide and conquer. Bigotry has won and it must be fought. I don;t give a fuck about your self-serving analysis. My point was that your position never properly valued the voice of people of color, people with disabilities, Muslims, etc etc. It only vlued a leftist rhetoric about the working class. Rhetoric that denied the long history of how the working class and labor was used to marginalize people of color. Even whote women (Rosie the Riveter) was used to marginalize people of color. And we celebrate it unconditionally because it fits our damn narrative.

    White people need to step back and stop offering even well meaning solutions. They have been drinking from a poisoned well. People of color voted intelligently. LGBTQ people voted intelligently. First time voters voted intelligently in numbers that would give the left overwhelming victories. And they are emergent. So we can have that conversation about degrees of socialism later. The election is over. Bernie and Hillary both lost to a bigot.

    Time to pivot to the social justice battle. I think you might learn a lot. About anger that is legitimate. About the need to explore your discomfort. And move away from ideology and into exploring why white people (our class) are so fucked up.

    I’m glad I’m moving to Whitmore Lake. There’s a lot of work to do in places like that. I’m not interested in the liberal circle firing squad cluster fuck anymore.

  199. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    Demetrius: you can start with looking up ‘tone policing.’

    I’m glad I make you uncomfortable. Every white person needs to be more uncomfortable every day. We need to dive into our discomfort and our willful detachment from issues of social justice. We need to fight inwardly and outwardly.

  200. EOS
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    No Thom,

    I’m not a fascist. I’m a lone individual who has an opinion who happens to be white and a Christian. I have as much right to have a seat at the table, and a part in the discussion, as any other individual. I am not an enemy to gays or people of color or everyone who doesn’t look like me. I am not a threat to any individual. My only weapon is reason.

  201. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:01 am | Permalink

    The way liberal white men have shown that they cant stand powerful women has made me very sad. That chiding not to be angry from white men is insulting but says more about Demetrius than anything else.

  202. EOS
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    No Lynne,

    Jeanne’s comment suggests that she might have just finished binge watching 4 years of “Orange is the New Black”. It is not appropriate in a civil conversation. It is not appropriate among intelligent persons. It does not further her cause and it diminishes her voice. It felt threatening to me. I’ve tried to be sensitive and I haven’t been gloating. I will excuse it due to her emotional state after a disappointing election. But I hope comments like this don’t continue.

  203. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    Lynne: “I think every person of color, every woman, every queer person, has every right to be filled with hate and anger right now.”

    True. Every right to be furious at the DNC for nominating an unelectable candidate, and for stealing the nom from an electable one — one who was on a very obvious upward trajectory, attracting huge crowds of enthusiastic supporters, filling NFL stadiums, etc., (like Trump), and this while Hillary was having trouble filling high school gymnasiums. The pictures of her “rallies” told the pathetic story. But the DNC hacks and their armies of idiot sycophants wanted to believe the “polls” which showed a commanding lead. What a sham. Yes, they have every right to be furious.

    Jean: “People of color voted for Hillary by overwhelming margins, and their turnout except in certain pockets was not down by much.”

    Was Wayne County a “pocket”? …
    votes for Obama in 2012: ~600,000
    votes for Hillary in 2016: ~470,000

    That’s HUGE. A 20+% reduction.

    To say that Hillary was an uninspiring candidate is the understatement of the decade. Total apathy. And for good reason.

  204. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    Expect it to continue EOS. It was a warning. Gloves off. You are now an enemy with power. So it’s very very different.

  205. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:15 am | Permalink

    Yes Thom, the definition of words is fascist. Death to the definitions of words.

  206. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:17 am | Permalink

    Wayne County was in fact an outlier Alan. I pointed that up earlier. Glad you noticed. The larger numbers are readily available. Please stop picking and choosing your data to support your narrative.

    Lots of reasons for a reduced turn out. Open bigotry might have been more of a suppressive fact than their distrust of Clinton. They never voted for Sanders in large numbers except the young, so please stop pretending his agenda appealed to them. Maybe they will grow into accepting a leftist v aspirational approach. Meanwhile, Let it go.

    The work is daily in addressing bigotry and hatred like EOS spouts. The owrk is in listening to the pained voices of people of color. And shutting up for a while. which is what I’m going to do now. This particular demographic is not the one I need to be listening to.

  207. Demetrius
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    So let me get this straight:

    If a woman continually lashes out at people, calling them racist, sexist, stupid, etc., tells them to “shut the fuck up” and threatens to “cut a bitch,” – she is merely exercising her righteous anger.

    However, if a man calls these tactics into question, and merely suggests this approach may ultimately be counterproductive – he is “tone policing,” “insulting,” and “can’t stand powerful women.”

    Good to know.

  208. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    Yep, Demetrius. That is how it is. It is similar to the concept in comedy where it is ok to punch up but not to punch down. Trust me, it is a small privilege compared to the privilege you enjoy. Maybe take some time to reflect on how it feels for it to be socially acceptable for others to do something you can’t do and you might develop just a sliver of empathy.

  209. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    The backlash has begun. There are reports every where. this is a copied post from a friend in Ann Arbor.
    “I don’t post about politics, but can’t be silent any longer. This is for anyone that voted for Trump.
    I am so ashamed of you. You can hide behind love now, but when you voted for Trump, you voted for Hate. My sister-in-law was yelled at, told she should stay in the home and was called a f***ing slut on the way into work this morning. This is what you chose with your vote. You personally may not believe in doing things like this, but when you voted for Trump, you gave permission to those that do. I won’t sit quietly by and pretend it’s ok. It’s NOT ok. I will not abide you and your giving permission for violence and hate.”

    Grab whatever weapon you have to protect yourself. Nasty words work really well. I once told a man who was trying to assault me that I would scratch out his eyeballs an piss on his brain if he came any closer. It worked. Armed with ready anger.

  210. D.L.
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:39 am | Permalink

    Focus, people. In-fighting isn’t going to get us anywhere.

  211. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    I never called any one racist, sexist or stupid . I said things people said were racist, sexist and stupid. We all say things that are racist or sexist or stupid sometimes. When you buy into any entire political philosophy that dismisses or diminishes the legitimate anger and fear of others to further its own aims, I might say those things repeatedly.

    And thanks Lynne.

  212. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:45 am | Permalink

    The MM.com community is not unique. All the clues you need to explain why Trump was elected are in the comment sections of this blog. Short of intense self-re-examination I don’t expect different results in 4 years.

  213. Bob
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Alan, there is no use in making sense here. You’re arguing with people who only see this election and outcome as sexist. They don’t get that it was about jobs, as it always is. They voted for Trump in spite of his sexism, racism, and general stupidity. They didn’t vote because of it. She ran a bad campaign that inspired no one except for her most loyal apologists. The Clinton name is attached to NAFTA, and she missed the writing on the wall. She didn’t even address it. She was too busy picking out the drapes for the Oval Office. She ignored Michigan. Like Ohio and Florida in past elections, we are this cycles goats. Michigan will take much of the blame for the Trump presidency. And it’s gonna hurt.

  214. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    “My neighbor’s daughter had her ass grabbed by a man in Ypsi who said “this will be mine. I’ve seen you around before. This is a free country now, bitch.” Police report filed.”

    Armed with anger.

  215. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:11 am | Permalink

    Jean: “It will no doubt make Alan happy to know that Trump’s campaign has been consulting with the Kremlin throughout the election season.”

    Ummm… Jean! JEAN! Wake up, Jean! ….
    http://markmaynard.com/2016/11/election-day-live-blog/#comment-906120

  216. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:14 am | Permalink

    Peter: “Your ignorance is stunning.”

    Then please hold forth! Let the brilliant flame of your erudition illuminate our sadly benighted minds.

  217. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    FF– Duh! The MM community is almost entirely lacking in voices of color.

    And extremely few women, who regularly take it on the chin for being feminist in rhetoric we recognize as gender bias (and no you don’t see it, becuase you can’t). This is a bro-club.

    Shit Pete talks about growing up poor, and he’s told his experience is invalid.

    Any experience or perspective that doesn’t confirm the leftist narrative is ridiculed or produces anger. And the thing is most of us are way the fuck over on the left. Just not far enough. What happens here on the regular is ideological warfare. It’s not any kind of salient point making. It’s for sure not representative. You guys need a lot more thorns in your sides for this blog to be more than confirmation bias and Trotskyite v Leninist type BS,

    This is not the work. The work is in social justice. The spikes in threats and violence will make that clear soon enough.

    But there will be no introspection here about how fucked up white people are broadly in this country, because you can just blame it on the moneyed elite or the GOP. And no one here will counter you.

    There is a serious gap, and I don’t blame others for steering clear.

  218. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Jean Henry: “BREXIT was also about bigotry.”

    Ironically, that is a bigoted view. Brexit was about much more than that, just as Trump’s win was about much more than that. But it is grimly amusing to see just how blind to this are those in the grip of the identity-politics obsession. It is as though ALL THEY CAN SEE is bigotry, leading to the supreme irony: they become bigots, themselves.

  219. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    The best thing about Mark’s radio show v this space is that it allows in more diverse voices. This is the kind of thing you dudes are missing:

    “I woke up out of my dead sleep an hour ago. I knew Trump won before I went to bed. I just thought I might have a full nights sleep first. I’m the only one awake at my place so woke up lonely and deeply sad.

    So I came here. Looking for something. Sometimes it just feels too big, too overwhelming. The deep hatred and anger in America had always been there. But sometimes… Sometimes you know a relationship has been over for years, but hearing the words “I don’t love you” still cuts deeply

    That is where I am. I know America hates me. I know it is full of bigotry and ignorance. I have no illusions. It still hurts to hear. This feeling I feel now is one I haven’t felt in years. Not since arguing kids out of jail.

    I had a girl on probation. She’d done everything we’d asked of her. The hard work, the soul searching, brought up her grades, stayed out of trouble. She had done so well she’d been selected to represent our program in Albany. But the case that had brought her to us a year earlier although minor, was a probation violation. But nobody had bothered to violate her. So here we are with our model child, excited to advocate for juvenile justice.

    And the police come to arrest her.

    I had never been an expert witness before, but I tried my best to present her case.”She is EXACTLY what you want from us!” spoke of her achievements, her grades, her progress, her mentorship of others, her empathy, her dedication. She turned to me after I stepped off the stand and said “Thank you, Mister for fighting for me. Its not going to matter”

    My heart broke
    They’re gonna to see all you’ve done”

    “No, Mister. They won’t”

    “But…”

    “Its ok.”

    I knew she was right, but I a 20 something idealist wouldn’t accept the truth this 14 year old kid didn’t even question. The system didn’t care about her. Didn’t respect her. Didn’t care if she rehabilitated or not.

    I thought reason might prevail
    She knew.
    As I watched the light go out of her eyes as she was led away something in me broke. I left the courthouse and wandered the street in tears
    How could it be THIS fucked?
    How was I so powerless to lose a child who should have been a model case.
    How could the system be so dense?
    I’ve never been caught off guard by the system and its hatred again.
    I wasn’t tonight either

    But the FEELING is back

    I studied that case. I pored over it. Every bit of evidence, every word of testimony, every trick prosecution used. I fucking armed myself with knowledge and vengeance. I couldn’t do anything more for this girl, but I could do more for others. On that stand, I’d been unprepared for the dirty tricks. I would never be again. I never was again. I squared off with that prosecutor five more times and sent him packing each time.

    There is nothing we can do to change the outcome of this election.

    Its done.

    But we are not.

    This is one if those times. Where we must break. To take in the overwhelming reality and face it head on with all the pain it brings.
    Don’t put on a happy mask and pretend it’s normal. There’s nothing normal here.

    Its ok to break. America needs to sit here an cry it out for a moment because we are face to face with the truth of our country.
    We can’t pretend anymore.
    Its time for our illusions to come down.

    That we are in a post racial society.
    That the crowd will do the right thing.
    That facts matter.
    We need to come out from behind our comfort zones and bubbles and look at our country without the lenses of exceptionalism.

    Now we know.

    We are not more empathetic than Germany.
    More savvy than Brexiters.
    We are not more serious about our democracy.
    We’re just a fallible country full of regular fucking humans like everywhere else.

    We. Are. Not. Immune.
    Its ok to break. America needs to sit here an cry it out for a moment because we are face to face with the truth of our country

    Take a deep breath.

    When you exhale, realize that we are still in this together. And we have a chance. If we choose to take it, to drop our facades

    I am thankful for you. All of you. For your support, for your love, for your passion.
    Let this be a day of clarity.
    Let today remind you to connect with others. Share in your pain. Marvel and grieve.

    Trump’s presidency is a result of us not really seeing each other or our country for who we are and what it is.

    We can fix that. We can fix it especially if the elevation of Trump wakes us up to the truth of bigotry.

    I see a lot of surprised white people this morning.
    Im talking to you now surprised white people.
    I wanna bring you in for an empathy moment.

    This feeling you have right now. Amazement that the country could be so short-sighted, that it could embrace hate so tightly?

    Welcome.

    This despair and dread you feel. The indignation, the bewilderment, the hurt, powerlessness, the fear for family and livelihood?
    That knot in your stomach, that feeling of heartache? That uncertainty about your safety? The deep sense of fundamental injustice?

    Welcome.

    For many marginalized people, this spike in distress you feel this morning is what we feel EVERY morning. That feeling of “How could they possibly…?” is precisely what we feel with every incidence of excused violence, disenfranchisement, denialI do not say this to diminish what you feel today. What you feel is real and valid.

    I’m giving you an opportunity to truly empathize.

    For it is the lack of that empathy that allowed America to shrug as the marginalized shouted warnings.
    Today the imaginary wall that divides your experience from ours has come down.

    You have the chance to commune with the rest of us.
    This needs to be a moment where you realize that you are not alone in your pain.

    That there are those of us who know it intimately.

    Let this be the last time you are surprised by the prevalence of virulent hatred in this country. Let it be a moment that opens your eyes. This is a time that you can move on from the childish insistence that America is #1, grow up and recognize it as gravely ill.

    This can be a time for you to stop side-eying those who insist that something is and has always been something deeply wrong.

    Skip the hand wringing about how you didn’t see this coming and move to the part where you get on board to come down into the trenchesI see people talking about how Trump is #NotMyPresident.

    Yes he damn well is.

    It’s really important that you get this cause its key.
    Refusing culpability for America’s actions is how we GOT Trump

    Trump is an opportunistic infection that America let fester and grow in an immunocompromised environment

    America’s neglect of its own health comes directly from its stubborn insistence that nothing is as bad as it looks When we minimized the outrage about rape, about racism, about fascism and ignorance, about marginalization we created a space ripe for Trump.

    Trump is our President because we and the people who voted for him are still in the same boat as much as we’d like to deny it.
    Another country didn’t elect Trump. This one did. Your neighbors and relatives and co-workers and friends did. We are inextricably bound. We cannot wish this half of America away.

    But we can sure as hell challenge it.”

  220. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    One more time: Trump captured a higher percentage of the black vote than any Republican candidate has been able to capture in a long time. Try to figure out why. It might be indicative of something….

  221. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    It’s 8% FF. Are you trying to tell me 8% of the Black vote represents some kind of overwhelming and meaningful shift? 8% 8% 8% 8% 8%

    Stop framing the data politically to suit your narrative.

    Here are some anecdotes for you. Her is your great populist revolution that you REFUSE to see as an assertion of white supremacy.

    https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

  222. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    You, Lynne and many others have claimed that it is obvious to everyone that Trump is a racist and sexist. I actually accept that judgment. Let’s assume we are right and it is obvious that the sexism and racism is obvious, then yes (!), it is extremely interesting that black voters chose Trump at a relatively high rate compared to other Republican candidates. Something pushed them to vote Trump despite Trump’s very strong rhetoric pushing them away. Hmmm, I wonder what pushed them to vote Trump? I wonder what pushed black people to vote against not just Hillary, but against the followers of the left?

    It sounds like the protests in OREGON were among the ugliest so far….

  223. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/us/police-investigate-attacks-on-muslim-students-at-universities.html

  224. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    FF– a Muslim student has already been murdered. There are assaults everywhere. I can;t keep up with the reports of them I left the bubble of MM and they were everywhere.

    Please stop this.

    We are in crisis. And the issue is White Supremacy. And you want to talk about the pain fo the working class. Now is not the time.

  225. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    the jump from 6 – 8% of black GOP voters is not news worthy. Unless it suits your political aim to divert a racist shit show into a conversation about labor.

    Later

  226. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    *sigh* Well, at least I have more of an idea of what willful blindness to systemic issues feels like. I have been guilty of it in terms of my white privilege and boy are the men in this discussion guilty of it now in terms of their male privilege. Easily dismissing any point of view that doesn’t match their top-of-the-social-heap view.

    Instead of seeing how obviously sexist this race was, they are seriously blaming the loss on Clinton ignoring the needs of white men? Never mind that she actually had a better and more realistic jobs plan. Never mind that she supports a strong social safety net that benefits the rural poor in red states much more than the urban poor in other states. The fact that liberal dudes are ignoring this *is* sexist. And while I personally agree that Sanders’ policies would be better, I also know that Clinton’s would have had a better chance of actually being implemented which could have been a good stepping stone for getting to the more lofty goals of the far left.

    Oh well, Trump lied. He *can’t* bring in new jobs so he won’t. He is going to do all he can to yank the safety net from poor rural white people. He will do NOTHING to stop the trends in white rural America. There will still be a brain drain and their young people will either go to college and leave for the more job friendly coasts or they will stay in those small rural areas, uneducated and unemployed or underemployed except now earning less (no increases in min wage so each year inflation eats at that wage) and with no safety net. And the best part? They will still blame the left and coastal elites and black people and Mexicans and NAFTA even though they really should blame themselves for how they vote.

    The poor Trump voters are going to suffer. The richer ones will benefit. Race has been used to divide the rural and urban poor yet again even though in many ways their interests are aligned. White people have proved, yet again, that being one step above poor black people is better than actual change that will help them.

    Frankly, the message I get from this election is that it is time to abandon the concerns of rural white people entirely. They are not ready to abandon their sexism and racism. The left has for too long been paying too much attention to their needs at the expense of every other demographic and I think the Democrats can find new strength in a base made up of POC, women, and woke liberal white men and women (although how woke white people are is a matter of debate).

  227. Frosted Flakes
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    No, I was not thinking that the promise of jobs was the reason Trump captured a relatively high percentage of black voters….Something pushed black voters away from voting with you guys….I wonder what it was?

  228. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    Trump supporters threaten to attack if they lose and then they attack when they win too— Broadly all across the country. The populist uprising can’t get enough. It mostly appears to be happening on college campuses too. (though that may be who reports it) True working class rebellion.

    Did we fail to feel sorry enough for them?

    I hope Michael Moore finally stops talking long enough to think. But that seems unlikely.

    I told you they were racist sexist assholes. Not all but many. And the rest tolerate and excuse them, because that’s how you survive. I don’t hate them any more than I hate you all for denying bias (with a lot of determination) like we are making this stuff up. But I do blame you and all of us for every minute we ignore the real issue

    I’m already working on some training sessions here on how to be allies to Muslim women and men and people of coloe and on setting up dialogue roundtables across belief systems.

    But if they come for someone I love or anyone, I will defend them. I’m ordering pepper spray as we speak.

  229. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    FF it’s not relatively high percentage. You are smoking crack. But I posited a few ideas. 1) wanting broad systemic change anyway possible 2) religious conservativism 3) not thinking the Dem party served them.

    But it didn’t turn the election, so I’m unclear why you keep talking about it like it disproves the racism in the Trump campaign. It was openly sexist too and women voted for it. We learn to laugh bias off. We live with it daily. That’s how you survive, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok. Black people laugh off white ignorance and bias daily. They know it exists. But its still hurts.

    I learned to laugh when I got beat up as a child. You do what you gotta do.

  230. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    Have you ever heard the term “Uncle Tom”?

    Sometimes oppressed people ally themselves with the dominant group in exchange for safety and status. I often think that had I been raised in different circumstances and with the physical beauty that buys women status in our country, I may not have been a feminist. I wonder if I had gotten a rich white man to marry me and if he was good and not abusive so I felt safe under his protection, if I would have even seen how messed up the system is. It really is easier to see systemic problems when one experiences them first hand. It is more easy to see them if one is close to those who experience it themselves too which is why it is easier for me to see how racist our society is than it is for white people who don’t have contact with people of color.

  231. Demetrius
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    @ Lynne

    I’ve rarely seen anyone be so dismissive while decrying the alleged dismissiveness of others.

    I haven’t seen a single poster here say that racism, sexism, homophobia were not significant factors in this election. What I an others are trying to suggest is that they weren’t the only (or perhaps even the defining) ones.

    As others have tried to point out: In some areas, there was a significant swing among working-class white voters from Obama (in ’08 and ’12) toward Trump. A greater percentage of Black voters supported Trump than voted for Romney, and Black turnout was down significantly in some crucial areas. A majority of white women supported Trump … and even 14 percent of self-described LBGT voters.

    But none of these facts fit your narrative … so you and Jean just keep going back to the well: “willful blindness,” “white male privilege,” “tone policing,” “insulting,” etc.

    If – in running against someone as clearly awful and ill-suited as Donald Trump – Hillary Clinton was unable to win handily among all of these groups, and thus gain what should have been a landslide in the Electoral College, I think it is more than valid to question whether she was the right candidate to represent the Democrats in this election, and whether her campaign was run effectively.

    If you want to continue to dismiss that … so be it, but some of us are actually interested in learning from the mistakes that were made, so we can hopefully avoid them next time.

  232. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “Wayne County was in fact an outlier Alan. I pointed that up earlier. Glad you noticed. The larger numbers are readily available. Please stop picking and choosing your data to support your narrative.”

    It was similar in Wisconsin. It was similar in Pennsylvania. And elsewhere. Please stop ignoring data that fails to support your narrative.

    Further: Pew Research: “Clinton held an 80-point advantage among blacks (88% to 8%) compared with Obama’s 87-point edge four years ago (93% to 6%). In 2008, Obama had a 91-point advantage among blacks.”

    Do you see a pattern there? It is clear. Here it is again:
    2008: 91
    2012: 87
    2016: 80

    What does this tell us? It tells us (or at least me) that blacks are becoming dissatisfied with the gruel of dogshit offered them by the DP. They are not buying-in as much as they once did to the identity-politics fraud perpetrated by Jean and millions like her. They are coming to understand — slowly — that Obama was a fraud, and so is the rest of the DP as presently constituted. (Though that may start changing, now!)

  233. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    Frosted Flakes: “One more time: Trump captured a higher percentage of the black vote than any Republican candidate has been able to capture in a long time. Try to figure out why. It might be indicative of something….”

    Yes, it is. See my post immediately above. Blacks are starting to see through the fraud of identity politics.

    Jean: It’s 8% FF. Are you trying to tell me 8% of the Black vote represents some kind of overwhelming and meaningful shift?”

    Overwhelming? No. Meaningful? Hell yes! 8% for Trump?! Yes, most meaningful.

  234. Jcp2
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Comrade Alan,

    I’m so happy you have returned. You dislike Clinton, that is clear. You call Obama a fraud. How much of a fraud was he? Was he this much?

    “An ‘extremely credible source’ has called my office and told me that @BarackObama’s birth certificate is a fraud.”

  235. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Elsewhere on the internet, marginalized people are telling white liberals to stop expressing shock and dismay at the degree of racism evident in the results because the harm and hurt and risk is much more real to others.

    Here on MM the denial persists.

    https://bullshit.ist/on-woke-white-people-advertising-their-shock-that-racism-just-won-a-presidency-68286682047d#.w1psn0ofl

  236. Stokely Carbuncle
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

    Cursing is the expression of impotence.

  237. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Re: “I’ve rarely seen anyone be so dismissive while decrying the alleged dismissiveness of others.”

    Just look in the mirror dude. You are being just as dismissive of what doesn’t fit YOUR narrative but in addition to that, you are acting like your white male perspective is more important and are getting butt hurt when someone tells you that it isn’t. It isn’t.

    What you are trying to suggest is that racism and sexism weren’t the only reasons and I don’t disagree with that. But they were the defining reasons. The problem isn’t that white men were ignored. Clinton had real plans that would help them which were much superior to anything Trump had to offer. The problem is that they weren’t put front and center and told that their problems are more important than those of anyone else. I don’t think that not catering enough to their privilege was the mistake. The mistake was not catering too much to their needs at the expense of everyone else.

  238. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 2:00 pm | Permalink

    er The mistake was catering too much to their needs at the expense of everyone else

  239. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “the Sanders campaign and many of his supporters whom I talked to at length, believed that addressing income inequality would magically address other issues under the social justice umbrella”

    They are right. It would. Except for the word “magically”, which should be changed to “gradually”. (Nothing will happen “magically”!) Addressing income/wealth inequality, and instituting a more-socialistic order, would take care of most (though not all) of the major non-economic social justice issues, over time.

    Jean: “I can’t tell you how many times I was called a SJW (Social Justice Warrior) dismissively by white men on the left. Men who absolutely were adamant about addressing income inequality, primarily via redistribution. So if they care about social justice more broadly – including the other components, neither Sanders nor many of his followers made that evident.”

    They did not “make it evident” because they did not need to. Addressing income/wealth inequality, and generally socialistic reconstruction of society, takes care of most of the problems you are exercised about. Not all, but most. You were called an SJW, dismissively, because you are obsessed with identity politics, and are hence not a true leftist, but a fake leftist, a pseudo-leftist.

    Jean: “Bigotry is the great American problem. Not income inequality.”

    Spoken like the identity politics-besotted pseudo-leftist that you are.

    A few essential features of the pseudo-left; I’m sure you’ll see yourself in here, Jean:

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/07/30/pers-j30.html
    What is the pseudo-left?
    snip
    * The pseudo-left denotes political parties, organizations and theoretical/ideological tendencies which utilize populist slogans and democratic phrases to promote the socioeconomic interests of privileged and affluent strata of the middle class.
    * The pseudo-left is anti-socialist, opposes class struggle, and denies the central role of the working class and the necessity of revolution in the progressive transformation of society. It counterposes supra-class populism to the independent political organization and mass mobilization of the working class against the capitalist system. The economic program of the pseudo-left is, in its essentials, pro-capitalist and nationalistic.
    * The pseudo-left promotes “identity politics,” fixating on issues related to nationality, ethnicity, race, gender and sexuality in order to acquire greater influence in corporations, the colleges and universities, the higher-paying professions, the trade unions and in government and state institutions, to effect a more favorable distribution of wealth among the richest 10 percent of the population. The pseudo-left seeks greater access to, rather than the destruction of, social privilege.
    * In the imperialist centers of North America, Western Europe and Australasia, the pseudo-left is generally pro-imperialist, and utilizes the slogans of “human rights” to legitimize, and even directly support, neo-colonialist military operations.

  240. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    A few more links and snippets about the pseudo-left:

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/05/kris-a05.html
    The political agenda behind the racial politics of the New York Times’ Nicholas Kristof

    …………………..

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/08/19/gina-a19.html
    The pseudo-left and identity politics: RIO solidarizes itself with “Gina-Lisa” and promotes law and order

    …………………..

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/01/dnor-a01.html
    Marxism and the pseudo-left: David North interviewed at Leipzig Book Fair

    ……………………

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/07/29/pers-j29.html
    Obama’s legacy: Identity politics in the service of war
    snip
    In the promotion of Obama’s candidacy, his racial background was presented, particularly by the pseudo-left, as some kind of credential for progressive and antiwar politics, even as a close examination of his political record showed that he was no opponent of militarism…. While Obama’s election was hailed by the pseudo-left as “transformative,” what has emerged over the course of his administration, facilitated by these same political forces, has been the utilization of identity politics in the furtherance of US imperialism.
    This formula was on full display at the Philadelphia convention, where identity politics -— the promotion of race, gender and sexual orientation as the defining features of political and social life -— was woven directly into an unabashed celebration of American militarism.
    snip
    [The] political evolution of the Democratic Party is not merely the matter of machinations within the party leadership and the state apparatus. It has a social base within a privileged social layer that has moved sharply to the right, providing a new constituency for war and imperialism. The systematic fixation on the issues of race, gender and sexual orientation -— deliberately opposed to that of class -— has provided a key ideological foundation for this reactionary turn.

    ………………….

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/08/30/pers-a30.html
    The socioeconomic basis of identity politics: Inequality and the rise of an African American elite
    At a point when the American people are more tolerant in their social views than at any previous time in history, they are informed on a daily basis that the US seethes with racial and ethnic hatreds, along with violent misogyny and homophobia.
    The Democratic Party, supported by all of the various left-liberal and pseudo-left trends, is particularly aggressive and vociferous on this score. Identity politics, the self-centered, upper-middle-class obsession with race, gender and sexual identity, has become one of that party’s principal pillars.
    As opposed to earlier periods, today the question of race is not associated with civil rights, with a major program of social reform, with improvements in the social conditions of the working class as a whole and certainly not with socialism. The debate on race is largely built around demands for the allocation of greater economic resources to sections of the black petty bourgeoisie. There is a marked and noticeable absence of democratic demands and sentiments within the leadership of these upper-middle-class movements.
    snip
    The obsession with race and gender involves the striving for privileges by a layer of black and female professionals, determined to carve out careers and incomes -— under conditions of an intensely competitive “marketplace” -— at the expense of their white or male counterparts. The shrillness and falsity of the current campaigns on race and sexual violence has much to do with the need, in the face of the fact that there is no significant racial or gender pay gap for these already affluent layers, to leverage past crimes and injustice, and exaggerate the present conditions, to justify continued or greater privileges. This is a bitter conflict taking place within the richest 5 to 10 percent (approximately $190,000 to $130,000 in annual income) of the population.
    There is nothing “progressive” or “left-wing” about these campaigns and conflicts. Whether or not the president of the United States is a man or woman or the CEO of a bank or major corporation is white or black is of no possible interest to the working class. E. Franklin Frazier noted half a century ago that black business and political interests had “exploited the Negro masses as ruthlessly as have whites.”

  241. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 2:14 pm | Permalink

    JCP2: Won’t take the bait, pal. Sorry. And cut the “comrade” shit. It isn’t funny. It was not even that funny when I originally used it, in joking reference to the Stalinism insinuations being thrown my way. But you using it now, apparently completely unaware of its meaning, is just stupid and embarrassing.

  242. Jcp2
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    Comrade Alan,

    Some more data for your high level analysis. You will always be a comrade to me. But not a brother. Just a bro.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-trump-got-his-edge/

  243. Demetrius
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

    Extremely relevant to this discussion:

    Debbie Dingell: “I said Clinton was in trouble with the voters I represent. Democrats didn’t listen.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-said-clinton-was-in-trouble-with-the-voters-i-represent-democrats-didnt-listen/2016/11/10/0e9521a6-a796-11e6-ba59-a7d93165c6d4_story.html

  244. Jean Henry
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    Alan– you are a more reprehensible person than I imagined.

    This space is not just absent the voices of marginalized populations; it actively rejects their perspective.

    Alan, you are the embodiment of that problem. Your kind of thinking, which is by no means unique, as you pointed up well enough (WSJ is a great place to locate the true pulse of the left) is reflected by your bro comrades dominating this site.

    I’m a fighter as Demetrius etc love to point up, so I stuck around. But there is no point.

    Mark–
    this blog has a disease of limited bro-scope in its comments. Your perspective at times (though I know you mean well) re-enforces this limitation. Your just absent a big chunk of the local community here. I don’t mind representing a token opposing viewpoint, but it gets tiring to be so isolated and mostly to be so relentlessly degraded for saying things your audience finds politically inconvenient. The fact that some give validity to the SJW moniker– derived from the alt-right– should give you pause.

    I feel confident that you are losing a lot of other perspectives, because why should they bother lending their voice. They will certainly not be respected. As we’ve seen here over the election, and has been shown in confirmation bias studies. the presence of information that counters an ideologue’s narrative bias only deepens that bias. There’s no point. It’s truly disheartening given the current state of affairs that this space could be part of the problem.

    So I am stepping away again. To make room for other voices. I hope it doesn;t continue to be these guys. Maybe you need to bring in some guest bloggers from different backgrounds to disrupt the paradigm here a bit. I’m sure with your imprimatur, they commenters might be more receptive.

    People are being assaulted on the streets. And while every human feels ‘bad’ about that and very few actually would participate in it, there are a whole lot of people tacitly allowing it by denying the scope or relevancy of the problem. Saying institutional racism is not unique from the problem of income inequality is a form of denial. There are a lot of people here who spin a narrative of labor and the Democratic party’s past that is half-baked and leaves out the messy parts. Right now is not the time to ignore those messy parts, because they are mostly about the marginalization of people of color, the disabled, LGBTQ people, Muslims, Latinos, and immigrants. The people who did not vote for Trump. The people who are the hope for our future. The real hope for progressive change.

    The ones who deserve a turn at the mic now.

    Because your friends here are just posturing and lecturing. They aren’t doing shit. Myself included. Time to get to work.

  245. Demetrius
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    @ Jean

    For weeks now, you’ve essentially dominated multiple discussion threads on this blog.

    Now, you have the nerve to criticize our host for not providing a welcoming and diverse enough platform for views like yours … before leaving (once again) in a huff?!

    Unbelievable …

  246. Demetrius
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    My last comment today, I promise:

    Frank Bruni (NYT): The Democrats Screwed Up

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/opinion/the-democrats-screwed-up.html

  247. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 3:58 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “We are in crisis. And the issue is White Supremacy. And you want to talk about the pain of the working class.”

    We are in crisis. And the issue is the destruction of civil society by neoliberalism, outrageous inequality and class stratification, the maintenance of a grossly oversized military and global empire, and generally the long crescendo of capitalism’s contradictions and unsustainability. And you want to talk — and frame everything in terms of — identity politics, and people like you have done so for decades, and it has deflected attention away from the class and military/empire issues at the core of the crisis. This resulted in a disastrous shift of all political discourse to the right, and consequently a substantive policy movement sharply to the right, resulting in mass suffering not only domestically, but even more so abroad. Perhaps it is time for you to face the failure of your political ideas.

  248. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Jean is right that what is happening here is men are getting upset about women who are acting a bit atypical for women and asserting their voices. It is also true that there is not a lot of diversity in the comments on this blog but I don’t blame Mark for that.

  249. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “I don’t mind representing a token opposing viewpoint, but it gets tiring to be so isolated and mostly to be so relentlessly degraded…” [blah blah blah]

    Let’s all shed multiple, rainbow-colored and trans-friendly tears for poor, oppressed Jean, who tirelessly represents opposing viewpoints in the face of terrible vicious (read: stiff, intellectually rigorous) opposition.

    Jean: “I feel confident that you are losing a lot of other perspectives, because why should they bother lending their voice. They will certainly not be respected.”

    If they can’t stand the heat, they should stay out of the discussion forum. This here communicative reality thing is rough and tumble, and toes get stepped on all the time. Mine included. It stings now and then. Deal with it. Best: develop a sense of humor.

    Jean: “the presence of information that counters an ideologue’s narrative bias only deepens that bias.”

    Yes, we’ve seen you display that behavior repeatedly. Your bias only deepens when you encounter stiff resistance.

    Jean: “So I am stepping away again.”

    Yet another melodramatic departure. We’ve seen this before, more than once, right? “I’m leaving now… don’t beg me to stay… I’ve made up my mind…”. Shades of histrionic personality disorder.

  250. Pocket Beave
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Alan, it may be just “identity politics” to you but for Jean and other women and minorities it’s a matter of basic rights and personal safety. To them, economic or other issues can never be higher priority than policies that can be a matter of life and death!

  251. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    Lynne: “what is happening here is men are getting upset about women who are … asserting their voices.”

    Seems to me that what is happening here is one woman (Jean) is getting upset about men who are asserting their voices, i.e. voicing very strong, point-blank disagreement with her most basic tenets. When faced with this, Jean decides to walk out — in faux dramatic fashion. Can’t handle it? I guess not.

    I’m fine with women asserting their voices. That does not mean that I have to agree with them, does it? Sometimes, I disagree with them very very strongly. For example, I think that the obsession with identity politics (as displayed by you and Jean, and you represent millions of others) has had a disastrously harmful effect on this country and the world. Racism and sexism (and etc.) are serious problems, and I support the struggle against specific instantiations of them, but in the big picture they are secondary and largely-derivative problems. When you put them in position as the primary problems, you set up a fraudulent scheme that cannot result in authentic society-wide progress toward justice and liberation. And that is where we are at. The fraudulent scheme HAS been so elevated, for decades, and now we are enduring the miserable fallout. See links above to wsws.org. Actually read them.

  252. alan2102
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

    Pocket Beave: see what I just wrote to Lynne, immediately above. I support anti-racist/anti-sexist/etc. action with respect to specific instances, i.e. specific, correctable grievances or insults. Think: civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. Nevertheless, even this must be subordinate to the big class struggle. You speak of “basic rights and personal safety”, and “matters of life and death”. Hey, that’s MY line! Capitalism has killed (not even to mention the maimed and crippled) scores of millions in just the last decade, friend. If you did not know this, then proceed with haste to inform yourself. And oh by the way, most of those millions were black and brown people, and most of them were women and children. Do they count? Are you concerned about them? What’s your plan for stopping this genocide?

  253. Posted November 11, 2016 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

    Candace Pruitt is a sound artist and student at Eastern Michigan University. Listen to “Whitemare,” and consider what you are doing in Ypsilanti proper / Washtenaw County to protect / uplift the existing community.

  254. Posted November 11, 2016 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Pardon the HTML Coding Error ^ // Update:

    Candace Pruitt is a sound artist and student at Eastern Michigan University. Listen to “Whitemare” and consider what you are doing in Ypsilanti proper / Washtenaw County to protect / uplift the existing community.

  255. Lynne
    Posted November 11, 2016 at 8:36 pm | Permalink

    Thank you, D’Real. That was moving.

  256. alan2102
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Clinton got SEVEN MILLION fewer votes than Obama got in 2012:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as-HI6bueqY

    Massive apathy (or worse), and for good reason.

    Jean: I welcome your alternative explanation for the drop of 7 million. Maybe it was sexism. Seven million liberal Democrats who voted for a black man a few years ago suddenly all had an attack of sexism.

  257. Lynne
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 1:13 am | Permalink

    Or they have always been more sexist than they are racist? I mean, if one has a problem with powerful women, that wouldn’t stop one from voting for Obama now would it?

  258. alan2102
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 10:25 am | Permalink

    Sexism did not keep her from winning the senate race in NY by a huge margin. What happened? Did everyone in NY have a sudden attack of non-sexism, just for election day?

  259. Bob
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 10:29 am | Permalink

    I can’t believe that four days later, you are still arguing this election result was about sexism. It was about her record and her position as a pillar of the very establishment that voters and non voters rejected. Her genitalia had little to do with it.

  260. Lynne
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    Man, you guys crack me up with your insistence that this wasn’t about sexism and/or racism. I get it that you can’t accept that someone might have needs that are more important than those of white men but geez o peets.

    I mean really?! Alan, did you look at the presidential election results in NY state? Did Clinton not win there? Do you think that might mean that the electorate in New York might like her as they did when they voted for her for senate? Your “evidence” that this wasn’t sexist is so thin that your bias is transparent.

    All I know is that all of this whining about how Clinton lost because she didn’t take the concerns of the white working class seriously enough is bullshit in the sense that she did take such concerns seriously and offered up a better plan. Sure the anti-establishment stuff is part of it but only a small part. Enough that I feel a little bit of schadenfreude knowing that everyone who didn’t vote for Clinton because they wanted the establishment out of Washington and and end to corruption were conned and they are going to get more establishment most likely and way more corruption almost certainly. But then I remember that I will too and I get angry again.

    Besides, the idea that Bernie Sanders with his long record in congress is not part of the establishment is laughable. He is a good guy. He is honest. He wants to be in government for the right reasons. (all things which are true about Clinton except for the guy part) But he is very much a part of the established Washington elite.

  261. Somebody
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    But speaking pragmatically, if it was sexism that kept her out does that mean we shouldn’t put up a woman as the nominee? The she would be destined to lose against a man? Or will the sexism not be as big an issue in four years?

    Warren is basically the only leader left in the party who I can see going up against Trump next time. Sanders won’t run and the Democratic bench is pretty paltry.

  262. Lynne
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Don’t worry liberal white men, us “nasty women” are going to keep getting strong and we will smash your patriarchy. And as Samantha Bee says, us white women have some karma to work off.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1SaD-gSZO4&feature=share&list=PLur87nTwD0BtIreRwNBMG63ZCc4EXo9F9

    Here is the thing. Those rural working class folks who way of live is changing? That isn’t going to stop. That demographic keeps getting older and older too. They are going to die off. As young people from those areas move away and get exposed to people who are different than themselves, they will be more open to people who are different from themselves being in power. Every time another woman rises and occupies a high status office or position, she becomes a role model for younger women coming up. There have been HUGE changes in sexism in my life time and we are, as a nation, even in rural areas headed in the right direction on that. We just haven’t gotten far enough that sexism wasn’t one of the biggest factors in this election. We will though. Then we can talk about if white men aren’t being treated fairly by our electoral system.

  263. Demetrius
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    @ Lynne

    Nearly everyone here is agreeing that gender and race were significant issues in this campaign. But again, many of us don’t believe they were the main reasons for Trump’s victory.

    OF COURSE gender, race, and ethnicity were important issues in this campaign … but the notable shift of white (and many non-white) working- and lower-middle-class voters away from the Democrats (and toward) Trump – especially in the industrial Midwest – was clearly a much bigger factor.

    You say: “All I know is that all of this whining about how Clinton lost because she didn’t take the concerns of the white working class seriously enough is bullshit in the sense that she did take such concerns seriously and offered up a better plan.”

    But here’s the thing – whether she did or didn’t take these concerns seriously, or whether she did or didn’t have a better plan – none of that really matters now because, in the end, many of these voters simply didn’t BELIEVE her and/or didn’t TRUST her.

    We all know that Trump is an absolute charlatan and that ultimately, he does not give a f*ck about the needs of ordinary people. Nevertheless, he was was very effective in speaking to their issues, and able to convince many of them that he was on their side.

    I can’t help thinking about how, during the late Spring and early Summer, I kept getting repeated, breathless e-mails from the DNC bragging about how Hillary was holding one exclusive campaign event after another … with Hollywood royalty, Wall Street tycoons, pop celebrities, the Hamptons jet-set, etc. Meanwhile … Trump was hosting aircraft hangers overflowing with ordinary Americans … and consistently spoke out about how American workers were losing their jobs to foreign competition.

    In retrospect, I really don’t understand why so many people are now so surprised by Tuesday’s outcome.

    Too little, too late, of course … but here’s just one interesting example:

    NYT: Trump Voters Eager for Return of Jobs

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/business/economy/can-trump-save-their-jobs-theyre-counting-on-it.html

  264. Somebody
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    I hope you’re right. I think you are. But I was wrong about where we are now. Again it’s that bubble. In my world most of the women I know are a lot more accomplished than the men.

    Hopefully the Trump presidency will clearly illustrate the sickness of patriarchy and help us put that garbage behind us.

    Hillary did the best she could and I appreciate her efforts. She gave it her all and I’m sure she’ll continue to work for us. Thanks Secretary Clinton.

  265. Posted November 12, 2016 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    I’m sorry I haven’t terribly engaged in the comments section. I’ve been too busy working on content for the front page, booking the radio show, raising kids, working, and all the other shit that one needs to do to stay alive and keep moving forward. I appreciate the fact that you folks are using the space to talk, though. I really am. It’s like I’ve gone to bed, and all of my dinner party guests have stayed downstairs, talking, all night long.

    As for sexism, and the role it played in the election, can we all just agree that, at some point, it might be in all of our best interests to stop fighting over which factor was the most significant in turning things toward Trump? Might it not be enough to just acknowledge that sexism, racism and the economy all played a role, and work to address all of them? I mean, feel free to continue the debate here. I like that you’re all passionate about it. I just think, at some point, it might be healthy to begin looking forward, and making plans for the future, whatever that might look like… whether it be getting more women of color to run for elected local office, or more men of color to go into teaching, or setting up diversity programs in schools, or encouraging people to join evangelical churches, or whatever it is that we think would help push the needle in the other direction.

    OK, I have to get back to work now.

    I love all of you.

    And, yes, even you, EOS.

  266. Citywatch
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    I advocate for forming the Independent Social Democratic Party (ISDP) to be led initially at least, by Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Jill Stein and Tim Canova. Time to move away from the traditional Democratic Party which is too messed up to fix, and get to work bringing together all of the folks who were ignored in this election, and in my mind that includes women. Argue all you want, but if it doesn’t result in some positive and affirmative action it is just bluster. Besides, what I am proposing has been obvious and unspoken for more than a year now. There it sits, policies, personalities, visibility, respectability, all in place. Time to get moving on it.

  267. Lynne
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    RE: “But here’s the thing – whether she did or didn’t take these concerns seriously, or whether she did or didn’t have a better plan – none of that really matters now because, in the end, many of these voters simply didn’t BELIEVE her and/or didn’t TRUST her.”

    Yeah, but if we don’t address the WHY so many of those voters simply didn’t believe her or trust her, we have no hope of changing anything. And the why in this case, is sexism. Implicit sexism to be sure. The same kind of sexism that causes white liberal men to go on about how this election was lost because the privilege of rural white men was not given enough attention or because the non-white and female members of the party decided they wanted Clinton. Can you not see how patronizing it is for white male liberals to get all smug about how we should have picked the white dude while pretending that sexism isn’t the main reason Bernie *might* have had a better chance. I don’t know. If the problem isn’t sexism as you say, could it be that Bernie’s run which forced the Democrats to adopt the most liberal platform in anyone’s memory not have hurt her among those in the middle? Would Sanders’s far left politics go over better with right wing people for some mysterious reason other than that those who are comfortable with white male supremacy might be more amenable to a message if it is coming from a white man rather than a woman?

    At any rate, yes we do need to be inclusive of everyone and that includes rural uneducated white dudes. I don’t think, however, that we have some obligation to preserve a way of life that denies so many their civil rights. I found this essay to be insightful.

    http://www.rollcall.com/news/opinion/im-a-coastal-elite-from-the-midwest-the-real-bubble-is-rural-america

    I agree with Mark that we need to move forward and frankly for me, that involves addressing the sexism and the racism on the left first. We can’t effectively move forward with egalitarian goals unless we look inward at our own biases. I will look inward at my biases against rural christian straight able-bodied middle class white men and you all can ask yourselves why the most objectively honest candidate in this election had a problem with people believing her or trusting her. Hint: it rhymes with “Regina”

  268. Citywatch
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Move on with two takeaways from Hillay and the election:
    1. The Democratic Party is broken and corrupt;
    2. We actually ARE better together!
    We just need to be joined up in a better, more inclusive, less corrupt way that actually gives more than lip service to the needs of the people who the Democratic Party has traditionally served. But the party?? It’s broke, can’t fix it. American Democratic Socalust Party? Independent Democratic Socialists Party, whatever we call it, let’s get going.

  269. Somebody
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    For Allan:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/listen-liberal-white-guy_us_5824f63ee4b057e23e313f4a

  270. alan2102
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

    Thanks, Somebody, but I did not make it far. The author was just too stupid to justify my time.

    I’ll give you an example. She quotes Thomas Frank:
    “she was exactly the wrong candidate for this angry, populist moment. An insider when the country was screaming for an outsider. A technocrat who offered fine-tuning when the country wanted to take a sledgehammer to the machine.” [end frank quote]

    Then she replies:

    “My first response to that is to roll my eyes as yet another man blames Hillary Clinton for everything.”

    Huh? Frank not only did not blame HRC for “everything”, he did not blame her for ANYTHING. HRC is not to “blame” for being who she is. Frank simply pointed out the reality of who she is vis a vis the prevailing mini-zeitgeist, the spirit of this election year. Where’s the “blame”? There was none.

    She proceeds:
    “Thanks, liberal white guy who lives in Washington. Also, thanks to all you other liberal white guys who live in major metropolitan areas in blue states. Without you reminding us, we might forget that it’s always the woman’s fault.”

    These comments are both stupid and petulant.

    She continues:

    “My second response is to want to ask Mr. Frank if he seriously believes that Trump voters are raging against the machine. That they are expressing some authentic populist anger, rejecting “politics as usual” in favor of some revolutionary, um, something?”

    Answer: yes to the former, depending on what you mean by “authentic”. It was certainly, undeniably anger, and it was roughly characterizable as populist, yes. It was “raging against the machine”, the establishment, yes. “Revolutionary”, no. But certainly an explosion of populistic anti-establishment anger. What is so hard to understand about that? Anyone who cannot see that aspect of what just happened is a damned blind fool.

    Somebody, I could not read much beyond that, because I became too irritated with the author’s stupidity and apparent blindness, and I don’t have endless hours to read bilge. Sorry. Try again.

  271. Lynne
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 4:15 pm | Permalink

    Citywatch, I am not sure that the Democrat Party is hopeless. I am really hoping that the Bernie people will get more involved at a grass roots level. That is my plan and has been since I noticed that no one was running against Debbie Dingell in the primary. Now I like her and happily voted for her and probably would have voted for her if someone were running against her in a primary but that no one was willing to was troubling to me. Heck, I might run against her in 2018 just to give folks something of a choice. (But as markmaynard.com readers already know, I will lose because I am incapable of soothing the fragile white male ego so Dingell need not fear me)

    Ok, that was tl;dr. The short version is that I agree the party is broken but I disagree that it can’t be fixed.

  272. alan2102
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Somebody: sorry if I was rude. I did not mean to be. I was writing in irritation at the author. But, do you see my point? Frank did not blame Hillary. He said she was a technocrat and a fine-tuner, and there’s nothing wrong with that; we need people like that. That is a mild compliment. The problem in Frank’s view is that those qualities (of HRC) were a mis-match with the prevailing mood of the year. Further, it is pretty obvious that Frank is right: they WERE a mis-match, and it is all but impossible to fail to see this mis-match. And how does our author respond? She rolls her eyes and says “yet another man blames Hillary Clinton for everything.” I’m sorry — truly sorry — but that is just plain stupid. And that got my irritation started.

  273. alan2102
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

    Lynne: “Alan, did you look at the presidential election results in NY state? Did Clinton not win there? Do you think that might mean that the electorate in New York might like her as they did when they voted for her for senate?”

    No doubt the people of NY state like HRC. The question is: why are the people of NY state so non-sexist, unlike other states? Why doesn’t rampant and powerful sexism, pervading all of society and relentlessly perverting every mind it touches according to some sources (Lynne, Jean), have the same effect in NY state as it does elsewhere? Is there something in the water, or food, or air, in NY state, that makes people less sexist?

  274. Lynne
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    Yes, actually there is. I could write a dissertation on the why but being in proximity with many different people from many walks of life tends to make a person more open to the worth of those around them. It can lead to tension too but generally there is a correlation between living in an urban area and being liberal. NYC. So there are a LOT of liberals in New York State.

    Well, we all live in our bubbles in the sense that usually people’s social circles are just filled with others who are politically aligned with them. And ideas get passed around in social circles. Left leaning people in this country have generally been exposed more to feminist thought than right leaning people in rural areas have been. And so, they are more likely to be less sexist.

    I am sure there are many other reasons too why certain groups may be less sexist, less racist, and generally more tolerant of others who are different than they are. I have read whole books on the subject.

  275. Lynne
    Posted November 12, 2016 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

    It is also possible that the people in New York State are just as sexist as people in more red states. We know that pretty much all voters will vote for a woman. However, when faced with candidates in mock elections, they will only pick the woman if she is significantly more qualified in experience and/or most closely matches their political ideology. It is possible that is the case with Clinton. She may just be so much the better candidate to them that they chose her. Interestingly, we know that they liked her the most when she was in office and they liked her the least when she was seeking office leading to theories that people may be more uncomfortable with a woman’s ambition of power than with her having the actual power itself. I don’t know, it seems plausible.

  276. Demetrius
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 7:53 am | Permalink

    NYT: Michigan Voters Say Trump Could See Their Problems ‘Right Off the Bat’

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/us/politics/michigan-voters-donald-trump.html

  277. jean henry
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    I have been asked privately to explain my ‘threat’ to EOS. I used antagonistic teen tweet language intentionally, knowing EOS would not be able to ‘read’ it but assuming others here would. Clearly I was mistaken. I wanted EOS to feel for a moment the threat of physical harm that so many feel every day right now because of bigoted belief systems like hers. Since EOS is a pseudonym and no one seems to know who she is, and my name is public, actual threat was non existent. It was not a possibility. Also should she spew her bullshit rhetoric here again, I will not play nice. I will return and rhetorically cut her. Because she is a bitch. Mark can choose to love his enemies but that is always a position of privilege free from risk. (It also solves no problems as it asks nothing of anyone) For others, ideological smug sexist bigots like EOS represent real threat.

    Mark’s passivity in addressing the tone of discourse here means that this, like over 80% of progressive social media, becomes a space dominated by white male voices. He wants to keep the peace– but all that does is preserve the space for those who exhibit bias. It’s clear he can’t really see that bias, but he won’t until more voices enter the discourse. And that won’t happen as long as the bros s dominate. Why should they subject themselves to it. It’s not that he invites white male dominance of this space; it’s just he does nothing at all that make room for other voices here.

    The assumption as always is that being progressive is enough to get your equity badge. But only an integrated space will challenge the implicit bias and limited perspective offered here. And that will not happen if Mark continues to be passive.

    If you look at Black Twitter right now there is a very open discussion of how Bernie’s supporters assume he would have had the support of people of color without ever working for it or trying to understand it. There are also Black sanders supporters weighing in saying he represented their interests better than Hillary. This is just a snippet of the kind of real discourse that is happening elsewhere but won’t happen here until Mark accepts responsibility for the limited scope of this blogs viewpoint and the need to diversify its voices and audience. Until then it contributes to the problem. This blog is a marginalizing force. If you read the above thread that maybe clear. But if you are conflict avoidant it likely will just seem like infighting.

    This blog needs more voices and more discourse. With more voices it actually might become more civil. Currently, It lacks any useful dynamic.

    Fundamentally the readership here appears to view efforts towards racial, sexual orientation and gender justice as ideological. I see them as efforts to secure basic human rights. I see them as non-partisan. Thry are not in anyway rigid or prescribed in perspective but very liberal. Many viewpoints fall under the feminist, LGBTQ and racial justice rubrics– but you need to listen to hear them. One thing is clear, the progressive left is not immune to bias or to tacitly perpetuating bias. The only path forward is integration. And that needs to happen in as many spaces as possible. That is the work to undo Trump and align the working class at last.

  278. Roddy Doyle by Proxy
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 11:02 am | Permalink

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=981968141493&set=a.525439623303.2031157.68200133&type=3&theater

  279. Demetrius
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    @ Jean

    As true journalism continues to decline, Mark is performing a tremendous community service by not only providing an important source of news and information – but also a relatively “neutral” place for people from different backgrounds, and with many different viewpoints, to discuss and argue. Aside from an occasional good-natured prompt from the sidelines, I don’t recall him ever discouraging or censoring anyone’s comments here. Honest question: What could possibly be more open, welcoming, and unbiased than that?

    Sorry … but using this blog to promote your own viewpoints for months on end (as you have done) – then turning around and slamming the host and this platform as being “biased,” “uncivil,” and “lacking any useful dynamic” is simply arrogant and rude beyond words.

    If you feel so strongly about this, what is stopping you from creating your own discussion platform?

  280. alan2102
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    Demetrius: “using this blog to promote your own viewpoints for months on end (as you have done) – then turning around and slamming the host and this platform as being “biased,” “uncivil,” and “lacking any useful dynamic” is simply arrogant and rude beyond words.”

    Arrogant and rude? or just petulant infantile whining?

    Jean: “Fundamentally the readership here appears to view efforts towards racial, sexual orientation and gender justice as ideological. I see them as efforts to secure basic human rights.”

    They are efforts to secure basic human rights, yes, but everything happens within a larger context, and is subordinate to that context. Particularist (racial, sexual, etc.) efforts should never supplant, depose or even slightly interfere with universalist or broad class-based activism — which unfortunately is what neoliberalism and Clintonism/DP-ism etc. (as you champion so fervently) has done.

    ……………………………………………

    “to identify the underprivileged on the basis of any kind of blood imagery [such as race] is at once reactionary and disastrously divisive. It cannot lead to sustained reform. It cannot lead to serious change. It can only lead to catastrophe. It shatters class solidarity (per the Marxist). It promotes partial interests at the expense of the public interest (per the liberal). Most of all it fractures almost any sense of community, however imagined. There must be minimum standards for all the members of this society: a minimum standard of education and opportunity for all our people. We must insist upon universal right, not the cheap option of special preferences, of particularist privilege, of self-indulgent sensitivities. The “culture of dependence” derives not from the Welfare State. Irremediable dependence derives directly and inescapably from our crippling obsessions, from social definitions founded on blood. It is time and past time that we build again. It is time and past time that we have done with the burden of blood.” — Arthur Williamson, PhD; IMAGES OF BLOOD: ETHNIC IDENTITY AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THE LEFT IN EUROPE AND AMERICA, 1972 – 1992 — http://www.drsusanblock.com/blood.htm [ <– wonderful background read on the harm of identity politics –alan2102]

  281. alan2102
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “I want [others] to feel for a moment the threat of physical harm that so many feel every day right now because of bigoted belief systems”.

    Indeed. And also the actuality of physical harm, like being blown to bits or burned alive by bombs dropped by the U.S.-backed Saudis:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/15/us-bombed-yemen-middle-east-conflict

    Jean, of all those people feeling the “threat of physical harm” here in the U.S., are any at risk of being blown to bits or burned alive by bombs?

  282. Lynne
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Wow. You white guys really dont see how fiercely you dominate the space and discussion, do you? Luckily, most woman know that when you start calling us arrogant and rude or try to infantilize us, it is because of your weaknesses, not ours. Jean is right that this is not an integrated space on the internet. White men dominate most conversations here and actively shut try to shut down any criticism of that dominance. Fortunately, not entirely effectively.

    Anyways, Jean, trying to get privileged people to understand how it feels to be marginalized is a futile effort. You can scare an individual but only AS an individual. You can’t duplicate the scope of it. Your microaggression towards EOS exists in isolation from any kind of systemic oppression too when it is the whole package: microaggressions, systemic oppression, and overt hatred, etc. I actually feel bad for cisgendered, able-bodied, straight, middle or upper class, youngish, white men because they have never felt any kind of real systemic oppression so they have a harder time empathizing. This work of building a truly egalitarian society is more difficult for them.

  283. alan2102
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 2:23 pm | Permalink

    Wow. You feminist gals really don’t see how it is so often impossible to take your vague, low-substance hand-waving seriously, do you?

    Jean writes that “this blog needs more voices and more discourse.” FINE. THAT’S A GOOD IDEA. SO BRING IT ON. Where are the “more voices”? Seriously. Where are they? Can you invite them? Do they even know that this forum exists? Do you want me to help? I will. Give me a list, and I will write polite (VERY POLITE, I PROMISE) emails to each one, cordially inviting them to participate. Seriously. I’ll do it. Let me know how I can help, and I’ll do it. I would love more diversity of views on here.

    Why don’t you and Jean stop complaining about this not being an “integrated space on the internet”, and instead make constructive suggestions as to how to make it integrated, and help to implement those suggestions, along with me and perhaps others. How should we go about this?

  284. Loser Larson
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    There are many blogs in the world.

  285. Posted November 13, 2016 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

    Pete has one. It’s good. You could all head over there and fight for a wile. It might be nice to have a change of scenery.

  286. Lynne
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

    No Alan, we are VERY aware of how many men find it impossible to take us seriously and instead will dismiss thoughtful and insightful female voices as being just vague, low substance hand waving.

    One thing you could do to make this space more welcoming to other voices is to recognize that white male dominance is the norm in our culture and is the norm on this blog. In one study by Dale Spencer, men perceive that there is equal participation when women speak 15% of the time and they tend to perceive the conversation as being dominated by women if they are talking 30% of the time.

    I am not aware of any studies on it but I am pretty sure the same is true in terms of white people’s perceptions of how equal their conversations with people of color are. I know that in the feminist blogosphere I have seen many women of color complain that the conversation was being dominated by white women and their needs and then have those complaints be dismissed in a very similarly entitled-to-the-dominance manner as you are doing here.

  287. jean henry
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    Yes there are other blogs. I will go there. My point here is made. Obviously Mark is free to do here as he pleases. I simply offered my critique of a fundamental problem. This is not a neutral space. That’s saying Americans don’t have an accent. But beyond that it clearly seems to have progressive political intent. I’m suggesting an all white male blog community is counter productive. That I can jump in for three weeks and cause this much discomfort is not a good sign. The sexist tropes in the resistance were as obvious as an American accent to those prepared to hear. The idea that Lynne and I dominate is Laughable. Anyway, I leave it to you Mark. Good luck. I’ll keep reading.

  288. jean henry
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    One more thing: for the most part the POC I know (who aren’t privileged academics) are not frightened or surprised– or rather they are not more frightened than normal. They are joking about how f’d up we are. It’s not like they walk around with a chip on their shoulder. Or a victim complex. For many immigrants in particular, it’s still better than where they came from. They are tough people. Not sad. I went to go settle up for the taco truck party (we raised $1500 for PP and SOS) and those guys were laughing chanting ‘build that Wall.’ I did not cry over this election. I got to work. This idea of a bunch of people with a victim complex is wrong. There are a whole lot of responses going on among Marginalized populations. There’s not one. Just one of many reasons why more voices are needed here.

  289. jean henry
    Posted November 13, 2016 at 9:11 pm | Permalink

    http://bust.com/feminism/18550-white-working-class.html

  290. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

    Lynne: “many men find it impossible to take us seriously and instead will dismiss thoughtful and insightful female voices as being just vague, low substance hand waving.”

    I take you seriously when you make good, rational, well-argued posts, as you have on many occasions. I usually agree with you. But when you don’t — when you are guilty of, for example, vague, low-substance hand-waving — then I will call you out for it. Is that wrong?

    For the record, I have seen a great deal of low-substance hand-waving on the part of white men, and I call it out when they do it, too.

    Lynne: “men perceive that there is equal participation when women speak 15% of the time…”

    I do not perceive that there is equal participation. How can we achieve equal participation? I asked you, sincerely, for suggestions, and indeed even for direct ORDERS which (if reasonable) I will obey, in order to achieve more diversity here. I’m still waiting for a reply. You complain about the lack of diversity and the dominance of white males. OK. Let’s change it. How do we begin? Please give suggestions at least. Let’s do something positive, OK?

  291. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    Jean: “an all white male blog community is counter productive…. [there are] many reasons why more voices are needed here.”

    OK, Jean, let’s hear it: how to get more voices in here? I’m listening, awaiting your reply.

  292. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    “Is Donald Trump the Anti-Christ?

    Is Donald J. Trump the long-prophesied Beast of Revelation? According to the Bible, the Antichrist will be a charismatic celebrity, a “big talker” and a “smooth talker.” He will convince people that he alone has the solution to every problem. He will claim to be a dealmaker and a master negotiator. He will claim to know how to defend Israel and to create lasting peace in the Middle East. He will be an intimidator and a militant lover of power. He will exalt and magnify himself and claim to be the “only Savior.” He will deceive the masses, even the very elect. Sound like anyone you know? The number 666 is a major sign of the Antichrist. As revealed and explained on this page, the number 666 turns up over and over again in regard to Donald Trump and his family, in truly startling and astounding ways.

    Even if Trump is not THE ANTICHRIST, according to the Bible, he may be one of many antichrists: “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)

    This guy [Trump] is dangerously unhinged. And, for all the things people have said about me over the years, I should be able to spot Dangerously Unhinged.―Glenn Beck

    Did American Christians just elect the Antichrist president, putting him in charge of the American government, economy, military and nuclear codes?

    One attribute of the Antichrist is that he is a liar. According to fact checkers like Politifact, very little that Trump says is actually true. For instance, he said that Hillary Clinton would welcome “650 million” new immigrants to the United States “in one week” and thereby “triple the size of our country.” That is not only a wild lie, but it’s physically impossible. It would take many years to import 650 million people, and we would have to build YUGE new cities to hold them all. Lies can be used to create fear, because fear sells. It’s no wonder that Trump has been called a fear monger and a demagogue by prominent members of his own party. But now American Christians have elected him president … Have the very elect been deceived, just as the ancient prophets foretold?

  293. Lynne
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

    Re: I asked you, sincerely, for suggestions, and indeed even for direct ORDERS which (if reasonable) I will obey, in order to achieve more diversity here.

    You have to allow people the space to speak and you also have to consider that when you decide not to take what someone is saying seriously because you think they have a bad argument, it is entirely possible that it is your own bias that is leading to that conclusion. i.e. you may conclude that the woman speaking is an idiot not because she is one or because she is making a bad argument but because she is challenging some core belief that you might not even realize consciously that you have. So you know, try to be a little less of a dick with your disagreement.

    White dudes do this all of the time in conversations with women. They dominate conversations. They have been socialized to always jump in and give their all. When a woman talks about how sexism is impacting her and then tries to address how the men around her are participating in the sexism, even in small implicit ways, it makes men uncomfortable and then it is common to make the whole conversation about their feelings. I could go on but mostly I have to say that even though I know plenty of women and minorities, I wouldn’t really ever want to invite them to this space because it is sooooo dominated by white men.

    The first step towards creating an online space is to learn how to be an ally and in the case of sexism, this means learning to listen to people’s lived experiences and emotions about things because those things really are important. Objective data is too of course but right now, one thing you could do to help is to learn to listen better and perhaps question your reaction. If someone says something you think is stupid, is it because it actually is stupid or is it because it is hitting up against your confirmation bias?

    I know it is possible to change. Know how I know? Because I was just like you in many conversations with women of color about white feminism vs black feminism. I was not at all open to hearing about how my words could be harmful because of course I never intended them to be. It took me years of getting the message that I needed to shut up and listen before I did but I can assure you that I learned someone once I did. The things you say about sexism and how you speak to women on this blog seriously reminds me of myself and the way I was speaking to black women at that time about racism in the feminist community. It is kind of eerie anyways. I remember feeling angry and thinking that their arguments were completely stupid etc. And later on I felt a little ashamed at how obnoxious I was being.

  294. Bob
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 6:59 pm | Permalink

    Paste has a great piece today on Hillary’s shortcomings. Pretty much the things many of us argued about her all year. President Obama’s criticism today of her work ethic is pretry harsh. The candidate really blew it. Gender is irrelevant.

  295. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 9:42 pm | Permalink

    Bob: what is “paste”?

  296. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Lynne: “I wouldn’t really ever want to invite them to this space because it is sooooo dominated by white men.”

    So, this space is dominated by white men, and nothing can be done about it; you don’t even want to invite others. Is that correct? That is, you and Jean complain (and complain, and complain) about domination by white men, but when it comes down to it — when one of the white men at issue volunteers to do pretty much ANYTHING to help change this — you clam up, saying nothing can be done. Correct?

    Lynne: “The first step towards creating an online space is to learn how to be an ally and in the case of sexism, this means learning to listen to people’s lived experiences and emotions about things because those things really are important. Objective data is too of course”

    Objective data is very important, and much more important than lived experiences and emotions when we are talking about society-wide issues. I don’t have time for a lot of piecemeal lived experiences and emotions except for sharing same with a few intimate friends. That is the stuff of intimate friendships, but it has little place in a discussion of broad political and economic issues. On the other hand, if you have studies (real data) regarding lived experiences and emotions across large randomly-sampled populations, that’s different. That’s something worthy of bringing up and discussing in a forum like this. But my personal lived experiences and emotions? Gads. I would not bore you, nor would I presume that such crap had any value as a contribution to a discussion like this. And I would hope others see it the same way. If you want a lived-experience-and-emotions-sharing experience, join a therapy or encounter group, or a 12-step program, or something like that. Or else cultivate more intimate friendships, where such stuff is the bread and butter. Sharing personal experiences and feelings is a wonderful thing to do with friends, but it is not what a discussion forum like this is about.

    Lynne: “If someone says something you think is stupid, is it because it actually is stupid or is it because it is hitting up against your confirmation bias?”

    That’s my business, and none of yours. Thanks for your thoughts, but you are not my therapist.

  297. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

    H A Goodman:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiTjQC3vy8g
    ELECTION BREAKING NEWS: President Obama Tells Americans To Stop Protesting and Accept Donald Trump

  298. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/11/10/pers-n10.html
    Race, class and the election of Trump
    10 November 2016

  299. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Hillary Clinton wore a $12,495 Armani jacket during a speech about inequality:
    http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/06/hillary-clinton-wore-an-armani-jacket-during-a-speech-about-inequality.html

    Her concern for the underprivileged and disenfranchised is truly touching.

  300. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

    Who cares? The election is over.

    Now it is Trump Nation.

    Stop wasting your time with Clinton. It’s time to figure out ways to hammer at Trump and everyone who voted for him for the next four years.

  301. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Who cares? I wear a $200 pair of shoes, a $150 jacket, a pair of pants that cost me $30, a phone that cost me $100 and a $3000 laptop to villages where people only make about $300 a year. So basically, I’m packing more than 10 years worth of income for these people.

    Who gives a fuck? Should I go and get some shitty used clothes from the hawkers on the street to make some spectacle over how “concerned” I am? Seriously. Who. the fuck. cares.

    Besides, the election is over.

    Now it is Trump Nation.

    Stop wasting your time with Clinton. It’s time to figure out ways to hammer at Trump and everyone who voted for him for the next four years.

  302. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    Racism of the white working class?

    snippet from a comment:
    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/11/10/pers-n10.html
    “As to the working class being inordinately racist, this is the same slander constantly touted by bourgeois liberals. The US working class is not a monolithic block of bigots and racists. In fact, the US working class is far, far more racially integrated than the bourgeois. There are far more mixed families/mixed marriages among the American proletariat than among the American bourgeois or petit bourgeois. An America proletarian is far more likely to work in an integrated workplace and use integrated public transportation than the insulated American bourgeois. The children of the working class are likely to spend more time in classrooms which are more integrated. As its been pointed out, the working class enclaves in Michigan and Pennsylvania who put Trump over this election, elected Barak Obama, twice.”

  303. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:07 pm | Permalink

    Whew. Glad we don’t have to worry about that anymore.

  304. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:14 pm | Permalink

    Peter: “Should I go and get some shitty used clothes from the hawkers on the street to make some spectacle over how “concerned” I am?”

    No, not to “make a spectacle”, but rather to be a decent human being. It has nothing to do with what other people think. It has to do with being a decent human being. And btw it does not have to be “shitty” used clothes. PERFECTLY GOOD used clothes… at value world, salvation army, goodwill. Also, no need for $3000 computers. $300 ones work just fine. And so forth. Just be a decent human being, that’s all.

    Peter: “Stop wasting your time with Clinton.”

    Well, yes, if there were clear signs that the cancer of Obamaism/Clintonism was dealt a well-deserved DEATH blow by what just happened. It was dealt a blow, but it remains to be seen whether or not it was a death blow. Hopefully it was, but we cannot be sure. Capitalism, and its turbo-charged neoliberalism variant, is highly resilient, and I would not be surprised if the left wing of neoliberalism — roughly, in the U.S., Clintonism — still survives, albeit temporarily badly wounded. We’ll see.

    The left wing of neoliberalism was dealt a serious blow, which is a great victory for this country and for the whole world, but unfortunately it was at the cost of the installation as POTUS of an utterly unqualified, bloviating narcissistic asshole, whose policies will more than likely foster a still-worse right-wing neoliberalism. But it is too early to say. It remains to be seen. I’m skeptical, but open.

    It could have been otherwise, of course. We could have had Bernie, who would have won easily. We could have had a perfectly-decent OECD-style social democratic U.S.A. — imperfect of course, but much better than what we’re now about to get — but it was not to be. A corrupt and stupid DNC, and legions of moronic brainwashed Hillary-bots, denied us that possibility.

  305. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Peter: “Whew. Glad we don’t have to worry about that anymore.”

    Your careful, intellectually-rigorous rebuttals are greatly appreciated.

  306. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:15 pm | Permalink

    Whenever I see someone use the terms “petit bourgeois” or “proletariat” I tend to think that the writer is approximately 16, either in body or mind.

  307. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    I never pretended to be anything more than a worthless moron.

    Nothing I say is worthwhile.

  308. Jcp2
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

    Comrade Alan,

    You claim to be operating at a higher level than most, yet you couldn’t figure out that SoundCloud (cloud is a giveaway) was a streaming service for audio content, thus freeing your computer or other device from having to use precious memory to store the files. Newsflash: 400 Mb is nothing now. Technology has moved on. 2 Gb flash drives are less than $5 each, including a custom logo. You claim to be an excellent independent researcher, using the internet as an alternative to mainstream media, yet you couldn’t figure out that paste referred to paste magazine (Google paste Hillary Clinton). You claim to want to effect positive change, yet you are dismissive of anecdote and personal story when that is what really effects real change. Not statistics and policy. That merely informs what story can be told. Any substantial experience in any large organization will show that to be true. That’s why we have the term office politics.

    If anecdotes and personal stories bore you to death, then why are you even here? Did you even read what this blog is about and why Mark puts up with us? (Hint: it’s the About tab in the header). What is MarkMaynard.com but a place where Mark shares his personal anecdotes and experiences in a very public fashion, inviting us in to his life in a limited manner? On occasion he shares stories and thoughts of others, or invites others to share themselves. From this he has developed a very unique and interesting radio program, with interesting guests and music. There are no rules as to what this comment section is about, what is appropriate, or what is inappropriate. Mark can intervene whenever and however he sees fit. Some of us know each other in real life, most of us are pseudo anonymous online acquaintances. Only a few are bold enough to use real names. I know two of them personally IRL myself, and I respect their comments even more because they are willing to stand openly behind what they post. Peter and Mark are long time friends, estranged by distance and circumstance. Jean and Mark have worked together in the past on similar interests, and one of the organizations that Mark was on the board for has granted one of Jean’s organizations funding to work with small businesses in Detroit. I don’t know the other open posters personally, but give their comments equal consideration. The rest of us, including myself (a parent of one of Mark’s daughter’s former school friends) are just possibly interesting randoms.

  309. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:43 pm | Permalink

    “You claim to be operating at a higher level than most, yet you couldn’t figure out that SoundCloud (cloud is a giveaway) was a streaming service for audio content, thus freeing your computer or other device from having to use precious memory to store the files. Newsflash: 400 Mb is nothing now. Technology has moved on. 2 Gb flash drives are less than $5 each, including a custom logo. You claim to be an excellent independent researcher, using the internet as an alternative to mainstream media, yet you couldn’t figure out that paste referred to paste magazine (Google paste Hillary Clinton).”

    Alan might still be running XP on a Pentium I to fight the man.

  310. alan2102
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

    Peter: “Whenever I see som eone use the terms “petit bourgeois” or “proletariat” I tend to think that the writer is approximately 16, either in body or mind.”

    So, the fundaments of a vast school of sociological analysis, embraced by armies of scholars much smarter than you, indicate that the writer is immature? Well all righty then!

  311. Loser Larson
    Posted November 14, 2016 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

    “So, the fundaments of a vast school of sociological analysis, embraced by armies of scholars much smarter than you, indicate that the writer is immature?”

    Does being a Marxist make one “smart?” I fail to see how.

    Alan’s computer looks like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmRfT5FyGGU

  312. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:01 am | Permalink

    jcp: “You claim to be operating at a higher level than most”

    Why do you say that? I never made such a claim, as you well know.

    jcp: ” you couldn’t figure out that SoundCloud (cloud is a giveaway) was a streaming service for audio content, thus freeing your computer or other device from having to use precious memory to store the files.”

    I was told that “soundcloud” had the back episodes. I googled “soundcloud” and went to the site. I searched for mark’s sat sixpack or whatever it was called. I got a long long list of hits. It was too much work to find the one episode I wanted. I also tried searching a few other ways, but no luck. No big deal, but I did want to hear that one episode.

    jcp: “Newsflash: 400 Mb is nothing now. Technology has moved on. 2 Gb flash drive…” blah blah

    The cost of storage is not the point. Every time I install some huge new package, and 400MB IS HUGE, it gums up my system in some way. Sometimes in difficult-to-diagnose ways. Who needs it? MP3s work fine. I don’t need apple’s proprietary bullshit. EVERYONE wants me to install their gazzillion-MB software package. Fuck them. If I did that, I would have to spend hours extra every month on system maintenance and cleanup, OS re-installs as necessary, etc.

    jcp: “You claim to be an excellent independent researcher”

    Why do you say that? I’ve never made such a claim. But while we’re on the subject: yes, I’m fairly good. Not excellent, but fairly good. Better than the average bear.

    jcp: “you couldn’t figure out that paste referred to paste magazine”

    I asked for a simple, three-word (or whatever) clarification. What is the big fucking deal about that? I had not heard of paste mag.

    jcp: “You claim to want to effect positive change”

    Why do you say that? I never made such a claim.

    jcp: “you are dismissive of anecdote and personal story when that is what really effects real change. Not statistics and policy. That merely informs what story can be told.”

    Interesting point. I partially agree. It is a big discussion. But, to get to specifics quickly,
    what you say does not speak to what Lynne was talking about, which is what I was responding to.

    jcp: “If anecdotes and personal stories bore you to death, then why are you even here?”

    To discuss broad issues. And there HAS been some of that, which is good.

  313. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:02 am | Permalink

    Peter: “Does being a Marxist make one “smart?””

    Of course not. But then, as you well know, that assertion was never on the table, so why you bring it up is a mystery. NOT.

  314. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    Alan respects authority.

    Most academics are simply people who know how to write and promote themselves, and don’t necessarily have any good insights into anything at all.

    All academics know this.

    As for Marxists, there are many academics who simply fit their work into a Marxist mold because that’s what sells on campus, and not necessarily because it works. Simply using the ideological keywords is a means to an end (employment).

    It is worth noting that Marxism has fallen out of vogue in many disciplines, though ideology continues to play its part in steering academics, to its detriment, I would argue.

    But that’s irrelevant.

    The real issue is Alan’s computer, which must take more than 10 minutes to start. Is he on dial up?

    Maybe he is still using those free AOL disks.

  315. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:15 am | Permalink

    Alan’s computer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3ApDgL7DFY

  316. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:26 am | Permalink

    “It was too much work to find the one episode I wanted.”

    lol

  317. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Peter: “Most academics are simply people who know how to write and promote themselves, and don’t necessarily have any good insights into anything at all.”

    That does indeed describe many academics, not least you. You seem to have little or no real contribution to make to this or any conversation, I’ve noticed — and that is after patiently reading several hundred of your posts. You’re narrow, prejudicial, ignorant, and something of a dullard. Sorry to say. “Loser Larson” seems to be a fairly accurate handle, and I give you props for honesty.

    As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, the value of academics is not so much their insights (good, poor, or non-existent), but their data gathering and presentation, and to an extent their analysis of the data. Academics are very good at observing and counting things. And that is a valuable contribution.

    Peter: “there are many academics who simply fit their work into a Marxist mold because that’s what sells on campus”

    No doubt. And yet, said “many academics” (a handful of opportunistic assholes) does not come close to representing a century and a half of scholarly and intellectual work. But then, with your anti-intellectualism and narrow mindset, you don’t give a shit about the truth of the matter, it would seem.

  318. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:30 am | Permalink

    Alan’s computer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXyVLTNdPUc

  319. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    I am not an academic, first. I don’t write. I don’t publish. I don’t present. I provide no new ideas at all. I am merely a parasite.

    Second, there have been many ideas which have fallen out of favor, despite being accepted for centuries, and even millennia. How much work was done or for how long is completely irrelevant.

    Alan respects authority.

  320. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:37 am | Permalink

    Peter: go to soundcloud and try to find a specific sat sixpack episode. Have fun!

  321. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:40 am | Permalink

    I listen to the show on Soundcloud. It is never hard. They are numbered even.

  322. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    Peter: “I am not an academic”

    Yes you are.

    Peter: “there have been many ideas which have fallen out of favor”

    Yes, of course. Irrelevant. It is not about “favor”.

  323. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:41 am | Permalink

    If the show is not there, it likely has not yet been uploaded.

    Shocking, I know.

  324. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    “Peter: “I am not an academic”
    Yes you are.”

    No, I am not.

  325. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    If the show has not been uploaded, then why tell me to go to soundcloud to find it, and then make snotty remarks when I can’t find it?

  326. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    PhD’s, working in university contexts, are academics.

  327. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:48 am | Permalink

    Not true at all.

    There are people, for example, in admissions who have PhDs and work in a University.

  328. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:49 am | Permalink

    Peter: “Alan respects authority.”

    I’ve made it very clear, several times, exactly WHAT I respect about “authoritiy”, or rather experts and academics. Perhaps you did not read what I wrote. Or maybe you did not understand what I wrote. Or maybe you deliberately ignored what I wrote. Which was it?

  329. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:51 am | Permalink

    Peter: “There are people, for example, in admissions who have PhDs and work in a University.”

    Oh please. You know what I’m talking about. Yes, sure, exceptions in admissions, and IT, and etc. BFD. You know what I’m talking about.

  330. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:53 am | Permalink

    Alan respects authority.

  331. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    No, I don’t know what you are talking about.

    Clearly, you don’t either.

  332. stupid hick
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:54 am | Permalink

    “Some of us know each other in real life, most of us are pseudo anonymous online acquaintances. Only a few are bold enough to use real names.”

    I don’t use my slave name here because I know everyone here who does. Some of you for 30+ years. I’m not who I used to be, and I don’t want you liberal fools bothering my elderly parents, or trying to make trouble for me at work.

  333. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:59 am | Permalink

    It is a problem for some people. I had to shut down all of my social media accounts because of work.

    I don’t think that Mr. Hick says anything particularly damning, however.

  334. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:00 am | Permalink

    Good old Peter!
    Never a truly intelligent post.
    Never any useful insight.
    Never a stirring or compelling argument.
    Never any good links.
    Never any anything, really.
    Ah well. To bed with me.
    You can’t say I didn’t try!
    Nighty-night, all. [whatever stragglers might possibly be in attendance]

  335. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:04 am | Permalink

    I make no claims to be useful.

    What is “truly intelligent?”
    What is “useful?”
    What is “stirring” or “compelling?”
    What are “good links?”

    Who decides these things? Alan, I suppose.

    I thought the link to the Pentium 1 computer running XP was pretty good.

  336. stupid hick
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    Er, what I meant is I really don’t know anyone here, I don’t know who my parents are, and I haven’t worked for 8 years.

  337. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:08 am | Permalink

    How do you get by?

    I am about to be unemployed and will likely be homeless soon. Weighing out whether to push on or end it now and bypass the unpleasant experience of being spat on in the street.

  338. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    Ah, perhaps you were joking.

    Apologies.

  339. stupid hick
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    Loser, thanks for linking the MDC video, it’s good to know they’re still making music.

  340. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    They were an enjoyable musical act.

  341. stupid hick
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 2:00 am | Permalink

    Damn it, Loser. I will admit this only because I admire you: I was sincere my first post, in the second one I was trying to misdirect because I revealed how long I’ve been part of this “community”, that my parents are still alive, and I have a job where I’m sensitive about my personal opinion being mistaken as representative of my employer. You’re the real deal and you don’t have anything to prove to anyone. Not here. If you decide to return from Africa, you’ll do fine in the US. I would love to be spat upon by a Trump supporter, as long as I could have it on video.

  342. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 3:14 am | Permalink

    Mr. Hick,

    That is kind. The sentiment is appreciated. Thank you.

    Not sure what the hell I’m going to do. Options are limited, but then that’s true for most Americans.

    Limited options wouldn’t make me vote for someone like Trump, though.

  343. Bob
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 6:47 am | Permalink

    Peter, as much as you drive me fucking crazy, I hope it works out for you. If you some lifts, some meals or anything I can do, I’m here for you. Sincerely.

  344. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Alan: I didn’t respond to your faux humble request about how to broaden the array of voices here, and especially about how you in particular could be more receptive to voices that counter your own perspective, because I knew you would do exactly what you did to Lynne– respond defensively. Because that is what you do consistently and because you have made very clear that you are not interested in any perspective but your own.

    I have stated elsewhere what I feel Mark could do to broaden the perspective of this blog. I think the radio show is a good model. His latest post, interviewing tha family of the Latina student in Royal Oak who filmed harassment was a great example. It’s his blog. I offered my critique from frustration and because I knew he would listen. It’s his choice whether or not to do anything about it. My experience with social justice critique (recived and offered) has been that people get angry and resist and some feel shame (not necessary) and then, for the most part, they find some entry point through the critique to make their work better without compromising who they are or what the work is. The work gets better. I’m ok with being the bad guy, the pest. I think it’s useful mostly. It’s not easy or as enjoyable as some may think. “If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.”

    Alan, if you want to know more about how to be embracing of other perspectives, you can start by reading them. You can google ‘diversity and inclusion best practices.’ I mean if you know how to use google.

    Pete– You have a wide circle of friends here. There are abundant jobs to suit your skill set. They pay pretty well. We know you don’t accept help because you are stubborn and willful. But it is here. We would prefer you didn’t die. We are selfish like that. It’s not pity that inspires our offers of generosity. It;s respect. It is all meaningless when one is alone. But you don’t have to be. That’s a choice. Even Bob wants to help.

    Bob– Not to debate, just to counter. This article represents my point of view (to counter your paste link above) on why HRC was the right candidate. you are welcome as wlawys to your own opinion. It’s just not the only one. http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044

  345. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 9:57 am | Permalink

    Bob, that’s cool of you. All good here, though. Thanks.

  346. alan2102
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Jean: “Alan: I didn’t respond to your faux humble request about how to broaden the array of voices here”

    It was sincere, and no, you certainly did not respond, did you? Because if you had responded… er, well… you would have been forced to pony-up some real substance to back up your faux “complaints” about the lack of diversity.

  347. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    In her defense, it would be more interesting if there more more than five people commenting on a regular basis.

  348. Bob
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 11:52 am | Permalink

    Jean. Obviously she was not.

  349. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 11:57 am | Permalink

    Again, it depends on the system. Trump won by the electoral college.

    If there had been no electoral college, Clinton might have won and thus would be called “the right candidate.”

    Regardless, given how close these elections are, it is hard to say what the right candidate is, given that we end up with a coin toss in the end.

  350. Lynne
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    I still think it is funny that Alan asked how to increase diversity but then immediately dismissed my suggestion which was to make the space more welcoming along with specific suggestions for how he might do that. It isn’t untypical though. That is a pretty common white man response. To pretend that they want to be helpful but then, upon learning that what is asked of them is to examine their biases, listen before reacting, value people’s lived experiences, and generally stop insisting on dominance in every conversation.

    The reason I don’t invite my female or minority friends here, Alan, is guys like you. Trust me, every one of them finds themselves regularly in spaces where white men do all they can to dominate the conversation, they don’t need another one. It would be good for YOU and this board if there were more diversity but it wouldn’t be good for marginalized people to have to put up with yet another arrogant sexist white man who refuses to alter his behavior even in the smallest way.

  351. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    Obviously, I can’t speak to peoples’ sensitivities but I am of the opinion that Alan is pretty much the same to everyone.

  352. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    HRC won the popular by more than 2 million votes, much more than many elected presidents. The difference in the election came down to about 180,000 votes in swing states.
    The difference came down to votes in urban places counting less than votes in rural spaces.
    This was by design.
    If I say race has anything to do with it, I will be called divisive.
    I am eating plenty of crow on this election. Just not the crow Bob would like. I greatly miscalculated the vote of white women. Many of us are clearly more interested in a mandate for their bigotry than in our own safety and agency. Stockholm syndrome or something. At any rate Feminists of color were saying white women are biased and undermining of them for years. And we minimized and didn;t listen and now we see they were right. Very very right. We did not want to see how bigoted we were. Now the results are in.

    She was a great candidate. she didn;t meet purity testing on the left, becuase no onw who wields power meets it. Of course anyone in the establishment who is effective will have made compromises that don’t meet their standards. She refused to give simple answers to complex problems. She was a victim of meme messaging which is inherently simplistic and reliant on us/them thinking. She overcame 30 years of sexist right wing assault that was validated by the alt left (because they are fucking idiots) to win the popular vote.

    the left must unify to win. The fucking alt left idiots are rsisting that. I truly hope they start their own party. I want them gone. They ruined this country with their bullshit purity testing and xenophobic protectionism. The parties should divide into globalist capitalist and protectionist racist socialists. I know what side I’ll be on.

    That we can;t unify (still!) over bigotry and the threat of totalitarian creep tells me how far gone the alt left is in it’s denial of anyone’s interests but it;s own ascendency. It’s anti-capitalist agenda is all that matters. Ideologues. fuck them. Make you own workers party. There is a solid and growing population sector of marginalized people and college educated people and lots of people with money and influence under the umbrella of the Democratic Party. It’s inclusive of many viewpoints. The alt left is not. They can go fuck themselves in their own third and eventually 4th and 5th parties. Learn to listen to other viewpoints of fuck off.

    The Democratic party has better choices:
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/interactive-how-to-save-the-democratic-party

  353. Lynne
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Loser, you are right. He is the same to everyone. However, other white men have also had a lifetime of socialization that encourages that kind of in-you-face dominance. There are fewer women and POC who can adopt the style and when they do, they get criticized for it much more than men are.

  354. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    “Obviously, I can’t speak to peoples’ sensitivities but I am of the opinion that Alan is pretty much the same to everyone.”

    That’s true. But people do have different sensitivities. And those sensitivities are often legitimate. As a woman, I can say that any mention of anything having to do with gender equality in this space is met with dismissal out of hand by most of the commenters here. The dismissal follows a patternt hat is very familiar and culturally engrained. Most people want to be happy. Arguing against the cultural current of bias is unpleasant and mostly useless work. It gets better in spaces where more voices are present. Those spaces exist. In those spaces the brotude is diminished and sometimes conversations get somewhere.

    It is hard to argue for paradigm switches in a space that recreates the dominant paradigm.

    This is why equal representation is worth fighting for. Not because women or other marginalized populations want to dominate the conversation or even that we are all of one mind, but because the only way to really get a seat at the table is to have proportional seats at the table. If it’s juts Lynne and I, we get loud and talk to much trying to take up equal space. Then we are accused of being domineering. We need more voices– of all different perspectives. It would make family dinner so much more pleasant. I actually think more voices would make this space less divisive, but then I tend to an abundance mentality rather than a scarcity mentality about equity.

  355. Lynne
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:34 pm | Permalink

    Re: “At any rate Feminists of color were saying white women are biased and undermining of them for years. And we minimized and didn;t listen and now we see they were right. Very very right. We did not want to see how bigoted we were. Now the results are in.

    This is so true. I am guilty of not listening well enough and minimizing how much it was happening for sure. I guess all we can do is to be better going forward.

    One of the reasons why I am going to that Women’s March in DC in January is because I want to surround myself with like minded men and women and just feel how powerful we can be when we are together. I think we can work those white Trump voting women and get them to feel solidarity if we first practice it because it can be infectious.

  356. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    I didn’t say peoples’ sensitivities were illegitimate. I said that I can’t speak to them since they are not mine.

  357. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    There is a way politically to encourage people to be their better selves, and it does not involve pity. It’s not about feeling sorry for people.

    It’s about offering real help (not fantasies) that they can improve their lives without limiting someone else’s chances. without suppressing voices of protest against bigotry.

    I really believe in competition as positive if basic safety and security is assured and equal access to the tools for success is supplied. I think most Americans do. We need to stop fighting over crumbs and encourage each other to be more generous. To not hoard.

    We have a hoarding of privilege and wealth disease in this country– It exists at ALL income strata– Not just among the wealthy. It is not sustainable long term. There will be class wars and race wars. In those situations the state usually wins. Always. The State becomes more tyrannical. Only the mediating practice of democracy prevents that.

    I see hoarding impulses on the right and the left, among the poor and rich. A functional economic system is generous in opportunities. Then everyone does better. Women in the workplace has substantially improved household incomes and security. Men are doing fine. There is room in this economy for everyone to be productive and do well enough.

    I think we all agree on that and all want that. But the owrk is not all on other people.We need to be welcoming of other perspectives– especially those that are under-represented. And we need to be ok with people arguing those perspectives on fair ground. We need to be receptive to critique. That is the work.

  358. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Pete– I think if you stretch a bit you can empathize. You have shown that on occassion you can imagine the circumstances of others. (An unusual skill in this space0 I appreciate that you know the limits of your perspective. But it;s not a wholely limited perspective about women any more than you have a wholely limited view of the circumstances and impediments of poor Kenyans. If you have occupied space with women with an open empathetic nature, you know something of our experience. The idea that because you are a man, you can not speak to issues of gender equity is a bit of a cop out. It’s like pretending to be blind because one has a constricted range of vision.. Men have a lot to gain from gender equity too.

  359. Loser Larson
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    I can, but in this case, I find the person in question to be equal opportunity annoying.

    I’m not saying you are wrong, just saying how it looks to me.

  360. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    You may be right about Alan. And maybe everyone else. The voices here tried to marginalize your perspective as someone who grew up poor. They will marginalize the voices of anyone who does not subscribe to a particular alt left perspective. In the case of advocating for the concerns of women or that gender bias played any role in this campaign at all, Lynne and I got it from all sides– left and right. There (on another thread I think) it was a clear gendered division. It’s fairly defeating to be discounted for reason on revealing an incovenient truth. that;s not gender specific. You have expressed the same frustration. We women, seem to be held to greater account when we lash out. Maybe that’s the limitation of my perspective, but it seems that way to me.

  361. shepherd hick
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 3:36 pm | Permalink

    “Make you own workers party.” I think you liberals would be better off switching your affiliation, en masse, to Republican and, as EOS once put it, “plant seeds and build bridges” over there. Ok, maybe salt their earth and burn their bridges too, when nobody is looking, but be selective. Spend some time on Alt-Right blogs. Many of them are lost, help them find their way.

  362. Jean Henry
    Posted November 15, 2016 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    If people knew they were mostly talking about Evangelical Christians when they talk about wooing the the white working class back to the Dems, I wonder if they would be so keen to bond with them politically. It’s interesting that the left discounts racism but quickly retracts at the idea of other kinds of bias.

    The conservative working class white people I grew up with would rather cut off an arm than vote for a self-proclaimed socialist.

    The Trump victory was not primarily white working class. It was a broad cross section of white people at all income and education levels. Bigotry is not exclusive to the poor and working class white population. The Michael Moore and co argument that Dems lost for ignoring the working class ignores the numbers on Trump’s support. And it allows us to get drawn into classist divisions in our talk of bigotry. Bigotry knows no class or political affiliation. It seems to know a religion though.

    I see less open racism in Ann Arbor, but there is more economic and racial segregation here than in my hometown, which went heavily for Trump. Are we bigots? No. Do we actively threaten communities of color. No, we feel we protect them….

    BUT we participate actively the marginalization of people of color in this city. We’d rather have another park or more amenities than affordable housing or an integrated community. We hate tall buildings but we also resist any affordable housing development on reasons of community character. And no one seems to care if children of color are adequately educated so long as their child’s needs are met.

    And Ypsi and its school system in particular are a victim of that, but I’m not impressed that they would avoid the same fate given a financial turn around.

    So we need to stand up to bigotry but need to clean our own house too. And if you aren;t looking at your own role in this outcome but are only looking externally, then we won’t get anywhere. Why would the alt left want the traditional left to leave the Democratic party establishment they built. Because Sanders made a Don Quixote run at it from the outside? Because he neglected to incorporate the concerns of people of color in his platform or in his campaigning? Just follow that losing model? Remember, you lost??? By like 2 million votes, same as the Donald.

    Would like the Dems to be one white party crying white tears for white people? sounds like a great plan. Good luck with that. I’ll take the shared umbrella that rejects bigotry and ideologues. Thanks.

  363. iRobert
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 11:32 am | Permalink

    Noon exit polls appear to have been manipulated in a number of key swing states, including Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. It was one part of a sophisticated strategy, which also involved misdirection within the Democratic campaign away from tried and true operational means and methods in favor of untested and faulty ones.

    The Republican primary and caucus process was also manipulated through conventional means, in order to ensure Trump would be the nominee. Candidates were pushed and pressured by any means necessary to keep them in the running and sufficiently break up the anti-Trump vote within the Republican party. The Clinton people were told it was being done in order to ensure Hillary’s victory.

    The disruption of exit polling on election day was meant to keep the Dems from mobilizing their critical late hours GOTV operations in the heavily Democratic urban centers, which usually provides a final firewall for them. It’s fair game to disrupt these operations, as they are not protected constitutionally. The Democrats were set up and double-crossed by a subgroup of their most powerful backers.

    I don’t mean to diminish the legitimate vote of Trump supporters, who had plenty good reason to be disillusioned and even angry with stalemate, stagnation and poorly designed liberal policies. However, they may not want to put their cynicism just yet. Trump was put into office for a reason, and it will not be one to their liking. It will instead likely be similar to what we saw in 2000-2001. There are much bigger plans in store here, which require a unprepared administration to proceed smoothly. Within the first several months after Trump’s administration takes office, I expect we will be seeing another “surprise” which will dramatically alter the geopolitical landscape, likely even more than did the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.

  364. Jean Henry
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/trailguide/la-na-trailguide-updates-gop-sen-lindsey-graham-wants-congress-1479254194-htmlstory.html

  365. stupid hick
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    Jean, I get where you’re coming from, and I don’t disagree. I’m just suggesting you liberals might want to consider infiltrating the GOP, as part of a multi-pronged, multi-purpose strategy. To interfere and try to capture it like the Tea Party did.

  366. Jean Henry
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

    I actually know a group that’s forming to create dialogue between HRC supporters and moderate conservatives who are committed to truthful dialogue about the future politically. I admire their interest in truth but don;t feel that demographic is underserved or under-organized. I’m going to watch as a fly on a wall. I already suggested the effort needed to be fully integrated (ie representational racially) in order for me to actively participate– which got me crickets in response. I’m afraid I am too far into social justice (and too low income) to fit neatly into the moderate influencers set, and too pragmatic in my old age to fit neatly into the left. I ask annoying questions of everyone. They all think I’m a scold. I’m ok with that. This country needs a dope slap or two or three. I know I’m not immune to delusion either.

    but, FB algorithms have me pegged as a far left radical so… Just don’t tell Thom.

  367. wobblie
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    iRobert where do you get your info. sounds very plausible

  368. Jean Henry
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    “Democrats [have] won the popular vote in six of the past seven presidential elections, or since 1992. That is unprecedented: No party has won the popular vote six times in seven tries since the formation of the modern party system in 1828.”

    Tell me again how the Democratic party is a mess.

  369. Demetrius
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

    Naomi Klein in NYT: Trump Defeated Clinton, Not Women

    “Here is the biggest problem with elevating sexism to the defining explanation of Mrs. Clinton’s loss: It lets her machine and her failed policies off the hook. It erases the role played by the appetite for endless war and the comfort with market-friendly incremental change, no matter the urgency of the crisis (from climate change to police violence to raging inequality). It erases the disgust over Mrs. Clinton’s coziness with Wall Street and with the wreckage left behind by trade deals that benefited corporations at the expense of workers.

    In this version, it’s all about sexism. And that is the surest way to ensure that the Democratic Party’s disastrous 2016 mistakes will be repeated — only next time, with a man at the top of the ticket.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/16/opinion/trump-defeated-clinton-not-women.html

  370. Lynne
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    Stupid Hick, are you suggesting that liberals in Republican districts band together to run primary candidates in Republican districts? I mean it could work. Most people don’t bother to vote in primaries so a large enough active group could turn out and vote for a RINO for the nomination who would then run against the Democrat. Hmmmmmmmmm Interesting strategy.

  371. stupid hick
    Posted November 16, 2016 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    Lynne, all I’m saying is “Republican” and “Democrat” are just brand names. Everybody self-identifies by picking one. Both parties allow anyone to join. I think most liberals probably join the Democrats because that’s where their liberal friends are, and it’s easier to agree to a liberal platform and pick liberal candidates, when you’re all friendly and all share the same liberal agenda.

    But the real problem is what the Republican party has become. Reasonable conservatives would agree. The GOP has been captured by extremists. It needs liberals, many liberals, to join and help take the party back. It won’t be as comfortable as hanging with all your liberal friends making easy decisions in liberal harmony, but it will be more rewarding.

    Change the Republican party from within, like the Tea Party did. It will be difficult, starting from where you are, but maybe if enough liberals join together you can pull the GOP in the opposite direction. Or at least obstruct the worst proposals.

  372. Jean Henry
    Posted November 17, 2016 at 12:00 am | Permalink

    Maybe a truly independent party makes sense right now. The emphasis could be achieving a workable plurality for common sense solutions.The party mission could be to aim for the democratic ideal of equal representation, the balance of competing interests, and a spirit of cooperation under a big tent party. There would be no ideological agenda. We could let go of all that caged rhetoric. The only agenda would be to give equal consideration to all approaches. The guiding principle would be that a diversity of viewpoints will bring the best results for the common good.

    It’s a nice fantasy for right now. I re-read All the King’s Men for the second time this year, and I became so frustrated with American potential and American modes of corruption and so American failures, that my heart started racing.

    It’s a nice fantasy for right now. I re-read All the King’s Men for the second time this year, and I became so frustrated with American potential and American modes of corruption and so American failures, that my heart started racing.

  373. Loser Larson
    Posted November 17, 2016 at 12:28 am | Permalink

    Interesting thoughts on a complex topic of interest to many.

  374. Loser Larson
    Posted November 17, 2016 at 12:50 am | Permalink

    Check out this pleasant tune

    https://soundcloud.com/peter-larson-1/tony-nyadundo

  375. stupid hick
    Posted November 17, 2016 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

    It’s good, but is “Fine Breeze Takes Away the Night” your original composition? It’s very good.

  376. Loser Larson
    Posted November 17, 2016 at 11:35 pm | Permalink

    Hey, thanks man.

    Yes, that me on the shamisen.

  377. iRobert question
    Posted November 18, 2016 at 10:02 am | Permalink

    iRobert, what do you think of this?

    http://www.palmerreport.com/opinion/youre-not-just-imagining-it-the-hillary-clinton-vs-donald-trump-vote-totals-do-look-rigged/104/

  378. Jean Henry
    Posted November 18, 2016 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/11/18/election-audit-paper-machines-column/93803752/

  379. iRobert
    Posted November 19, 2016 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    iRobert question,

    Yes, the votes were manipulated in Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. But you must also see how stupid everyone is. Even this idiot, Bill Palmer, acts like it’s something new. If he doesn’t know by now the details of key states being rigged in 2000 and 2004, he doesn’t really pay attention.

    Now we get to sit tight and wait for the ‘payoff’ for which all this was done. I’m expecting something at least as significant as what we got last time.

  380. iRobert
    Posted November 19, 2016 at 10:07 am | Permalink

    I posted the following comment to Bill Palmer’s blog:

    “Off of what turnip truck did you just recently fall, Bill? I take it you have not really been paying any attention to election statistics for the past 20 years. Everyone who has, knows several key states were rigged in the 2000 and 2004 presidential general elections as well. There have been court cases which have revealed much of the detail in fact. There have been many dozens more examples during the primary seasons, and in US Senate, House, and state gubernatorial races. You shouldn’t pretend you’ve been paying any attention, because it’s obvious you haven’t. Before you start insulting everyone who HAS been paying attention by labeling them “conspiracy theorists” you should at least do a minimum amount of research on the topic.”

  381. iRobert
    Posted November 19, 2016 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    It’s a nice dream, Jean. But the sort of connections and power it takes to rig four major states in a presidential election, is more than sufficient to rig any attempt to audit the results. We are better off now just putting our energy into bracing ourselves for the ‘payoff’ they’re setting up. I imagine it’s going to be pretty unpleasant.

  382. Jean Henry
    Posted November 19, 2016 at 11:31 am | Permalink

    I see you’ve been reading your Greg Palast. Every election ever was rife with voter fraud according to the guy. The same people that defrauded the primary to put up HRC also defeated her to give Trump the win. Palast takes a kernal of truth and runs it all the way home to his chosen goal. He has a lot of blame in the real outcome.

    I support election audits, not because I think there was fraud so much as because so many others do. It’s just what we should be doing. It seems like an easy bi-partisan step to take.

    The FBI verified this past summer that the Russians hacked into a bunch of state voter rolls. I’m more concerned about the multiple signs of Russian state influence in our governance generally than the idea that the DNC would mess things up. Bannon cited Lenin– He said he wants to overthrow the state. The Barbarians are behind the gate. Or maybe it’s a Trojan horse. I’m just still not sure who is in it.

  383. iRobert
    Posted November 28, 2016 at 6:11 pm | Permalink

    Jean, it’s pretty well documented that 2000 and 2004 presidential general elections were rigged, most effectively by software patches installed in machines in high democratic performing precincts, but also by many other means as well. I followed the press coverage and court cases over the many years subsequent.

    Illegal voter roll purges, various voter suppression actions, and many other methods have been common throughout history. However, since the late 1990s, electronic vote rigging has made it easy to dramatically manipulate results, far beyond what was possible before. Forensic accounting of many key primaries, caucuses, and general elections has revealed many flipped final results over the past 20 years.

    I now pray for Trump, and hope he understands he is being set up. There’s only one reason to put a half-wit in the Oval Office, and that is to essentially neutralize the executive branch so that it doesn’t get in the way of plans. If there is anything that can be done to soften the damage, I hope he can do it.

  384. iRobert
    Posted November 29, 2016 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    So Jean, just to be clear, when you called EOS a “Bitch,” you meant that as a compliment?

  385. Jean Henry
    Posted November 29, 2016 at 10:01 pm | Permalink

    Pallast is a hack. Maybe this election audit will show that, but he seems immune to any contrary information. He just twists as necessary and digs in deeper. The supposed rigging of 2004 and 2000 is only documented by Palast. No one else has gone near his theories seriously. Because that shit is not verified. At all.. So not documented. At. All.

    I explained my comment to EOS. I was using hyperbolic speech to make a point– just as you did with me. My point was more salient than yours though.

  386. iRobert
    Posted November 30, 2016 at 12:16 pm | Permalink

    Any person making any sort of threat will claim it was hyperbolic speech when put on the spot. Excuses by the offending person, after the fact, don’t count for much. Do you have a history of violence?

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