“Legfest”… a benefit to preserve the legs of Patrick Elkins… October 11 at Woodruffs


Remember how, a few weeks ago, I told you that some friends and I were exploring ways to help densely bearded local troubadour Patrick Elkins pay the almost $10,000 in medical bills that he’d amassed over the past year, as a result of his ongoing battle with Deep Vein Thrombosis? Well, phase-one of our plan to assist Ypsilanti’s beloved puppeteer is now officially in effect. As of this morning, there’s a Fundrazr page where you can make monetary donations. (We’re not even through the first day, and we’ve already raised about $900, which should give you some indication of just how much Patrick is loved and appreciated.) And, we also announced the lineup for Legfest, the incredibly ambitious live fundraiser we’re planning for October 11 at Woodruff’s. Here it is…





You can’t buy tickets just yet, but we have set up a Facebook event page for Legfest, in case you’d like to tell us, and everyone else that you know, that you’re planning to attend.

And it’s kind of just a rumor at this point, but, if you don’t want to help out Patrick, there still may be something that you can do for fun on the night of the 11th. Word is that the band Girth will be performing a protest set, in their car, behind Woodruff’s. “Pat’s had robot legs for years,” a member of Girth told the band’s followers today online. “He’s just trying to make a quick buck.”

One last thing… Let’s all collectively take this opportunity to reflect on just how fucked up it is to live in the only successful, industrialized country in the world that does not provide health care for its people. The fact that Patrick needs to worry about the threats of bill collectors instead of just focusing on his recovery, I think, is unconscionable. As much as I love Pat, and welcome the opportunity to help him out in some small way, is this really the kind of world we want to live in… where we have to launch fundraising campaigns every time a friend needs to go to the emergency room with a blood clot which could, if left untreated, end his life? I know folks love their low taxes, but is that really the kind of world we want to leave for the next generation?

And, remember, if you can’t come out and join us on the 11th, you can make a donation online today.


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  1. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    I find it far more fucked up that a person can put “puppeteer” at the top of his resume, and expect to be provided free health care, at the expense of the public.

    yes yes, free health care for all would be great. But if everyone was spending their time playing with toys and finding increasingly more ridiculous ways to “be different” while not producing anything, then there would be no funds for such a luxury.

  2. Posted September 26, 2013 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    Don’t know if you saw this yet Mark: https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/8Zoi6

  3. Mr. X
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 8:33 am | Permalink

    I doubt “puppeteer” is on his resume. He has a full time job in Ann Arbor that does not involve puppets at all. Unfortunately, however, his employer doesn’t give him insurance. More importantly, what the fuck would be wrong with having puppeteer as ones profession? Did you not enjoy the Muppet Show as a child? I’d much rather have a child that grew up to be a puppeteer than an attorney for Monsanto or a mercenary for Haliburton. Is it just the amount of money that one makes that determines whether or not a profession is “legitimate” in your mind?

  4. Mr. X
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 8:54 am | Permalink

    Before engaging with Dan here, I’d encourage people to read through our earlier conversation on this subject, in which he suggested that all of this was Patrick’s fault for not purchasing insurance, completely ignoring the fact that he couldn’t obtain insurance, given that he has a preexisting condition.


  5. EOS
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 10:20 am | Permalink

    Mr. X,

    Perhaps you should follow your own advice and read through our earlier conversation. In Michigan, BCBS is required to provide insurance without regard to any preexisting condition. He could have, chose not to, but his friends can give him money if they want. That’s what’s great about living in a free capitalistic system.

  6. jen
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    I guess Dan will be enjoying the set by “Girth” then.

  7. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    Yes, read that previous thread, where Mr X is continually proven wrong on his “previous condition” meme

  8. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Jen, I’m not familiar with that band. Why would my post lead you to assume I like them?

  9. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    Wow, its as though EOS was there watching Patrick choosing not to get insurance, how amazing he knows all the circumstances of this stranger’s life, like some judgmental omnipresent being of some kind. Does Republican Jesus ™ tell you about what’s going on in Patrick’s mind? The merits of a system predicated upon an illusory notion of infinate economic growth from capitalizing off of the labor of alienated workers without representation in a technological plutocracy seems unrelated to our charity fundraiser. Enlighten me, how is helping out our friend with his medical bills like a cruel agribusiness that technologically rapes the Earth? or the violence of our fascistic financial system that operates above the law?

  10. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    It was a joke you dumbfuck

  11. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:41 am | Permalink

    Jesus Christ, Mr X. Are you suggesting that there are 3 choices in life? A) play with puppets B) become a lawyer for Monsanto or C) be a mercenary for Haliburton?

    Maybe I’m a recluse, but I don’t know a single person that is any of the three categoroes. And the only people i know OF that are in those categories, post here and think the public owes them health insurance, even though they spend their time assuming that “manscaping” in public is funny and play with puppets.

  12. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:47 am | Permalink

    Oh good. The Hypocrit King is amongst us. Hey Thom, can you explain that joke, I didn’t find the post funny so I assume I am missing something?

    Also, what do you need to know about Patrick’s like to deduce that he made a decision? The decision was “do I buy health insurance, or not?”. What else needs to be known?

    Personally, if I worked at a place that didn’t provide a subsidy for health insurance, I’d either look for another job, an additional job, or find a way to pay for it myself. I wouldn’t spend my time at local bars and play with puppets.

  13. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    “Maybe I’m a recluse” no, just an asshole, that couldn’t get a dog to piss on you if you were on fire. Again, thank the good Lord you are a privleged white Ann Arborist.

  14. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    I just like to needle the religious hypocrite, the phoney CINO who would have jeered the staggering, blood covered Christ.

  15. anonymous
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Neighbor needs help. Shit on him.

    You people make me sad.

  16. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    I don’t live in Ann Arbor. And is the guy that lives in his mothers house, and works for his mothers debt collection agency belittling someone as being “privledged?”. And did you really just call someone else a hypocrite? Really? From the guy that champions the crusade against consumerism, but makes his living via credit card companies, and lives in the strip mall capital of the Midwest?

    You never fail to amuse me, you silly bastard

  17. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

    And Thom and jen, still waiting for the explanation of how me enjoying a set by “girth” is considered funny here.

  18. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    Anonymous, I’m responding to Marks final few sentences, that some how everyone is owed free health care. Since you missed my point, I’ll make it more transparent. If everyone chose to live the life that Mr Elkins lives, who would pay for that “free” health care

  19. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:08 pm | Permalink

    You won’t be going to Patrick’s show, so you’ll be going to the Girth set instead, you idiot

  20. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    No. I won’t.

  21. Edward
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    Dan, are you under the impression that you’re being forced to attend this event? If not, I can’t imagine why you care.

  22. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Edward, I don’t know Patrick. I don’t care if you all give money to him. I have a problem with Mark claiming that we (americans) should be ashamed for not paying for his poor life decisions.

  23. Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    I will just say that

    1) Thom Elliot is one of my favorite people in the universe.

    2) The nature of Patrick’s hobbies doesn’t really have anything to do with anything.

    3) I find it interesting that free marketers would have such a serious problem with crowd sourcing Mr. Elkin’s bills. After all, people can choose or choose not to donate. They are not being compelled to pay. Even in a commercial insurance scheme, there are people who will utilize much less insurance than they pay for, effectively compelling the other participants in the insurance structure to pay their bills. Of course, one enters into such a contract aware of this possibility, but it is true that the “payers” are 1) unaware of who their money is benefitting (they might be gay!) and 2) whether the procedures are necessary or even cost effective.

    4) Though we have a market based system in the United States, it is not a completely free market. This is, of course, a good thing in the end. Taxation, which impacts the market, supports crazy things like build roads and educate people. Anti-trust laws block single players from dominating the market. In a truly free market system, the building of roads would be left to capital holders, who would, naturally, build roads only to suit their particular market aims. Moreover, in a truly free market capitalistic system, the emergence of monopolies would be perfectly acceptable, of course predicated on the possibility that a new market player would arise to create a reasonable competitor.

    Though I recognize the intent of the statement, one would, of course, take care not to overstate the ideas, recognizing, instead, that the reality is far more complicated that what the ideology would have one believe.

  24. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Oh, excuse me, classist Dexter resident armchair jerkoff. Why do you come to this page? You’re openly hated, you have no game at arguementation, you’re no thinker, just a hack writer with a grudge and poorly thought out political positions. You act like you know these people, and you don’t, you’re a fraud, a phoney. I hope you come to the show, would love to call you names in person, to your pink blustering face.

  25. anonymous
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    It helps to have a working understanding of the language. Mark said in the post that the band Girth would be performing an anti-Elkins event in their car behind the bar. Someone then suggested that you might enjoy it, Dan. You see, you said that you didn’t support this fundraiser, so someone said you might enjoy the anti-fundraiser.

  26. anonymous
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:18 pm | Permalink

    this blog has become a place where defensive attention-thirsty guys convene to berate each other

    edward please post using your other name

  27. Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    As for whether he has made a “poor life decision,” I am afraid that you are guilty of gross speculation. I, like Patrick, at one time did not have health insurance. In fact, I never had health insurance until I had reach the advanced age of 39.

    This was not, as you might suggest, due to any unwillingness to obtain health insurance, but simply because, despite having a degree from a top insitutions,

    1) I could not find a job which would provide it (in Michigan, though I looked for years)
    2) I did not possess nearly enough money to buy it from the job I did have.

    Believe me, if I would have been able to choose otherwise, I certainly would have done so.

    I am happy you were able to solve this problem in your own life. You should, of course, be very proud of yourself.

  28. anonymous
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:20 pm | Permalink

    They don’t want public health care, but yet get up in arms when friends try to pay medical bills.

    It defies logic.

    Would you rather he declared bankruptcy, Dan?

  29. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:35 pm | Permalink

    “Attention thristy” hardly describes me, but I do like to berate Dan you’re right

  30. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

    He doesn’t care either way, and the position does defy logic. He is just a hate filled, repulsive know-it-all.

  31. Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    It is pretty perplexing.

    Perhaps if his hobbies included things like watching baseball rather than puppetry, Dan would have more sympathy.

  32. EOS
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

    So what is Edward’s other name?

  33. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    That which you do for the least of my brothers, that you do unto me

  34. XXX
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    It’s like the Grinch looking down on Whoville, not understanding friendship, love, community.

  35. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Maybe you all missed this from mark.

    “Let’s all collectively take this opportunity to reflect on just how fucked up it is to live in the only successful, industrialized country in the world that does not provide health care for its people. The fact that Patrick needs to worry about the threats of bill collectors instead of just focusing on his recovery, I think, is unconscionable.”

    I am clearly (and actually specifically mention this) responding to Marks suggestion that “take this opportunity” to reflect on this.

    Like I’ve said several times now, the universal healthcare model would not work if everyone decided that puppetry is more important than worrying about your health. And if Patricks hobby was watching ESPN, the point would be the same. Stop wasting your time when you have needs and bills to pay. Stop waiting for people to give you shit that you obviously didn’t consider a priority.

  36. EOS
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Where’s your humility Thom? Why do you call Patrick the least? I won’t pay for your medical bills either.

  37. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    And for one of the 35 “anonymous” here, I’m still waiting to hear how me enjoying a set by girth is funny. I was told it was a joke.

  38. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:07 pm | Permalink


    Your life decisions put you in the position to be almost 40 and not having health coverage. I’m glad you have gotten that worked out now.

    I’m not belittling the “least amongst us” I’m just not going to be shamed for thinking that the public isn’t responsible to provide things that a person is capable of providing for himself. If someone is able bodied and CHOOSES not to buy insurance, them they have made a stupid decision. I’d be more empathetic to that person if he or she worked a second job, or made sacrifices. Playing with puppets, hanging out in bars, and trying to impress people with how weird you can be are not sacrifices

  39. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

    Won’t need it thanks EOS, just trying to remind you of your Christian obligation to the poor, the hungry, the infirmed, the widowed, the orphaned, you know, all that charity your Republican comrads tell you is hippy bullshit. That which you do not do for the least of my brothers, that you do not do for me. Patrick is in working poverty, and infirmed, the very people Christ says in Matthew that he will damn you to perdition for not helping.

  40. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    Dan, you do nothing but belittle the humble with your sickening Victorian meritocratic eugenic worldview. Patrick isn’t able bodied, you nitwit.

  41. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

    Patrick was unable to work for the past decade? I was told that he had a job. Which one is it?

  42. EOS
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    Patrick is neither poor nor infirmed. Anyone who pays his bills for him is just enabling him.

  43. EOS
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    And Republicans don’t have comrades. You’re on the wrong end of the political spectrum.

  44. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    He’s clearly disabled by this condition, he has a job and couldn’t afford insurance, you have your right to your shitty opinion, but not your own facts.

  45. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    I was right! Republican Jesus ™ is giving EOS direct insight into a stranger’s life!

  46. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    You’re the most pisspoor excuse for a follower of Christ in the world.

  47. Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

    “Your life decisions put you in the position to be almost 40 and not having health coverage. I’m glad you have gotten that worked out now.”

    I’m impressed with how much you know of my life and my decisions. Believe me, if health insurance would have been available to me, even for purchase as a reasonable price, I would have taken it. The fact is, like a lot of Americans, it simply wasn’t.

  48. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Did this disability prevent him from getting a job, over the past decade? It didn’t seem to hinder his participation in his hipster activities around town

  49. EOS
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:32 pm | Permalink

    Can’t find a 2nd job to earn a measly $100 more a week? Or spend $50 less and earn $50 more each week?

  50. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink


    Why did you DECIDE to get jobs and degrees that wouldn’t lead to you being gainfully employed?

    You were not forced to take those jobs or get the degrees. You clearly understand the idea that you can make something out of yourself, regardless of your background. Just saying that YOU put yourself in those situations by the time you’re in your 30s

  51. karen
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    isn’t the real cause of patrick’s medical problems the decision to wear extremely tight-fitting jeans?

    if i remember correctly charlie slick sang about patrick’s predeliction for skinny jeans at one of those puppet talk show things a few years ago.

  52. Posted September 26, 2013 at 2:19 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know Patrick Elkins; I wish him well, and hope you can help him with his medical bills The funniest thing here, though, is Dan’s animosity to puppeteers. Are they the next group to be demonized by conservatives? Jim Henson was a Democrat! Shari Lewis was a Democrat! Down with these manipulators of unholy idols!

  53. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    My animosity is not towards puppeteers, its towards adults that make a conscience decision to put their hobbies above their responsibilities. I’d love to go fishing every day and sit by a lake or in a boat. If I chose to do that instead of buying health insurance, then I wouldn’t have anyone to blame but myself. And I certainly wouldn’t be shaming people for not thinking I deserve it.

    And ftr, I support obama care. But I still think people that have the capacity to provide for themselves but don’t are selfish and/or lazy. Have the same feeling about people on “welfare.”. Some people need it. Too many people use it as a crutch

  54. K2
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    I could understand it if he was a mime, but…..

  55. Leg-A-Thon
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 3:25 pm | Permalink

    We’re just $60 away from breaking the $1,000 mark. Can someone make a donation in Dan’s name and put us over the top?


  56. Meta
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 4:27 pm | Permalink

    Popular Science announced yesterday that they’d stopped allowing comments on their website. This was at least in part because of the nastiness and insanity they were seeing.


  57. kjc
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

    Since all of us know plenty of deserving people with debt from medical bills, most of whom do not have friends who can or will help them pay, I think it’s obvious that Patrick’s doing something right through his many connections/friendships. He’s popular in this community and Dan hates that, especially because in this case his puppet loving bar hopping ways are helping him gain relief from an unfortunate economic situation that is widely shared. I feel Dan’s pain, in a way, as I’ve met many people in dire straits in Ypsi who have no community connections or support. But it doesn’t hurt them that Patrick has it. It just makes him fortunate, despite his physical condition and financial responsibilities.

    Stop hating. It’s bad for you.

  58. Posted September 26, 2013 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    I went to a fundraiser not too long ago in Ann Arbor for a friend with cancer. This event for Patrick, sadly, is not an isolated event in America. The most prevalent cause of bankruptcy is medical debt. It’s amazing to me that people in other countries don’t have to consider such things. I was with Patrick the last time his leg started flaring up. He taped it up himself and was reluctant to go to the hospital, knowing that it would cost more than he could afford. That’s fucked up. He knew he likely had a life threatening clot in his leg, but he didn’t want to go because of the expense. Thankfully, he went the next day, and they were able to deal with it. How many Americans don’t go, though? And how much more productive would be be as a nation if we weren’t always in fear about our health?

  59. Posted September 26, 2013 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    “Why did you DECIDE to get jobs and degrees that wouldn’t lead to you being gainfully employed?”


    Did I mention that Thom Elliot is one of my favorite people in the universe?

    I also like puppets, by the way. Though I’ve never seen Mr. Elkins do his act, it’s obvious that he provides an important public service that makes people happy. For this, people are donating money to help a guy’s health problems.

    I think I’ll donate, too.

  60. Posted September 26, 2013 at 7:58 pm | Permalink

    There. I donated. I helped a dude out.

    I hope he gets better and keeps doing his puppet shows and lives a happy life. We need more people like him.

  61. Posted September 26, 2013 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

    I would also like to say, that I encourage people to do as much stupid shit in life as possible.

    If there were no room for stupidity, we’d never have any good ideas.

  62. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 9:07 pm | Permalink


    I have no idea why you keep repeating that Thom Elliott is one of your favorite people. I guess you would like everyone to know that you love hypocrites that rant incoherently about consumerism, but then collect a pay check provided by credit card companies. Or maybe you want everyone to know that you love hypocrites that call other people “privleged,” even though this person is a 30 something year old man, living in his mother’s house and working for his mother.

  63. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    lol, this place never fails to amuse me. Just like the previous thread on this, the peanut gallery has to chime in with their personal attacks and avoid the actual conversation. lol. yes. yes. I’m severely jealous that someone else has friends that enable his poor decision making. i have no one in my life that would care if I neglected my health so that I could pursue my dreams of playing with toys. very good.

    Let me know when you understand the conversation at hand. Try to discuss why the american public should pay for the health care of an able body person that CHOSE not to buy it himself.

    Rallying together with personal insults on anyone with a dissenting opinion is embarrassing. It just proves that you have no argument on the topic.

  64. Save Leg
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

    Daniel, my friend,

    If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Love never fails.

    Where is the love? Where is the compassion? Where is your God in your comments? Why do they ring so empty in my ears?

  65. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 10:21 pm | Permalink


    “The most prevalent cause of bankruptcy is medical debt. It’s amazing to me that people in other countries don’t have to consider such things.”

    as pointed out in the previous thread, $10k is not really all that much in medical bills. I’d guess that I’m a of similar age to that of Patrick, and I’ve paid easily three times that in medical insurance premiums and that is with an employer who pays much more than half of the actual cost. Income level doesnt matter, I could have chose not to have that insurance. That extra money in my pocket could have paid for a new car, or a nice trip somewhere or something that I enjoy doing as a hobby. But you make sacrifices, you pay for your needs before you pay for your wants. At least, thats how it should be.

    This conversation could be applied to higher education as well. most people that have a post secondary education have 10s of thousands of $ in debt. I’d wager that you think we (the public) should pay for that as well. Again, people CHOSE to be in those situations. Why is the public responsible for paying for other people’s choices?

    If I CHOOSE to take out a loan and open up a restaurant; if that restaurant fails, is it your responsibility to pay for it? Whats the difference?

    I know you’ll say that free health care and a college education should be a “right” in our country, but why do you think that? Why have generations and generations of Americans not only gotten by, but prospered, without those things being “free?”

  66. dragon
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 10:31 pm | Permalink

    I admit that I haven’t read the entire thread, but did you ever find out who stole the strawberries?

  67. Mark Lee
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 10:38 pm | Permalink

    Speaking of free markets. Peter Larson , do you know of something similar to the S&P 500 for Africa? I’d like to invest there to make money to donate to Patrick Elkins so he could do his puppet work full time. Thanks!

  68. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:02 pm | Permalink

    dragon, like I’ve mentioned a half of a dozen times now, maybe you guys have no idea what the topic at hand is. It’s not Patrick, or puppeteers, or mimes. its the idea that many among you think that others should finance your decision making. if you find that topic to be inconsequential, then so be it.

    if everyone wasnt so hostile to dissenting opinion here and actually considered what is being discussed, I wouldnt have to literally spell out what the conversation is about. Everyone is so quick to hate on the person that disagrees with mark. jesus fuckin christ. i dont give a shit if you all donate your own legs to Patrick. Just explain to me why you agree with Mark’s statements that we should be ashamed to live in a country that doesnt pay for other people’s poor life choices.

  69. dragon
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:10 pm | Permalink

    Please tell me how many of your precious dollars have been spent on Mr. Elkins health care?

  70. Dan
    Posted September 26, 2013 at 11:35 pm | Permalink


    At first glance, I’d say none, but its possible that his ER visits were subsidized by tax dollars. I’m not really sure. Again, thats not the point.

    please tell me why any of my dollars SHOULD BE spent on the health care of an able bodied man, as mark suggested.

  71. questions
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    Beneath all of the toxic bullshit, this is an interesting conversation.

    Dan, I think that, had you not started out by demeaning Patrick’s artwork, this conversation would have unfolded much differently. When you start out by saying that he “plays with puppets” I think it’s inevitable that his friends will step in to defend him. You claim not to hold any personal animosity toward Patrick, but the contempt is palpable. In the future, if you want to have a reasoned debate on an issue, do yourself a favor and don’t start out by establishing yourself as an asshole.

    You do raise an interesting point, though. To what extent is Patrick to blame? Putting aside for the moment that he caused his medical condition by wearing “hipster” pants (Karen), I think most sane people would agree that this condition was not his fault. Like people who get cancer, or get struck by lightening, it was just the bad luck of the draw. It could have happened to any of us. Can we agree on this? It’s also been established that Patrick works full time. So, let’s start from there. Let’s assume that Patrick is not a bum, and that he did not bring this on himself. He’s not a dope fiend who broke a leg while stealing a car. He’s a contributing member of society who has an issue with blood clots. The question then becomes, how much should someone be expected to work in order to insure him or her self?

    Clearly some of you think that working 40 hours a week is not enough in today’s world. And I think that’s the crux of this. Some people think that Patrick should have been working a second or third job in order to obtain insurance. Is it no longer enough to work 40 hours a week? Is the 60 hour work week the new normal? Or, should Patrick have forgone eating in order to pay insurance premiums?

    Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that Patrick could have obtained insurance on the private market, how much do you think that it would have cost him? Given his existing condition and history of hospitalization, would it have been $400 a month? Does it sound reasonable to anyone that a person in this position should be expected to spend more on health insurance than he does on housing?

  72. What Dan Said
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    “I find it far more fucked up that a person can put “puppeteer” at the top of his resume, and expect to be provided free health care, at the expense of the public.

    yes yes, free health care for all would be great. But if everyone was spending their time playing with toys and finding increasingly more ridiculous ways to “be different” while not producing anything, then there would be no funds for such a luxury.”

    – Dan

  73. Patrick's Employment
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 9:15 am | Permalink

    “It’s worth reiterating, I think, that that Patrick has a full-time job, which he’s held for the past several years. He’s not by any means a slacker looking to take advantage of the system. Unfortunately, the company that he works for made the decision some time ago to stop hiring full-time employees in his department, as they’d done for years, and instead rely on “contract” employees… which essentially means that they hire people to do the exact same work as they always did, but without having to give them health insurance or other benefits. Fortunately, Patrick has reason to believe that things may be changing on that front, and that his company may be moving him to a full-time, non-contract position. This, of course, would be awesome, as the new position would give Patrick access to health insurance, but, unfortunately, it doesn’t help with the outstanding debt he’s accumulated thus far.”

    I guess Dan missed that memo.

  74. Patrick's Employment
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    People keep and quit jobs for a variety of reasons.

    I know it may seem to others to be quite simple to find a job with ample health and retirement benefits, particularly to those who already have jobs with ample health and retirement benefits.

  75. Me
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Don’t let them get you down, Pat. Your leg, on its own, is twice the man that either of them are. These are just two miserable people in a vast sea of support.

  76. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    Just wait till Atlas shrugs. At some point in the near future the vast sea of support will stop providing for those who choose to be irresponsible.

  77. Posted September 27, 2013 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    I like this site. I have given more to charity from information on this site than any other single source.

    I can’t really remember it all, but I think I gave $100 to Ozone House, approximately $250 to the National Network of Abortion Funds, and now $60 to Patrick. Ther were others but I’m blanking on what they were.

    It’s interesting because in all three of those cases ,it was in response to some narrow minded individual commenting here.

    Thank you Mark, you perform a great public service here.

  78. anonymous
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    The more the bitch, belittle, and quote Ayn Rand, the stronger we grow.

  79. Posted September 27, 2013 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    What evidence is there to suggest that Mr. Elkins was in the least bit “irresponsible?”

    He does puppets in bars. Who fucking cares?

    Please present the evidence.

  80. John Galt
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 11:51 am | Permalink

    He didn’t work three jobs. He shopped somewhere other than Walmart. He heats his apartment. What more evidence do you need?

  81. EOS
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    What does he do to puppets in bars?

  82. Posted September 27, 2013 at 11:59 am | Permalink

    I was joking about the puppet hate because I’ve known so many professional puppeteers, who made a living on shows like “Sesame Street,” “Pee-Wee’s Playhouse,” “Beakman’s World,” etc. I went to college with Julie Taymor; she did well “playing with puppets.”

    Sometimes people make responsible choices, but fate intervenes. Many people went into journalism way back when, and couldn’t know that the internet would drive papers out of business. Dan, do you really think you will never have bad luck and need help?

    A funny footnote: Penn Jillette, who is certainly an Ayn Rand ideologue, helped Al Goldstein when he was down and out; and Goldstein made some of the most irresponsible choices known to man. But then, Penn’s not a Christian…

  83. Mr. X
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Penn, I suspect, is a lot more “christian” than a lot of Christians.

  84. Posted September 27, 2013 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    My favorite Ayn Rand quote:

    “What are your masses but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it? What is the people but millions of puny, shrivelled, helpless souls that have no thoughts of their own, no dreams of their own, no will of their own, who eat and sleep and chew helplessly the words others put into their mildewed brains?…I know no worse injustice than justice for all.”

  85. Meta
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

    Curiously, while you shouldn’t contribute toward paying for the health care of a friend, there’s no problem with contributing toward the production of a film about Ayn Rand.

    “Atlas Shrugged producers turn to Kickstarter for help warning others against moochers”

    In an effort to further Ayn Rand’s message critiquing altruism and promoting the virtue of selfishness, rejecting all moochers who would dare claim your money by tears, the producers of the third Atlas Shrugged movie have launched a Kickstarter campaign asking for donations, predicated on reminding supporters of the critics who have hurt it. As reported earlier this year, despite the free market repeatedly determining it would rather not have any Atlas Shrugged movies, producers Harmon Kaslow and John Aglialoro boldly refused to relinquish their rational self-interests to a world that would dare take their ideas from them, chiefly by not paying to see them. And because of their indefatigable commitment to film Atlas Shrugged: Who Is John Galt? by the fall—and thus propagate its titular character’s manifesto to “never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine”—Kaslow and Aglialoro have turned to asking other men to give them $250,000.

    Of course—using the same foresight that’s convinced them it’s the third Atlas Shrugged movie that will finally reach the masses, despite the first two earning less than $8 million combined—both have already anticipated that certain people may find something ironic about their asking others to give, all to create a movie that’s little more than one long speech decrying the act of asking others to give. “Isn’t asking for charity antithetical to Ayn Rand’s philosophy?” reads the FAQ, to which the answer is an obvious no, because Rand’s philosophy just had a problem with being forced to give through some absolute moral authority, which Kickstarter definitely isn’t (yet).

    “The Atlas Shrugged Kickstarter campaign is of course a voluntary value-for-value exchange. You are not obligated to contribute,” it says, reassuring you that donating your money to a wealthy Hollywood producer and fitness equipment magnate who definitely don’t need it still qualifies as supporting rugged individualism, because you ruggedly, individually made the choice to do so, rather than out of some sense of subservience to a larger ideology.

    Rad more:

  86. Jen
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

    I think we should collectively pool our spare change from under our couch cushions and get Dan a fishing rod, so he can get out of the house and away from his obsessive compulsive tendency of trolling blogs.

  87. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 27, 2013 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    The CINO quotes a god hating sociopath as though she were some kind of reliable theorist. Is it that you just don’t care about Christ’s commands, and instead follow a hardcore atheistic philosophers of “ethical egoism”, whose only virtue is self interest? How could you possibly hold the antichristian worldview of Ayn Rand, and be a follower of Christ? You cannot serve God & Mammon, how can you serve Christ & unconscionable greed? CINO

  88. Posted September 27, 2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    I was fairly perplexed by that as well. I can’t see how being a Christian and being a Randian are in the least bit compatible.

  89. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 12:33 am | Permalink

    Don’t know why you two have to be so intolerant and judgemental. If you studied the Bible maybe you would be in a better position to interpret it for others.

  90. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 5:46 am | Permalink

    I study the Bible, I have many scholarly commentaries, and use only the Oxford annotated Bible, the only one that actually says in English what the Bible actually says, and there’s nothing Randian about the teachings of Christ whatsoever. In fact, they are mutually exclusive, she explicitly represents Mammon. If you can point out some scripture that would support the antichristian, capital worshipping views of a deranged atheist novelist who was sexually attracted to a child murderer, I’d be very interested. I’m the intolerant & judgemental one here, yet somehow I’m not the one praying that holy billionaires would stop supporting the parasitical mud races, and rightfully turn their backs on humanity. I would actually love if all the billionaires of the world would leave the human race for an island, it would save the real people of Earth the trouble of burning them out of their skyscrapers, private islands, & mansions and lynching them in the streets. If Atlas shrugs, we could just incendiary bomb it from the sky, and be rid of their machinations for good in one fell swoop. All power to the communes.

  91. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    “Rants incoherently about consumerism” I despise capitalism, technological modernity, and the American political system, as they have created the conditions which gave rise to global climate change, which has put all biological life in peril. This is a controversial stance, but surely not incoherent. All human beings collectively & individually are responsable for this tragicomic state of absurdity where there’s no way to escape this system, yet its the system that will cause its’ own destruction. “Hypocrite” if you could tell me a way to earn a living that doesn’t involve global capital, I’d love to hear it. As this is clearly the cycleing glitch of perpetual crisis of late capital, its likely it will cease to exist in our lifetimes. I’m a legal assistant probably going for a Masters’ in social work, you’re an ignorent slave to capital. Peter’s my friend, I think I may be one of his favorite humans because I’m not afraid to stridently say what’s on my mind, but to tell it how it is in regards to you Dan.

  92. Posted September 28, 2013 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    “Don’t know why you two have to be so intolerant and judgemental. If you studied the Bible maybe you would be in a better position to interpret it for others.”

    I don’t understand what could possibly be “intolerant” or “judgmental” about being perplexed at how a person can be a Christian and a Randian at the same time.

    I’m wondering, though, if you’ve had a chance to do your reading on either? Rand was rabidly anti-religion.

    Perhaps you would like to explain to us how the views of Ayn Rand and Christianity are compatible?

    I’m sure that everyone is interested in hearing about it.

  93. Mr. X
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    EOS asked people to be more tolerant. Now that’s funny.

    E, have you ever read the stuff that you post here?

  94. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 9:06 am | Permalink

    So what political party is consistent with the Christian philosophy? Should I be a Republican and support endless war? Or a Democrat and promote abortion and homosexual behavior? Sorry to disappooint you, but I don’t embrace all the tenants of any worldly political philosophy.

  95. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 9:11 am | Permalink

    2 Thessalonians 3:10

  96. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 9:41 am | Permalink

    Mr. X,

    Can you differentiate between having a different opinion and being intolerant? Do I engage in prolonged personal attacks like many on this site? Do I discuss the issues or resort to name-calling? Sometimes I have been snarky, but would I try to engage persons who hold differing opinions in lengthy conversations if I were truly intolerant?

  97. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 9:42 am | Permalink

    You think that quote out of context supports Randianism?? (we’re talking about someone who works by the way). By this reasoning you make Paul sound as though he would be for letting amputees or the cognitively impaired starve on the streets. Do you think that is consistent with the teachings of Christ? I think no political philosophy represents the radical pacifism of Christ’s teaching, which is so radical as to be totally unrealizable in modernity. Everyone who pays taxes contributes to the machine that wages war forever, life itself in modernity precludes the possiblity of being truly Christian…that should trouble you. You don’t follow all the tenants of worldly philosophy? Well no kidding, but you do quote and believe in two mutually exclusive belief systems, one which objectively rules out the other.

  98. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 10:18 am | Permalink

    There is a big difference between being unable to work and being unwilling to work. In a similar manner, not being able to afford health insurance is different that not being willing to pay for health insurance.

  99. Posted September 28, 2013 at 10:22 am | Permalink

    OK, fair enough. If 2 Thessalonians 3:10 is to be considered to embody the Christian faith, then yes, Christ was a Randian (though these are actually the words of Paul, so maybe Paul was a Randian).

    I am absolutely of the opinion that Christianity is not the accepting and inclusive religion that liberals would like it to be. For that, I am happy to NOT be a Christian.

    I still find it difficult to understand how Christianity, which demands full unquestioning faith, and Randism, which demands the exact opposite, can coexist happily.

  100. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 10:32 am | Permalink

    Yes, you both are correct. There is certainly no virtue in selfishness in the Christian worldview. One cannot embrace all of Rand’s philosophy and still consider themselves to be a follower of Christ.

  101. Posted September 28, 2013 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    Actually, you can’t embrace any of it, since all of her “philosophy” is predicated on selfishness.

  102. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Christianity does not require full, unquestioning faith. We are commanded to love God with all our heart, soul, MIND, and strength. We are commanded to meditate on scripture and to test all that is spoken against what is written in the Bible. Blind faith is a dead faith. Reason and faith are complementary, not exclusive. Isaiah wrote, “Come, Let us reason together..”

  103. Posted September 28, 2013 at 11:46 am | Permalink

    You have a really wish washy view of Christianity, which puts you in the same camp the would naively believe that Christianity compels us to support government welfare programs.

    I’m sure that it’s rather convenient to take that stance, since it allows you to incorporate just about any worldview you like, even if it is heretical to the basic messages of Christ.

    While we’re at it, since you are a Randian, you might as well be a follower of Anton Lavey, as his messages were nearly word for word parroted from Ayn Rand (which he admitted).

    Since your “faith,” or whatever you want to call it, allows you to believe just about anything you like, following the selfish and materialistic words of the Church of Satan could be a nice addition to your already schizophrenic views.

  104. EOS
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    That’s not at all what I wrote or believe.

  105. Dan
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    It appears no one wants to discuss the topic mark initiated. I was hoping to discuss why people here think the american public should pay for the health care of able bodied working adults that choose not to purchase healthcare, regardless if they are a friend of the blog or some lady in Indiana.

    But since you all can’t remove your personal friendship from that equation, I’ll play along with what you THINK I’m saying. Even though I’ve never called your friend lazy and only questioned his life choices, lefts assume I do think hes lazy. Whatever. My opinion is meaningless. If you want to discuss this aspect fine.

    So, I’m assuming Patrick is around 30 something years old. I don’t know him, so that may be wildly innaccurate in either direction, but I’m basing it on pics posted here. So if someone with a serious medical condition is roughly 30 years old, you would imagine there will be lifelong medical expenses. At least many more medical expenses. So is the answer fundraising to pay existing debt, or finding a way to pay for insurance?

    What will the situation be like in 10 years? The lack of planning is what caused this debt to begin with. So what’s the plan?

    And for the record, I’m well aware that Patrick is employed, as posted a few times now. Never said he wasn’t. But even if his employer did offer a group benefit plan, it would likely cost at least a few hundred $ a month out of his pay check.

  106. Dan
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    And to which ever one of you posted biblical quotes to me as “save a leg,” I’ll tell you the same thing I told the people knocking at my door at 10 am today. I do not believe in deities, of any sort, so you are wasting our time. You either have me confused with someone else, or made some bad assumptions about me.

  107. Dan
    Posted September 28, 2013 at 9:46 pm | Permalink


    “I despise capitalism, technological modernity, and the American political system, as they have created the conditions which gave rise to global climate change, which has put all biological life in peril. ”

    Posted from an iPhone or MacBook made in china that his mom paid for.

    How can anyone take this clown seriously?

  108. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 29, 2013 at 4:10 am | Permalink

    How is it you know what my mother buys me? Why do people take what I say seriously? Probably because I’m a learned, often eloquent philosopher, something that cannot be bought. I also don’t know how seriously people take me, but I have made some impact on my community through my thinking, lectures, and writing, an impact which you will never have as a nameless nonthinking trogladite. I suppose you wouldn’t know what that means, as a nonreader/nonthinker, but you know, I read hundreds of books and articles, write, and think hard about the world. If you would maybe take the time to read a book here of there, perhaps you would uncover the staggering existential emptiness of your life, stop depending on internet trolling for 100% of your socialization, go outside for a change, and become a real human being. I think using the oppressors’ tools against the oppressors (the cellphone) is a totally legitimate way of using this technology, they have made it impossible to live without it. I am totally against modern so-called “progress”, and I relish the coming day when the grid inevitably fails, the world’s banking system collapses, the global economy is destroyed, and modernity shattered forever. All power to the communes.

  109. Thom Elliott
    Posted September 29, 2013 at 4:26 am | Permalink

    Oh no kidding? The shrill anonymous mocker of the less fortunate, hater of art, hater of his fellow human beings, hater of himself, knows the ultimate nature of reality… that there are no gods! Well congrats, through no thinking, you have somehow discoved pure ontology. It must be amazing to do no thinking, no reading, and know the ultimate truth of not just mine & Patrick’s life, but the universe! How do you find the time between craming your face with triple bacon cheese burgers, large diet Cokes, and fried foods to know so much about the nature of Being? Are you a god Dan? You can tell me.

  110. jcp2
    Posted September 29, 2013 at 6:27 am | Permalink

    Dan, Patrick and “those who could work and buy insurance but choose not to”, may or may not add anything meaningful to the lives of “us, those that work and pay for healthcare”. That is unknown. What is known is that “they” will end up more ill than “us” in aggregate, and “we” will pay for “their” healthcare anyway, in the form of a much more expensive ER visit. Unless “we” change the law that allows ERs to check the insurance coverage of a patient before deciding to treat “them”, the more prudent immediate choice would be to pay for “them” when it’s the least expensive to do so. In fact, because “we” are better choosers of life choices than “them”, then this is the choice that “we” must make, unless “we” secretly are more like “them” than “we” would like to be.

    In the long run, shouldn’t “we” make our more appealing for “them” to stop being like “they” are and become more like “us”?

  111. Dan
    Posted September 29, 2013 at 11:12 am | Permalink

    Thom, maybe you should spend more time on your thinking. Maybe then you wouldn’t ask nonsensical questions, such as asking someone that doesn’t believe in gods if he himself is a god. And maybe you’d understand the meaning of the word believe.

    And since you like to mock people that you BELIEVE stuff their face with bacon triple cheeseburgers, which one of us has type 2 diabetes? I hope your mom pays for your health insurance, so we don’t have to have this conversation again prior to Legfest 2.

  112. dan
    Posted September 29, 2013 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    We share a name. This embitters me deeply. Signed, different Dan.

  113. site admin
    Posted September 30, 2013 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    We’re almost up to $1,250 on the Fundrazr site!

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