Michigan House rushes though first of a series of bills restricting a woman’s reproductive freedom

Remember how I told you, late last week, that Michigan legislators were considering a series of bills in the House that would effectively end abortion access, and seriously limit women’s reproductive options across the state? Well, it looks as though, despite the efforts of Planned Parenthood, and others, the first, and largest, of the three bills has been jammed through by Republicans. (The other two are expected to be voted upon shortly.) The following comes by way of Think Progress.

The Michigan House has passed HB 5711, the nation’s most restrictive anti-abortion bill that combines some of the worst attacks on women’s access to abortion care into one bill. The massive 45-page, Republican-backed legislation limits when a woman could have an abortion and puts a greater, unnecessary burden on abortion providers.

Opponents have loudly protested against the measure that has been jammed through the legislature — it was introduced on May 31 and a committee approved it last week — and Democratic lawmakers spoke out against it before the House passed the bill 70-39. “This bill is not about protecting women’s health,” said state Rep. Kate Segal (D).
Here’s what you should know about these far-reaching anti-abortion bills:

1) Bans Abortions After 20 Weeks, Even For Rape And Incest Victims: A woman would not be able to have an abortion after 20 weeks of gestation based on the widely disputed idea that a fetus can feel pain after that point. The only exception would be if a woman’s life was in danger.

2) Transforms Doctors Into Detectives: The Republican-backed legislation would make it a crime for anyone to coerce a woman into having an abortion. Doctors will have to give their patients a questionnaire to inform them of the illegality of coercion and determine if the woman had been coerced or is the victim of domestic abuse before the abortion procedure.

3) Limits Access For Rural Women: Under the omnibus bill, doctors would have to be physically present to perform a medical abortion, thus preventing a doctor from administering abortion-inducing medication by consulting via telephone or internet. This would especially hurt rural women, who may have to travel hours to meet in-person with a specialist.

4) Requires Doctors To Purchase Costly Malpractice Insurance: If HB 5711 goes into effect, then doctors would be required to carry $1 million in liability insurance if they perform five or more abortions each month or have been subject to two more more civil suits in the past seven years, among other requirements. But the qualifications are so vague that almost all doctors who perform abortions could be required to carry the additional liability insurance at a potential cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

5) Regulates Clinics Out Of Existence: HB 5711 would create new regulations so that any clinic that provides six or more abortions in a month or one which advertises abortion services would have to be licensed as a “freestanding surgical outpatient facility.” That means that even if a clinic does not offer surgical abortions, it would be required to have a full surgical suite…

So, now it looks as though the fight is set to move on to the Senate, where the legislation will likely be taken up in September. As Republicans outnumber Democrats nearly 2-to-1, I’m not optimistic, but perhaps there’s a chance that they can be persuaded to do the right thing, if we mobilize now, and stay engaged over the summer.

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60 Comments

  1. Demetrius
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 5:26 am | Permalink

    Michi-ssippi …

  2. Edward
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:01 am | Permalink

    Surely our Governor will not sign this into law, right?

    Anyone willing to make a wager?

  3. Thom Elliott
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    The bleakness of today’s news is so staggering, I’m having trouble taking it all in. How can it be possible this monsterous state of affairs has come to pass? We (men) already kill over a thousand women a year in domestic violence in MI, do we need to up the ante by having them perish in alleyways as well? We don’t have enough desperate people in MI already? We have to make things even harder for women in poverty? We don’t have any other pressing issues that our amoral state govt should focus its attention on? How I wish there was a Hell I could send these motherless fucks, if this passes it will be a day to rue.

  4. EOS
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    It bans abortions after 20 weeks because the baby is able to survive outside the womb at that point. It will be passed by the Senate and Snyder will sign it if he is interested in re-election.

  5. Lynne
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    Ugh. I’ve never been embarrassed to be a Michigander before.

  6. Megan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:43 am | Permalink

    EOS, a baby cannot survive outside of the womb at 20 weeks. And if it could, then there should be no problems inducing labor to get the fucking thing out if it’s killing the mother or dying itself. But that will all be outlawed now. These assholes don’t give a shit about the woman and her life at all.

    Less than 1% of abortions after 20 weeks are for choice. 99% of them are for medical problems and they are trying to pick and choose which ones are worthy and it’s a mistake that’s going to cost women their lives and sanity and families HUGE unnecessary heartbreak.

    And I hope Snyder pulls a Utah and vetoes the entire fucking thing. There is no exemption for a non-viable fetus. That means that if a fetus is dead or dying a doctor can’t remove it. It will have to stay inside the woman, with everyone knowing that her body is killing it, until “nature” gets rid of it. That is one of the most disgusting and non-sane things I’ve heard. These people don’t give a shit about the mother and her own sanity and emotional well being.

    I emailed everyone in the Senate and the House and faxed Snyder. I suggest everyone do the same.

  7. Megan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    And while i’m here, only religious nut jobs think that fetuses feel pain at 20 weeks. The AMA, which i believe has a little more credibility in this area, has determined they don’t feel pain and CANNOT feel pain until week 24 or 25 because the receptors in the brain aren’t even formed yet.

    That’s one of the things that pisses me off the most. These aholes are making medical claims with no medical proof and when actual studies exist that prove them wrong. That should be outlawed in itself! Any medical based laws must be backed by AMA (or equivalent) studies and proof.

  8. Megan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:47 am | Permalink

    Michigan
    Gov: migov@exec.state.mi.us
    Rick.Snyder@michigan.gov

    SengAnderson@senate.michigan.gov,
    SensBieda@senate.michigan.gov,
    SendBooher@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenjBrandenburg@senate.michigan.gov,
    SentCasperson@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenbCaswell@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenpColbeck@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenjEmmons@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenjGleason@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenmGreen@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenvGregory@senate.michigan.gov,
    SengHansen@senate.michigan.gov,
    SendHildenbrand@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenmHood@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenhHopgood@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenjHune@senate.michigan.gov,
    SentHunter@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenmJansen@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenbJohnson@senate.michigan.gov,
    SenrJones@senate.michigan.gov,
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    AlbertaTalabi@house.mi.gov,
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  9. EOS
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    Megan,

    The would you limit abortion after 24 weeks or at least support the use of anesthetic prior to dismemberment?

  10. Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:56 am | Permalink

    Personally, I think unless there is something seriously wrong with either the baby or the mother, nobody should be having an abortion at 20 weeks. The problem here, for me, is that it’s not clear whether the law accounts for the possibility of medical problems. “Threat to the life of the mother” is pretty vague.

    As for reelection, let’s hope that Snyder doesn’t sign the bill, so all right wingers in Michigan will vote Democrat in the next election.

  11. Megan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 8:09 am | Permalink

    I, personally, would be like Canada and have zero restrictions at all. They trust their women and families in that country.

    Believe me, the “i don’t think this is right for me” women are all done making their decisions by 12 weeks. 99% of abortions are within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

    Anyone having an abortion at 24 weeks is having a medical problem that needs to be dealt with.

  12. Posted June 14, 2012 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    Megan, you are very correct. Please don’t misunderstand me.

  13. EOS
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    At 24 weeks, if the mother is in a life threatening situation, then the baby will be delivered by c-section, not aborted. Removing a dead fetus from a woman’s uterus is not an abortion and would not be prevented by passage of this law.

  14. EOS
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    The brain and spinal cord begins to form at 4 weeks. The heart begins to beat and the blood circulates at 5 weeks. By 10 weeks growth of brain cells is exponential, with 1/4 million neurons formed every minute. Just a mass of cells? Don’t fool yourself. The fetus withdraws from painful stimuli around 15 weeks. Pain is perceived differently than a fully grown adult but that does not mean that pain is not perceived at all.

  15. Thom Elliott
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 9:24 am | Permalink

    It won’t be enough, now that they have a taste for brutally regulating uteri, they won’t stop till we’re having miscarridge detectives. EOS, not only are you an expert on thousands of homeschooled children’ lives, and how superior racist homeschooling is, but you’re a know-it-all of feotal neuroanatomy and physiology? Wow, for a shut-in holocoast denier you sure have a lot to say about things medical. Where did you study anatomy?

  16. Robert
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    The state GOP know most women are too busy trying to scratch out a living and take care of their families to notice what their stooge representatives have been doing so quietly this month. I hope women’s groups make sure everyone knows before election day.

  17. Star Child
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 10:23 am | Permalink

    You know, the GOP want to keep government out of peoples lives. Small government right? Unless it has something to do with who you sleep with or putting things in or taking things out of your body… hypocrites.

  18. Dan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 10:26 am | Permalink

    I like that people use the Dread Pirate Roberts’ definition of life.

  19. Lynne
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    I couldn’t help noticing that there is no provision for the health of the mother either. I know why too. Because the people who are passing this bill know full well that women just do NOT have elective late term abortions as a general rule. Pretty much EVERY single late term abortion is performed because a woman and a doctor determined that was the best course for her health. These law makers didn’t put a health provision in because they know doing so would make their law useless. They want to endanger women’s health just to have a little control over her uterus. sad really. And beyond disgusting.

    And just so we are clear, EOS. A c-section is *major* surgery and although most women will choose that route in order to save a viable live fetus, sometimes it isn’t the best option for the woman’s health. What this bill is saying is that women are too stupid to make such decisions for themselves and their families. That is beyond insulting.

  20. EOS
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 10:57 am | Permalink

    A C-section is safer than a late term abortion, and significantly quicker. If the physical health of the mother is in danger, time is critical, and a c-section is the quickest, safest method and also saves the lives of both patients.

    There is an exception for the life of the mother, but not “health”, because even mild depression has been used as an excuse to abort to save the “health” of the mother.

  21. Dan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    my biggest objection, is the lack of a rape/incest clause. In fact, the rapist should be aborted, as well.

  22. Thom Elliott
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

    Again, how are you qualified to have any medical opinion? Do they teach fundamentals of female reproductive anatomy inbetween readings of the Protcols of the Elders of Zion and bombmaking class at the underground rightwing militia you belong to?

  23. Posted June 14, 2012 at 2:50 pm | Permalink

    Dan, you made me laugh out loud re: rapist should be aborted too :) Yes!

    One of my friends from my lawyer days (she is still a lawyer, God bless her) and I were talking about this on the Book of Faces. Think about it…what better way to keep a sistah down than force her to give birth? Bonus points if the sperm donor (I hate to use the word “father”) is abusive, and can use the court system to harass and abuse her for 18 or so more years. If you have a kid you don’t want or are not ready for, you end up making choices that you would likely not make otherwise. I did legal aid law for seven years and by and large, the women were stuck in crappy jobs, trying to stay one step ahead of a landlord, trying to just get basic needs met. Remember Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs? When you can’t meet your basic needs, not much else matters. In other words, our forced mom ain’t gonna be up at the capital protesting or trying to organize her workplace or asking for silly things like equal pay…she is too busy trying to provide basic needs. It really is a great way to keep a girl down.

    And yes, I’m sure an easy response is that she should have kept her legs together/given a blowjob/not had sex…and that is also what this is about: not abiding women who want control of their own sexuality.

    The bad news is that I don’t see how we can prevent this from going through, short of a veto by GuvDick and I don’t see that happening.

  24. Megan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 3:08 pm | Permalink

    Patti – You can still have sex with your legs together. I’ll show you next time we see each other.

    And EOS – I’ll take multiple studies by the American Medical Association on fetal pain over your non-source marked comments about fetal pain at 15 weeks. Quit making shit up, you’re embarrassing yourself.

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?volume=295&issue=2&page=159
    “We do not know for certain whether a fetus has the capacity to feel pain prior to 29 weeks’ gestation. We as clinicians should focus on methods to deliver effective fetal analgesia safely while minimizing maternal risk.”

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429
    Conclusions Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.

  25. Posted June 14, 2012 at 3:57 pm | Permalink

    Is abortion legal in Pakistan?

  26. EOS
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/FetalPain091604.pdf

    Just because you are ignorant of the facts doesn’t mean I make things up.

  27. Dan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    EOS,

    Dr. Paul Ranalli is an admitted anti-abortion advocate. His opinion is therefore biased.

    Not that I have any direct info on when fetuses can feel pain, but quoting pro life propaganda does no good in an argument on the subject

  28. Lynne
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

    I can’t even believe this is up for discussion.

    The obvious solution to this abortion problem is to castrate men (and EOS should be first) upon puberty. Seriously, I consider that solution to be NO MORE absurd than the very idea of anyone telling someone else what they can do with their uterus.

    EOS, you either are a liar or you are ignorant. But a C-section is NOT less hard on a body than an abortion.

  29. Posted June 14, 2012 at 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Fortunately, EOS has not political power at all. He is a limp, castrated troll.

    The only place where EOS has anyone to listen to him is on this website.

  30. Dan
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    the name calling and personal attacks here, still baffle me. I get that 95% of you guys share the same ideology on almost everything, but dissenters arent automatically trolls.

    EOS actually articulates himself well, and has his own opinion on things, just because the masses disagree, doesnt make him a troll. He brings conversation to this place, otherwise it would be a figurative circle jerk.

    There are certainly others that are trolls here. people that just post quips and name call and contribute no actual conversation. EOS brings far more than they do.

  31. dirtgrain
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

    No he doesn’t.

  32. Meta
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

    Video of female House members being ignored on this issue, and reprimanded for using the word “vagina”.

    http://www.freep.com/article/20120614/NEWS15/120614049?fb_ref=artrectop&fb_source=home_multiline

  33. Demetrius
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 8:12 pm | Permalink

    Michigan’s unemployment rate is among the highest in the nation, and has been for a decade. Meanwhile real wages, benefits, job security, and retirement security are slowly being eroded.

    Our largest city, Detroit, teeters on the edge of bankruptcy, and many other cities, including Ypsilanti, face unprecedented budget crises.

    Our free, public education system is being dismantled in favor of substandard, for-profit and “charter” schools; and our once enviable system of public universities is being undermined at every turn.

    Much of our critical infrastructure is in tatters due to decades of deferred maintenance, including water and sewer systems, and many important bridges.

    Etc. …

    And YET – our Republican legislature, elected on a platform of “small government” is spending precious time (and our money) trying to tell doctors how to to their jobs — and women what they can (and can’t) do with their own bodies.

    Why there is not a non-stop, Wisconsin-style protest in Lansing these days is beyond comprehension.

    Once again, I’m sad and ashamed of my state — a place that was once the envy of much of America, and the World, for its high standard of living and generally “progressive” outlook is rapidly becoming the “Mississippi of the Midwest.”

  34. EOS
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

    Dan,

    Scroll to the bottom of the second page of the flyer. The pro-life views are backed up by scientific research. It is not mere opinion.

  35. kjc
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 11:08 pm | Permalink

    Lol dirtgrain.

  36. MrMikesHardCoreSot
    Posted June 14, 2012 at 11:46 pm | Permalink

    Dan,
    I think EOS is a simple minded person who is mentally defective. I don’t want to engage in name calling or personal attacks, as I’m sure you would find these highly offensive to your refined sensibilities. I also believe his psychological addiction to religious dogma is the source of his mental defect. After following his advice, and scrolling to the bottom of the second page of the flyer, I am severely disappointed at wasting my time. What I found in the notes was religious dogma masquerading as science. Some simple googling of the names there, and wikipedia, told me that one of the “expert” doctors on fetal pain is best known for transplanting the heads of monkeys. That’s just brilliant.

  37. EOS
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 5:43 am | Permalink

    Brain and Development. 22 (2000)
    Am J Obstet Gyn 163 (1990)
    Pediatric Research. V 51, No 1, 2002
    Am J Obst Gyn 120 (1974)

    “Religious dogma masquerading as science?” Hardly.

    People get so angry here because of the cognitive dissonance created by their stance. They want to be considered intelligent and tolerant yet they support a mother killing her baby up to and including at the time of delivery. They refuse to even consider the pain caused by limb dismemberment and won’t support giving any anesthesia to the baby because that would force them to acknowledge that they are destroying another human life. For years, pregnant women have been told that the baby developing in their womb is “just a blob of tissue”. Easiest way to discourage a mother from getting an abortion is to show her an ultrasound picture of her baby’s facial features. Then it is readily apparent which side of this argument has been spreading lies and misinformation.

    If one supports killing babies in the womb then there is no logical reason to deny a mother’s right to kill her baby after they have been born. An ethicist at Princeton, Peter Singer, advocates that mothers should be allowed to make the decision to “abort” up to 6 months after birth. Really, what right does society have to demand a mother sacrifice to feed and care for her offspring? Why does government have any interest in preventing the killing of young, helpless infants?

  38. Thom Elliott
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 6:17 am | Permalink

    They have no awareness! They aren’t cogent of their lot, this is the fundamental flaw of this thinking, you attempt to make then into full ontological persons, and they aren’t. There is ontological priority to birth in the development of the person, and of course fetus won’t survive at all without the woman! None of that is why abortion is terrible, abortion is terrible because we have a brutal patriarchal society that this bill more then illustrates that requires women to make terrible and often forced and desperate choices. I would love a society without abortion, but that will NEVER happen at the callus legislator’s pen, it will happen when our society leaves it patriarchal nihilism behind, and NOT A MINUTE SOONER.

  39. Thom Elliott
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 6:43 am | Permalink

    It also should go without saying these “prolife” are; flesh-eating war mongers who support torture of terror suspects, indefinate detention without trial, extrajudicial killings of US citizens we don’t like, the destruction of the environment for grim capital interests, denying the reality of anthropogenic climate change which endangers every human being and animal on behalf of grim capital interest, support second class status for gays, support death penality, support murdering racist apartheid states like Israel, etc etc.

  40. Dan
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 7:28 am | Permalink

    MrMikesHardCoreSot,

    I dont get offended very easily, and frankly dont give a shit if you want to name call all day long. I just don’t understand the point in it. The nonsensical shit like that and the constant “lols” from worthless commenters dont offend me, they make me wonder why people waste their time with it.

  41. Thom Elliott
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 8:18 am | Permalink

    Not to get involved in Dan’s cringing and worthless side debate, but you said earlier that 95% of the people here agree or have the same ideology? Catagorically not, people tend to come down on their respective sides generally but I don’t have the same ideology as anyone here. There are no Heideggarian philosophers here but me, EOS seems to be the only nihilistic xtian that comments at least, Tatersalad probably is nominally xtian but clearly a deranged sociopath etc, and there is wide disagreement and heated debate generally, particularly amongst the ‘liberals’, which stands to reason as it is a mostly ‘liberal’ site. No one is safe here at markmaynard.com.

  42. anonymous
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    Rep. Brown should have followed Oprah’s lead and used the more palatable term “vajayjay”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/fashion/28vajayjay.html?pagewanted=all

  43. Mr. Y
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    The evidence that EOS offered reminds me of that time, several years ago, when Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a heart surgeon by profession, diagnosed the brain-dead Terri Schiavo via fuzzy video tape, stating she definitively was not in a “persistent vegetative state,” despite what her doctors said. These people will say anything to further their political agenda.

  44. Alan
    Posted June 15, 2012 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

    Thom: “war mongers who support torture of terror suspects, indefinate detention without trial, extrajudicial killings of US citizens we don’t like, the destruction of the environment for grim capital interests, denying the reality of anthropogenic climate change which endangers every human being and animal on behalf of grim capital interest, support second class status for gays, support death penality, support murdering racist apartheid states like Israel, etc etc.”

    ……….. with a tweak or two that would describe Obama & Co.

  45. Posted June 16, 2012 at 10:10 am | Permalink

    I feel slightly guilty that I often read these comments to enjoy Thom Elliot’s intellectual rage. I often leave feeling not only entertained, but smarter, the same way intellectuals get when they’re reminded of what they already knew —

  46. mark k
    Posted June 16, 2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

    “Fortunately, EOS has not political power at all. He is a limp, castrated troll.

    The only place where EOS has anyone to listen to him is on this website.”
    And that is why you are crying, he won. Its too bad liberals like aborting babies so much or this would have never been an issue. I believe that abortion needs to be a womens choice, its just really to bad it had to come to this. Now let get back to the budget and see how many poor folks we can get back to work.

  47. Kristin
    Posted June 16, 2012 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    Michigan looks ridiculous in the national news, too. This I resent almost as much as the loss of my reproductive freedoms.

    http://touch.wonkette.com/wonkette/#!/entry/hero-michigan-rep-frank-foster-identifies-appropriate-words-for-lady,4fdc97fe4b672622b83e67f9

  48. EOS
    Posted June 16, 2012 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    If this law is enacted all women will still be free to reproduce. This law will merely place some restrictions on their ability to kill other humans.

  49. Dan
    Posted June 16, 2012 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

    Killing another human that is a threat to us is our god/texan/constitutional given right

  50. Posted June 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm | Permalink

    thank you Megan

  51. Edward
    Posted June 17, 2012 at 9:00 am | Permalink

    It’s kind of unrelated to the matter at hand, but I saw this quote this morning and felt compelled to share it with EOS.

    http://imgur.com/CYSIu

  52. EOS
    Posted June 17, 2012 at 9:18 am | Permalink

    http://users.binary.net/polycarp/jesus.html
    http://www.konig.org/wc89.htm
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=15&contentID=3145&commInfo=9&topic=The%20Search%20for%20the%20Messiah

  53. EOS
    Posted June 17, 2012 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Except for:

    Cornelius Tactus 55-120 A.D.
    Gaisu Suetonius 69 – 130 A.D.
    Thallus 52 A.D.
    Pliny the Younger or Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus (62-c.115)
    Flavius Josephus 37 – 100 A.D.

  54. EOS
    Posted June 17, 2012 at 12:21 pm | Permalink

    correction

    Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus

  55. Posted June 17, 2012 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    I may as well respond to this one…

    Cornelius Tacitus mentioned Christians, writing c. 116 AD. This is evidence that there were Christians.

    Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus mentioned Chrestus, which was a common name. Scholars debate whether he meant Jesus or not.

    We don’t know what Thallus wrote; his works are lost. A secondary source quotes him about a “great darkness.” There’s no evidence that he mentioned Jesus, or that the darkness referred to the crucifixion.

    Pliny mentioned Christians, writing c. 112 AD. This is evidence that there were Christians.

    The passages in Flavius Josephus are suspected of being later interpolations, but many scholars accept them. That’s probably the best of the lot.

    Obviously, Christianity exists, whether Christ did or not. But early accounts of Christianity are not evidence of a historical Jesus, any more than UFO clubs are evidence for UFOs.

  56. EOS
    Posted June 17, 2012 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    Doug,
    I tried twice to provide links to the exact passages that were written, but the moderator has not allowed them to be posted. Anyone can Google it.

  57. Posted June 17, 2012 at 8:06 pm | Permalink

    EOS — That’s what I did, and that’s what I found.

  58. Posted June 17, 2012 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    Your comment went to the spam folder, EOS. Thanks for letting me know. I went and found it, and now it’s posted… Also, I’m moving this conversation to the front page, so you might want to hold your responses for a moment.

  59. Knox
    Posted June 17, 2012 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

    If you’re in Michigan, please join me in trying to use the word VAGINA as often as possible tomorrow.

  60. Meta
    Posted April 10, 2013 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    Alabama is following our lead, and seeking to do an end run around the constitution in order to effectively end abortion in their state.

    Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley signed a law Tuesday that drastically raises the safety requirements for abortion clinics to operate — a measure that he says “has been endorsed by pro-life groups across America.”

    But Planned Parenthood immediately warned of “an almost certain legal challenge,” saying the new law’s requirements “would be difficult for nearly all providers to meet” and would shut down clinics.

    Bentley, a Republican, hailed the new law.

    “As a physician, and as a governor, I am proud to sign this legislation,” he said in a statement. “This bill provides appropriate standards of care.”

    Doctors who provide abortions must have admitting privileges at local hospitals, the governor’s office said.

    A similar new law in Mississippi has put that state’s only abortion provider “on the verge of closing” because of such an admitting privileges requirement, Planned Parenthood said. That clinic is challenging the Mississippi law in federal court, saying the state would end up banning abortion because the clinic’s doctors haven’t been able to gain the privileges.

    Nikema Williams, vice president of public policy for Planned Parenthood Southeast, said that “medical experts agree that laws requiring admitting privileges for abortion don’t increase health or safety for a woman.

    “They just limit a woman’s access to safe and legal abortion,” Williams said in a statement.

    Read more:
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/politics/alabama-abortion-law

One Trackback

  1. By Keep your hands off MI vagina on June 17, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    […] from the floor of the Michigan House last week, when, in response to a coordinated, all-out Republican assault on women’s reproductive rights, she said, “I’m flattered you’re all so concerned about my vagina. But no means no.” It […]

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