Get rich with Jesus

watch-tower-in-koreanMy friend Gene had this pamphlet wedged into his front door a few days ago. And, as I haven’t ranted about “Jesus wants me to be rich” Christians in a while, I thought that I’d post it here.

I’m not sure how these folks from the Korean church found Gene. They must have looked in the phone book for people with Korean-sounding last names. Either that or they spotted him looking Korean on the street somewhere, and followed him home. Either way, I find it kind of creepy. It’s bad enough to have the prosthelytizers show up on your doorstep, when they just happen to be making their way through your neighborhood. I can’t imagine how freaked out I’d be to know that, for whatever reason, I’d been identified, put on a list, and sought out specifically. And, in this particular case, if I were Gene, I guess I’d be kind of offended on top of it, as they’re kind of implying that presently he’s one of the filthy losers in the bottom right corner of the pamphlet.

Fortunately, no one prosthelytizes in my neighborhood anymore. They’ve given up. I think it’s because there’s no money to be had here. Gene thinks it’s because people here don’t have souls. Either way, it’s alright by me. (We don’t get trick-or-treaters either.)

Anyway, in case you didn’t know, I happen to like quite a bit about religion. I’m not, however, a big fan of people who gravitate toward religion in search of wealth, or sects that advertise that way. It kind of pisses me off, actually. Here, with more on that subject, is a clip from something I wrote a few years ago, after visiting a local mega church.

…If you’ve read this site before, you know that I have my biases against so-called “mega-churches.” From the research that I’ve done, I’ve come to form an opinion of them as relatively shallow and vacuous institutions built, as many successful businesses are, to fill an unmet need in the marketplace. Again, it’s just my opinion, but they seem to primarily commoditize generic religion, market it, and sell it to isolated suburbanites. (”Jesus as drug,” seems to sum it up pretty well.) They sell community. They sell a sense of belonging. They sell moral superiority. And, it appears as though they’ve been wildly successful in the newer suburban (or “exurban,” as some are referring to the more upscale, new communities forming on the most remote edges of suburban America) areas, where there perhaps isn’t an indigenous religious culture/infrastructure already in existence. Again, it’s just my opinion, but it seems to me that they primarily serve the purpose of reinforcing among upper middle class, primarily white Americans, and those who aspire to enter their ranks, that they deserve success, and that Jesus doesn’t want them to feel guilty for what they have, and what they want.

Jan and I went this morning with the purpose of either confirming or denying those, and other, suspicions.

And, before I get into my notes about what we saw, I want to make sure I make it clear that I’m not suggesting that these people not be able to worship as they see fit. That isn’t my intention. I believe in freedom of religion (as well as freedom from religion). I also believe, however, that we have a duty as citizens to educate ourselves, and take preventative measures when they’re called for. In other words, if the mega-church demographic is growing, and if the individuals within these churches are exercising their newly found strength in order to implement laws that curtail the freedoms enjoyed by others, then it’s incumbent upon the rest of us to understand how they’re organizing, and what people are finding so appealing about the vision of America that they’re presenting. Only then can we lay out a course for action that sees viable alternatives created… Clearly, people need to feel as though they belong, and clearly we’ve been doing a damned poor job of it on the American left…

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106 Comments

  1. James Rich
    Posted March 24, 2011 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

    It’s funny you should mention it. Tonight, I was rereading the book of James. Here’s some highlights on the topic. It’s often pointed out that the poor will always be with us. Not so with the rich who, in James’ view, have their days numbered:

    “For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business. ” (1:11)

    He continues with a few choice words on social status and church membership:

    “Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, ‘Here’s a good seat for you,’ but say to the poor man, ‘You stand there’ or ‘Sit on the floor by my feet,’ have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? ” (2:2-6)

    A little later, some not-so-subtle reflections on the fate of the fattened:

    “Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.” (5:1-5)

  2. Edward
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    Maybe you’re looking at the handbill wrong. Maybe the family in the bottom corner is the “after” shot. Maybe the church is encouraging you to live a life of modesty. Maybe they want you to forsake all possessions in order to be closer to God.

  3. Allah Mehr-Kahn
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 8:24 am | Permalink

    Speaking of Jesus, can someone explain:

    http://annarbor.com/news/surprise-vote-on-controversial-30000-parking-study-angers-some-ypsilanti-downtown-development-author/

  4. gary
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 8:30 am | Permalink

    I joined this site hoping to get rich.

    The only thing I ever got was chafed balls.

  5. Posted March 25, 2011 at 8:43 am | Permalink

    I suppose their altruist neighbors to the north are the paragon of Christian righteousness. Good thing for the wicked people in the south that they have the DMZ to keep the saints from marching in.

  6. Gene
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    I like Edward and gary’s comments! Black Jake: south korea is uber christian, the missionaries really did a number there. I’m seeing “Book of Mormon” in nyc this June – glad i got my tix today, considering the review that just came out in the Times.

    Living at my parents’ house, we’d also been targeted. they travel in twos or threes. All of a sudden, a car pulls up, and two white people and a “translator” pile out and head straight for your door – it IS creepy. I tell them my parents aren’t home and that i’m Catholic (it works – don’t ever say “non-believer” – that’s exactly what they want to hear) and they pile back into the car for the next targeted attack. To give credit, this is a Watch Tower/Jehovah’s piece printed in Canada in 2007.

    The saddest thing here is that i never learned Korean, so their individualized approach is lost on me.

  7. Ted
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    Follow the money. Churches are businesses. They don’t make money serving the poor. They make money attracting the successful, and encouraging those already in their congregations to be more successful. Those that become more successful, of course, attribute it to God and the church. Those that don’t just fade away. It’s a perfect scheme.

  8. Ale Roka
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    Ted,

    You’re right churches don’t make money serving the poor, yet many do serve the poor. Small towns, rural areas and inner cities are littered with churches that barely scrape by. According to the U.S. census, clergy have a median income of $27,247 with an average college graduation rate of 74.7% making them among society’s lowest paid college educated workers.

    The clergy I’ve known are doing it out of a sense of mission and work pretty tirelessly on behalf of their congregations and communities. The mega church millionaire pastor is still the exception, not the norm.

  9. Ted
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    Thank you, Ale, for putting things in perspective for me. I’m man enough to admit when I’ve been proven to be an overblown gas bag.

  10. Gene
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 5:09 pm | Permalink

    agreed with ted and ale.

    add’l thoughts: printed marketing material costs money. fold that money into directly helping people, unless it’s a pyramid and you need more people for more money…

    and i also don’t like the fear tactics (join or risk destitution) or the concept that God is an ATM – believe and you will be rewarded, cha-ching.

  11. Gene
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

    couldn’t have said it better myself:
    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-556518

  12. Ale Roka
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

    Ted,

    Maybe a tiny bit overblown, but not unduly inflated. (If you’d put “some” or even “many” in front of “churches” I would’ve quietly agreed.) I do agree that the pattern you identified is real in far too many parishes and is worthy of public scrutiny.

    But, as a baby, I can tell you I hate the bathwater I’m submerged in. It’s a strange and unwelcome baptism. But, I still don’t want to be thrown out with it.

    I’m guessing anyone affiliated with anything can, if they try, empathize.

    Gene, mutual agreement.

  13. Dr. Mistory
    Posted March 25, 2011 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    “south korea is uber christian, the missionaries really did a number there.”

    Yes, although the balance of missionary power is still influx in that geography. Many missionaries did a number on Korea. Korea is now importing Christianity from the west which is supplanting Buddhism which Korea imported from China which China imported from India…

    Christianity, of course, was imported from Europe to America which Europe imported from the middle east…

    At the same time, European Americans are converting to Buddhism…

    Unless we’re all willing to humbly submit to the most ancient records of our equally messy and mixed genetic origins, we should realize religion, like all social phenomenon (for example, “democracy”), is transient, adaptable and a matter of personal, not biological, conviction.

    Even if you try to trace the historic roots of a culture’s religion, you’ll only find the earliest recorded record of religion which, doubtlessly, supplanted an earlier unrecorded religion.

    If I thought I was stuck being an Irish Catholic because my ancestors were (or even a Druid), I might harm myself. I grant myself the right to accept or reject any religion based on my own intellect and impulse. Unless religion is compulsory, no one is doing a number on anyone.

  14. Gene
    Posted March 26, 2011 at 11:33 am | Permalink

    Dr. M. – interesting, i didn’t consider that Korea is now exporting more than they once imported. “compulsory” – the word strikes me – because in many Asian cultures infused with confucius and socialist ideals – there IS something compulsory, implicit in community and national identity.

    Personally, i don’t keep up on this stuff, it’s all too Moonies for me, but found this video interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofLLZn5W1TY

  15. Dr. Mistory
    Posted March 26, 2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink

    Gene,

    It is compelling video, thanks for the link. The compulsory aspect of religion you mention is, to me, foundational to the clash of ideology. By enlarge, the west sees religion as a matter of personal conviction. Others (currently and most obviously, many Islamic states) see religious adherence as fundamental to national loyalty.

    Personally, I don’t see a distinction (as far as imperialism goes), in Christian missionaries versus other humanistic, democratic missionaries. “Believe in a new God” and “You don’t have to believe in the old God” have the same level of cultural intrusion.

    Everyone who believes something and thinks someone else might make a better world by believing it too, is a missionary. (Mark Maynard, for example, is a giant, throbbing, gloriously monumental missionary.)

    Koreans, like us all, are smart people. If they want to be the new Rome, Tibet, Mecca, Jerusalem, Varanasi, Paris or Berkeley, I say go for it. I realize that the whole freedom of personal conviction thing is rather western , but I’m a zealot for freedom of ideas and religious tolerance. I think people everywhere have the intellect and right to believe what they want. Oh shit, sorry Gene, I realize I’m not talking to you anymore but just going on and on to the other voices in my head. I think we agree, religion shouldn’t be compulsory.

  16. EOS
    Posted March 27, 2011 at 6:53 am | Permalink

    The South Koreans now send a large number of missionaries to the U.S. as well as the rest of the world. They bring Bibles and the Gospel to countries where they are executed for doing so and send ten-fold more missionaries to replace those who are killed. Hardly a “Get Rich” scheme.

    The Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul has 7 services each Sunday where 30,000 persons worship simultaneously. It’s the biggest church in the world. They stand in line for hours to get a seat at one of the services.

    That Mega Church in Plymouth that you despise so much does an incredible amount of charitable work both locally and globally. They recently had 4,946 volunteers pack over a million meals and sent them to Haiti, Somalia, and Guatemala.

    Click on the links at the bottom of this page to get a sampling: http://www.northridgechurch.com/Serving/Outreach.aspx

  17. EOS
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 6:46 am | Permalink

    Mark,

    You embrace only parts of the Bible and ridicule the rest. Your criticism of churches that you don’t agree with has an overall effect of turning people away from seeking God. You call yourself a Christian yet seem to know little of the Bible. Did you know that Jesus confirmed the creation account written in Genesis?

    If I wanted to join a church to get a sense of community I wouldn’t attend a mega-church with thousands of members, but one where everybody knows everyone else. One where I would be greeted by name. Do you really think that you get a “sense of belonging” in a large crowd of thousands?

    Real Christians don’t have any sense of “moral superiority”. It is the recognition of moral flaws and sin-filled lives that lead persons to faith. Those who consider themselves morally superior tend to feel that they don’t need a crutch.

    If you consider yourself a Christian, why do you feel the need to organize and “lay out a course of action for viable alternatives” to the faith?

  18. Posted March 28, 2011 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    Who are you, as a Christian, to attempt to quantify anyone else’s faith?

    Are you God?

  19. EOS
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    I see it as defending the faith.

  20. John Galt
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    I want to suggest that we hold a “Sell Your Daughters into Slavery” event at Ypsi’s Freight House when it reopens. I checked with the Bible and it’s alright. Who’s with me? I think it will be great for community building. EOS, do you have daughters? Are they obedient? Do they have “child bearing” hips?

  21. Posted March 28, 2011 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    The faith according to EOS, the all knowing being, conduit to God himself.

    Fortunately, God has saw fit to put this wondrous being right in Ypsilanti Township, to defend us all from heretics, gays and black people.

  22. Phranc
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 7:36 am | Permalink

    EOS,

    Where do you stand on the Stryper issue?

  23. dragon
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    When humans speak for God in terms of rejection or condemnation, we may rest assured that dangerously narrow minds are at work.
    -Rev. Webster “Kit” Howell

  24. EOS
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 9:13 am | Permalink

    Except I never spoke for God, didn’t reject or condemn anyone, nor did I attempt to quantify anyone else’s faith. I was merely asking Mark questions to help my understanding of his previous statements.

  25. Posted March 28, 2011 at 9:29 am | Permalink

    Wow, bullshit.

  26. Kim
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    You never answered about your daughter, EOS. Will there be a minimum bid?

  27. Zebub Beal
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 10:34 am | Permalink

    This is why enrollment is so low at the WalDorf schools:

    “For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.” —Leviticus 20:9

  28. Gene
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 4:40 pm | Permalink

    ugh.
    “the faith?”
    “Except I never spoke for God…”
    It is “a faith” – one of many. And my issue is that the litter that’s left on my doorstep IS speaking for their God.

    If you got a good thing goin’, then let me come to you. Just please stop leaving trash on my doorstep – i don’t want it, don’t need it.

    “consider themselves morally superior…” No, I just have no issues with going to your hell and i never asked anyone to save me. i have lots of crutches, and none of them involve bibles.

    stay away from my home, you’re interrupting my program (Jersey Shore).

  29. Gene
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 4:49 pm | Permalink

    Mark – i think it’s time to post the 3-headed cheetah – I’d like to hear EOS explain itself out of that one.

    Garbage – literally – thrown at my doorstep like a cigarette butt. If you’re gonna make that shit up, at least get a decent art director.

  30. Posted March 28, 2011 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

    I really want to see the 3 headed cheetah.

  31. EOS
    Posted March 28, 2011 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    Yes, let’s see the 3 headed cheetah. And while we’re at it, what is the Styrper issue?

    Gene, I didn’t put a tract on your doorstep and I have nothing to do with any Jehovah Witnesses. There is a huge difference between speaking for God and speaking about God. You are correct in saying that there are many faiths, but there is only one God. It is not important that you (or anyone) have faith, but in whom/(what?) you have faith.

    I get tons of litter at my door every day – pizza coupons, lawn services, sales, political pamphlets, etc., and I throw them all in the garbage. Why does it bother you so much to receive a religious tract at your door? I’m just curious – why is it any different than the other unwanted litter?

  32. Posted March 29, 2011 at 6:33 am | Permalink

    Wow, you’re fucking dumb.

    I hate it when religious people leave shit on my door, knock on my door and generally invade my space because their message promotes ingnorance, is inherently intolerant, bigoted and ultimately exclusionary.

  33. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 6:35 am | Permalink

    That sure was an intolerant, bigoted, and ultimately exclusionary remark you just wrote Peter.

  34. Gene
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 7:19 am | Permalink

    My god is Zeus.

    You’re right, I shouldn’t be upset. There’s no difference between your god, pizza or lawncare – they’re all just services trying to sell me something.

  35. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    What has Zeus done for you? Do you have a particular reason for claiming him as your God?

  36. Posted March 29, 2011 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    I can’t speak for Gene, but Zeus has done wonders in my life.

    And yes, I make no secret of seeking to exclude bigots from my life and the world.

    EOS, have you started investing in those gay-bake ovens yet? I think it could be very profitable for you.

  37. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    O.K. Peter,
    What has Zeus done for you?

  38. Posted March 29, 2011 at 8:04 am | Permalink

    Plenty, he helped me to realize that all religion is myth.

  39. Posted March 29, 2011 at 8:19 am | Permalink

    I’ve been a Christian since I was 19, and I’m still not rich. If someone would translate this thing for me, I sure would appreciate it.

  40. Edward
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    So, EOS, God has to “do something for you” before you can believe in him? Sounds like you’re in that population that Mark was calling out who gravitate toward religion for what it promises to do for them. Why not buy an Anthony Robbins audio course on getting rich though positive attitude instead.

  41. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 8:55 am | Permalink

    Jesus died in my place to pay for my sins so that I can spend an eternity in heaven. I believe because of what He has already done for me and I worship out of gratitude not because it earns any reward.

  42. Posted March 29, 2011 at 8:58 am | Permalink

    And the rest of us burn in hell.

  43. Posted March 29, 2011 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    How do you sleep at night knowing that most humans will suffer for an enternity while you and your ilk happily drink champagne and eat caviar in their exclusive country club in the sky?

  44. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Romans 1:20

  45. Posted March 29, 2011 at 9:16 am | Permalink

    What a joke! Rather than answer the potential moral dilemma right in front of your face, you post some ambiguous nonsense written by assholes like yourself!

    “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

    What the fuck is that?

    You and your bigoted ilk still laugh and dine in your fictional paradise while the rest of the world (MOST of the world) rots for an eternity.

    Personally, I rather burn than have to spend an eternity with sheep like yourself.

  46. Posted March 29, 2011 at 9:50 am | Permalink

    Personally, I rather burn than have to spend an eternity with sheep like yourself.

    So what’s the problem?

  47. Posted March 29, 2011 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    None at all!

  48. Posted March 29, 2011 at 10:30 am | Permalink

    Divine justice 101.

  49. dragon
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 10:33 am | Permalink

    I’ve been a Christian since I was 19

    Did you get sick of bragging about that third place finish at the Special Olympics?

  50. Gene
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    EOS, you are unreasonable and not worth engaging.

    Give me your address and I’ll leave a Zeus pamphlet at your doorstep.

    Easter Bunny and Santa have “done” plenty for me, but i don’t believe in them.

    Give it a thousand more years, and your god will hold as much “truth” as the ancient ones.

    You are so smug and self-assured in “the faith” – THAT’s why these pamphlets upset me so. And they also make me laugh (Mark, 3-headed cheetah, please…).

  51. Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    You’re not far off, dragon. Ran down the street naked, tripping balls, to find my angelic soulmate in Chicago, marry her, and become the next god of my own universe. I didn’t place at all. Did a lot of thinking a couple weeks after that, and became a Christian.

    Still not rich, though. Lost my best friends, social standing and whatnot… I gave away everything I owned to charity, and lived in the same set of clothes for a month. Got no self-righteousness for my efforts, but I did get some serious stank. Got screwed over by my Christian friends, backslid, screwed up some more, never did manage to finish first in anything.

    Thank God it is about grace, or I’d be screwed. Now I get to eat caviar and smoke cigars, and play banjo as Peter Larson burns.

  52. Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:13 am | Permalink

    Black Jake, don’t forget all the infidel whores that you’ll get to bone in heaven!

    If they get out of line, Pimp Jesus will send them back to the flames!

  53. Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    No way man. I’m strictly off women after I die.

  54. dragon
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:15 am | Permalink

    BJ: Not many people have grace.

    dragon: Well, you know, grace is a tough one. I like to think I have a little grace…not as much as you –

    BJ: You can’t have “a little grace.” You either have grace, or you…don’t.

    dragon: O.K., fine, I have…no grace.

    BJ: And you can’t acquire grace.

    dragon: Well, I have no intention of “getting” grace.

    BJ: Grace isn’t something you can pick up at the market.

    dragon (fed up): Alright, alright, look – I don’t have grace, I don’t want grace…I don’t even say grace, O.K.?

  55. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    Gene,
    If you think the Easter Bunny and Santa are as valid as the historical account of Jesus Christ, then you’re right,we don’t have a basis for a reasonable discussion. But if you’d like evidence for why faith in Jesus Christ is reasonable, try reading “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. The author was a legal editor for the Chicago Tribune and he set out to write a book that disputed the claims of Christianity once and for all. But in the process of doing the background investigation for the book, he became a believer. He writes about all the “reasons” he thought intelligent people would reject the claims in the Bible and then interviews experts who showed him why his objections were not valid.

    Dragon,
    Grace is available to everyone. It is undeserved favor. If you woke up on the green side of the grass then you can thank God for His grace. You need grace whether you want it or not.

  56. Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:23 am | Permalink

    Afraid I’m not following you, dragon. I’m not trying to argue you into becoming a Christian.

  57. Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:24 am | Permalink

    You still haven’t addressed Christianity’s belief based apartheid system.

  58. Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Me, or EOS, Peter?

  59. Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    End of Sanity.

  60. Gene
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 11:55 am | Permalink

    EOS: i don’t want nor need evidence. Yes, I place Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa and JC all in the same bucket. That’s my faith, and you have yours.

    Again, my point is don’t bring it to my doorstep.

    Oddly, i sort of don’t believe in you – surely EOS is just Mark trying to stir things up and increase the stickiness of his blog.

  61. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know of any apartheid system. Eternal life is granted to “whosoever believes.” It is an open invitation.

    1Tim2:3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

    You can choose to reject the truth. There is no compulsion.

  62. Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:09 pm | Permalink

    Of course it’s an apartheid system, you moron.

    Heaven isn’t for those who do not believe. Unless belief is so cheap as to be a mere pass given by the uttering of a few words and a secret handshake.

    Are you that fucking dumb?

  63. Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    Your wonderful and loving god is so quick to only grant his goodwill to those that stroke his ego. He’s kind of like Saddam Hussein in this respect.

    Do you have to give him blowjobs in heaven?

  64. Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

    That’s not true. He created Slayer and Motorhead to make your short life here on earth suck less, even though you are a heathen.

  65. Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Thank you, Jesus.

  66. Zebub Beal
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

    EOS = Designated Republican

  67. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    No ZB

    Peter,
    If you can’t believe, pray and ask for the faith to believe. If you are sincere, God will not refuse you. If you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him. If you want to live for an eternity, then surrender this short life to Him. Don’t fight God, it’s a battle you can’t win.

  68. Zebub Beal
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 12:59 pm | Permalink

    This is like Jimmy Falwell going down on Mr. T.

  69. Posted March 29, 2011 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    “If you ____ then you can ______”

    That’s a pretty cheap and commodified faith you have there.

  70. Elf
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 3:44 pm | Permalink

    This blog is sticky, Gene, but that’s just due to the bargain lube mixed with ejaculate and tears.

    As for Zeus, I don’t know what he’s done for me. I do know, however, that God has killed all my ancestors.

  71. Gene
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 6:05 pm | Permalink

    Elf: Nice! Like.

    EOS: please stop with the “the”s – as in “the truth”. You should say “my truth” or “a truth”. it’s gross that you can speak with such certainty – talk about moral superiority. Thank you for pulling this discussion so far from topic.

    any one who wants to leave porn on my doorstep (any kind, except that involving children) – is welcome to do so. but anything else that spouts “THE faith” and “THE truth” is bullshit – save your money and save a tree. your single-mindedness is not welcome on my doorstep, whether in english or korean.

    it’s one thing to have this debate on the internet. it’s entirely offensive to have this conversation on my doorstep. THAT’s my issue.

  72. Posted March 29, 2011 at 6:20 pm | Permalink

    I like pizza coupons. They allow me to get cheap pizza.

  73. EOS
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    Gene,

    We have a fundamentally different worldview. Truth is an absolute. Truth is not relative to time, situation, persons, places or things. Truth is unchanging, constant and without a mixture of error. Absolute truth is a logical necessity. You can’t logically argue against the existence of absolute truth. To argue against something is to establish that a truth exists. You cannot argue against absolute truth unless an absolute truth is the basis of your argument.

  74. Posted March 29, 2011 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

    Firstly, I think EOS gets way more shit than he/she actually deserves.

    Secondly, has anybody actually translated this tract yet? Maybe they’re being figurative. Maybe they mean “rich” in the spiritual sense, or some such. What’s the inside look like? I remember getting a JW tract and thinking the art was pretty cool. It was all about Armageddon, and could have gone into a Megadeth album with all the bombs and mushroom clouds and whatnot. In fact, I complimented the last JW’s that showed up at my house on the art in their tracts. They were the only JW’s that showed up at the place I currently live, and that VERY SAME DAY someone stole my catalytic converter. Coincidence, or is being separated from your catalytic converter some new, watered down (but still annoying) definition of hell? Why would a loving God torture his evil deserving creatures for eternity?? BUT WHY WOULD A LOVING GOD STEAL MY CATALYTIC CONVERTER???

  75. Gene
    Posted March 29, 2011 at 10:47 pm | Permalink

    Peter: I heart pizza.

    Black Jake: I e-mailed mom and dad for a translation, forthcoming within 24.

    EOS: you’re f*cked in the head. truth once was the world was flat. truth was once the sun went round the earth. truth was once that white was might. you’re an idiot – take eight people watching the same event, and they will each walk away with a different TRUTH. obviously, no one can argue against your logic, because your “truth is absolute” – did you really type “moral superiority” – you are a ‘tard.

    my god believes in wonder. my god believes in the unknown. my god allows freedom from absolutes. YOU’re the prisoner. not us.

    whatever. we’ll all meet in the same place. i’ll be the one in the corner, giving away free bj’s…black jake – if you’re really givin’ up chicks in the afterlife, i’ll make it worth your while. i swallow.

    yes, i went there. EOS, you’ve derailed this conversation beyond savior. yup, savior…

    “absolute truth”…who are you? God? Ridiculous. How dare you speak with such certainty. You should try swallowing as well. Trust me, it won’t kill you, and i have yet to be hit by lightening. Bring it.

  76. Posted March 30, 2011 at 5:16 am | Permalink

    “Truth is unchanging, constant and without a mixture of error. Absolute truth is a logical necessity. You can’t logically argue against the existence of absolute truth. To argue against something is to establish that a truth exists. You cannot argue against absolute truth unless an absolute truth is the basis of your argument.”

    In addition to hating gays, blacks and public buses, EOS smokes weed.

  77. Tommy
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 6:22 am | Permalink

    After reading the tail end of this trhead, I need some Absolut! That is the Truth!

  78. EOS
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 7:37 am | Permalink

    Haven’t any of you ever studied logic? Logic is the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning. Logic examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. Logic has been defined as “the tool for distinguishing between the true and the false” and “the science of the most general laws of truth.” To be considered rational, an argument has to be logical.

    So what is the rational basis for the apparent consensus that truth is not absolute? Do you believe that absolutely? If your premise is that my truth is different than your truth how can you possibly object to my assertion that truth is absolute? Do you claim that you are absolutely certain that there is no absolute truth? Are you even able to see your contradictory statements?

  79. Posted March 30, 2011 at 8:10 am | Permalink

    You get more boring by the minute.

  80. EOS
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 8:32 am | Permalink

    Smoking weed does that to me.

  81. Posted March 30, 2011 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    I knew it.

  82. EOS
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 11:01 am | Permalink

    The tract translates, “Do our lives depend on our destiny/faith?” Probably a conversation starter rather than a “Get rich with Jesus” hook. Who knows what they might say at someone’s door?

  83. God
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 11:27 am | Permalink

    I heart Pizza, Porn and Weed…

    EOS – you are fucked in the head. That’s the TRUTH.

    I’m starting to think you and that douche Peter Thomason are one in the same….a lot of self-righteous talk while you’re probably out back bangin’ farm animals.

  84. kjc
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 2:29 pm | Permalink

    it just goes to show how much damage one logic class can do.

  85. Billy LaLonde
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    Holy shit! I WAS created in God’s own image! Pizza, porn, and weed are three of my favorite things too! In this world anyways! I can’t wait for heaven now! Nothing but deep dishes, donkey punches, and ‘dro! Praise the lord!

  86. EOS2
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

    Huh

  87. Eel
    Posted March 30, 2011 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

    Oh, shit! They’re duplicating!

  88. Posted March 31, 2011 at 5:04 am | Permalink

    Is that the logic class at Washtenaw Community College?

    They still offer that, right?

  89. EOS
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 6:24 am | Permalink

    I don’t know, they might offer it at WCC. Those who think ridicule is a valid refutation would really benefit from taking such a course.

  90. Gene
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    My hell on earth would be waking up early on Sundays and sitting next to you. I’ll chance the real thing.

    That’s not ridicule, just my absolute truth.

    You make me yearn for the BCs – the good ol’ days.

  91. Edward
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    It’s difficult for me to acknowledge that you and I, EOS, are believers in the same Jesus Christ.

  92. EOS
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 8:29 am | Permalink

    Ed,
    I sincerely doubt we do.

  93. Edward
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    So, you believe there’s more than one Jesus Christ? That’s interesting.

  94. EOS
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 10:00 am | Permalink

    There’s a good example of a false dichotomy. Logic 101.

  95. Posted March 31, 2011 at 10:41 am | Permalink

    Oh shit, there’s two now? Wasn’t one enough?

  96. Gene
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    EOS: zip it. It’s understandable why the non-believers pile on top of you, but for you to dicker with a fellow believer demonstrates your intolerable and absolute single-mindedness. If you can’t even share your God with another Christian – then what the hell are you doing here? And quit with the logic – not impressive. I think people come to MM.com to hear unique points of view, i’m hear because of the ball shaver. Express your own point of view, please – unless you’re feeding a baby bird, regurgitation is BORING…zip it.

  97. EOS
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

    Gene,

    Every time you post, you exhibit a greater degree of ignorance. If you can’t debate rationally, then YOU should zip it. Trying to silence a person who exposes the shallowness of your arguments is an act of desperation.

    I haven’t written anything about Jesus that isn’t standard, orthodox beliefs, straight from the Bible. If Edward doesn’t agree, then he isn’t worshiping the God of the Bible. And no, it doesn’t mean there are two Gods.

    I share God with everyone, whether they acknowledge Him or not.

  98. Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

    ???? I didn’t realize there was a standard, orthodox belief of anything in the Bible, unless you are talking of Greek Orthodox, or maybe Eastern Orthodox…. perhaps you are talking of the Coptic Orthodox?

    No, you must be speaking of the Antiochian Orthodox.

  99. kjc
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    wtf is wrong with taking logic at wcc? i happen to know those professors. lame stereotyping of community colleges.

  100. Gene
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:28 pm | Permalink

    Blissfully ignorant, no argument there.

    Yes, you are sharing God with everyone – and back to topic: No thank you. Stop sharing, and definitely don’t bring it to my doorstep.

  101. Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Not a damn thing!

    It’s the only one that I know of!

    One class doesn’t make one Kant, that was my point.

    So chill out.

    Cause I went to Washtenaw. Only 1 credit to go and I have my Associates.

  102. Gene
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    UM, WCC, EMU – been to ’em all. And in the order i like them: WCC, EMU, UM. I think the WCC campus is fantastic, took accounting there and have my house because of them too (mortgage class).

  103. kjc
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

    I was just exercising my reading comprehension, wherein EOS potentially taking a logic class at WCC was framed as some kind of slam. In any case, I’ll take the slip as further evidence of how bent out of shape everyone gets over EOS.

    You chill out.

  104. Posted March 31, 2011 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    My apologies, you are right to get bent out of shape over it.

    WCC has gone downhill in recent years, though. It’s too bad. I had a great time when I was there in the early 90’s.

  105. Ms. Pacman's Lover
    Posted March 31, 2011 at 10:16 pm | Permalink

    Wait a minute. There are two Jesuses? Is the other one the guy from the Big Lebowski?

  106. Posted March 31, 2011 at 10:50 pm | Permalink

    There are three Christs, and that’s just in Ypsilanti!

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