Islamic leader killed by FBI in Dearborn shootout

I’d intended to write about the possibility of John Gosselin and Octomom getting a new reality show together, and how it signaled the coming of an apocalypse far more terrifying than anything in that ridiculous new John Cusack movie, but then I read that a member of a radical black Muslim group in Dearborn was killed today by the FBI, and thought that perhaps my time would be better spent looking into that. (I am, however, for what it’s worth, still very much intrigued by the idea that John Gosselin and the Octomom could mate.)

abdullahAccording to a statement released by the FBI, the man who was killed, a Detroit area imam by the name of Luqman Ameen Abdullah (aka Christopher Thomas) was the leader of an organization known as Ummah, or “the brotherhood.” The FBI describes Ummah as, “a group of mostly African-American converts to Islam, which seeks to establish a separate Sharia-law governed state within the United States.”

Federal authorities say that Abdullah, like Malcolm X forty years earlier, also preached that his followers be well armed. The FBI statement goes on to say, “Abdullah has espoused the use of violence against law enforcement, and has trained members of his group in use of firearms and martial arts in anticipation of some type of action against the government.”

Here’s a clip from the Associated Press:

A man described as a leader of a radical Sunni Islam group in the U.S. was fatally shot Wednesday afternoon while resisting arrest and exchanging gunfire with federal agents, authorities said.

Agents at a warehouse in Dearborn were trying to arrest Luqman Ameen Abdullah, 53, on charges that included conspiracy to sell stolen goods and illegal possession and sale of firearms. Ten followers listed in a criminal complaint were also being rounded up in the area.

Abdullah refused to surrender, fired a weapon and was killed by gunfire from agents, FBI spokeswoman Sandra Berchtold said…

No one was charged with terrorism. But Abdullah was “advocating and encouraging his followers to commit violent acts against the United States,” FBI agent Gary Leone said in an affidavit.

“He regularly preaches anti-government and anti-law enforcement rhetoric,” Leone said. “Abdullah and his followers have trained regularly in the use of firearms, and continue to train in martial arts and sword fighting.”

Leone said members of the national group mostly are black and some converted to Islam while in prisons across the United States…

Anyway, I thought that this was worth noting, as it took place in Dearborn, and since I don’t think we’ve had a post before about the black Muslim movement in the United States and how it might be evolving post-9/11. And, I think it’s worth noting that the government is getting aggressive when it comes to going after those they perceive as radicals, regardless of whether or not terrorism charges can be brought. In this case, it looks as though the Feds had been working with informants for a two year period, trying to build a Rico case against Abdullah and his followers.

An interesting side note…. The head of the Ummah is none other than former Black Panther Party Justice Minister H. Rapp Brown. Brown, now known as Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, is currently serving out a life sentence in a Colorado prison for the murder of two police officers in Georgia, in 2000.

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62 Comments

  1. Posted October 28, 2009 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

    People from Abdullah’s mosque also appear to have attacked a photographer from the Detroit News and smashed his camera.

  2. Catch
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 7:31 am | Permalink

    Is it just me, or does it seem as though the Obama administration is doing more to combat radical Islam than Bush’s? There have been three cases that I know of since this summer in which arrests have been made. What’s more, they all sound like strong cases.

  3. Sarah
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 7:32 am | Permalink

    It’s time for the Octomom to graduate from reality television to porn. That’s where all of this is heading, and we know it.

  4. Mr. X
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 7:34 am | Permalink

    Photos-

    http://detnews.com/article/20091028/METRO/910280436/Detroit-mosque-leader-killed-in-FBI-raids

  5. Kevin Trent
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 7:40 am | Permalink

    These men were not a legitimate threat. They may have talked about taking over a portion of the United States and living under Islamic law, but they didn’t have the where-with-all to do anything about it. There were about 15 of them, and they practiced sword fighting, for Christsakes. Still, it’s good to have them off the street.

  6. Money Trail
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 7:44 am | Permalink

    octoporn…sweeeeeeet.

  7. ytown
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    Catch, how can Obama be given the credit for being aggresive when this mosque has been under investigation for two years? Obama was still a freshman congressman from Ill. when this investigation was beginning. Is he THAT powerful?

  8. ytown
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    Kevin, how do you know that these men were not a legitimate threat to our safety?

  9. Ed
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    I’d love to see 25 Gosselin embryos put into the Octomom. The thought makes me absolutely giddy!

    FWIW, I don’t think that the FBI should stop with the Muslims who are stockpiling guns and talking about overthrowing the United States. I think they should go after the right wing groups too.

  10. Oliva
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 8:47 am | Permalink

    I don’t think that the FBI should stop with the Muslims who are stockpiling guns and talking about overthrowing the United States. I think they should go after the right wing groups too.

    Right on. (Not even “groups.” Stray stockpilers too.)

  11. Scott K
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 9:21 am | Permalink

    I was born and raised in Dearborn and my father was a police officer there for 32 years. Why was it worth noting that it was in Dearborn? Because of the high Muslim population or because of its racist past? And I don’t mean this in a defensive way, just curious what made it notable….and Dearborn being racist (at least in the past) is not a stereotype but a fact. My father was one of the officers ordered by Mayor Hubbard to guard the border during the riots in Detroit so that none of “them” crossed over into Dearborn as well as racial profiling a common practice among officers in the 70’s and 80’s.

  12. ytown
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 9:33 am | Permalink

    Dearborn was mentioned because it was a fact, and facts are what need to be reported about newsworthy events. Should they leave out facts such as, he was a Muslim or it was in Dearborn?

  13. Eric
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 9:35 am | Permalink

    Hey ED you and your socialist friend can come TRY to TAKE my Guns….I’m SO sick of you left wing NUTS blamimg all that’s wrong with this country on the Right….Grow Up Boy!

  14. Scott K
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 9:44 am | Permalink

    No not at all. I had no problem with it. Mark said it was worth noting since it happened in Dearborn so I was curious why that was interesting. Although, I do find it very odd that a black muslim movement would be in Dearborn. Never would expect that there. Good for the city that my fathers generation of police officers are retired or otherwise departed.

  15. Kim
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 10:03 am | Permalink

    I think he just meant that it was worth noting as it happen close-by in Dearborn, instead of, say, Los Angeles.

  16. Warren
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 10:24 am | Permalink

    I read with great satifiaction that Dearborn has ceased to be a racist enclave. The fact that violent Muslim terrorists have been welcomed into the city is proof-positive that the bad old days are finally gone and the good people of Dearborn can now live in harmony with all. What right does the Federal Government have to assault the tranquility of Dearborn with automatic weapons that sow death and destruction where none existed before Federal stormtroopers invaded our city?

  17. Posted October 29, 2009 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    Right on. (Not even “groups.” Stray stockpilers too.)

    Uh, I “stockpile” stuff in case of emergency, in case I need it to help myself, my family, and/or my neighbors in some unforseen way. I like guns. It’s not illegal and I’m not preaching about shooting cops or beating up journalists. I like stockpiling stuff. It’s fun for me. Nice to know some of my neighbors want me to be shot by the cops just for not breaking any laws nor hurting anybody. Sheesh.

    How would you like it if you had to live with some constant level of fear of getting your door kicked in and shot even though you weren’t a threat to anybody, and finding out your neighbors were cool with it, because you have differing political beliefs and you’ve been portrayed falsely as a threat so often? I wouldn’t be cool with it if some right wingers busted down your door and shot you for no good reason, just because they considered you a threat to society when you weren’t and hadn’t committed any crimes.

    I can’t believe you said that, frankly. That’s one of the most hateful things I’ve heard said towards me in a long time, and I’d like an apology, Oliva.

  18. Larryy Seven Larry
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    You’d better say you’re sorry, Oliva. He’s got guns.

  19. elviscostello
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Kevin, if they were “not a threat” as you say, then why is it “good to have them off the street”? And BTW, how do YOU know they were not a threat?

  20. Bonedigger
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

    He was one “Smug Monkey.”

  21. kjc
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    oliva, i’m personally insulted too. you should see all the cold medicine i have on hand.

  22. Kevin Trent
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Costello, I didn’t mean that they weren’t a threat to individuals. What I meant was, we didn’t have to worry about them taking over one of our 50 states anytime soon.

  23. Halo
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    What do you mean by that, Bonedigger? It wouldn’t by any chance be a racist thing, would it?

  24. Oliva
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 2:22 pm | Permalink

    Well, here is where we write things absolutely perfectly, accounting for every possibility, thoroughly and meticulously! Not. I did have certain stockpilers in mind who don’t seem sound and are not Muslim, etc. I think Black Jake is not being serious about an apology, but if not: sorry for insulting you by my too sweeping comment (though I didn’t mean to suggest that every stockpiler needs to be arrested or even watched closely, just that their numbers have grown of late, and some of them might not necessarily be of sound mind or so good at regulating their emotions).

    kjc, that cold medicine is dangerous stuff, eh? I have a friend who swigged some Ny-Quil and woke up on his bathroom floor 12 hours later.

  25. Lance
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

    From Time’s blog:

    The raid is striking, on several fronts. Metropolitan Detroit, and particularly one of its suburbs, Dearborn, has one of America’s largest populations of Muslims. Most, however, are of Middle Eastern origin, their families having been drawn here decades ago by relatively well-paying jobs at the region’s auto industry plants. The largely black Nation of Islam was founded in Detroit in the 1930s. There has long been tension between American-born blacks of various faiths, and Muslims in this country.

    http://detroit.blogs.time.com/2009/10/29/michigan-raid-reveals-a-mysterious-islamic-sect/?xid=rss-topstories#ixzz0VM5pbXT8

  26. Posted October 29, 2009 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    Oh, okay, Oliva, all good.

    I actually was genuinely offended, btw. The reason is that I fit the profile on several law enforcement documents regarding possible domestic terrorists (small government guy, Constitutionalist, gun guy, stray stockpiler, Ron Paul fan, militia guy, etc). Anybody else here fit the profile of a potential domestic terrorist on several law enforcement documents?

    Usually I think it’s pretty funny (I’m planning on dressing up as a potential domestic terrorist this Halloween in all my camo militia crap), but I get a little worried when popular sentiment starts seeing us goofball Dale Gribble types as people that need to be seen as threats. It can get stressful, what with the Patriot Act and the Southern Poverty Law Center thinking I’m more evil than Hitler’s abusive nanny and all. Especially when your only crime is making a fool out of yourself with your hobbies.

    It just sucks to have to worry about it.

  27. kjc
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 4:37 pm | Permalink

    hey, at least you’re not an anarchist with a twitter account. they might raid your home.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/6/twitter_crackdown_nyc_activist_arrested_for#at

  28. Posted October 29, 2009 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    When I mentioned Dearborn in the post, it wasn’t due to anything other than the fact that it’s right down the street. I wasn’t aware of a history of racism, but I did know that they have one of the nation’s largest Muslim populations.

    I don’t know that I’ll have time to do it tonight, but I’d like to look more into the historic relations between American black Muslims and Muslims born in the Middle East. I wasn’t aware that there was tension there, and I’d like to know more about it… And it makes me wonder if perhaps it was non-black Muslims who provided the FBI with their information.

  29. Posted October 29, 2009 at 8:44 pm | Permalink

    I would like to read more about that topic when you have time…now, back to sewing costumes for Saturday.

  30. James Madison
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

    It seems clear that officers of the United States government took appropriate action against a group of Insane nutcases who possessed weapons and advocated violence against the lawfully established government of the Country.

    Some other nutcases, probably less dangerous in terms of risk of violence, but very dangerous perhaps in the bankruptcy of their ideas, imagine that the Second Amendment, which I wrote, somehow establishes and protects a right of such dangerous citizens to arm themselves to resist or overthrow the legitimate government.

    H. Rapp Brown and his followers were always crackpot thugs ideologues, not serious revolutionaries.

  31. James Madison
    Posted October 29, 2009 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

    As a very loyal reader of Mark Maynard.com, I had assumed that Mr. Maynard.com had thought the Dearborn, Michigan locale of this law enforcement incident was especially noteworthy because it took place in a town named after Henry Dearborn, my colleague in the Cabinet of President Thomas Jefferson. Henry Dearborn was the Secretary of War.

    As for the more recent history of Dearborn….a fellow who dwells here in Hell with me, Orville Hubbard, tells me in detail about his 30 some year reign as mayor of Dearborn, ending in 1978. Mr. Hubbard openly endorsed Jim Crow segregation in the South, openly stated that no Negroes dare live in his city, openly assigned police to harass Blacks who tried to move into the city. He was, he still brags, very effective at promoting the supremacy of the white race in a northern city. Mr. Hubbard does not understand the connection between his actions as an elected official and his having been cast into the debts of hell. Give him a century or two, and he will likely learn a thing or two….

  32. Posted October 30, 2009 at 1:06 am | Permalink

    I almost feel a little sorry for them… the way the FBI sold them not-stolen property to “fence” and had them repackaging cigarettes to get them on extra charges. I mean, it was even an FBI informant who told the leader that he learned how to make TNT in prison, prompting a lot of the talk about bombs.

    I say almost because they also bragged about murders, beat children with sticks, sold stolen guns, and committed arson and insurance fraud.

    http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/detnews/2009/pdf/1027fbiraid.pdf

  33. Posted October 30, 2009 at 6:52 am | Permalink

    Thanks for the update, Hillary. I was suspecting, sooner or later, we’d hear that there was more to the story.

  34. Fred T
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    My opinion of this whole thing changed when I saw how Abdullah was dressed.

  35. Posted October 30, 2009 at 7:46 am | Permalink

    These particular guys sure seemed to have it coming. Beating people up and swimming in denim and such.

  36. Patriot
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    James –

    The second amendment does give the right to individuals to stockpile weapons to RESIST THE OVERTHROW of our Constitutional Republic and to secure liberty for future generations. I am sure I fit the profile in many aspects (which under Obama now even includes pro-life activities) but this statement should not be construed as having anything to do with support of Muslim terrorism.

  37. Scott K
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 8:11 am | Permalink

    Yes, Mr. Madison what you say about the dishonorable Oriville Hubbard is very true. As a police officer, it was a unwritten rule in Dearborn that if you saw any person in Dearborn pick them up first and ask questions later. The theory being if they’re in Dearborn it can’t be for a good reason. Since Ford supplied the city with vehicles, at one point the police cruisers of choice were Lincoln Town Cars….according to my father they loved being driven to jail in those. And yes, I’m sure my father is sweating it out down below with Mr. Hubbard as well. That was also an era where a police officer didn’t have to go through the police academy if they were in the military, so you had the majority of the force as Vietnam Vets who weren’t always the most mentally stable. Racial profiling was the norm in Dearborn before it became so visible.

  38. Scott K
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 8:12 am | Permalink

    typo…if you seen any person of color in Dearborn

  39. Lori
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    TMZ is reporting that Gosselin is pulling out of the OctoMom project…

    Jon Gosselin is not going to hook up with Octomom for a TV special, because his “spiritual advisors” had a bad feeling about the project.

    No word on what OctoMom’s spiritual advisers think.

  40. Money Trail
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 12:24 pm | Permalink

    You can stockpile whatever you choose…just don’t break the law by dealing in stolen goods, under the silent eye of the FBI for over two years. As far as all the neighbors and others saying how nice they are, and what great people they are…well John Gacy worked as a clown with children. If you want a gun buy, get a permit, carry it. Stock up on all the food medicine and whiskey you want. Just don’t break the law. And when confronted by the fuzz…get a lawyer, don’t come out shooting…or you will most likely die in a painful hail of gunfire. This was only done to cement the hatred in his followers of authority.

  41. James Madison
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    Patriot —
    I assure you that the authors of the second amendment had not intention of permitting anyone to “stockpile” firearms – nobody that is aside from the armed forces of the United States and state militias. Believe me, the original intent did not include stockpiling of weapons by ordinary citizens. I wrote the damn Amendment and it sickens me how its clear meaning has been ignored and distorted.

    And Scott K —

    I’ve looked around and asked about for your father’s whereabouts, and he does not seem to be any where in Hell. So he must have made his peace with the Lord. But that Hubbard guy is a real punk. He hates everyone not exactly like himself.

  42. Patriot
    Posted October 30, 2009 at 5:22 pm | Permalink

    You’re full of shit James and it’s obvious that you (Mark H.) had no part in writing the Bill of Rights. It was the firearms owned by ordinary citizens that established this country and it’s ludicrous to consider that they would quickly establish a government that would prohibit or restrict individual ownership. Not only was it not the original intent, it has never been the law of the land in the entire existence of this country.

  43. Betsy Ross
    Posted October 31, 2009 at 12:13 am | Permalink

    The takeover in Dearborn is well under way – schools bowing to muslim code by eliminating patriotic holidays, mosques teaching hatred, Walmart is ‘making peace’ via Muslim fare, multi-family compounds going up everywhere, rampant overpopulation, etc. All of this taking place in the city that launched American industrialism? The joke’s on us folks. Tell me again why a culture is allowed to be here when the openly stated goal is to take our Country by force?

  44. Posted October 31, 2009 at 9:55 am | Permalink

    I personally know people who target practice with firearms and I also have friends who train in martial arts which includes sword training and they all are considered stand up citizens. so I guess what I want to know is what makes these guys so dangerous and radical. Is it the message that they preach within their own circle or congregation. I thought this was a free country where free people were allowed to express their views no matter how badly we disagreed. I believe law enforcement should have people in place that are sort of netruel to nagotiate the surrender of groups like these instead of going in with their guns blazen.

  45. kjc
    Posted October 31, 2009 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Fuck off, Betsy, you ignorant ass.

  46. Oliva
    Posted October 31, 2009 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    New book from Free Press (Oct. 2009), A Country Called Amreeka: Arab Roots, American Stories by Alia Malek (only hardcover available yet).

    Highly praised; can’t wait to read it. (The author was interviewed on GRITtv. Another bright young author–what a hopeful thing.)

  47. Oliva
    Posted October 31, 2009 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

    (Thank you, kjc. Crude bs from Impostor-Betsy-Ross.)

    Black Jake, thanks for the follow-up. You stretched my head (and in so doing my heart) because I realize that as viscerally threatening as even the mention of guns (and esp. stockpiles of weapons) is to me, you are equally threatened in a different direction, and we are in fact more the same perhaps than different in feeling a threat that feels existential and immediate. (Well, I hope I’m not putting any words in your mouth here.)

    My gun fear is sort of primordial (and I trust it). Growing up, we weren’t even allowed to have those wax guns on Halloween. My mother’s cousin had been shot in the backyard where she lived during a game of “Cowboys and Indians.” The kids were playing with toy guns, and he went in and got a real gun, came out, got killed with it. News stories of this kind tend to stick out for me. (I remember at age five asking my mother how much a gun shot would hurt, as by then I was under the impression that it was how all of us would die from now on.)

    BUT I really do get that there are other perspectives and ways of being, and I can appreciate your outrage at what I thought was an innocent (even righteous!) comment, for having me look again and remember that my automatic reactions are really just mine. (I had been puzzled at your reaction because you wrote as if my comment was aimed at you. But I get it. It was immediately threatening to you, even if not meant for you [I mean, I didn’t know!]. Also, there could be a useful distinction to make between safely stored collections and stockpiles?)

  48. Posted October 31, 2009 at 7:27 pm | Permalink

    I might use “Fuck off, Betsy Ross” as an album title one of these days. I really like it.

  49. James Madison
    Posted October 31, 2009 at 10:57 pm | Permalink

    Patriot, you say I am full of shit and you deny that the identity I say is mine is mine. But your evidence and reasoning for your position is unclearly stated: In my day, patriotism required actual arguments and persuasion — you reduce it to name calling. I find it amusing that you argue with the ghost of a dead ex-president who states his views on a 21st century blog, and you’re unable to actually base your claims on facts rather than emotions. I’ll not deny that the identity you claim as a patriot is real, and you should be that courteous to me as well and reframe from denying my identity. Surely the evidence that I am the ghost of James Madison is equal to the evidence that you are a patriot, since from all I can tell your statements involve mere name calling and a romantic concept of my Second Amendment.

    You’re certain in your belief that the constitution establishes the right of citizens to defend themselves with armed force against the government established by that constitution. Can you, Sir, name a single case in which an American court agreed with your interpretation of the Second Amendment?

    And do you find any discomfort in the fact that your views of the Second Amendment are very similar to both those advocated by the nutcase cop killer H. Rap Brown and his followers and to that mass murderer who destroyed a Federal courthouse in Oklahoma City in 1995? I don’t understand why patriots and cop-killers and mass murderers would share any political beliefs, let alone one that can destroy the rule of law, but you and these two others I’ve named do appear to share a belief in the legitimacy of the use of force against America’s government, either now or at some hypothetical moment in the future.

    This ghost of the Father of the Constitution believes that all true American patriots will unite in the belief that the rule of law, not the use of guns in politics, is a requirement for civilization and democracy. Deny that I am ghost if you like – what do I care about such petty things as personal identities? – but don’t dodge the issue of whether endorse violence within American politics as a possibly preferred alternative to the rule of law. None of the Founding Fathers, the Framers of the Constitution, favored ruling by force instead of law. We had many, many faults, but this was one of them. Civilization is fragile, and it is entirely dependent upon resolving political differences peacefully. Without cherishing that value, we are in risk of losing it.

    And by the way, Patriot, few of the firearms used by the Patriots during the American Revolution were the personal property of the soldiers or militia men.

  50. Posted October 31, 2009 at 11:00 pm | Permalink

    Thanks Oliva! Your understanding makes me feel slightly less crazy for the time being!

  51. Left Cross
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 6:48 am | Permalink

    Is anyone else totally in love with the FBI? They’re so good at “neutralizing” people with crazy ideas and plots and plans. I mean, it’s not like the people have any good reason to be angry in the first place, what with their freedom and all. They should just stay in their place.

  52. Patriot
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    Mark H.,

    There’s no sense trying to carry on a conversation with a delusional nutcase who is suffering from multiple personality disorder. You said, “You’re certain in your belief that the constitution establishes the right of citizens to defend themselves with armed force against the government established by that constitution.” I NEVER SAID THAT AND I DON’T BELIEVE THAT. Despite your smear tactics, Patriots do not share ANY political views with cop killers or mass murderers or terrorists. The Constitution is the rule of law. When current officeholders or judicial members ignore the constitution, or reinterpret it as a means to accomplish the transition to a socialistic system, or any other undesirable form of government, then it is not only the right, but the responsibility and obligation of citizens to throw them out of office or impeach them as necessary. If the current or future regimes resort to police or military force to maintain unconstitutional powers, then citizens are justified in defending their lives, their freedoms, and their constitution by an equivalent and proportionate use of force.
    If you really studied History at all, then you would know that our form of government is not a Democracy. Democracy is the equivalent of mob rule or the imposition of the majority taking away the rights of the minority. We are a constitutional republic, where the imposition of laws is limited by a written constitution not subject to the continual reinterpretation of despots.

  53. kjc
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 9:02 am | Permalink

    “We are a constitutional republic, where the imposition of laws is limited by a written constitution not subject to the continual reinterpretation of despots.”

    huh. somebody slept through the Bush years.

  54. Left Cross
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 9:23 am | Permalink

    Patriot: democracy is a tool, not a system. It comes in many forms, not simply majority-rule decision making. A “Constitutional Republic” is as disgusting an idea as you claim “A Democracy” is. If you’re as concerned about “representatives” in far-flung places becoming despotic, then I suggest opening your mind to the possibility that the system proposed is itself despotic.

  55. Brackinald Achery
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    Right on, Patriot!

    Some other nutcases, probably less dangerous in terms of risk of violence, but very dangerous perhaps in the bankruptcy of their ideas

    So… thoughtcriminals?

    Sigh. Old no-original-sources Higbee strikes again.

  56. Robert
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 4:08 pm | Permalink

    Yes, fuck off, Betsy Ross. We know you didn’t design the first US flag. Your stupid grandson started that myth. The truth is a congressman from New Jersey named Francis Hopkinson did it, and he could kick you and your grandson’s asses.

  57. Robert
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 4:34 pm | Permalink

    “Abdullah has espoused the use of violence against law enforcement, and has trained members of his group in use of firearms and martial arts in anticipation of some type of action against the government.”

    Must have been some pretty crappy training. They only managed to take out a dog before they gave up. I don’t know how much training they did and for how long, but damn, must seem like it was all a big waste of time looking back on it now. I’d want my money back.

    Stockpiling weapons doesn’t make you a threat to a tyrannical government. Having a brain does, and in that sense the vast majority in this country is completely unarmed. Morons can stockpile all the weapons they want, but they will still just be morons…easily manipulated and used as tools to bring about the very thing they think they are meant to resist.

    Having weapons and being an idiot makes you an asset to a tyrannical government, not an obstacle.

  58. Brackinald Achery
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

    Well said, Robert.

  59. James Madison
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 9:16 pm | Permalink

    Patriot argues that “When current officeholders or judicial members ignore the constitution, or reinterpret it as a means to accomplish the transition to a socialistic system, or any other undesirable form of government, then it is not only the right, but the responsibility and obligation of citizens to throw them out of office or impeach them as necessary. If the current or future regimes resort to police or military force to maintain unconstitutional powers, then citizens are justified in defending their lives, their freedoms, and their constitution by an equivalent and proportionate use of force.” All those claims can be supported or disputed with much argumentation, but no evidence to support those propositions can be found in the text of the United States Constitution. Not even in the Second Amendment. And it is most certainly true that Timothy McVeigh and the extremist sect of criminal lead by the former H. Rap Brown both made arguments similar to those made by the Patriot in the words of his I’ve quoted.

    The Constitution is not the rule of law, but it does provide a framework for the rule of law; and the rule of law requires a legal system, of courts and law making bodies. No group of citizens can abrogate on to themselves the powers that must be handled by the courts and the legislatures. To do so is to negate the rule of law and to throw us into savagery.

    Peace be on you, Patriot, and all true patriots as well.

  60. Patriot
    Posted November 1, 2009 at 11:18 pm | Permalink

    Wrong again Higbee.

    In the Constitution –
    “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    In the Declaration of Independence –
    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

    Where is the authority in the Constitution that provides a mechanism for future governments to ignore or disregard any part of the Constitution without using the formal amendment process as specified in the Constitution?

    If Madison had actually believed what you say he did, then he would have had nothing to do with overthrowing British rule and establishing the government of the United States.

  61. Left Cross
    Posted November 2, 2009 at 2:22 am | Permalink

    So, to those of you fighting against “socialism” in the U.S. government, what is it exactly you’re fighting FOR? It’s not enough to tell me something about the preservation of the Constitution, whatever the hell that really means. What are your values, goals, and overall vision of a future society?

  62. Patriot
    Posted November 2, 2009 at 9:14 am | Permalink

    LC-

    To form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. BTW, that form of government that you call a “disgusting idea” is our current government. Go ahead – do a little research and check it out yourself.

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