Abortion doctor George Tiller murdered in Kansas

George Tiller, a doctor in Kansas, was shot to death today while attending church. The investigation is still in its initial stages, but odds are it has something to do with the fact that the doctor was an abortion provider. And folks on the right, based on their Twitter feeds, are ecstatic.

The following, by way of background, comes from John Aravosis at Americablog:

Thank God that the Obama administration caved last month to religious right and GOP demands that it withdraw a new domestic terrorism report that indicated, among other things, that radicals might use abortion as a justification for committing acts of domestic terrorism. Now a man is dead, and an American church has been shot up during services. Which leads to the question as to whether the Obama administration plans to do anything about the terrorist threat posed by religious right extremists, or whether typical Democratic spinelessness will lead us to now ignore this brutal murder, since that is the message that was sent last month, just weeks before this act of terror.

Note that had Obama held firm in the face of the criticism last month, he’d be riding high right now and the GOP would be cowering in shame for having basically enabled this terrorist act. But Democrats rarely look to the future, nor do they see benefit in having a spine or doing what’s right. And now a man is dead…

According to this site advocating for the murder of abortion doctors, Tiller had be shot before. A woman by the name of Rachelle Shannon is currently in prison for shooting him in both arms in 1993.

And, according to the doctor’s Wikipedia entry, he’d also received quite a bit of attention on The O’Reilly Factor over the years. Here’s a clip from Wikipedia:

On Friday, November 3, 2006, Bill O’Reilly featured an exclusive segment on his show, The O’Reilly Factor, saying that he has an “inside source” with official clinic documentation indicating that George Tiller performed late-term abortions to alleviate “temporary depression” in the pregnant woman. According to reporting data provided to the Kansas Board of Healing Arts for the year 1998, all of the post-viable “partial-birth” (dilation and extraction) abortion procedures performed in Kansas during that year were performed because “the attending physician believe[d] that continuing the pregnancy [would] constitute a substantial and irreversible impairment of the patient’s mental function.” Tiller responded to O’Reilly’s statements by demanding an investigation into the “inside source” through which the information was leaked, suggesting that Phill Kline, then the Kansas Attorney General, was responsible. Kline denied the charge…

I’m not defending Tiller, or the practices of his clinic, but one has to wonder to what degree responsibility for today’s murder lies with Bill O’Reilly and politicians on the right who, in order to garner support for themselves and ratings for their programs, continued to accuse Tiller of conducting monstrous late term abortions in violation of the law, and agitate members of the religious right to take action. Those who did not take action, O’Reilly once said, when referring to Tiller and his support of then Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius, would have “blood on their hands.”

Here’s a clip from O’Reilly’s show:

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  1. Posted May 31, 2009 at 8:08 pm | Permalink

    I think I’ve said it before, but I find the idea of abortion reprehensible. And I’m not defending Tiller. I do think, however, some blame for today’s murder lies with those who have been attacking the man for years and accusing him of murder.

    As for abortion, I agree with Bill Clinton when he says that it should be “safe, legal and rare.”

  2. Dirtgrain
    Posted May 31, 2009 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    How many condone such an action? I wonder.

  3. Posted May 31, 2009 at 9:35 pm | Permalink

    Just to clarify, someone who calls himself in favor “life” shot and killed this guy while he was at CHURCH? At church? You shot someone at CHURCH? Oy.

  4. Posted May 31, 2009 at 9:37 pm | Permalink

    I dont even know what to say other than while I strongly disagree with the anti-abortion crowd, not a single person I know who is anti-abortion, even the most passionate among them, would condone such an action.

  5. EOS
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 4:42 am | Permalink

    Mark –

    Folks on the right are NOT ecstatic and the persons who oppose the slaughter of unborn babies are in no way responsible for the murder of Dr. Tiller. The overwhelming majority of tweets from both sides of the abortion issue expressed horror at the assassination of Dr Tiller.

    From CNN’s website:

    Leading anti-abortion groups condemned Sunday’s shooting, emphasizing they wanted to shut down Tiller’s practice by legal means.

    Operation Rescue, which has led numerous demonstrations at Tiller’s clinic, called the shooting as a “cowardly act.” And the National Right to Life Committee, the largest U.S. anti-abortion group, said it “unequivocally condemns any such acts of violence regardless of motivation.”

    “The pro-life movement works to protect the right to life and increase respect for human life,” it said. “The unlawful use of violence is directly contrary to that goal.”

    Your “safe, legal, and rare procedure” occurs 2 million times each year. Since 1993, 5 abortion providers have been killed, while during the same period, 32 million innocent babies have been killed. One killer has been executed, 3 are serving life sentences, and the person responsible for yesterday’s murder is already in custody and will be charged today. Those responsible for the 32 million deaths are still raking in the money – business is booming and legally sanctioned.

    Dr. Tiller was among just three physicians in the nation to perform abortions after 21 weeks of pregnancy, when the fetus is considered viable. Those who speak out against this procedure are in no way responsible for murder – they are trying to prevent it.

    60% of the population oppose abortion and 5 isolated individuals considered it a good idea to kill an abortion provider. It’s a horrible injustice inflicted on this man and his family. I can’t imagine the anguish his family is experiencing now.

  6. Posted June 1, 2009 at 5:26 am | Permalink

    Oh please. Admit that you’re ecstatic over the death of one of your enemies. I am very much against abortion past 12 weeks (if you can’t make up your mind by then, then you just have to live with it) except in cases where the health of the mother or child is in question. However, there is no shortage of evidence that the Bible thumpers could give two shits about the lives of adults, and specifically, the lives of adults who are enemies of said Jesus-freaks.

  7. Posted June 1, 2009 at 6:21 am | Permalink

    Gabriel Winant is focusing on the same thing on Salon…. The Fox News star had compared Tiller to a Nazi, called him a “baby killer,” and warned of “Judgment Day”.

  8. Paw
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 8:48 am | Permalink

    I love the part of the Bible where Jesus, pushed to his breaking point, goes on a bloody killing spree, taking out everyone that he’d disagreed with.

  9. Samson
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 8:50 am | Permalink

    Actually Paw, He sent me to do it.

  10. EOS
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Focus on the Family founder and chairman emeritus James C. Dobson, Ph.D., issued the following statement Sunday on the slaying of late-term abortionist George Tiller:

    “We are shocked by the murder of George Tiller, and we categorically condemn the act of vigilantism and violence that took his life. America has from its foundation respected the rule of law, by which every citizen is guaranteed life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Those constitutional rights are forfeited only when crimes have been committed, and the perpetrator is charged and found guilty by a jury of his or her peers in a court of law.

    “Tiller recently faced serious charges related to the killing of babies in violation of the law, by the most grotesque procedures administered without anesthetics or compassion. We profoundly regretted the outcome of his legal case, believing the doctor had the blood of countless babies on his hands. Nevertheless, he was acquitted by the court and declared “not guilty” in the eyes of the law. That is our system, and we honor it.

    “Our condolences are extended to the Tiller family. The person or persons responsible for his death should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.”

  11. ytown
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 11:34 am | Permalink

    It is disgusting to think dr. tiller performed late term abortions. He, perhaps, is a victim of karma.
    I don’t necessarily feel sorry for dr. tiller, however, i feel sorry for his family and loved ones.

  12. Dirtgrain
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    Eeesh, Ytown. Eeesh.

  13. kjc
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 11:42 am | Permalink

    yeah, that was nice. i don’t think ytown actually believes in karma.

  14. ytown
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    I believe in kharma for you liberal pukes who support the killing of babies. I am not a bible thumper, my visits to church are done twice a year, however, I can’t see how someone who has children can accept abortion as acceptable. You won’t change my mind and I am sure I won’t change yours and that’s just the ways it is.

    dude, no wonder you believe abortion is ok. you can’t have children with your boyfriend.

  15. Dirtgrain
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 11:53 am | Permalink

    Again, eeesh.

  16. EOS
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    What is eeesh?

  17. Early
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

    I abhor musder of any kind but the MSM is slow is teling us the motive for this murder. Is it simply pro-life rage or rather the rage of a parent or grandparent who lost their child,grandchild to Dr. Tiller?

  18. Curt Waugh
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 12:30 pm | Permalink

    Dude and ytown, I’m respectfully asking both of you to refrain from your childish exchange immediately. The markmaynard.com community is committed to discussing important (and, with hope, generally local) issues in a civil, respectful environment – policed by nothing more than the most basic sense of decency. I suppose, however, that train left the station for the two of you boys quite some ago.

    I do not speak for Mark, but I speak with absolute clarify for myself: Every single word you have written today diminishes both of you. The implications of this event are incredibly vast and inconceivably intense. Your boorish and sardonic attacks on each other, partaken in a space freely provide for you by an honestly committed citizen, are unacceptable.

  19. Kristin
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

    I had email from NARAL condemning the incedent this morning, but it was CREDO (my phone service provider) that sent something pointing to Bill O’Reilly. It’s funny, you don’t see pro-choice people gunning down those who impede women’s right to comprehensive health care. Why do the people who are defending the “life” stance slip over the edge? I don’t blame O’Reilly for this nut job murdering a physician, but at what point is this stuff “fire” in a crowded theater? I know. Never. But still.

    “He’s guilty of “Nazi stuff,” said O’Reilly on June 8, 2005; “a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida,” he suggested on March 15, 2006. “This is the kind of stuff happened in Mao’s China, Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s Soviet Union,” said O’Reilly on Nov. 9, 2006.

  20. ytown
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    Curt, I am respectfully asking you to shut up.

  21. Shanster
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    Curt – “…in a civil, respectful environment.”…good one.

    Actually, if you read the about page, you’ll see we’re here to call each other morons. It keeps us grounded. It’s an Ypsitucky thing, you might not understand.

  22. Posted June 1, 2009 at 2:21 pm | Permalink


    I’m haven’t been talking to ytown. I’ll admit, I view EOS as a complete asshole and find it hard to hold back when when she speaks.

    The rest of you I like. At least ytown is funny every once in a while.

    That being said, you are kidding yourself if you believe that there won’t be plenty of sermons on Sunday praising God for exerting his might against a baby killer. I don’t think all Christians are fucked, but there are plenty that are and they make a bad name for the rest of us.

    As for abortion, I find the practice reprehensible. Unfortunately, I find legislating women’s God given right to determine which children to have even more reprehensible.

  23. ytown
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

    I apologize for assuming that you thought abortion was ok if done before 12 weeks. I assumed too much based on this quote ” I am very much against abortion past 12 weeks” .

    Curt, you’re still an idiot.

  24. ytown
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    dude, you ae not talking to me??? Why? Is it something I said? If it is, I’ll say it again.

  25. Meta
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    Gloria Feldt, the former President of Planned Parenthood, has a column on Salon:

    When it comes to decrying Tiller’s unspeakable murder, I want to hear it from Congress. I want to hear it from clergy, the medical profession, the media and civic leaders: “This kind of violation will not be tolerated. Period.” I want to see leaders and people at the grassroots joining hands together in support of those who provide women with reproductive health services, including abortion. I want them to put the yellow armband on, to assume Tiller’s name as so many took on the Obama’s middle name, Hussein, when he was disparaged during the election. Doctors have a special responsibility. David Toub M.D, MBA, who provided abortions when he was a practicing physician in Philadelphia, told me, “This could have been any of us who provide or provided abortion services. I’m just as annoyed by some of my own colleagues and the American Medical Association who marginalized us and even looked down at anyone involved in providing abortion.”

    The silence overall from leaders so far has been deafening, as attorney and longtime Arizona volunteer for reproductive rights causes Leon Silver pointed out. And if our leaders remain silent, I can tell you with perfect assurance what will happen next. There will be more violence.


  26. Posted June 1, 2009 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

    Just for the record, it is possible to find abortion reprehensible and yet not be an asshole about it…. I’m sure this never occurred to the fellow who killed the doctor yesterday, but instead of killing a man, how about donating your time to an organization that does comprehensive sex education, or what about buying a gross of condoms and leaving them out at a local coffee shop? Or how about coaching a girls sports team? Girls who engage in sports, according to research, are less likely to give in to pressure and have early, unwanted, unprotected sex… There are lots of things to do other than murder people.

  27. Posted June 1, 2009 at 5:00 pm | Permalink

    And just to totally fuck this thread up, I should say that guns are for cowards and should be illegal.

  28. Posted June 1, 2009 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    OK, that was mostly a joke… I was just thinking that it would be great to weave in an anti-gun theme, just to really get people pissed. As if abortion in and of itself wasn’t enough… People get really worked up when they think someone’s got plans for their guns and/or wombs.

    It’s weird that the pro-gun group and the pro-choice group don’t overlap more. I’d never really given it much thought, but it seems as though the two would have a lot in common.

  29. kjc
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 5:07 pm | Permalink

    “It’s weird that the pro-gun group and the pro-choice group don’t overlap more.”

    It seems pretty unweird to me.

  30. Dirtgrain
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 5:41 pm | Permalink

    Should the unborn have the right to carry?

  31. Jules
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

    Mark says:
    I think I’ve said it before, but I find the idea of abortion reprehensible. And I’m not defending Tiller. I do think, however, some blame for today’s murder lies with those who have been attacking the man for years and accusing him of murder.
    As for abortion, I agree with Bill Clinton when he says that it should be “safe, legal and rare.”

    I’m curious, Mark. What do you think “the practices” of Dr. Tiller’s clinic are? Because I don’t think there’s anything reprehensible about what he was doing. Here’s some true experiences (http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasntd.html) written by women who had to travel to Kansas for what should be available to them in their own communities, as part of their overall health needs. But instead they’re made to feel ashamed during one of the worst times in their lives. Dr. George Tiller was a fucking hero, to me and to many others. Personally, I’m all for safe and legal but fuck that “rare shit”. Do you know how difficult it is for most women in this country to gain access to a safe, legal abortion? Here in Michigan, if you live north of Saginaw, well, too fucking bad for you. You’re going to have to travel and likely endure the added expense of a night or two in a hotel. Reprehensible means blameworthy. Really? Well, guess you can blame me for the abortion I had when I was fifteen, which saved me from a miserable life, doomed to repeat the mistakes and pass on the legacy of my violent and dysfunctional mother. I have not for one moment of my life regretted that decision, nor am I ashamed of it. It saved my life and enabled me to get away from the craziness of my family and heal myself. I’m one of the majority of women who had an abortion and went on with their life without beating their breasts over the decision they made.

  32. Jules
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 7:13 pm | Permalink

    Not done yet. Mark, you wrote:
    “how about donating your time to an organization that does comprehensive sex education, or what about buying a gross of condoms and leaving them out at a local coffee shop?<
    You can’t possibly be this naive, can you? These are the same people fighting to keep comp. sex ed OUT of the schools and the same people who spread misinformation about the effectiveness of condoms. C’mon, seriously. By the way, would you get worked up if I told you I have plans for your dick?

  33. EOS
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 8:33 pm | Permalink


    I’m sorry for your loss.

    You ask, “What do you think “the practices” of Dr. Tiller’s clinic are?

    He personally aborted 60,000 babies and made a million dollars a year doing it. Still, he didn’t deserve to be killed before he had every opportunity to seek forgiveness.

    There’s no act so heinous that it’s beyond the reach of God’s grace. There is no sin too big that God cannot forgive it. When Jesus died on the cross, He died to pay the penalty for all of the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2). When a person places their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, all their sins are forgiven. That includes past, present, and future, big or small. It is not the size of the sin that is the determining factor here; it is the size of our God.

    No one can ever be so bad that they are beyond the reach of God’s grace, nor so good that they’re beyond the need for God’s grace. Lay your burdens down at the foot of the cross.

    Even persons like Dude can be forgiven – hard as that is to comprehend. :-)

  34. Posted June 1, 2009 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Plans for my dick?

    Hmmm…. Yeah, I guess that would be terrible if women had plans for my dick. I’d be outraged. Etc.

    Seriously, though, I do think abortion should be rare. And, by that, I don’t mean that women should be turned away. I mean that people should be given the information necessary prior to having sex to help them make good decisions. With that said, I do think that they should be available to those who need them.

    And, yeah, I was being kind of sarcastic when I suggested that instead of killing people they volunteer to teach sex ed. Sorry if that didn’t come through.

  35. Posted June 1, 2009 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

    I think abortions should be rare too but mostly because from what I understand they are somewhat painful and certainly more of a hassle than not getting pregnant in the first place. But for any woman who is pregnant and doesnt want to be, legal abortions are a godsend.

  36. Jules
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

    EOS, I’ll only respond once to you about this. It wasn’t my loss, it was my gain. Shove your pity up your ass along with your cross. And you are dead wrong about Dr. Tiller. But I’m not going to argue about it with a religious idiot. To quote Al Franken quoting Barbara Bush, I’m done with you.

  37. Jules
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

    Mark, I didn’t misunderstand what you meant by rare. I just disagree with it. As long as women have the ability to get knocked up, there will be unwanted pregnancies. Period. You can have all the sex ed in the world and there will still be accidents, regrets, dumb decisions, etc. Rare means some woman, somewhere is having a kid she doesn’t want, can’t afford and all the other various reasons women choose to abort.
    Also, apologies to Linette for talkin’ trash about her man’s manly asset ; )

  38. Brackinald Achery
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 9:18 pm | Permalink

    Sorry Mark, I got here as soon as I could.

    Guns… uh… oh yeah: this is obviously a false news story because it is illegal to carry a gun into church without the permission of the pastor. Therefore, he could not have possibly shot the guy, thanks to gun laws.

    Also, because of the Palestinian/Israel conflict, gay marriage should be a capital punishment.

  39. Brackinald Achery
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

    Now that I think about it, it occurs to me that our current humane and usual penal system does de facto punish criminals with mandatory gay marriage.

  40. Ol' E Cross
    Posted June 1, 2009 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

    This was a much longer post. Here’s what’s left. The thing I find most interesting is the stupid Clinton logic Mark expressed and I’m equally attracted to:

    “I find child molestation to be reprehensible. Therefore, I think child molestation should be ‘safe, legal and rare.'”

    This isn’t an easy issue. I’ll leave it at that, for now.

  41. Patrick
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 12:43 am | Permalink

    Jules wrote,
    “It saved my life and enabled me to get away from the craziness of my family and heal myself.”
    “Shove your pity up your ass along with your cross.”

    Mark, I think your website is malfunctioning. Those two statements could not have been written by the same person. One is written by a lady who has finally gotten her life together and healed herself after she got free of her oppressive family. The other is written by a black and blue-breasted, angst-ridden girl still running away from herself. Or maybe she has just seen Harvey Keitel’s “Bad Lieutneant” one too many times. Give the one lady a medal, Mark, and send the other to some therapy.
    I am just speaking for myself here, but the reason I would like for abortions to be rare is that abortions are killing babies, and I like babies. That doesn’t mean I have anything against the mothers. In fact, I like them, too.
    Of course, the lawyers will tell you that in some cases, homocide is “justifiable”, such as in the case of self defense. I am not a lawyer, so I won’t argue that.
    In fact, I would just point all of you liberal types to George Bush’s speech a few days ago concerning his reaction to the September 11 attacks. He said the first thing he did was to ask “what was legal”. Ladies and gents, if the first thing you do when faced with a crisis is to ask what is legal, you are running a serious risk of institutionalizing evil. Many, many disgusting things have been legal, and if you have spent some time in court, you’ll know that a very good lawyer can fix almost any problem you have. Thus, George Bush institutionalized torture, and his team of highly qualified attorneys made it legal in the good ‘ol you know which country.
    The rarity of abortion should not come from laws but from people who are willing to help whenever women and men (their fellow humans: my apologies for all the Bible school corniness of that idea) make “dumb decisions” (Jules’ terminology, not mine).
    Jules, since you refuse condolences, I would just say that I wish that I could have been there to help you with your child, your mother, your whole crazy family, whatever. I am very sad about these kinds of posts.
    We have not really even met, Jules, but for some reason I like you already. Maybe it is beacuse I think you don’t really believe half of the stuff you write.

    Jules also wrote, ” As long as women have the ability to get knocked up…”
    Hmmm. There are a few East African countries where it is traditional, and of course, legal to sew the little thing up. Are you suggesting you have found a solution that we in the “Developed” World have not considered?

  42. Posted June 2, 2009 at 2:27 am | Permalink

    Um. ok, but lets be real here. Almost all abortions occur in the first trimester before the fetus is anything close to being a baby. It is a mass of cells with no brain function or any kind of ability to exist apart from its mother. I just can’t bring myself to value a mass of cells over a living breathing adult woman who should have every legal right to make decisions about her own body.

    Late term abortions are something different I will grant you. But those occur very rarely and are almost always medically indicated. Women who have late term abortions intended to complete the pregnancy but then something went wrong. Either the fetus is so ill that it is unlikely to be born alive and is causing the mother’s health to suffer or the mother herself is ill and must terminate the pregnancy in order to save her own life. Did you know that if a pregnant woman is diagnosed with cancer, she cannot receive chemo therapy if she is pregnant. Delaying that sort of treatment seriously risks her life. To deny someone in that situation the right to choose her own life is quite frankly not anything I would call “pro-life” and everything I would call “anti-woman”

  43. Patrick
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 2:52 am | Permalink

    ” I just can’t bring myself to value a mass of cells over a living breathing adult woman who should have every legal right to make decisions about her own body.”
    Good Lord. I din’t say kill the woman to save “the mass of cells”.
    Let’s be real, then. I am all for it. But you check the statistics. How many healthy, middle class women have abortions after they already have several kids, not because they are desperate girls struggling with their oppressive, abusive, parents and all that, but because they just bobbed when they should have weaved and got knocked up. Save those masses of cells, at least.
    I am not denying that there are girls who think they have no choice but to pay some doctor to stop the mass of cells, but weren’t we talking about rarity?

  44. Patrick
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 2:58 am | Permalink

    Besides, Lynne. If you get pregnant and don’t want it, I am going to take care of your baby. We settled that in the last abortion thread. Don’t you forget, now.

  45. kjc
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Hmm, I thought Jules sounded like a woman, not like an angsty teenager in any way. And I figure she does mean what she writes. But then I’m not a guy so I can’t see this stuff so clearly.

  46. EOS
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 7:24 am | Permalink

    Lynne –

    You say that late term abortions are almost always medically indicated. Really? If a viable fetus puts the health of the mother in danger, then the appropriate medical treatment is an emergency c-section, not an abortion. It’s much faster and safer for the mother. When Dr. Johnson, the director of U of M Ob-Gyn testified before the Supreme Court concerning partial birth abortion, he could not give a single condition that would necessitate an abortion to save the life of the mother. Doctors always use the term “health of the mother” which may very well mean that a woman might suffer from depression if required to maintain her pregnancy, which then, in their mind, necessitates destroying the baby.

    Do you really think there is no brain function during the first trimester? The brain and spinal cord begins to form at 4 weeks. The heart begins to beat and the blood circulates at 5 weeks. By 10 weeks growth of brain cells is exponential, with 1/4 million neurons formed every minute. Just a mass of cells? Don’t fool yourself. The baby is human and alive and there’s absolutely no scientific evidence to the contrary.

    God knit you together in your mother’s womb and He knew your name before you were born and He knows the number of hairs on your head. Every child is a gift from God.

    Jules –

    For someone who has no regrets, you certainly have a significant emotional response even today.

  47. kjc
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 7:27 am | Permalink

    “For someone who has no regrets, you certainly have a significant emotional response even today.”

    gasp! you must be noting that healed lady/angsty teenager quality dichotomy so often seen in women who’ve been through some shit.

    god do i hate abortion threads. makes ypsitucky seem interesting.

  48. Posted June 2, 2009 at 7:42 am | Permalink

    I have been reading a multitude of posts from “Pro-life Christians” praising Scott Roeder as a hero.

    I enjoyed how a number of pro-life folks attempted to do some serious damage control almost the second that Tiller was killed, claiming that they did not support the killing of a human, yet the vast number of posts supporting his killing, with some suggesting that Roeder should be freed to kill more doctors who perform abortions, entirely belying this claim.

    I respect people who dislike the practice and the opinions of people against its legality, however, the extreme stupidity of a large portion are really only two steps from the Taliban, if you ask me.

    This is only one example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×5762069

  49. Jules
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 7:54 am | Permalink

    Thank you for the free psychoanalysis, Patrick. That was cute. You’re right about one thing, you would probably like me if you met me. I’m a nice person. But you’re wrong about everything else. Look, I love men, I’m married to one. But it is the rare male that really GETS that abortion can mean survival for a woman. Many different kinds of survival. An unwanted pregnancy can bring misery for so many reasons but I’m not going to enumerate them here. You think that women who are facing such circumstances just need a hero, you wish you could have “been there” for me. How nice. If wishes were horses, than beggars would ride. Magical thinking, my dear, is one reason people such as yourself will never get it and and the reason why I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
    Patrick wrote:
    >>Hmmm. There are a few East African countries where it is traditional, and of course, legal to sew the little thing up. Are you suggesting you have found a solution that we in the “Developed” World have not considered?<>Besides, Lynne. If you get pregnant and don’t want it, I am going to take care of your baby. We settled that in the last abortion thread. Don’t you forget, now.<<
    Wow. Lynne, watch out for Patrick. That sounds more like a threat than a favor.

  50. Jules
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 8:00 am | Permalink

    Oops! The last part of the above post should read like this.
    >>Jules also wrote, ” As long as women have the ability to get knocked up…”
    Hmmm. There are a few East African countries where it is traditional, and of course, legal to sew the little thing up. Are you suggesting you have found a solution that we in the “Developed” World have not considered?<>Besides, Lynne. If you get pregnant and don’t want it, I am going to take care of your baby. We settled that in the last abortion thread. Don’t you forget, now.<<
    Wow. Lynne, watch out for Patrick. That sounds more like a threat than a favor.

  51. Jules
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 8:01 am | Permalink

    Curses on no editing feature!!!!!!

  52. Jules
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 8:05 am | Permalink

    Thanks, kjc. You’re spot on. But some people think we wimmins’ need protectin’ from ourselves : )

  53. Shanster
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 8:31 am | Permalink

    Jules- How is it a threat that Patrick offers to eliminate several items from the problem side if Lynne ever faced such a decision? There are so many different angles in the argument, but one is: “If you care so much about babies, then put your money where your mouth is.” Someone offers to, then gets piled on from another side of the argument. My question is not rhetorical, I really want to understand why it’s a ‘threat’.

  54. Posted June 2, 2009 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    I really don’t see that many pro-lifers stepping up to adopt children. Maybe they are there, but they only seem to adopt white kids. Black male children are still the most unpopular choice for adoption.

  55. Von
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 8:34 am | Permalink

    I think the beef is that you killed an innocent human that needed your protecting just to keep your life from being more difficult, Jules.

  56. Jules
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Shanster, I’m skeptical that you “really want to understand”. But here goes. When someone suggests sewing up women’s “little things” as a solution to abortion and then follows up with a creepy “I’ll take care of your unwanted baby”, it skeeves me out. I’m not familiar with the previous thread Patrick was talking about but unless Lynne had an agreement to do such a thing, yeah, I think that’s kinda threatening. I was half-joking but I’ll own it. His previous statement about the sewing thing was fucking malevolant and misogynistic, even though he seemed to think is was amusing. You’re free not to find it disgusting but I certainly did.

  57. Jules
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 11:58 am | Permalink

    Gee, Von, thank you for your opinion about the choice I made when I was a fifteen year old girl. I’m glad you weren’t on the Supreme Court when Roe vs Wade was decided and really don’t give a shit what you think about decisions I made with MY life 35 years ago. You can take your beef and cook it up and eat it.

  58. Posted June 2, 2009 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

    “I think the beef is that you killed an innocent human that needed your protecting just to keep your life from being more difficult, Jules.”

    No one is innocent.

  59. Shanster
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Thanks, Jules, despite your skepticism. I didn’t see the connection between the sewing and the ‘taking care of’ statement. If it had come from a random neutral pro-life person without snarky, malevolent, or misogynistic remarks would it be non-threatening?

  60. Posted June 2, 2009 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    In cases of unwanted pregnancy, I believe we should abort the father.

  61. Posted June 2, 2009 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

    Seriously though, it’s so disheartening to read all of this. Most people appear to have just taken up ideological sides and dug in, prepared for nothing but a fight. If it is just going to be a fight, I can already tell you which side will ultimately “win.” And I can also assure you that what really happens is that we all lose, because we lose our humanity.

    What is so desperately lacking from all of this is genuine expressions of compassion and love for one another. I see a little of it in some of the statements here, but nowhere near enough.

    I suppose everyone’s defense mechanisms are running full tilt when we get into an issue like this. I know mine are, and thus you get my previous comment which suggests an indifference, a sarcasm and a hostility.

    There is also a certain amount of truth to everything everyone has said here, as well as a certain amount avoidance and self-delusion.

    As long as there are aspects to things about ourselves, or our positions, that we won’t look at or consider honestly, we are doomed to do nothing but fight it out against each other. And a fight in this matter will continue to leave us nothing but casualties. There will be no resolution, and no peace.

    Only love, and in a massive amount could remedy this situation – this conflict…amounts that are hard for me to even imagine at this point.

  62. Posted June 2, 2009 at 5:35 pm | Permalink

    Heh. I dont think Patrick has to worry. I have never been pregnant and never will be pregnant.

    Anyways, I dont have the energy to argue about this anymore today especially since I know that no one’s minds are going to be changed. Plus it is hard for me to talk about abortion in a respectful way because I dont feel it is possible to be anti-abortion and be respectful of women. Deep down, I think that people who are against legal abortion are bad people which I suppose makes me somewhat like people who think that women who have abortions are bad people in that I have an inability to look past the position on this issue.

  63. kjc
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 6:00 pm | Permalink

    “There is also a certain amount of truth to everything everyone has said here, as well as a certain amount avoidance and self-delusion.”

    Sure, I guess that’s one way of describing human subjectivity. It’s so unavoidable as to be no particular critique at all. Your take– “this makes me so sad, we gotta love each other, it’s all ideology, there’s something better than fighting it out, no one has compassion, etc”–expresses your own particular subject position.

  64. Mark H.
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

    Ani DeFranco has a great song, called perhaps “Birmingham,” that describes with deep emotion and feeling the killing of another doctor for doing abortions, and all the wrongs and fears that the attacks on the freedom to choose has produced. Been thinking of that song a lot these couple of days.

  65. Mark H.
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

    Until the 19th century, in Anglo-American culture it was not argued that terminating an early pregnancy was killing of an infant. Indeed, until the “quickening” – roughly when the woman can feel the kicking – the developing child was thought to not possess a soul. But at the quickening, the soul was thought to enter the child. Significantly, ending abortion was not illegal and not much frowned upon until the middle of the 19th century, and the move to criminalize it was NOT based on claims that abortion equaled killing of a child. Rather, it was argued that abortions were allowing women to have illicit sexual pleasure without having to bear the punishment of sin — that is, an illegitimate child. Only much later was the prohibition of abortion by law defended on what we’d today recognize as the “right to life” ideological point of view. Not saying which is true or correct, just saying what the history was.

  66. Dobrowski
    Posted June 2, 2009 at 10:28 pm | Permalink

    Man convicted of killing late term abortion Doctor forced to watch endless hours of John and Kate Plus Eight!

  67. Shanster
    Posted June 3, 2009 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    Mark H.-
    I’m surprised at the information you presented regarding pre-19th century opinion. The Roman Catholic church argued about the moment of ensoulment from the first century. The idea of ensoulment at quickening was held by some, and even some popes, but the majorityof the church leaders still held to the apostolic teaching in the Didache, and most popes affirmed that ensoulment was at conception. Now that’s just Roman Catholics.

    The major reformers (Luther and Calvin) also placed ensoulment at conception (15th century).

    Certainly Anglo-American culture was heavily influenced by both of these, so I’d ask for some support for your claims that it was not considered “killing an infant” and “not much frowned upon.”

    But I can easily accept that the Anglo-American move to criminalize the act was based on reducing extra-marital sex, since our Puritan ancestors consistently tried to make laws that made sinning difficult (like blue laws).

  68. Jill
    Posted June 3, 2009 at 5:37 am | Permalink

    I think it’s important to remember that Dr. Tiller was an ob/gyn. He did more than *just* perform abortions. He was a good doctor. Period.

  69. EOS
    Posted June 3, 2009 at 6:50 am | Permalink

    Good doctors don’t intentionally kill half their patients. Most doctors take an oath, “First, do no harm.” Period.

  70. Posted June 3, 2009 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    While true, that’s only part of the story. No cancer treatment comes with out harm. Treatment decisions always face a balance between risks and potential benefits. Surgery puts patients at high risk for infections which may threaten life. Radiation treatments put patients at high risk for other cancers in addition to pharmaceutical treatments which deplete a persons immune system putting them at high risk for infectious attack. Have you ever seen someone go through chemo?

    If a woman with three children at home becomes diagnosed with malignant metastatic breast cancer in her 20th week of pregnancy the decision might have to be made of whether to treat the mother and potentially save her life while putting the unborn fetus at extreme risk for death (or worse) or do nothing and watch both die and leave 3 children without a mother. Somehow, I believe that the living children who need a mother at home take a much higher priority than the unborn child. Don’t ask me why I think that.

    My point is, while it is true to strive for “Do no harm”, I don’t think that any decision is that cut and dry. Perhaps they should change the statement to “Do such that the least amount of potential harmis caused” but I’m guessing that a statement such as that would be far to gray for most people.

  71. bimmerella
    Posted June 5, 2009 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Look, no one can argue that Dr. Tiller was alive and therefore indeed murdered. Not everyone believes that abortion is murder, in fact most Americans believe that it should be a woman’s choice. What I find ironic is that most of these people who are sympathetic to the person that murdered Dr. Tiller need a reality check, because they are just as guilty of being sympathetic to terrorism as those Muslims (I’m not saying all, just the ones that were doing it) running in the streets burning the American flag celebrating the terrorist attacks of 9/11 that killed 3000 people. Just another good reason to be agnostic in my honest opinion.

  72. Shanster
    Posted June 6, 2009 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    You posted a few days ago that you’re surprised that womb- and gun-owners have some common ground for alliance. I think Right to Die and Right to Life should get together: really it comes down to self determination.

  73. amused1
    Posted June 6, 2009 at 8:17 am | Permalink

    I didn’t realize the Hippocratic oath was part of the Christian values system. I wonder how Apollo feels about this? Not that it matters since recent studies in medical ethics state the actual phrase “First, do no harm.” was not used until the late 17th or early 18th century. Perhaps you are thinking of a similar phrase “to abstain from doing harm”?

    Moving on, when considering the motto it might be helpful to also review the Hippocratic Corpus for the phrase “have two special objects in view with regard to disease, namely, to do good or to do no harm”. The use of the word “or” seems to imply a choice to be made given the circumstance and experience of the parties involved. Those wacky ancients seem to have figured out that sometimes you can’t have it both ways.

  74. Patrick
    Posted June 8, 2009 at 12:05 am | Permalink

    Jules wrote, “I’m not familiar with the previous thread Patrick was talking about but unless Lynne had an agreement to do such a thing, yeah, I think that’s kinda threatening. I was half-joking but I’ll own it.”

    I have had a bacteria eating at what little is left of my brain for the past several days. When I was convalescent, it got hot there in my little skull, and something broke loose, which facilitated some thinking about this little abortion thread.
    First of all, I thought it would be a good idea to apologize to Jules for what seem like really judgemental posts from me. I did not mean it that way at all. I think that if you still feel you had a good reason for an abortion, then I guess you must be right. I can’t possibly know your conscience.
    The thing about Lynne and her “unwanted baby” was just a joke. A bad one, but still…I apologize to Lynne, too.
    I have noticed that polls recently suggest that a majority of perons in the US now consider themselves “Pro-Life”. Wonder why that is.
    I have a neighbor who has a three year old who is the result of an unintended pregnancy. When people ask her about the father, it is really interesting to see her shrug and say, “I just got drunk at a party one night.” Not funny really, but interesting. The kid is perfectly healthy, bright, athletic, attractive, and avails his little self of the best free compulsory school system on earth, access to the best medical community anywhere, has an opportunity to do anything with his life that he wants.
    In short, he is alive. Deceased children cannot do those things. They don’t win medals at the Olympics, they don’t earn Nobel Prizes for Physics, they don’t write the Great American Novel or find cures for Leukemia. They don’t play in Punk Rock bands or any of that cool stuff that living humans can do. In the land of opportunity, they have absolutley no opportunity. Now why would a reasonable person not want that situation to be rare?
    Jules, you say that it is “cute” that I offer you help and that I think you needed a “hero”. But then, you call Dr. Tiller a “fucking hero”? What could be the difference in a fucking hero and just a plain old type of hero.
    Don’t answer that, because it does not matter to me anyway. If you are in need of help, it is just natural for someone to offer. I was not there. It’s over.
    The statistics also show that the number of abortions is coming down in this country. Some people would thank God for that. I thank the mothers.

  75. bimmerella
    Posted June 10, 2009 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

    I think your “opinion” on abortions or what mother’s go through is about as laughable as me (a woman) describing what it feels like to get kicked in the balls. Point is, you will NEVER be faced with being stuck with an unwanted pregnancy, EVER. So, yeah, it’s actually hilarious and incredibly ignorant of you to think you might have an enlightened opinion on this matter.

    Having said this, I’m going to add that maybe instead of adding to the ever expanding population of this planet another artist, or punk rocker, doctor poet, axe murderer, rapist, ditch digger or whatever, the FACT is this planet has only enough resources to support 8 billion people. We are currently at 6.5 billion, so I am going to go ahead and say that reproducing, may actually deprive the world of more than it gives it. Maybe we should focus on Quality and not quantity. Also, if the number of abortions is coming down, then that means people are practicing safe sex…that is good for everyone.

    If you don’t agree with abortion, then don’t get one. PERIOD. If you don’t want women to get abortions, then don’t impregnate them, that’s about all you can do to help that matter. If every guy did this, the abortion issue would go away. I know it’s not satisfying, knowing that you really don’t have a say in this matter, knowing that you are powerless to butt into peoples lives and pass judgment, but the sooner you accept it, the sooner you can move on from passing judgment on women who have faced issues you will never face nor understand, to something a little more satisfying for yourself, and in the realm of possibilities for you, like Erectile dysfunction, or prostate cancer, and then there’s always helping your fellow man to do their part to stop abortions by NOT impregnating women unless they both agree to wanting a child. That’s what you can do Pat. Not quite as fun as passing judgment I know, but it’s something REAL that you can do and not just smoke blowing bullshit!

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  1. By Anti-government violence in Texas on February 18, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    […] but how they get all up in arms when the same label is used against their party faithful, like the man who recently murdered abortion doctor George Tiller, when they use violence to bring about political change… which, to me, seems the very […]

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