Among those killed last night in the crash of flight 3407, was Beverly Eckert, a well known figure in the 9/11 Truth movement. Eckert, who had lost her husband of 34 years, Sean, in the World Trade Center attacks on September 11, was a vocal critic of the Bush administration’s investigation into the events of that day. Eckert, as you might remember, was one of the few family members of those killed not to accept the huge financial settlement offered by the government in the wake of the tragedy, opting instead to work through the courts. Here is her statement, as published in December 2003, in USA Today:
I’ve chosen to go to court rather than accept a payoff from the 9/11 victims compensation fund. Instead, I want to know what went so wrong with our intelligence and security systems that a band of religious fanatics was able to turn four U.S passenger jets into an enemy force, attack our cities and kill 3,000 civilians with terrifying ease. I want to know why two 110-story skyscrapers collapsed in less than two hours and why escape and rescue options were so limited.
I am suing because unlike other investigative avenues, including congressional hearings and the 9/11 commission, my lawsuit requires all testimony be given under oath and fully uses powers to compel evidence.
The victims fund was not created in a spirit of compassion. Rather, it was a tacit acknowledgement by Congress that it tampered with our civil justice system in an unprecedented way. Lawmakers capped the liability of the airlines at the behest of lobbyists who descended on Washington while the Sept. 11 fires still smoldered.
And this liability cap protects not just the airlines, but also World Trade Center builders, safety engineers and other defendants.
The caps on liability have consequences for those who want to sue to shed light on the mistakes of 9/11. It means the playing field is tilted steeply in favor of those who need to be held accountable. With the financial consequences other than insurance proceeds removed, there is no incentive for those whose negligence contributed to the death toll to acknowledge their failings or implement reforms. They can afford to deny culpability and play a waiting game.
By suing, I’ve forfeited the “$1.8 million average award” for a death claim I could have collected under the fund. Nor do I have any illusions about winning money in my suit. What I do know is I owe it to my husband, whose death I believe could have been avoided, to see that all of those responsible are held accountable. If we don’t get answers to what went wrong, there will be a next time. And instead of 3,000 dead, it will be 10,000. What will Congress do then?
So I say to Congress, big business and everyone who conspired to divert attention from government and private-sector failures: My husband’s life was priceless, and I will not let his death be meaningless. My silence cannot be bought.
Still very much active in the movement to determine what really happened and hold those responsible accountable, she had apparently met with President Obama just last week.
Unfortunately, there will be some who believe that this terrible crash, which claimed the lives of not just Eckert, but 49 others, is somehow connected to her 9/11-related work. There are already threads popping up on the internet suggesting as much. I suppose it could be true, but I think it’s highly unlikely. I feel, however, that the government does deserve some blame – not for the crash itself, but for the fact that people are attributing sinister motives when none likely existed. [Given all we know at this point, it seems fairly certain that the crash was ice and weather related.] If there weren’t still so many unanswered questions about what really happened on that day in 2001, I doubt that people would still have these lingering doubts. If the government were more forthcoming with information, the conspiracy theories out there, like the ones now surrounding Eckert’s death, would likely fade away.
192 Comments
Unlike the Mike Connell light aircraft crash in December, it appears that this crash is being handled in a much more open and standard manner by the NTSB. For the most part, they have been quick to share details and there doesn’t appear to be any attempt to suppress or over-control access to information.
As you say, Mark, the details of this are looking much more consistent with this incident being the result of weather conditions. It appears that rapid icing was occurring northeast of the airport where inbound flights were making their final approach. Flight data and voice recorders show that the crew was dealing with dramatic control problems consistent with rapid icing. Two other aircraft on approach following Flight 3407 also reported experiencing these conditions. 30+mph wind gusts were also reported at the time.
So, all the usual places where one would find “flags” had this been anything but an accident are not there in this crash of Continental Airlines commuter flight.
I caught a headline today saying that 3407 was on autopilot when it crashed. If I get some time, I’ll look into it tonight and post a link. Seems weird, though, as I believe they were on approach to the airport.
Icing!? Robert. And just who do you think control’s the weather?
(It was a tough choice between that, Superman III, and GI Joe “Revenge of Cobra.”)
Ol’ E Cross, I am willing to consider the possibility that Kate Bush brought Flight 4307 down. I think it’s more likely though that the band Bush did it with their Machinehead weapon. It’s better than the rest.
Sorry, I meant Flight 3407…and actually, I apologize for joking at all about this very sad topic. It was insensitive and inappropriate. The 50 lives which were lost Friday night deserve better, I know.
I know Beverly Eckert was clearly a good and loving person. She worked hard for the seven and a half years since her husband’s death, honoring his memory and her love for him. It’s that kind of love that provides the only solace to us in these short lives.
Hearing the stories of who each of the victims were and where they were at in their individual life’s journeys makes it all the more difficult to digest. Each of those 50 people who died in that horrible few moments Friday could really have been any one of us, and it would be our loved ones left stunned and wounded so deep emotionally.
So, I’m sorry for my stupid comment.
Oh, and yes, Mark, I heard the NTSB report that too, that the autopilot was engaged up until “just before the crash.”
Each airport has a selection of Instrument Approach Procedures (IAPs) which inbound IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) aircraft usually follow as they arrive into the area. Each IAP involves a series of turns and descents. Autopilot can be programmed to carry these out, but the FAA recommends they be carried out manually, especially under certain conditions, such as when icing is possible. Continental Airlines has rules requiring it under these conditions.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJC3407/history/20090213/0031Z/KEWR/KBUF
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJC3407/history/20090213/0220Z/KEWR/KBUF/tracklog
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0901/00065IL23.PDF
I have seen some talk of problems reported that night by other aircraft in regard to the Instrument Landing System (ILS) for runway 23 @ BUF, to which Flight 3407 was making it’s approach.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system
Here’s The Chicago Tribune’s transcribed last-moments radio communications between Buffalo Tower and Flight 3407, as well as other aircraft on approach to runway 23:
4:38 – ATC: colgan 3407 procede direct ____?
4:58 – ATC: colgan 3407 descend and maintain 6,000
8:39 – ATC: colgan 3407 descend and maintain 5,000
8:40 – 3407: 5,000 for colgan 3407
9:09 – ATC: colgan 3407 descend and maintain 4,000
12:14 – ATC: colgan 3407 descend and maintain 2,300
12:19 – ??? garbled
12:39 – ATC: colgan 3407 turn left heading 330
12:42 – 3407: left heading 330 colgan 3407
14:04 – ATC: colgan 3407 turn left heading 310
14:07 – 3407: left heading 310, colgan 3407
15:08 – ATC: colgan 3407 3 miles from ____ colonel?? left heading 260? maintain 2300 til established localizer and cleared ils runway 2-3
15:17 – 3407: left 260, 2,300 til established and cleared ils 23 approach, colgan 3407
16:02 – ATC: colgan 3407 contact tower 204.5 have a good day
16:08 – 3407: muffled colgan 3407
17:01 – ATC: colgan 3407 approach
17:22 – ATC: colgan 3407, buffalo
17:24 – ATC: colgan 3407, approach
17:33 – ATC: delta 1998, look out ur left side about 5 miles for a dash 8, should be 2300 feet, see anything there?
17:40 – delta 1998: uh negative, delta 1998, we’re just in the bottoms and nothing on the TKs
17:48 – ATC: colgan 3407, buffalo
20:12 – ATC: Colgan 3407, buffalo tower, how do you hear?
20:27 – ATC: this is ground communication, i need to talk to someone at least 5 miles northeast, J possibly clearance, that area right there, akron area, either state police or sheriff’s department, i need to find if anything’s on the ground. this aircraft was 5 miles out and all of a sudden we have no response from that aircraft
20:46 – ???: all i can tell you is that aircraft over the marker and we’re not talking to them now
20:52 – ???: k
21:04 – ATC: Delta 1998, you getting any icing where you’re at?
21:05 – Delta 1998: uh, we’re picking up on the way down – i dont think we’re building anymore here, but about uh 6500 down to 3500 maybe?
21:13 – ATC: thank you sir
21:17 – ATC: Delta 1998, there’s gonna be a delay, i’m gonna bring you back around, expect a hold over KLUMP 21:22 – Delta 1998: alright we’ll expect a hold over KLUMP, delta 1998
21:46 – something: apparently we have an emergency sir, i’ll get back to you as soon as i can
23:57 – ATC: for all aircraft, this frequency – we have a dash-8 over the marker that didn’t make the airport. he appears about 5 miles away from the airport. delta 1998, i’m gonna bring you in sir, on the approach. um if you could just give me a fire up when you get to 2300 and if you have any problems with the localizer or anything, let me know – however we’re showing it all in the green here.
24:22 – 1998: will do
24:45 – ATC: delta 1998, 6 miles from KLUMP maintain 2300 until established on a localizer, clear to ils approach runway 2-3
24:54 – delta 1998: ILS 2-3 and we’re still in the imc here, 2300 delta 1998
25:00 – atc: are you getting any kind of icing or anything there?
25:03 – delta 1998: uhh it doesn’t appear to be building, we have a 1/2..1/4 inch from the descent that has remained this whole time
25:11 – atc: thank you
25:18 – cactus 1452: whatever: intercept us low for cactus 1452 and we’ve been picking up ground lights here for the last 10 oh minutes
25:25 – atc: okay, stand by for ??? ice report
25:36 – atc: who was that?
25:39 – cactus 1452: ’52 sir, we’ve been getting ice since about 20 miles south of the airport
25:46 – atc: – cactus 1452 okay, if you can let me know when you get out of the icing, aircraft coming up from the south was reporting that earlier
25:25 – atc: delta 1998, if you could, just disregard the auto land sir, contact 120.5 just let him know if you have any variation in the localizer or anything
26:34 – delta 1998: -5 okay, delta 1998, thanks
27:05 – ???? …any kind of information you can get, we’d appreciate it
27:12 – ???? sir, right now, 2300 seems pretty clear here
28:05 – atc: cactus 1452, thanks for your help, we appreciate it, contact tower 130.5 28:12 – cactus: ..5 for cactus – did you find colgan?
28:14 – atc: uhhhh unfortunately they said he went down right over the marker KLUMP
29:17 – cactus 1452: tower, cactus 1452 is coming up on the marker, we saw the ground, you guys know whats going on?
29:24 – tower: cactus 1452, buffalo tower 162.14 going right 23, you are clear to land, yes sir, we are aware
29:29 – cactus 1452: k
Here’s the actual audio from Buffalo Tower’s communications with Flight 3407 Friday night.
http://buffalogeek.wnymedia.net/blogs/files/2009/02/kbuf-feb-13-2009-0300z.mp3
The press is transcribing a lot of the communications wrong: I’ve gone through and corrected what I could from the time Flight 4307 first contacted Buffalo Approach through the moment of the crash.
Colgan 3407’s communications with Buffalo Approach:
3:52 – 3407: “Buffalo Approach, Colgan 3407, 12 for 11,000, with Romeo”
(meaning: descending through altitude 12,000, on the way down to 11,000, with weather information designated “Romeo”)
3:58 – ATC: “Colgan 3407, Buffalo Approach, good evening, Buffalo alt is two niner eight zero, plan ILS approach runway 23”
(meaning: barometric pressure at BUF is currently at 29.80 and 3407 is to intercept the ILS localizer for runway 23)
4:04 – 3407: “two-niner-eight-zero, and ILS 23, Colgan 3407”
4:38 – ATC: “Colgan 3407 proceed direct TRAVA”
(meaning: turn to heading heading directly toward intersection named “TRAVA”)
4:43 – 3407: “…” (scanner missed acknowledgement)
4:58 – ATC: “Colgan 3407 descend and maintain 6,000”
5:04 – 3407: “…zero seven” (scanner caught acknowledgement late)
8:39 – ATC: “Colgan 3407 descend and maintain 5,000”
8:40 – 3407: “Five thousand for Colgan 3407”
9:09 – ATC: “Colgan 3407 descend and maintain 4,000”
9:14 – 3407: “…” (scanner missed acknowledgement)
12:14 – ATC: “Colgan 3407 descend and maintain 2,300.”
12:19 – 3407: “…zero seven” (scanner caught acknowledgement late)
12:39 – ATC: “Colgan 3407, turn left heading 330”
12:42 – 3407: “left heading 330, Colgan 3407”
14:04 – ATC: “Colgan 3407, turn left heading 310”
14:07 – 3407: “left heading 310, Colgan 3407”
15:08 – ATC: “Colgan 3407, 3 miles from KLUMP, turn left heading 260, maintain 2,300 ’til established localizer, cleared ILS approach runway 23” (KLUMP is an intersection located on the localizer at the outer marker)
15:17 – 3407: “left 260, 2,300 ’til established and cleared ILS 23 approach, Colgan 3407”
16:02 – ATC: “Colgan 3407, contact tower 120.5 have a good night”
16:08 – 3407: “3407” (acknowledgement)
16:18 – (unknown): “…” (unknown transmission of two quick unknown sounds)
16:48 – (unknown): “…” (unknown transmission scanner caught late)
17:01 – ATC: “Colgan 3407, approach” (Buffalo Approach calling 3407)
17:20 – ATC(Tower): “Colgan 3407, Buffalo” (Buffalo Tower calling 3407)
17:24 – ATC: “Colgan 3407, approach”
17:33 – ATC: “Delta 1998, look out your right side about 5 miles for a dash 8, should be 2,300, do see anything there?”
17:40 – Delta 1998: “uh negative, Delta 1998, we’re just in the bottoms and nothing on the TCAS” (meaning: no blip on Delta 1998’s anti-collision system showing an aircraft where 3407 should be)
17:48 – ATC(Tower): “Colgan 3407, Buffalo” (Buffalo Tower calling 3407)
20:12 – ATC(Tower): “Colgan 3407, Buffalo tower, how do you hear?”
In keeping with Robert’s apology, I wasn’t intending to make light of the crash but of conspiracy theorists who might find any thread of a reason to use the crash…
The NTSB being more open??? Baloney!! They are already denying the plane went into a nosedive, which many witnesses saw and it clearly landed on one house only with the tail section sticking straight up out of the ground. I call that clear evidence of a nosedive. Had the plane been more level it would have taken out more houses and the tail section probably would have broken off.
Brought to you by NTSB, the same good folks who “told” us how JFK Jr’s plane went down.
Linda, get your ass back here! Everything you just said is wrong.
I simply said the NTSB has been more open about this particular crash than they have been about the Mike Connell crash. That’s actually not saying a whole hell of a lot, because they have essentially covered up everything about the Connell crash. Also, for the record, I’m a person who believes it is far more likely than not that JFK Jr’s plane was sabotaged. The circumstances and many details suggest it. I think the NTSB investigators on that case knew it
Next, the NTSB is not denying that the plane went into a nose dive. They’ve already stated that the aircraft first pitched up several degrees and then pitched forward/down at something like 45 degrees. The plane then dropped over 800 feet in about 5 seconds. Also, it rolled dramatically to one side and then to the other, to the point of almost having wings at a 90 degree angle to the ground.
What the NTSB has said is that the final impact occurred with the aircraft essentially falling more flat than in a nose dive position. That’s all. They didn’t say that a nose dive didn’t occur initially.
The whole “nose dive” thing doesn’t carry significant meaning anyway. A plane going nose first into the ground suggests very little about the initial causes which led to that loss of control in the first place. When looking for a cause, that is where you’ll find the detail which is most significant, not in the position the plane just happened to be in when it finally hit the ground.
It appears from your comments also Linda that you don’t realize an aircraft’s momentum isn’t always going fully in the direction its nose is pointed. When the NTSB says it hit belly first, for example, that doesn’t mean that they are saying the momentum of the aircraft was almost completely horizontal.
And as for you, OEC, why don’t you just admit it? Your comments were, like mine, insensitive and inappropriate.
Robert,
I might, if Linda hadn’t commented. I reserve the right to insult those who turn a plane crash into a self-amusing investigation.
My point was that our comments were insensitive and inappropriate toward the victims and their loved ones. I didn’t mean to sound concerned about any insults you may direct toward anyone else.
I’ve never been a big fan of any of the “stretch” versions of various aircraft designs. They appear to be less responsive and less forgiving when pilots make major errors. The Q400, which is the aircraft type that crashed in buffalo a week ago, is sort of the latest “stretch” version of the original deHavilland dash Eight , or DH-8(100). Frequently, the aircraft manufacturers will take what is a pretty sound original design and modify it over the years so as to make it more cost effective to operate. Replacing engines with newer more fuel efficient designs is one way they manage this. Another is to redesign the fuselage to accommodate a greater number of passengers. This is usually accomplished simply by stretching the original length of the fuselage. McDonnell Douglas did this many times to their original DC-9 model, creating the MD-80 and 90 series’.
Though I think the original Dash Eight design was great, these newer models appear much less recoverable when things go seriously wrong. I think the same thing is true of the MD-80s and MD-90s.
My favorite commercial aircraft designs have continued to be the Boeing 737 and the British Aerospace BAe-146. The 737 has proven time and time again to be remarkably maneuverable, forgiving, and recoverable from catastrophic failures and loss of control. They have been flown and landed safely after experiencing major physical damage. A few have been landed after completely losing an engine…and I mean literally losing an engine, right off the wing mounts. In one incident in Hawaii, a 737 was safely landed after a good third of the top of its fuselage had peeled away in midflight.
The Bae-146 is another great design. It is commonly used for routes which involve a short field landing and/or a good amount of time over mountain ranges. With its four jet engines, it can withstand the failure of one or two (one on each wing) without becoming too unmanageable.
Anyway, though of course there were a number of contributing factors in the crash of Flight 3407, I do believe it is possible that the aircraft design in this one didn’t help any. It wouldn’t surprise me if given the same set of circumstances a pilot could not have recovered an original design Dash Eight before impact.
You’ll notice that the Turkish Airlines flight which crashed today on approach to Amterdam was a 737. It appears as though they ran out of fuel, but the crew were still able to save many lives, though not their own. Nine of the 134 aboard are said to have been killed. The number of injured is said to be at 55.
I now believe that “socializing” in the cockpit is likely to have been a contributing factor in the crash of Flight 3407.
Aviation safety is all about redundancy in systems. That is why one adverse factor or the failure of one particular system is almost never enough to result in catastrophe. It usually takes a combination of several contributing factors to place an aircraft and its crew into an unrecoverable situation.
In the case of the Flight 3407 crash I’d say the following were contributing factors from most to least in significance:
1) Pilot error in maintaining a high level of alertness necessary especially under adverse weather conditions. The flight crew appears to have been lax and/or willingly distracted. Though the captain was experienced, the first officer was not so much. As you can hear from the audio recording, her handling of responses to air traffic control instructions was clumsy and inefficient. She may have been an exceptional pilot otherwise, but she was not in charge. The captain, who may have also been an exceptional pilot, seems to have been overconfident and distracted in conversation with the first officer. The decision he made to use the autopilot to make the approach was an irresponsible one.
2) Icing appears to have destabilized flight control and possibly raised the stall speed. This is a factor which should have raised the alert level of the crew.
3) Wind shears also were significant in the area and may have hit at the least opportune moment. This also should have had the crew operating at a higher level of alertness.
4) Low altitude on approach leaves little room or time for recovery from destabilized flight. Considering the potential of icing and wind shears the crew should have been at a very high level of alertness and should have been taking all precautions, knowing they would have little or no time to recover from any loss of control that might happen.
5) A relatively unforgiving aircraft design was a factor as well in my opinion. You probably won’t hear it from anyone but me though. Pilots and aircraft manufacturers fiercely defend the designs with which they are most familiar or for which they are responsible. Nobody likes to say certain designs are better that others, but naturally that is just the way it is. The Dash-8 model has never been particularly recoverable from catastrophic failure and, like I’ve said, the “stretch” versions of any design are even less forgiving.
The absence of any one of these factors would have likely allowed for sufficient recovery of aircraft control, but by far the most critical was pilot error.
You may recall the crash of Northwest Flight 255 back in 1987. The major factor leading to that crash was the failure of the flight crew to extend the flaps to take-off configuration. This occured because they were distracted from their taxi/pre-take-off checklist by conversation they were engaging in with a flight attendant.
My recommendation is that airlines, if they are going to have ANY hot chicks on the flight deck, they need to ALL be hot chicks up there. This way there are no goofy dudes getting distracted.
The NTSB’s preliminary report can be found here:
https://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20090213X13613&key=1
There are some suggesting another victim in this crash, Alison Des Forges, may have been the target of interests willing to go as far as bringing down a commercial aircraft to get rid of her. See the Online Journal article:
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4373.shtml
Another point of view can be found here:
http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2009/05/flight-3407-crash-rwanda-genocidegate.html
I still believe the crash was an accident. Everything I have seen and heard regarding the details of the crash itself is consistent with this. However, I haven’t heard the cockpit voice recording yet, and that would probably provide considerable evidence one way or the other.
…and this is a bit strange:
http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com/2009/02/ny-state-police-conduct-illegal-search.html
As long as neo-con Bush appointee Mark Rosenker is head of the NTSB, I will have absolutely no confidence that organized criminals aren’t calling the final shots in everything the NTSB does. Rosenker has to go. He had no business being the head of an investigative body in the first place.
I probably shouldn’t have included any links to Alex Constantine’s Blacklist site because he really is pretty nuts. But I just thought the NY State Police confiscating a guy’s video was sort of strange. And this Constantine guy, no matter how crazy he is, still manages to dig up some pretty obscure things.
The death of two attorneys representing the family of one of the victim’s from Flight 3407 is sort off odd, especially because they died in yet another plane crash. See the article:
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/searching_for_cause_of_ohio_crash_090429
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/searching_for_cause_of_ohio_crash_090429
There is some press coverage today raising questions about the experience level of Flight 3407’s captain, Marvin D. Renslow.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/17/national/main4805800.shtml
Check out the excellent animation the NTSB produced providing moment by moment information from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I
Pilot error is pretty clearly the immediate primary cause here. Pilot fatigue very likely contributed to that. The voice recordings have yet to be released publically which suggests to me that the chatter between the pilots might be somewhat embarrassing. The NTSB has only shared transcripts, but has said there was a lot of unnecessary bantor.
There were no commercial planes on 911. It was all a lie. Not a single piece of debris has ever been verified by an insurance company. These same insurance companies have paid out over $100 Billion in claims. There were no commercial planes on 911. All actions taken by the US since 911 because of 911…..must be re-examined.
Lacy, you can see pretty plainly in the videos the two commercial aircraft striking the WTC towers. They are both easily identifiable as Boeing 767s. Your statement makes absolutely no sense.
Never in the history of aviation has a video, eyewitness, or photo EVER verified a plane or plane crash. Only wreckage does. To this day not one single piece of airliner debris from any of the 4 planes on 911 has ever been inspected, tested, analyzed, or verified IN ANY WAY. The White House passed executive orders that says NO ONE can ever verify ANY debris from the “planes” of 911. It’s been 8years Robert….you are going to have to come to terms with the truth that Bush may have lied to you on 911. Because there were no commercial planes…the war on terror is based on a lie. The US has spent trillions of dollars, effected billions of people for generations to come, killed and tortured millions of people, in a never ending global war. ALL….because 4 planes crashed on 911. It was all a lie. There were no commercial planes on 911.
With regards to WMD’s on Iraq…there was also video, film, photos, and witnesses. It was a lie. Only by testing the WMD was it then termed an “Intelligence failure”. Get use to this statement….no one could have imagined that we should have tested and verified the debris from the planes? No one could have imagined that the planes were something other than what our “intelligence” was telling us.
The videos you received on 911 were brought to you by the very people and companies which have made 100’s of billions of dollars BECAUSE of 911. There were no commercial planes on 911. You were lied to….again.
So, Lacy, are you saying you don’t believe the planes that hit the WTC were commercial or are you saying you don’t believe planes hit the WTC? I feel like you’ll need to clarify that point.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. That is what 9/11 was. That is why we have the never ending global war on terror. Commercial planes being highjacked and flown into buildings is why we invaded countries and killed millions of people. Commercial planes crashing on 9/11 is why we have the Patriot Act, TSA, Homeland Security, torture, renditions, incarcerations, wiretapping, spent trillions of dollars, suicides in prisons…I’ll stop there. ALL because 4 commercial planes crashed on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. Who knows what hit what? They were not commercial planes.
ps….during aviation crash investigations the word “believe of belief” should never enter the equation. Airliner crashes are confirmed through debris. You never have to “believe” anything. You simply verify it. To this day….not one single piece of airliner debris from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations have EVER been tested, inspected, analyzed, or verified in ANY way. None. No commercial planes=no war on terror. The second someone wanted to test and verify the WMD’s in Iraq it became an “intelligence failure”. These were the exact words used by the White House on 9/12/01 to describe 9/11.
Coming to terms with the extensive implications of what no commercial planes on 9/11 means will take time because it will implicate thousands of people especially trusted names and personalities in media, government, and military. Once you understand that the US media is owned and controlled by the top US military contractors…what you “saw” on 9/11 will make more sense. GE, the owner of NBC, has made ONE TRILLION dollars because of and from the crimes and spending from 9/11. On the day of 9/11 a total of only 7 seconds of video was shown to the world of “planes crashing”. The so-called witnesses were not who you thought they were. At ground zero FEMA and FBI had thousands of agents preparing for a “terrorist drill” on the morning of 9/11….these were the people interviewed by mainstream on the morning of 9/11. Watch the Evan Fairbanks video…the man in his shot was an FBI agent with a shortwave radio…..why?….because on the morning of 9/11 all communication and “live video” was blacked out in NYC. This is a classic Mildec or pysop operation tactic.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. That means you do not have to spend your life trying to solve how these criminals killed so many.
I asked a pretty simple question and you didn’t answer it. Why is that?
Here, let me try again…
Did two Boeing 767 aircraft crash into the WTC towers?
“The so-called witnesses were not who you thought they were”
This is the funniest part. So my friend in NYC who clearly saw a 767 crash into the WTC on 9/11 is not who I think he is. Maybe he’s an alien.
Robert…..let me answer your question again. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. Your question was quite simple and I answered it in the first sentence. Only wreckage verifies a plane crash. Not what you think crashed, not what a friend “saw”, not what a military corporation owned media outlet showed you, not videos, not film or photos…..but wreckage. There are 3.1 million ID stamped parts to a standard 767-220R airliner. That’s almost 13 million pieces that can be inspected, tested, examined, and verified. To this day…not one single piece has been verified. Eyewitnesses have NEVER in aviation history been used to verify an airliner crash. Though for some reason on 9/11 that is the most important form of verification? All I’m asking is to go by verifiable evidence…which in the case of an airliner crash…is the debris and wreckage.
Dude…when is your friend going to give his testimony on what he saw in a court of law? Was your friend interviewed by MSM on the morning of 9/11? Has your friend ever written down what he saw and had it notarized? Is your friend an aviation expert….since he was able to immediately identify an aircraft as a 767 moving at 500mph coming from the south side of Manhattan? Did your friend give his statement to the Morgan Reynolds witness study? Why are you typing and speaking for your friend? Why not have your friend post?
I have never said what your friend may or may not have seen. I only go by verifiable evidence. To this day there is none. Until then….your friend can see whatever he wishes. I tell you that 1000’s of military, FBI, and FEMA agents are already at ground zero BEFORE the planes hit….and all you can say is something about what one of your friends may have seen? They were not interviewing your friend that morning….they were interviewing the murderous traitors that were taking part in the operation called Tripod II. Over 1 billion people have witnessed an alien spacecraft. To date no independent verification of extraterrestrial craft has ever been found. Why? Because only wreckage and the actual debris will confirm what was ever seen. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. Millions have been killed, trillions spent, billions of people effected for generations to come, thousands tortured and renditioned….all because 4 commercial planes crashed on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. Just like the WMD’s in Iraq…you were lied to again by your military, government, and military owned media.
I do like your tenacity to uphold what Bush Jr. told you was the truth on 9/11. It does show some character. Ps….one month after 9/11 Bush told the UN that the world can never acknowledge outrageous conspiracy theories regarding 9/11. Do know which theory he was talking about? He was talking about the fact that there was no verification of commercial planes on 9/11!!!
Lacy, you DIDN’T answer my simple question. Jeez, you’re worse than Brachache. All I asked is if you believed planes hit the WTC, and if you suspected that they were not the commercial planes that the official story suggests. Is this too fucking difficult for you to clarify? What the fuck is the problem here?
Please stop telling me what you THINK I believe. You have absolutely no idea what I believe. Just help me understand where you are coming from by clearing up one simple fucking question I’ve asked you three times!
How can you expect the government or anyone else to provide you with honest answers to anything when you can’t even answer a very simple question put to you? Why should they be held to any standard you don’t hold yourself? Why should they be any different or better than you? You dodge questions. What’s wrong with them doing it?
I didn’t ask you if there “were commercial planes on 9/11.” That fucking wording doesn’t even make any sense. Of course there “were commercial planes on 9/11.” There were tens of thousands of commercial planes on that day, as there are every day. I was fucking asking you if you felt there were commercial planes flown into those towers, or if they were, for example, military versions of 767s painted to look like the commercial planes they were said to be. Can you not discuss this simple aspect of the matter?
Just so you will fucking shut up about all that other shit, let me tell you I absolutely don’t believe the official story. I believe absolutely that the Bush Administration lied continuously about the whole thing, and so on. Get the fuck off that for the moment, I beg of you, and just answer my question AS I WORDED IT it to you. Can you do that? Are you capable of not reading into my question all sorts of things you imagine are there and instead just answer my question as it is put to you?
Here’s a simple yes or no questions for your convenience.
Did any type of aircraft hit the WTC on 9/11?
Just to be clear, here was my question as I worded it:
“Did two Boeing 767 aircraft crash into the WTC towers?”
And here is your ‘answer’ quoted exactly:
“There were no commercial planes on 9/11.”
Are you under the impression that your response is somehow an answer to my question? Do you see how it doesn’t actually answer my question?
Robert….you have excellent questions. You will get your answers on your own time. If I told you there were no WMD’s in Iraq…and you asked but were there anthrax ladened bombs? I don’t know….all I know is that there were NO WMD’s in Iraq. The same applies for the “planes’ of 9/11. They could easily have been jassm rockets or a global hawk….but they were not commercial planes with people on board…which is what 9/11 was supposed to be.
You are in some kind of word game pissing contest. That is a sign of a shill. I will not be posting here anymore. Thanx for your time and good luck coming to terms with what the US government, military, and military owned media did to the world on 9/11. For some it may take years or lifetimes to truly understand just how sick the US military complex truly is. Keep hold of the “belief” that the US government and military would never stage a false attack against its own citizens. Everyone has a different coping mechanism to block out a trusted authorities crime. Denial is always the first step. Take care Robert…and I do truly wish you all the best in your journey to know the truth………
Lacy, if you are not hot this has all been a waste of time.
Actually, Lacy, it is an undisputable fact that two 767s struck the WTC on 9/11/2001. That is proven by thousands of pieces of admissible evidence which all corroborate one-another precisely. It is impossible to mistake jassm rockets or global hawks for 767s.
What is not absolutely certain is that these aircraft were the commercial flights the official story claims them to be, although there is little or no evidence to suggest they were not in fact these commercial flights. It is reasonable to assume they were, primarily because there is nothing that could be done with a military 767 painted up to look like a commercial airliner that could not simply be done with the commercial 767 airliner itself. That fact renders any questions regarding this detail essentially mute.
What there is even much less evidence of is the claim in the official story that the two 767s which struck the WTC were being piloted by Middle Eastern terrorist/hijackers. In fact, there is a considerable amount of evidence which disputes this assertion, and there is a suspicious lack of supporting evidence which actually should be there if the assertion is true.
Lacy, you can’t seem to keep to a logical train of thought, nor answer simple questions put to you. In light of that, it would probably be in the best interest for any cause you might believe in if you were not to talk about it. A person with your disabilities can only do damage any cause you attempt to champion.
“it is an undisputable fact that two 767s struck the WTC on 9/11/2001”
There was massive dispute about whether a 767 struck the WTC’s. And that was from Norad, the FAA, and the NTSB itself. Transponder codes disappeared with radar contact being wiped out before the “crashes”. Just ask the air traffic controllers on 9/11. Not one single piece of airliner debris has ever been verified from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations from 9/11. There is massive dispute about whether there were planes on 9/11.
“That is proven by thousands of pieces of admissible evidence”
Admissible evidence? You mean like in a court of law? To this day there has yet to be a single court case regarding ANY evidence presented about what was seen, filmed, or heard from 9/11. They have allowed torture cases from Gitmo and transcripts of no phone calls from planes during the Moussoui trial….but nothing about what was seen, tested, inspected, or verified from anything from 9/11.
“It is impossible to mistake jassm rockets or global hawks for 767s.”
There are cops who mistake a real gun for a taser gun! There are millions who mistake an aircraft for an alien spaceship. If just one person out of 6 billion people on the planet could mistake a jassm for an aircraft then your statement is quite possible. We mistook video of WMD’s in Iraq for WMD’s? Anything is possible when dealing with witnesses.
“not absolutely certain is that these aircraft were the commercial flights…..no evidence to suggest they were not in fact these commercial flights”
You just said you were not absolutely certain and in the same sentence said you were because of evidence. Classic double speak.
Like Lacy has said there has yet to be a single piece of debris verified by anyone from the planes on 9/11. You seem very much like a lawyer Mr. Robert. You would think that verifiable evidence would be a concern of yours.
“thousands of pieces of admissible evidence”
Like what? Film, home movies, witnesses, TV broadcasts from the top US military contractors who had direct financial ties to the spending that came from 9/11? Videos, photos, and witnesses have never verified a plane crash. Only wreckage does. To this day not one single piece from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations have ever been tested, inspected, analyzed, or verified in any way! You write…”It is reasonable to assume they were”. Nothing is reasonable and you should never assume. Only wreckage verifies a plane crash. When will the FBI allow anyone on the planet to verify a single piece?
…and of course I meant “moot” and not “mute” in my comments above.
TamesRive? Where did you get that name, Lacy? Why is it so important to you to imagine that planes didn’t hit the WTC, when tens of thousands of witnesses saw it, and hundreds filmed it? It is such a bizarre claim I can’t help but wonder if it is some sort of deliberate distraction. It is just hard for me to believe that anyone is this disconnected from reality and from the obvious. I mean, are you saying hundreds of corroborating clips of video were all doctored or something?
Ok, well, I’ll go through all your comments and point out how you are wrong, and are saying things, which simply make no sense.
You said,
“There was massive dispute about whether a 767 struck the WTC’s. And that was from Norad, the FAA, and the NTSB itself.”
Absolutely not! the FAA (which is what air traffic controllers are) tracked both of the 767s in question from their departures from Boston Logan Airport all the way to their impacts into the WTC. Norad was notified as soon as the aircraft broke with flight plans, and was then tracking the flights along with ATC. Radar contact was never lost! The thing that you are referring to when you say, “Transponder codes disappeared with radar contact being wiped out before the” crashes, is actually a very simple thing that amounts to no more than the pushing of a button and resetting the four digit transponder (or ‘squawk’) code. Doing so doesn’t cloak the aircraft from radar, as you seem to believe happened. The only thing that happened is that the codes were reset to a default, and therefor no longer specifically squawking the designated codes identifying themselves as those specific flights. So, on radar, instead of say a squawk code of 8537 (random example), the aircraft was squawking 0000, or maybe 1200, which is the code designating general aviation VFR aircraft. So your overdramatic statement suggesting something “disappeared” or was “wiped out” just shows how terribly uninformed you are, and that you really shouldn’t be talking about thing about which you know so little, except maybe to ask questions.
You said: “Just ask the air traffic controllers on 9/11.”
This is probably the closest you come to ever making an actual point, because, yes, air traffic controllers have been suspiciously silenced. However, what they have said is NOT that the aircraft they were tracking didn’t hit the WTC. Actually, they confirm that IS what happened. What they ARE being stopped from talking about is the extraordinary number of suspicious details surrounding the incident.
You: “Not one single piece of airliner debris has ever been verified from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations from 9/11.”
It is true that the standard procedure of collecting and identifying wreckage have not been carried out, and that it is suspicious that it wasn’t done, especially in the case of the Pennsylvania crash where aircraft debris was not mixed in with tons of debris from the destroyed buildings. What occurred on that day was a crime, not an accident. The sites should have all been handled as crime scenes. They weren’t. What the Bush Administration did can be characterized as destruction of evidence. As you, I suspect it was deliberate.
You said: “There is massive dispute about whether there were planes on 9/11.”
No, actually, there isn’t. Only in the case of the destruction at the Pentagon is there any real lack of evidence supporting the official story’s claimed cause.
You said: “Admissible evidence? You mean like in a court of law? To this day there has yet to be a single court case regarding ANY evidence presented about what was seen, filmed, or heard from 9/11. They have allowed torture cases from Gitmo and transcripts of no phone calls from planes during the Moussoui trial….but nothing about what was seen, tested, inspected, or verified from anything from 9/11.”
Yes! Admissible evidence! The evidence is admissible regardless of whether it was ever used in a trial, which as you say, it wasn’t. I too find that fact troubling, but there is still plenty of admissible evidence.
You said: “There are cops who mistake a real gun for a taser gun!”
Never in circumstances when they can see the weapon clearly. So your analogy is absurd. Thousands of individuals identifying and hundreds fucking video taping the same enormous object a few hundred feet above them in the daylight is dramatically different than one officer trying to identify something in a person’s hand, often in dark, in a split second is a completely different thing.
You say, “There are millions who mistake an aircraft for an alien spaceship.”
Sure, aircraft that they don’t recognize, and/or that look strange and unfamiliar to many, like a stealth fighter or an experimental plane. But I don’t think you will find one instance where any individual mistook a 767 for anything but a large commercial aircraft. Your comment does not support your argument.
You said: “If just one person out of 6 billion people on the planet could mistake a jassm for an aircraft then your statement is quite possible.”
You are right. Maybe I should have made an exception for completely insane people. However, I’m still confident that you can not find a single person who doesn’t recognize a 767 at an altitude 500 feet as a commercial aircraft.
You said: “We mistook video of WMD’s in Iraq for WMD’s? Anything is possible when dealing with witnesses.”
What are you talking about? There was no video of WMD! Why do you make shit up?
Ok, now for the one that really pisses me off…
You say, “You just said you were not absolutely certain and in the same sentence said you were because of evidence. Classic double speak.”
…and this is the sentence in my comments you say you are referring to: “not absolutely certain is that these aircraft were the commercial flights…..no evidence to suggest they were not in fact these commercial flights”
Now where in the fuck do you see me saying I am certain of something in this sentence? Are you fucking blind, insane, or both?! I said there was no evidence to suggest they were not commercial aircraft. How does this translate to certainty about anything?! WTF!?
Then you say, “Like Lacy has said there has yet to be a single piece of debris verified by anyone from the planes on 9/11. You seem very much like a lawyer Mr. Robert. You would think that verifiable evidence would be a concern of yours.”
Uh, you’re not fooling anyone. It’s obvious you are Lacy…and you better be fucking hot! Because the only crazy people I will tolerate for a second are hot women.
In reference to my statement that there is plenty of evidence, you say: “Like what? Film, home movies, witnesses, TV broadcasts from the top US military contractors who had direct financial ties to the spending that came from 9/11?”
Yes, yes, yes, and yes…among other things. Dozens of videos taken from different vantagepoints which depict precisely the same events in every minute detail are compelling evidence to say the least.
You said: “Videos, photos, and witnesses have never verified a plane crash. Only wreckage does. To this day not one single piece from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations have ever been tested, inspected, analyzed, or verified in any way! You write…”It is reasonable to assume they were”. Nothing is reasonable and you should never assume. Only wreckage verifies a plane crash. When will the FBI allow anyone on the planet to verify a single piece?”
Wrong, actually. It IS reasonable to assume sometimes, though in an investigation that does not mean you eliminate possibilities. The problem in all this is not at all what you seem to think it is (though you don’t even seem all that clear on what you think). This was a crime, and should have been handled as such. It should have been investigated as a crime. It wasn’t.
Lacy, or TamesRive, or whatever you want to call yourself, you should only be asking questions. Your assertions are vague, misinformed and serve only as distractions from logical discussion. If you were to just ask questions, you’d get a lot further in your understanding, if in fact that is anything you are interested in.
If you actually care about any of this, don’t you think you should be more concise in your communication and informed about basic details?
The truth that there were no commercial planes on 9/11 is going to effect you greatly. Coming to terms with the enormity of the lie you have been fed and eaten for so long is going to take time. Just like you came to terms with the truth that there were no WMD’s in Iraq…you will understand just how sick your military, government, military owned US media, and US corporations can be when colluding together. I understand your need to attack the messenger…that’s fine.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. The never ending global war on terror is based on a fabricated lie. All of it.
haha robert you’re such an ass.
well i’ll bite–what are the proper questions to ask? why do you think bush et al deliberately destroyed evidence? what are the suspicious details that concern the air traffic controllers?
(i admit to being completely not in the know because conspiracy theorists of the lacy variety make me nutty. i tuned out this debate a long time ago.)
Can anyone prove to me that the World Trade Center ever existed?
If I get into a car accident, the insurance company will not pay a single penny until someone from the insurance company (an appraiser) or someone from the shop (under oath) verifies the VIN number from the vehicle…the vehicle identification number. Regardless of whether 100 Billion people say the car crashed, they pay nothing until the VIN is verified. Regardless of whether 100 Billion photos and 100 Billion videos were taken of the car crashing….an auto insurance company will not pay one single penny until it physically verifies the VIN number on the vehicle itself. And that’s for a $5,000 car. Now fast forward to the multi-million dollar planes of 911…….
The airline insurance companies will pay nothing until they verify the Serial ID numbers on the planes themselves….just like a car. A standard 757 has over 3 million verifiable ID parts. On 911…that’s almost 12 million parts that could be verified to pay a claim. Though get this…not one single penny has been paid by airline insurance companies for any of the 4 planes lost on 911. Why? Despite Billions of witnesses, billions of photos, and billions of videos and TV viewers…..the airline insurance companies only pay by verifiable wreckage. Just like a car. TO THIS DAY….NOT ONE SINGLE PIECE OF AIRLINER DEBRIS FROM ANY OF THE 4 PLANES FROM ANY OF THE 4 LOCATIONS ON 911 HAS EVER BEEN VERIFIED IN ANY WAY. Not one single piece.
Once you come to terms with the fact that there were no commercial planes on 911…you will begin to understand the true crimes of the US political regimes.
So, if this were a fraud and no commercial planes were involved in /11, then the government must be paying out large sums to surviving family members of crash victim to hide their loved ones in the basement.
You’ve never seen Capricorn One, dude?
Why would the media and government lie about the planes of 911? Sure they lied about WMD’s, torture, dumped depleted uranium from bombs over the entire country of Iraq causing millions of deaths for generations to come, lied about rendition flights….but why would they lie about 911? Sure the media and government lied about outing agents names, actions taken during Katrina, lied about the killing of thousands of people and 10’s of thousands of personal pets and animals following Katrina, retaliations against attorney generals for political reasons, threatening Congress, blackmailing Senators, destroying all tapes and transcripts of the days and week following Katrina…but why would they lie about some planes crashing on 911?
Sure they eliminated habeas corpus, installed and supported Blackwater, “lost” trillions of dollars at the Pentagon, privatized and sold-out the entire US infrastructure, illegally used funds meant to “rebuild” Iraq, immunity for telecoms and pharmaceutical that they ordered to commit crimes…but why would the media and government lie about plane crashes on 911? Sure they lied about the massacres in Haiti, stole the elections in 2000 and 2004, detonated the levees in New Orleans 2 days after Katrina left, misquoted world leaders to produce fear. Sure they lied about water contaminations, toxic exposures, global warming, immigrant roundups, number of deaths of Iraqi and Afghanistan civilians, number of killed US soldiers, pillaging of our entire US financial banking with Trillions in corporate give outs and bailouts, secretly changing executive orders however they wish, medical associations in charge of CIA torture…..but why would the media and government lie about 4 planes crashing at 4 locations on 911?
Sure Bush lied about his drug arrests. Lied about his 30 year homosexual relationship with Victor Ashe. Lied about seeing the first plane hit the WTC. Threatened every Congressman to never investigate 911. Ordered the murder of Paul Wellstone because he opposed the Patriot Act. But why would the military owned media lie about 911? Pillaged Billions from the US education system with No child left behind, encouraged massive real estate fraud through deregulation and zero oversight which is now causing a global economic collapse, deposits nuclear waste on US soil from foreign countries by “redefining” what waste is, covers-up Halliburton’s selling of nuclear technology, eliminates protections for whistleblowers, hires out torture worldwide to private companies, allows for the greatest crop of heroin to grow in Afghanistan, and refuses to say where trillions have gone within the Homeland Security agency….though why would they lie about planes crashing on 911?
Largest number of felons ever hired at the white house, intentionally destroyed Iraq’s water and energy systems, continually destroys labor unions and environmental causes, brutalizes and tortures protesters or “homegrown enemy combatants”, highest number of dual citizens in top key government positions in US history, caused the entire US financial collapse from “Subprime” mortgages which was nothing more than Bush Sr’s S&L real estate scandal on steroids….though why lie about 911 and a couple of “planes”?
Threatens countries such as Paraguay, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Venezuela with military action if they don’t play ball, murders and threatens Supreme Court justices to open up seats, destroys ALL verifiable evidence of 911 and never allows for any testing, violently refuses to have an investigation of 911 for almost 2 years then gets to decide who will be on the panel, murders thousands of witnesses and legally threatens many more who wish to come forward regarding 911 especially firefighters from the Pentagon and FBI agents who said there were no planes…..though why would the media and government lie about 911? Spy on their own citizens illegally, murder journalists worldwide, eliminate tort reform, uses child wards to test AIDS drugs, destroy parental rights, manipulate and threaten science worldwide, allow media to legally lie with new laws, install puppet Governors such as Arnold in California (met with Ken Lay just before “recall”), demolish labor laws worldwide…though why would they lie about a plane crash?
The first thing Bush told you about 911…was that there WERE planes. He would never lie about that would he? This government has never lied or mislead us about anything……..
“The truth that there were no commercial planes on 9/11 is going to effect you greatly. Coming to terms with the enormity of the lie you have been fed and eaten for so long is going to take time. Just like you came to terms with the truth that there were no WMD’s in Iraq…you will understand just how sick your military, government, military owned US media, and US corporations can be when colluding together. I understand your need to attack the messenger…that’s fine.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. The never ending global war on terror is based on a fabricated lie. All of it.”
For the love of life, Lacy/thames! Do you not read my responses?! I never had any doubt of the enormity of the lie surrounding 9/11. Only idiots don’t see the obvious inconsistencies and impossibilities of the official cover story. I didn’t “come to terms” with the truth that there were no WMDs in Iraq. It was what I assumed from well before the invasion, and ever since. The set up was obvious. I know how sick it all is. I know it better than you do obviously. I’m not attacking the messenger because I don’t agree with the general message. I am attacking the messenger because you are clearly discrediting the message you claim/pretend to be promoting. How is it fucking possible that you have missed this? Seriously, please go back and read through my comments before making statements regarding what you THINK my beliefs are.
What do you brainiacs say we all get together at the Corner Brewery sometime and actually discuss the details of this stuff in some productive manner? You all seem to talk right past everyone else. None of you seem to actually address what others are saying. Are you all really this incapable of intelligent and logical thought and debate? Seriously! I really hope you are all just posting your comments from the computer lab at Jackson State Prison. To think that people with brains this poorly wired could be out and about in society really worries me.
kjc: “i admit to being completely not in the know because conspiracy theorists of the lacy variety make me nutty. i tuned out this debate a long time ago.”
So, kjc, you blame other people for your not being in the know?
kjc, to answer your ridiculously easy questions, it isn’t that I THINK the Bush Administration destroyed evidence – It is accepted fact that they did. You’d know that if you were even slightly informed. They called it hauling away debris. You don’t do that in a criminal investigation. Are you unaware that, as crazy and stupid as Lacy/Thames/ProgressAgent may be, they are correct about the fact that enormous amounts of physical evidence was disposed of without investigative examination? The rubble of WTC, Pentagon and the PA crash site were all crime scenes. They were not handled as such. Did you miss that the first couple times I said it?
I can’t make any conclusive judgments about why the Bush Administration chose to do that. I’m not like you. I insist on my beliefs being founded on a logical process of analysis. Their motivation could have been something as simple as the assumption on the part of too many people that there was nothing to investigate. The motive could also be something much more disturbing. The evidence was destroyed, and anyone who is unaware of that is a lazy and uninformed, because that is such an easily ascertainable fact which is not in dispute. The only thing which is disputed is whether or not there was reason to investigate. The Bush Administration took the position that there was not.
There were countless suspicious details involving air traffic control on 9/11. Not the least of which were the destroyed recordings and gag orders placed on controllers. Even so, some controllers have talked and relayed details regarding the drills which they were told were taking place that day, all of it bizarre and contrary to standard protocol. There is even an activist group of air traffic controllers and pilots trying to draw attention to the cover-up of events and details. Do a little reading. I’m not going to do it for you.
Do you have any other easily answered questions? Maybe you can even get your lazy brain off its ass, do a little reading, and come back with some actually challenging ones. Oh wait, crazy people are keeping you from informing yourself. That’s right. Sorry, I forgot.
actually, i’ve been dealing with my dying dad for months, and last week i was busy with the actual dying part. i stay informed on lots of topics–and readily admit the ones I haven’t. as i did here. i’m pretty sure i was going for easiest, most obvious questions in fact. it hadn’t occurred to me to challenge you.
and when i said you were an ass, it was a joke. as in your posts had made me laugh. or maybe you knew that. i’ll admit it’s less funny when the insults are directed at me.
i don’t have a lazy brain either, but it’s not like you’re making these comments because you know anything, right? you’re just trying to be as rude and hurtful as you can. score, dude.
No, kjc, I was far from trying to be as rude and hurtful as I can. Trust me, I can be much, much worse. I was actually being pretty soft on you, because I don’t know much about you. I didn’t even know if you were male or female. I even e-mailed Mark before I posted my comment asking him if he knew. You see, in general I have considerably more patience and tolerance of women than I do of men. I’m still not absolutely certain which you are, but I’d say chances are better than 90% that you are female. Either way, I’m proceeding with that assumption.
I do know this…when my father was dying, I wasn’t going around sharing that fact as a way of garnering sympathy from strangers. You certainly won’t get any from me here. I’m sure that’s the sort of thing that works on everyone else here. However, the use of such a tactic offends me, as does the failure of a person to take responsibility for their own intellectual laziness and ignorance.
If your strategy is to make other people here hate me, you are too late. I have been doing that job myself for years, and much more effectively than you ever could. If there is anyone here at this point who doubts that I am a vicious, heartless, monster, I would be surprised.
I will also add that, yes I think it is lazy to not know basic details about what was arguably the most catastrophic event in recent US history. Admittedly, you are far from being alone in that ignorance. Maybe there is some sort of comfort you can take in that. The vast majority of Americans know almost nothing about the details regarding what happened that day. In fact they often have many misconceptions about those details. However, the attacks of 9/11 occured almost eight years ago. That seems like plenty of time to gather a few basic details regarding such an important incident. To me, that sort of ignorance is unforgivable. If a person gives a shit about their country, and their world really, they wouldn’t be sitting around waiting to be spoon fed conclusions about such critical matters.
So please, don’t take my comments too personally. They were meant more as an insult to all uniformed people. I would hate for any of those other people who have chosen to remain ignorant, about such a basic and important matter, to somehow feel safe with the false notion that I wasn’t talking about them as well.
To me, here, ignorance is the enemy. Those who openly express it, and especially those who do so with arrogance, are going to be the target of whatever attacks I can mount.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
Capt. Daniel Davis, Former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director: “As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire. Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed. Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon? If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there”
After 8 years not one single SPECK of tail assembly or engines from any of the 4 planes from 9/11 has ever been verified by anyone on the planet. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. The never ending war on terror is based on a fabricated lie.
115 Reasons Why I Am a No-Planer
1) The dearth of plane debris at all of the four crash sites
2) No matching of debris found with actual official planes via serial numbers
3) Not one tail section found or observed from the four crashes though tails survive all crashes
4) No wing tips breaking off in 2nd hit videos
5) No broken off wing tip sections photographed or reported being recovered
6) Not one of hundreds of metal seat frames from the planes photographed or reported being recovered
7) None of four black boxes recovered from ground zero, officially
8) Initial eyewitnesses to the south tower hit described a missile
9) The lack of deceleration as “UA175” goes into the south tower
10) The lack of significant deflected debris as “UA175” goes into the south tower
11) The lack of anything clearly breaking off the plane as “UA175” goes into the south tower
12) Discontinuous dust cloud pattern from “UA175” as it goes in the tower in the Hezarkhani video
13) The lack of any alteration in the course of “UA175” as it goes in the tower
14) The impossible behavior of “UA175” acting indestructible as it goes in the tower then shattering to bits once inside the tower
15) The lack of any explosion as the fuel-filled wings of “UA175” make impact with the thick steel columns of WTC2
16) The lack of any significant fire from the port wing of “UA175”
17) The explosions on tower façade away from impact site as “UA175” goes into the south tower
18) The abnormally large explosions produced by wingtips as “UA175” goes into the south tower
19) The way the wings of “UA175” initially slice into the tower in videos, cleanly with no deflected debris, with an unnatural straight edge along the spot of entry
20) The strange tube-like explosion that appears under the fuselage of “UA175” in the Hezarkhani video
21) Parts of the south tower hole become larger after plane has already passed through
22) The south tower hole is completely blocked by debris and broken columns, which contrasts the way the plane slips into tower without slowing or breaking up on video
23) The discrepancy in engine puffs (above wing versus below wing) between Fairbanks and Hezarkhani videos
24) Plane path discrepancies in different 2nd hit videos
25) Odd coloring/tinting in several 2nd hit videos
26) The readily available technology to insert digital objects, such as planes, into video (for instance see Ace Baker’s work)
27) The ability of the blue sky on 9/11 to act as natural blue screen
28) Live shot of 2nd hit is same camera feed for CNN, ABC, Fox—they all showed helicopter shot at same key moment
29) In live shot of 2nd hit, camera man “taken by surprise” by plane—plane suddenly enters frame—cameraman apparently not able to see plane approaching
30) Initial 2nd hit videos, particularly live shot, only show indirect view of tower hit; don’t see videos with plane going directly into tower until much later
31) Fox5 side-view shot of plane replayed on CNN, talking heads refer to plane going through the building, but view of plane is cut off by large banner at bottom of screen
32) Both the ABC/CNN/Fox live shot and the Fox5 shots of the 2nd hit have blackouts right after the explosion starts
33) Michael Hezarkhani not allowed to talk about his video by CNN
34) Michael Hezarkhani’s amazing ability to pan at the speed of a plane coming over his head from behind
35) The inconsistent story of where Michael Hezarkhani filmed his video
36) The bad acting/over acting of the voices in the “black plane” video
37) Frames of the black plane video appearing as Robert Clark photos
38) The Manos video where the woman rants about suicide bombers as the 2nd hit occurs and where the videographer also has a video of him and friends “sneaking” into Area 51
39) The Park Foreman video initially appearing as photo frames on CNN
40) Suspicious history of CameraPlanet, where many amateur videos appeared
41) The CBS video from the north where the plane comes in at a blatantly wrong angle to hit the tower, disappears behind the tower, then the explosion
42) The odd similarity of the Naka Nathtaniel and Park Foreman videos—in particular the same panning motion in both
43) Clear discrepancy in the Anthony Cotsifas photo with the position of the 2nd plane with 2nd hit videos
44) The inconsistent story of Evan Fairbanks and his video
45) Evan Fairbanks’ alluding to his video being unreal
46) The cartoon-like quality of the plane image in several second hit videos
47) The airframe anomalies in the plane in most 2nd hit videos
48) The fact that high resolution videos of the second hit have not been released
49) The fact that no one has taken up Ace Baker’s challenge for $100,000 for an original amateur 2nd hit video
50) David Handschuh (and others, e.g. Victor Cruzate) not seeing the plane despite being in position to see it
51) Many putative 2nd plane witnesses, when analyzed carefully, only saw the explosion or saw the whole thing only on TV
52) Several extremely improbable photos of “UA175” right before impact
53) The laughable Moshe Bursuker photo of the plane half in the south tower
54) Kathy Cacicedo, who saw the WTC from the southwest, saying the plane banked around the side of the tower—indicating a fly-by
55) Plane is smaller than should be in some 2nd hit videos, indicating a fly-by or flawed video fakery
56) The “white elephant” plane that Diane Sawyer referred to as circling by the WTC before the 2nd hit
57) The lack of official explanation for the “white elephant” plane
58) The fact that Reynolds Dixon, who wrote a paper for a 9/11 journal on the “white elephant” plane, complained of harassment and suddenly left the movement.
59) The endless replaying of the 2nd hit videos on the networks, a form of brainwashing
60) The plane-shaped holes—at all four crash sites—that defy physics
61) The ridiculous absence of debris at the Shanksville crater
62) The conflicting accounts of how much of flight 93 went into the ground
63) The conflicting accounts of how much of the flight 93 plane was recovered
64) The lies about the phone calls on flight 93
65) The wing marks in the Shanksville crater that contradict an inverted Boeing 757 crash
66) The ridiculously idea that amateur pilots flying 767s and 757s for the first time could pilot the planes with such precision at high speed
67) The fact that UA175 was exceeding maximum velocity for low altitude
68) The confusion of air defense systems and easy explanation by no planes
69) The 9/11 hijack drills had fake radar targets
70) Fake plane crashes mentioned as part of Operation Northwoods
71) The inconsistent story of Carmen Taylor; the picture of the burning WTC taken from NJ shown in her camera
72) Fake plane crashes add to the psy-op effect and test ability of system to fool the public
73) The incredible series of zoom-ins for the Fox5/WNYW video, with the cameraman seemingly oblivious to the plane but zooming in tight just in time to capture the 2nd hit
74) The miraculous zoom-ins/zoom-outs right before the plane strike in several 2nd hit videos
75) The blatant nose-out frames of the Fox5/WNYW video contradicting that the plane officially didn’t exit the tower
76) The blatant nose-out frames of the Fox5/WNYW video contradicting the lack of a major exit hole for the South tower
77) The two different edited versions of the Fox5/WNYW video that appeared
78) The fact that a few people who took videos of the second plane were professional video animators (Devin Clark, Luc Courchesne, Scott Myers, Naka Nathaniel)
79) WABC news chopper pilot, Paul Smith, who helped get WTC footage on 9/11 killed in freak accident
80) Inconsistent stories of WABC Cameraman John DelGiorno
81) Fox5 helicopter reporter Kai Simonsen, a green-screen expert
82) Devin Clark’s slip-up referring to “those fake videos” in his interview with Jeff (Pumpitout) Hill
83) The very very strange behavior of all other 9/11 plane witnesses and experts called by Jeff (Pumpitout) Hill
84) The pathetically unrealistic Purdue simulation of AA11 going into the north tower
85) The “curtain-chewer” hyperactive 2nd plane witness
86) The NYC 1st plane witnesses interviewed on TV who weren’t in a good position to see the plane or who were network executives or both
87) The very obscure history of many– if not all—2nd hit videos
88) Peter Hanson’s fake-sounding phone call from flight 175
89) Inconsistent stories about engines landing around the WTC
90) The too obviously planted “plane debris” north of the WTC that no one can explain
91) The large engine fragment at Church and Murray, that ended up under a construction canopy on its end, without leaving a major impact crater.
92) The unlikelihood of the Naudets filming the 1st hit
93) The lack of similarity of the object in their 1st hit video to a Boeing 767
94) The curiously cut version of the Naudet’s 2nd hit video
95) The multiple pieces of plane debris that are clearly planted
96) The inconsistent story of Barbara Olson’s phone calls from flight 77
97) The fact that the official Pentagon-AA77 story violates aerodynamics as a 757 can’t fly a few feet off the ground at 500+ mph
98) The plane path contradictions in the Pentagon-AA77 story
99) The easy ability of “flight 77” to overfly the Pentagon and land at Reagan National
100) The delay in releasing the 2nd Pentagon security camera video
101) The strange lack of attention to the blurry object in the 2nd Pentagon security camera video
102) The conflicting accounts of how much of the flight 77 plane was recovered
103) The high preponderance of painted fuselage debris found on the Pentagon lawn
104) The curious Pentagon entry hole, with intact windows above
105) The round Pentagon “exit” hole
106) The aircraft nosecone being reported as being outside of the Pentagon “exit” hole
107) April Gallop’s Pentagon story
108) The discrepancy in aircraft debris blown backwards out of the entry hole at the Pentagon versus not at the WTC
109) The (initial) absence of AA11 and AA77 in the BTS database.
110) The lack of transmissions from any of the four flights indicating a hijacking.
111) The hysteria that greeted and still greets no-planers from so many in the controlled 9/11 truth movement
112) the RNC cutting the plane out of their video montage of 9/11 shown at the 2008 convention.
113) Oliver Stone not showing any plane in his 2006 movie “World Trade Center”
114) The incredibly fake Harley Shirt 9/11 witness
115) the last-second high-speed bank (“course correction”) made by “UA175”
So if one is to fall into the belief that there were no planes…what happened to all of those people who were on the real planes at that time?
When investigating an airliner crash….one should never “fall into a belief”. That’s what religions are for. Airliner crash investigations work only by wreckage and debris for verification. Never has aviation history used witnesses or video to prove the existence of a crash. Only wreckage counts. That is why you will never have to “believe” a plane crash. You simply verify the wreckage.
What happened to all those people who were carrying around the real WMD’s in Iraq? What happened to all those people who were anally probed by the real UFO’s? What happened to all those people who were on the real boats during the Gulf of Tonkin attack? By saying there were “real planes” and “passengers” you are assuming that there were planes. THERE WERE NO COMMERCIAL PLANES ON 9/11. Aviation disasters are not a belief system. Simply look at the verifiable evidence which is the debris and wreckage. ps….there is no wreckage from any of the 4 planes from 9/11 that has ever been verified. Not one single piece after 8 years and counting.
How about this question….because there were no commercial planes on 9/11…do the actions, acts, wars, media coverage, and millions of deaths created because of 4 planes on 9/11 need to be reconsidered?
OK, I’m convinced:
“Oliver Stone not showing any plane in his 2006 movie “World Trade Center””
This is an incredible conspiracy, indeed. The government personally went and killed the family members of all the people on those planes.
This is so stupid:
1. People bought tickets for the planes.
2. People got on the planes.
3. People did not come back.
Where did the people go?
Moreover, how did they convince the airline to give up the plane? That’s a serious chunk of money.
There is not one shred of evidence that ANYONE bought any plane tickets on the morning of 9-11. Not one single credit card from ANY of the passengers aboard ANY of the planes were ever charged for an airline ticket. Not one. Not one car from any of the passengers was left at any of the 4 airports. NONE of the relatives from any of the 4 planes showed up at any of the airports to find out more information. Not ONE relative dropped off a single passenger aboard ANY of the 4 planes from 9/11. No video exists of ANYONE at any of the airports in question. No drop offs, no boarding, no ticketing, no reservation videos…nothing. There were videos played by the media of “arabs” but it was a different time at a different airport on a different day. How did you determine that people got on the planes? Not even the family members saw them get on the planes? How do you know this?
Who knows what these murderers did to those 256 people? (To give you an idea of what might have happened to these people remember that authorities found the severed hands of a stewardess at the WTC’s! Your guess as to what may have happened is as good as mine but that does not mean there were commercial planes on 9/11.)
How did they convince the airlines to give up the planes? Good question. The airline industry received over $15 Billion dollars within 2 weeks of 9/11 from the US taxpayer. American Airliners got $900 million within 10 days of 9/11. Its possible that they were the ones who did the put-options just days before 9/11 for even more money. Interesting to note that the insurance companies of the planes themselves have never paid a dime for the ‘lost’ planes of 9/11. These insurance companies only pay by wreckage. Even after 8 years…there has yet to be a single verifiable piece of debris from ANY of the 4 planes from ANY of the 4 locations on 9/11. That is why they were paid with taxpayer money and not insurance. (Money laundering and “separation scams” were everywhere on 9/11 especially with Silverstein and the WTC complex itself.)
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. Though every one of your questions still ASSUMES that there were? There were no commercial planes on 9/11. The never ending war on terror is based on a murderous lie.
Ps…you just found out that there were no commercial planes on 9/11. Trillions of dollars have been spent, billions of people have been effected, millions of people have been murdered and killed through preemptive invasions, 100’s of thousands tortured and incarcerated without charges…..and you want to know aobut 256 people whose planes have yet to even be verified?
There is not one shred of evidence that ANYONE bought any plane tickets on the morning of 9-11. Not one single credit card from ANY of the passengers aboard ANY of the planes were ever charged for an airline ticket. Not one. Not one car from any of the passengers was left at any of the 4 airports. NONE of the relatives from any of the 4 planes showed up at any of the airports to find out more information. Not ONE relative dropped off a single passenger aboard ANY of the 4 planes from 9/11. No video exists of ANYONE at any of the airports in question. No drop offs, no boarding, no ticketing, no reservation videos…nothing. There were videos played by the media of “arabs” but it was a different time at a different airport on a different day. How did you determine that people got on the planes? Not even the family members saw them get on the planes? How do you know this?
Who knows what these murderers did to those 256 people? (To give you an idea of what might have happened to these people remember that authorities found the severed hands of a stewardess at the WTC’s! Your guess as to what may have happened is as good as mine but that does not mean there were commercial planes on 9/11.)
How did they convince the airlines to give up the planes? Good question. The airline industry received over $15 Billion dollars within 2 weeks of 9/11 from the US taxpayer. American Airliners got $900 million within 10 days of 9/11. Its possible that they were the ones who did the put-options just days before 9/11 for even more money. Interesting to note that the insurance companies of the planes themselves have never paid a dime for the ‘lost’ planes of 9/11. These insurance companies only pay by wreckage. Even after 8 years…there has yet to be a single verifiable piece of debris from ANY of the 4 planes from ANY of the 4 locations on 9/11. That is why they were paid with taxpayer money and not insurance. (Money laundering and “separation scams” were everywhere on 9/11 especially with Silverstein and the WTC complex itself.)
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. Though every one of your questions still ASSUMES that there were? There were no commercial planes on 9/11. The never ending war on terror is based on a murderous lie.
Good God, you’re even dumber than EoS.
I feel stupid even falling for your ridiculous bait, but you have to realize how absolutely stupid you sound.
I can thank you for one thing, at least. I was able to familiarize myself with people as absurd as yourself. (This sounds so stupid: “There were no commercial planes on 9/11.” Did they all just disappear from the earth?).
I found this page to be entertaining. Maybe you will once you leave your mother’s basement:
http://www.sawyerhome.net/whatilearned.html
“Did they all just disappear from the earth?”
No….just all the parts. I know you are probably being sarcastic with your interpretation by thinking that I mean every plane on the entire planet…but just to clarify for you….I am only talking about the 4 commercial planes which Bush said crashed on the morning of 9/11. Clear?
In terms of dissapearance……ALL EIGHT of the 6 ton, 9ft wide, titanium alloy engines dissapeared on the morning of 9/11. A first in aviation history. All the black boxes and all the VDR’s had no serial numbers. A first in aviation history. None of the 4 tail sections has ever been found. A first in aviation history. No passengers were recovered and verified at any of the 4 sites. A first in aviation history. The employees of the Pentagon were threatened by the FBI with imprisonment if they ever said there were no planes at the Pentagon (April Gallop). No luggage was found at any of the 4 crash sites. A first in aviation investigation history. (Expire drivers liscenses and planted parts found 5 weeks later do not count).
The truth will never care how something sounds. The truth will never care about being absurd and living in a basement. The truth will never care if you are entertained by it. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. The US military has murdered MILLIONS of people because of this lie. It may be amuzing to you but I asurre you it is anything but…especially when you consider that it is a never ending global war because of this lie. It is conceivable that over 1 billion people may be killed because of this fabricated lie by the US government and military. Look how the never ending global war on evil has turned out?
I meant to say no passenger SEATS were ever recovered. Of course they found DNA from passengers because they planted it there. When you murder someone you are in complete control over the release of their DNA?
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. There were no commercial planes on 9/11.
The reason it is important to maintain the lies of planes on NYC is because it would expose the military corporation owned US media to charges of conspiracy to commit mass murder. Remember that on the morning of 9/11 the only people interviewed that saw “planes” were media personnel and executives. Without the US media’s help in promoting the Deception Execution Cycle of “planes” on 9/11….the military and government would never have gotten away with anything. At the Pentagon “plane” witnesses were also media executives.
Readers of this forum…..never forget that the US military spends $5 billion dollars a year hiring 1000’s of people to promote the “Lies of 9/11”. They are instructed to form truth groups, infiltrate truth groups, start and post forums, write and stage media opportunities (marketing), and sometimes suggest targets that should be neutralized (killed). Read the violent reaction when someone objects to “no commercial planes on 9/11”. Did these same people violently object when someone mentioned “No WMD’s in Iraq”? I doubt it. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. The never ending war on terror is based on a lie. Homeland security agency, TSA, wiretapping, torture, renditions, trillions spent, millions killed…..ALL based on a staged and fabricated lie. That’s why the military spends $5 billion a year…they stand to lose TRILLIONS in “income” should the fact that there were no commercial planes on 9/11 reach critical mass.
Regardless of what exactly happened on 9/11, your incessant repetition of the vague and counter intuitive line, “there were no commercial planes on 9/11,” only serves to discredit “9/11 truthers” of any kind.
It is interesting that that particular line has replaced “9/11 was an inside job” in much of the noise on the Internet. The “inside job” claim at least had some support in the circumstances and evidence. The “no commercial planes” line is absurd on the face of it, and without question drives more people away from questioning and examining the official story.
Robert i agree. Its been a decade. If anyone actually cared or questioned anything they would have done something by now. Inside job is meaningless. Lots of people have jobs that are inside. If you tell me there were no planes on 911 then that would expose a great deal. Ive read over these post from the last few weeks and dispite the language and your not believing any of it…why are you always coming back to post. If I disagreed I would just leave. You keep coming back because its not true? Whats this about discredit of 911 truthers? Who cares. Its been 10 years. What has the “truth” done? The truth about Iraq is that there were no WMD’s. Though we are still there and are never leaving. The truth is irrelevant. It doesnt mean shit. Keep coming back though I like your responses.
Clearly, the Bush Admin wasn’t very good about keeping the fact that there were no WMD’s in Iraq under wraps. What makes you think they’d be able keep as complicated a conspiracy as you are suggesting under wraps? Seriously. I think there are far more realistic and constructive areas of government to be criticized.
You give them far too much credit and not enough to many, many government workers and public servants who are willing to speak up.
I’m assuming you are one person posting under 5000 different made up names.
There were no WMD’s in Iraq. After 6 years of intensive bombing the US has killed over 2 million Iraqi civilians. The US, for the first time in its history, preemptively invaded another country based on a lie or intelligence failure. The world now knows its a lie. YOU….know that its a lie. When are you going to be “willing to speak up” and demand that the US leave Iraq? You will never speak up. Just like our so called workers and servants will never speak up. Even though you know its a lie? That is called supporting, protecting, and harboring a terrorist. By not speaking up you are a criminal. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Claiming the government and military are too stupid to keep a lie under wraps is called complicity and collusion. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Anyone who says there were must be tried for conspiracy to committ murder. Millions of people have died worldwide because 4 commercial planes crashed on 9-11. That is a lie.
Um, I think that pretty much everyone at this point knows that there were no WMDs in Iraq.
I never said that government was “too stupid to keep a a lie under wraps.” I said that keeping a grand and ridiculous conspiracy such as the one you are suggesting under wraps with the thousands of people that would have to be involved is an impossibility.
I speak up. It’s called voting. You should try it some time.
“I think that pretty much everyone at this point knows that there were no WMDs in Iraq.”
Based on what? Lack of verifiable evidence? The WMD’s had witnesses, video, home movies, photos, every governement and military leader backing, presentations before the UN? How can you say there are no WMD’s in Iraq? The commercial planes of 9-11 have the EXACT same “evidence” of existance as the WMD’s in Iraq. Not one single SPECK of plane debris has ever been verified from any of the planes from 9-11. Just like not one single SPECK of WMD has ever been found or verified. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Just like the WMD’s in Iraq thousands of people lied to you, or as the military puts it, they had an intellignece failure to you.
So voting will cure what ails you? Google Clint Curtis………
Do you spend all of your waking hours trying to convince yourself of your own bullshit?
The bullshit convinced me long ago. Its everyone else who spends their lives believing the bs thats being fed to them by military, government, and military owned corporate media. I just stir kettle.
Is there a link to this thread on some “9/11 Truth” site somewhere? I can’t figure out were all of these comments are coming from. Either it’s one person posting under a few different names, or someone – probably Robert – posted a link to this thread somewhere.
And, for what it’s worth, I don’t think 9/11 was an inside job. It’s just too massive. Too many people would have to have been in the know. I do, however, think that we allowed it to happen to some degree by disregarding the warning signs. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that we were hoping for an attack which would allow us to take action in Iraq, but I do think it’s safe to say that we weren’t terribly motivated to stop an attack that we knew was imminent. There had, after all, been an earlier attack on the towers, the idea of using planes as missiles was known, and Bush had a report saying that Bin Laden was determined to strike within the United States.
If I had the power to pull a false flag conspiracy like this off, I would have just saved myself the time, money, and worries about coconspirators ratting me out, and just had a bunch of guys from a culture known for cultivating suicidal warriors (who hated us for legitimately heinous invasive stuff we’ve done to their countries) hijack some planes with box cutters and fly them into shit.
No, Mark, I didn’t post any link to any 9/11 site attracting this stupidity to your blog. The “no-planer” who goes by many names here is a goof. They can’t follow simple logic and instead just keep spouting the same overly simple and vague lines which they have essentially cut and pasted from some crazy 9/11 site. As much as I hate you and your blog, Mark, I would never bring such stupidity to it.
Though I disagree with your assumptions, Mark, I am at least grateful that you are able to discuss topics in a logical and intelligent manner. This “no-planes” fool appears incapable of engaging in any sort of constructive conversation whatsoever. A person like that can only do harm to any position they take on any topic. This has been my one and only point regarding them.
This thread is about the crash of Flight 3407, but that “no-planer” idiot can’t talk about it because there apparently aren’t any crazy web sites from which they can cut and paste their supposed opinions. A person with a mind of their own WOULD be able to discuss the actual subject matter of this thread.
Oh, and by the way, I think Brackinald Achery makes a good point in response to your comments Mark. I’d be more interested in your response to that than I would be to seeing that no-planer repost their idiocy once again.
To clarify: I’m not convinced that 9/11 was a false flag conspiracy, just that if it were, it’d be a lot easier to do it with a bunch of Al Qaeda guys than to play 3-card monte with a bunch of planes and passengers and use missiles and planted explosives instead of planes.
I can believe it was a generally provoked attack against innocent civilians because of our government’s meddling foreign policy, but I just can’t buy the whole no planes thing. At the absolute conspiratorial worst, someone may be able to convince me someday that the CIA could have had something to do with it because of their past associations with Al Qaeda, but I currently don’t suspect that. I think it was just bad blowback from bad foreign policy that innocent people paid for with their lives, and which in turn provoked even worse foreign policy.
There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Robert…it is going to take some time to understand just how many have lied to you about 9-11 and for how long. I understand your violent denial. Everyone goes through it. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. You must have denied it furiously when you heard there were no WMD’s in Iraq? The same exact people lied to you abou the commercial planes on 9-11.
Yes, Brackinald Achery, I think you make sense, as Mark does for the most part as well. It’s a sad world we live in when you two are the ones who bring sanity into a conversation.
Regarding 9.11, I think that the hardest thing for people to accept is that it might have not been avoidable. Regardless of what Bin Laden claims, I don’t think there is any foreign policy decision that caused 9.11, nor is there any particular foreign policy decision that could have stopped it. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are fanatics who wished for the biggest publicity bang for their buck and got it.
If Bin Laden hates Israel so much, why didn’t he just fly plains into Tel Aviv? If he hates the base in Saudi Arabia so much, why didn’t he just jump into Saudi Arabian politics and try to do something about it?
After 9.11 there was a quick jump from extreme political factions to blame ourselves, but I really think that’s akin to blaming the woman who gets raped because she wore a certain kind of clothes that day, and is a disservice to the people who suffered, namely, all of us.
I completely believe that 9.11 was unavoidable. Even if we had knowledge, Al Qaeda would have found some other way of doing it and would have done it no matter what foreign policy decisions were made up to that point.
That’s not to say, however, that I agree with BushCo’s subsequent decisions. Going to Afghanistan was right. Going to Iraq was not.
I’m curious, dude – Do you feel that way about other terrorist attacks, major crimes, or other events? I mean what makes an event unavoidable in your view?
Unless crimes are performed by your immediate family or friends, I believe that if they happen, they are probably mostly unavoidable.
Sure, walking around with $100 bills taped to your forehead while drunk and naked at 2 am in Detroit is asking for it, but that wasn’t the case with 9.11.
I would have liked to have seen Bush walking around Saudi Arabia masturbating on a Koran while wearing nothing but an American flag, but unfortunately, we didn’t get so lucky.
It’s pretty clear that the 9-11 attacks, at least in the precise form that they took, could have been avoided if US airport security practices had been increased; allowing people to carry knifes on to planes never made sense. Plus, the Bush White House dropped all the efforts of Richard Clarke and others in the national security council to seriously pursue reports of plans by terrorists to attack the US. All this is plainly documented; see the 9-11 Commission’s report, and Clarke’s great book AGAINST ALL ENEMIES. (If you think the attacks were not real attacks, you are delusion, in my opinion).
Why did the US routinely allow people to carry knifes and box cutters and such on to planes, for decades past the point other nations prohibited them? One friend of mine, from the Middle East, said that such careless security policies were a result born of American arrogance, the idea we were too mighty and too beloved and too virtuous to be targeted. I think she’s right — plus there’s that narrow minded American belief that to restrict carrying of knifes and other things that could be used as weapons would be an infringement on air passengers’ personal freedom. But the point is that, yes, if American policy and perhaps American cultural practices had been different, yes, the 9-11 attacks could have been avoided – could not even had been organized the way that they were organized.
As for the other big “debate” in this tread: Thousands of New Yorkers saw commercial airliners crash into the WTC. That that happened is as clear as day. Debating whether that happened is like debating whether Pearl Harbor was bombed by airplanes on Dec 7, 1941. When well established, well documented facts are disputed with elaborate theories, it’s impossible to “debate” the question, as the question is raised by a fringe element whose beliefs are not subject to reason or evidence.
The events of 9-11 and its aftermath are complex, and worthy of study and debate, but some of these assertions are well beyond the realm of reason.
Mark, you are right, 9.11 as it was could have been avoided if we had learned all the lessons of 9.11 before 9.11. This is all hindsight at this point, which is, of course, 20/20.
My greater point is that the perpetrators of of 9.11 were determined and would have pulled it off at some point no matter what we had done. Never, ever underestimate the resourcefulness of a determined criminal.
If someone comes up to me in the street, no matter what clothes I wear or what I may have done in the past, and kills my family, is it right to say that I deserved it? I think that people often forget this and seek to blame whoever they can here, ourselves, whatever, instead of blaming those who perpetrated an inexcusable act of violence and hatred to satisfy a self-serving hunger for ideological power.
You wouldn’t have deserved it, dude, but if someone claiming to represent you burned down that guys house and killed his family, it would have been provoked. There’s a difference. That’s why I say our foreign policy provoked it, but that the civilians killed were innocent — they didn’t deserve it.
If Al Qaeda were actually representing a group of people fighting for territory or had some clear political agenda, I would agree. However, they don’t. Bin Laden’s speeches make about as much sense as Sarah Palin.
Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah have political agendas that make sense and hence have polotical futures. Al Qaeda is pure ideology.
I would suggest you read this book by Sayed Qutb, the ideological father of groups like Al Qaeda and Islamic Jihad:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6412907/Syed-QutubThe-America-I-Have-Seen
And, BA, I fail to see how the United States can in any way be responsible for kill the 9.11 hijackers families. Most of them were from Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden loves to rave on Israel, but not a single one of the 19 hijackers were Palestinian. Maybe you are referring to the Gulf War? Well, none of them were Iraqi either. Perhaps you are thinking of some military operation that we don’t know about?
Exactly what about our foreign policy are you speaking of? Provide some specifics and I might be willing to believe you. I’m not saying that they aren’t there, but you are speaking as if you have some knowledge of the matter. Please. Provide.
“Mark, you are right, 9.11 as it was could have been avoided if we had learned all the lessons of 9.11 before 9.11.”
That’s not exactly what I said, now, is it?
You do recall that an attempt was made on the World Trade Center several years prior to 9/11, right? And you remember that Bush received an intelligence briefing prior to the attack which said that another attack inside the United States was imminent, right? And terrorist attacks against our foreign assets were growing (see the bombing of the USS Cole, etc). So, no, I don’t think it took 9/11 to warn us about the possibility of 9/11. I think the signs were there.
I love me some conspiracy…”Behold A Pale Horse”…”Chariots Of The Gods”…but I also love “Days Of Our Lives”. Actually, not anymore, since John & Marlena are off the show. But trust me, there is something more to that situation than just them “leaving the show”. There’s gotta be. It just doesn’t make sense. Hmmmmm….
Mark M. is absolutely right — there were lots of indicators, well in advance of 9-11, of both the vulnerability of American aviation and the intention of terrorists to attack the US. We didn’t need advance knowledge of 9-11 to realize that there were vulnerabilities in the system — just some common sense regarding security: Don’t let people carry weapons (knifes, etc) on to air planes! I believe that the US allowed tht particular practice longer than any European or Middle Eastern nation did, and it was a concern raised repeatedly.
dude, you have found the fault with my streamlined metaphor. It is a more easily readable version of: “You wouldn’t have deserved it, dude, but if someone claiming to represent you burned down some other people’s houses and killed their families, which outraged the people who murdered your family into thinking they should murder your family so you wouldn’t support the guys who murdered the other family in your name, it would have been provoked.”
See how clunky that is?
It may be they’re using those reasons you yourself alluded to (our support of Israel, our base on Saudi soil, Iraq war/sanctions) merely as a recruiting tool, but it sure seems to be an effective recruiting tool to get people to willingly kill themselves to get us out of the middle east and bankrupt our country, doesn’t it? So… maybe we shouldn’t have been doing that shit? Maybe we shouldn’t be assassinating Iranian leaders, or siding with Saddam to gas people, or turning against the guys we sided with when it’s no longer convenient, or building bases on other countries’ soil, or permanently siding with some countries over others no matter what, or otherwise not minding our own damn business? I’d be pretty pissed too if some big country did that to us and refused to “let” us have the same WMD’s that they had, so we wouldn’t get uppity and be able to resist their overpowering us.
Of course, none of this was the fault of the people who were on those planes or in those towers! So they were murdered, and the people who did it, whatever their motivation and anger, were unjust in their homicide. But the people who are responsible are much harder targets than we innocent citizens are, so the innocent bore the brunt of it unjustly, and the bad foreign policy continues, even worse than before.
Either that, or they hated us for our freedomz to take knives on a plane, and we should do everything in our power to curtail our own freedomz so no one hates us anymore.
Planes existed on 9/11 because people saw them? Never in the history of aviation crash investigations has ANY number of witnesses EVER verified a plane or a plane crash. Just ask the witnesses of TWA 800. Only wreckage and debris verifies a plane or plane crash. After 8 years not one single piece of debris from ANY of the 4 planes from ANY of the 4 locations of 9/11 has EVER been verified in ANY way by ANYONE. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. The US military, government, and military corporation owned US media staged 9-11 for the ability to make trillions and allow themselves the ability to kill millions. Just like the WMD’s in Iraq…..which was brought to you by the very same criminals.
ps….Since videos are so important to you….when can anyone ever see the videos of any of the 256 “passengers” at any of the airports from 9-11?
The average weight and height of the “highjackers” on 9-11 was 5’8″ 140 lbs!!!! These boys had 1 inch knives and killed everyone on board. Even though over 85% of every single passenger on board the planes of 9-11 had intensive military combat training….they could do nothing. Not one single pilot out of 8, inlcuding copilots, managed a distress or emergency call.
You argument here assumes several things. One, you assume that the middle east is one homogenous unit, which it is not.
Bin Laden’s group is largely Saudi which is about as far away from Iran culturally and politically as you can get not to mention that the Iranian people are not Arabic and take great offence (in my experience) to being considered as such. The gassing you mention happened to the Kurds (who again aren’t Arabic and weren’t involved in 9.11) and our support of Mr. Hussein is quite up to speculation. Your assassination attempt perhaps refers to the two attempts on the Shah’s life, who, of course, we stupidly supported, but have very little bearing on any statements that Bin Laden has ever made. Again, none of the 9.11 hijackers were Iranian. Both Iran and Iraq have long deplored Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, the former likely due to it’s Saudi connections and hatred of the oil business and the latter due to Iraq being a secular state.
While you are correct to assert that our supposed deep ties to Mr. Hussein (i sincerely question how deep our “support’ was, and whether it was a matter of convenience) and the Shah the Shah were mistaken, to use this to justify the actions of a few religious nutjobs is extremely short-sighted. You essentially provide people on the level of Timothy McVeigh and Charles Manson with a get-out-jail-free card and seek to blame the victim.
Really, BA, did you read the book I sent you? It’s only 17 pages long but it will give you great pause to insinuate that 9.11 could have been prevented by any set of policy decisions. It’s even more distrurbing when you realize that the majority of it had to be written in 1949. Bin Laden could have written it yesterday.
The truth is, that we maintain deep ties to many countries in the middle east that aren’t of the grand conspiratorial flavor that you might feel the need to imply. Perhaps you believe the United States should isolate itself, but the truth is, aside from it’s many faults, the United States spreads a lot of good around the world and has created democracy, freedom and religious tolerance in areas where it never existed before (Japan comes to mind). I really would shudder to think of what the world would be like if we had taken an isolationist route during WWII.
My opinion is that it is not a mistake to support Israel. Israel is a multi party democracy whose citizens include a number of American people. We have no choice but to support them. It is, however, a mistake to support and put on a friendly face to medieval governments like that of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who create environments where wacko groups like Al Qaeda can thrive.
First, I would like to congratulate ourselves for finally getting hooked into a 9/11 thread.
Second, no shit there’s a difference between all the countries, ethnicities, and sects of Islam in the middle east. I am widening the scope of who hates us now because of our intervening in the middle east beyond Al Qaeda.
Third, I’m probably not going to read any book you or anyone else demands that I read just because you post it.
Fourth, there’s a difference between noninterventionism and isolationism, as you probably know by now, or should. Japan attacked us. They were allies with Germany, they declared war on us, we went to war, we won. I’m just as concerned that our bases left over in Europe and Asia make people hate us and bankrupt our treasury too.
Fifth, we are in no way obligated to form a permanent alliance with any country that has not become one of the United States of America. That’s what political boundaries are for. Israel has shown that it is entirely capable of defending itself.
Sixth, I’m not implying any grand conspiracies. What’s the conspiracy?
7th, I’ve repeatedly stated I’m not blaming the victems, nor am I justifying the actions of the murderers who victemized them, as anyone can plainly read.
I’m sorry BA, I had thought that you were implying that Al Qaeda should dictate our foreign policy. Forgive me for misunderstanding you. I don’t know where I got that idea.
I know that you will not read it, but I would suggest that you do, since you might find that you have a lot in common with Mr. Bin Laden. He basically makes your case for you.
“Among the most important of what I read in them was some prose in their gestures before the collapse, where they say: “How mistaken we were to have allowed the White House to implement its aggressive foreign policies against the weak without supervision.”
It is as if they were telling you, the people of America: “Hold to account those who have caused us to be killed, and happy is he who learns from others’ mistakes.””
The entire text of his speech on Oct, 2004 can be found here:
http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/1964.cfm
There is NO video of ANY passenger boarding any plane from any of the airports from 9-11. Not one video of anyone checking baggage, buying tickets, going through security, or boarding any planes. There were videos of “Arabs” shown immediately after 9-11 going through a security checkpoint though the day, time, and airport location is not on 9-11!! Over 80+ videos of a “plane” at the Pentagon were confiscated and destroyed by the FBI on the morning of 9-11. They will never been seen. At the exact spot were the “nose of the plane” hit at the Pentagon…it had more than 6 cameras pointing directly at the helo-pad. All have been confiscated and can never be seen because of “national security”?!!! There are no videos of anyone at any parking garage from any of the airports from 9-11. There is not one video of any family member of any of the passengers at any of the airports. All the video at ground zero has been confiscated. This includes ALL video that was taken in and around the city 2-4 weeks BEFORE 9-11. Why? You would see the demolition companies going in and out of the WTC’s 1,2,5,6,and 7 days, weeks, and months BEFORE 9-11. All the video from all the cameras at ground zero has been confiscated. Every single video ever shown of “planes” from 9-11 was vetted by the FBI BEFORE you saw it. Every single one. On the day of 9-11 a total of 7 SECONDS of video was given to the world as proof of an airplane crash. Amazing when you consider that dozens of helicopter flights were recording WTC2 before the crash. ALL the film combined from these cameras on the day of 9-11 totaled 7 seconds!!!
The reason you will find constant and never ending problems with supposed video of 9-11 is because there were no commercial planes on 9-11. Just like the WMD’s in Iraq….it was staged by the US military and government to spend trillions and kill millions.
A pleasure to be reliving the glory days of the Republican Primary debates here on Mark’s blog.
Taking our marching orders from Al Qaeda, blah blah blah.
Well, they can’t be wrong all the time. Most of the time, maybe, although their response is to up the asshole level even more (Iraq).
Incidentally, I was only speaking of events up to 9.11.
Who said anything about videos?
Just nix everything I’ve said. I’m sorry to have posted any of this here. It’s a subject that interests me and I shouldn’t involve other people.
I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.
…wait… doesn’t Bin Ladin’s speech kinda prove my point exactly? He gives our meddling foreign policy as the reason behind the attacks. Straight from the ass’s mouth. What more do you want? He even acknowledges his strategy is to bleed us dry like the Soviets by entangling us in an economically lop-sided fight. He’s spelling it all out, and still we’re playing right into his hands. I used to be all ra-ra about the Iraq undeclaredWar and all that too, but that was before I knew for real why they attacked us and all the evil our government has done over there. We’ve just passed the 1 trillion deficit mark for the first time in history because of all these unconstitutional wars and unconstitutional stimulus/bailout stuff. If we don’t voluntarily adopt a noninterventionist foreign policy, and start being fiscally responsible here at home, we’ll be forced to when our economy collapses like the Soviets’ did. Looks like the terrorists are winning, I’d say. Just because someone’s more evil than you doesn’t mean you can do all the wrong you want and still win.
Oh sorry, you posted that while I was writing mine.
Let’s have a mutual forfeit so no one loses face.
Ok, sounds good.
Right now EVERY member of Congress says that there were commercial planes on 9/11. That is a LIE. There were NO commercial planes on 9/11. Every member of Congress that says there were commercial planes on 9/11 is harboring and protecting the criminals and terrorists who committed 9/11. Every member of Congress who says there were commercial planes on 9/11 MUST be charged with TREASON for harboring and protecting these criminals. There were NO commercial planes on 9/11. You must SUE every member of Congress for lying and harboring the murderers of 9/11. Take the case to court. After 8 years not one single case has verified the debris from the “planes’ of 9/11. Congress has NEVER investigated 9/11. They spent millions asking a man about steroid use though NEVER investigated 9/11. They are harboring the terrorists. To harbor a terrorist is to be a terrorist. Any member of Congress that says there were commercial planes on 9/11 must be charged with TREASON for harboring a terrorist.
Every media outlet that says there were commercial planes on 9/11 is LYING! There were no commercial planes on 9/11. After 8 years NOT ONE SINGLE PIECE of debris from the planes of 9/11 has EVER been verified in ANY WAY from ANY of the supposed planes from ANY location on 9/11. Take these criminals to court and force them to prove there were planes. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. Any plane-hugger that says there were is a murderous LIAR…
You “no plane/no video” people…are goofy. Are you really serious? Maybe they took all that video, and were compiling it for some cool new reality TV program. Now, you ruined it for the rest of us. Way to go, jerk-faces! Seriously though…get a life. Everything bad that happens is NOT a conspiracy of your government. Yes, there are clandestine operations that happen. Yes, there are things they do, that you are kept in the dark about. But what you are talking about is just dumb. Get a life. Maybe, you should put all of your powers of investigation into something constructive, that would really help people out.
There were NO TWIN TOWERS on 9/11! NOT ONE! NO video evidence has ever surfaced of ANY such building as the “World Trade Center,” which in ancient Hebrew numerology adds up to the number 665, which when you add 1 for how many gallons of fluoride it takes each day to believe the Government’s version of 9/11, equals 666!
SHUT UP YOU DINGUS!!!
You’d think anyone schizo enough to believe this stuff would be afraid to post anything online, what with the CIA and who knows who else reading all their posts and waiting to jump them when they get home from work and take them to a secret facility to be anally raped and waterboarded by Blackwater guards, who by-the-way paid me $50,000 to post this.
Billy, there is only one “no-plane” person posting here. They just keep posting under different names. I am sure Mark can confirm this by looking at the IPs the posts came from.
The “no-planes” claim is absurd. It serves as nothing but noise to drown out any intelligent discussion.
It was good to see some people come in and bring the level of discourse up a bit on this thread.
Does anyone here ever get together in person to chat about these sorts of things? I think it would be interesting, and far more productive.
I do not know of anyone who ever gets together to talk of these things. Mostly, I keep them to myself since people tend to fall asleep. Most people do not care.
Yes, I think you are right about that, Dude. People simply don’t care, which explains to a great degree why they have almost no knowledge or understanding of any of it. They don’t care, so they don’t look into any of it. And they don’t look into any of it, so they don’t know enough to care.
Robert…..there were no commercial planes on 9/11. Not one single piece of debris or wreckage from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations on 9/11 has ever been verified in any way by anyone on the planet. The US has spent trillions and killed millions because of this lie. To say this “claim is obsurd” is the same thing that was said about no WMD’s in Iraq. There were no commercial planes on 9/11. If this Mark person has my IP address is he going to harm me or threaten me? There were NO commercial planes on 9/11. If you say there were you are a LIAR and should be charged with the deaths of the millions of people who have died in the name of that continued lie. To protect and harbor a criminal or terrorist is to be a terrorist. By continuing to deny the FACT that there were no commercial planes on 9/11 by legal definition makes YOU a terrorist. There were NO commercial planes on 9/11. The war on terror is base on a lie. All of it.
The definition of a shill or troll on a website is to continue to come back to a discussion that you completely disagree with and continue to post to change and alter the discourse. That is what mildec is designed for. That’s the definition of an agent. A big topic that agents watch out for is any talk about the fact that there were no commercial planes on 9/11. It is essential to the US military and government to maintain the lie. So what else do you have? Witnesses, passengers, video, photos, too big to succeed, families of the passengers, simple put downs, questioning intelligence, need to get a life, forcing the issues with only your questions that must be answered immediately? These are all tactics of a common shill.
I really think that most folks would like to break it down into “good guys” and “bad guys” and want to spend more time finger pointing and hunting for villians than spending time trying to understand why things happen. It’s really easy for us to say after the fact that something worked or didn’t, was “good” or “bad”. It’s much harder to look at processes that lead to events and the larger contexts which birth them.
Truth is, that most people would rather bitch and whine than read a book.
Wait, you know this.
What’s 911?
I’m not sure, since there’s no evidence it even exists.
I agree with the idea that broader contexts are often left out, but I don’t really know what “most people” really want since broader contexts are rarely provided by the most accessible sources: the news media.
To the no-planer:
You are right. I AM an agent. If you post another no-plane comment to this thread, I’ll be coming to your house to arrest you and ship you off to Gitmo.
The definition of a troll or agent is someone who continually comes back to a forum on a website talking about 9/11 and writing and responding about information they can not stand and then demanding that someone is not allowed to type something that they dislike?!!!!
There were no commercial planes on 9/11. You are a liar Robert. Because of the lie that you continue to promote over 2 million civilians have been murdered. By law….that makes you an accessary to murder.
“Most people” don’t even exist. Not a SINGLE person has EVER been interviewed nor has a SINGLE SECOND of video EVER been seen of ANY PEOPLE, EVER. You have been lied to. The sooner you come to realize that, the sooner you realize that YOUR WHOLE LIFE IS BASE ON A FABRICATED LIE.
Definition, you can’t say I didn’t warn you. I’ve put you on the national security list. Soon agents will be visiting you.
Agent Mark, I am going to need the IP information from the no-planer’s posts. They know too much. They must be silenced. We’ll have to send the special containment unit out to take care of this individual. They are a national security threat.
Whatever. I am right here. I’ve never hid anything. My IP information is for anyone in the world to access. There is no need to threaten. The truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11 will never fear any threat. I will leave a light on for you.
You say terrible things about Robert, but, from personal experience I can tell you, he is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life.
Missing Time, you keep talking like that and you you’ll be hearing from my lawyers. I’ll have a libel suit slapped on you so fast you won’t know what hit you.
And, Agent Maynard, it appears the no-planer is ready for us at their home. It might be best if we get them when they are out shopping or something.
Hypothetical phone call from an airline company to the airline insurance representative after 911:
IC: “Hello…How may I help you?”
AC: Yes….I have 4 planes insured with you guys and they all crashed on 911 and I was calling to see when I can get my insurance money for my loss.
IC: “OK….that’s horrible. Let’s see…. where did this happen?
AC: Well….2 planes hit the WTC’s in NYC another plane hit the Pentagon, and one crashed into a field in PA. When can I get my money?
IC: “Well here at Bob’s Plane insurance we want you to receive your money asap. All we will need to do is inspect and verify the wreckage and the ID numbers on the 4 planes so that we can get you your money as quickly as possible. What are the exact locations so that we can send out our inspectors?”
AC: Well…..that’s a problem. You see there is absolutely NO WRECKAGE of ANY KIND but we do have lots of eyewitnesses and lots of video and film. When can I get my money?
IC: “I understand sir. It’s just that to pay you all we must do is simply verify that the plane that crashed was the plane that you say it was. It’s simply a matter of looking at any of the 3.1 million pieces that make up a standard 767. If 4 of them crashed that should be pretty easy. That’s almost 13 million parts of aircraft. When can we inspect the wreckage?”
AC: Well….you can’t. We have eyewitnesses and video.
IC: “Sir I understand. It’s just that we have never paid a claim simply by an eyewitness or video. All we go by is the wreckage. Certainly there were black boxes or voice data recorders that we could verify other than witnesses or video?”
AC: “Are you calling all of our eyewitnesses liars? Are you calling all of our video, film, and photos faked and staged? Are you saying that the pain felt by the victims is somehow not real? Are saying that Bush lied and that you hate our troops?”
IC: “Sir…I understand…it’s just that you are calling about being paid millions of dollars with not one single piece of verifiable evidence of any kind. As an airline insurance company…you must understand that we would be out of business in minutes if all that was needed to file a claim was an eyewitness, a photo, and NO WRECKAGE. Can we at least inspect or test the sites?
AC: No…..take it or leave it. All we have is what the media told us and what our eyewitnesses said they may have seen…although none of them were under oath. When can we get our money?
IC: “Sir…with all due respects….call us when we can inspect ANY form of wreckage. Goodbye.”
AND NOW REAL LIFE: As of this writing not one dime has been paid to any of the airline companies that lost planes on 911 from insurance. Why? Because the insurance companies investigating the crashes have NEVER VERIFIED A SINGLE PIECE OF WRECKAGE FROM ANY OF THE 4 PLANES AT ANY OF THE 4 LOCATIONS ON 911. They pay only by wreckage. Over $15 Billion dollars was released to the heads of the airlines within 2 weeks of 911. American Airlines got $900 million within a week of 911. Would that buy your silence and complicity to mass murder? It did them…….. In terms of “what about the passengers”? Those ‘families” were paid $8 Billion dollars and they had to sign documents that said they could never sue and never discuss 911!!! How’s that for plausible deniability? Research Flight 77. Over 90% of the passengers had intense military combat training, though men weighing on average 140lbs….standing on average 5’ 6”……held these men and woman at bay to their deaths with 1 inch knives??!!!! Yeh RIGHT!!! The White House also passed a global gag order to ANY worker of the government, police, military, or any agency that works with the government to never discuss 911. Ever. They sent FBI agents into the hospital bedrooms of injured Pentagon workers threatening them……and said…”Take the money, shut up, and there WERE planes”!!! Our military owned media, criminal government and business will be brought to light much more now that Bush is out of office.
No-planer, most of what you said above, posting under the name Susan this time, is true. However, your jump to the conclusion that there were no planes does not logically follow from your premises.
When evidence is missing or unavailable for examination, it is not logical to conclude that it never existed, because there are other possible explanations. To speak in terms which suggest those other possibilities have been eliminated is not logical.
For example, it is not necessary for the prosecution in a murder case to present the murder weapon in order to obtain a conviction. Murder weapons can be destroyed. This doesn’t mean they never existed. So, in these instances where the weapon cannot be produced, convincing circumstantial evidence of the prior existence of the weapon is sufficient for conviction. Records, eyewitness testimony, and wounds consistent with the claimed weapon are all admissible. Multiple videos of the weapon, at the scene of the crime especially, would be very strong evidence of the existence of said weapon.
When is the world going to be able to verify a single piece of debris from any of the 4 planes from 9-11? There were no commercial planes on 9-11. The war on terror is based on a lie.
The answer to your question, no-planer, is ‘never’. The Bush Administration destroyed the evidence you keep asking about. There is no way to examine any of it now. I answered your question. See how easy that is? You should try it sometime.
http://www.cracked.com/article_15740_was-911-inside-job.html
There were no commercial planes on 9-11. I keep tying because I enjoy watching people like robert continually come back and post on a forum section about a topic he completely disagrees with? that the definition of insanity. Of course he will be back again just to answer this post. He will always come back and post here about something he cannot stand to hear or write about. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Why would it surprise anyone that the Bush’s destroyed the evidence of the largest mass murder in US history?! There were no commercial planes on 9-11. There was no plane debris to destroy. The war on terror is all based on a fraud.
Noah’s Ark took out the World Trade Center. It’s a fact.
Dinosaur remains were found at ground zero!
Bible…that’s halarious! Millions of people have been killed so far in a never ending global war on terror based on the lies of 9-11. And you’re saying that a biblical reference was to blame in a humorous take on another lie regarding religion. That’s halarious!
Actually, no-planer (aka Jill this time), Bible Man has a better grasp of reality than you do. This thread is about the crash of Flight 3407. It’s not about your insane fantasies. Speaking of which, Agent Maynard has forwarded me your IP information and we are pinpointing your location so that we can identify you. You talk too much, and you have to be silenced. You’re teaching too many people the real truth. We can’t have that.
P.S. No-planer, do you have anything to say about the actual topic of this thread? You do believe in the existance of Flight 3407 don’t you? Did that plane not exist either?
The US invaded Iraq, killed millions of people, and spent trillions of dollars all because of WMD’s. That was a lie. Other than what the US sold Iraq there were no WMD’s in Iraq. It was a staged and conspired lie.
The US invaded Afghanistan, killed millions of people, and spent trillions of dollars all because 4 commercial planes crashed on 9-11. That was a lie. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. It exposes the US military, government, and military owned US media to charges of mass murder. 9-11 was a staged and conspired lie.
The US invaded Iran………..
At one point in my life I was an eternal optimist. I “believed” things because I was told by authorities that they were true. Then one day…that ended. I had begun researching the levee detonations that followed Katrina (can you fathom that our government would stage explosions to harm people? On this site I would hope so.) After numerous phone calls to police, Attorneys, lawyers, government officials, dozens of media and more in New Orleans and nationwide…..I was paid a visit by 3 Homeland Security Agents that said if I didn’t stop causing trouble(investigating) the events surrounding the levee detonations that they would kill me and my entire family. And this was my only warning. My optimism died that day.
I had discovered information about a company called CDI, Controlled Demolition Inc that had been brought into New Orleans by ACEngineers and Joe Allbaugh from Blackwater. Mr. Allbaugh was also head of FEMA during 911. Since my research regarding media involvement, government, politicians, law enforcement, legal, religion, Humane Society, Red Cross I have discovered something horrible and mind numbingly horrific. What is it? It is the fact that everything we have been told by “authorities to believe’ is all a complete criminal lie. All of it.
Rigged elections, staged events for war, bribed and conspired law enforcement and legal system, corporate owned and manipulated media at every turn, murdered and suicided instigators, bogus trials and charges, criminal politicians from blackmail to extortion, millions on legal drugs to kill us and millions more incarcerated from drugs that never have…….the line of items is extensive.
I have come to only one conclusion. Leave this country. Many Germans left before during and after WWII that cared very deeply about their country. That never meant they disliked their country they simply despised what it had become. The US is not dealing with a few bad apples, we are dealing with the fact that EVERY SINGLE TREE is rotten to the core. That means it’s time to leave. Never pay US taxes and get out as quickly as you can. From what I have heard in the bible even that creator came down and killed everyone once he saw how horrific things had become. Maybe that is just the solution. Clean slate.
Today the US killed 450 people because of the “war on terror”. The war on terror was created because 4 commercial planes crashed on 9-11. That is a lie. There were NO commercial planes on 9-11. The never ending global US war on terror is a fraud. As you were reading this post the US killed another person because of the 4 planes that crashed on 9-11. The event of 9-11 may be over but the NEVER ENDING global war has yet to even begin. If left unchecked, it is possible that the US could murder over ONE BILLION people if and when this never ending war is over. Even though the 911 event was 8 years ago, the US government is spending trillions of dollars, torturing without charges 100’s of thousands, all because of the continued lies of 9-11.
There were no commercial planes on 9-11. The government spends alot of money to go to websites like this one a tell you to never understand the truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
Q: “I am deeply saddened by those who go the “no planes” route”
A: Shills and trolls will always be saddened when you learn the truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11. Trillions of dollars in business and millions of jobs are at stake should you learn the truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11. Just verify the debris and only go by verifiable evidence for a plane crash. Each plane from 9-11 had 3.1 million verifiable pieces. NONE has ever been verified!
Q: “ It ridicules the truthers.”
A: The “vanity defense” is no longer effective. The world is learning the tactic of “discredit, harming, ridiculing, or making us look bad” with regards to your movement, cult, group, or agency as a form of shill. First…..not everyone is in your “truth group” or movement. The truth will never care if you feel ridiculed or harm by it. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. If the truth harms or discredits you that is your problem not ours.
Q: “93 was shot down most likely.”
A: MOST LIKELY?!!!! The US has killed 5 million people based on that plane and you say most likely? Shouldn’t you know for damn sure!!?? Simply verify the debris. Wait….there isn’t any. Shanksville tested negative for jet fuel. None of the relatives from flight 93 took a single penny from the US payout. Every family member from a supposed passenger aboard flt 93 rejected the $1.8 million dollar tax-free payout!!! ALL OF THEM! Every one of those family members were so well off they didn’t even take it and give it to charity. They simply rejected it! EVERY SINGLE FAMILY MEMBER!!!!
Q: “175 and 11 did fly into the twins”
A: Even if they say that the Pentagon and Shanksville may have been staged they will always try and maintain the lie about the planes in NYC. Why? Once you understand the truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11 it will expose the US media corporations to conspiracy to murder. The US media corporations are owned by the US military corporations (GE owns NBC, Westinghouse owns CBS). It will also expose the drug money laundering done during the insurance payouts. Not one single insurance company has verified a SINGLE PIECE of airliner debris…..yet paid out $40 Billion dollars within one month of 9-11?!!
Q: “Now, the Pentagon, that one I do question even though no plane does seem outrageous to most”
A: Again….they will start to concede at one location that there were no commercial planes on 9-11 but will always maintain the other locations. Think about that for a second. You’re telling me that a serial killer would kill at one location, though on the same day at the same time with the exact same methods would never kill at another location??!! Who cares if it “seems outrageous to most”?!!! That is the vanity defense again. The truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11 will never care if it seems outrageous. The WMD’s in Iraq never cared?
Q: “WE NEED A NEW 9/11 TOTALLY INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION.”
A: Its been 8 years and we’ve already had one investigation. When are we getting the independent JFK assassination investigation? New investigation is a rabbit hole. There never will be an independent investigation of 9-11. Its for you to focus on an never learn the truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11. Besides, the first thing an independent investigation would do is verify the plane debris and test the building materials for explosives?!!! They will quickly find there is NO debris and the material has all been removed and destroyed! Your investigation would be over in minutes.
Q: “Even if it just ends up being gross negligence and incompetence, we Americans deserve to know the truth”
A: Really? Even if it “saddens” you? The US military and government call it an “intelligence failure” never negligence or incompetence. The WMD’s in Iraq was an intelligence failure even though we are still there after 6 years spending trillions of dollars and killing millions of people. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. On Sept 12th 2001 the White House issued a statement saying that 9-11 was an “intelligence failure”!!! Even when the truth is given to you your reaction is to reject it and demand others reject it as well. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Can you handle the truth?
Q: “If you believe 19 Saudi’s with box cutters forced NORAD to stand down and the fighter jets to play keystone cops on 9/11, you are out of your frickin mind.”
A: Just one problem: That is the OFFICIAL story. Are you saying that the US media, military, and government is LYING TO YOU?!!! Are you saying that the official story is bogus and untrue?!! Though to hang on to one lie to protect another is somehow acceptable? There were no commercial planes on 9-11. The never ending global US war on terror is based entirely on a lie. All of it. If they are willing to lie on a dozen aspects what’s a few dozen more? There were no commercial planes on 9-11.
No-planer, again, I asked you about Flight 3407…you know, the topic of this thread. I read through all your rantings and never saw Flight 3407 mentioned. Are you trying to hide something? Are you part of a cover-up regarding the very existence of Flight 3407? You seem to avoid the topic like the plague. 3407! 3407! 3407!
Oh, and funbags, I knew the Humane Society had to be involved in the “conspiracy.” Those people are monsters.
Witnesses have never in aviation history verified a plane crash….EXCEPT ON 9-11. 9-11 became the FIRST and ONLY aviation disaster in world history in which witnesses and video “verified” a plane crash. Every other crash in world history had been verified through debris and wreckage. There could have been 1 trillion witnesses, only debris verifies a plane or a plane crash. After 8 years not one single piece of the debris from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations from 9-11 has ever been physically verified in any way by anyone. The FBI has now said it verified NOTHING and NEVER will with respects to “debris” because “we all saw it on TV”. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. To all the officers and former police on this forum……why is it that the debris should never be verified? I know….there were no commercial planes on 9-11. The US has killed millions of people based on that lie.
Hey Dana, the no-plana, have you ever tried communicating interactively with other human beings? It’s an experience worth trying.
People on this forum have a difficult time understanding English. Here goes again: Never in the history of aviation crash scene investigations has a “witness”, regardless of how many, EVER determined a plane crash. NEVER…..until 9-11. 9-11 is the ONLY aviation disaster in world history in which a “witness” verified a plane crash!!!! It has never happened before and it has not happened since. The posters on this forum STILL use “witnesses” as proof, evidence, and verification. Just to reiterate…..after 8 years….NOT ONE SINGLE SPECK OF DEBRIS FROM ANY OF THE 4 PLANES FROM ANY OF THE 4 LOCATIONS ON 9-11 HAS EVER BEEN INSPECTED, TESTED, ANALYZED, OR VERIFIED IN ANY WAY BY ANYONE!!!! That’s almost 13 MILLION pieces of debris and NONE has ever been verified. The FBI has said it verified NOTHING because “we all saw it on TV” (Once you understand that the US media outlets are owned by the top US military contractors you will know why they rely on “TV” to provide the “proof”.)
There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Copy and save all the posts that demand you “believe” the official story. During an aviation crash investigation “beliefs” are irrelevant. Only debris matters. 9-11 is the first and only aviation disaster (FOUR OF THEM) in which video and witnesses “verified” the debris. That’s as terrible as the witness of blood can determine whose it is? Witnesses and video of blood has never in crime scene history determined whose it was. You must physically TEST and verify the DNA and type. No amount of video or witnesses will determine the DNA or type. That is identical to an aviation disaster. Only physical verification means anything.
There were no commercial planes on 9-11.
Hmmm…. This isn’t crazy enough…. Let’s mix in a little Charlie Sheen and see what happens.
CS – Not exactly sir, but let’s be honest. You’re the President of the United States, the leader of the free world, the buck stops with you. 9/11 has been the pretext for the systematic dismantling of our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Your administration is reading from the same playbook that the Bush administration foisted on America through documented secrecy and deception.
PBO – Mr. Sheen, I’m having a difficult time sitting here and listening to you draw distorted parallels between the Bush/Cheney regime and mine.
CS – Mr. President the parallels are not distorted just because you say they are. Let’s stick to the facts. You promised to abolish the Patriot Act and then voted to re-authorize it. You pledged to end warrantless wire tapping against the American people and now energetically defend it. You decried the practice of rendition and now continue it. You promised over and over again on the campaign trail, that you would end the practice of indefinite detention and instead, you have expanded it to permanent detention of “detainees” without trial. This far exceeds the outrages of the former administration. Call me crazy Mr. President, but is this not your record?
Hypothetical phone call from an airline company to the airline insurance representative after 911:
IC: “Hello…How may I help you?”
AC: Yes….I have 4 planes insured with you guys and they all crashed on 911 and I was calling to see when I can get my insurance money for my loss.
IC: “OK….that’s horrible. Let’s see…. where did this happen?
AC: Well….2 planes hit the WTC’s in NYC another plane hit the Pentagon, and one crashed into a field in PA. When can I get my money?
IC: “Well here at Bob’s Plane insurance we want you to receive your money asap. All we will need to do is inspect and verify the wreckage and the ID numbers on the 4 planes so that we can get you your money as quickly as possible. What are the exact locations so that we can send out our inspectors?”
AC: Well…..that’s a problem. You see there is absolutely NO WRECKAGE of ANY KIND but we do have lots of eyewitnesses and lots of video and film. When can I get my money?
IC: “I understand sir. It’s just that to pay you all we must do is simply verify that the plane that crashed was the plane that you say it was. It’s simply a matter of looking at any of the 3.1 million pieces that make up a standard 767. If 4 of them crashed that should be pretty easy. That’s almost 13 million parts of aircraft. When can we inspect the wreckage?”
AC: Well….you can’t. We have eyewitnesses and video.
IC: “Sir I understand. It’s just that we have never paid a claim simply by an eyewitness or video. All we go by is the wreckage. Certainly there were black boxes or voice data recorders that we could verify other than witnesses or video?”
AC: “Are you calling all of our eyewitnesses liars? Are you calling all of our video, film, and photos faked and staged? Are you saying that the pain felt by the victims is somehow not real? Are saying that Bush lied and that you hate our troops?”
IC: “Sir…I understand…it’s just that you are calling about being paid millions of dollars with not one single piece of verifiable evidence of any kind. As an airline insurance company…you must understand that we would be out of business in minutes if all that was needed to file a claim was an eyewitness, a photo, and NO WRECKAGE. Can we at least inspect or test the sites?
AC: No…..take it or leave it. All we have is what the media told us and what our eyewitnesses said they may have seen…although none of them were under oath. When can we get our money?
IC: “Sir…with all due respects….call us when we can inspect ANY form of wreckage. Goodbye.”
AND NOW REAL LIFE: As of this writing not one dime has been paid to any of the airline companies that lost planes on 911. Why? Because the insurance companies investigating the crashes have NEVER VERIFIED A SINGLE PIECE OF WRECKAGE FROM ANY OF THE 4 PLANES AT ANY OF THE 4 LOCATIONS ON 911. They pay only by wreckage.
The reason that there will always be massive problems with the passenger lists is because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
The reason there will NEVER be a single piece of verified debris from ANY of the 4 planes from ANY of the 4 locations on 9-11 is because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
The reason that the buildings were demolished and detonated is because there was no jet fuel because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
The reason no “highjackers” names appear on ANY of the passenger lists on ANY of the 4 flights is because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
The reason that NO engines, NO tailsections, NO seats, NO fuselage, NO luggage, and NOTHING from any of the planes has ever been found and verified is because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
The reason that NONE of the 4 flights on 9-11 have take-off records is because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
The reason that NOT ONE PENNY has been paid from insurance companies to replace the planes themselves is because they pay only be verifiable debris….and there isn’t any….because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
The reason Bush threatened Congressman to never investigate 9-11, then delayed the investigation 18 months, then hand picked the Commission members, then gave them a $3 million dollar budget to investigate ALL of 9-11 (Clinton/Lewinsky scandal got $60 million to investigate!!), had Commission members quit because they said the Commission was a fraud because they were never going to be allowed to inspect the plane wreckage because of “national security”……is because there were no commercial planes on 9-11.
Hey no-planer (this time posting under the name “Heather”), you already posted that silly hypothetical phone call several weeks ago under the name “Susan.” You’re a broken record who can’t even answer simple questions. The crap you posted under the name “Jill” just now doesn’t even make enough sense to argue against.
It’s agood thing that Mark doesn’t moderate this site. Otherwise we’d all be missing out on these jewels of wisdom…all three or four of us who read this crazy shit.
Would a man’s name be easier on you? There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Denial is the first stage towards acceptance.
How about this wisdom? 19 Saudi Arabian men who could not read, write, or speak English….highjacked 4 commercial planes with one inch knives…while being commanded by a man with renal failure living in cave on the other side of the planet. Does that make it all better for you?
No-planer, why don’t you just go by your real first name? Or, even just stick with one fake one.
Just for the record, I am certain the official story is a fabrication. So I am not entirely in disagreement with you. You may have been to caught up in your own mental state to notice though.
Since, in reality, there are really only one or two other people besides us reading our comments here, why don’t we just have an interactive discussion regarding some of the details we disagree upon? I think it would make more sense.
Robert…there were no commercial planes on 9-11. I have never said there were no-planes. There may very well have been something that looked like a commercial plane…I don’t know! What I do know is that there were no commercial planes on 9-11. That’s what 9-11 was?!!! 9-11 was commercial planes with those horrible tERRORists on board. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Nothing has ever been verified.
It just a few months a 3 book series and a film are going to be released. It will all be free online. Its called: There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Implications and Solutions. It connects ALL the dots. It has over 500 video and audio threats made by media and political “authorities” over a 4 year time span regarding any questions with regards to 9-11 and the “planes”!! You’ve never seen anything like it. The number of death threats and retaliation threats made by media and political/law that were caught on video and audio are into the 1000’s. There were no commercial planes on 9-11. It exposes a great deal. Anyone promoting such a truth will certainly have their days numbered?
There were no commercial planes on 9-11.
Hey no-commercial-planer, tina/bob, thank you for finally answering my question regarding whether or not you believed there were planes at all. I can’t believe how long it took to get that out of you. I mean, I asked that question back on May 28th! But, I do appreciate you including that answer finally in your comments.
I have some more fuel to add to your fire, tina/bob. Did you know that shortly after 9/11, Lufthansa, the German airline, stripped the American made computer flight control systems out of their entire fleet and replaced them with German made systems? The official reason given was because the American made systems allowed for remote control overrides. It appears the German intelligence services know something the American public doesn’t.
I’ve joined the organization, Pilots for 9/11 Truth.
Here’s their site: http://pilotsfor911truth.org/index.html
Because there were no commercial planes on 9-11….you will never need “pilots for truth”. THERE WERE NO COMMERCIAL PLANES!!! The need for a “pilot” without a plane is not neccessary. Your group, cult, agency, truth movers, movement are set up ONLY to never allow discussion of the truth that there were no commercial planes on 9-11. Has any of these pilots verified a single piece of debris yet? NO! And they never will, and they will never ask to verify anything. If you have a pilot…there must be a plane right?! There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Pilots for truth are not needed.
ps….you use the word “believe” WAYYYYY too many times in your response. When investigating and verifying a plane or plane crash the word “believe” is irrelevant. You should never “believe” a plane crashed….this not a ghost sighting, church, or a UFO. ITS A PLANE CRASH. Simply go over to the debris and verify any of the 12 million time-stamped parts from any of the planes. There are none. Not one…..nothing. Nothing has EVER been verified in any way by anyone. Where is the NTSBfor911truth? The NTSB was forbidden from going to ANY of the sites on 9-11. Why? They only go by debris.
There were no commercial planes on 9-11. Wait for the books and film. It will become much clearer for you.
Bubs (no-planer), that last one was the funiest yet. I guess you are joking. I wasn’t sure. Still, it was a long way to go just to make a joke.
Robert….I have NEVER said there were “no-planes”. YOU…even after all this time….are still unable to type “NO COMMERCIAL PLANES ON 9-11”. Why? There may very well have been a plane…it could have been a military plane. No one knows because not one single piece of debris has ever been verified…..yet you still claim there were 4 commercial planes on 9-11 without a single piece of verifiable debris. Even though witnesses, video, and photos have NEVER in aviation history verified a plane of plane crash…..that is what you are basing your “evidence” on.
Oh, ok, Bubs, I understand. But still I just have one question for you.
Were there commercial planes on 9-11?
…oh and has one single piece of debris ever been verified?
Damn it, no-planer! The suspense is killing me! I need to know; Were there commercial planes on 9-11, and was any debris ever been verified!?
There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11
You made me wait 12 days on that one! Oh, and I noticed you added the word “crashes” this time. Why is that?
Does anyone else think that Robert has been having this discussion with himself for the past 6 months?
Reminds me of Fight Club.
It’s a good theory, Ellen. I’d like to think though that if I were having this conversation with myself my no-planer alternate ego would seem much more interactive.
I’m certain that any imaginary friends I might have would be considerably more informed and capable of making reasoned statements than anybody I’ve seen on Mark’s blog.
Why do you keep talking about “Mark’s blog”? Who is this Mark? And what’s a blog?
And why won’t you make eye contact with the other patients in the ward, Robert?
I guess I should just be relieved that you made a comment without directly referencing a movie for once, Ellen.
There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. After 8 years…not one single piece of verifiable debris from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations on 9-11 has ever been physically verified in any way by anyone. Witnesses, video, film, or photos have NEVER in aviation history physically verified a plane or plane crash….only wreckage does. Each plane had over 2 million time-stamped parts that could immediately ID it anywhere in the world. Not one single piece has ever been found.
There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. The never ending global US war on terror is a murderous fraud for the ability to borrow trillions and kill millions in a war without end.
No-commercial-planer, you are making an inverse error in logic when you say that there were no commercial plane crashes on 9/11. It’s a formal error called “denying the antecedent.”
“If A then B” does not logically translate to “If not A than not B.”
dana
there were pieces witnessed and photographed at the WTC on rooftop of nearby building- the pieces are clearly marked with yellow stencil sprayed code numbers as per standard. pentagon , shanksville – both very dodgy but the twin towers- parts there, definitely. some ground level photos available too
dana:
email me dont3fanATgmailDOTcom
Douglas…there were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. The piece you are refering to whose picture was taken by the same FEMA photographer from the OKCity bombing, was from the WTC5 building. It was “discovered” after 5 weeks on top of the building even though it was never seen by aerial photos up unitl THAT DAY. You say that spray painting debris is “standard” during an aviation crash scene investigation? It actually destroys the evidence and opens charges of tampering making the piece worthless. Though lets accept it and move on. Second…..the very piece you are talking about HAS NO SERIAL NUMBERS!!!! No piece from any of the 4 planes from 9-11 has ever been verified by a serial numbered piece. The FBI in 2008 said it tested NOTHING with regards to ANY debris from ANY of the 4 planes from 9-11 because “we all saw it on TV”…and we had “no reason to doubt what we were shown”. Nothing has ever been verified. The reason? There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11.
A photo of a plane part as verification is like the photo of blood to determine its type?!!!! Impossible and irrelevant. After 8 years not one single piece of debris from any of the 4 planes on 9-11 has ever been verified in any way by anyone. These murderers can show you anything….its verifying it that is never allowed. Because of “national security” no one can ever see and verify the parts that were already “shown”. In particular the 3 “engines” that were found and shown. Immediately you can see they are not the correct size. The FBI has allowed NO verification of the engines in which THEY showed you?!?!!
here are a lot of photos
more than one piece
peace
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/6659.jpg/6659-full.jpg&imgrefurl=http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/aircraftpartsnyc911&h=397&w=600&sz=47&tbnid=d52PKU_uB_uxoM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscaffoldrider%2Bphoto&usg=__UdJsqz_qBFHoX8HKBzpmrKJgykA=&ei=L1PeSqHQM4S04QaFh8gX&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&ved=0CBEQ9QEwAg
douglas, I think the point dana is trying to make is that no *commercial* planes hit those buildings, with emphasis on “commercial”. The photos you linked to neither prove nor disprove that claim.
Again…you are using PHOTOS to physically verify a plane crash. That has never been done in aviation history UNTIL 9-11!!!!! Stop using something that has NEVER verified a plane or a plane crash as “proof” of a plane crash. Only wreckage verifies a plane crash. NONE of the “debris” shown in ANY photos from the FBI and FEMA has EVER been physically verified in any way. why? there were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11.
dana u claim that no commercial planes hit the twin towers
do u claim that something hit the twin towers or that nothing hit the twin towers?
if u claim that planes hit the towers but they weren’t commercial then what types of planes does that leave- military?
douglas
This is still being discussed? Get a life. Planes crashed into the towers. They were commercial. We also landed on the moon.
I demand to know where David Copperfield was on 9/11.
Q: “dana u claim that no commercial planes hit the twin towers”
R: I never said that. I said there were NO commercial plane crashes on 9-11. That includes the WTC’s, Shanksville, and the Pentagon. It was all a staged lie. All of it. Don’t try and verify the debris because you will be threatened by almost agency in the government if you do. There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. That means that the ONE TRILLION dollar a year war must end. That’s alot of money in business to have just disappear overnite. Millions of people make their livelyhoods of this world-wide lie and fraud.
Q: “do u claim that something hit the twin towers or that nothing hit the twin towers?”
A: There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. I have no idea what these murderers used to kill all those people. I dont want to know. All you need to know is that there were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. Have you studied the demolitions of the WTC’s yet. The reason demolitions were used was because there was no jet fuel because there were no commercial planes on 9-11. Have you researched exactly WHO the 256 “passengers” were from those flights?
Q: “if u claim that planes hit the towers but they weren’t commercial ”
R: I have never claimed that anything hit anywhere. There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. If no planes…then the war on terror is a murderous fraud….just like the staged lies and fraud of WMD’s in Iraq.
Verify the debris from any of the 4 planes on 9-11. You cant. There isnt any. No piece of debris ever shown in media from 9-11 has ever been verified as having come from any of the planes from 9-11. Why? Because there were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. It was all lie to borrow trillions and kill millions in a never ending war.
The no-planer post-bot seems to operate on a sensor and not a timer. If I’m right, this comment from me should trip it to post again.
Why is this conversation taking place here? Doesn’t Art Bell have a website?
Of course there’s an Art Bell site, but it’s been long since highjacked by reptile aliens in order to consuct their misinformation campaign. MarkMaynard.com is now our only hope.
Tuesday, the NTSB issued a press release regarding their findings in the crash of flight 3407.
See it here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2010/100202.html
The summery in the NTSB’s probable cause report reads as follows:
“PROBABLE CAUSE
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain’s inappropriate response to the activation of the stick shaker, which led to an aerodynamic stall from which the airplane did not recover. Contributing to the accident were (1) the flight crew’s failure to monitor airspeed in relation to the rising position of the low-speed cue, (2) the flight crew’s failure to adhere to sterile cockpit procedures, (3) the captain’s failure to effectively manage the flight, and (4) Colgan Air’s inadequate procedures for airspeed selection and management during approaches in icing conditions.”
Of course, this is not the entire story. Naturally, there are circumstances, causes and conditions which can be further examined.
On February 9th, at 9pm, PBS is scheduled to air an edition of the investigative program FRONTLINE which further details the conditions under which commuter pilots operate.
See the link to the FRONTLINE site:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/
In the year since the crash of flight 3407, there has been considerable speculation regarding the possibility of sabotage. This suspicion arose primarily due to the identities of some who were passengers on the ill fated flight, including Beverly Eckert, who was an activist concerned with full disclosure of the details surrounding the 9/11 attacks and subsequent official inquiry.
Having followed the Flight 3407 case fairly closely, I have found absolutely no indication that investigators have repressed or misreported any details whatsoever.
It should be pointed out here that the NTSB is charged solely with accident investigation. I only say this because it seems that there is a prevalent attitude out there which seeks to equate NTSB final reports with those of criminal investigative agencies. So let me make this clear; The NTSB does not conduct criminal investigations – nor are they equipped or staffed to. Only in the event that the NTSB (or anyone else in an official capacity or with relevant knowledge) encounters detail which suggests possible criminal involvement would a criminal investigative agency be called in. In this case, it would be the FBI.
So in all fairness, no criminal investigation (that I know of) has been conducted regarding the crash of Flight 3407.
Even so, all details I have seen regarding the crash and NTSB investigation have been consistent with one-another, with the official reporting, and with my own knowledge of the subject matter.
Therefore, my conclusion is that this was a genuine accident. I’m always open for debate of course.
Do whatever you need to do to avoid physically verifing a single piece of plane debris from any of the 4 planes from any of the 4 locations of 9-11. If it means talking about other planes then so be it. There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. Just like the WMD’s in Iraq…anyone who thinks there were plane crashes on 9-11 is suffering from an “intelligence failure”. The military, government, and military owned US media has had them before…they will have them again.
We should see if we can get Mark to start a “Dayna the No-Playna” thread for us.
So I went away for 6 months. Posted nothing. In one afternoon I wrote 10 correspondents like I did on this site. Within hours….every single person who posted before IMMEDIATELY posted again! Even though 6 months elapsed?!!!! These poor pathetic military losers are sitting around at their terminals WAITING for me to come back and post. “Robert” doesnt even run this site?!!!
There were no commercial plane crashes on 9-11. Have you verified any debris yet? Just read a story in which the NTSB concluded its investigation of a crash EVEN THOUGH they later found that a crime had been committed. You trolls are going to have to come up with something other than “criminality” kept the NTSB away from 9-11 excuse.
Verified any debris yet robert? Its been 9 years?
The FBI uses polygraphs to eliminate suspects.
Google “Quadri-Track ZCT”
I see there’s been a helicopter crash which maybe conveniently has killed the team of navy seals who reputedly killed Bin Laden. If I was a conspiracy theorist I’d be thinking, well, that’s the witnesses taken care of then. This is just too much coincidence for me.
Well, I think we can state confidently that there were no commercial planes involved.
There’s also extensive evidence at this point that the recent plane crash which killed the Polish President was no accident.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/02/deadly-polish-plane-crash-still-mired-in-mystery.html
9/11 was an inside job.There were no planes.The videos were fake.Watch 911 Taboo,September Clues and other truth classics.
Move along. Nothing to see here.
Follow the money.
I find it entertaining that the no-planer bot (which I’m sure is a real person, not a bot, and also not an American person) wants us to believe that because WMDs were a lie, it’s easy to imagine that all of the “plane” (no-plane) attacks were a lie, also.
Except that long before we learned there were no WMDs in Iraq, I knew there were no WMDs in Iraq. That was ridiculously transparent from the get-go. Only people who worshipped GWB (because he’s such a good Christian man unlike that terrible Bill Clinton, dontcha know!) believed it — people who trusted GWB already, or people who felt they had to trust our government because after all, General Powell said there were WMDs, and we all know how trustworthy generals are.
But the massive scope of what you allege when you say there were “no commercial planes on 9/11” is so enormous that I am going to have to fall back on Occam’s Razor and remind everyone that the simplest explanation is the most likely. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras…
That doesn’t mean there couldn’t have been smaller conspiracies in and around 9/11. Perhaps our government put the 19 terrorists up to it, or maybe they knew all about a real Al Qaeda plot and stood by and watched instead of trying to stop it because it suited their purposes. Any of that is conceivable.
But that something other than 767s was manipulated to look like 767s crashing into buildings and into the Pentagon with hundreds of human witnesses to see it… nope, that’s a bridge too far / fantastical.
All those families? All those phone calls? All the videos? All fake? Come on. That doesn’t pass the laugh test.